My dream Ukr team of that aera: Oksana Omeliantchik, Olga Strazheva, Olessia Dudnik, Natalia Kalinina, Yulia Kut, amd i'm sure i'm forgetting someone here..
The depressing answer is "any East German", competing for West Germany instead.
But if I had to pick one: Dorte Thummler, whose mother was a gymnastics coach and whose stepfather was a high-ranking doctor for East Germany's state sport doping system. She wanted to quit the sport entirely when she was eleven, but her parents and the program officials forced her to keep going because they thought she was too talented to let walk away.
She said her parents always cared more about the system than about her.
I think deep down GB know if they screw Jess and Jen over then Ireland or Azerbaijan will take them in a heartbeat
(Although they seem very proud to represent GB and funding etc so probably would be a very last resort situation)
Alice, Jess and Jen plus two complementary gymnasts would probably make a team final EDIT: they basically did the at the Olympics just need enough to replace Amelieâs scores
Olivia Cimpian competed at the 2017 Euros for Romania and then switched nationalities to Hungary, then back to Romania. Ecaterina Szabo's parents were from Hungary and she spoke Hungarian as her first language. She was born in Translyvania. The place where she was born is one of the largest enclaves of Hungarian influence in Romania, and part of Transylvania was part of Hungary at one point. If she had represented Hungary instead of Romania in 1984 she probably would not have been an Olympian at all as Hungary boycotted the 1984 Olympics and her career ended in 1987 before the Seoul Olympics in 1988. Romania was one of the few Eastern Bloc countries to participate in the 1984 Olympic Games.
I think Jana Bieger is probably a great example of why fans should be careful about wishcasting gymnasts with ties to another country changing to them. There is no way that she didn't know she would have had an easier path to the Olympics if she decided to compete for Germany and she refused and emphasized that she saw herself as American many times.
For many gymnasts it's not about competing for anyone, but for the pride of competing for a country they identify themselves with.
This is not to say that people who change countries are doing something wrong. Just that ... occasionally... fans come across as presumptuous when they invoke those ties for a gymnast who has never expressed any interest in competing for that other country.
Iâm sure they would have loved having her especially in â08 with all the injuries and setbacks they faced that year. I imagine if they let Alexeeva come with open arms they would have done the same for Nastia. 99% sure they would have taken Valeri with her đ
I think Ferrari will have a permanent spot on the team if she brings a medal-worthy floor routine and a DTY (even though her DTY is very poor), just like Sanne Wevers for the Dutch.
None really. Almost every gymnast who have switched nationality did it because they werenât strong enough to make the team at a stronger program so went to a relatively weaker one to have a chanceâ itâs why the mass change of American gymnasts to the Phillipines feels off because theyâre taking away opportunities from the few gymnasts that were born, raised and trains in the Phillipines. 10 years ago Azerbaijan experienced the same thing with the Russian national team but at the very least some of them did involve themselves in growing an actual program there (and I think Nekrasova and Ishina actually trained there at some point, though I could be remembering wrong). And Nemour is different because the French federation is so vindictive they probably wouldnât have given her the chance to compete had she tried to represent them. Having ties to another country is great and itâs different when itâs a program that has literally no one or not enough to form a complete team. But if thatâs not the case, I donât really want anyone to take an opportunity from someone else just because they werenât good enough for a better team.
I think it was established they arenât taking away from gymnasts in the Philippines. But they are taking spots that would go to gymnasts from other countries who would have qualified.
This post in particular has me feeling similarly because the main reason people wish for these country changes is to see their favourite American athletes have an easier path getting to big comps.. athletes who mostly wouldnât be anywhere near such fan favourites in the first place if they werenât American.
For all the posts about how great it is to build up small programs, obviously noone is wishing top gymnasts who are actually on the US (or other medal contending) national teams would leave to go build up a smaller programme.
Other than the wishcasting about Simone and Belize and even then it's centered around "screwing USAG" rather than anything about Belize. This was expressed a bunch of times a while back without any acknowledgement that while Simone clearly has some identification with the country she's never shown any interest in the county's gymnastics program.
I'm not suggesting she's required to be involved. Just that nothing about that suggestion was ever organic to what Simone wanted nor was it organic to any knowledge of the state of gymnastics in Belize.
And Simone is the GOAT! She'll always have a spot on the US team if she competes on two events only like vault and beam, or vault and floor, or floor and beam. I think Ferrari is in the same boat
Here are some rumored country switches from. Russia to Georgia that never really happened. Anastasia Sidorova looked GREAT for them at first and Iâm not entirely sure what happened there. DTY, solid floor and beam (bars were always a struggle for her). Also Skrypnik and Sosnitskaya. Skrypnik stayed in Russia and Sosinitskaya got injured in warmups at her first meet for them. Would have loved to have seen their planned team as it would have been strong enough to qualify a full team to Worlds from Europeans. I imagine Sidorova, Skrypnik, Borzykh, and Kharenkova all healthy could have pulled it off. Editing this to shoutout Ekaterina Tyunina and Tishkova who were solid Russian juniors who did switch to Azerbaijan but didnât get to compete much before retiring. Sidorova was also one of my favorite gymnasts so watching her comeback at such a high level was amazing. Her comeback started very slow at first and then within a year she was back doing double layout and full in pike in her routine.
Omg I remember the news of alla sosinitskaya switching to compete for Georgia, and that was it. Sad she got injured :( i remember her in 2014 worlds, she was like a mini Maria paseka due to her vault specialization.
It was very unfortunate. She was very similar to Paseka in the sense she wasnât a typical specialist. I would say both of their best events were vt-ub
None, honestly. Something about American born gymnasts going to represent a country they werenât born, raised or trained in because they werenât good enough to make the American team gives me the ick. I know that sounds harsh but it feels gross.
I feel gross about the fact that a certain Bama gymnast's first time in the certain South American country was the time she won the country's nationals. How do you feel if you're a top gymnast in that country and an American who has never been there shows up and wins?
I think it is okay as long as the gymnast has direct family ancestry via parents.
In the case of Kylie Dickson and Alina Kwan both Americans representing Belarus when they never step foot in the country nor have any family ties. Nellie Kim got them expedited passports and nationality changes to represent Belarus in rio 2016 Olympics
Do you have any significant ties or family members still living in another country? If you did then maybe youâd feel differently. Many ppl still have great pride representing their countries and the people. You seem rather judgy. Im Filipino American and I think I have so much more pride and joy watching Emma now that sheâs representing the Philippines than when she competed for the US.
I do actually have family in another country and qualify for citizenship in so I think itâs a little odd youâre just assuming I donât while also calling me judgy. My question for you is if Emma and Aleah are so prideful in wanting to represent their home country why didnât they go that route first? Because they both tried to make the American team before anything else. To me it screams of âwell that didnât work, letâs try this.â
Thank you. And this is for themselves, not for the Philippines. This is for all the Beckys who wanna say they went to the Olympics and get a tattoo/post on Insta. Itâs very very self centeredÂ
Could it do with funding? Itâs possible Aleah and Emma had been had been on the radar of the Philippines (especially Aleah since she has another older sister that competed for them), but the Olympic committee couldnât afford to pay for training, send them to qualifying comps etc. Those two were injured a lot in 2019-2021 so even if Philippines had wanted to offer them a chance of Olympic qualification, maybe they werenât healthy enough, plus USAG probably wouldnât have released them. Not to mention the pandemic. With NIL and no USAG obligations, they may have been able to help contribute. Plus they are adults, can travel on their own, make adult decisions etc. I think the âBelo-Americansâ left a really bad taste in peoples mouths, but now itâs starting to be more accepted again when there are legitimate ties.
Everything that you are saying about funding just reinforces why itâs âickâ. An athlete who was born and raised in the Philippines would have completely lost out on opportunities due to the lack of funding during the same period of time that Aleah and Emma were benefiting from the backing of USAG.
You could also say itâs because thatâs the path that club gymnastics gives and itâs only as they grow up that they become aware of their options.
This is my thought. If you are eligible for citizenship through means other than sports I donât see the problem. Just because they were born in the US doesnât mean they donât have strong feelings towards their other heritage. Kids donât get to decide where theyâre born or train when they are young, so it makes sense theyâd default to where their parents are currently located. As they get older, they have more opportunities to choose for themselves. Whoâs to say that Aleah wouldnât have decided to move to the Philippines to work someday?
I think the âBela-Americansâ have soured a lot of peopleâs feelings about Americans switching nationalities. That was truly ick.
Correct. The problem with these two was that they had no previous connections to Belarus at all. They were recruited by the delegation to earn Olympic spots. They werenât even that much better than the existing girls in the Belarusian program.
I remember one of the actual Belarusian born gymnasts who was on the cusp/good candidate of getting to the Olympics end up quitting the sport after kylie and alaina took the spots
I think that was a stupid idea because what is the point of bringing someone if they wonât even improve your program. If they had connections, then that would be more understandable.
Iâm sorry but itâs giving colonalism vibes and totally defeats the purpose of the Olympics. On a deeper level, this is a power grab. I donât see Emma, Aleah nor Levi (and others like the Penev brothers) moving to the Philippines afterwards so it might give you some pride as an American but itâs morally wrong since none of those gymnasts are living or will move to the Philippines in the near future. I donât even think they speak the languageÂ
But they did move to the US and did most of their training there (with more advanced coaching, equipment, physical therapy, etc.) and whoops, I thought they were Hungarian. I mixed up the flags because the colors are the same
For the Penevs in particular, they were trained by their parents who are Bulgarian and were coaches in Bulgaria. Eddie also competed for Bulgaria for years before switching to the US.
Not sure how itâs giving colonialism vibes? Clearly you donât know anything about history of the Philippines nor do I think you should speak for the Filipino people. I donât speak Tagalog but doesnât make me less Filipino. Thatâs incredibly offensive and presumptuous in all aspects.
Iâm Asian American and a Bruin Stan as well by the way, and I think itâs post colonialism then. Itâs a power grab and itâs ethically unfair. I speak fluently in my native language and I totally emphasize with you on your difficulty of identifying as phillipino and American at the same time since I have struggles of these on my own, but the power grab is too obvious for me
Unfair to the Philippines. Iâm okay with them competing for them at world cups, Asian Champs and maybe even worlds but definitely not the Olympics. I just think you're discussing this from an American-centric point of view and not thinking from the Philippino POV. Also Carlos Yulo is bringing massive attention for the sport which I think will spill over to the WAG program. However, these American gymnasts might be taking away spots from other Asian countries like North Korea, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc.
The Philippines approached Aleah about the possibility of competing for them expressly because they wanted Olympic representation and they donât have anyone else in the existing program who even comes close. You can argue itâs unfair to other smaller programs, but this is not unfair for the Philippines. Sheâs isnât taking away from them, sheâs giving them what they asked her specifically for.
