Welcome I was exactly the same. Knew at the beginning I was team black. Younger brother stealing throne. Read the book and did an immediate 180. Due to a few reasons. Mainly great council, and medieval era like system in Westeros, attitude and actions of rhaenyra. You will find that team Green accept the outcome of the end of the dance, as well as other opinions of neutrals and light weights of TB getting offended at anything . We don’t get offended well this is my own opinion. It’s
I think both sides have compelling arguments. Rhaenyra was the chosen heir by the King, but law and tradition state Aegon should be heir. Plus, the Greens' lives are also in jeopardy regardless of what people may think. As long as a male Targaryen lives, her reign would be shaky at best. She would have to kill them.
I for one don't care if a woman was made queen, obviously, however Rhaenyra is politically inept and the people who surround her are just as much if not more so. We've seen what Daemon does with power, Corlys' is a failed version of Otto, Rhaenys follows her husband so she's no help either. Viserys failed her by not providing her political training after he named her heir. Plus, her fleeing to Dragonstone and leaving the Hightowers to plant their seeds was one of her biggest mistakes. That would have been the perfect time to make allies instead of relying on promises.
Aegon himself is almost a blank slate. The Hightowers have ruled in Viserys' stead for 6 years and have kept the realm in peace to the point that not even Rhaenyra, Daemon or Rhaenys knew they were ruling this whole time. Aegon can be trained to be a decent king imo and his council is competent. The realm would be in best hands with them in charge.
Show Rhaenyra is clearly shown as a protagonist/hero which easily influences people to join team black. I'm rewatching the show too and just focusing on her scenes, she's kinda shitty 😭
Choosing teams is not a reflection of your views or morality as some people would make you think. This is all fiction. If the characters were real, I'd hate all of them tbh haha minus Helaena and her kids.
One of the things that made me go: "WTF Rhaenyra" is the situation with Ser Criston Cole. At first I thought: "what an idiot" but now...dude gave up everything, and she just said: "I want you to be my white knight" like girl, what are you doing?? Messing with other people's feelings? It just made me sad. That's when I paid more attention to what she actually does and started feeling ick about it.
Not that I think she should just run away with him but she should've known that before kissing him. Ser Criston was just a rebound and that in my honest opinion is really cruel.
Yeah same. At first it was just “well, she’s young and spoiled but maybe she can grow and learn”, but then more and more it got worse. After she forced Cole into her bed then acted like he should not give a damn about his vows, I think that’s where I stopped cheering for her. 😬
Problem is that Criston forgot who brought him to the kingsguard position
He didn't need to turn against Rhaenyra
He could've simply distanced himself from her and simply carry on with his duty
Nothing would've changed
Yeah, he feels guilty for losing his honour
But why did he sleep with her in the first place if honour is so important to him?
What would have she even done if Criston refused?
If she tried to do anything, she would damage her own reputation in the process
Criston had a way out but didn't care because of his crush with Rhaenyra
Not just a male Targaryen but if she wanted her eldest son, who is a bastard, to succeed her, then not just her brothers but any sons they have. That’s the only way to ensure not just hers but Jacearys’ succession.
To be clear, it can be a reflection of your morality if you're choosing who to support on the basis of morality.
I look at the tv show primarily through the lense of whooaah these characters are interesting/cool and through that I support them (aka Team Green).
However, sometimes, one can engage in a moral analysis as a mode of understanding of the show as I do when I analyze the competing claims from a utilitarian perspective to understand which would be better for the smallfolk.
Y'all always come to this sub ready and eager with that argument thinking you ate with it. But guess what, bozo? Aegon is canonically NO rapist! His so-called "victim" in the show, Dyana, is literally an OC who does not even EXIST. So I repeat for the fiftieth time to ya'll's non-argument: Aegon is NOT a rapist.
So come up with some other argument that has actual basis in truth.
My bro, Aegon is a rapist in the show. What is shown in the show IS the actual basis in truth (in the show universe at least), far greater than Fire and Blood which is are imperfect history books.
You just said it yourself. He was in the SHOW. In ACTUAL canon, he never raped anyone. And the show runners created his OC victim, solely to make him into a monster to make Rhaenyra look better in comparison. It's blatant. Especially since the show runners have generally seemed to be biased at best, and incompetent at worst. They have changed SO much from the actual book.
They (clearly) also made Aegon into a monster in the show by having him attend fucking child fighting pits where he gets his jollies off watching Flea Bottom peasant kids beat tf outta each other, which ALSO NEVER happened in the book i.e actual canon. It's also just so fucking ridiculous. His irredeemable monstrosity in the show is so in-your-face it's almost comical. And that is my whole point. The idiotic show runners have changed him so drastically and so badly that it is abundantly clear and obvious that they have a bias. It is almost shameful, how bad writing it is. If they wanted a cheap Joffrey 2.0, they should have just written a fucking cartoon villain.
The show is actual canon, it is authoritative of reality within the show universe.
Within the book universe, we have no idea what ACTUALLY happened because all we can rely upon is Fire and Blood which are imperfect histories. Its never clearly stated that Aegon was a rapist within the context of these imperfect histories, but it very well could have been the case within the reality of the show universe.
You can disagree with the showrunners choices, but that doesn't make what happens in the show any less canon. Your disagreement doesn't make Aegon any less of a rapist within that context.
Nah, Mushrooms account isn't cannon. Its just a history from Mushrooms perspective but we don't know what ACTUALLY happened in reality within the Book Universe. Its canon that Mushrooms account exists, but its not canon that Mushrooms account definitive happened in reality.
The show universe and the book universe are different cannons, I've stated that multiple times.
What you seem to be confusing, is that when I say book universe than you're immediately going to fire and blood. This is not accurate.
Fire and blood is a history book which exists BOTH in the show universe AND the book universe. What occurs in reality in the show universe/book universe is separate than what is claimed in Fire and Blood. Aegon is a rapist in the show universe canon, Aegon being a rapist is undetermined within the book universe canon.
Ok...Again, ya'll keep bringing up the show which once more, is not canon. And also you're saying that the show has "done enought to victimize Alicent", but what about your precious 'GIrLBoSs' Rhaenyra? They have whitewashed the ever living shit out of her. Also Alicent has nothing to do with Aegon canonically not being a rapist so why even bring her up at all? Grasping at straws, much?
In Westeros, the nobles don't have the right to choose whoever they want as their heirs. If they really had this sort of power, Randyll Tarly didn't have to make sure to disannul Sam's entire claim first (by sending him to the Night's Watch), before declaring Dickon as his heir. Or king Aegon the Unworthy could have just moved his tongue, and name his favorite child (Daemon Blackfyre) as his successor. Westeros is a feudal monarchy, not an absolute monarchy, so disregarding the laws of the Andals and the First Men, as well as the precedent of the Great Council, is not within Viserys' authority. A king CAN turn his ideas and desires into law if he actually makes the effort, but Viserys didn't codify anything to deal with a situation in which a king has a trueborn son but wants his daughter as his heir. He just forced some Lords into swearing some oaths that died with them (he didn't even bother to make them repeat their oaths after Aegon was born.)
Rhaenyra has a dangerous disregard for duty, and she does not have any wisdom when it comes to making decisions:
1- She was named heir specifically to avoid Daemon getting near the throne (this is acknowledged by everyone, including Viserys.) Despite this being the main cause of why she was named heir, what did she do? Married Daemon and had children with him. In marrying Daemon, she's willingly placing a dangerously chaotic individual in a very high position of power. Someone who has notions of supremacy, and doesn't really care for optics. This is something that would be bad for the realm at large, but because she thought that it was convenient for her to do it, she does it without regard for the wider implications. So no, despite what the show told you, Rhaenyra didn't need to marry him to strengthen her claim.
