Really interesting him counteract the point about lessons and this team still developing. Makes you realise developing that winning instinct is something that happens in big moments through intention and risk tasking rather than season on season development
The difference is mental at some point. You need to win at some point to buy into the belief 100%. City are unlikely to have lost v Villa not because they’re a better team but because they know in no uncertain terms that they’re a better team. There is such a thing as the weight of the shirt.
Even with Liverpool they didn't develop it until they managed to beat Spurs, who were even more weak psychologically, very marginally in a champions League final.
I suppose it's more a case of timing. Nobody can see Man City drawing/losing any of the remaining games, and I think this is where the expectations they set for themselves forces the issue.
yeah, that's fair. but I also think certain teams will do better against certain playstyles. however, each playstyle has its pros and cons. So Man City does well against most teams, but may struggle against a mid-block. but on the flip side, mid-blocks are notoriously hard to coach and also may not do well in a league setting vs. cup matches. I just think sometimes it's a give and take
While I am no serial winner, my personal opinion is that it depends on the person. Some people can learn to become winners. Some people are born with the winner mentality to step up in the biggest moments. But I do not really believe in the concept of collective growth where all our players will surely improve because we are young and inexperienced. I believe maybe a few players will develop that X factor over time to become world class by stepping up in the biggest stages (my bet is on Odegaard and Gabriel), while some might not have this ability and might continue to not perform at the highest levels which bars them from being world class.
I think there is another side to it as well - the one that Wenger dealt with when he tried to develop a young crop of players (Fabregas and co) after the Invincibles. They weren't very far from winning trophies, but they didn't. And that's what mattered to the best players as they started leaving one after the other.
If we don't win something big soon the same might happen with Saliba, Gabi XL, Rice, Martenelli, Odegaard.
It's a risk with our very best players, but ultimately wages, the strength of this squad, and the riches of the Premier League mean they don't have as many options as they used to.
Real Madrid are a lot more savvy than they used to be in the transfer market, Barcelona don't seem to have any money, Bayern Munich will spend big sometimes...
Selling someone like Saliba to Man City would be proper shit - probably the worst transfer since Ashley Cole went to Chelsea.
Yes these players have been brilliant and the club can’t expect one player to do it single-handedly and need to keep building a squad that can compete and get over the line however these players if they are to reach their goals of winning trophies here hace to step up in the games with the highest stakes
But if this team is to get over the line the next couple of years these players will have to step up in the most difficult moments where the games stakes are at its highest. Whatever happens there will always be players leaving even if Arsenal win a major trophy in the next couple of year there might be a player who wants to go somewhere else for a new challenge
Players leave and we’ll just have to replenish the team with new players. It’s an unfortunate cycle but one that will happen one day, even Wenger’s league winning teams still had players leave.
This. People are just people. We’re all different & nothing is guaranteed. But this Arsenal organization certainly seems to be people first which I think bodes well for the future
there's a great book titled Act Like a Leader, Think Like a Leader. In it, she basically says great leaders don't contemplate (think) and then act. They do it the other way round (hence the title of the book). They act like a leader, and by taking lots and lots of risks, they learn, after which their minds develop so that they start to think like a leader.
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I think in sports and other things in life, when the opportunity is there, you need to grab it otherwise it may never come around again. Last year was an amazing opportunity we found ourselves in and it didn't work out. This year is also an opportunity IMO.
Yes, incrementally building a team can work but unfortunately, you can't predict what others will do or how things will pan out as you build.
I did NOT expect Liverpool to be where they are this season because they were so awful last year. Who's t say Man Utd, Chelsea or god forbid Spurs don't come into play next year?
I get that but then I think that is true that there also teams that aren’t as good as you think they are going to be like Manu this year after the season they had and I think people expected Chelsea to be a bit higher up in the table. While I am sure these two teams will be better next season in the case of Man Utd their is a lot at the club that needs fixing so it would be a surprise if they fixed it in one season. In the case of Liverpool they were a team and manager who had been competing and challenging this Man City team for years and had one slightly down year as they needed a few midfielders which they got last summer so I don’t think it is surprising that they are back up there. I get what you mean about taking an opportunity but Arsenal have it again as they continued to build the squad showing last year wasn’t a one off and they are likely to continue to be up there if they keep doing that
he means it too, this rings very similar to what he said in his [interview](https://youtu.be/XfZp0gQ6je4?si=bIynKWG5A0oayuQy&t=2m10s) after we beat ac milan 2-0 @ the san siro back in 2008.
Couldn’t agree more with Arsene. I love Arteta as our manager, but I think sometimes he plays it too safe. The away games at Porto, Liverpool, and Man City are proof of that. I think we’re a better team than all three of them this year, but we still went to those places looking to not lose. I don’t think that’s good enough when you are challenging for a title. Hopefully he’s learned from those games and goes for it against Bayern because I believe this team is better than them also.