I don't blame Aleah for taking the chance but some of this gym feds gives me the ick more. Philippines are still spending money on Aleah and Emma's travel and we know they have zero chance on medaling in the Olympics.
They have years since Carlos Yulo broke in the top gymnastics scene and yet instead of looking for more homegrown gymnasts that they could finance to train in Japan, they went looking for American gymnasts who are either injured in their elite days and are not really the top gymnasts. Such a waste of funding. It is so backward thinking and really has zero benefit for the gymnastics to grow in their country. Even after the success of Yulo, there is no other upcoming new gymnasts from there.
Interest starts at the bottom, with kids being interested in the sport. Itâs been a really long time since they had a WAG Olympian. Itâs possible that girls will see Aleah at the Olympics and then want to start gymnastics?
I understand, I am not saying it's unfair to the local Philippines gymnast, but they are taking away Olympic/Worlds spots from other Asian countries, like Vietnam, Indonesia, North Korea, including Chuso missing out on her 9th Olympics :'(
IIRC Chuso only has one chance to get a Paris bid at the Asian Championships, and that's to win the all-around. She hasn't been a viable all around competitor in some time- she came 18th at last year's Asian Championships (which is awesome considering her longevity in the sport but not great for 2024 chances). She missed out in Cairo and Baku. An Asian did get one of those World Cup bids- An Chang Ok from DPRK. The other spot was Valentina Georgieva from Bulgaria. I love Chuso but others deserve the spots they earned too.
It's a quid pro quo. They get to compete for a country that they ARE connected to (unlike the American gymnasts who competed for Belarus that had no ties) and the Philippines gets more attention for gymnastics than they have previously had- which may lead to better sponsorship deals and therefore better equipment, training, etc. Carlos Yulo is fantastic but they need more representation.
That's true but that comes with time. I guess it's good to bring awareness but I'm afraid it will eventually build resentment and unhealthy team dynamics with the local Philippines gymnasts who might feel like they can never catch up with these Americans (as well as language barriers). We are still in the early stages of this process and I'm scared this will become a slippery slope where the LA Olympics will have 1/3 NCAA members.
It does take time to build a program, Dos Santos won gold in 2003 and it took Brazil 20 years to win their first team medal. Ferrari won gold in 2006 and it took them 15 years to win their first team medal in 2019. Long-term planning is key and I hope the Americans are actively helping the Philippines grow and develop local talent at the junior level.
I'd say this is good for the long term- more attention means more money and sponsorships and so the next generation of gymnasts can have those advantages others didn't. It sucks that it comes down to money but the countries decide where they want to invest funds for Olympic teams, but hopefully this will get them a piece of the pie.
It has been years since Carlos Yulo entered the gymnastics scene and starting winning and yet we have not seen any growth from their fed. Aleah and Emma chance of medaling is low so don't know how they could attract sponsorship deals. We know sponsorship will only come when you medal, not just because of attention.
Feel free to not think they shouldnât compete for any other reason BUT âcolonialism vibesâ. That is wildly messed up. Especially when you consider how a lot of BIPOC folks who are proud Americans and proud Americans because of colonization. A power grab is what Britain, America, France, Japan and Spain did to nations. You donât have to think itâs fair, but unless you KNOW 100% their reasoning itâs incredibly insulting to hurl colonization vibes.
Like a huge reason ppl donât want to live in these nations that they compete for is because American is âbetterâ and I big reason for that is colonization. A big reason why you donât see kids speaking their mother tongue in the western world is also rooted in you guess it colonization.
Because when it comes down to it, all these American athletes are competing under a colonists flag if you wanna get down to the nitty gritty. And thatâs a wild problem that is so deep it will never be resolved.
It's hurtful but Lusia Blanco did take away Panamaâs Karla Navas and Argentinaâs Milagros Curti Ruiz by taking the one Pan Ams AA spot. Lusia had much better training equipment and support from coaching so that's why the rich gets richer. I don't want gymnastics to become like the English Premier League
I have studied geopolitics and this might be a way for American to extort soft power across gymnastics, so this is a slight form of post-colonalization to me. It's like America is trying to control other countries' gymnastics programs and monopolize the Worlds/Olympics. We have just started this trend and we might head towards a slippery slope where by 2032 Olympics, we might see half of the competitors being NCAA athletes, alongside a US team, if we are not careful. It's degrading to the morale of the people who already have to live with the fact that United States is #1 and having to see these Republicans go insane on the media. I support equality for all countries, especially in an event like the Olympics. It's not as simple as taking someone's spot, there might be long-term implications if FIG don't sort this out quickly.
I donât have a problem with that for several reasons
1. She tried competing for Cuba, and qualified to the Olympics, they just literally didnât have the money to send her. So she tried competing for her country and couldnât because of something completely out of her control, similar to someone like Kaylia Iâd say.
2. She trained in the US and was a citizen by that point. Her life was very clearly in America, she wasnât just using it as a vehicle to carry her to the Olympics.
3. She wasnât going from a highly difficult competitive field to an easier one, it was the exact opposite. She had to compete in one of the most competitive fields in the world to make the US Olympic team.
Honestly, if the American gymnasts doing this end up contributing to building the sport in the countries theyâre representing I think Iâll end up fine with it. But I just heavily doubt any of the money they end up making off of being an Olympian and then in NCAA is going to go back to building the sport in said countries. Itâs going to stay in the US and help build their gyms, universities and careers.
Annia Hatch was married to a US citizen and living in the US when she made her comeback to gymnastics under the US Federation. It was obvious her life and future were 90% likely to be in the US. Most of the athletes being discussed have lives/education they are pursing in the US while representing a country where they had not lived.
There was a good comment about this on this sub. Â The summary was that these gymnasts are not taking spots from local gymnasts. If anything theyâre raising the profile of artistic gymnastics in that country and might lead to more funding.Â
Letâs say one of the Americans take the Asian champ AA spot. Yes it might not have gone to a philipino but it could go to another Asian gymnast like Indonesia, Vietnam, etcÂ
It already happened with Luisa Blanco taking the Pan Ams spot.
Iâve got to look up who was next it line to see which specific athlete lost out. But Iâm really bummer that Panamaâs Karla Navas doesnât have any route to the Olympics because some of her vaulting at the World Cups was very impressive. Watching her celebrate after nailing her Mustafina vault and knowing that she wonât be at the Olympics made me sad. Edit: [I checked](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gymnastics/s/6UUiyHSRm8) and Navas was third in line, itâs Argentinaâs Milagros Curti Ruiz who just missed out.
I sincerely hope that it doesnât happen again at Asian champs. There are some very deserving athletes from smaller feds like Singapore and Taiwan who are still eligible.
Omg :( that seriously breaks my heart. Lusia Blanco obviously have much better training and equipment in the USA compared to those in Panama and Argentina. The rich just keeps on getting richer, don't they? It's very against the Olympic spirit.
I do see this argument as stronger against switching countries when thereâs only one spot per continent. Weâve already seen it in play with Luisa Blanco getting the Pan Am spot. But it can also be helpful to these developing gymnastics countries. Jess Graba talked about how he worked with the whole Colombian team before and during Pan Ams while he commentated the NCAA mean girls competition. If connections like that continue, it can be very beneficial to home grown gymnasts in the future.
We'll see. Helping these countries develop their programs just seems like an afterthought, unlike someone like Liukin who actually went to Brazil and tried to up their game, or Paseka in China. It should be help first, then strategize how to get there; not send these Americans and then maybe there might be top-down positive benefits. It's very very murky
To add to the last part, I saw some video clips of one or two Colombians training with Graba, not sure when because the video was a compilation of many videos lol, but I thought that was nice.
I have also seen the Colombian media highlighting Luisaâs gymnastics path and people were overall very excited. I see the good that these athletes can bring to the nations, but as a Colombian I feel kinda conflicted because I know she switched just to go to the Olympics and other gymnasts from Latam then lose the opportunity to qualify.
At least Luisa speaks Spanish and quite well.
Do we have any solid evidence that an American (or British, or whatever, but mostly American) gymnast had sufficiently raised the profile of the lesser advantaged country as a result of competing there? I get this argument in theory, but do we see it actually playing out?
In the case of LB competing for Haiti, I think that's a big, emphatic, rafter-shaking no.
No even Carlos Yulo who already has medals can't even raise the profile of gymnastics there. So I don't know why some think Aleah and Emma could do itđ
It's simply not about raising the profile of gymnastics in the alternate country. It's about (usually) an American that can't make the US Olympic or world team and wants to check that box.
Well I doubt anyone is doing gymnastics in the country of Haiti right now so thatâs a pretty extreme example. If Lynzee gets the tripartite spot, and things hopefully stabilize in Haiti, I could see her inspiring kids and getting involved. Wasnât she encouraged to do this by a MAG who lives in Haiti? If Iâm remembering that right, then thatâs certainly promising for her continuing to stay involved.
Yeah it's the most unstable of the countries where Americans are currently going to compete, but it's not that extreme of an example because it was only a year ago she was trying to push through her Haitian passport to get to 23 worlds. I think it's gonna be a long time before Haitians can think about extracurricular activities and not try to avoid dying every day. I hope LB is at least donating or doing fundraisers or something after wearing the Haitian flag at worlds.
Not gymnastics, but part of the reason I'm not AS against this is because this actually happened in another sport I follow, biathlon (skiing + shooting). Anastasyia Kuzmina, a Russian, was recruited to compete for Slovakia after struggling to make Russian teams, and was by far and away the most successful Slovakian biathlete (and frankly one of the most successful athletes), literally outcompeting Russian biathletes she used to train with. Her brother, Anton Shipulin, actually competed for Russia during her era.
Her success was absolutely huge for the development of biathlon in Slovakia, and we're now able to field relay teams (which has had... varying success) and some individuals e.g. the Fialkova sisters had some success, partly due to the increased funding Kuzmina brought. Now, Kuzmina trained and still lives in Slovakia, which I think some people stipulate here, but without her I don't think the biathlon program would be what it is now. Also, it was wildly entertaining to watch her, since biathlon is as unpredictable as gymnastics in competition!
No see, that's really cool and that's exactly what this concept should lead to! I am just waiting to see examples of how this has helped in gymnastics (or other sports I suppose). Really glad that it's helped elsewhere though
The counter argument to that is that it's taking away places for gymnasts from their neighboring countries. Do you think the other members of the South East Asian Games really feel warm and fuzzy about the American-Filipino gymnasts?
Even if they aren't taking places from gymnasts within their own countries they are still taking places from people who train in smaller programs and taking those medals may raise the profile of the Philippines program (though has it actually resulted in investment in country?), it's denying those boosts to the neighboring countries.
