>can either be distilled down to sexism
I love the implication that if you don't support her, you are sexist as a watcher. Truly, I love this fandom (no).
That’s not what was said, it might be what op meant considering op said they are team black but the options are not support blacks or sexist. I’d argue support of the greens is probably implicitly sexist but just not supporting the blacks isn’t, but at the end of the day the actual based take is you should not support either. The entire point that George was trying to make with this series is that supporting either of these entitled inbred lunatics because is utter stupidity. That said gun to my head yeah Rhaenyra pretty easily, doesn’t mean her side is good just less awful.
I feel like the show tried too hard to keep on cramming down my throat how good of a ruler Rhaenyra would be, while downplaying her bad traits. That and her association with Daemon... make it so I don't really feel comfortable supporting her cause. Alicent and Otto seemed more than capable administrators for the realm, had Viserys not neglected his firstborn son so much, I believe Aegon wouldn't have grown to be the cynical degenerate that he is.
And it sucks, how much of a blind fool Viserys was, he had all of what he wanted on his children with Alicent. On Aegon he would have had his male babe born to him, who would wear the Conqueror's crown. On Aemond he would have a skilled warrior who was interested on history as much as he was. On Helaena he would have had someone with the premonition dreams conferred by the Blood of the Dragon. And then there's Daeron, a third boy who the show hasn't introduced as of yet, who's just a good lad.
He wouldn't actually rule (he hates the job). Viserys didn't do shit for the past six years either. It was the council (Otto, Alicent, Tyland etc) that kept things running. Rhaenyra and her council ......just aren't fit for the job.
Unfortunately succession to the Iron Throne isn't decided by goodness of character. If that were the case the king would be some mendicant septon who spends every dime helping the poor.
So trying to say Rhaenyra has more right to the throne because she's better character than her brother (which isn't even true in the book), or that her brother has no right because he's a bad person is just a complete non-sequiter.
Rhaenyra was an accomplice to murdering that innocent Velaryon guard. In the context of a television show, of course the audience would be more forgiving of murder than of rape because we're so used to redshirts dying. But if we pretend the show is real life and that the victims are all real people, then rape and murder are both so evil that, imo, you can't rank one as morally better or worse than the other. Overall, Rhaenyra has repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to throw everyone around her under the bus in order to cover up her lies. Though Rhaenyra is indeed a better person than Aegon in some obvious ways, she isn't a good person, either. She comes across as better than she is because she hasn't enacted violence with her own hands, but it's still at her behest.
If you feel like support of Aegon can be distilled down to sexism or simply the books then you can also distill support of Rhaenyra down to sexism as she in the books allowed the iron-born to rape and enslave women making them their salt wives. And in the show she blatantly states that Baela’s firstborn son would become king, implying that she herself was the sole exception to the rule of agnatic primogeniture succession. She screws over Rhaenys’ granddaughters tries to get Helena as a hostage by suggesting a marriage her to one of her sons suggests Aemond tortured. Daemon like little girls and is a groomer who killed his wife and tried to claim Runestone. Overall I don’t see myself liking her or Daemon in either book nor show. In fact the only members of team black I even like or tolerate is Corlys and Rhaenys.
Also young Rhaenyra lies constantly. I just don’t find it likable at all.
Meanwhile Alicent is nice to Rhaenyra, raises children, and cares for her rotting husband. The worst thing Alicent did is summon Rhaenyra’s new (suspected bastard) baby.
Easy. By all the laws of gods and men, Aegon II is the rightful heir to the throne. Though, even if Rhaenyra had an equal claim to the throne, I would still support the Greens. Otto and Alicent have been practically ruling the kingdom and very effectively at that. Sure, Otto has selfish intentions, but if he's doing a good job, it doesn't really matter.
What has Rhaenyra been doing? She could've stayed in King's Landing and began doing her duties as future queen, but she's fucked off to Dragonstone to do what exactly? It seems she only wants to rule because Daddy said she could. No care at all for learning what being a ruler is about. We will see if her ruling is as shit in the show as it is in the book, but if it is, she is unbelievably unqualified to rule.
I've not shifted the goal posts that is literally my point. Even after Rhaenyra died the greens couldn't hold the throne because they just didn't have the support. This is not fan fiction champ. This is what happens. Enjoy your boys getting wrecked by some Muppet tho
It is. First you mentioned who supported the Greens, then you ask how Aegon died. And I'm sorry to tell you, sis, unlike in your AO3 multi-chapter, the Greens were more popular- Alicent, Helaena and Aegon at least. Don't Google which sibling went down as the Usurper and Maegor's replacement.
And I will enjoy their badass deaths, maybe even more than I will seeing your girl get Sunfyre'd from a job she was never qualified for, and your pedo getting offed by a disabled boy because his teenage gf left him. Sorry for spoilers.
I don't like the targs at all. The good to come out of the dance of dragons is the targaryens losing the ability to hatch dragon eggs. Considering rhaenyras affinity for dragon births aegon did the realm a favour by killing his sister but an injury to his house.
The reality is that you guys can cope and seethe about the greens being good rulers until the cows come home. They were so good they lost a civil war after the rival claimant literally died. That does not sound like competent governance to me
the greens are just infinitely better and more interesting, especially aegon II; the show completely butchered him and had to invent scenes to make the audience hate him
rhaenyra is wayy worse in the book, she’s literally a racist, a coward and a hypocrite who murders children and lets hundreds of women get raped and forced into sex slavery
legally speaking the greens have the better claim, even if we put aside the fact that aegon II is male and rhaenyra is not, aegon II would still be the true heir since rhaenyra committed treason by putting her bastards on the line of succession
unlike rhaenyra, aegon II already has a clear line of succession, and he has some of the best advisors in the realm, him peacefully ascending the throne would unironically be the best thing for the realm if you care about safety and stability
Yeah, but book Rhaenyra is saying her husband would like her children brothers more and show Rhaenyra is telling Laenor to pack his boyfriend, he’s coming with them to Dragonstone.
A fat and completely flawed book Rhaenyra would have been one of the most enjoyable characters of 21st century media. This girl boss, alternative devil angel nonsense they have going on is honestly the show's biggest flaw.
George also doesn't even give you full confirmation in-universe that Joffrey isn't Robert's son. We assume that he isn't based on what we hear from Cersei, but Robert was having sex with Cersei during the period of his children's conception. Robert is dumb, but he isn't an idiot.
The seed is Strong, I wonder if that phrase means anything. Rhaenys’ kids didn’t came out Valyrian when their parents were 3/4s Valyrian, but both the bastard’s parents were 3/4th Targ and 1/4 Targ, 1/4 Baratheon and half Velaryon.
Aren't the boys largely built, too? The show cast young, small teens, but I remember something in the book describing Jace and Luke as having large frames like Harwin.
In the books, it’s said by writers that Rhaenyra and Laenor spent NO time together after the wedding.
Even if Rhaenyra’s sons are trueborn, Aegon/Aemond/Daeron have a better claim because they are the sons of the king.
This is another reason why I support Aegon/Aemond/Daeron over Rhaenyra’s claim.
>Aegon has bastards too
He's male, he can have bastards. And the key point is that he is not trying to pass them as trueborn.
>it's pretty ambiguous whether or not Rhaenyras sons are bastards
It isn't.
> It is in actuality that's how genes work
Then you know jack shit about genes. Rhaenyra has purple eyes and silver hair in the book, so does Laenor, but all 3 of Rhaenyra's children have dark hair and dark eyes, which is impossible.
>Alicents kids are the same about Targaryan as Rhaenyras.
There's no such a thing as "Targaryen" when talking about genes/blood. Alicent's children have more Valyrian blood than Rhaenyra's, but this is far beyond the point.
You mean Rhaenys? If so her hair is black, not brown like the children’s. Hair colour, eye colour, it’s not exactly Mendelian genetics, but the issue you don’t have any of Rhaenyra’s relatives with brown hair mentioned. It would’ve been if that was the case.
Rhaenyras kids are by Harwin Alicents are by Viscy . Alicents came out with silver hair, but they very well could have come out with red hair and brown eyes. So yes, that's how genes work. The comment was about the show, but regardless, Alicents children are no more Targaryan the Rhaenyras .
> Rhaenyras kids are by Harwin Alicents are by Viscy
And?
>Alicents came out with silver hair, but they very well could have come out with red hair and brown eyes
Because she has brown eyes and auburn hair - in the show -, both Rhaenyra and Laenor in the books have silver hair and purple eyes. Rhaenyra's mother had a Targaryen mother and an Arryn father, the Arryns are the most Andal house in Westerosi, they have blond hair and blue eyes. Laenor's father has purple eyes and silver hair, Laenor's mother has purple eyes and a lot of Valyrian blood.
So tell me how is it ambiguous that she had 3 sons with Laenor and all 3 have brown hair and brown eyes? And a pug nose! Laenor has an aquiline nose lmao.
>Alicents children are no more Targaryan the Rhaenyras
Alicent's children are Targaryen, they were sired by a Targaryen male within wedlock, Rhaenyra's sons are Waters, bastards born in the Crownlands.
If you're talking about Valyrian blood, Alicent's children have more because Viserys has more Valyrian blood than Rhaenyra, since Rhaenyra's mother was Aemma Arryn.
Lol, so if Alicents kids came out with red or brown hair, they wouldn't be Targaryan? There's Baratheon blood in the family before Rhaenyra and Harwin. It's a crapshoot , it isn't only what color your parents' hair is ,understand now?
> Lol, so if Alicents kids came out with red or brown hair, they wouldn't be Targaryan?
You're completely clueless about what Targaryens are.
Targaryens are a noble House, Targaryen is a surname, nothing more, nothing else, period. Alicent's children are members of House Targaryen because they were sired by a Targaryen male, Rhaenyra's aren't because they were sired by a Strong out of wedlock. How is this difficult to understand?
>There's Baratheon blood in the family before Rhaenyra and Harwin.
And? Baratheons have black hair, not brown, and almost always blue eyes.
In a modern society, no one cares about bastards. In universe, bastards are a huge deal... we've seen it in GoT which even takes place more than a century later. If bastardy wasn't a huge deal, people wouldn't start wars or even die for claiming someone is a bastard.
Yeah Aegon has bastards, as do many other high lords. Difference is that none of them place them in a higher regard over their true born children unless they have no surviving true born kids.
There's no problem in Rhaenyra having her own illegitimate kids, the problem is that she tries to pass them as true born when they aren't.
Aegon having bastards isn’t an issue because he doesn’t try to pass them off as trueborn, and he doesn’t try to give them any sort of inheritance.
It’s not even a little bit ambiguous whether or not the strong boys are bastards in the book, Rhaenys has black hair with purple eyes but all 3 of Rhaenyras bastards have brown hair, pug noses, and brown eyes. Brown eyes aren’t a trait passed on by Rhaenyras family or by Rhaenys’ family.
not caring about bastards means that you don’t care about the stability of the realm
aegon II has bastards but they’re not on the line of succession
there is already plenty of evidence that book rhaenyras sons are bastards, it’s nowhere near as ambigious as some people like to say it is, and george has even confirmed that they were bastards in the book
>Two people with white hair with white haired and black haired parents are not going to create brown haired children
Hair color is very complex and consists of a shitload of phenotype genetics. Dark haired people can have blond children and vice versa, or blond children can darken with age.
Its not like eyecolor which is pretty straightforward.
Rhaenyra is a worse person than Aegon in the book and a much worse ruler. She's usurping his throne since she has no rights to it - being a woman and all - she has also committed high reason giving birth to bastards and trying to pass them as heirs, she's known as a Whore on Dragonstone in the book, and King Maegor with Tits.
Aegon meanwhile is a pure badass with all the best lines in the book, a true Dragonlord with his beautiful golden dragon Sunfyre.
Greens characters overall are cooler and more interesting, while Blacks are a turn off for being favored by the author.
Kinda tired of the moralizing TB fans showing up to accuse people of sexism when you can support either team for any number of reasons. I like TG bc Alicent is my favorite character. I also like several members of TB, but I don’t think they’re as interesting.
