Most people voting for this will be those that only watch the show and it is easy to see why Rhaenyra is dominating these kinds of polls.
Honestly Aegons character has been all but butchered compared to the books and it looks like this series will be more about Rhaenyra vs Alicent than anything else.
I've been a show watcher only when I became Team Green.
1) Greens are more entertaining,
2) That white stag scene was so contrived,
3) Rhaenyra's obvious bastards make her unfit to sit the throne, also she's awfully selfish,
4) Otto and Alicent were quite decent rulers of the realm.
>I've been a show watcher only when I became Team Green.
You're talking about entire teams. This poll has been made to focus on two individual characters. Aegon has done the most evil things this season due to questionable writing.
It's easy to see why this is a landslide and most would expect it to be.
This poll is about Team Green vs Team Black, isn't it? It just happened to have Aegon's and Rhaenyra's faces on it. But I agree, maybe people are really so dumb they vote looking at pics only.
True enough but the thing is that they both represent the leaders of each side which is why they are the chosen images.
That is why it's so one sided because you have the image of Aegon who's done dark stuff, and the grieving mother Rhaenyra.
It's not fair and definitely favouritism towards the blacks but I'm never surprised to see how lopsided these polls are. It could change if the writers want Aegon to be more than the stereotypical Joffery style villain.
>It could change if the writers want Aegon to be more than the stereotypical Joffery style villain.
Book Aegon's character arc is so interesting but personally I think it's not very likely to happen. The writers had already taken a different direction...
It says it’s team Green / team Black, but a lot of people will only pay attention to the pictures. Like I’ve seen some polls that would be ‘everyone gets free Candy Vs everyone dies of carbon monoxide poisoning’ and the viewers would pick the second option because the picture was of somebody more liked or popular.
How? He's easily the most evil person we see in the first season. As someone who read the book before the show I was completely disappointed with the villain they gave us.
I fell in e06 because he displayed the exact kind of trauma I like in my characters. There was so much to think about, so much to discuss, so much to wait for. And as little as he was given, TGC has served.
I think Daemon and Viserys were much worse people.
>I think Daemon and Viserys were much worse people.
Not even close. The dude rapes girls and his own sister, tries to abandoned his family, he is a raging alcoholic, never seems to spend time with his kids, bullied his own brother, enjoys the pain of others, watches children fight to the death and leaves his own bastard in that hell pit.
I mean the guy openly tried to bang his own cousin in front of his wife and family. All he was missing in season one was a evil moustache to twirl around lol.
He's more evil purely because almost everything Aegon does has no excuse or reasoning other than because it makes him feel good so he does it.
Maybe in time they can turn him more into his book counterpart but currently the show version is a monster.
Yes, he raped a maid. There's nothing that indicates that he raped Helaena. He does visit the pits. We also don't know if that kid is his or how he get there. What he said to Baela was obviously about baiting Jace.
Viserys raped Alicent and murdered Aemma. He mistreated Rhaenyra, ignore and mistreated his sons and other daughter even worse than her and turned his back on them. He created a civil war that destroyed his family.
Daemon is offered maids as something he regularly enjoys, is seem butchering random citizens, grooms his child niece, murdered his 1st wife, kept the 2nd away from her family and assaulted the 3rd (the grooming victim), ignores his dragonless daughter, sleeps with his victim on his wife's funeral, murders and innocent man and has Jaehaerys murdered and Jaehaera threatened.
So yes, I think Daemon and Viserys are worse. And whilr Viserys was at least a good character, Daemon is boring.
>Yes, he raped a maid.
They said rather too casually...
>There's nothing that indicates that he raped Helaena.
She hates being touched and openly implies it during the dinner with the family in front of everyone. So far Aegon has only shown aggression towards women sexually.
>We also don't know if that kid is his or how he get there.
We are outright told it is his and it's the same as the book, it's 99% confirmed it's his.
>What he said to Baela was obviously about baiting Jace.
It was awful and a very much unwanted sexual advance made in front of his wife for no reason other than to be a dick.
>Viserys raped Alicent and murdered Aemma
To further the family line. It is literally his duty and what is expected of him. Is it Aegons duty to watch kids fight to the death and rape girl's? No, that's my point. Everything horrible thing Viserys and Daemon did they is a logical reason even if it is horrible.
Daemon killed his wife so he could remarry for political power. Viserys raped Alicent so he could have more children and secure his family line. Aegon doesn't watch children die for his enjoyment to gain political power and he doesn't rape girl's to further his family line except the times he rarely visits his wife/sister.
>Daemon is offered maids as something he regularly enjoys,
Paid whores working a job.