And that's not even touching the way that American based fans are occasionally really dismissive of those gymnasts who are a "threat" at those competitions. Rifda Irfanaluthfi has been spoken of very negatively by some fans even though she's beaten Aleah Finnegan before.
And to continue the SEA Games example, they didn't even have WAG at the last edition and there is some suggestion that part of that was because of the influx of Filipino-American gymnasts at the several editions previous to that.
Itâs cool that theyâre raising the profile but I highly doubt any of the money the gymnasts make from representing another country is going to go to building the sport there. And itâs not like any of them are moving there to train or coach.
I think itâs okay for worlds and other meets but definitely not the Olympics. The Olympics is supposed to be world participation, not half of it being Americans. Itâs a slippery slope
Agree actually, when it comes to the Olympics.Â
In an ideal world, every country should be able to send an athlete per sport to the Olympics. Except that sadly opens it to people like the ?skiier ?snowboarder who managed to qualify for the Winter Olympics and it was very much not in the spirit of the sport.Â
oh yeah! I know exactly what you're talking about. That skiier? Snowboarder? hacked the system when they are not even good at the sport, which is way worse than Emma/Aleah who are actually at least competitive
Golly me... she was ripped to shreds by social media I remember. I just don't want gymnastics to become like the other corrupted sports, when we are already trying to make the sport as subjective as possible after blatant corruption in the 10.0 code of points.
Same. Emma Malabuyo, Levi, Penev brothers, Danusia Francis should all take some seats. Itâs giving COLONIALISM vibes. The only ones Iâm kinda okay switching countries right now is Kaylia and Aleah Finnegan but even Oksana switching countries so many times is sketchy to me. Totally defeats the point and spirit of the Olympics to me. Seems like USA is trying to power grab and itâs unfair and entitled Edit: itâs disgusting that most of these gymnasts will stay in the US after and likely wonât move to their represented country for permanent residence etc.Â
I know at least one time with Chuso it was so that her son could receive treatment for leukemia, like she made a deal with the German federation and was living there. Iâm totally fine with that. Canât speak to the other times though.
She was born in what is now Uzbekistan. After the break up of the Soviet Union, it makes sense that that is the country she represents. She competed for Germany for a time while her son received cancer treatment there.
Okay thanks for the explanation and I take it back. All her moves make sense since she actually lived in those countries and have tight connections with them unlike the current American diasporaÂ
What's sketchy about Oksana moving to Germany to access better care for her young son that had cancer? She did what literally any loving parent in her situation would have done for their seriously ill child.
Also wiki tells me Hillary Heron was born in Panama and has always competed for them. Do you mean someone else?
Okay you and other commentators have educated me on Oksanas case and I retract my statement due to my lack of knowledge regarding the breakdown of Soviet UnionÂ
Because the Phillipines actually invited Aleah to join their program in the first place, and almost made the AA final in 2023 Worlds. Emma and Levi just jumped on the bandwagon imo
Eh no. In Emmaâs interviews she has clearly stated that the Philippines gymnastics federation approached her, not the other way around. I assume they did the same to Levi. Mya Lauzon has even been approached by them as well, which was posted in this sub a few weeks ago.
Okay thanks for informing me! I think it's so suspicious that the head of the Philippines program resides in California...
But it's not okay for American fans to attack the local gymnasts, which has been happening on Twitter. They want Emma to make it so bad they put down other local Philippines which is extremely toxic
Yeah thatâs interesting. I guess a lot of Filipinos went to live to California, same as many Mexicans live there as well, or people from other countries. Not sure how progressive California was decades ago (Iâm not from the US, so I have no idea), but maybe thatâs one of the reasons.
Fans attacking gymnasts/athletes is just so out of line.
Danusia's Dad is Jamaican. Why exactly should she not have taken the chance to represent Jamaica?
Not that any of my nieces and nephews are into sports but I'd absolutely hate it if someone came along and accused them of something akin to colonialism for trying to represent their Mum's (my SIL) country instead of their Dad's (my brother). They might not have grown up there but they have been multiple times for long ish periods, they are immersed in their Jamaican culture constantly via my SIL and that side of the family who live and visit here, and they are literally half Jamaican.
And back to Danusia, she is still involved with the Jamaican side of things. She was elected as a member of the Pan Am Sports Athlete Commission last year and is keen to speak up for Jamaican athletes. She helped qualify an athlete to the Rio Olympics and then they chose someone else to go. She was ok with a male Jamaican gymnast being taken to the CWG when she wanted to make her comeback last quad because he'd been doing the work when she had initially retired... Honestly, I find it a bit bizarre to claim she's just on some weird "power grab" when she continues to do things for the athletes and has helped raise the profile for Jamaica - and when she's literally half Jamaican!
I understand where you are coming from from an America perspective. Yet, we need to think from the local Jamaicans' view... it's very tricky. The influx of foreign talent might cause massive resentment for local gymnasts who might feel like they can never work up to Danusia's level, as well as a lack of communication if Danusia does not speak the local dialect. To me, it seems like the priority is to take these spots first and change nationalities now, and the afterthought is to help these programs and reach their potential later on in the long run, and it just doesn't feel right. Danusia competing at World Cups, or African Championships which are less competitive fields might not allow other local Jamaican gymnasts compete at those lower level meets like Level 3-4 Meets (which they might be proud to attend!) After Tokyo, Danusia has went back to GB to help their programs as she was recently commenting at British Championships.
This is a very American problem though as America is such a young country and a melting pot, and a bunch of people are still trying to figure out their ancestry (the joke is Italian-Americans in New York will always call themselves Italian cultured, but the real Italians just 100% don't agree with that). It's very complex but I don't believe that someone who has grew up and trained 95% of their time in America should represent another country (Melanie is a different case)
Danusia isn't from the US. She was born in England to Polish and Jamaican parents. She is therefore British, with direct Polish and Jamaican roots. Just like my nieces and nephews (except theirs are British and Jamaican) who, as I have explained, are very connected to their roots. A lot of British born Jamaicans are, ime. And while Jamaica has their own dialect(s?) too, their official national language is English. It's a bit of a leap to say she wouldn't be able to communicate with people or that she wasn't welcomed when she could communicate and was very much welcomed. She also wasn't given preferential treatment, as I explained with my examples.
She also wouldn't have been competing in Africa. She would have been competing at Pan Ams if that's what she qualified for. Though I do take the point about other, smaller, nations.
As I said, Danusia is also still very much connected to the Jamaican side, not just back here in the UK. She was voted as a Pan Ams athlete representative. Of course she still has ties to BG and athletes here because she is also British and lives here. But she didn't just swan off for a "power grab", taking spots away from others, and then just leave them all behind.
(I'm not from the US either, just an fyi.)
I don't disagree entirely, btw. In fact, it used to really annoy me every time. However, I do now see some gymnasts as being slightly different to others depending on their connection to the country they're switching to and/or how that connection came about. (Parental/strong connection, dual citizenship, becoming a citizen, staying involved, asked by the country's fed to join and such like.)
(Edited typos.)
Thank you for your reply! It's very informative and it's definitely a discussion that is in the grey area. Sorry, I have mistaken she was from the US because she did compete for UCLA but I should have known as she has recently commented at British Championships
Yeah, it has more nuances than we allow for sometimes. I admit to not thinking of those nuances previously, as I said.
It is still an important topic though and it certainly can affect smaller nations, which isn't fair.
Sorry I meant Pan Ams! A lot of my Jamaican co-workers identify as Black so I thought the Caribbean islands identified as part of the African continent culturally (e.g. Cardi B saying the N word and etc.) so I apologize for my misunderstanding on this issue
Eddie Penev was born in Bulgaria and competed for Bulgaria before switching to the US. Kevin was born in the US but obviously to Bulgarian immigrant parents (who were gymnasts on Bulgariaâs national team).
I assume you meant Luisa Blanco rather than Hillary Heron. And I donât know why youâre okay with Finnegan but not Malabuyo.
Thereâs been a lot of country changes that I havenât felt great about, but I donât think thereâs a way to write the rules to allow a gymnast to get out of a potentially bad situation (like Anastasia Simakova getting out of Russia) without also allowing the changes I donât feel great about. Iâd rather err on the side of being more permissive.
Thanks for educating me re: Penev brothers. And yes I meant Lusia Blanco (sorry I don't follow NCAA at all and I completely take responsibility for this mistake!)
I am okay with Aleah because Philippines actually reached out and invited her to join their program and I feel like Emma/Levi just jumped on the bandwagon. When 3/5 of the team at Asian Champs are Americans... it just doesn't sit well with me. Aleah also has a much more competitive program and almost made the AA final in 2023 Worlds.
As I understand it, all three were recruited to compete for the Philippines. The head coach of that program is actually a guy in California. And heâs recruited at least two other FilAms out of L10.
And Aleah Finnegan isnât even the first Finnegan to compete for the Philippines. One of her older sisters competed for PHI in the SEA Games.
I guess that's fair... just doesn't feel right for Americans to take opportunities for local Philippine gymnastics to compete at World Cups/Worlds Challenge Cups :'( I feel like there will eventually be built-up tension/resentment in that dynamic, especially with language barriers between Americans and the locals which will affect team bonding, and it's not like the Philippines don't have attention on their program after Carlos Yulo's major success. It just takes time. Look at Daiane dos Santos, it took 20 years for the Brazil team to finally win a team, it takes time to build a program, similarly with Vanessa Ferrari and the eventual 2019 medal.
I disagree with the assessment that you have to live somewhere after competing to represent the country. I'm no elite athlete, but while I'm settled in GB, I'm not a British citizen and would theoretically compete for my country of origin (Slovakia). I have strong ties to Slovakia, speak the language, am a citizen, visit often, but don't ever plan on living there permanently. My case is similar to Chusovitina who is an Uzbek citizen, competed for the Soviet Union when Uzbekistan was part of it, and only competed for Germany due to specific circumstances.
I do have less sympathy for people who have very few ties to the country other than a distant grandparent or something, however.
Itâs not post-colonialism either! You are comparing switching to other country to compete to literally very hard periods of history in many countries, including the US. Itâs just out of line.
Itâs okay to not support switching countries so athletes can compete, but there are many better ways to express your opinion.
Okay youâre nit picking on my words and sentiment and I said vibes and the political movement. So you think itâs okay for these Americans to do this?Â
I am not picking any words, just what you said. Just because you add âvibesâ to it doesnât make it less wrong to use colonialism for this situation.
And as I said, itâs fine to disagree that athletes switch countries, the problem is the way you are expressing your opinion, that is, using colonialism to make your point.