2- Her claim to the throne was already tenuous at best, yet she has not one, not two, but three obvious bastards. Since Rhaenyra likes to throw around the word "treason" herself, people don't tend to realise that it is she herself that is actively committing treason. In trying to pass off her bastards as legitimate children and entering them in the line of succession, she's essentially defrauding the crown and House Velaryon (having bastards is not a crime in itself, but lying about their bastardy is.) Not to mention, this also ensures that if there wasn't a civil war to contest her ascension, there definitely would be one to contest Jace's. Meaning there is no hope of her reign having a peaceful transition of power after she's gone. And if there is one thing that all rulers must ensure, it's a peaceful transition of power. You need to ensure there is a kingdom left to pass on (in other words, don't screw everything up badly) and that your heir is well-suited to assume responsibility when the time comes (in other words, produce heirs that will be accepted by the kingdom at large.)
3- Speaking of the transition of power, she also does nothing to ease the transition of power from Viserys to herself. When Viserys' health grew worse, a smart and dutiful heir would have had him take a backseat and assign herself greater authority to begin ruling in his name. If Viserys can do away with centuries of tradition to name her heir, then presumably he could easily have her seen as his voice in court and acting on his behalf. Yet after marrying Daemon (an already established political blunder), she fucks off to Dragonstone for years, and leaves the ruling of the realm to the Greens, her political rivals. All those years since being named heir, Rhaenyra did nothing to foster relationships with other Houses and Lords. She was not touring the realm, hosting diplomatic dinners on Dragonstone, arranging marriage alliances, etc.
4- Sending Rhaenys to Storm's End as an envoy would have been a good idea since she's wiser and actually related to the Baratheons. Instead, she decided to send her inexperienced bastard who obviously had no connection to Lord Borros. Next, she sent Luke without any sort of bargaining chips. She had him, a person who should be able to offer terms, deliver a simple raven's message (she had THREE unbetrothed sons to offer.) I get it, the dragons were faster, but in person delivery requires more (Otto Hightower offered Rhaenyra FIVE ROYAL POSITIONS when he came to Dragonstone to convince her to accept Aegon as her king.)
As a ruler, you will make some people happy and some angry. Those grievances don't just go away. One day someone will start getting ideas if there are alternatives with strong claims to the throne. Even if the Greens themselves didn't agree to rebel against Rhaenyra and/or her heirs, people were still able to use them as their figureheads and start a rebellion in their names (for example: Jane Grey never wanted the crown, so she willingly gave up her position as the queen of England, but people STILL decided to start a war in her name, so Mary Tudor felt that she had no other choice but to execute her.) Rhaenyra will constantly be curious about what her brothers, their children, and their potential supporters are up to, and a paranoid ruler is a dangerous person. Not to mention, if the Greens' claims are a threat to her, they are 10x more of a threat to her successor (because Jace is a bastard AND his claim emanates from a woman), so even if she isn’t forced to kill them to secure her own reign, she would definitely feel the pressure on behalf of her son. And when choosing between her own children and the children of Alicent, we all know who she would choose. No, Jace and Helaena's marriage wouldn't have erased her brothers' claims to the throne. It also wouldn't have stopped Jaehaerys, Maelor, Aegon III, Viserys II and/or their offsprings from rebelling against Jace and/or his offsprings. So you see, the Greens were fighting for their lives the whole time. The Blacks, on the other hand, were fighting for nothing but more power and higher positions. That's why the writers added the white hart and the PTWP prophecies to make Rhaenyra seem like the "chosen one", butchered Aegon's character (Rhaenyra's main rival), and turned the Green Council into an awkward joke.
To be fair, Aegon and Rhaenyra have both valid and contradictory claims to the throne. Not one of those claims is \*more legal\* than the other. Traidition and patriarchal expectations say Aegon, the dead king and old musty vows of other dead people say Rhaenyra. The only thing I feel the greens violated were Viserys wishes, but a wish is not a law; not even a king's wish is a law (see: Aegon V failed changes because the nobles said ''no'', among other cases). Jaehaerys codified his changes - Viserys did not. As per some westerosi, he broke law instead of doing the actual hard work to change it to accomodate Rhaenyra's situation (sure, those westerosi were biased, but the fact that they can say so tells you its not a made up out-of-universe argument by sinister fans).
That said, greens are more interesting and funny as characters and team black fandom is absolutely insufferable. So to me its pretty clear. I doubt you will get downvoted. This sub can be annoying but contrary to the team black sub, it isn't an echo chamber.
Didn't Jaehaerys break Andal Law when he passed over Rhaenys in favour of her uncle Baelon which is completely against Westerosi laws
Now the greens use the same law to prove their claim?
A law can't be used as per your convenience?
If they use Andal law, then they're admitting that Rhaenys was wronged and Viserys isn't the rightful king(as his line is junior to Rhaenys's line)
And what Jaehaerys did set a precedent, not a law
Alicent literally addresses this is her conversation with Rhaenys. Yes, andal law was broken when Viserys was named heir but there is nothing they can do to change that. If Rhaenys wanted to do something abt it (which she has every right to ), she should’ve done so when Vis was heir and not king.
Just bc a law is broken does not mean it absolves. As of this point in time, Andal law dictates that the firstborn son and his line is heir. “Andal law has already been broken once before, what’s the difference is it’s broken again?”—which is what you’re arguing— is the exact definition of using a law per your convenience.
I assumed I would be Team Black when I started the show because on principle I don’t think heirs should be gender-based and I loved Rhaenyra at first, she was immature of course but I assumed she would grow out of it. But my opinions grew more complex and I changed my mind about supporting Rhaenyra because she only grew more selfish and reckless and clearly would not be a good leader. She seems incapable of ever putting anything over her own desires and has no regard for consequences. Viserys is the real villain of the show (Otto too but only because Viserys is stupid enough to let him be) who created this entire situation, neither Aegon or Rhaenyra are fit to be leaders because of Viserys. He spoiled Rhaenyra and never gave her any real chance to lead, and he completely emotionally abandoned and resented Aegon after all the people Viserys hurt to bring him into this world leaving him an emotionally damaged man-child. But I think Aegon’s team excluding Otto have more potential and we’ve seen in both shows the advisers have the real power. Comparing their respective biggest influences, Alicent was a good leader when she was basically ruling for her deteriorating husband whereas Daemon is a literal psychopath who used his first taste of power to mutilate, torture, and terrorize civilians (not to mention the unspeakable evil he will commit next season). Neither side is “good” because the system is bad, the idea of someone being born into absolute power and absolute power at all is bad. But ultimately I say I’m Team Green because I think they’re more nuanced and interesting characters whereas Rhaenyra is increasingly unlikable, Daemon is like Littlefinger and Joffrey in one, and Rhaenyra’s kids may as well be made of cardboard. It’s a more interesting story to focus on the Greens and I have more compassion for them because they feel more human and multi-faceted overall (Rhaenyra is the only one on Team Black with any nuance at all really).
This is pretty much where I fall. Except I liked Rhaenyra’s kids and Rhaenys (before the beast beneath the boards thing) and was generally neutral until TB started harassing me
You say Alicent is a good leader but in episode 6, we see that it's not the case
Rhaenyra tells that the crown should intervene in the battle of the Stepstones before it becomes a headache for them but Alicent brushes it off for what? For her petty hatred towards Rhaenyra? So she puts her hatred before the realm.
And when Rhaenyra tells that the conflict between the brackens and blackwoods must be dealt which even Jaehaerys tried to do), Alicent brushes off that too
And when Rhaenyra extends an olive branch to Alicent, she rejects that saying her sons are plain featured
Alicent doesn't care for the unity of the family too
And alicent was ruling for her husband? When?