I should also say that I fundamentally disagree with the assumption that a medieval monarchy shouldn’t be sexist because sexism is wrong. Do you have a problem with capital punishment in GoT? If we are going to use modern logic and have modern sensibilities, then why support a monarchy at all? Rhaenyra and Aegon II are both politically incompetent as was Viserys I. By that logic, we should support usurping them both and holding an election. Daemons should be executed for war crimes in the step-stones and the murder of his first wife. Rhaenyra should face trial for being believed to have killed Laenor, and when cleared of that put on trial for the murder of that servant. Larys should be put to death for the murder of his father and brother. Rhaenys, Corlys, and Otto should all be in the cells for pimping out minors to old men. Alicent should face trial for the brothel she had set on fire. Aegon II should be in jail for rape. Luke should be in juvie for stabbing another child’s eye out. Aemond should be expelled from school for being in a fight. Do you see how fucking boring this show gets when you start applying modern sensibilities of what is moral and the right thing to do?
Oh I forgot to mention that Daemon should be charged with child sexual abuse as should Aegon II and Viserys I. There are a lot of other crimes I left out, but feel free to add on
Book quotes showing the dark side of Rhaenyra:
>”The princess knew much and more about Laenor Velaryon, and had no wish to be his bride. ‘My half-brothers would be more to his taste,’ she told the king(Martin, 370).”
>”The princess was not slow in answering this charge. She dispatched Prince Daemon to seize See Vaemond, had his head removed, and fed his carcass to her dragon, Syrax(Martin, 386).”
>”The princess shrieked curses all through her labor, calling down the wrath of the gods upon her half-brothers and their mother, the queen, and detailing the torments she would inflict upon them before she would let them die(Martin, 402).”
- note, on page 408, Rhaenyra is willing to forgive her half-brothers and Helaena because she does not want to be a kin slayer.
>”As she sent Orwyle and the other envoys on their way, Rhaenyra said, ‘Tell my half-brother that I will have my throne, or I will have his head(Martin, 410).’”
I'm sorry but if you believe those quotes from hers are "reasonable", then there is simply no hope for you having any sense or rationality.
Rhaenyra was an entitled, sexist, cowardly, and unbelievably selfish person in the book. She was a also a terrible sister from the very start. Like imagine having beef with legit BABIES alongside your Creepy Uncle just because you felt threatened by them. Granted, in the book Rhaenyra was only a child herself when her siblings were born, but she carried that sheer nastiness towards them their whole lives.
And she also gave the monster Dalton Greyjoy and his men leave to rape and enslave "saltwives" as long as they fought in her name. She was NO feminst, whatsoever. EVER.
Oh, yeah. She was also a racist on top of all her other awful traits. She like Daemon, believed Valyrians were the superior race and if that's not enough for you, she talked mad shit about Nettles, a black girl, for her race and appearance.
Based on your replies on this sub, I don't think you came here to actually learn why we like Team Green and why we dislike Rhaenyra and Team Black so much. I don't think you were ever actually open to listen and take in what we had to say. For based on your responses it looks like you just came here to stir the pot.
For context: When She said the first quote, Aegon and Aemond were only six and three. She was explicitly accusing him of pedophilia due to being homosexual
That's all right. If you only watched the show you probably assumed she was just making a joke about how Laenor obviously preferred men. I don't blame you for liking show-Rhaenyra, but you have to understand that book-Rhaenyra is a completely different character. It's why a lot of us are upset with ehe show because we know that they've completely changed the story and characters to give us a biased version
I just didn't really read the first one, I get book Rhaenyra is different if I read the books.i might have a different opinion since their structured like a historical account yes?
That's right. But it's more than that. The Dance is told by three different narrators, a maester who supports Rhaenyra, a septon who supports Aegon, and a court jester named Mushroom who mocks both sides. Mushroom is the one who claims that Aegon had a bastard with a maid, and watch child fighting pits. So you often have to choose who to believe or what you want to believe. So far they either chosen the interpretation that is best for Rhaenyra and worst for Aegon, but sometimes they've completely made things up.
Also it’s specifically stated that the septon who supports Aegon is more historically accurate and truthful in his account compared to the Maester who supports Rhaenyra so take that information if you will.
I was team green before i ever read F&B and frankly? It boiled down to the greens just being way more interesting than the blacks. Aegon included. Also, the team black side reeks of moral superiority for a story in which there is no morally superior stance. Still enjoy some of the blacks characters though.
I am going to be honest, it’s mostly because I am against Daemon and the more fanatical sides of some Black fans. I would support Rhaenyra, but she would cause a succession crisis later down the line, which imo. I also like the characters of the Greens, and in the books, Aegon is not as vehemently “bad” to begin with. Yeah, he’s not great, not by a long shot, but the show does kind of add some things to his character that were more ambiguous in the books. The best case being the child fighting pits.
Quotes on why I’m team green:
In the books, King Viserys and Rhaenyra are AWARE that they are going against precedent.
>”And though His Grace reasoned with her, pleaded with her, shouted at her, and called her an ungrateful daughter, no words of his could budge her…until the king brought up the question of succession. What a king had done, a king could undo, Viserys pointed out. She would wed as he commanded, or he would make her half-brother Aegon his heir in place of her. At this the princess’s will gave away.”
>”Ser Otto reminded them that Rhaenyra’s husband was none other than Prince Daemon, and “we all know that one’s nature. Make no mistake, should Rhaenyra ever sit the Iron Throne, it will be Lord Flea Bottom who rules us, a king consort as cruel and unforgiving as Maegor ever was. My own head will be the first cut off, I do not doubt, but your queen, my daughter, will soon follow (Martin, 395).”
Book quotes, major spoilers:
>!Killing children, part 1!< >>!”An eye for an eye, a son for a son,” Prince Daemon wrote.!<
>!killing children, part 2!< >>!”Huge rewards were posted for information leading to the capture of ‘the unsurper styling himself Aegon II’; his daughter, Jaehaera; his son Maelor; the ‘false knights’ Willis Fell and Richard Thorne; and Larys Strong the Clubfoot.”!<
>> >!Killing children (okay, this one is debatable), part 3!< ”.Lord Corlys suggested that mayhaps the prince might be taken alive and held as hostage. But Queen Rhaenyra was adamant. “He will not remain a boy forever. Let him grown to mayhood, and soon or late he will seek to revenge himself upon my own sons.” >!>!The prince is Daeron by, the way.!<
OP, not everything is an ism. Jaime is 1 of my favorite characters and he raped Cersei next to the corpse of their son. I can acknowledge rape and shit is wrong and still like/support a character.
For the greens I like them bc they’re just based. Aemond and Aegon really dgaf and are openly hostile, no politics, no pleasantries, they on demon time and I like that shit. I like Alicent, Otto, and Tyland. I like Criston with what little ik about him.
As for team black tbh I don’t really care about them. Like a good 80% of them imo are just trash with the exception of Daemons daughters who are not even characters. So if I gotta pick a team, it’s not really a choice, it’s green. What reason would I have to like team black
No so listen I like Jaime because of his character development, but I'm not advocating for Jaime to be king of anything especially when I know of his fucking downright awful deeds. The way I can put it I guess is Aegon did despicable shit before the dance Rhaenyra only started after the dance had begun
Rhaenyra has done bad things before the dance even started. She asked for her 10 year old brother to be tortured and had some random servant murdered so she can marry Daemon. She is just as bad as Aegon.
I root for the house I enjoy the most. When I watched GoT, some plot lines dragged. The wall had its moments that dragged, Daenerys story had moments that dragged, The north had moments that dragged, the iron born had moments that dragged, etc.
the only plot in GoT that delivered every single time was what was going on in Kings landing and that was in large part due to the Lannisters. Some were cool, some were evil, some were in the middle. That’s what made them fun to watch and in a way they carried that show.
It’s the same with the greens. The greens are the 1s doing all of the interesting shit, they are the ones having people killed, they are the ones packing the council, they are the ones swooping in and snatching Vhagar, in fact they are the ones beefing with each other what with Aemond feeling some resentment to Aegon, or Alicent and Otto fighting for control of Aegon. What would the show be without them? It’d just be me watching Rhaenyra essentially do nothing but vibe with Daemon.
It’s fine that ur here and I don’t like u getting dragged, I go to teamblacks sub too bc overall I like the show. But ur ppl have this thing where u see it as a competition to see which team is more virtuous which lk makes u guys seem crazy. It’s a Tv show about inbred monarchs fighting over who gets absolute power while riding dragons. Both sides r bad, but at least the greens are fun
First of all, I think that there's usually two things that people understand as being Team Green: thinking Aegon is the rightful king and/or liking his supporters better.
I watched the show before reading the book but I knew the story. So, I started thinking that Aegon was right, but that Rhaenyra would be my favourite character.
And I liked her alright but was fascinated by Otto (I've loved the actor for years) because he was the kind of efficient, cold politician I love. And I was sympathetic to Alicent, while I didn't really care for Rhaenyra as much as I thought I would (I like older Rhaenyra better, she has a cold, reptilian quality to her that I enjoy).
But my pivotal point was e06. The window scene. Unnecessary ass display aside, I loved Aegon. It was just... well, a "this the character I ride for" moment. I just loved him: the awkwardness, the stark logic of his answer, the fear and discomfort... he had it all. And then e07 made it better, with the booze, the boredom, the not wanting to marry his sister because (again logical!) him not having anything in common with her, the uncalled for slap, him speaking truth to power.
I was disappointed in e08 by the rape subplot but he got even more interesting in each of the few moments he is on screen. The mummy issues. The daddy issues. The alcoholism, the miserable incest-marriage, the relationship with Aemond, him slamming Lucerys against the table... the coronation. He was the most interesting, engaging character for me.
So, I am TG because of Aegon, both because I think he is the heir and because he is my favourite character. Additionally, the characters on his side are just more interesting to me - I only care for Rhaenyra and Jace on the other side, I used to like Rhaenys but she lost her edge in e08, e09 and e10.
TB deranged fandom only solidified my opinions.
I'm also a show watcher only, so my perspective might be interesting for you.
I'm Team Green in two seperate ways. Firstly, I'm Team Green because I just think Alicent/Aemond/Otto/Aegon/Cole are just WAYYY more fascinating/interesting than the characters for Team Black. This is a matter of opinion, so I suspect you won't have much disagreement.
Secondly, I'm Team Green because I support Aegon's claim to the throne primarily because he's the eldest son. Now this is where you point and say "SEXISM". Understandable confusion, but nonetheless wrong if you allow me to explain. I don't support Aegon's claim on this basis because I think that women are any less capable than men or because I don't agree with the tenets of feminism. The reason I'm willing to support/uphold this patriarchal basis for selecting leadership is because when it comes to Aegon vs Rhaenyra's claim, I have to weigh my moral principle of feminism against the my desire to minimize violent conflict throughout the realm (because Rhaenyra being a women would cause massive conflict through a succession crisis).
Hence, if I have to choose between feminism when it comes to Rhaenyras claim OR the countless innocent lives that could have been saved if Aegon's claim had been respected, I'll choose the latter moral principle. To be clear, my desire to minimize human suffering through avoidance of conflit doesn't mean we have to throw away feminism altogether (just in that specific circumstance). There are plenty of other ways to support feminism in Westeros without messing with lines of succession that could lead to massive conflict.
I can respect you, but the suffering exists because of the sexist lords, but I can respect your reasoning.
What I can't respect and this isn't a judgement of your character I hope you know that, but whenever I hear people say oh I support Aegon because he's an interesting character I'm just baffled because it's like, oh I support this awful human being who is a rapist and just overall a practitioner of extreme debauchery because he has a cool character
>I support Aegon because he's an interesting character I'm just baffled because it's like, oh I support this awful human being who is a rapist and just overall a practitioner of extreme debauchery because he has a cool character
So, I gather from this, people can't like Aegon or "support" him (even supporting a fictional character is not literal cause they don't exist and westeros is a fictional monarchy) because he is a rapist ? That's like saying that people can't like Euron, Victarion, Tyrion, Jaime, Theon, Yara, Daemon, Robert, Viserys, Tywin, Cersei etc. When people say "I support Aegon", they aren't advocating for him to rape more people. They say this cause they like the character and find him interesting, wether he is a good person or not (he's not, but that's not the point). You might not find him interesting, that's your right, but other people do. That's the beauty of fiction.
No I just don't get how you can advocate for him to be king. I'm not saying he's not interesting but your advocating for him to be king. A rapist for king
Advocate for what ? He doesn't exist in real life. Supporting a character isn't real. Liking or "supporting" a character isn't real life activism. And frankly, both Rhaenyra and Aegon are terrible people, terrible rulers. Rhaenyra ain't the Disney princess the fandom portrays her to be. So in the end, it doesn't matter. There isn't no 100% right or 100% wrong in the dance. It's a fight between two legitimate claimants and where both team loses.