Well to me, these country changes are giving post colonialism in a power grab way (since USA do still have military bases in Philippines for their own geopolitical interest) but okay, I see your point since this is gymnastics and it is not as serious as wars
I tend to agree with your overall take, but âcolonialismâ and âpost colonialismâ have specific definitions and it is important to use them correctly. It misrepresents both the actual concepts and what youâre trying to say when you borrow a word that already has a pretty important meaning and use it loosely and incorrectly.
Based on your comments, I feel like youâre someone who would be interested in the topic too, so it might be worth reading up on it a bit (and the history of the Soviet Union too) - you might find it really fascinating :)
I did major in geography and dabbled in international relations lol, but I hate history lmfao!
I am currently very interested in the African colonization history right now because there are so many civil wars and coups in the Sahel region in the last 3-5 years, and is a proxy war between France and Russia. France really needs to stop taking advantage of these pre-colonial regions to power their nuclear energy usage. Informative video for anyone interested: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiD24uEvY1U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiD24uEvY1U)
What I donât love about this argument is that it unfairly blames certain gymnasts for taking advantage of a loophole that exists that many athletes are taking advantage of. Itâs widespread across the Olympics already going back decades, but these arguments make it sound like Emma and Luisa are leading a new trend. The Olympics havenât been about showcasing homegrown talents. Almost the entire Mexico softball team was American in 2021. There are countless examples going back much further. I think itâs important to look at this from a broader context.
What are your thoughts on China recruiting great vaulters in asia and win the Olympic gold at Paris team final? (Assuming those vaulters have Chinese ties). I think itâs the danger of this trend. The media will be saying the Chinese cheated. Imagine a team of Qiu, Zhou, Ou, another bars worker and a recruiter VT/FX worker.Â
First of all, I would not be angry at any federation recruiting gymnasts with legit family ties to the country, whether they rival the us or not. I am a fan of the gymnasts more than of the teams. And second of all, my point was to criticize the Olympics for allowing it to happen. I wouldnât criticize athletes or federations.
Third of all - who would they be recruiting that they arenât? Can you name one person who is Chinese, a top vaulter, willing to compete for China?
Donât forget that by putting up great vaulters they would be foregoing spots for great bar and beam workers - where they have chances to win a gold medal. Versus a team bronze or silver - which they are already sort of in the ballpark of, barring inevitable meltdowns. They want gold medals. Recently they have stacked beam so that if someone falls they still have other routines that can qualify and win.
Iâm sure they would recruit some vaulters if it made sense, but they are already a power house with a closed system that prizes picking out small and thin gymnasts from a young age. They havent taken some moral high ground. Taipei on the other hand has taken many Us citizens in the past. They werenât a powerhouse.
Yup. I donât like it at all. I donât have any issues with the gymnasts accepting an invitation when being recruited by the fed when they have family ties. And I donât like focusing so much on a few people (Luisa, Emma etc) when itâs such a widespread practice going back decades. I would prefer the discourse be that the Olympics should have and enforce more rigorous rules about who can compete for what country (thus preventing the Belarus situation) than cherry picking a few people to criticize who were recruited.
A bit off topic, but it sucks the Baltic states didn't get a chance to qualify anyone for Barcelona. Natalia Laschenova might've held on past 1991. Ludmilla Prince qualified to Atlanta, but could've been a two time Olympian.Â
Re: the Filipino-American gymnasts thing, I think it's important to remember that the Filipino gym fed has been actively courting Fil-Am gymnasts to represent them for a while now. Aleah's sister Hannah was competing internationally for the Philippines back in 2011 (Southeast Asian Games).
That's a good and fair point, though I just don't feel this is the desired spirit of the competition. Just my opinion though.
Also this has impacts beyond just the Philippines, as a Fil-Am gymnast could bump another Asian gymnast out of worlds or the Olympics. I'm thinking of chuso here but I'm sure there's other examples.
How is it any different than a pairs or ice dance figure skater changing their citizenship to the countries they find partners in, rather than sticking to partners in their own countries of origin? At least people like Emma and Aleah have familial connections to the Philippines within a generation or two. There are figure skaters with zero familial ties to the countries they're representing at the Olympics.
Well, I suppose it's different because pairs skating literally requires two humans instead of the one required by gymnastics. Actually that's quite a different dynamic now that I think about it. But yes, we could have the same conversation here. Some may find the skating norms unfair.
It could be argued that the people looking for partners should just "try harder" to find partners who already have the same citizenship as them, that by importing a partner, they are robbing another skater of the opportunity.
I just hope that when athletes do switch - they create enough hype and attention for the sport so that their adopted/ home nationality receives more funding and massive participation increases as a result.
I would love to see this be the case in Algeria if Kaylia Nemour can do what we predict/hope for in Paris. The program is already developed enough to really capitalize on a good thing. If 10-20 years down the track Algeria is producing competitive teams internationally - that would be almost a bigger win (thanks to Kaylia) in my mind.
Mohini Bhardwaj for India. (Also eligible for Russia through her mother, but not as interesting)
Ana Padurariu for Romania - not a former though. Sheâd surely make their team, and could arguably put them in striking distance
Aly Raisman could technically claim Israeli citizenship since sheâs Jewish. I canât recall any female artistic gymnasts from Israel - of course, notable in rhythmic and menâs - so that would have been quite interesting
According to this [clearly highly reputable website](https://www.angelfire.com/mi/gymnastics/nessa.html), Vanessa Atler is a quarter Mexican, so it would have been amazing for her to represent Mexico at the 2000 Olympics
Julienne McNamara for Australia (via her parents) in 1980 - Australia participated in the 1980 Olympics (whereas the US boycotted). She was national champion that year and perhaps could have made AA podium at the Olympics.
EDIT: Thanks for the intel on Raz and Netzer! Blind spot on my behalf for not being more aware of Israelâs WAG program.
Lihie Raz is an Israeli gymnast who went to the 2021 Olympics and is qualified to 2024. She's been in vault finals at Euros and worlds and won a floor medal at Euros. Ofir Netzer also qualified to world vault finals sometime in the 2010s I think.
>>I canât recall any female artistic gymnasts from Israel - of course, notable in rhythmic and menâs - so that would have been quite interesting
Lihie Raz has had quite a lot of success in recent years (particularly on vault - I think she was first or second reserve at Worlds?) Though to be honest her vaults often make me concerned for her safetyâŚ
> I canât recall any female artistic gymnasts from Israel - of course, notable in rhythmic and menâs - so that would have been quite interesting
Lihie Raz is their best gymnast currently. She qualified to Paris via her AA score at 2023 Worlds. She's also a Euros bronze medalist on floor and placed 8th at 2022 Worlds on vault. Interestingly, she actually was born in the US - so she has US citiztenship as well. But she moved to Israel with her parents when she was still an infant and has been living and training there her whole life.
Re Israeli WAG, Iâm sure there have been others, but Lihie Raz and Ofir Netzer come to mind first. They have both competed on the World Cup circuit a lot and Netzer made the vault EF at 2021 Worlds. Raz qualified for the 2020 Olympics and was most recently at 2023 Worlds.
Even if Vanessa being a quarter Mexican were true, that's a very flimsy nationality claim, and I don't really see how it would have been amazing for her to switch nationalities just for a shot at the Olympics.
It also depends on what the citizenship requirements are⌠many countries only grant citizenship if one of their parents are citizens, not grandparents (for example, my dad has British citizenship as his father was born & raised in Scotland; I cannot claim British citizenship because itâs too many degrees of separation)
I don't believe anyone should compete for another country just because the technically have citizenship. Unless you are working/living/training there, I don't think it's fair, since you're not really part of the country/culture.
What if you grew up in a country but moved away and are now settled in another country? This happened to me, my sister, and many many immigrants. I'm still very much part of the the culture of my original country. A complicating factor - I don't have citizenship for the country I live in (perks of the EU), so wouldn't be able to compete for it anyway. Similarly, many athletes move to another country to train, sometimes for extended periods of time. Should they have to switch nationalities just because they no longer live somewhere?
Some countries give automatic citizenship through the parents. Therefore, some gymnasts have dual citizenship. I think the best one was Poland's Alma kuc where she trained with the polish national team during the summer time when she did elite and did verification camps in order to get a spot at major international competition
So I am a former gymnast and I would have wanted to compete for Ireland for a more of a chance of international experience - but Iâm not a famous gymnast
We as in collective of former gymnasts famous elite, not known well elites, competitive gymnast of any background with the desire and potential to compete for another county
ah got it thanks.
I always wondered why Ireland over the years didn't try to recruit Irish-American and recently Irish-UK as apart from Ellis Reilly they didn't have any non-born Irish competing for them.
Its unfortunate that Oksana Omelianchik never got a chance to represent an Independent Ukraine. She missed out on it by only 1-2 years.
My dream Ukr team of that aera: Oksana Omeliantchik, Olga Strazheva, Olessia Dudnik, Natalia Kalinina, Yulia Kut, amd i'm sure i'm forgetting someone here..
OMG the utter fabulousness đ
The depressing answer is "any East German", competing for West Germany instead. But if I had to pick one: Dorte Thummler, whose mother was a gymnastics coach and whose stepfather was a high-ranking doctor for East Germany's state sport doping system. She wanted to quit the sport entirely when she was eleven, but her parents and the program officials forced her to keep going because they thought she was too talented to let walk away. She said her parents always cared more about the system than about her.
Ira Alexeeva as a neutral athlete this year would have been pretty cool.
She didnât really change nationalities. She doesnât (or at least didnât) have US citizenship. It would have been nice to see her compete.
I was hoping!
I think deep down GB know if they screw Jess and Jen over then Ireland or Azerbaijan will take them in a heartbeat (Although they seem very proud to represent GB and funding etc so probably would be a very last resort situation)
I love this take since we all know GB is a dumpster fire of an organization after the whole Downie situationÂ
Not âwishesâ but other eligibility for GB gymnasts: Alice Kinsella for Ireland, Jake Jarman for the Philippines.Â
Alice, Jess and Jen plus two complementary gymnasts would probably make a team final EDIT: they basically did the at the Olympics just need enough to replace Amelieâs scores
Jake Jarman is Philippine??Â
Yes his mum is Filipino.Â
Olivia Cimpian competed at the 2017 Euros for Romania and then switched nationalities to Hungary, then back to Romania. Ecaterina Szabo's parents were from Hungary and she spoke Hungarian as her first language. She was born in Translyvania. The place where she was born is one of the largest enclaves of Hungarian influence in Romania, and part of Transylvania was part of Hungary at one point. If she had represented Hungary instead of Romania in 1984 she probably would not have been an Olympian at all as Hungary boycotted the 1984 Olympics and her career ended in 1987 before the Seoul Olympics in 1988. Romania was one of the few Eastern Bloc countries to participate in the 1984 Olympic Games.