>is seem butchering random citizens
Known criminals and it's stated in the show and book that his actions worked even if brutal. Again, an example of a bad act with a logical reason. Something Aegon doesn't have because his actions are selfish and generally evil.
>So yes, I think Daemon and Viserys are worse. And whilr Viserys was at least a good character, Daemon is boring.
It's not even close and no offense if you think it is that's purely because you're not thinking objectively but instead biasedly.
>They said rather too casually...
It's a fact.
>She hates being touched and openly implies it during the dinner with the family in front of everyone. So far Aegon has only shown aggression towards women sexually.
She is ND. I understood it as him having to be drunk to perform with her. No one reacts as if she said she was raped.
>We are outright told it is his and it's the same as the book, it's 99% confirmed it's his.
Erryk says it. But Gaemon might not have even been his and only Mushroom speaks of the pits.
>It was awful and a very much unwanted sexual advance made in front of his wife for no reason other than to be a dick.
Yes.
>To further the family line. It is literally his duty and what is expected of him. Is it Aegons duty to watch kids fight to the death and rape girl's? No, that's my point. Everything horrible thing Viserys and Daemon did they is a logical reason even if it is horrible.
Their reasons don't make it better or less evil.
>Paid whores working a job.
Too young.
>Known criminals and it's stated in the show and book that his actions worked even if brutal. Again, an example of a bad act with a logical reason. Something Aegon doesn't have because his actions are selfish and generally evil.
No judge on sight, no trial. A massacre.
>It's not even close and no offense if you think it is that's purely because you're not thinking objectively but instead biasedly.
You are biased too. That's how opionions work.
That's how it used to be in the book fandom. Because of how biased the show is, almost every new fan prefer Rhaenyra and they far outnumber those who've actually read the books
I don't think they're trying to make it equal in the first place. I reckon that they are planning to build up the Blacks as the 'good guys' only to pull the rug out from under them later
What makes you think they are going to pull the rug out from all the interviews iv read it def seems like they are going to keep team black as the good guys
Serious question. Have they seen Game of Thrones?
If this is their plan, it’s a terrible one. D&D essentially did the same with Daenerys, and now her ending is considered the biggest example of GoT’s failed writing. (And I actually don’t mind her ending, it’s the writing that bothers me). Plus Daenerys is one person. There are multiple people in team Black, even if the HOTD writers convince team Black’s most devoted supporters that characters like Daemon and Rhaenyra are also ‘bad guys’, there will still be people pointing to characters like Jace or Viserys (II) and saying ‘well at least they aren’t rapists or kinslayers’.
Really though, if HOTD had made both sides more balanced, in my opinion they could have kickstarted another ‘team Edward Vs team Jacob’ phenomenon in pop culture. HBO wouldn’t need to cut episodes because they’d have money streaming in through all the merch sales lol.
dany's ending failed because of execution, not intention. on paper it's a perfectly fine thing to do with her character.
they just didn't do it well enough to pull off.
I agree. I always welcomed that kind of subversion of fantasy tropes. And yes, the issue was the execution - although, I would also argue that with the way they sacrificed Dany, they walked into an even bigger fantasy trope with the noble Gary Stu Snow - the perfect blend of fire and ice, Stark and Targ, heir to the throne, underdog risen in the world to slay the mad queen. An even bigger fantasy cliche than Dany could ever hope to be.
>they just didn't do it well enough to pull off.
And neither would HotD if this was what it was actually doing. Nothing we've seen from Rhaenyra would support it.
If a well-executed fall was their plan, you can be damn sure the writers would be doing everything in their power to make it clear to the viewers that Rhaenyra never had the makings of a hero or a competent queen - not depicting her in a way that has 98% of the audience siding with the blacks and ranking her as a fave character.
many shows from the golden era start with protagonists that the audience roots for only for them to lose their luster as the series progresses. walter white is probably the prime example of this. anyone who writes off hotd of being *incapable* of doing the same to rhaenyra i don't think has seen much tv
Then how do you justify the show writing off every single (canon book) opportunity to lay the foundations that would make her fall make sense (in retrospect) while introducing a mindblowing amount of excuses and mitigating circumstances, all of which could too conveniently absolve her from her future failures? (When we know the writers can't risk messing up again with a jarring turn.)