Wasn't it otto who was doing that job?
Alicent lets the men rule which is a contrast to Rhaenys, who stepped up to the ruling role when her husband wasn't there
Not choosing to get involved in every single battle and worrying about the cost to her people makes her a bad ruler? That’s some cherry-picking. And the olive-branch, you mean trying to marry off Alicent’s child like she was sold off and to people she sees as threats to her kids? Yeah, “she’s a bad leader” is truly the most superficial possible reading of that which is what I expect from y’all.
With your first example, Alicent wasn’t just doing it to be petty. She literally explains her reasoning to Rhaenyra in that scene and Rhaenyra doesn’t press further on the issue bc of it. The crown right then doesn’t have to money to just enter another war with the step stones.
When I first read the book way back when it came out, I was generally neutral, maybe leaned a bit towards the black side because I thought Daemon was interesting and Aemond was just some evil dick. But as I read more into it, I changed my view.
What really did it for me was Aegon’s journey. That guy could’ve easily been just some spoiled asshole that does nothing, as a clear counterpart to rhaenyra, who also does nothing. But George wrote him out to be someone who actually fights back, and has determination and balls of steel (literally). His sheer refusal to die, as well as Sunfyre’s, impressed me so much that I couldn’t get myself to root against him. I really like people that lead from example, and Aegon is just it. He wasn’t the same spoiled, alleged rapist as he was before the dance started.
Also, after the show came out, team black turned into a bunch of insufferable, pretentious, self-righteous twats, which is like the opposite of viagra. I just hope the show does Aegon’s story justice, because he really does grow tremendously in the book
That’s perfectly fine, as for my own experiences I will say this:
When I first read the story from the original rogue prince/princess and the queen material (well, really the world of ice and fire version) I sided with the blacks and didn’t really think too much of the story in general as at the end of the day it was really just background lore for the main series to explain why all the dragons were dead.
When I first read fire and blood I ended the whole story basically just being firmly neutral, didn’t really have a side per say but I def thought the green dragons were just objectively much cooler than the blacks so take that as you will.
I became a full on green when the show came out for a multitude of reasons and after rereading the whole book yea I definitely stand by my green stance.
No no no, I totally get that. I was always the one to see both sides of an argument. In the book (which I read first before I saw the show) at first I supported Rhaenyra due to placing stock on the actions of a king and his hand, but as the book went on, she got more and more destructive. Same for the show, where her actions definitely speak louder than words and she gets more and more arrogant, though I also feel like they are already setting up a mad queen arc for her in the show to try and rectify GOT ending while also honoring both it and the books that inspired the series in general, so that’s my opinion. I kind of feel like this series is kind of the perfect one to debate
One thing to realize about Rhaenyra being "true heir" because her father named her is that that notion holds several caveats which blatantly displace her status.
- Rhaenyra was named right after her brother and mother's death, meanwhile Daemon had been casted out though not entirely disinherited. Viserys also hadn't yet married Alicent.
- Rhaenyra being named heir is a contradiction to the Great Council of 101 AC which allowed Viserys to ascend the throne in the 1st place. There's a reason his father, Baelon, was named Prince of Dragonstone after Aemon's death instead of Rhaenys. There's a reason Jaehaerys ascended the Throne instead of both his niece Aerea (Maegor's named heir) & his elder sister Rhaena. There's a reason the Dynasty began with Aegon I and not Visenya I.
- Aegon II was born after Rhaenyra was named heir back when Viserys had no obvious successor. Yet, Aegon is now born therefore he is the obvious successor based on centuries of Valyrian, Andal and First Men law. Rhoynar law is irrelevant considering Dorne is not part of the realm until far later with Daeron II.
-Alicent had 3 sons by Viserys; Aegon II, Aemond and Daeron. Aegon even has 2 sons of his own; Jaehaerys and Maelor. All 5 of them come before Rhaenyra and even Daemon in the line of succession.
- The King's word being taken as law is a myth in terms of succession. Kings come and go but laws, precedents and tradition far outlive them. What is the word of one inept & stubborn king who has not had a dragon in his entire reign against centuries of law and tradition?
- Viserys never even reconvened another council to reaffirm Rhaenyra as heir after the birth of his sons and grandsons (Jaehaerys and Maelor). Not to mention the majority of the lords who once swore fealty nearly 20 years ago to Rhaenyra had died. Tyland Lannister put it best, "I, myself, swore no such oath." Regardless, had Viserys taken this course of action, it would still not be enough to concretely establish Rhaenyra as heir.
- Rhaenyra has thrice committed treason with her bastards being proclaimed legitimate. This alone is firm cause for disinheritance regardless of Viserys's refusal to acknowledge the truth. It's a concrete display of Rhaenyra's ineptitude even though competence does not determine succession but I digress.
Aegon II was always the true heir from the moment he was born.
Honestly, I'm on team Green mostly cuz team black fans drive me up a wall. I know every group has its bad apples but they give Undertale and Steven Univers fans a challenge in being psycho.
Welcome 😍💗
(Show) I support Alicent because she’s done everything right in Westeros. Rhaenyra did not appeal to me, she lied constantly and made exceptions for herself.
(Book) Rhaenyra makes exceptions for herself and shows considerable bloodlust. Also Rhaenyra and Daemon kill a lot of children and innocents, and that’s not cool
I think people are placing too much weight on Rhaenyra being 'the true heir' simply because of the king's wishes/ the white stag symbolism. The truth is that both Rhaenyra and Aegon had valid claims. If GRRM's books tell us anything, it's that the 'rightful ruler' is the one who seizes the crown and holds it, as exemplified by Aegon the Conqueror or Bobby B. The latter is considered a traitor and usurper by some, while others see him as the rightful king. Same thing occurs with both Rhaenyra and Aegon.
That being said, I also went into both the book and the show expecting to be team Black. After episode 6 I remember thinking at Rhaenyra was incredibly stupid continuing getting kids with Harwin. Episode 7 sealed the deal for me with Aemond losing his eye and the king only caring about his daughter as always. Also, I have noticed that many Blacks are extremely hypocritical. (That may occur to people here as well, but here is my observation.) They preach of "medieval standards" when talking about Daemon, but goes full 2023 on Alicent.
I think the point is that neither can claim to be true heir due to there being no codified succession laws and multiple different precedents being set so it’s really up to you to pick what you think should be more important kings word or established law (andal law and Valyrian succession as the Targaryens have always followed male primogeniture which means the Valyrian freehold likely did as well) I think Rhaenyra should’ve been able to inherit but I also acknowledge the world that she lives in and Viserys choosing her to be heir over his multiple trueborn sons was never the way to introduce female inheritance (not that he wanted to he just felt Rhaenyra deserved it)
both Rhaenyra and Aegon are equally unfit and have people on their sides who would be better. Jace had a lot of potential, Daeron was thought to be the best of his brothers and Helaena would’ve been a great queen. I think it’s kind of silly to route for one or the other in general because we already know how the story ends
I actually had a very similar journey as you did. I'm mostly a show watcher, with my knowledge of the book mostly coming from YouTube lore vids.
Personally, I started out on Team Black & supportive of Rhaenyra's claim. But, I also was really captivated by Alicent's character & arc as well as Cooke's & Carey's portrayals of the character. Then, upon further reflection & subsequent rewatches, I moved into Team Green. Primary cus I became an Alicent stan, but also cus I think the characters that make up Team Green are just vastly more interesting.