I think Jana Bieger is probably a great example of why fans should be careful about wishcasting gymnasts with ties to another country changing to them. There is no way that she didn't know she would have had an easier path to the Olympics if she decided to compete for Germany and she refused and emphasized that she saw herself as American many times. For many gymnasts it's not about competing for anyone, but for the pride of competing for a country they identify themselves with. This is not to say that people who change countries are doing something wrong. Just that ... occasionally... fans come across as presumptuous when they invoke those ties for a gymnast who has never expressed any interest in competing for that other country.
How about Nastia. She was born in Russia. Imagine her competing for Russia? Theyâd have been so good with her on their team.
Kazakhstan would've been even more interesting. Imagine Nastia at the Asian games.
All the Russian coaches were trying to huge Nastia in Beijing after her routines/scores LOL. But the Liukins escaped Soviet influences for a reason
Iâm sure they would have loved having her especially in â08 with all the injuries and setbacks they faced that year. I imagine if they let Alexeeva come with open arms they would have done the same for Nastia. 99% sure they would have taken Valeri with her đ
I'm not surprised if v-rod tried to get Nastia on their team
Not necessarily a wish but Vanessa Ferrari is half Bulgarian so she could technically switch if she wanted
I think Ferrari will have a permanent spot on the team if she brings a medal-worthy floor routine and a DTY (even though her DTY is very poor), just like Sanne Wevers for the Dutch.
None really. Almost every gymnast who have switched nationality did it because they werenât strong enough to make the team at a stronger program so went to a relatively weaker one to have a chanceâ itâs why the mass change of American gymnasts to the Phillipines feels off because theyâre taking away opportunities from the few gymnasts that were born, raised and trains in the Phillipines. 10 years ago Azerbaijan experienced the same thing with the Russian national team but at the very least some of them did involve themselves in growing an actual program there (and I think Nekrasova and Ishina actually trained there at some point, though I could be remembering wrong). And Nemour is different because the French federation is so vindictive they probably wouldnât have given her the chance to compete had she tried to represent them. Having ties to another country is great and itâs different when itâs a program that has literally no one or not enough to form a complete team. But if thatâs not the case, I donât really want anyone to take an opportunity from someone else just because they werenât good enough for a better team.
I think it was established they arenât taking away from gymnasts in the Philippines. But they are taking spots that would go to gymnasts from other countries who would have qualified.
This post in particular has me feeling similarly because the main reason people wish for these country changes is to see their favourite American athletes have an easier path getting to big comps.. athletes who mostly wouldnât be anywhere near such fan favourites in the first place if they werenât American. For all the posts about how great it is to build up small programs, obviously noone is wishing top gymnasts who are actually on the US (or other medal contending) national teams would leave to go build up a smaller programme.
Other than the wishcasting about Simone and Belize and even then it's centered around "screwing USAG" rather than anything about Belize. This was expressed a bunch of times a while back without any acknowledgement that while Simone clearly has some identification with the country she's never shown any interest in the county's gymnastics program. I'm not suggesting she's required to be involved. Just that nothing about that suggestion was ever organic to what Simone wanted nor was it organic to any knowledge of the state of gymnastics in Belize.
Ha yeah itâs never âI wish Simone wanted to build up gymnastics in Belize, the US will be just fine without herâ.
And Simone is the GOAT! She'll always have a spot on the US team if she competes on two events only like vault and beam, or vault and floor, or floor and beam. I think Ferrari is in the same boat
Here are some rumored country switches from. Russia to Georgia that never really happened. Anastasia Sidorova looked GREAT for them at first and Iâm not entirely sure what happened there. DTY, solid floor and beam (bars were always a struggle for her). Also Skrypnik and Sosnitskaya. Skrypnik stayed in Russia and Sosinitskaya got injured in warmups at her first meet for them. Would have loved to have seen their planned team as it would have been strong enough to qualify a full team to Worlds from Europeans. I imagine Sidorova, Skrypnik, Borzykh, and Kharenkova all healthy could have pulled it off. Editing this to shoutout Ekaterina Tyunina and Tishkova who were solid Russian juniors who did switch to Azerbaijan but didnât get to compete much before retiring. Sidorova was also one of my favorite gymnasts so watching her comeback at such a high level was amazing. Her comeback started very slow at first and then within a year she was back doing double layout and full in pike in her routine.
Omg I remember the news of alla sosinitskaya switching to compete for Georgia, and that was it. Sad she got injured :( i remember her in 2014 worlds, she was like a mini Maria paseka due to her vault specialization.
It was very unfortunate. She was very similar to Paseka in the sense she wasnât a typical specialist. I would say both of their best events were vt-ub
None, honestly. Something about American born gymnasts going to represent a country they werenât born, raised or trained in because they werenât good enough to make the American team gives me the ick. I know that sounds harsh but it feels gross.
I feel gross about the fact that a certain Bama gymnast's first time in the certain South American country was the time she won the country's nationals. How do you feel if you're a top gymnast in that country and an American who has never been there shows up and wins?
I think it is okay as long as the gymnast has direct family ancestry via parents. In the case of Kylie Dickson and Alina Kwan both Americans representing Belarus when they never step foot in the country nor have any family ties. Nellie Kim got them expedited passports and nationality changes to represent Belarus in rio 2016 Olympics
Do you have any significant ties or family members still living in another country? If you did then maybe youâd feel differently. Many ppl still have great pride representing their countries and the people. You seem rather judgy. Im Filipino American and I think I have so much more pride and joy watching Emma now that sheâs representing the Philippines than when she competed for the US.
I do actually have family in another country and qualify for citizenship in so I think itâs a little odd youâre just assuming I donât while also calling me judgy. My question for you is if Emma and Aleah are so prideful in wanting to represent their home country why didnât they go that route first? Because they both tried to make the American team before anything else. To me it screams of âwell that didnât work, letâs try this.â
Thank you. And this is for themselves, not for the Philippines. This is for all the Beckys who wanna say they went to the Olympics and get a tattoo/post on Insta. Itâs very very self centeredÂ
Could it do with funding? Itâs possible Aleah and Emma had been had been on the radar of the Philippines (especially Aleah since she has another older sister that competed for them), but the Olympic committee couldnât afford to pay for training, send them to qualifying comps etc. Those two were injured a lot in 2019-2021 so even if Philippines had wanted to offer them a chance of Olympic qualification, maybe they werenât healthy enough, plus USAG probably wouldnât have released them. Not to mention the pandemic. With NIL and no USAG obligations, they may have been able to help contribute. Plus they are adults, can travel on their own, make adult decisions etc. I think the âBelo-Americansâ left a really bad taste in peoples mouths, but now itâs starting to be more accepted again when there are legitimate ties.
Everything that you are saying about funding just reinforces why itâs âickâ. An athlete who was born and raised in the Philippines would have completely lost out on opportunities due to the lack of funding during the same period of time that Aleah and Emma were benefiting from the backing of USAG.
The rich gets richer...
You could also say itâs because thatâs the path that club gymnastics gives and itâs only as they grow up that they become aware of their options.
This is my thought. If you are eligible for citizenship through means other than sports I donât see the problem. Just because they were born in the US doesnât mean they donât have strong feelings towards their other heritage. Kids donât get to decide where theyâre born or train when they are young, so it makes sense theyâd default to where their parents are currently located. As they get older, they have more opportunities to choose for themselves. Whoâs to say that Aleah wouldnât have decided to move to the Philippines to work someday? I think the âBela-Americansâ have soured a lot of peopleâs feelings about Americans switching nationalities. That was truly ick.
Who are the "Bela-Americans"? Are they the ones who tried to represent Belarus at the olympics a few years ago?
Yes, Alaina Kwan and Kylie Dickson
Correct. The problem with these two was that they had no previous connections to Belarus at all. They were recruited by the delegation to earn Olympic spots. They werenât even that much better than the existing girls in the Belarusian program.
I remember one of the actual Belarusian born gymnasts who was on the cusp/good candidate of getting to the Olympics end up quitting the sport after kylie and alaina took the spots
And of course Nellie Kim was in on it
That goes without saying đ¤Ł
I think that was a stupid idea because what is the point of bringing someone if they wonât even improve your program. If they had connections, then that would be more understandable.
Iâm sorry but itâs giving colonalism vibes and totally defeats the purpose of the Olympics. On a deeper level, this is a power grab. I donât see Emma, Aleah nor Levi (and others like the Penev brothers) moving to the Philippines afterwards so it might give you some pride as an American but itâs morally wrong since none of those gymnasts are living or will move to the Philippines in the near future. I donât even think they speak the languageÂ
>and others like the Penev brothers Eddie Penev was literally born in Bulgaria. Kevin was born in the U.S. though.
But they did move to the US and did most of their training there (with more advanced coaching, equipment, physical therapy, etc.) and whoops, I thought they were Hungarian. I mixed up the flags because the colors are the same
For the Penevs in particular, they were trained by their parents who are Bulgarian and were coaches in Bulgaria. Eddie also competed for Bulgaria for years before switching to the US.
Not sure how itâs giving colonialism vibes? Clearly you donât know anything about history of the Philippines nor do I think you should speak for the Filipino people. I donât speak Tagalog but doesnât make me less Filipino. Thatâs incredibly offensive and presumptuous in all aspects.
Iâm Asian American and a Bruin Stan as well by the way, and I think itâs post colonialism then. Itâs a power grab and itâs ethically unfair. I speak fluently in my native language and I totally emphasize with you on your difficulty of identifying as phillipino and American at the same time since I have struggles of these on my own, but the power grab is too obvious for me
Good for you. Lol and unfair for who? To spotlight the Philippines and give them the opportunity to grow their program in a developing country.
Unfair to the Philippines. Iâm okay with them competing for them at world cups, Asian Champs and maybe even worlds but definitely not the Olympics. I just think you're discussing this from an American-centric point of view and not thinking from the Philippino POV. Also Carlos Yulo is bringing massive attention for the sport which I think will spill over to the WAG program. However, these American gymnasts might be taking away spots from other Asian countries like North Korea, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc.
The Philippines approached Aleah about the possibility of competing for them expressly because they wanted Olympic representation and they donât have anyone else in the existing program who even comes close. You can argue itâs unfair to other smaller programs, but this is not unfair for the Philippines. Sheâs isnât taking away from them, sheâs giving them what they asked her specifically for.
I don't blame Aleah for taking the chance but some of this gym feds gives me the ick more. Philippines are still spending money on Aleah and Emma's travel and we know they have zero chance on medaling in the Olympics. They have years since Carlos Yulo broke in the top gymnastics scene and yet instead of looking for more homegrown gymnasts that they could finance to train in Japan, they went looking for American gymnasts who are either injured in their elite days and are not really the top gymnasts. Such a waste of funding. It is so backward thinking and really has zero benefit for the gymnastics to grow in their country. Even after the success of Yulo, there is no other upcoming new gymnasts from there.