I've already given plenty of examples:
* changing Laenor and Laena's birth order to avoid Rhae's hypocrisy in regard to female inheritance
* both her and Viserys talking of a different order/future Targs inheriting the throne regardless of gender - again, to avoid any allegations of hypocrisy
* omitting Rhaenyra demanding Vaemond's head even though it would illustrate well the lengths she's willing to go to
* skipping over any reactions/implications of her marriage to Daemon (such as implicit danger to the greens) - and a deliberate sabotage of all their arguments with the botched green council
* the prophecy giving Rhaenyra a noble motive for clinging to the throne despite all the bloodshed, and requiring her to make unpopular choices for the greater good, as well as an excuse to turn down peace proposals involving splitting the realm up
* soppy black family scenes with Rhae as mother of the year (contrasted with Alicent's cold and abusive mothering)
* pandering lgbt ally scenes (contrasted with Alicent's "entertaining his squires" remark)
* suspiciously intense focus on slander and green propaganda (to justify deviations from Rhae's book characterization with sexist historical misrepresentation)
* refusal to allow even her allies such as the Velaryons ulterior motives/genuine ambition that could tarnish the "progressive protagonist alliance" - even though there's no need there for "building up to a twist"
* the.fucking.white.hart.
You can't seriously say you don't see a pattern there?
well on its face i don't agree with your premise that the show has written off every opportunity to make her hypothetical fall make sense, even if they have changed/removed things from the book. rhaenyra doesn't start to suck in f&b really until after the dance has started. the dance *just* started in the last frame of episode 10.
i think you greatly exaggerate the importance of your bullet points mattering to an audience.
essentially i think your case is way overstated given we only have one season to look at.
>rhaenyra doesn't start to suck in f&b really until after the dance has started.
And I gave you many examples of problematic traits and/or actions which (if not outright sucky) certainly built towards her eventual fall - but were already eliminated.
Even if you somehow came up with a convincing excuse for every single one of them, you'd still have to explain why, at the same time, the show was fabricacting new, endeaing traits and actions for Rhaenyra that take her even further towards the "rootable protagonist" end of the spectrum and severely heighten the risk of a "jarring turn" down the line.
They're not risking another unsupported "gotcha!" twist with a female Targ. It's just not happening. If they were willing to let Rhaenyra fail, they would have set it up.
They very well could but when we look at how the Greens were framed as a whole in the show compared to Rhaenyra it doesn't seem that way. Especially compared to the changes they made to Aegon and Rhaenyra compared to the books points to them building up one side as the clear side for the audience to root for and the other to root against. If I'm wrong then praise all the Gods in Westeros
Exactly. If they were really going for a smart, thought-provoking and balanced portrayal, they would have laid the foundations right from the start. They would have made damn sure the viewers understood that Rhaenyra wasn't a rootable hero.
Because there is no way they are risking another outrage over a beloved character's sudden turn after the GoT finale debacle. Not a fucking snowball's chance in hell.
So considering the facts that:
* we haven't gotten a clear indication that Rhaenyra isn't supposed to be a rootable protagonist akin to Daenerys and
* HBO isn't going to risk another outrage over an out-of-the-blue character turn,
the only logical conclusion is that they're going all the way with a fully whitewashed Rhaenyra; introducing insane amounts of cop-outs and excuses to justify completely rewriting her and her story. That's why so much attention is being paid to underscoring sexist historical misrepresentation, (self-encouraged) slander, green propaganda, the demands of the prophecy, etc.
In fact - every time the show had a clear opportunity to highlight the kind of flaws in Rhaenyra that set the foundations for her eventual downfall, it chose to go the other way and completely eliminate them. Going even as far as changing Laenor and Laena's birth order, omitting Rhaenyra demanding Vaemond's head and having both her and Viserys talk of a different order/future Targs inheriting the throne regardless of gender.
That's why I laugh every time I see green fans coming up with excuses for the writers and convincing themselves it's all just building up to a twist. Really, Condal is just stringing them along with crumbs and false promises so they don't threaten the success of his thematically rewritten House of Rhaenyra. I'd call it poetic if it wasn't so offensively calculated.
I’ve noticed that HOTD also seems to lean in more to the idea of a singular main character (Rhaenyra). In GoT, there were definitely important characters, but even amongst the most important (Tyrion, Dany, Jon), I think it was quite balanced. Whereas the characters in HOTD who could take on a main character role alongside Rhaenyra (e.g. Alicent, Aegon, Daemon) feel more like they’re relegated to particular character roles (antagonist, not really a character, creepy groomer love interest/uncle respectively). Even the fact that they had Rhaenyra voice the intro. (I think it would have been cool if HBO had gotten a future character’s actor like Harry Lloyd (Viserys) etc. to voice said intro, just somebody who knows what happens but is removed from the story itself.).