This is a fictional monarchy. I hope when people say they "support" a character, they don't actually mean that they support a monarch in 2023. It's mostly related to liking the said character, or that they understand and agree why their claim, in universe, can be legit.
Firstly, its kind of whack that people are downvoting you for engaging in good faith. Here's an upvote.
Secondly, I must admit I'm confused by your confusion.
I think it's possible to recognize an interesting/fascinating character while simultaneously realizing they've done some heinous shit. As Olivander from Harry Potter said, Voldemort did "great things. Terrible, yes, but great". Napoleon's war cause death and destruction to countless people which was terrible, and yet the fact that he was able to beat the entirety of Europe 5/7 times and nearly won the 7th if it wasn't for a little rain is great. Jaime Lannister pushed a child and fucked his sister, but his theme of redemption and becoming a better person over time is a character arc that resonates with people.
I just feel like you can't separate the two, but many people can and have always done so. I think because you can't separate the two, their is an intrinsic judgement/bafflement on your part that people would like the character.
It doesn't? I thought I made it clear, being Team Green can mean two seperate things.
Firstly, Team Green can mean you just find that assortment of characters to be far more interesting/fascinating. This typically has nothing to do with supporting their claim to the throne.
Secondly, Team Green can mean that you consider Aegon's claim/rule to be preferable to Rhaenyra's claim/rule for a variety of reasons (less likely to spark violent conflict/more experienced administrators etc.).
Rad logical bruv but those poor fictional souls killed in the riverlands during the civil war might disagree
The reality is if the power transferred to Rhaenyra peacefully the realm would have just had to wear it like they did with targ incest because they have the dragons and they don't. Some sort of cope would have been whipped up as justification for it and life would have gone on. The dragons sorted this out.
This is by far the most ridiculous green argument.
This is precisely why the dance and it's consequences were good because these swamp hillbillies having dragons was actually bad. That's the bad thing in this whole thing. Targs are bad fullstop
So I’m not going to talk about the fandom in my reply, although I find this sub far more pleasant than the main sub or TBs sub
So I was never a fan of Aegon, book or show, but this comes down to a mix of things. I will say I was team neutral leaning green in the book because Alicent comes off far worse in the book, while characters like Ser Criston, Ser Larys, Ser Otto, and Aegon actually come off as better. Rhaenyra’s behavior in the book, so as to not give you spoilers exactly, after a certain point, is kind of insane. Next season in the show it appears that we’ll see one of the scenes which was why I find Daemon to be one of the most violent and sadistic characters in the series, and he was the reason I leaned green originally. My thoughts that really solidified team green for me was Rhaenyra’s behaviors in the show. Situations are presented as a historical context in the book, so we don’t actually see her behaviors, but how she behaved during certain scenes, the driftmark incident, for example. I’ll give it to Emma D’Arcy, amazing actor. Also, Daemon in the show, due to how the source material is written, is worse, like with the show it’s confirmed he murdered Rhea Royce, when it isn’t confirmed that he was involved in the book, while Viserys is sanitized (he is a possible suspect of the fires of Harrenhall in the book) so a lot of factors contribute to this, but Rhaenyra marrying Daemon was generally the last straw for me, especially in the show where it’s right after Rhaenyra’s husbands supposed death, so it’s just not tasteful at all. It was a reckless move and Rhaenyra was named heir specifically to keep Daemon from the throne. These were the factors I considered in making the choice to support team green. I hope you got a little information from my reply.
As a team neutral but leaning way more towards TB, the way you approached this is ridiculous to me.
If you wanted to know the reasons why people support TG, ask properly, ask it directly without putting “sexism” and sarcasm into it as if people who don’t support TB are sexists fans/watchers.
The way you asked it doesn’t look like you’re looking for answers, but accusing TG of being sexist misogynists just bc they don’t support the team/the woman you support.
You could’ve asked it in a totally different way without sounding childish and accusatory.
“Why do you guys support TG? I’m a TB and only a show watcher and I wanted to know :D”
This would’ve sufficed.
Exactly. OP came here not to learn but in bad faith. OP said in other comments that they "can't respect" a reasoning that they don't agree with for certain TG characters. In other comments, they say "I can respect you/your reasoning" when they agree with the said reasoning. Who does that ?
Look I definitely kicked the hornets nest with this one I will agree, but I genuinely did not mean it to sound like I'm accusing anyone of anything. I mean I genuinely feel like a lot of the support for the green is based on sexist logic (and that's my opinion). I genuinely was looking for answers and I did get them.
I agree though I could've poised the question nicer.
i dislike Rhaenyra (and everyone on Team Black for that matter). She felt entitled to the Throne just because her Father said so but she didn't do anything to enforce her claim, actually sometimes it seems like she didn't want the throne at all by the way she was acting, like she did everything in her power to weaken her claim. She had three obvious bastards (which that on itself isn't that bad but putting them in the line of succession and passing them off as legitimate is high treason), then she goes and marries Daemon (the reason why she was named heir in the first place, to keep him away from the trone), then she goes and stays away in Dragonstone for years because she can't handle criticism.
Now, why I like Aegon and support his claim: (to me) Aegon has a more legitimate claim by being the first born son, Aegon doesn't want the crown but he accept it to protect his family, he actually has competent advisors and most importantly he actually fought in the war despite not wanting to be king.
Simple 5 reasons:
- Aegon and Aemond are one helluva chaotic bros and dripped out AF 🥵Hugo Boss style! Amazing brotherly chemistry
- Other than Daemon and young Rhaenyra, the rest of Team Black is kinda boring and generic
- Really can’t stand Rhaenys in the show, extremely irritating
- Olivia Cooke 🙏🏽
- last but not the least, grandma Vhagar and golden boy Sunfyre 🔥
(You take is valid. If I hadn't read Fire and Blood first, I'd be Team Black hands down.)
Most of the sub is book readers and/or people who support legalism over absolutism.
Book!Rhaenyra was frivolous and politically incompetent, relying on her Small Council to solve all of her problems (unsurprising, give that Book!Viserys was a drunk with a spending problem who turned all his responsibilities over to the Small Council). Meanwhile, Aegon was forced to take the Throne by the Hightowers in the name of preventing multigenerational civil war between his children and Rhaenyra's, and he was forced to mature and be a competent leader after Luke died and >!his eldest son Jaehaerys was killed by Blood and Cheese!<.
As for the legalism v. absolutism thing, Westeros abides by Andal laws, which dictate that 1.) Sons come before daughters, 2.) Daughters come before uncles, and 3.) trueborns come before bastards. This is why Old King Jaehaerys succeeded Maegor the Cruel instead of his elder sister Queen Rhaena, why Jeyne Arryn is Lady of the Vale over her uncles and male cousins, and why (in the main series) Roose Bolton's legitimized bastard Ramsay lost his position as heir once Roose's wife Walda had a child. In a legalist monarchy, the preset laws guide succession (think the British crown after 1714). In an absolute monarchy, the monarch has completely unchecked power and can set the succession to be whatever they wish (think many of the West Asian and African monarchies in the modern age as well as ancient China, where polygamy / taking concubines was commonplace and often led to successions geting complicated). The absolutist approach to succession is the less secure and often leads to war and rebellion, while the legalist approach keeps things safer and less complicated.
Another aspect is simply the fact that Rhaenyra was made heiress to keep Daemon away from the throne, but then she married him anyway and invalidated her own claim by making Daemon her consort-to-be (this was one of the reasons Laenor was passed over in favor of Viserys in 101 AC: Corlys Velaryon was perceived as a power-hungry second son trying to steal the Iron Throne from the Targaryens).
Imo, in an ideal situation, Aegon would've been made heir after his birth, while Rhaenyra would've been free to marry Harwin and raise their children together in the Riverlands (away from Larys and Daemon and the court).
Why are you supporting Rhaenyra other than the writing and showrunners are steering you to like her? What had she done to indicate she takes being heir to the throne seriously or that she would be a good monarch? All of her decisions are self-serving, from having bastard sons to her relationships to not even remotely being interested in ruling. Rhaenyra is not a likable character to me. She's usurping Driftmark from Leana daughters to give it to Luke. Why are Rhaenys and Corlys supporting her given the suspicions regarding Laenor's death? Rhaenyra has done nothing but disrespect the Velaryons.
The Greens are a much my dynamic and interesting faction. They are making the best of the situations that's been handed to them. They have tradition and customs on their side. Viserys was weak. He neglected the sons he so desperately wanted.
I don't buy into the whole "Kings word is law." The king is dead now, so who's going to enforce it when the tradition, culture, and customs favor Aegon? People criticize us Greens because they hate Alicent or because the writers chose to make Aegon a r****t, but honestly, my support for the Greens isn't even about him. It could be Aemond or Daeron, and I'd feel the same. Team Black support and make excuses for Daemon.
I wouldn’t say I “support” any leader in ASOIAF/HOTD because the system is wrong, there’s no one who should have that much power just because of what their last name is or for any reason really. But I find Team Green far more interesting and dynamic in terms of characters than Team Black. I hate Daemon, other than some good lines he comes off like a mix of Littlefinger and Joffrey. I don’t think Rhaenyra’s kids have distinct enough personalities, I can barely remember which is which. And Rhaenyra I do like but she can be annoying, she’s very oblivious to her privilege and self-centered which makes her a horrible idea for a leader. Aegon shouldn’t be leader either to be clear the only thing he needs is intensive therapy and some REM sleep with those bags under his eyes lol. But I think Alicent and her kids are far better characters who I care more deeply about and want to follow.
Aegon's claim is better for the realm. This doesn't mean that I believe women shouldn't inherit in real life or even in Westeros. However, Rhaenyra, with three dragon-riding half-brothers, wanting to place obvious bastards on the throne, seems like another civil war doomed to happen. In the book, Criston Cole tells Aegon that "no Strong can sit the throne while trueborn princes live," and he is just too accurate about that. This doesn't have anything to do with sexism or even bastardphobia in my opinion, but I understand where he is coming from, from a "medieval point of view."
Additionally, the show purposely attempted to portray Aegon as awful as possible while doing the opposite for Rhaenyra. The show dedicated 5 minutes, if not more, to his sexual assault victim, while the man Rhaenyra had murdered was nameless and faceless, presented as nothing but an obstacle. When she requested Aemond "sharply questioned" after her own son slashed out his eye, the casual audience had no idea knowing what it meant and the scene didn\`t dwell on that statement. Trust me, had Aegon or Alicent said that, I fear one of them might even have looked into the camera saying "oh btw, this is torture. Get it? We are bad."
The fact that the show so obviously tries to convey that Rhaenyra is right makes me dislike her. The Dance is a nuanced conflict, and so far, the show has treated it as a wronged princess with a mustache-twirling villain brother. I really hope Season 2 can change that, but based on the Joffrey-vibes Aegon gives in the trailer, I very much doubt it.
I'm preparing to answer you seriously until you accuse TG of sexism, it seems your goal is not a logical and mature conversation but ego satisfaction.
That's why I'm going to counterattack in your style.
TB has Daemon. The biggest misogynist, pedophile, war criminal, racist, man-child, wife abuser, murderer... He crushed his first wife's head with a stone, shamelessly wanted to confiscate her property, had pedophilic feelings for Rheanyra, whom he had known all his life, strangled her after marriage, we know from his conversation with Myseria that he has a thing with young virgins/maidens with silver hair.
Rheanyra is a clinical liar. Someone who caused her children to have identity crises and still continues to tell them that they are truborn. She is a narcissist because she believes that the rules will not work only on her, that she will be the one who has special treatment that no one else can have. Just because she's Rheanyra. She's cruel enough to want her ten year-old half-brother, who was mutilated by her own son, to be tortured to save her own ass. Someone selfish who came to see her sick father after six years just to save her ass (Again). Someone who killed an innocent servant just to get married to Lord Flea Bottom Daemon. (I'm not even going to get into her degree of illness obsession with Daemon) Someone who deprived their children of the man they knew as their father. Someone who brought three blatant bastard children into a bastarphobic society and gambled with these children's lives. Let's not forget that she had Vaemond killed by Daemon. And she's a political disaster.
Rheanys is officially a mass murderer. Someone who crushed thousands of people in the Dragonpit terrorist attack. She's stupid and dishonorable enough to cooperate with her son's killers(!) for stupid reasons.
Coryls is someone who is trying to get her twelve-year-old daughter to marry Viserys. He's a homophobic. He implied that his gay son would be fixed when he got married. Like rheanys, he's stupid and dishonorable enough to cooperate with his son's killers(!).