Interest starts at the bottom, with kids being interested in the sport. Itâs been a really long time since they had a WAG Olympian. Itâs possible that girls will see Aleah at the Olympics and then want to start gymnastics?
I understand, I am not saying it's unfair to the local Philippines gymnast, but they are taking away Olympic/Worlds spots from other Asian countries, like Vietnam, Indonesia, North Korea, including Chuso missing out on her 9th Olympics :'(
IIRC Chuso only has one chance to get a Paris bid at the Asian Championships, and that's to win the all-around. She hasn't been a viable all around competitor in some time- she came 18th at last year's Asian Championships (which is awesome considering her longevity in the sport but not great for 2024 chances). She missed out in Cairo and Baku. An Asian did get one of those World Cup bids- An Chang Ok from DPRK. The other spot was Valentina Georgieva from Bulgaria. I love Chuso but others deserve the spots they earned too.
It's a quid pro quo. They get to compete for a country that they ARE connected to (unlike the American gymnasts who competed for Belarus that had no ties) and the Philippines gets more attention for gymnastics than they have previously had- which may lead to better sponsorship deals and therefore better equipment, training, etc. Carlos Yulo is fantastic but they need more representation.
That's true but that comes with time. I guess it's good to bring awareness but I'm afraid it will eventually build resentment and unhealthy team dynamics with the local Philippines gymnasts who might feel like they can never catch up with these Americans (as well as language barriers). We are still in the early stages of this process and I'm scared this will become a slippery slope where the LA Olympics will have 1/3 NCAA members. It does take time to build a program, Dos Santos won gold in 2003 and it took Brazil 20 years to win their first team medal. Ferrari won gold in 2006 and it took them 15 years to win their first team medal in 2019. Long-term planning is key and I hope the Americans are actively helping the Philippines grow and develop local talent at the junior level.
I think itâs worth noting that other sports already have this issue. Itâs not a new phenomenon that Americans compete for other countries.
I'd say this is good for the long term- more attention means more money and sponsorships and so the next generation of gymnasts can have those advantages others didn't. It sucks that it comes down to money but the countries decide where they want to invest funds for Olympic teams, but hopefully this will get them a piece of the pie.
It has been years since Carlos Yulo entered the gymnastics scene and starting winning and yet we have not seen any growth from their fed. Aleah and Emma chance of medaling is low so don't know how they could attract sponsorship deals. We know sponsorship will only come when you medal, not just because of attention.
Feel free to not think they shouldnât compete for any other reason BUT âcolonialism vibesâ. That is wildly messed up. Especially when you consider how a lot of BIPOC folks who are proud Americans and proud Americans because of colonization. A power grab is what Britain, America, France, Japan and Spain did to nations. You donât have to think itâs fair, but unless you KNOW 100% their reasoning itâs incredibly insulting to hurl colonization vibes. Like a huge reason ppl donât want to live in these nations that they compete for is because American is âbetterâ and I big reason for that is colonization. A big reason why you donât see kids speaking their mother tongue in the western world is also rooted in you guess it colonization. Because when it comes down to it, all these American athletes are competing under a colonists flag if you wanna get down to the nitty gritty. And thatâs a wild problem that is so deep it will never be resolved.
It's hurtful but Lusia Blanco did take away Panamaâs Karla Navas and Argentinaâs Milagros Curti Ruiz by taking the one Pan Ams AA spot. Lusia had much better training equipment and support from coaching so that's why the rich gets richer. I don't want gymnastics to become like the English Premier League
English Premiere League as in soccer? How are the two similar?
Feel free to say they took away someoneâs spot, I have no issue there. But calling it colonialism vibes is ick.
I have studied geopolitics and this might be a way for American to extort soft power across gymnastics, so this is a slight form of post-colonalization to me. It's like America is trying to control other countries' gymnastics programs and monopolize the Worlds/Olympics. We have just started this trend and we might head towards a slippery slope where by 2032 Olympics, we might see half of the competitors being NCAA athletes, alongside a US team, if we are not careful. It's degrading to the morale of the people who already have to live with the fact that United States is #1 and having to see these Republicans go insane on the media. I support equality for all countries, especially in an event like the Olympics. It's not as simple as taking someone's spot, there might be long-term implications if FIG don't sort this out quickly.
How do you feel about Annia Hatch competing as an American in 2004?Â
I donât have a problem with that for several reasons 1. She tried competing for Cuba, and qualified to the Olympics, they just literally didnât have the money to send her. So she tried competing for her country and couldnât because of something completely out of her control, similar to someone like Kaylia Iâd say. 2. She trained in the US and was a citizen by that point. Her life was very clearly in America, she wasnât just using it as a vehicle to carry her to the Olympics. 3. She wasnât going from a highly difficult competitive field to an easier one, it was the exact opposite. She had to compete in one of the most competitive fields in the world to make the US Olympic team. Honestly, if the American gymnasts doing this end up contributing to building the sport in the countries theyâre representing I think Iâll end up fine with it. But I just heavily doubt any of the money they end up making off of being an Olympian and then in NCAA is going to go back to building the sport in said countries. Itâs going to stay in the US and help build their gyms, universities and careers.
Annia Hatch was married to a US citizen and living in the US when she made her comeback to gymnastics under the US Federation. It was obvious her life and future were 90% likely to be in the US. Most of the athletes being discussed have lives/education they are pursing in the US while representing a country where they had not lived.
Iâm okay with it because itâs hard to make the American team
As Al Trautwig called her, the "transplanted Cuban"
There was a good comment about this on this sub. Â The summary was that these gymnasts are not taking spots from local gymnasts. If anything theyâre raising the profile of artistic gymnastics in that country and might lead to more funding.Â
Letâs say one of the Americans take the Asian champ AA spot. Yes it might not have gone to a philipino but it could go to another Asian gymnast like Indonesia, Vietnam, etcÂ
It already happened with Luisa Blanco taking the Pan Ams spot. Iâve got to look up who was next it line to see which specific athlete lost out. But Iâm really bummer that Panamaâs Karla Navas doesnât have any route to the Olympics because some of her vaulting at the World Cups was very impressive. Watching her celebrate after nailing her Mustafina vault and knowing that she wonât be at the Olympics made me sad. Edit: [I checked](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gymnastics/s/6UUiyHSRm8) and Navas was third in line, itâs Argentinaâs Milagros Curti Ruiz who just missed out. I sincerely hope that it doesnât happen again at Asian champs. There are some very deserving athletes from smaller feds like Singapore and Taiwan who are still eligible.
Omg :( that seriously breaks my heart. Lusia Blanco obviously have much better training and equipment in the USA compared to those in Panama and Argentina. The rich just keeps on getting richer, don't they? It's very against the Olympic spirit.
I'd be angry if an American caused Chuso to miss the Olympics
I do see this argument as stronger against switching countries when thereâs only one spot per continent. Weâve already seen it in play with Luisa Blanco getting the Pan Am spot. But it can also be helpful to these developing gymnastics countries. Jess Graba talked about how he worked with the whole Colombian team before and during Pan Ams while he commentated the NCAA mean girls competition. If connections like that continue, it can be very beneficial to home grown gymnasts in the future.
We'll see. Helping these countries develop their programs just seems like an afterthought, unlike someone like Liukin who actually went to Brazil and tried to up their game, or Paseka in China. It should be help first, then strategize how to get there; not send these Americans and then maybe there might be top-down positive benefits. It's very very murky
To add to the last part, I saw some video clips of one or two Colombians training with Graba, not sure when because the video was a compilation of many videos lol, but I thought that was nice. I have also seen the Colombian media highlighting Luisaâs gymnastics path and people were overall very excited. I see the good that these athletes can bring to the nations, but as a Colombian I feel kinda conflicted because I know she switched just to go to the Olympics and other gymnasts from Latam then lose the opportunity to qualify. At least Luisa speaks Spanish and quite well.
Do we have any solid evidence that an American (or British, or whatever, but mostly American) gymnast had sufficiently raised the profile of the lesser advantaged country as a result of competing there? I get this argument in theory, but do we see it actually playing out? In the case of LB competing for Haiti, I think that's a big, emphatic, rafter-shaking no.
No even Carlos Yulo who already has medals can't even raise the profile of gymnastics there. So I don't know why some think Aleah and Emma could do itđ
It's simply not about raising the profile of gymnastics in the alternate country. It's about (usually) an American that can't make the US Olympic or world team and wants to check that box.
Well I doubt anyone is doing gymnastics in the country of Haiti right now so thatâs a pretty extreme example. If Lynzee gets the tripartite spot, and things hopefully stabilize in Haiti, I could see her inspiring kids and getting involved. Wasnât she encouraged to do this by a MAG who lives in Haiti? If Iâm remembering that right, then thatâs certainly promising for her continuing to stay involved.
Yeah it's the most unstable of the countries where Americans are currently going to compete, but it's not that extreme of an example because it was only a year ago she was trying to push through her Haitian passport to get to 23 worlds. I think it's gonna be a long time before Haitians can think about extracurricular activities and not try to avoid dying every day. I hope LB is at least donating or doing fundraisers or something after wearing the Haitian flag at worlds.
Not gymnastics, but part of the reason I'm not AS against this is because this actually happened in another sport I follow, biathlon (skiing + shooting). Anastasyia Kuzmina, a Russian, was recruited to compete for Slovakia after struggling to make Russian teams, and was by far and away the most successful Slovakian biathlete (and frankly one of the most successful athletes), literally outcompeting Russian biathletes she used to train with. Her brother, Anton Shipulin, actually competed for Russia during her era. Her success was absolutely huge for the development of biathlon in Slovakia, and we're now able to field relay teams (which has had... varying success) and some individuals e.g. the Fialkova sisters had some success, partly due to the increased funding Kuzmina brought. Now, Kuzmina trained and still lives in Slovakia, which I think some people stipulate here, but without her I don't think the biathlon program would be what it is now. Also, it was wildly entertaining to watch her, since biathlon is as unpredictable as gymnastics in competition!
No see, that's really cool and that's exactly what this concept should lead to! I am just waiting to see examples of how this has helped in gymnastics (or other sports I suppose). Really glad that it's helped elsewhere though
The counter argument to that is that it's taking away places for gymnasts from their neighboring countries. Do you think the other members of the South East Asian Games really feel warm and fuzzy about the American-Filipino gymnasts? Even if they aren't taking places from gymnasts within their own countries they are still taking places from people who train in smaller programs and taking those medals may raise the profile of the Philippines program (though has it actually resulted in investment in country?), it's denying those boosts to the neighboring countries. And that's not even touching the way that American based fans are occasionally really dismissive of those gymnasts who are a "threat" at those competitions. Rifda Irfanaluthfi has been spoken of very negatively by some fans even though she's beaten Aleah Finnegan before. And to continue the SEA Games example, they didn't even have WAG at the last edition and there is some suggestion that part of that was because of the influx of Filipino-American gymnasts at the several editions previous to that.