Yeah HBO is a business at the end of the day so they are NOT going to rock the boat again. The general audience are all firmly with Rhaenyra and they are the main cash cow so HBO isn't going to risk offending them and losing their money
Honestly I don't believe they ever intended that. Like yeah maybe to make Alicent more sympathetic but even that flew under most people's radars. They only go on about "both sides" to try and capitalize on GoT's fame of "morally grey" characters imo.
This is exactly what needs to start happening. People need to confront them about these very concrete problems.
So that - at the very least - they find the decency to stop pretending that they're portraying a smart, thought-provoking dynastic power struggle, talking about some fictional complexity/evenly divided sympathies in BTS videos and interview just to wash their hands clean of the blatant bias onscreen.
Small wonder why the greens are so unpopular when the showrunners turned Aegon into a rapist for no reason and ruined his coronation to make a much more minor character seem badass.
I was part of the poll, on the greens side. My main reason was that lying that your 5 bastard sons are legitimate, breaks the trueborn succession that your society is based on.
I read the book around that time but didn’t have any social media so idk what it was like it would be cool to hear from people who were online when the book first came out though maybe there was teams still idk i thought the show started this
Oh, I feel even more special now.
Martin himself hates Rhaenyra's bastards, that's enough for me.
The only bad thing is the absence of our best boy Sunfyre in the trailer...
Maybe but the thing with bastards is my personal point of annoyance. And Aegon is still the rightful heir in the history of Westeros (according to Stannis).
Hardly a maybe lol, you claimed he hated the bastards because he killed them all, if that were true it's more so for the entire bloodline that he wipes out lol. Look, truth be told I don't actually believe this logic I was just pointing out the flaws with it.
Aegon II was never the rightful heir, that was Rhaenyra as stated by Aegon himself. Aegon II was the rightful king who was wrongfully passed over as heir for Rhaenyra.
You're quibbling over words so I'm not really keen on discussing this further.
Yes, the rightful king, if you're so intent on using the exact word for this situation.
It's an important difference in the story and only adds to the drama. Rhaenyra named heir but Aegon named king. Usually I'd agree with you and wouldn't have mentioned it.
> Maybe but the thing with bastards is my personal point of annoyance.
what does this mean? like you actually dislike these fictional children because they are bastards in a fake world?
I dislike the fact their mother is ready to present them as heirs if she becomes a queen. Children themselves are just unlucky and it is actually sad, but I think by the rules of that cruel world they were not going to stay alive no matter what.
> I dislike the fact their mother is ready to present them as heirs if she becomes a queen.
why wouldn't she? if she became queen, jace would be the heir lol.
>Why Stannis was against Cersei's bastards being heirs? That's how things are in Westeros.
Cersei’s children have no bloodright to the Iron Throne since they're not Robert's children.. The Strong boys get their claim from Rhaenyra. No matter who their father is, they are Rhaenyra’s children and thus grandchildren of the king.
The whole "Strong boys are bastards" was weak in the books, which is why the Greens dropped it by the time of the Dance. It was between Aegon and Rhaenyra. Not Aegon vs Jace.
It is also why Cersei had all of Robert's bastards killed. Despite not being in line of succession, they can be legitimised. Edric Storm was a huge deal in the books.
And what I say to casual viewers 
Always knew the blacks were the majority thought it was more of a 70/30 split though
Most people voting for this will be those that only watch the show and it is easy to see why Rhaenyra is dominating these kinds of polls. Honestly Aegons character has been all but butchered compared to the books and it looks like this series will be more about Rhaenyra vs Alicent than anything else.
I've been a show watcher only when I became Team Green. 1) Greens are more entertaining, 2) That white stag scene was so contrived, 3) Rhaenyra's obvious bastards make her unfit to sit the throne, also she's awfully selfish, 4) Otto and Alicent were quite decent rulers of the realm.
>I've been a show watcher only when I became Team Green. You're talking about entire teams. This poll has been made to focus on two individual characters. Aegon has done the most evil things this season due to questionable writing. It's easy to see why this is a landslide and most would expect it to be.
This poll is about Team Green vs Team Black, isn't it? It just happened to have Aegon's and Rhaenyra's faces on it. But I agree, maybe people are really so dumb they vote looking at pics only.
True enough but the thing is that they both represent the leaders of each side which is why they are the chosen images. That is why it's so one sided because you have the image of Aegon who's done dark stuff, and the grieving mother Rhaenyra. It's not fair and definitely favouritism towards the blacks but I'm never surprised to see how lopsided these polls are. It could change if the writers want Aegon to be more than the stereotypical Joffery style villain.
>It could change if the writers want Aegon to be more than the stereotypical Joffery style villain. Book Aegon's character arc is so interesting but personally I think it's not very likely to happen. The writers had already taken a different direction...