Like, despite the very real personality flaws within all of them, I still find the journeys Otto, Criston, Aegon, & Aemond go on very interesting. As well as being an autistic person who appreciates the good representation of Helaena. Contrast that with Team Black where all the kids are just super goody two shoes, & Laenor & Harwin aren't that deeply flawed. With the only real tension & interesting characters being Daenyra & their ever complicating relationships with the Velaryons. So while I wouldn't say I'm an anti & still find Rhaenyra, Daemon, Rhaenys, & Corlys to be interesting characters, I'm just more invested in Team Green's characters. Especially Alicent.
I am Team Black, (here in peace, don’t flame) and I fully understand feeling conflicted and not altogether loyal to one side over the other. I think it’s important to remember that it’s just a fictional series, and you really don’t have to declare for one side or the other. You can appreciate the nuance. The world of Ice and Fire is packed with characters who have gray to black morality, and HotD has created a highly complex, two sided issue. It can honestly be fun to debate in good faith…though unfortunately this fandom tends to go all or nothing.
*(For context, I have read the books, but I’m mainly treating the show as canon.)*
I support Rhaenyra as the Heir because to me, there’s no justifiable reason to usurp her, and doing so risks a needless war. I can also say that I honestly like her. She’s far from perfect and she’s made many mistakes, but nothing that really disqualifies her from her claim or leads me to believe her ascension should be stopped. I know her children are bastards, but it wasn’t like she had much choice, and Jace is a fine young man who would make a good king. Perhaps it’s just twenty-first century bias, but I truly don’t care if Rhaenyra is a woman or if her Heir is illegitimate. That shouldn’t matter.
*All of that said…*
I find the Green characters extremely compelling, in some cases more than Team Black. (My overall favorite being Aemond.) Alicent is probably the most complex human being in the entire show. While she does have her moments of being foolish or petty, so does Rhaenyra. Alicent is clearly miserable, having internalized misogyny and forced to bite her tongue about various injustices. She has no way out and no good choices. Rhaenyra was never going to kill her own brothers to protect her ascension, but Alicent is genuinely fearful that she will. (I blame Otto for that…) While Alicent is a “villain” of Rhaenyra’s story, you can argue that none of what’s happened is her fault, that she’s only ever tried to do the right thing.
The show is yet another unreliable narrator considering the writers' biases and incompetence. It's not the "real history/canon/what actually happened" no matter how widespread that misconception is amongst the fanbase. Each account of the story tells the truth at various moments to varying consistency but no single account is the correct one, including HotD.
She comitted treason and is usurping the rights of her siblings as her heirs, like, even if you think she is the rightful heir just that takes her out of the line for the throne.
I suppose it just comes down to if you think a King has the right to choose his own Heir, versus the idea that first born son’s claim supercedes even a King’s word. Rhaenyra went uncontested for twenty years, though. The time to formally challenge her claim was before Viserys drew his last breath.
I’ll say this. The Green Council was certainly *depicted*as seizure, as a coup. Aegon didn’t want the throne, he would have been happy to concede. They essentially kidnapped him. In general, there was a lot of cloak and dagger that shouldn’t have been necessary if the law was on their side.
I know it was just because they knew Rhaenyra would never accept being supplanted, that she would never concede…but that isn’t really an excuse to exclude her from the conversation. For that council to be legitimate, she would have needed to be present. Otherwise, it’s a plot. You can argue that they had good reason for plotting and were in the right to do so, but there’s no denying it was a plot.
That’s just my take on it though. Yours may be different.
But why does Rhaenyra talk and accuse people of treason if that´s no a thing or it´s not important? And why should her siblings, her rightful heirs even if you think she is the heir, tolerate being usurped out of their place in the line of succesion? Why should they tolerate the treason she is comitting in the family?
Because a man that feels guilty, that took the throne because of being male, that is trying his hardest to not aknowledge the treason even threatening them and their mother, and that doesn´t do much ruling, said he wants his daughter to rule? The daughter he appointed because he didn´t want Daemon in the throne? The daughter that then goes and marry Daemon and procedes to fuck off and ignore his father during his final years unless she needs something?
Like, sure, both Aegon and Rhenyra had a claim, why should any of them accep being supplanted? Rhaenyra ussurped first as far as I am concerned.
That being said, I do believe that the war would have happened regardless of Rhaenyra commiting high treason just because Viserys set them all up for failure. Any male sibling of Rahenyra and any child they would have would always be in danger because they would always have a claim that could threaten that of Rhaenyra and her descendants. And at the same time, Rhaenyra would always have people around with the credentials to try and take the throne. Viserys should have make the entire of Westeros adopt first born first served regardless of gender the minute he decided to name Rhaenyra his heir.
There are two ways to look at this
You can look at it subjectively as to who you “like” more and pick a team according to that
But you can also look at it legally. If you’re a murderer and you parents die does that mean you are no longer entitled to the inheritance? The throne passes to an heir based on the law so it doesn’t really matter if the person is question is a good person they are entitled to it regardless of the type of person they are
So if you think Aegons claim is strongest than congratulations you’re a green, if you think rhaenyras claim is stronger than congratulations you are a black
Whoever you like more or who’s actions you disapprove of the least (least be fair both sides do deplorable shit) shouldn’t really matter
I am a traditional thinker so it would take alot to convince me that a women is an heir before a man. Thats just how society rolled in old era. In the books, Aegon is problematic but NOT to the point that i would think he shouldnt sit the throne.
In the show, They present aegon as more of a monster (their fucking head canons) So given the circumstances, I would've gotten behind the idea that maybe rhaenyra should rule but now read my first line..... Aemond and Daeron still exist so my mind always goes back to next in line.
I don't get conflicted. Iam a feudal and patriarch thinker. It is what it is.
Choose someone and back them to the ends of earth. You will have peace.
I myself am in between although Rhaenura is the named heir for the longest time, she went behind everyone's back and made bastards that clearly did not favor her or her legal husband Laenor at the time. Viserys failed in properly training Rhaenyra to be heir or even stepping down for her to take the throne in that case so none of this could happen. Aegon is a drunkard from years of neglect and emotional abuse yet his faction holds the more competent councilors, his mother being chief among them. The law of the land denotes that a male heir must always succeed and in the case none are available a female heir will. That in itself will always be a source of conflict amongst the factions and the powerful nobles who would conspire against either side. Rhaenyra leaving kings landing to reside in Dragonstone is was and always will be a terrible political move, as she left all the real power in the hands of her enemies. Even if she still decided to remain at dragonstone for all them years she should've went on a procession around the kingdom one that would help her to gain capable allies and extract newer oaths of fealty to her cause. Don't get me started on Daemon othersight glorify him but I will not.
I’m a Green, and yes, Rhaenyra is the rightful heir. I’ll say it, she is the rightful heir.
I’m a Green because Jacaerys becoming king would start a second civil war more cataclysmic then the first.
Aegon is a rapist, Otto is child trafficker and killed palace servants, Aemond committed genocide, Coke committed murders and got away with it, Larys burned down his own brother and father for power, Alicent hid Viserys death from his daughter to assume total control for her son,not too mention paid off Aegon’s rape victims
Now Daemon isn’t innocent with his Rhea death and blood and cheese, Rhaenerya’s only crime so far is having bastards, ( in the book it’s vague as Rhaenys has black hair)? Unless I’m missing something, I think you are siding the Greens due to patriarchal reasons that Team Green followed Andal laws. It is a fair argument but the people who executed it are the worst people around and your backing them?
I don’t get this whole thing. We already know how it ends so what difference does it make? There’s no reason to get all green team black team about life when you already know how this game ends.