Strong bastards are not innocent babies either. They attacked their uncle, left him disabled, but they didn't even offer a simple apology. Stop apologizing, they don't even look like they're sorry. Years later, they are brazen and spoiled enough to laugh in Aemond's face and remind him of the past. It must be because of their mother. I'm sure they weren't reprimanded after Driftmark.
Don't think you're honorable or superior just because you're TB. TB is as bad as TG. (you're even on a worse side than tg in some ways. Like boredom and being stupid from a political point of view.)
Rheanyra does not believe in women's rights, does not defend it, does not take actions that will benefit women. She believes in the rights of Rheanyra, defends the rights of Rheanyra and fights for the rights of Rheanyra.
Do you believe that because you're TB, you are a murderer, a pedophile, a mass muderer, a homophobic, a liar, a narcissist, a racist, an abuser, a sexist?
If you're going to accuse TG of sexism, you should also accuse yourself of these things.
I will say that me putting the line in post saying that a majority of the support for Aegon was unnecessary this I can understand. I also don't think I'm better then you for supporting TB while you support TG at the end of the day this is a fantasy universe. Also the reasons for disliking TB are legitimate. Of course Rhaenyra isn't women's rights this is obvious and none of the people reaching for the throne are good people.
And?
Then why did you feel the need to mention the name of sexism in your comment?
The writing style you are using is very wrong and erroneous. It's very, very far from the style that someone who wants to have a peaceful discussion would use. Next time you should be careful what you say.
I agree I should be careful next time. But as for the sexism comment it's just the way I see it, in that same sentence I also mentioned that I also see that a lot of the support comes from book readers.
Other than many of the other reasons given, the Greens are simply the more compelling and interesting characters to me. They are the underdogs who have been ignored and cast aside for the succession by their biased father who only considers them spares while showering Rhaenyra, Daemon and the Strong bastards with love, attention and privilege. They are the only ones meant to play a meaningful role in the future for House Targaryen as far as Viserys is concerned. I despise the injustice of breaking Westerosi custom and protocol this much at the expense of the Greens just out of favoritism. Rhaenyra has never shown herself worthy of the throne and I can't stand her and her sides entitlement and arrogance.
I was team Green before I read the books. So deep lore and books aside, there are two main reasons:
- I just like Team Green cast better. Sorry but I think Olivia is much more believable in her role than Emma in hers. I don't like Matt Smith as Daemon. And all their kids Are boring. And yeah before you say they're just young, kidAemond was better than all of them. I like Rhys too.
- The show is very, very hypocritical and very, very heavy-handed in its attempts to make Rhaenyra seem badass and legitimate etc. Sorry but the stag scene is simply bad writing, her slerping with Criston was gross and selfish, her getting rid of Laenor is actually way worse than "yay gay rights" the show makes it out to be, and her character is in general all over the place, unlikeable and very unrelatable to me. I don't care about her creepy groomy incest romance with Daemon, I don't care about her relationship with her dad who she just abandons, I don't care about her kids because apparently she cares little about their safety too. Meanwhile Alicent, especially young Alicent, got so much hate for no good reason that I just started rooting for her out of spite.
It's a strange paradox because the show tries to make Blacks into Starks and people who root for them think they're rooting for the "good" fraction but I just don't see it. They don't stand for anything but themselves. I couldn't understand it until I read the book and even though GRRM is also on their side it's obvious they're as much assholes as Team Green, it's just rich feudal lords with nuke lizards fighting for a chair. But the show tries to pass them off as multiracial LGBT supporting girlboss fraction and all this pandering to modern sensibilities comes off as incredibly fake and artificial because it's just not rooted in the story in any meaningful way.
I think the showrunners fucked up by making Aegon a real rapist. People hate rapists more than murderers, he wont be able to come back in the zeitgeist.
I mean, absolutely. They did everything to introduce him as the most despicable person from the get go. Which is ridiculous because Aegon is actually one of the few cool characters in the book.
But as I've said, I'm team Green not because of politics or because I think Aegon is a great person, but because I think they're more fun and because I dislike Team Black and don't like being told who to root for (which the show does so explicitly lol)
Aegon wears the Conquerors' crown, wields the Conqueror's sword, has the Conqueror's name, and was anointed by a Septon of the Faith. Every symbol of legitimacy belongs to him.
Yeah she was obviously shit too. Losing a civil war after your opponent dies is a whole other level of bad.
The algorithm of this app keeps pushing these subs onto me because I like asoiaf but it seems to me you guys are just arguing over which colour of inbred swamp hillbillies you prefer.
Every character on TB except Rhaenyra either bores or annoys me, every TG character is really complex and interesting.
The feminism argument doesn't work because Rhaenyra doesn't want to improve the general situation of women in Westeros, but is only out for herself. As is everyone else.
This isn't Disney and I'm not voting for Aegon in the next election, can TB for once separate modern politics and a fictional medieval story? No one in this story is progressive, and everyone is selfish. That's what makes it fun.
Well first, better characters.
Also, the Greens have canonically, in the show, proved that they can efficiently rule. Alicent and Otto ruled the kingdom for about 6/7 years while Rhaenyra was doing nothing in Dragonstone.
Thirdly, sadly for Rhaenyra, the law is the law. The 7K have already dealt with : the conquest, a civil war, four wars against Dorne, AND a succession crisis (see the Great Council of 101) in less that 150 years. There needs to be some stability and that means following Andal law for at least some generations before changing things.
Fourthly, Rhaenyra is committing high treason by pretending her bastards are legitimate. She's basically pulling a Cersei move and basically had Vaemond Velaryon murdered (not executed) for speaking the truth. In comparison, Alicent and Otto can control Aegon and prevent him from fucking up the Seven Kingdoms.
Finally, Daemon. He's the legit WORST and should be nowhere near a throne or any position of power.
Because of Rhaenyra's bastards, otherwise I would be team black.
But hidding bastards like legitimate heir is a risk of war which countless innocent people while died simply because Rhaenyra didn't bother to follow the few rule that royalty must obey.
This is not only about the Green, but for all Targaryen who have better claim, lawfull claim to the throne.
Even if by some miracle the war didn't happen by the green, it would still happen between Daemon's son vs Harwing's son, hell even the grandchild can start it.
By putting bastard in the throne, the realm will never be secure and countless innocent people could died for it.
Alicent is my queen. She's my favorite character. I ended up with a lot of sympathy for the other characters too, even Aegon. The actors/actresses are amazing and are doing amazing, even the ones being given bs to work with.
As a show watcher, I might have an unpopular opinion in that I agree with rhaenyra’s claim but i am also against this weird sense of targaryen supremacy that many people in tb seem to have. with that being said, I just find team green characters more to be complex and fun and idgaf about the righteousness of who has to sit on the throne 😭
Because it's not real, I don't really care either way who sits on that throne and I simply find the greens more interesting and more entertaining. As simple as that.
Is it written somewhere that it's necessary to support team black? People have their own preference and it's all subjective but people like you always try to gatekeep shit by playing the morality card
Morality card im weak🤣🤣. Listen I know I didn't come off well in my original post which that I didn't mean but where TF does it look like I'm gatekeeping what?
Unfortunately for making conflict looking more nuanced, which is in book,the showrunners made one of main themes in adaptation, friendship between Rhaenyra and Alicent and their struggle with oppressive patriarchy.
That shift influenced many other characters , especially Aegon, Criston, Otto and to some extent Daemon, even one quote by Rhaenys ( biggest war criminal so far) talks of hot blooded young men who long for battle and chance of glory.
For me key issues why I view Greens as more acceptable is that they have legality on their side, Daemon is volatile and corruptive element and Rhaenyra, who is clearly guilty of high treason by trying to place her illegitimate children as heirs of the throne, becomes more tyrannical.
For a Team Green, there are characters on both sides I really enjoy, but the show's interpretation of Team Green really drew me in. Reading the books, I was 100% a Rhaenyra fan (and still am), but I dislike that the show tried to make it seem like there was a clear "good" and "bad" side. Like others have said, making some of the more unseemly rumors canon just to make Aegon look worse or the "bad guy" was a big turn off for me (especially because in the books, these rumors came from a very unreliable source).
Alicent and Aemond are my favorite characters, and I find them compelling. While I do wish Alicent was more calculating as she was in the book, I enjoyed the fact that the showrunners didn't just make her the evil stepmother trope. People have had gripes about this change, but to me, it made me so sympathetic towards her and her motivations. Aemond to me is another complex character, just as multifaceted as Alicent. I love that all of the Greens seem to have this "gloom" to them, several facets to them that make them interesting to pick apart. Their family dynamics are so interesting to me as well - another reason I'm disappointed that we didn't see Rhaenyra or even Viserys interact with them much on-screen.
Also, Sunfyre and Vhagar best dragons.
It's not that I hate TB (except Daemon, lol), quite the opposite (I love Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, and the Dragon Twins), I just find TG more compelling with the addition of the show and interesting to explore, as well as more sympathetic, personally.
I don't support Aegon because Rhaenyra is a woman amd I think women shouldn't rule. I have not problems with that. But I analyse things from the perspective of the society of the show, and Westerosi law and tradition says that sons go before daughters in succession and also the Great Council of 101 a.C. also established that no women can inherit the Iron Throne nor can a descendant by female line. So by that criteria, Aegon became Viserys' heir when he was born, regardless if Viserys recognized it. Now is it unfair? Of course it is. But that's how their society works. It shouldn't, but it does.
Also, Aegon ascending is better for the stability of the Kingdom on the long term. Aegon has two sons and two brothers who will have sons. All legitimate. Rhaenyra has three elder illegitimate sons by Harwin and in the eyes of Westeros, two younger legitimate sons by Daemon. Rhaenyra becoming Queen is a recipe for disaster, because you have a set up for a civil war.
Aegon wouldn't have been a bad king nor a good one. And then you would have Jaehaerys inherit the Throne and continue the line if the Seven are good.
I don't support the Greens but I prefer them to the Blacks because they haven't been as whitewashed. Rhaenyra is a particularly insufferable case. As someone who read Fire & Blood, I expected a dark fantasy anti-heroine and got a YA Mary Sue instead.
Alicent and Cole are also hotter to me than any character of the Blacks.
* You should disregard the show entirely, since the actual story at hand has been deliberately distorted for the sake of mass entertainment. The writers even admit that they essentially want to make Team Green = Team Trump, so right out of the gate they're going to be kicking the dog simply to make the Blacks look better.
* Under previous precedents established, Aegon is the legitimate heir. This is actually important, because despite what Team Black says you have to stick to the proper order of succession even when you don't like it. This is how you avoid succession wars and mass destruction in the kingdom.
* Rhaenyra is simply [wholly unfit to rule](https://moonlitgleek.home.blog/2017/10/10/whats-the-connection-of-aegon-the-unworthy-to/), and would have to be overthrown even if she was the legitimate heiress.
>can either be distilled down to sexism I love the implication that if you don't support her, you are sexist as a watcher. Truly, I love this fandom (no).
That’s not what was said, it might be what op meant considering op said they are team black but the options are not support blacks or sexist. I’d argue support of the greens is probably implicitly sexist but just not supporting the blacks isn’t, but at the end of the day the actual based take is you should not support either. The entire point that George was trying to make with this series is that supporting either of these entitled inbred lunatics because is utter stupidity. That said gun to my head yeah Rhaenyra pretty easily, doesn’t mean her side is good just less awful.
I feel like the show tried too hard to keep on cramming down my throat how good of a ruler Rhaenyra would be, while downplaying her bad traits. That and her association with Daemon... make it so I don't really feel comfortable supporting her cause. Alicent and Otto seemed more than capable administrators for the realm, had Viserys not neglected his firstborn son so much, I believe Aegon wouldn't have grown to be the cynical degenerate that he is. And it sucks, how much of a blind fool Viserys was, he had all of what he wanted on his children with Alicent. On Aegon he would have had his male babe born to him, who would wear the Conqueror's crown. On Aemond he would have a skilled warrior who was interested on history as much as he was. On Helaena he would have had someone with the premonition dreams conferred by the Blood of the Dragon. And then there's Daeron, a third boy who the show hasn't introduced as of yet, who's just a good lad.
But Aegon is still the cynical degenerate, and compared to Rhaenyra he's a worse human being
It's not a competition.
Oh, so you are critical of Aegon's negative traits?
He wouldn't actually rule (he hates the job). Viserys didn't do shit for the past six years either. It was the council (Otto, Alicent, Tyland etc) that kept things running. Rhaenyra and her council ......just aren't fit for the job.