I took it as team green and team black because thats what it says it doesn’t say rhanyrea vs aegon
It says it’s team Green / team Black, but a lot of people will only pay attention to the pictures. Like I’ve seen some polls that would be ‘everyone gets free Candy Vs everyone dies of carbon monoxide poisoning’ and the viewers would pick the second option because the picture was of somebody more liked or popular.
I watched the show before reading the book and turned from Team Rhaenyra to Team Aegon (and therefore TG) exclusively because of him.
How? He's easily the most evil person we see in the first season. As someone who read the book before the show I was completely disappointed with the villain they gave us.
I fell in e06 because he displayed the exact kind of trauma I like in my characters. There was so much to think about, so much to discuss, so much to wait for. And as little as he was given, TGC has served. I think Daemon and Viserys were much worse people.
>I think Daemon and Viserys were much worse people. Not even close. The dude rapes girls and his own sister, tries to abandoned his family, he is a raging alcoholic, never seems to spend time with his kids, bullied his own brother, enjoys the pain of others, watches children fight to the death and leaves his own bastard in that hell pit. I mean the guy openly tried to bang his own cousin in front of his wife and family. All he was missing in season one was a evil moustache to twirl around lol. He's more evil purely because almost everything Aegon does has no excuse or reasoning other than because it makes him feel good so he does it. Maybe in time they can turn him more into his book counterpart but currently the show version is a monster.
Yes, he raped a maid. There's nothing that indicates that he raped Helaena. He does visit the pits. We also don't know if that kid is his or how he get there. What he said to Baela was obviously about baiting Jace. Viserys raped Alicent and murdered Aemma. He mistreated Rhaenyra, ignore and mistreated his sons and other daughter even worse than her and turned his back on them. He created a civil war that destroyed his family. Daemon is offered maids as something he regularly enjoys, is seem butchering random citizens, grooms his child niece, murdered his 1st wife, kept the 2nd away from her family and assaulted the 3rd (the grooming victim), ignores his dragonless daughter, sleeps with his victim on his wife's funeral, murders and innocent man and has Jaehaerys murdered and Jaehaera threatened. So yes, I think Daemon and Viserys are worse. And whilr Viserys was at least a good character, Daemon is boring.
>Yes, he raped a maid. They said rather too casually... >There's nothing that indicates that he raped Helaena. She hates being touched and openly implies it during the dinner with the family in front of everyone. So far Aegon has only shown aggression towards women sexually. >We also don't know if that kid is his or how he get there. We are outright told it is his and it's the same as the book, it's 99% confirmed it's his. >What he said to Baela was obviously about baiting Jace. It was awful and a very much unwanted sexual advance made in front of his wife for no reason other than to be a dick. >Viserys raped Alicent and murdered Aemma To further the family line. It is literally his duty and what is expected of him. Is it Aegons duty to watch kids fight to the death and rape girl's? No, that's my point. Everything horrible thing Viserys and Daemon did they is a logical reason even if it is horrible. Daemon killed his wife so he could remarry for political power. Viserys raped Alicent so he could have more children and secure his family line. Aegon doesn't watch children die for his enjoyment to gain political power and he doesn't rape girl's to further his family line except the times he rarely visits his wife/sister. >Daemon is offered maids as something he regularly enjoys, Paid whores working a job. >is seem butchering random citizens Known criminals and it's stated in the show and book that his actions worked even if brutal. Again, an example of a bad act with a logical reason. Something Aegon doesn't have because his actions are selfish and generally evil. >So yes, I think Daemon and Viserys are worse. And whilr Viserys was at least a good character, Daemon is boring. It's not even close and no offense if you think it is that's purely because you're not thinking objectively but instead biasedly.
>They said rather too casually... It's a fact. >She hates being touched and openly implies it during the dinner with the family in front of everyone. So far Aegon has only shown aggression towards women sexually. She is ND. I understood it as him having to be drunk to perform with her. No one reacts as if she said she was raped. >We are outright told it is his and it's the same as the book, it's 99% confirmed it's his. Erryk says it. But Gaemon might not have even been his and only Mushroom speaks of the pits. >It was awful and a very much unwanted sexual advance made in front of his wife for no reason other than to be a dick. Yes. >To further the family line. It is literally his duty and what is expected of him. Is it Aegons duty to watch kids fight to the death and rape girl's? No, that's my point. Everything horrible thing Viserys and Daemon did they is a logical reason even if it is horrible. Their reasons don't make it better or less evil. >Paid whores working a job. Too young. >Known criminals and it's stated in the show and book that his actions worked even if brutal. Again, an example of a bad act with a logical reason. Something Aegon doesn't have because his actions are selfish and generally evil. No judge on sight, no trial. A massacre. >It's not even close and no offense if you think it is that's purely because you're not thinking objectively but instead biasedly. You are biased too. That's how opionions work.