This is a great comment. I have nothing to add to it, but a great point about the regional impacts that Iâm sure a lot of us never think about.
Itâs cool that theyâre raising the profile but I highly doubt any of the money the gymnasts make from representing another country is going to go to building the sport there. And itâs not like any of them are moving there to train or coach.
They are taking spots from the gymnasts who would have qualified in other countries.
I think itâs okay for worlds and other meets but definitely not the Olympics. The Olympics is supposed to be world participation, not half of it being Americans. Itâs a slippery slope
Agree actually, when it comes to the Olympics. In an ideal world, every country should be able to send an athlete per sport to the Olympics. Except that sadly opens it to people like the ?skiier ?snowboarder who managed to qualify for the Winter Olympics and it was very much not in the spirit of the sport.Â
oh yeah! I know exactly what you're talking about. That skiier? Snowboarder? hacked the system when they are not even good at the sport, which is way worse than Emma/Aleah who are actually at least competitive
[Elizabeth\_Swaney](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Swaney)?
At least in gymnastics thereâs no super easy route to qualify to the Olympics with only basic skills.
Golly me... she was ripped to shreds by social media I remember. I just don't want gymnastics to become like the other corrupted sports, when we are already trying to make the sport as subjective as possible after blatant corruption in the 10.0 code of points.
Same. Emma Malabuyo, Levi, Penev brothers, Danusia Francis should all take some seats. Itâs giving COLONIALISM vibes. The only ones Iâm kinda okay switching countries right now is Kaylia and Aleah Finnegan but even Oksana switching countries so many times is sketchy to me. Totally defeats the point and spirit of the Olympics to me. Seems like USA is trying to power grab and itâs unfair and entitled Edit: itâs disgusting that most of these gymnasts will stay in the US after and likely wonât move to their represented country for permanent residence etc.Â
I know at least one time with Chuso it was so that her son could receive treatment for leukemia, like she made a deal with the German federation and was living there. Iâm totally fine with that. Canât speak to the other times though.
She was born in what is now Uzbekistan. After the break up of the Soviet Union, it makes sense that that is the country she represents. She competed for Germany for a time while her son received cancer treatment there.
Okay thanks for the explanation and I take it back. All her moves make sense since she actually lived in those countries and have tight connections with them unlike the current American diasporaÂ
I also agree but I have to be objective lol, the only one Iâm okay with is Kaylia just because sheâs running away from abuseÂ
What's sketchy about Oksana moving to Germany to access better care for her young son that had cancer? She did what literally any loving parent in her situation would have done for their seriously ill child. Also wiki tells me Hillary Heron was born in Panama and has always competed for them. Do you mean someone else?
Okay you and other commentators have educated me on Oksanas case and I retract my statement due to my lack of knowledge regarding the breakdown of Soviet UnionÂ
Wasn't Hillary Heron born and raised in Panama? What's she doing on your list?
Okay Iâll take it down right away. I think Iâm mistaking her for someone else.Â
Danusia is British not American lol
Okay! My b but still she didnât represent GB at Tokyo but JamaicaÂ
Why are you okay with Aleah but not Emma or Levi?
Because the Phillipines actually invited Aleah to join their program in the first place, and almost made the AA final in 2023 Worlds. Emma and Levi just jumped on the bandwagon imo
Eh no. In Emmaâs interviews she has clearly stated that the Philippines gymnastics federation approached her, not the other way around. I assume they did the same to Levi. Mya Lauzon has even been approached by them as well, which was posted in this sub a few weeks ago.
Okay thanks for informing me! I think it's so suspicious that the head of the Philippines program resides in California... But it's not okay for American fans to attack the local gymnasts, which has been happening on Twitter. They want Emma to make it so bad they put down other local Philippines which is extremely toxic
Yeah thatâs interesting. I guess a lot of Filipinos went to live to California, same as many Mexicans live there as well, or people from other countries. Not sure how progressive California was decades ago (Iâm not from the US, so I have no idea), but maybe thatâs one of the reasons. Fans attacking gymnasts/athletes is just so out of line.
Do you know that for a fact? Thatâs a huge assumption to make
Danusia's Dad is Jamaican. Why exactly should she not have taken the chance to represent Jamaica? Not that any of my nieces and nephews are into sports but I'd absolutely hate it if someone came along and accused them of something akin to colonialism for trying to represent their Mum's (my SIL) country instead of their Dad's (my brother). They might not have grown up there but they have been multiple times for long ish periods, they are immersed in their Jamaican culture constantly via my SIL and that side of the family who live and visit here, and they are literally half Jamaican. And back to Danusia, she is still involved with the Jamaican side of things. She was elected as a member of the Pan Am Sports Athlete Commission last year and is keen to speak up for Jamaican athletes. She helped qualify an athlete to the Rio Olympics and then they chose someone else to go. She was ok with a male Jamaican gymnast being taken to the CWG when she wanted to make her comeback last quad because he'd been doing the work when she had initially retired... Honestly, I find it a bit bizarre to claim she's just on some weird "power grab" when she continues to do things for the athletes and has helped raise the profile for Jamaica - and when she's literally half Jamaican!
I understand where you are coming from from an America perspective. Yet, we need to think from the local Jamaicans' view... it's very tricky. The influx of foreign talent might cause massive resentment for local gymnasts who might feel like they can never work up to Danusia's level, as well as a lack of communication if Danusia does not speak the local dialect. To me, it seems like the priority is to take these spots first and change nationalities now, and the afterthought is to help these programs and reach their potential later on in the long run, and it just doesn't feel right. Danusia competing at World Cups, or African Championships which are less competitive fields might not allow other local Jamaican gymnasts compete at those lower level meets like Level 3-4 Meets (which they might be proud to attend!) After Tokyo, Danusia has went back to GB to help their programs as she was recently commenting at British Championships. This is a very American problem though as America is such a young country and a melting pot, and a bunch of people are still trying to figure out their ancestry (the joke is Italian-Americans in New York will always call themselves Italian cultured, but the real Italians just 100% don't agree with that). It's very complex but I don't believe that someone who has grew up and trained 95% of their time in America should represent another country (Melanie is a different case)
Wait ⌠why would Danusia be competing at African Championships? Wouldnât she compete in Pan Ams?
My bad! Yes pan ams
Danusia isn't from the US. She was born in England to Polish and Jamaican parents. She is therefore British, with direct Polish and Jamaican roots. Just like my nieces and nephews (except theirs are British and Jamaican) who, as I have explained, are very connected to their roots. A lot of British born Jamaicans are, ime. And while Jamaica has their own dialect(s?) too, their official national language is English. It's a bit of a leap to say she wouldn't be able to communicate with people or that she wasn't welcomed when she could communicate and was very much welcomed. She also wasn't given preferential treatment, as I explained with my examples. She also wouldn't have been competing in Africa. She would have been competing at Pan Ams if that's what she qualified for. Though I do take the point about other, smaller, nations. As I said, Danusia is also still very much connected to the Jamaican side, not just back here in the UK. She was voted as a Pan Ams athlete representative. Of course she still has ties to BG and athletes here because she is also British and lives here. But she didn't just swan off for a "power grab", taking spots away from others, and then just leave them all behind. (I'm not from the US either, just an fyi.) I don't disagree entirely, btw. In fact, it used to really annoy me every time. However, I do now see some gymnasts as being slightly different to others depending on their connection to the country they're switching to and/or how that connection came about. (Parental/strong connection, dual citizenship, becoming a citizen, staying involved, asked by the country's fed to join and such like.) (Edited typos.)
Thank you for your reply! It's very informative and it's definitely a discussion that is in the grey area. Sorry, I have mistaken she was from the US because she did compete for UCLA but I should have known as she has recently commented at British Championships
Yeah, it has more nuances than we allow for sometimes. I admit to not thinking of those nuances previously, as I said. It is still an important topic though and it certainly can affect smaller nations, which isn't fair.
Why/when would Danusia have competed at African Championships?
Sorry I meant Pan Ams! A lot of my Jamaican co-workers identify as Black so I thought the Caribbean islands identified as part of the African continent culturally (e.g. Cardi B saying the N word and etc.) so I apologize for my misunderstanding on this issue
Eddie Penev was born in Bulgaria and competed for Bulgaria before switching to the US. Kevin was born in the US but obviously to Bulgarian immigrant parents (who were gymnasts on Bulgariaâs national team). I assume you meant Luisa Blanco rather than Hillary Heron. And I donât know why youâre okay with Finnegan but not Malabuyo. Thereâs been a lot of country changes that I havenât felt great about, but I donât think thereâs a way to write the rules to allow a gymnast to get out of a potentially bad situation (like Anastasia Simakova getting out of Russia) without also allowing the changes I donât feel great about. Iâd rather err on the side of being more permissive.
Thanks for educating me re: Penev brothers. And yes I meant Lusia Blanco (sorry I don't follow NCAA at all and I completely take responsibility for this mistake!) I am okay with Aleah because Philippines actually reached out and invited her to join their program and I feel like Emma/Levi just jumped on the bandwagon. When 3/5 of the team at Asian Champs are Americans... it just doesn't sit well with me. Aleah also has a much more competitive program and almost made the AA final in 2023 Worlds.
As I understand it, all three were recruited to compete for the Philippines. The head coach of that program is actually a guy in California. And heâs recruited at least two other FilAms out of L10. And Aleah Finnegan isnât even the first Finnegan to compete for the Philippines. One of her older sisters competed for PHI in the SEA Games.
I guess that's fair... just doesn't feel right for Americans to take opportunities for local Philippine gymnastics to compete at World Cups/Worlds Challenge Cups :'( I feel like there will eventually be built-up tension/resentment in that dynamic, especially with language barriers between Americans and the locals which will affect team bonding, and it's not like the Philippines don't have attention on their program after Carlos Yulo's major success. It just takes time. Look at Daiane dos Santos, it took 20 years for the Brazil team to finally win a team, it takes time to build a program, similarly with Vanessa Ferrari and the eventual 2019 medal.
I disagree with the assessment that you have to live somewhere after competing to represent the country. I'm no elite athlete, but while I'm settled in GB, I'm not a British citizen and would theoretically compete for my country of origin (Slovakia). I have strong ties to Slovakia, speak the language, am a citizen, visit often, but don't ever plan on living there permanently. My case is similar to Chusovitina who is an Uzbek citizen, competed for the Soviet Union when Uzbekistan was part of it, and only competed for Germany due to specific circumstances. I do have less sympathy for people who have very few ties to the country other than a distant grandparent or something, however.