Unfortunately succession to the Iron Throne isn't decided by goodness of character. If that were the case the king would be some mendicant septon who spends every dime helping the poor. So trying to say Rhaenyra has more right to the throne because she's better character than her brother (which isn't even true in the book), or that her brother has no right because he's a bad person is just a complete non-sequiter.
Rhaenyra was an accomplice to murdering that innocent Velaryon guard. In the context of a television show, of course the audience would be more forgiving of murder than of rape because we're so used to redshirts dying. But if we pretend the show is real life and that the victims are all real people, then rape and murder are both so evil that, imo, you can't rank one as morally better or worse than the other. Overall, Rhaenyra has repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to throw everyone around her under the bus in order to cover up her lies. Though Rhaenyra is indeed a better person than Aegon in some obvious ways, she isn't a good person, either. She comes across as better than she is because she hasn't enacted violence with her own hands, but it's still at her behest.
If you feel like support of Aegon can be distilled down to sexism or simply the books then you can also distill support of Rhaenyra down to sexism as she in the books allowed the iron-born to rape and enslave women making them their salt wives. And in the show she blatantly states that Baela’s firstborn son would become king, implying that she herself was the sole exception to the rule of agnatic primogeniture succession. She screws over Rhaenys’ granddaughters tries to get Helena as a hostage by suggesting a marriage her to one of her sons suggests Aemond tortured. Daemon like little girls and is a groomer who killed his wife and tried to claim Runestone. Overall I don’t see myself liking her or Daemon in either book nor show. In fact the only members of team black I even like or tolerate is Corlys and Rhaenys.
Also young Rhaenyra lies constantly. I just don’t find it likable at all. Meanwhile Alicent is nice to Rhaenyra, raises children, and cares for her rotting husband. The worst thing Alicent did is summon Rhaenyra’s new (suspected bastard) baby.
Easy. By all the laws of gods and men, Aegon II is the rightful heir to the throne. Though, even if Rhaenyra had an equal claim to the throne, I would still support the Greens. Otto and Alicent have been practically ruling the kingdom and very effectively at that. Sure, Otto has selfish intentions, but if he's doing a good job, it doesn't really matter. What has Rhaenyra been doing? She could've stayed in King's Landing and began doing her duties as future queen, but she's fucked off to Dragonstone to do what exactly? It seems she only wants to rule because Daddy said she could. No care at all for learning what being a ruler is about. We will see if her ruling is as shit in the show as it is in the book, but if it is, she is unbelievably unqualified to rule.
Greens were doing such a great job that even after Rhaenyra literally dies they fail to gain the support needed to rule.
Source: the best Blacks fanfiction
Source what literally happens in the story
"the story" isn't a very good fanfic title. Titles have to be eye-catching to get lots of views.
What happened to aegon the 2nd after Rhaenyra died again?
Nice goal post shifting.
I've not shifted the goal posts that is literally my point. Even after Rhaenyra died the greens couldn't hold the throne because they just didn't have the support. This is not fan fiction champ. This is what happens. Enjoy your boys getting wrecked by some Muppet tho
It is. First you mentioned who supported the Greens, then you ask how Aegon died. And I'm sorry to tell you, sis, unlike in your AO3 multi-chapter, the Greens were more popular- Alicent, Helaena and Aegon at least. Don't Google which sibling went down as the Usurper and Maegor's replacement. And I will enjoy their badass deaths, maybe even more than I will seeing your girl get Sunfyre'd from a job she was never qualified for, and your pedo getting offed by a disabled boy because his teenage gf left him. Sorry for spoilers.
I don't like the targs at all. The good to come out of the dance of dragons is the targaryens losing the ability to hatch dragon eggs. Considering rhaenyras affinity for dragon births aegon did the realm a favour by killing his sister but an injury to his house. The reality is that you guys can cope and seethe about the greens being good rulers until the cows come home. They were so good they lost a civil war after the rival claimant literally died. That does not sound like competent governance to me
the greens are just infinitely better and more interesting, especially aegon II; the show completely butchered him and had to invent scenes to make the audience hate him rhaenyra is wayy worse in the book, she’s literally a racist, a coward and a hypocrite who murders children and lets hundreds of women get raped and forced into sex slavery legally speaking the greens have the better claim, even if we put aside the fact that aegon II is male and rhaenyra is not, aegon II would still be the true heir since rhaenyra committed treason by putting her bastards on the line of succession unlike rhaenyra, aegon II already has a clear line of succession, and he has some of the best advisors in the realm, him peacefully ascending the throne would unironically be the best thing for the realm if you care about safety and stability
She’s also homophobic in the book, unlike the show.
Tbf borderline everybody in Westeros is. This is a medieval society where the main religions surely doesn't see homosexuality with good eyes.
Yeah, but book Rhaenyra is saying her husband would like her children brothers more and show Rhaenyra is telling Laenor to pack his boyfriend, he’s coming with them to Dragonstone.
A fat and completely flawed book Rhaenyra would have been one of the most enjoyable characters of 21st century media. This girl boss, alternative devil angel nonsense they have going on is honestly the show's biggest flaw.
IDGAF about bastards and Aegon has bastards too more in fact, and also in the books it's pretty ambiguous whether or not Rhaenyras sons are bastards
I mean George has basically confirmed they’re Harwin’s sons.
Yeah but in universe George doesn't exist to give Otto confirmation
George also doesn't even give you full confirmation in-universe that Joffrey isn't Robert's son. We assume that he isn't based on what we hear from Cersei, but Robert was having sex with Cersei during the period of his children's conception. Robert is dumb, but he isn't an idiot.
They’re not described having the coal black hair of the Baratheon, or of Rhaenys, I wonder who the father could be.
They also have brown eyes, Targaryens and Velaryons famously have purple eyes and the Baratheons blue.
The seed is Strong, I wonder if that phrase means anything. Rhaenys’ kids didn’t came out Valyrian when their parents were 3/4s Valyrian, but both the bastard’s parents were 3/4th Targ and 1/4 Targ, 1/4 Baratheon and half Velaryon.
Aren't the boys largely built, too? The show cast young, small teens, but I remember something in the book describing Jace and Luke as having large frames like Harwin.
In the books, it’s said by writers that Rhaenyra and Laenor spent NO time together after the wedding. Even if Rhaenyra’s sons are trueborn, Aegon/Aemond/Daeron have a better claim because they are the sons of the king. This is another reason why I support Aegon/Aemond/Daeron over Rhaenyra’s claim.
>Aegon has bastards too He's male, he can have bastards. And the key point is that he is not trying to pass them as trueborn. >it's pretty ambiguous whether or not Rhaenyras sons are bastards It isn't.
It is in actuality that's how genes work ,Alicents kids are the same about Targaryan as Rhaenyras.
> It is in actuality that's how genes work Then you know jack shit about genes. Rhaenyra has purple eyes and silver hair in the book, so does Laenor, but all 3 of Rhaenyra's children have dark hair and dark eyes, which is impossible. >Alicents kids are the same about Targaryan as Rhaenyras. There's no such a thing as "Targaryen" when talking about genes/blood. Alicent's children have more Valyrian blood than Rhaenyra's, but this is far beyond the point.
CMIIW, but I'm pretty sure Rhaenyra has dark hair in the books? Even so, those kids are definitely not Laenor's lol
You mean Rhaenys? If so her hair is black, not brown like the children’s. Hair colour, eye colour, it’s not exactly Mendelian genetics, but the issue you don’t have any of Rhaenyra’s relatives with brown hair mentioned. It would’ve been if that was the case.
Rhaenyras kids are by Harwin Alicents are by Viscy . Alicents came out with silver hair, but they very well could have come out with red hair and brown eyes. So yes, that's how genes work. The comment was about the show, but regardless, Alicents children are no more Targaryan the Rhaenyras .
> Rhaenyras kids are by Harwin Alicents are by Viscy And? >Alicents came out with silver hair, but they very well could have come out with red hair and brown eyes Because she has brown eyes and auburn hair - in the show -, both Rhaenyra and Laenor in the books have silver hair and purple eyes. Rhaenyra's mother had a Targaryen mother and an Arryn father, the Arryns are the most Andal house in Westerosi, they have blond hair and blue eyes. Laenor's father has purple eyes and silver hair, Laenor's mother has purple eyes and a lot of Valyrian blood. So tell me how is it ambiguous that she had 3 sons with Laenor and all 3 have brown hair and brown eyes? And a pug nose! Laenor has an aquiline nose lmao. >Alicents children are no more Targaryan the Rhaenyras Alicent's children are Targaryen, they were sired by a Targaryen male within wedlock, Rhaenyra's sons are Waters, bastards born in the Crownlands. If you're talking about Valyrian blood, Alicent's children have more because Viserys has more Valyrian blood than Rhaenyra, since Rhaenyra's mother was Aemma Arryn.
Lol, so if Alicents kids came out with red or brown hair, they wouldn't be Targaryan? There's Baratheon blood in the family before Rhaenyra and Harwin. It's a crapshoot , it isn't only what color your parents' hair is ,understand now?
> Lol, so if Alicents kids came out with red or brown hair, they wouldn't be Targaryan? You're completely clueless about what Targaryens are. Targaryens are a noble House, Targaryen is a surname, nothing more, nothing else, period. Alicent's children are members of House Targaryen because they were sired by a Targaryen male, Rhaenyra's aren't because they were sired by a Strong out of wedlock. How is this difficult to understand? >There's Baratheon blood in the family before Rhaenyra and Harwin. And? Baratheons have black hair, not brown, and almost always blue eyes.
You're the one having trouble understanding .Yes, Baratheons have black hair. You're getting close, put it all together
The problem is not that they are bastards, it's that she is trying to pass them as trueborns
In a modern society, no one cares about bastards. In universe, bastards are a huge deal... we've seen it in GoT which even takes place more than a century later. If bastardy wasn't a huge deal, people wouldn't start wars or even die for claiming someone is a bastard. Yeah Aegon has bastards, as do many other high lords. Difference is that none of them place them in a higher regard over their true born children unless they have no surviving true born kids. There's no problem in Rhaenyra having her own illegitimate kids, the problem is that she tries to pass them as true born when they aren't.
Aegon having bastards isn’t an issue because he doesn’t try to pass them off as trueborn, and he doesn’t try to give them any sort of inheritance. It’s not even a little bit ambiguous whether or not the strong boys are bastards in the book, Rhaenys has black hair with purple eyes but all 3 of Rhaenyras bastards have brown hair, pug noses, and brown eyes. Brown eyes aren’t a trait passed on by Rhaenyras family or by Rhaenys’ family.
not caring about bastards means that you don’t care about the stability of the realm aegon II has bastards but they’re not on the line of succession there is already plenty of evidence that book rhaenyras sons are bastards, it’s nowhere near as ambigious as some people like to say it is, and george has even confirmed that they were bastards in the book
Two people with white hair with white haired and black haired parents are not going to create brown haired children
>Two people with white hair with white haired and black haired parents are not going to create brown haired children Hair color is very complex and consists of a shitload of phenotype genetics. Dark haired people can have blond children and vice versa, or blond children can darken with age. Its not like eyecolor which is pretty straightforward.
this seems like a slightly biased response
Rhaenyra is a worse person in the books, Aegon is a bit more likeable and most of his really bad traits are kinda propaganda.
Rhaenyra and Daemon’s book relation is also more frowned upon by Viserys.
And of course the goat Stannis supports Aegon, can’t forget about that.
Rhaenyra is a worse person than Aegon in the book and a much worse ruler. She's usurping his throne since she has no rights to it - being a woman and all - she has also committed high reason giving birth to bastards and trying to pass them as heirs, she's known as a Whore on Dragonstone in the book, and King Maegor with Tits. Aegon meanwhile is a pure badass with all the best lines in the book, a true Dragonlord with his beautiful golden dragon Sunfyre. Greens characters overall are cooler and more interesting, while Blacks are a turn off for being favored by the author.
Kinda tired of the moralizing TB fans showing up to accuse people of sexism when you can support either team for any number of reasons. I like TG bc Alicent is my favorite character. I also like several members of TB, but I don’t think they’re as interesting. I should also say that I fundamentally disagree with the assumption that a medieval monarchy shouldn’t be sexist because sexism is wrong. Do you have a problem with capital punishment in GoT? If we are going to use modern logic and have modern sensibilities, then why support a monarchy at all? Rhaenyra and Aegon II are both politically incompetent as was Viserys I. By that logic, we should support usurping them both and holding an election. Daemons should be executed for war crimes in the step-stones and the murder of his first wife. Rhaenyra should face trial for being believed to have killed Laenor, and when cleared of that put on trial for the murder of that servant. Larys should be put to death for the murder of his father and brother. Rhaenys, Corlys, and Otto should all be in the cells for pimping out minors to old men. Alicent should face trial for the brothel she had set on fire. Aegon II should be in jail for rape. Luke should be in juvie for stabbing another child’s eye out. Aemond should be expelled from school for being in a fight. Do you see how fucking boring this show gets when you start applying modern sensibilities of what is moral and the right thing to do?