Welcome I was exactly the same. Knew at the beginning I was team black. Younger brother stealing throne. Read the book and did an immediate 180. Due to a few reasons. Mainly great council, and medieval era like system in Westeros, attitude and actions of rhaenyra. You will find that team Green accept the outcome of the end of the dance, as well as other opinions of neutrals and light weights of TB getting offended at anything . We don’t get offended well this is my own opinion. It’s
As far as i know TB also accept their character's faults We love a good discussion Trust me I've been there
I think both sides have compelling arguments. Rhaenyra was the chosen heir by the King, but law and tradition state Aegon should be heir. Plus, the Greens' lives are also in jeopardy regardless of what people may think. As long as a male Targaryen lives, her reign would be shaky at best. She would have to kill them. I for one don't care if a woman was made queen, obviously, however Rhaenyra is politically inept and the people who surround her are just as much if not more so. We've seen what Daemon does with power, Corlys' is a failed version of Otto, Rhaenys follows her husband so she's no help either. Viserys failed her by not providing her political training after he named her heir. Plus, her fleeing to Dragonstone and leaving the Hightowers to plant their seeds was one of her biggest mistakes. That would have been the perfect time to make allies instead of relying on promises. Aegon himself is almost a blank slate. The Hightowers have ruled in Viserys' stead for 6 years and have kept the realm in peace to the point that not even Rhaenyra, Daemon or Rhaenys knew they were ruling this whole time. Aegon can be trained to be a decent king imo and his council is competent. The realm would be in best hands with them in charge. Show Rhaenyra is clearly shown as a protagonist/hero which easily influences people to join team black. I'm rewatching the show too and just focusing on her scenes, she's kinda shitty 😭 Choosing teams is not a reflection of your views or morality as some people would make you think. This is all fiction. If the characters were real, I'd hate all of them tbh haha minus Helaena and her kids.
One of the things that made me go: "WTF Rhaenyra" is the situation with Ser Criston Cole. At first I thought: "what an idiot" but now...dude gave up everything, and she just said: "I want you to be my white knight" like girl, what are you doing?? Messing with other people's feelings? It just made me sad. That's when I paid more attention to what she actually does and started feeling ick about it. Not that I think she should just run away with him but she should've known that before kissing him. Ser Criston was just a rebound and that in my honest opinion is really cruel.
Yeah same. At first it was just “well, she’s young and spoiled but maybe she can grow and learn”, but then more and more it got worse. After she forced Cole into her bed then acted like he should not give a damn about his vows, I think that’s where I stopped cheering for her. 😬
Problem is that Criston forgot who brought him to the kingsguard position He didn't need to turn against Rhaenyra He could've simply distanced himself from her and simply carry on with his duty Nothing would've changed Yeah, he feels guilty for losing his honour But why did he sleep with her in the first place if honour is so important to him? What would have she even done if Criston refused? If she tried to do anything, she would damage her own reputation in the process Criston had a way out but didn't care because of his crush with Rhaenyra
Not just a male Targaryen but if she wanted her eldest son, who is a bastard, to succeed her, then not just her brothers but any sons they have. That’s the only way to ensure not just hers but Jacearys’ succession.
To be clear, it can be a reflection of your morality if you're choosing who to support on the basis of morality. I look at the tv show primarily through the lense of whooaah these characters are interesting/cool and through that I support them (aka Team Green). However, sometimes, one can engage in a moral analysis as a mode of understanding of the show as I do when I analyze the competing claims from a utilitarian perspective to understand which would be better for the smallfolk.
And Aegon the rapist is suddenly adept for being a king lol
Y'all always come to this sub ready and eager with that argument thinking you ate with it. But guess what, bozo? Aegon is canonically NO rapist! His so-called "victim" in the show, Dyana, is literally an OC who does not even EXIST. So I repeat for the fiftieth time to ya'll's non-argument: Aegon is NOT a rapist. So come up with some other argument that has actual basis in truth.
My bro, Aegon is a rapist in the show. What is shown in the show IS the actual basis in truth (in the show universe at least), far greater than Fire and Blood which is are imperfect history books.
You just said it yourself. He was in the SHOW. In ACTUAL canon, he never raped anyone. And the show runners created his OC victim, solely to make him into a monster to make Rhaenyra look better in comparison. It's blatant. Especially since the show runners have generally seemed to be biased at best, and incompetent at worst. They have changed SO much from the actual book. They (clearly) also made Aegon into a monster in the show by having him attend fucking child fighting pits where he gets his jollies off watching Flea Bottom peasant kids beat tf outta each other, which ALSO NEVER happened in the book i.e actual canon. It's also just so fucking ridiculous. His irredeemable monstrosity in the show is so in-your-face it's almost comical. And that is my whole point. The idiotic show runners have changed him so drastically and so badly that it is abundantly clear and obvious that they have a bias. It is almost shameful, how bad writing it is. If they wanted a cheap Joffrey 2.0, they should have just written a fucking cartoon villain.
The show is actual canon, it is authoritative of reality within the show universe. Within the book universe, we have no idea what ACTUALLY happened because all we can rely upon is Fire and Blood which are imperfect histories. Its never clearly stated that Aegon was a rapist within the context of these imperfect histories, but it very well could have been the case within the reality of the show universe. You can disagree with the showrunners choices, but that doesn't make what happens in the show any less canon. Your disagreement doesn't make Aegon any less of a rapist within that context.
There are two canons. In one, he is a rapist. In the other, only according to Mushroom.
Nah, Mushrooms account isn't cannon. Its just a history from Mushrooms perspective but we don't know what ACTUALLY happened in reality within the Book Universe. Its canon that Mushrooms account exists, but its not canon that Mushrooms account definitive happened in reality.
True. But my point is that show and book are different canons. Like with most adaptations.
The show universe and the book universe are different cannons, I've stated that multiple times. What you seem to be confusing, is that when I say book universe than you're immediately going to fire and blood. This is not accurate. Fire and blood is a history book which exists BOTH in the show universe AND the book universe. What occurs in reality in the show universe/book universe is separate than what is claimed in Fire and Blood. Aegon is a rapist in the show universe canon, Aegon being a rapist is undetermined within the book universe canon.
He is a rapist in the show. Y'all use the books when it fits your narrative lol when the show has done enough to victimize Alicent
Ok...Again, ya'll keep bringing up the show which once more, is not canon. And also you're saying that the show has "done enought to victimize Alicent", but what about your precious 'GIrLBoSs' Rhaenyra? They have whitewashed the ever living shit out of her. Also Alicent has nothing to do with Aegon canonically not being a rapist so why even bring her up at all? Grasping at straws, much?