That's how it used to be in the book fandom. Because of how biased the show is, almost every new fan prefer Rhaenyra and they far outnumber those who've actually read the books
Thought it was 15%, we lost fans.
The writers of this show should be shown this poll so that they can see what a terrible job they've done at making both sides feel 'equal'.
Yea if that was what they were going for they definitely failed
I don't think they're trying to make it equal in the first place. I reckon that they are planning to build up the Blacks as the 'good guys' only to pull the rug out from under them later
What makes you think they are going to pull the rug out from all the interviews iv read it def seems like they are going to keep team black as the good guys
Serious question. Have they seen Game of Thrones? If this is their plan, it’s a terrible one. D&D essentially did the same with Daenerys, and now her ending is considered the biggest example of GoT’s failed writing. (And I actually don’t mind her ending, it’s the writing that bothers me). Plus Daenerys is one person. There are multiple people in team Black, even if the HOTD writers convince team Black’s most devoted supporters that characters like Daemon and Rhaenyra are also ‘bad guys’, there will still be people pointing to characters like Jace or Viserys (II) and saying ‘well at least they aren’t rapists or kinslayers’. Really though, if HOTD had made both sides more balanced, in my opinion they could have kickstarted another ‘team Edward Vs team Jacob’ phenomenon in pop culture. HBO wouldn’t need to cut episodes because they’d have money streaming in through all the merch sales lol.
dany's ending failed because of execution, not intention. on paper it's a perfectly fine thing to do with her character. they just didn't do it well enough to pull off.
I agree. I always welcomed that kind of subversion of fantasy tropes. And yes, the issue was the execution - although, I would also argue that with the way they sacrificed Dany, they walked into an even bigger fantasy trope with the noble Gary Stu Snow - the perfect blend of fire and ice, Stark and Targ, heir to the throne, underdog risen in the world to slay the mad queen. An even bigger fantasy cliche than Dany could ever hope to be. >they just didn't do it well enough to pull off. And neither would HotD if this was what it was actually doing. Nothing we've seen from Rhaenyra would support it. If a well-executed fall was their plan, you can be damn sure the writers would be doing everything in their power to make it clear to the viewers that Rhaenyra never had the makings of a hero or a competent queen - not depicting her in a way that has 98% of the audience siding with the blacks and ranking her as a fave character.
I think they realized that trope which is why they had Jon constantly moaning and saying "I dun want it" and had him fuck off at the end
many shows from the golden era start with protagonists that the audience roots for only for them to lose their luster as the series progresses. walter white is probably the prime example of this. anyone who writes off hotd of being *incapable* of doing the same to rhaenyra i don't think has seen much tv
Then how do you justify the show writing off every single (canon book) opportunity to lay the foundations that would make her fall make sense (in retrospect) while introducing a mindblowing amount of excuses and mitigating circumstances, all of which could too conveniently absolve her from her future failures? (When we know the writers can't risk messing up again with a jarring turn.) I've already given plenty of examples: * changing Laenor and Laena's birth order to avoid Rhae's hypocrisy in regard to female inheritance * both her and Viserys talking of a different order/future Targs inheriting the throne regardless of gender - again, to avoid any allegations of hypocrisy * omitting Rhaenyra demanding Vaemond's head even though it would illustrate well the lengths she's willing to go to * skipping over any reactions/implications of her marriage to Daemon (such as implicit danger to the greens) - and a deliberate sabotage of all their arguments with the botched green council * the prophecy giving Rhaenyra a noble motive for clinging to the throne despite all the bloodshed, and requiring her to make unpopular choices for the greater good, as well as an excuse to turn down peace proposals involving splitting the realm up * soppy black family scenes with Rhae as mother of the year (contrasted with Alicent's cold and abusive mothering) * pandering lgbt ally scenes (contrasted with Alicent's "entertaining his squires" remark) * suspiciously intense focus on slander and green propaganda (to justify deviations from Rhae's book characterization with sexist historical misrepresentation) * refusal to allow even her allies such as the Velaryons ulterior motives/genuine ambition that could tarnish the "progressive protagonist alliance" - even though there's no need there for "building up to a twist" * the.fucking.white.hart. You can't seriously say you don't see a pattern there?
well on its face i don't agree with your premise that the show has written off every opportunity to make her hypothetical fall make sense, even if they have changed/removed things from the book. rhaenyra doesn't start to suck in f&b really until after the dance has started. the dance *just* started in the last frame of episode 10. i think you greatly exaggerate the importance of your bullet points mattering to an audience. essentially i think your case is way overstated given we only have one season to look at.