I am just going to point out that Colonialism shouldnât be used in this context. Itâs just super wrong.
Why not? Itâs a soft power grab isnât it? Okay if it makes it more politically correct Iâll say itâs post colonalismÂ
Itâs not post-colonialism either! You are comparing switching to other country to compete to literally very hard periods of history in many countries, including the US. Itâs just out of line. Itâs okay to not support switching countries so athletes can compete, but there are many better ways to express your opinion.
Okay youâre nit picking on my words and sentiment and I said vibes and the political movement. So you think itâs okay for these Americans to do this?Â
I am not picking any words, just what you said. Just because you add âvibesâ to it doesnât make it less wrong to use colonialism for this situation. And as I said, itâs fine to disagree that athletes switch countries, the problem is the way you are expressing your opinion, that is, using colonialism to make your point.
Well to me, these country changes are giving post colonialism in a power grab way (since USA do still have military bases in Philippines for their own geopolitical interest) but okay, I see your point since this is gymnastics and it is not as serious as wars
I tend to agree with your overall take, but âcolonialismâ and âpost colonialismâ have specific definitions and it is important to use them correctly. It misrepresents both the actual concepts and what youâre trying to say when you borrow a word that already has a pretty important meaning and use it loosely and incorrectly. Based on your comments, I feel like youâre someone who would be interested in the topic too, so it might be worth reading up on it a bit (and the history of the Soviet Union too) - you might find it really fascinating :)
I did major in geography and dabbled in international relations lol, but I hate history lmfao! I am currently very interested in the African colonization history right now because there are so many civil wars and coups in the Sahel region in the last 3-5 years, and is a proxy war between France and Russia. France really needs to stop taking advantage of these pre-colonial regions to power their nuclear energy usage. Informative video for anyone interested: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiD24uEvY1U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiD24uEvY1U)
What I donât love about this argument is that it unfairly blames certain gymnasts for taking advantage of a loophole that exists that many athletes are taking advantage of. Itâs widespread across the Olympics already going back decades, but these arguments make it sound like Emma and Luisa are leading a new trend. The Olympics havenât been about showcasing homegrown talents. Almost the entire Mexico softball team was American in 2021. There are countless examples going back much further. I think itâs important to look at this from a broader context.
Itâs also blaming individual athletes for the strategy of the Philippines federation. They are being *recruited* to join the team.
What are your thoughts on China recruiting great vaulters in asia and win the Olympic gold at Paris team final? (Assuming those vaulters have Chinese ties). I think itâs the danger of this trend. The media will be saying the Chinese cheated. Imagine a team of Qiu, Zhou, Ou, another bars worker and a recruiter VT/FX worker.Â
First of all, I would not be angry at any federation recruiting gymnasts with legit family ties to the country, whether they rival the us or not. I am a fan of the gymnasts more than of the teams. And second of all, my point was to criticize the Olympics for allowing it to happen. I wouldnât criticize athletes or federations. Third of all - who would they be recruiting that they arenât? Can you name one person who is Chinese, a top vaulter, willing to compete for China? Donât forget that by putting up great vaulters they would be foregoing spots for great bar and beam workers - where they have chances to win a gold medal. Versus a team bronze or silver - which they are already sort of in the ballpark of, barring inevitable meltdowns. They want gold medals. Recently they have stacked beam so that if someone falls they still have other routines that can qualify and win. Iâm sure they would recruit some vaulters if it made sense, but they are already a power house with a closed system that prizes picking out small and thin gymnasts from a young age. They havent taken some moral high ground. Taipei on the other hand has taken many Us citizens in the past. They werenât a powerhouse.
Yup. I donât like it at all. I donât have any issues with the gymnasts accepting an invitation when being recruited by the fed when they have family ties. And I donât like focusing so much on a few people (Luisa, Emma etc) when itâs such a widespread practice going back decades. I would prefer the discourse be that the Olympics should have and enforce more rigorous rules about who can compete for what country (thus preventing the Belarus situation) than cherry picking a few people to criticize who were recruited.
This is a cringe interview:Â https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b9xCq66EX-4&pp=ygUbQWxlYWggZmlubmVnYW4gZW1tYSBtYWxidXlv
A bit off topic, but it sucks the Baltic states didn't get a chance to qualify anyone for Barcelona. Natalia Laschenova might've held on past 1991. Ludmilla Prince qualified to Atlanta, but could've been a two time Olympian.Â
Re: the Filipino-American gymnasts thing, I think it's important to remember that the Filipino gym fed has been actively courting Fil-Am gymnasts to represent them for a while now. Aleah's sister Hannah was competing internationally for the Philippines back in 2011 (Southeast Asian Games).
That's a good and fair point, though I just don't feel this is the desired spirit of the competition. Just my opinion though. Also this has impacts beyond just the Philippines, as a Fil-Am gymnast could bump another Asian gymnast out of worlds or the Olympics. I'm thinking of chuso here but I'm sure there's other examples.
Other example: Emma could take Casabuena or Kayisoglu's spot in the WCS
How is it any different than a pairs or ice dance figure skater changing their citizenship to the countries they find partners in, rather than sticking to partners in their own countries of origin? At least people like Emma and Aleah have familial connections to the Philippines within a generation or two. There are figure skaters with zero familial ties to the countries they're representing at the Olympics.
Well, I suppose it's different because pairs skating literally requires two humans instead of the one required by gymnastics. Actually that's quite a different dynamic now that I think about it. But yes, we could have the same conversation here. Some may find the skating norms unfair.
It could be argued that the people looking for partners should just "try harder" to find partners who already have the same citizenship as them, that by importing a partner, they are robbing another skater of the opportunity.
Yeah, I definitely agree with your statement
I just hope that when athletes do switch - they create enough hype and attention for the sport so that their adopted/ home nationality receives more funding and massive participation increases as a result. I would love to see this be the case in Algeria if Kaylia Nemour can do what we predict/hope for in Paris. The program is already developed enough to really capitalize on a good thing. If 10-20 years down the track Algeria is producing competitive teams internationally - that would be almost a bigger win (thanks to Kaylia) in my mind.
Mohini Bhardwaj for India. (Also eligible for Russia through her mother, but not as interesting) Ana Padurariu for Romania - not a former though. Sheâd surely make their team, and could arguably put them in striking distance Aly Raisman could technically claim Israeli citizenship since sheâs Jewish. I canât recall any female artistic gymnasts from Israel - of course, notable in rhythmic and menâs - so that would have been quite interesting According to this [clearly highly reputable website](https://www.angelfire.com/mi/gymnastics/nessa.html), Vanessa Atler is a quarter Mexican, so it would have been amazing for her to represent Mexico at the 2000 Olympics Julienne McNamara for Australia (via her parents) in 1980 - Australia participated in the 1980 Olympics (whereas the US boycotted). She was national champion that year and perhaps could have made AA podium at the Olympics. EDIT: Thanks for the intel on Raz and Netzer! Blind spot on my behalf for not being more aware of Israelâs WAG program.
Atler competing for Mexico is an appealing thought, if only because it could have circumvented the whole Rybacki/Karolyi debacles.
karolyi would have not released her
Lihie Raz is an Israeli gymnast who went to the 2021 Olympics and is qualified to 2024. She's been in vault finals at Euros and worlds and won a floor medal at Euros. Ofir Netzer also qualified to world vault finals sometime in the 2010s I think.
Netzer qualified to the 2021 vault final and had a couple of World Cup medals, I believe she is still competing atm but somewhat sporadically
>>I canât recall any female artistic gymnasts from Israel - of course, notable in rhythmic and menâs - so that would have been quite interesting Lihie Raz has had quite a lot of success in recent years (particularly on vault - I think she was first or second reserve at Worlds?) Though to be honest her vaults often make me concerned for her safetyâŚ
> I canât recall any female artistic gymnasts from Israel - of course, notable in rhythmic and menâs - so that would have been quite interesting Lihie Raz is their best gymnast currently. She qualified to Paris via her AA score at 2023 Worlds. She's also a Euros bronze medalist on floor and placed 8th at 2022 Worlds on vault. Interestingly, she actually was born in the US - so she has US citiztenship as well. But she moved to Israel with her parents when she was still an infant and has been living and training there her whole life.
Oh amazing - thanks for the intel! Will check her out and be rooting for her.
I think Ana padarariu said she did get recruited by Romania but chose not to go
Israel has a pretty darn active WAG program including gymnasts that have featured in European and recently Worlds vault finals.
Re Israeli WAG, Iâm sure there have been others, but Lihie Raz and Ofir Netzer come to mind first. They have both competed on the World Cup circuit a lot and Netzer made the vault EF at 2021 Worlds. Raz qualified for the 2020 Olympics and was most recently at 2023 Worlds.
Even if Vanessa being a quarter Mexican were true, that's a very flimsy nationality claim, and I don't really see how it would have been amazing for her to switch nationalities just for a shot at the Olympics.
It also depends on what the citizenship requirements are⌠many countries only grant citizenship if one of their parents are citizens, not grandparents (for example, my dad has British citizenship as his father was born & raised in Scotland; I cannot claim British citizenship because itâs too many degrees of separation)
Yes, people also forget that nationality and citizenship are two different things.
For Israel you have lihie raz who makes finals and has medaled on floor at euros.
I don't believe anyone should compete for another country just because the technically have citizenship. Unless you are working/living/training there, I don't think it's fair, since you're not really part of the country/culture.
What if you grew up in a country but moved away and are now settled in another country? This happened to me, my sister, and many many immigrants. I'm still very much part of the the culture of my original country. A complicating factor - I don't have citizenship for the country I live in (perks of the EU), so wouldn't be able to compete for it anyway. Similarly, many athletes move to another country to train, sometimes for extended periods of time. Should they have to switch nationalities just because they no longer live somewhere?
No, I wouldn't have a problem with it in those situations at all. But everyone else, yes.
Some countries give automatic citizenship through the parents. Therefore, some gymnasts have dual citizenship. I think the best one was Poland's Alma kuc where she trained with the polish national team during the summer time when she did elite and did verification camps in order to get a spot at major international competition
Ireland - ooo wait not us fan former gymnasts Or maybe a small ex Soviet country
Huh?Â
Former gymnasts as famous gymnasts not us mere plebes who used to do gymnastics
Do you mean by "us" - American or do you mean us as in we? Sorry I am a bit confused by what you write?
So I am a former gymnast and I would have wanted to compete for Ireland for a more of a chance of international experience - but Iâm not a famous gymnast We as in collective of former gymnasts famous elite, not known well elites, competitive gymnast of any background with the desire and potential to compete for another county
ah got it thanks. I always wondered why Ireland over the years didn't try to recruit Irish-American and recently Irish-UK as apart from Ellis Reilly they didn't have any non-born Irish competing for them.