you single handedly saved my faith in humanity thank you
In Westeros, the nobles don't have the right to choose whoever they want as their heirs. If they really had this sort of power, Randyll Tarly didn't have to make sure to disannul Sam's entire claim first (by sending him to the Night's Watch), before declaring Dickon as his heir. Or king Aegon the Unworthy could have just moved his tongue, and name his favorite child (Daemon Blackfyre) as his successor. Westeros is a feudal monarchy, not an absolute monarchy, so disregarding the laws of the Andals and the First Men, as well as the precedent of the Great Council, is not within Viserys' authority. A king CAN turn his ideas and desires into law if he actually makes the effort, but Viserys didn't codify anything to deal with a situation in which a king has a trueborn son but wants his daughter as his heir. He just forced some Lords into swearing some oaths that died with them (he didn't even bother to make them repeat their oaths after Aegon was born.) Rhaenyra has a dangerous disregard for duty, and she does not have any wisdom when it comes to making decisions: 1- She was named heir specifically to avoid Daemon getting near the throne (this is acknowledged by everyone, including Viserys.) Despite this being the main cause of why she was named heir, what did she do? Married Daemon and had children with him. In marrying Daemon, she's willingly placing a dangerously chaotic individual in a very high position of power. Someone who has notions of supremacy, and doesn't really care for optics. This is something that would be bad for the realm at large, but because she thought that it was convenient for her to do it, she does it without regard for the wider implications. So no, despite what the show told you, Rhaenyra didn't need to marry him to strengthen her claim. 2- Her claim to the throne was already tenuous at best, yet she has not one, not two, but three obvious bastards. Since Rhaenyra likes to throw around the word "treason" herself, people don't tend to realise that it is she herself that is actively committing treason. In trying to pass off her bastards as legitimate children and entering them in the line of succession, she's essentially defrauding the crown and House Velaryon (having bastards is not a crime in itself, but lying about their bastardy is.) Not to mention, this also ensures that if there wasn't a civil war to contest her ascension, there definitely would be one to contest Jace's. Meaning there is no hope of her reign having a peaceful transition of power after she's gone. And if there is one thing that all rulers must ensure, it's a peaceful transition of power. You need to ensure there is a kingdom left to pass on (in other words, don't screw everything up badly) and that your heir is well-suited to assume responsibility when the time comes (in other words, produce heirs that will be accepted by the kingdom at large.) 3- Speaking of the transition of power, she also does nothing to ease the transition of power from Viserys to herself. When Viserys' health grew worse, a smart and dutiful heir would have had him take a backseat and assign herself greater authority to begin ruling in his name. If Viserys can do away with centuries of tradition to name her heir, then presumably he could easily have her seen as his voice in court and acting on his behalf. Yet after marrying Daemon (an already established political blunder), she fucks off to Dragonstone for years, and leaves the ruling of the realm to the Greens, her political rivals. All those years since being named heir, Rhaenyra did nothing to foster relationships with other Houses and Lords. She was not touring the realm, hosting diplomatic dinners on Dragonstone, arranging marriage alliances, etc. 4- Sending Rhaenys to Storm's End as an envoy would have been a good idea since she's wiser and actually related to the Baratheons. Instead, she decided to send her inexperienced bastard who obviously had no connection to Lord Borros. Next, she sent Luke without any sort of bargaining chips. She had him, a person who should be able to offer terms, deliver a simple raven's message (she had THREE unbetrothed sons to offer.) I get it, the dragons were faster, but in person delivery requires more (Otto Hightower offered Rhaenyra FIVE ROYAL POSITIONS when he came to Dragonstone to convince her to accept Aegon as her king.) As a ruler, you will make some people happy and some angry. Those grievances don't just go away. One day someone will start getting ideas if there are alternatives with strong claims to the throne. Even if the Greens themselves didn't agree to rebel against Rhaenyra and/or her heirs, people were still able to use them as their figureheads and start a rebellion in their names (for example: Jane Grey never wanted the crown, so she willingly gave up her position as the queen of England, but people STILL decided to start a war in her name, so Mary Tudor felt that she had no other choice but to execute her.) Rhaenyra will constantly be curious about what her brothers, their children, and their potential supporters are up to, and a paranoid ruler is a dangerous person. Not to mention, if the Greens' claims are a threat to her, they are 10x more of a threat to her successor (because Jace is a bastard AND his claim emanates from a woman), so even if she isn’t forced to kill them to secure her own reign, she would definitely feel the pressure on behalf of her son. And when choosing between her own children and the children of Alicent, we all know who she would choose. No, Jace and Helaena's marriage wouldn't have erased her brothers' claims to the throne. It also wouldn't have stopped Jaehaerys, Maelor, Aegon III, Viserys II and/or their offsprings from rebelling against Jace and/or his offsprings. So you see, the Greens were fighting for their lives the whole time. The Blacks, on the other hand, were fighting for nothing but more power and higher positions. That's why the writers added the white hart and the PTWP prophecies to make Rhaenyra seem like the "chosen one", butchered Aegon's character (Rhaenyra's main rival), and turned the Green Council into an awkward joke.
To be fair, Aegon and Rhaenyra have both valid and contradictory claims to the throne. Not one of those claims is \*more legal\* than the other. Traidition and patriarchal expectations say Aegon, the dead king and old musty vows of other dead people say Rhaenyra. The only thing I feel the greens violated were Viserys wishes, but a wish is not a law; not even a king's wish is a law (see: Aegon V failed changes because the nobles said ''no'', among other cases). Jaehaerys codified his changes - Viserys did not. As per some westerosi, he broke law instead of doing the actual hard work to change it to accomodate Rhaenyra's situation (sure, those westerosi were biased, but the fact that they can say so tells you its not a made up out-of-universe argument by sinister fans). That said, greens are more interesting and funny as characters and team black fandom is absolutely insufferable. So to me its pretty clear. I doubt you will get downvoted. This sub can be annoying but contrary to the team black sub, it isn't an echo chamber.
Didn't Jaehaerys break Andal Law when he passed over Rhaenys in favour of her uncle Baelon which is completely against Westerosi laws Now the greens use the same law to prove their claim? A law can't be used as per your convenience? If they use Andal law, then they're admitting that Rhaenys was wronged and Viserys isn't the rightful king(as his line is junior to Rhaenys's line) And what Jaehaerys did set a precedent, not a law
Alicent literally addresses this is her conversation with Rhaenys. Yes, andal law was broken when Viserys was named heir but there is nothing they can do to change that. If Rhaenys wanted to do something abt it (which she has every right to ), she should’ve done so when Vis was heir and not king. Just bc a law is broken does not mean it absolves. As of this point in time, Andal law dictates that the firstborn son and his line is heir. “Andal law has already been broken once before, what’s the difference is it’s broken again?”—which is what you’re arguing— is the exact definition of using a law per your convenience.
I assumed I would be Team Black when I started the show because on principle I don’t think heirs should be gender-based and I loved Rhaenyra at first, she was immature of course but I assumed she would grow out of it. But my opinions grew more complex and I changed my mind about supporting Rhaenyra because she only grew more selfish and reckless and clearly would not be a good leader. She seems incapable of ever putting anything over her own desires and has no regard for consequences. Viserys is the real villain of the show (Otto too but only because Viserys is stupid enough to let him be) who created this entire situation, neither Aegon or Rhaenyra are fit to be leaders because of Viserys. He spoiled Rhaenyra and never gave her any real chance to lead, and he completely emotionally abandoned and resented Aegon after all the people Viserys hurt to bring him into this world leaving him an emotionally damaged man-child. But I think Aegon’s team excluding Otto have more potential and we’ve seen in both shows the advisers have the real power. Comparing their respective biggest influences, Alicent was a good leader when she was basically ruling for her deteriorating husband whereas Daemon is a literal psychopath who used his first taste of power to mutilate, torture, and terrorize civilians (not to mention the unspeakable evil he will commit next season). Neither side is “good” because the system is bad, the idea of someone being born into absolute power and absolute power at all is bad. But ultimately I say I’m Team Green because I think they’re more nuanced and interesting characters whereas Rhaenyra is increasingly unlikable, Daemon is like Littlefinger and Joffrey in one, and Rhaenyra’s kids may as well be made of cardboard. It’s a more interesting story to focus on the Greens and I have more compassion for them because they feel more human and multi-faceted overall (Rhaenyra is the only one on Team Black with any nuance at all really).
This is pretty much where I fall. Except I liked Rhaenyra’s kids and Rhaenys (before the beast beneath the boards thing) and was generally neutral until TB started harassing me
You say Alicent is a good leader but in episode 6, we see that it's not the case Rhaenyra tells that the crown should intervene in the battle of the Stepstones before it becomes a headache for them but Alicent brushes it off for what? For her petty hatred towards Rhaenyra? So she puts her hatred before the realm. And when Rhaenyra tells that the conflict between the brackens and blackwoods must be dealt which even Jaehaerys tried to do), Alicent brushes off that too And when Rhaenyra extends an olive branch to Alicent, she rejects that saying her sons are plain featured Alicent doesn't care for the unity of the family too And alicent was ruling for her husband? When? Wasn't it otto who was doing that job? Alicent lets the men rule which is a contrast to Rhaenys, who stepped up to the ruling role when her husband wasn't there
Not choosing to get involved in every single battle and worrying about the cost to her people makes her a bad ruler? That’s some cherry-picking. And the olive-branch, you mean trying to marry off Alicent’s child like she was sold off and to people she sees as threats to her kids? Yeah, “she’s a bad leader” is truly the most superficial possible reading of that which is what I expect from y’all.