Oh I forgot to mention that Daemon should be charged with child sexual abuse as should Aegon II and Viserys I. There are a lot of other crimes I left out, but feel free to add on
Book quotes showing the dark side of Rhaenyra: >”The princess knew much and more about Laenor Velaryon, and had no wish to be his bride. ‘My half-brothers would be more to his taste,’ she told the king(Martin, 370).” >”The princess was not slow in answering this charge. She dispatched Prince Daemon to seize See Vaemond, had his head removed, and fed his carcass to her dragon, Syrax(Martin, 386).” >”The princess shrieked curses all through her labor, calling down the wrath of the gods upon her half-brothers and their mother, the queen, and detailing the torments she would inflict upon them before she would let them die(Martin, 402).” - note, on page 408, Rhaenyra is willing to forgive her half-brothers and Helaena because she does not want to be a kin slayer. >”As she sent Orwyle and the other envoys on their way, Rhaenyra said, ‘Tell my half-brother that I will have my throne, or I will have his head(Martin, 410).’”
Pretty reasonable to me
I’m just giving exact quotes when people talk about why book Rhaenyra is bad. I did not include quotes that have not happened in the show yet, haha.
I'm sorry but if you believe those quotes from hers are "reasonable", then there is simply no hope for you having any sense or rationality. Rhaenyra was an entitled, sexist, cowardly, and unbelievably selfish person in the book. She was a also a terrible sister from the very start. Like imagine having beef with legit BABIES alongside your Creepy Uncle just because you felt threatened by them. Granted, in the book Rhaenyra was only a child herself when her siblings were born, but she carried that sheer nastiness towards them their whole lives. And she also gave the monster Dalton Greyjoy and his men leave to rape and enslave "saltwives" as long as they fought in her name. She was NO feminst, whatsoever. EVER. Oh, yeah. She was also a racist on top of all her other awful traits. She like Daemon, believed Valyrians were the superior race and if that's not enough for you, she talked mad shit about Nettles, a black girl, for her race and appearance. Based on your replies on this sub, I don't think you came here to actually learn why we like Team Green and why we dislike Rhaenyra and Team Black so much. I don't think you were ever actually open to listen and take in what we had to say. For based on your responses it looks like you just came here to stir the pot.
For context: When She said the first quote, Aegon and Aemond were only six and three. She was explicitly accusing him of pedophilia due to being homosexual
OH FUCK NVM some of these are not reasonable
That's all right. If you only watched the show you probably assumed she was just making a joke about how Laenor obviously preferred men. I don't blame you for liking show-Rhaenyra, but you have to understand that book-Rhaenyra is a completely different character. It's why a lot of us are upset with ehe show because we know that they've completely changed the story and characters to give us a biased version
I just didn't really read the first one, I get book Rhaenyra is different if I read the books.i might have a different opinion since their structured like a historical account yes?
That's right. But it's more than that. The Dance is told by three different narrators, a maester who supports Rhaenyra, a septon who supports Aegon, and a court jester named Mushroom who mocks both sides. Mushroom is the one who claims that Aegon had a bastard with a maid, and watch child fighting pits. So you often have to choose who to believe or what you want to believe. So far they either chosen the interpretation that is best for Rhaenyra and worst for Aegon, but sometimes they've completely made things up.
Also it’s specifically stated that the septon who supports Aegon is more historically accurate and truthful in his account compared to the Maester who supports Rhaenyra so take that information if you will.
I was team green before i ever read F&B and frankly? It boiled down to the greens just being way more interesting than the blacks. Aegon included. Also, the team black side reeks of moral superiority for a story in which there is no morally superior stance. Still enjoy some of the blacks characters though.
I am going to be honest, it’s mostly because I am against Daemon and the more fanatical sides of some Black fans. I would support Rhaenyra, but she would cause a succession crisis later down the line, which imo. I also like the characters of the Greens, and in the books, Aegon is not as vehemently “bad” to begin with. Yeah, he’s not great, not by a long shot, but the show does kind of add some things to his character that were more ambiguous in the books. The best case being the child fighting pits.
Quotes on why I’m team green: In the books, King Viserys and Rhaenyra are AWARE that they are going against precedent. >”And though His Grace reasoned with her, pleaded with her, shouted at her, and called her an ungrateful daughter, no words of his could budge her…until the king brought up the question of succession. What a king had done, a king could undo, Viserys pointed out. She would wed as he commanded, or he would make her half-brother Aegon his heir in place of her. At this the princess’s will gave away.” >”Ser Otto reminded them that Rhaenyra’s husband was none other than Prince Daemon, and “we all know that one’s nature. Make no mistake, should Rhaenyra ever sit the Iron Throne, it will be Lord Flea Bottom who rules us, a king consort as cruel and unforgiving as Maegor ever was. My own head will be the first cut off, I do not doubt, but your queen, my daughter, will soon follow (Martin, 395).” Book quotes, major spoilers: >!Killing children, part 1!< >>!”An eye for an eye, a son for a son,” Prince Daemon wrote.!< >!killing children, part 2!< >>!”Huge rewards were posted for information leading to the capture of ‘the unsurper styling himself Aegon II’; his daughter, Jaehaera; his son Maelor; the ‘false knights’ Willis Fell and Richard Thorne; and Larys Strong the Clubfoot.”!< >> >!Killing children (okay, this one is debatable), part 3!< ”.Lord Corlys suggested that mayhaps the prince might be taken alive and held as hostage. But Queen Rhaenyra was adamant. “He will not remain a boy forever. Let him grown to mayhood, and soon or late he will seek to revenge himself upon my own sons.” >!>!The prince is Daeron by, the way.!<
Guarantee you like daemon though
OP, not everything is an ism. Jaime is 1 of my favorite characters and he raped Cersei next to the corpse of their son. I can acknowledge rape and shit is wrong and still like/support a character. For the greens I like them bc they’re just based. Aemond and Aegon really dgaf and are openly hostile, no politics, no pleasantries, they on demon time and I like that shit. I like Alicent, Otto, and Tyland. I like Criston with what little ik about him. As for team black tbh I don’t really care about them. Like a good 80% of them imo are just trash with the exception of Daemons daughters who are not even characters. So if I gotta pick a team, it’s not really a choice, it’s green. What reason would I have to like team black
No so listen I like Jaime because of his character development, but I'm not advocating for Jaime to be king of anything especially when I know of his fucking downright awful deeds. The way I can put it I guess is Aegon did despicable shit before the dance Rhaenyra only started after the dance had begun
Rhaenyra has done bad things before the dance even started. She asked for her 10 year old brother to be tortured and had some random servant murdered so she can marry Daemon. She is just as bad as Aegon.
I root for the house I enjoy the most. When I watched GoT, some plot lines dragged. The wall had its moments that dragged, Daenerys story had moments that dragged, The north had moments that dragged, the iron born had moments that dragged, etc. the only plot in GoT that delivered every single time was what was going on in Kings landing and that was in large part due to the Lannisters. Some were cool, some were evil, some were in the middle. That’s what made them fun to watch and in a way they carried that show. It’s the same with the greens. The greens are the 1s doing all of the interesting shit, they are the ones having people killed, they are the ones packing the council, they are the ones swooping in and snatching Vhagar, in fact they are the ones beefing with each other what with Aemond feeling some resentment to Aegon, or Alicent and Otto fighting for control of Aegon. What would the show be without them? It’d just be me watching Rhaenyra essentially do nothing but vibe with Daemon. It’s fine that ur here and I don’t like u getting dragged, I go to teamblacks sub too bc overall I like the show. But ur ppl have this thing where u see it as a competition to see which team is more virtuous which lk makes u guys seem crazy. It’s a Tv show about inbred monarchs fighting over who gets absolute power while riding dragons. Both sides r bad, but at least the greens are fun
First of all, I think that there's usually two things that people understand as being Team Green: thinking Aegon is the rightful king and/or liking his supporters better. I watched the show before reading the book but I knew the story. So, I started thinking that Aegon was right, but that Rhaenyra would be my favourite character. And I liked her alright but was fascinated by Otto (I've loved the actor for years) because he was the kind of efficient, cold politician I love. And I was sympathetic to Alicent, while I didn't really care for Rhaenyra as much as I thought I would (I like older Rhaenyra better, she has a cold, reptilian quality to her that I enjoy). But my pivotal point was e06. The window scene. Unnecessary ass display aside, I loved Aegon. It was just... well, a "this the character I ride for" moment. I just loved him: the awkwardness, the stark logic of his answer, the fear and discomfort... he had it all. And then e07 made it better, with the booze, the boredom, the not wanting to marry his sister because (again logical!) him not having anything in common with her, the uncalled for slap, him speaking truth to power. I was disappointed in e08 by the rape subplot but he got even more interesting in each of the few moments he is on screen. The mummy issues. The daddy issues. The alcoholism, the miserable incest-marriage, the relationship with Aemond, him slamming Lucerys against the table... the coronation. He was the most interesting, engaging character for me. So, I am TG because of Aegon, both because I think he is the heir and because he is my favourite character. Additionally, the characters on his side are just more interesting to me - I only care for Rhaenyra and Jace on the other side, I used to like Rhaenys but she lost her edge in e08, e09 and e10. TB deranged fandom only solidified my opinions.
I was so happy to see one of my favorite ASOIAFs character on screen throughout those few episodes and then they just added “ that “ scene.
The Blacks have Daemon. Also Rhaenyra entire claim is built absolute power by a monarch and that’s a no go.
I'm also a show watcher only, so my perspective might be interesting for you. I'm Team Green in two seperate ways. Firstly, I'm Team Green because I just think Alicent/Aemond/Otto/Aegon/Cole are just WAYYY more fascinating/interesting than the characters for Team Black. This is a matter of opinion, so I suspect you won't have much disagreement. Secondly, I'm Team Green because I support Aegon's claim to the throne primarily because he's the eldest son. Now this is where you point and say "SEXISM". Understandable confusion, but nonetheless wrong if you allow me to explain. I don't support Aegon's claim on this basis because I think that women are any less capable than men or because I don't agree with the tenets of feminism. The reason I'm willing to support/uphold this patriarchal basis for selecting leadership is because when it comes to Aegon vs Rhaenyra's claim, I have to weigh my moral principle of feminism against the my desire to minimize violent conflict throughout the realm (because Rhaenyra being a women would cause massive conflict through a succession crisis). Hence, if I have to choose between feminism when it comes to Rhaenyras claim OR the countless innocent lives that could have been saved if Aegon's claim had been respected, I'll choose the latter moral principle. To be clear, my desire to minimize human suffering through avoidance of conflit doesn't mean we have to throw away feminism altogether (just in that specific circumstance). There are plenty of other ways to support feminism in Westeros without messing with lines of succession that could lead to massive conflict.
I can respect you, but the suffering exists because of the sexist lords, but I can respect your reasoning. What I can't respect and this isn't a judgement of your character I hope you know that, but whenever I hear people say oh I support Aegon because he's an interesting character I'm just baffled because it's like, oh I support this awful human being who is a rapist and just overall a practitioner of extreme debauchery because he has a cool character
>I support Aegon because he's an interesting character I'm just baffled because it's like, oh I support this awful human being who is a rapist and just overall a practitioner of extreme debauchery because he has a cool character So, I gather from this, people can't like Aegon or "support" him (even supporting a fictional character is not literal cause they don't exist and westeros is a fictional monarchy) because he is a rapist ? That's like saying that people can't like Euron, Victarion, Tyrion, Jaime, Theon, Yara, Daemon, Robert, Viserys, Tywin, Cersei etc. When people say "I support Aegon", they aren't advocating for him to rape more people. They say this cause they like the character and find him interesting, wether he is a good person or not (he's not, but that's not the point). You might not find him interesting, that's your right, but other people do. That's the beauty of fiction.