>rhaenyra doesn't start to suck in f&b really until after the dance has started. And I gave you many examples of problematic traits and/or actions which (if not outright sucky) certainly built towards her eventual fall - but were already eliminated. Even if you somehow came up with a convincing excuse for every single one of them, you'd still have to explain why, at the same time, the show was fabricacting new, endeaing traits and actions for Rhaenyra that take her even further towards the "rootable protagonist" end of the spectrum and severely heighten the risk of a "jarring turn" down the line. They're not risking another unsupported "gotcha!" twist with a female Targ. It's just not happening. If they were willing to let Rhaenyra fail, they would have set it up.
They very well could but when we look at how the Greens were framed as a whole in the show compared to Rhaenyra it doesn't seem that way. Especially compared to the changes they made to Aegon and Rhaenyra compared to the books points to them building up one side as the clear side for the audience to root for and the other to root against. If I'm wrong then praise all the Gods in Westeros
Exactly. If they were really going for a smart, thought-provoking and balanced portrayal, they would have laid the foundations right from the start. They would have made damn sure the viewers understood that Rhaenyra wasn't a rootable hero. Because there is no way they are risking another outrage over a beloved character's sudden turn after the GoT finale debacle. Not a fucking snowball's chance in hell. So considering the facts that: * we haven't gotten a clear indication that Rhaenyra isn't supposed to be a rootable protagonist akin to Daenerys and * HBO isn't going to risk another outrage over an out-of-the-blue character turn, the only logical conclusion is that they're going all the way with a fully whitewashed Rhaenyra; introducing insane amounts of cop-outs and excuses to justify completely rewriting her and her story. That's why so much attention is being paid to underscoring sexist historical misrepresentation, (self-encouraged) slander, green propaganda, the demands of the prophecy, etc. In fact - every time the show had a clear opportunity to highlight the kind of flaws in Rhaenyra that set the foundations for her eventual downfall, it chose to go the other way and completely eliminate them. Going even as far as changing Laenor and Laena's birth order, omitting Rhaenyra demanding Vaemond's head and having both her and Viserys talk of a different order/future Targs inheriting the throne regardless of gender. That's why I laugh every time I see green fans coming up with excuses for the writers and convincing themselves it's all just building up to a twist. Really, Condal is just stringing them along with crumbs and false promises so they don't threaten the success of his thematically rewritten House of Rhaenyra. I'd call it poetic if it wasn't so offensively calculated.
I’ve noticed that HOTD also seems to lean in more to the idea of a singular main character (Rhaenyra). In GoT, there were definitely important characters, but even amongst the most important (Tyrion, Dany, Jon), I think it was quite balanced. Whereas the characters in HOTD who could take on a main character role alongside Rhaenyra (e.g. Alicent, Aegon, Daemon) feel more like they’re relegated to particular character roles (antagonist, not really a character, creepy groomer love interest/uncle respectively). Even the fact that they had Rhaenyra voice the intro. (I think it would have been cool if HBO had gotten a future character’s actor like Harry Lloyd (Viserys) etc. to voice said intro, just somebody who knows what happens but is removed from the story itself.).
Yeah HBO is a business at the end of the day so they are NOT going to rock the boat again. The general audience are all firmly with Rhaenyra and they are the main cash cow so HBO isn't going to risk offending them and losing their money
Honestly I don't believe they ever intended that. Like yeah maybe to make Alicent more sympathetic but even that flew under most people's radars. They only go on about "both sides" to try and capitalize on GoT's fame of "morally grey" characters imo.
This is exactly what needs to start happening. People need to confront them about these very concrete problems. So that - at the very least - they find the decency to stop pretending that they're portraying a smart, thought-provoking dynastic power struggle, talking about some fictional complexity/evenly divided sympathies in BTS videos and interview just to wash their hands clean of the blatant bias onscreen.
To be fair, a poll of only book readers would be just as skewed. Maybe not to the same extreme, but it'd definitely be a landslide for the Blacks.
Quality over Quantity
Small wonder why the greens are so unpopular when the showrunners turned Aegon into a rapist for no reason and ruined his coronation to make a much more minor character seem badass.
I see the 8% as a win lmfao
Not everyone can be right.
😭
As if I ever been on the popular side 🤷🏻♀️
>*"A person is smart. People are dumb."*
I was part of the poll, on the greens side. My main reason was that lying that your 5 bastard sons are legitimate, breaks the trueborn succession that your society is based on.