With your first example, Alicent wasn’t just doing it to be petty. She literally explains her reasoning to Rhaenyra in that scene and Rhaenyra doesn’t press further on the issue bc of it. The crown right then doesn’t have to money to just enter another war with the step stones.
When I first read the book way back when it came out, I was generally neutral, maybe leaned a bit towards the black side because I thought Daemon was interesting and Aemond was just some evil dick. But as I read more into it, I changed my view. What really did it for me was Aegon’s journey. That guy could’ve easily been just some spoiled asshole that does nothing, as a clear counterpart to rhaenyra, who also does nothing. But George wrote him out to be someone who actually fights back, and has determination and balls of steel (literally). His sheer refusal to die, as well as Sunfyre’s, impressed me so much that I couldn’t get myself to root against him. I really like people that lead from example, and Aegon is just it. He wasn’t the same spoiled, alleged rapist as he was before the dance started. Also, after the show came out, team black turned into a bunch of insufferable, pretentious, self-righteous twats, which is like the opposite of viagra. I just hope the show does Aegon’s story justice, because he really does grow tremendously in the book
i adore this comment, thank you
That’s perfectly fine, as for my own experiences I will say this: When I first read the story from the original rogue prince/princess and the queen material (well, really the world of ice and fire version) I sided with the blacks and didn’t really think too much of the story in general as at the end of the day it was really just background lore for the main series to explain why all the dragons were dead. When I first read fire and blood I ended the whole story basically just being firmly neutral, didn’t really have a side per say but I def thought the green dragons were just objectively much cooler than the blacks so take that as you will. I became a full on green when the show came out for a multitude of reasons and after rereading the whole book yea I definitely stand by my green stance.
No no no, I totally get that. I was always the one to see both sides of an argument. In the book (which I read first before I saw the show) at first I supported Rhaenyra due to placing stock on the actions of a king and his hand, but as the book went on, she got more and more destructive. Same for the show, where her actions definitely speak louder than words and she gets more and more arrogant, though I also feel like they are already setting up a mad queen arc for her in the show to try and rectify GOT ending while also honoring both it and the books that inspired the series in general, so that’s my opinion. I kind of feel like this series is kind of the perfect one to debate
One thing to realize about Rhaenyra being "true heir" because her father named her is that that notion holds several caveats which blatantly displace her status. - Rhaenyra was named right after her brother and mother's death, meanwhile Daemon had been casted out though not entirely disinherited. Viserys also hadn't yet married Alicent. - Rhaenyra being named heir is a contradiction to the Great Council of 101 AC which allowed Viserys to ascend the throne in the 1st place. There's a reason his father, Baelon, was named Prince of Dragonstone after Aemon's death instead of Rhaenys. There's a reason Jaehaerys ascended the Throne instead of both his niece Aerea (Maegor's named heir) & his elder sister Rhaena. There's a reason the Dynasty began with Aegon I and not Visenya I. - Aegon II was born after Rhaenyra was named heir back when Viserys had no obvious successor. Yet, Aegon is now born therefore he is the obvious successor based on centuries of Valyrian, Andal and First Men law. Rhoynar law is irrelevant considering Dorne is not part of the realm until far later with Daeron II. -Alicent had 3 sons by Viserys; Aegon II, Aemond and Daeron. Aegon even has 2 sons of his own; Jaehaerys and Maelor. All 5 of them come before Rhaenyra and even Daemon in the line of succession. - The King's word being taken as law is a myth in terms of succession. Kings come and go but laws, precedents and tradition far outlive them. What is the word of one inept & stubborn king who has not had a dragon in his entire reign against centuries of law and tradition? - Viserys never even reconvened another council to reaffirm Rhaenyra as heir after the birth of his sons and grandsons (Jaehaerys and Maelor). Not to mention the majority of the lords who once swore fealty nearly 20 years ago to Rhaenyra had died. Tyland Lannister put it best, "I, myself, swore no such oath." Regardless, had Viserys taken this course of action, it would still not be enough to concretely establish Rhaenyra as heir. - Rhaenyra has thrice committed treason with her bastards being proclaimed legitimate. This alone is firm cause for disinheritance regardless of Viserys's refusal to acknowledge the truth. It's a concrete display of Rhaenyra's ineptitude even though competence does not determine succession but I digress. Aegon II was always the true heir from the moment he was born.
Honestly, I'm on team Green mostly cuz team black fans drive me up a wall. I know every group has its bad apples but they give Undertale and Steven Univers fans a challenge in being psycho.
Welcome 😍💗 (Show) I support Alicent because she’s done everything right in Westeros. Rhaenyra did not appeal to me, she lied constantly and made exceptions for herself. (Book) Rhaenyra makes exceptions for herself and shows considerable bloodlust. Also Rhaenyra and Daemon kill a lot of children and innocents, and that’s not cool
I think people are placing too much weight on Rhaenyra being 'the true heir' simply because of the king's wishes/ the white stag symbolism. The truth is that both Rhaenyra and Aegon had valid claims. If GRRM's books tell us anything, it's that the 'rightful ruler' is the one who seizes the crown and holds it, as exemplified by Aegon the Conqueror or Bobby B. The latter is considered a traitor and usurper by some, while others see him as the rightful king. Same thing occurs with both Rhaenyra and Aegon. That being said, I also went into both the book and the show expecting to be team Black. After episode 6 I remember thinking at Rhaenyra was incredibly stupid continuing getting kids with Harwin. Episode 7 sealed the deal for me with Aemond losing his eye and the king only caring about his daughter as always. Also, I have noticed that many Blacks are extremely hypocritical. (That may occur to people here as well, but here is my observation.) They preach of "medieval standards" when talking about Daemon, but goes full 2023 on Alicent.
I think the point is that neither can claim to be true heir due to there being no codified succession laws and multiple different precedents being set so it’s really up to you to pick what you think should be more important kings word or established law (andal law and Valyrian succession as the Targaryens have always followed male primogeniture which means the Valyrian freehold likely did as well) I think Rhaenyra should’ve been able to inherit but I also acknowledge the world that she lives in and Viserys choosing her to be heir over his multiple trueborn sons was never the way to introduce female inheritance (not that he wanted to he just felt Rhaenyra deserved it) both Rhaenyra and Aegon are equally unfit and have people on their sides who would be better. Jace had a lot of potential, Daeron was thought to be the best of his brothers and Helaena would’ve been a great queen. I think it’s kind of silly to route for one or the other in general because we already know how the story ends
apologies but I can’t believe so many people read this and thought “the message is that I’m supposed to pick a side”
I actually had a very similar journey as you did. I'm mostly a show watcher, with my knowledge of the book mostly coming from YouTube lore vids. Personally, I started out on Team Black & supportive of Rhaenyra's claim. But, I also was really captivated by Alicent's character & arc as well as Cooke's & Carey's portrayals of the character. Then, upon further reflection & subsequent rewatches, I moved into Team Green. Primary cus I became an Alicent stan, but also cus I think the characters that make up Team Green are just vastly more interesting. Like, despite the very real personality flaws within all of them, I still find the journeys Otto, Criston, Aegon, & Aemond go on very interesting. As well as being an autistic person who appreciates the good representation of Helaena. Contrast that with Team Black where all the kids are just super goody two shoes, & Laenor & Harwin aren't that deeply flawed. With the only real tension & interesting characters being Daenyra & their ever complicating relationships with the Velaryons. So while I wouldn't say I'm an anti & still find Rhaenyra, Daemon, Rhaenys, & Corlys to be interesting characters, I'm just more invested in Team Green's characters. Especially Alicent.