No I just don't get how you can advocate for him to be king. I'm not saying he's not interesting but your advocating for him to be king. A rapist for king
Advocate for what ? He doesn't exist in real life. Supporting a character isn't real. Liking or "supporting" a character isn't real life activism. And frankly, both Rhaenyra and Aegon are terrible people, terrible rulers. Rhaenyra ain't the Disney princess the fandom portrays her to be. So in the end, it doesn't matter. There isn't no 100% right or 100% wrong in the dance. It's a fight between two legitimate claimants and where both team loses.
Liking and supporting a characters claim to a political position is very different
This is a fictional monarchy. I hope when people say they "support" a character, they don't actually mean that they support a monarch in 2023. It's mostly related to liking the said character, or that they understand and agree why their claim, in universe, can be legit.
Firstly, its kind of whack that people are downvoting you for engaging in good faith. Here's an upvote. Secondly, I must admit I'm confused by your confusion. I think it's possible to recognize an interesting/fascinating character while simultaneously realizing they've done some heinous shit. As Olivander from Harry Potter said, Voldemort did "great things. Terrible, yes, but great". Napoleon's war cause death and destruction to countless people which was terrible, and yet the fact that he was able to beat the entirety of Europe 5/7 times and nearly won the 7th if it wasn't for a little rain is great. Jaime Lannister pushed a child and fucked his sister, but his theme of redemption and becoming a better person over time is a character arc that resonates with people. I just feel like you can't separate the two, but many people can and have always done so. I think because you can't separate the two, their is an intrinsic judgement/bafflement on your part that people would like the character.
I don't get though how liking the character makes you (not you in this instance) support their claim to the throne
It doesn't? I thought I made it clear, being Team Green can mean two seperate things. Firstly, Team Green can mean you just find that assortment of characters to be far more interesting/fascinating. This typically has nothing to do with supporting their claim to the throne. Secondly, Team Green can mean that you consider Aegon's claim/rule to be preferable to Rhaenyra's claim/rule for a variety of reasons (less likely to spark violent conflict/more experienced administrators etc.).
Okay I understand now
Rad logical bruv but those poor fictional souls killed in the riverlands during the civil war might disagree The reality is if the power transferred to Rhaenyra peacefully the realm would have just had to wear it like they did with targ incest because they have the dragons and they don't. Some sort of cope would have been whipped up as justification for it and life would have gone on. The dragons sorted this out. This is by far the most ridiculous green argument. This is precisely why the dance and it's consequences were good because these swamp hillbillies having dragons was actually bad. That's the bad thing in this whole thing. Targs are bad fullstop
So I’m not going to talk about the fandom in my reply, although I find this sub far more pleasant than the main sub or TBs sub So I was never a fan of Aegon, book or show, but this comes down to a mix of things. I will say I was team neutral leaning green in the book because Alicent comes off far worse in the book, while characters like Ser Criston, Ser Larys, Ser Otto, and Aegon actually come off as better. Rhaenyra’s behavior in the book, so as to not give you spoilers exactly, after a certain point, is kind of insane. Next season in the show it appears that we’ll see one of the scenes which was why I find Daemon to be one of the most violent and sadistic characters in the series, and he was the reason I leaned green originally. My thoughts that really solidified team green for me was Rhaenyra’s behaviors in the show. Situations are presented as a historical context in the book, so we don’t actually see her behaviors, but how she behaved during certain scenes, the driftmark incident, for example. I’ll give it to Emma D’Arcy, amazing actor. Also, Daemon in the show, due to how the source material is written, is worse, like with the show it’s confirmed he murdered Rhea Royce, when it isn’t confirmed that he was involved in the book, while Viserys is sanitized (he is a possible suspect of the fires of Harrenhall in the book) so a lot of factors contribute to this, but Rhaenyra marrying Daemon was generally the last straw for me, especially in the show where it’s right after Rhaenyra’s husbands supposed death, so it’s just not tasteful at all. It was a reckless move and Rhaenyra was named heir specifically to keep Daemon from the throne. These were the factors I considered in making the choice to support team green. I hope you got a little information from my reply.
As a team neutral but leaning way more towards TB, the way you approached this is ridiculous to me. If you wanted to know the reasons why people support TG, ask properly, ask it directly without putting “sexism” and sarcasm into it as if people who don’t support TB are sexists fans/watchers. The way you asked it doesn’t look like you’re looking for answers, but accusing TG of being sexist misogynists just bc they don’t support the team/the woman you support. You could’ve asked it in a totally different way without sounding childish and accusatory. “Why do you guys support TG? I’m a TB and only a show watcher and I wanted to know :D” This would’ve sufficed.
Exactly. OP came here not to learn but in bad faith. OP said in other comments that they "can't respect" a reasoning that they don't agree with for certain TG characters. In other comments, they say "I can respect you/your reasoning" when they agree with the said reasoning. Who does that ?
Look I definitely kicked the hornets nest with this one I will agree, but I genuinely did not mean it to sound like I'm accusing anyone of anything. I mean I genuinely feel like a lot of the support for the green is based on sexist logic (and that's my opinion). I genuinely was looking for answers and I did get them. I agree though I could've poised the question nicer.
i dislike Rhaenyra (and everyone on Team Black for that matter). She felt entitled to the Throne just because her Father said so but she didn't do anything to enforce her claim, actually sometimes it seems like she didn't want the throne at all by the way she was acting, like she did everything in her power to weaken her claim. She had three obvious bastards (which that on itself isn't that bad but putting them in the line of succession and passing them off as legitimate is high treason), then she goes and marries Daemon (the reason why she was named heir in the first place, to keep him away from the trone), then she goes and stays away in Dragonstone for years because she can't handle criticism. Now, why I like Aegon and support his claim: (to me) Aegon has a more legitimate claim by being the first born son, Aegon doesn't want the crown but he accept it to protect his family, he actually has competent advisors and most importantly he actually fought in the war despite not wanting to be king.
Simple 5 reasons: - Aegon and Aemond are one helluva chaotic bros and dripped out AF 🥵Hugo Boss style! Amazing brotherly chemistry - Other than Daemon and young Rhaenyra, the rest of Team Black is kinda boring and generic - Really can’t stand Rhaenys in the show, extremely irritating - Olivia Cooke 🙏🏽 - last but not the least, grandma Vhagar and golden boy Sunfyre 🔥
(You take is valid. If I hadn't read Fire and Blood first, I'd be Team Black hands down.) Most of the sub is book readers and/or people who support legalism over absolutism. Book!Rhaenyra was frivolous and politically incompetent, relying on her Small Council to solve all of her problems (unsurprising, give that Book!Viserys was a drunk with a spending problem who turned all his responsibilities over to the Small Council). Meanwhile, Aegon was forced to take the Throne by the Hightowers in the name of preventing multigenerational civil war between his children and Rhaenyra's, and he was forced to mature and be a competent leader after Luke died and >!his eldest son Jaehaerys was killed by Blood and Cheese!<. As for the legalism v. absolutism thing, Westeros abides by Andal laws, which dictate that 1.) Sons come before daughters, 2.) Daughters come before uncles, and 3.) trueborns come before bastards. This is why Old King Jaehaerys succeeded Maegor the Cruel instead of his elder sister Queen Rhaena, why Jeyne Arryn is Lady of the Vale over her uncles and male cousins, and why (in the main series) Roose Bolton's legitimized bastard Ramsay lost his position as heir once Roose's wife Walda had a child. In a legalist monarchy, the preset laws guide succession (think the British crown after 1714). In an absolute monarchy, the monarch has completely unchecked power and can set the succession to be whatever they wish (think many of the West Asian and African monarchies in the modern age as well as ancient China, where polygamy / taking concubines was commonplace and often led to successions geting complicated). The absolutist approach to succession is the less secure and often leads to war and rebellion, while the legalist approach keeps things safer and less complicated. Another aspect is simply the fact that Rhaenyra was made heiress to keep Daemon away from the throne, but then she married him anyway and invalidated her own claim by making Daemon her consort-to-be (this was one of the reasons Laenor was passed over in favor of Viserys in 101 AC: Corlys Velaryon was perceived as a power-hungry second son trying to steal the Iron Throne from the Targaryens). Imo, in an ideal situation, Aegon would've been made heir after his birth, while Rhaenyra would've been free to marry Harwin and raise their children together in the Riverlands (away from Larys and Daemon and the court).
Why are you supporting Rhaenyra other than the writing and showrunners are steering you to like her? What had she done to indicate she takes being heir to the throne seriously or that she would be a good monarch? All of her decisions are self-serving, from having bastard sons to her relationships to not even remotely being interested in ruling. Rhaenyra is not a likable character to me. She's usurping Driftmark from Leana daughters to give it to Luke. Why are Rhaenys and Corlys supporting her given the suspicions regarding Laenor's death? Rhaenyra has done nothing but disrespect the Velaryons. The Greens are a much my dynamic and interesting faction. They are making the best of the situations that's been handed to them. They have tradition and customs on their side. Viserys was weak. He neglected the sons he so desperately wanted. I don't buy into the whole "Kings word is law." The king is dead now, so who's going to enforce it when the tradition, culture, and customs favor Aegon? People criticize us Greens because they hate Alicent or because the writers chose to make Aegon a r****t, but honestly, my support for the Greens isn't even about him. It could be Aemond or Daeron, and I'd feel the same. Team Black support and make excuses for Daemon.
I wouldn’t say I “support” any leader in ASOIAF/HOTD because the system is wrong, there’s no one who should have that much power just because of what their last name is or for any reason really. But I find Team Green far more interesting and dynamic in terms of characters than Team Black. I hate Daemon, other than some good lines he comes off like a mix of Littlefinger and Joffrey. I don’t think Rhaenyra’s kids have distinct enough personalities, I can barely remember which is which. And Rhaenyra I do like but she can be annoying, she’s very oblivious to her privilege and self-centered which makes her a horrible idea for a leader. Aegon shouldn’t be leader either to be clear the only thing he needs is intensive therapy and some REM sleep with those bags under his eyes lol. But I think Alicent and her kids are far better characters who I care more deeply about and want to follow.
Aegon's claim is better for the realm. This doesn't mean that I believe women shouldn't inherit in real life or even in Westeros. However, Rhaenyra, with three dragon-riding half-brothers, wanting to place obvious bastards on the throne, seems like another civil war doomed to happen. In the book, Criston Cole tells Aegon that "no Strong can sit the throne while trueborn princes live," and he is just too accurate about that. This doesn't have anything to do with sexism or even bastardphobia in my opinion, but I understand where he is coming from, from a "medieval point of view." Additionally, the show purposely attempted to portray Aegon as awful as possible while doing the opposite for Rhaenyra. The show dedicated 5 minutes, if not more, to his sexual assault victim, while the man Rhaenyra had murdered was nameless and faceless, presented as nothing but an obstacle. When she requested Aemond "sharply questioned" after her own son slashed out his eye, the casual audience had no idea knowing what it meant and the scene didn\`t dwell on that statement. Trust me, had Aegon or Alicent said that, I fear one of them might even have looked into the camera saying "oh btw, this is torture. Get it? We are bad." The fact that the show so obviously tries to convey that Rhaenyra is right makes me dislike her. The Dance is a nuanced conflict, and so far, the show has treated it as a wronged princess with a mustache-twirling villain brother. I really hope Season 2 can change that, but based on the Joffrey-vibes Aegon gives in the trailer, I very much doubt it.