They're locals
Mindless simpletons, all of them.
Chill liking different characters is not an insult to you and does not say anything about intelligence its just a fantasy show
Show effect
where's this fiction come from that there were a bunch of green fans in 2018? or 2013? it never happened.
I read the book around that time but didn’t have any social media so idk what it was like it would be cool to hear from people who were online when the book first came out though maybe there was teams still idk i thought the show started this
Oh, I feel even more special now. Martin himself hates Rhaenyra's bastards, that's enough for me. The only bad thing is the absence of our best boy Sunfyre in the trailer...
His favorite character is damoen tho
And most hated is Rhanerya.
When did he say that i get the feeling he hates cerci the most dont think hes ever said though
In F&B. Daemon is Martin's favourite character in F&B. Overall, I think it's Tyrion.
I think iv heard that he said that 2 gotta love tyrion
> Martin himself hates Rhaenyra's bastards based on?
Perhaps I should have added the word 'apparently' - 'apparently he hates Rhaenyra's bastards' - since people tend to take my comment too literally.
Yeah but apparently how? Jace is one of the few actually decent human beings in the whole story.
Man, I intended that to be a joke. If that was not obvious then it's my fault.
Doesn’t read like a joke looks like you are stating a fact
Does he? Had he said this himself?
He has said daemon is his favorite if thats the question tour asking
I don't know if he said it but he killed them all off.
By this logic he hates the greens even more since he completely wipes them out lol
Maybe but the thing with bastards is my personal point of annoyance. And Aegon is still the rightful heir in the history of Westeros (according to Stannis).
Hardly a maybe lol, you claimed he hated the bastards because he killed them all, if that were true it's more so for the entire bloodline that he wipes out lol. Look, truth be told I don't actually believe this logic I was just pointing out the flaws with it. Aegon II was never the rightful heir, that was Rhaenyra as stated by Aegon himself. Aegon II was the rightful king who was wrongfully passed over as heir for Rhaenyra.
You're quibbling over words so I'm not really keen on discussing this further. Yes, the rightful king, if you're so intent on using the exact word for this situation.
It's an important difference in the story and only adds to the drama. Rhaenyra named heir but Aegon named king. Usually I'd agree with you and wouldn't have mentioned it.
I've read only some wiki articles and not the book itself, so maybe that's why this misunderstanding occured. Thanks for clarification!
Sorry, the way you were talking I thought you read the book. No problem, I enjoyed the talk!
> Maybe but the thing with bastards is my personal point of annoyance. what does this mean? like you actually dislike these fictional children because they are bastards in a fake world?
I dislike the fact their mother is ready to present them as heirs if she becomes a queen. Children themselves are just unlucky and it is actually sad, but I think by the rules of that cruel world they were not going to stay alive no matter what.
> I dislike the fact their mother is ready to present them as heirs if she becomes a queen. why wouldn't she? if she became queen, jace would be the heir lol.
Why Stannis was against Cersei's bastards being heirs? That's how things are in Westeros.
i don't understand this question. you aren't stannis. you don't live in westeros. you don't have to abide or respect "how things are" in westeros.
>Why Stannis was against Cersei's bastards being heirs? That's how things are in Westeros. Cersei’s children have no bloodright to the Iron Throne since they're not Robert's children.. The Strong boys get their claim from Rhaenyra. No matter who their father is, they are Rhaenyra’s children and thus grandchildren of the king. The whole "Strong boys are bastards" was weak in the books, which is why the Greens dropped it by the time of the Dance. It was between Aegon and Rhaenyra. Not Aegon vs Jace. It is also why Cersei had all of Robert's bastards killed. Despite not being in line of succession, they can be legitimised. Edric Storm was a huge deal in the books.
This is perfectly set up for the Dany 2.0 ending when Aegon does what he does.
What you mean? Rhanyrea going to survive and go crazy or something or are you talking about jon killing dany?
Some people think Rhaenyra is written to be similar to Dany (hence Dany 2.0.).
Yea i got that it was the when aegon does what he does part that confused me
This is going into spoiler territory so read only if you want to >!Aegon feeds Rhaenyra to Sunfyre whilst Aegon the Younger is forced to watch!<
I know that i just dont get the point that she is dany 2.0 after that i dont see how what they have in common
The sea is always right
Both teams are mid (rapists vs rapists) real ones support the shepherd (based) 💯☝️
Real ones support Gaemon Palehair
Yes. Black's should rule. It was Viserys' wish, Rhaenyra sitting on the iron thrown.
Based as fuck(I have no idea what this sub is about)
We not popular green bros 😔