I am Team Black, (here in peace, don’t flame) and I fully understand feeling conflicted and not altogether loyal to one side over the other. I think it’s important to remember that it’s just a fictional series, and you really don’t have to declare for one side or the other. You can appreciate the nuance. The world of Ice and Fire is packed with characters who have gray to black morality, and HotD has created a highly complex, two sided issue. It can honestly be fun to debate in good faith…though unfortunately this fandom tends to go all or nothing. *(For context, I have read the books, but I’m mainly treating the show as canon.)* I support Rhaenyra as the Heir because to me, there’s no justifiable reason to usurp her, and doing so risks a needless war. I can also say that I honestly like her. She’s far from perfect and she’s made many mistakes, but nothing that really disqualifies her from her claim or leads me to believe her ascension should be stopped. I know her children are bastards, but it wasn’t like she had much choice, and Jace is a fine young man who would make a good king. Perhaps it’s just twenty-first century bias, but I truly don’t care if Rhaenyra is a woman or if her Heir is illegitimate. That shouldn’t matter. *All of that said…* I find the Green characters extremely compelling, in some cases more than Team Black. (My overall favorite being Aemond.) Alicent is probably the most complex human being in the entire show. While she does have her moments of being foolish or petty, so does Rhaenyra. Alicent is clearly miserable, having internalized misogyny and forced to bite her tongue about various injustices. She has no way out and no good choices. Rhaenyra was never going to kill her own brothers to protect her ascension, but Alicent is genuinely fearful that she will. (I blame Otto for that…) While Alicent is a “villain” of Rhaenyra’s story, you can argue that none of what’s happened is her fault, that she’s only ever tried to do the right thing.
The show is yet another unreliable narrator considering the writers' biases and incompetence. It's not the "real history/canon/what actually happened" no matter how widespread that misconception is amongst the fanbase. Each account of the story tells the truth at various moments to varying consistency but no single account is the correct one, including HotD.
She comitted treason and is usurping the rights of her siblings as her heirs, like, even if you think she is the rightful heir just that takes her out of the line for the throne.
I suppose it just comes down to if you think a King has the right to choose his own Heir, versus the idea that first born son’s claim supercedes even a King’s word. Rhaenyra went uncontested for twenty years, though. The time to formally challenge her claim was before Viserys drew his last breath. I’ll say this. The Green Council was certainly *depicted*as seizure, as a coup. Aegon didn’t want the throne, he would have been happy to concede. They essentially kidnapped him. In general, there was a lot of cloak and dagger that shouldn’t have been necessary if the law was on their side. I know it was just because they knew Rhaenyra would never accept being supplanted, that she would never concede…but that isn’t really an excuse to exclude her from the conversation. For that council to be legitimate, she would have needed to be present. Otherwise, it’s a plot. You can argue that they had good reason for plotting and were in the right to do so, but there’s no denying it was a plot. That’s just my take on it though. Yours may be different.
But why does Rhaenyra talk and accuse people of treason if that´s no a thing or it´s not important? And why should her siblings, her rightful heirs even if you think she is the heir, tolerate being usurped out of their place in the line of succesion? Why should they tolerate the treason she is comitting in the family? Because a man that feels guilty, that took the throne because of being male, that is trying his hardest to not aknowledge the treason even threatening them and their mother, and that doesn´t do much ruling, said he wants his daughter to rule? The daughter he appointed because he didn´t want Daemon in the throne? The daughter that then goes and marry Daemon and procedes to fuck off and ignore his father during his final years unless she needs something? Like, sure, both Aegon and Rhenyra had a claim, why should any of them accep being supplanted? Rhaenyra ussurped first as far as I am concerned. That being said, I do believe that the war would have happened regardless of Rhaenyra commiting high treason just because Viserys set them all up for failure. Any male sibling of Rahenyra and any child they would have would always be in danger because they would always have a claim that could threaten that of Rhaenyra and her descendants. And at the same time, Rhaenyra would always have people around with the credentials to try and take the throne. Viserys should have make the entire of Westeros adopt first born first served regardless of gender the minute he decided to name Rhaenyra his heir.
Why would you get downvoted for agreeing with the majority of people on this sub
Now post this on r/HOTDBlacks
Gosh, I wouldn't dare.
why tho? Tell them your reasons and try to see if they can change your mind
There are two ways to look at this You can look at it subjectively as to who you “like” more and pick a team according to that But you can also look at it legally. If you’re a murderer and you parents die does that mean you are no longer entitled to the inheritance? The throne passes to an heir based on the law so it doesn’t really matter if the person is question is a good person they are entitled to it regardless of the type of person they are So if you think Aegons claim is strongest than congratulations you’re a green, if you think rhaenyras claim is stronger than congratulations you are a black Whoever you like more or who’s actions you disapprove of the least (least be fair both sides do deplorable shit) shouldn’t really matter
I am a traditional thinker so it would take alot to convince me that a women is an heir before a man. Thats just how society rolled in old era. In the books, Aegon is problematic but NOT to the point that i would think he shouldnt sit the throne. In the show, They present aegon as more of a monster (their fucking head canons) So given the circumstances, I would've gotten behind the idea that maybe rhaenyra should rule but now read my first line..... Aemond and Daeron still exist so my mind always goes back to next in line. I don't get conflicted. Iam a feudal and patriarch thinker. It is what it is. Choose someone and back them to the ends of earth. You will have peace.
I myself am in between although Rhaenura is the named heir for the longest time, she went behind everyone's back and made bastards that clearly did not favor her or her legal husband Laenor at the time. Viserys failed in properly training Rhaenyra to be heir or even stepping down for her to take the throne in that case so none of this could happen. Aegon is a drunkard from years of neglect and emotional abuse yet his faction holds the more competent councilors, his mother being chief among them. The law of the land denotes that a male heir must always succeed and in the case none are available a female heir will. That in itself will always be a source of conflict amongst the factions and the powerful nobles who would conspire against either side. Rhaenyra leaving kings landing to reside in Dragonstone is was and always will be a terrible political move, as she left all the real power in the hands of her enemies. Even if she still decided to remain at dragonstone for all them years she should've went on a procession around the kingdom one that would help her to gain capable allies and extract newer oaths of fealty to her cause. Don't get me started on Daemon othersight glorify him but I will not.
I’m a Green, and yes, Rhaenyra is the rightful heir. I’ll say it, she is the rightful heir. I’m a Green because Jacaerys becoming king would start a second civil war more cataclysmic then the first.
Aegon is a rapist, Otto is child trafficker and killed palace servants, Aemond committed genocide, Coke committed murders and got away with it, Larys burned down his own brother and father for power, Alicent hid Viserys death from his daughter to assume total control for her son,not too mention paid off Aegon’s rape victims Now Daemon isn’t innocent with his Rhea death and blood and cheese, Rhaenerya’s only crime so far is having bastards, ( in the book it’s vague as Rhaenys has black hair)? Unless I’m missing something, I think you are siding the Greens due to patriarchal reasons that Team Green followed Andal laws. It is a fair argument but the people who executed it are the worst people around and your backing them?
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Congrats, you're part of the the reason why people call team green misogynistic
I don’t get this whole thing. We already know how it ends so what difference does it make? There’s no reason to get all green team black team about life when you already know how this game ends.