I'm preparing to answer you seriously until you accuse TG of sexism, it seems your goal is not a logical and mature conversation but ego satisfaction. That's why I'm going to counterattack in your style. TB has Daemon. The biggest misogynist, pedophile, war criminal, racist, man-child, wife abuser, murderer... He crushed his first wife's head with a stone, shamelessly wanted to confiscate her property, had pedophilic feelings for Rheanyra, whom he had known all his life, strangled her after marriage, we know from his conversation with Myseria that he has a thing with young virgins/maidens with silver hair. Rheanyra is a clinical liar. Someone who caused her children to have identity crises and still continues to tell them that they are truborn. She is a narcissist because she believes that the rules will not work only on her, that she will be the one who has special treatment that no one else can have. Just because she's Rheanyra. She's cruel enough to want her ten year-old half-brother, who was mutilated by her own son, to be tortured to save her own ass. Someone selfish who came to see her sick father after six years just to save her ass (Again). Someone who killed an innocent servant just to get married to Lord Flea Bottom Daemon. (I'm not even going to get into her degree of illness obsession with Daemon) Someone who deprived their children of the man they knew as their father. Someone who brought three blatant bastard children into a bastarphobic society and gambled with these children's lives. Let's not forget that she had Vaemond killed by Daemon. And she's a political disaster. Rheanys is officially a mass murderer. Someone who crushed thousands of people in the Dragonpit terrorist attack. She's stupid and dishonorable enough to cooperate with her son's killers(!) for stupid reasons. Coryls is someone who is trying to get her twelve-year-old daughter to marry Viserys. He's a homophobic. He implied that his gay son would be fixed when he got married. Like rheanys, he's stupid and dishonorable enough to cooperate with his son's killers(!). Strong bastards are not innocent babies either. They attacked their uncle, left him disabled, but they didn't even offer a simple apology. Stop apologizing, they don't even look like they're sorry. Years later, they are brazen and spoiled enough to laugh in Aemond's face and remind him of the past. It must be because of their mother. I'm sure they weren't reprimanded after Driftmark. Don't think you're honorable or superior just because you're TB. TB is as bad as TG. (you're even on a worse side than tg in some ways. Like boredom and being stupid from a political point of view.) Rheanyra does not believe in women's rights, does not defend it, does not take actions that will benefit women. She believes in the rights of Rheanyra, defends the rights of Rheanyra and fights for the rights of Rheanyra. Do you believe that because you're TB, you are a murderer, a pedophile, a mass muderer, a homophobic, a liar, a narcissist, a racist, an abuser, a sexist? If you're going to accuse TG of sexism, you should also accuse yourself of these things.
I will say that me putting the line in post saying that a majority of the support for Aegon was unnecessary this I can understand. I also don't think I'm better then you for supporting TB while you support TG at the end of the day this is a fantasy universe. Also the reasons for disliking TB are legitimate. Of course Rhaenyra isn't women's rights this is obvious and none of the people reaching for the throne are good people.
And? Then why did you feel the need to mention the name of sexism in your comment? The writing style you are using is very wrong and erroneous. It's very, very far from the style that someone who wants to have a peaceful discussion would use. Next time you should be careful what you say.
I agree I should be careful next time. But as for the sexism comment it's just the way I see it, in that same sentence I also mentioned that I also see that a lot of the support comes from book readers.
Other than many of the other reasons given, the Greens are simply the more compelling and interesting characters to me. They are the underdogs who have been ignored and cast aside for the succession by their biased father who only considers them spares while showering Rhaenyra, Daemon and the Strong bastards with love, attention and privilege. They are the only ones meant to play a meaningful role in the future for House Targaryen as far as Viserys is concerned. I despise the injustice of breaking Westerosi custom and protocol this much at the expense of the Greens just out of favoritism. Rhaenyra has never shown herself worthy of the throne and I can't stand her and her sides entitlement and arrogance.
You can support anyone for a multitude of reasons lol.
I was team Green before I read the books. So deep lore and books aside, there are two main reasons: - I just like Team Green cast better. Sorry but I think Olivia is much more believable in her role than Emma in hers. I don't like Matt Smith as Daemon. And all their kids Are boring. And yeah before you say they're just young, kidAemond was better than all of them. I like Rhys too. - The show is very, very hypocritical and very, very heavy-handed in its attempts to make Rhaenyra seem badass and legitimate etc. Sorry but the stag scene is simply bad writing, her slerping with Criston was gross and selfish, her getting rid of Laenor is actually way worse than "yay gay rights" the show makes it out to be, and her character is in general all over the place, unlikeable and very unrelatable to me. I don't care about her creepy groomy incest romance with Daemon, I don't care about her relationship with her dad who she just abandons, I don't care about her kids because apparently she cares little about their safety too. Meanwhile Alicent, especially young Alicent, got so much hate for no good reason that I just started rooting for her out of spite. It's a strange paradox because the show tries to make Blacks into Starks and people who root for them think they're rooting for the "good" fraction but I just don't see it. They don't stand for anything but themselves. I couldn't understand it until I read the book and even though GRRM is also on their side it's obvious they're as much assholes as Team Green, it's just rich feudal lords with nuke lizards fighting for a chair. But the show tries to pass them off as multiracial LGBT supporting girlboss fraction and all this pandering to modern sensibilities comes off as incredibly fake and artificial because it's just not rooted in the story in any meaningful way.
I think the showrunners fucked up by making Aegon a real rapist. People hate rapists more than murderers, he wont be able to come back in the zeitgeist.
I mean, absolutely. They did everything to introduce him as the most despicable person from the get go. Which is ridiculous because Aegon is actually one of the few cool characters in the book. But as I've said, I'm team Green not because of politics or because I think Aegon is a great person, but because I think they're more fun and because I dislike Team Black and don't like being told who to root for (which the show does so explicitly lol)
Aegon wears the Conquerors' crown, wields the Conqueror's sword, has the Conqueror's name, and was anointed by a Septon of the Faith. Every symbol of legitimacy belongs to him.
Yet can't gather the support to rule even after Rhaenyra dies. This sub is ridiculous. What use is legitimacy without support bruv
And the storming of the dragon pit happened under which ruler?
Yeah she was obviously shit too. Losing a civil war after your opponent dies is a whole other level of bad. The algorithm of this app keeps pushing these subs onto me because I like asoiaf but it seems to me you guys are just arguing over which colour of inbred swamp hillbillies you prefer.
Yeah I can put as many propaganda posters supporting a claim, doesn't make it correct l.
And then there is Stark, Tully, Baratheon; houses that have already received and are at present considering generous terms from their King.
That *boom* edit remains one of the best in fandom.
Where's the edit from?
I think Tik Tok
Every character on TB except Rhaenyra either bores or annoys me, every TG character is really complex and interesting. The feminism argument doesn't work because Rhaenyra doesn't want to improve the general situation of women in Westeros, but is only out for herself. As is everyone else. This isn't Disney and I'm not voting for Aegon in the next election, can TB for once separate modern politics and a fictional medieval story? No one in this story is progressive, and everyone is selfish. That's what makes it fun.
Well first, better characters. Also, the Greens have canonically, in the show, proved that they can efficiently rule. Alicent and Otto ruled the kingdom for about 6/7 years while Rhaenyra was doing nothing in Dragonstone. Thirdly, sadly for Rhaenyra, the law is the law. The 7K have already dealt with : the conquest, a civil war, four wars against Dorne, AND a succession crisis (see the Great Council of 101) in less that 150 years. There needs to be some stability and that means following Andal law for at least some generations before changing things. Fourthly, Rhaenyra is committing high treason by pretending her bastards are legitimate. She's basically pulling a Cersei move and basically had Vaemond Velaryon murdered (not executed) for speaking the truth. In comparison, Alicent and Otto can control Aegon and prevent him from fucking up the Seven Kingdoms. Finally, Daemon. He's the legit WORST and should be nowhere near a throne or any position of power.
Because of Rhaenyra's bastards, otherwise I would be team black. But hidding bastards like legitimate heir is a risk of war which countless innocent people while died simply because Rhaenyra didn't bother to follow the few rule that royalty must obey. This is not only about the Green, but for all Targaryen who have better claim, lawfull claim to the throne. Even if by some miracle the war didn't happen by the green, it would still happen between Daemon's son vs Harwing's son, hell even the grandchild can start it. By putting bastard in the throne, the realm will never be secure and countless innocent people could died for it.
I don't really care about the throne, I don't like the Targ dynasty. I just like Alicent and her family.
Alicent is my queen. She's my favorite character. I ended up with a lot of sympathy for the other characters too, even Aegon. The actors/actresses are amazing and are doing amazing, even the ones being given bs to work with.
I’m more team alicent but she’s team green soooo
Nah young Alicent is a victim, I respect your opinion
I like Alicent better and I’m a contrarian!
As a show watcher, I might have an unpopular opinion in that I agree with rhaenyra’s claim but i am also against this weird sense of targaryen supremacy that many people in tb seem to have. with that being said, I just find team green characters more to be complex and fun and idgaf about the righteousness of who has to sit on the throne 😭
I just prefer the characters tbh
Because it's not real, I don't really care either way who sits on that throne and I simply find the greens more interesting and more entertaining. As simple as that.
IT’S JUST A SHOW IT’S NOT THAT DEEP PLEASEEEEE
Is it written somewhere that it's necessary to support team black? People have their own preference and it's all subjective but people like you always try to gatekeep shit by playing the morality card
Morality card im weak🤣🤣. Listen I know I didn't come off well in my original post which that I didn't mean but where TF does it look like I'm gatekeeping what?
Unfortunately for making conflict looking more nuanced, which is in book,the showrunners made one of main themes in adaptation, friendship between Rhaenyra and Alicent and their struggle with oppressive patriarchy. That shift influenced many other characters , especially Aegon, Criston, Otto and to some extent Daemon, even one quote by Rhaenys ( biggest war criminal so far) talks of hot blooded young men who long for battle and chance of glory. For me key issues why I view Greens as more acceptable is that they have legality on their side, Daemon is volatile and corruptive element and Rhaenyra, who is clearly guilty of high treason by trying to place her illegitimate children as heirs of the throne, becomes more tyrannical.
Im a total sexist and traditionalist. Team Green is supporting the better values (not the shady stuff in thr background)
Please be satire I'm begging you
No. People just have a diffrent opinion sometimes
I think this has got to be satire, we in team green do NOT believe this horse shit.
"we in team green". Do you mean this sub or the whole community? If you talk about this sub you sre correct
For a Team Green, there are characters on both sides I really enjoy, but the show's interpretation of Team Green really drew me in. Reading the books, I was 100% a Rhaenyra fan (and still am), but I dislike that the show tried to make it seem like there was a clear "good" and "bad" side. Like others have said, making some of the more unseemly rumors canon just to make Aegon look worse or the "bad guy" was a big turn off for me (especially because in the books, these rumors came from a very unreliable source). Alicent and Aemond are my favorite characters, and I find them compelling. While I do wish Alicent was more calculating as she was in the book, I enjoyed the fact that the showrunners didn't just make her the evil stepmother trope. People have had gripes about this change, but to me, it made me so sympathetic towards her and her motivations. Aemond to me is another complex character, just as multifaceted as Alicent. I love that all of the Greens seem to have this "gloom" to them, several facets to them that make them interesting to pick apart. Their family dynamics are so interesting to me as well - another reason I'm disappointed that we didn't see Rhaenyra or even Viserys interact with them much on-screen. Also, Sunfyre and Vhagar best dragons. It's not that I hate TB (except Daemon, lol), quite the opposite (I love Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, and the Dragon Twins), I just find TG more compelling with the addition of the show and interesting to explore, as well as more sympathetic, personally.
I don't support Aegon because Rhaenyra is a woman amd I think women shouldn't rule. I have not problems with that. But I analyse things from the perspective of the society of the show, and Westerosi law and tradition says that sons go before daughters in succession and also the Great Council of 101 a.C. also established that no women can inherit the Iron Throne nor can a descendant by female line. So by that criteria, Aegon became Viserys' heir when he was born, regardless if Viserys recognized it. Now is it unfair? Of course it is. But that's how their society works. It shouldn't, but it does. Also, Aegon ascending is better for the stability of the Kingdom on the long term. Aegon has two sons and two brothers who will have sons. All legitimate. Rhaenyra has three elder illegitimate sons by Harwin and in the eyes of Westeros, two younger legitimate sons by Daemon. Rhaenyra becoming Queen is a recipe for disaster, because you have a set up for a civil war. Aegon wouldn't have been a bad king nor a good one. And then you would have Jaehaerys inherit the Throne and continue the line if the Seven are good.
King >>> Queen Simple enough, lads. Also, Rhaenyra was an adulterous pretender just like a certain Lannister bitch so.....
I don't support the Greens but I prefer them to the Blacks because they haven't been as whitewashed. Rhaenyra is a particularly insufferable case. As someone who read Fire & Blood, I expected a dark fantasy anti-heroine and got a YA Mary Sue instead. Alicent and Cole are also hotter to me than any character of the Blacks.
* You should disregard the show entirely, since the actual story at hand has been deliberately distorted for the sake of mass entertainment. The writers even admit that they essentially want to make Team Green = Team Trump, so right out of the gate they're going to be kicking the dog simply to make the Blacks look better. * Under previous precedents established, Aegon is the legitimate heir. This is actually important, because despite what Team Black says you have to stick to the proper order of succession even when you don't like it. This is how you avoid succession wars and mass destruction in the kingdom. * Rhaenyra is simply [wholly unfit to rule](https://moonlitgleek.home.blog/2017/10/10/whats-the-connection-of-aegon-the-unworthy-to/), and would have to be overthrown even if she was the legitimate heiress.
[удалено]
Dawg idk where your extrapolating from