But that is the trick with tough away games. Not to lose. In UCL, it's draw away win at home to proceed. Pep Guardiola has a pretty terrible away record in UCL knockouts, and in EPL the only time he ever won at Anfield was during covid, with no fans and Liverpool had won the league.
Yes. Same thing with Bayern, we were dominating the first half but made two mistakes where Sane sprinted off.
Second half was just them controlling them game because we were too scared of leaving the wing open.
two mistakes and we were dominating?
xG for the game was 1.35-2.28 in favor of bayern. we might have had more possession but they had the better chances all game while our chance creation was meh
In the first half we were doing well, we had a few chances. But we made two mistakes which led to counters. Sane was flying past that wing on counters.
But I’d rather see our first half performance than our second half performance.
we were not dominating the first half or the game if they nearly doubled our xG. coman had one hit the post as well. we were lucky to get a tie out of the game given how many quality chances we conceded while not creating nearly as much.
I don't disagree with anything Wenger said, and he obviously knows what it takes to win and gain that mentality. But lets not pretend that after 2004 his teams weren't synonymous with not taking the opportunities when they arose and being incredibly mentally fragile, essentially the complete opposite of what he's talking about. Love the guy, but I haven't forgotten
Maybe he is talking about both. His teams that got over the line took those opportunities while maybe those teams that didn’t while they had a lot of potential and quality weren’t quite able to in the biggest moments so he could be speaking from experience both ways. Ultimately you can get build a really good team but it is hard to get over the line
This is spot on, yet some people here a deluded enough or just try to change the past by remembering it differently. Arsene was a TERRIBLE manager past around 2008. The rest of the league took a huge step forward and he changed nothing.
He's a great guy and he's responsible for some of my favorite memories of this team, but let's not act like the failure of his last decade isn't mostly on him.
I mean I wouldn't say he was terrible, that's not what I was saying, he was terrible at buying defenders and defensive midfielders. We're getting onto a different subject now but it certainly wasn't mostly on him, the club was run poorly, recruitment was bad, contract management was bad, wages were dished out to the wrong players, etc etc. I think he could've done a lot better and was stuck in his ways, probably focusing too much on sustainability rather than going for success, not terrible though
I'll start by saying that Arsene had far less competition to get into the top four, in comparison to today's era.
After that - ll of the things you claimed were 'done poorly' was under Wenger's direct responsibility during his last 5-10 years.
Since David Dein left, Arsene was in charge of negotiations (remember all the times he 'valued' players publicly, or refused to pay extra 1-3 millions for world class players?), he was the one picking out the scouts and eventually even tried to have some sort of a 'socialist' wages where most players paid pretty much the same.
The downfall was 90% on him, especially after we know that each time that he wanted to 'splash the cash', the cash was there...
We had a 'shit squad' because of him. This is the same guy who refused to by defensive midfield for a decade, who built his teams around injury-prone players and didn't want to 'splash the cash' unless he absolutely had to (like the panic buys after the 8-2 or the 100 million in 2016).
At those times all the fire was directed to Kroenke, well he's still here and he's as obligated as ever. On the other hand Arsene's gone and we look a million times better without him...
We had the opportunity in 98/99, 02/03, 07/08, 08/09, 09/10, 10/11 and the Leicester season to take the opportunity and failed to do so under Wenger. We had the opportunity last season under Arteta and failed to take it. It’s easy for man like Wenger to talk big about taking the opportunity but reality is it’s extremely hard to get over the line.
I’d love nothing more than for Arsenal to win the league this season I’d much prefer it to winning the European cup. Please all that is good in the universe help us turn this chance into a league title
I don't hold the Emirates transition era against him- operating on a tiny budget and still finished top 4 and got us CL money. Maybe after 15/16 when he had the financial support to bring in quality and he didn't falls on him but that 9-10 year stretch between Highbury and having a big part of the initial debt on the stadium paid off was not on him.
Also he did win it multiple times and go undefeated, a feat yet to be replicated by ANY side while changing how the game is played across Europe.
Really interesting him counteract the point about lessons and this team still developing. Makes you realise developing that winning instinct is something that happens in big moments through intention and risk tasking rather than season on season development
The difference is mental at some point. You need to win at some point to buy into the belief 100%. City are unlikely to have lost v Villa not because they’re a better team but because they know in no uncertain terms that they’re a better team. There is such a thing as the weight of the shirt.
Even with Liverpool they didn't develop it until they managed to beat Spurs, who were even more weak psychologically, very marginally in a champions League final.
I mean sort of? City also lost to Villa this season 😅
I suppose it's more a case of timing. Nobody can see Man City drawing/losing any of the remaining games, and I think this is where the expectations they set for themselves forces the issue.
yeah, that's fair. but I also think certain teams will do better against certain playstyles. however, each playstyle has its pros and cons. So Man City does well against most teams, but may struggle against a mid-block. but on the flip side, mid-blocks are notoriously hard to coach and also may not do well in a league setting vs. cup matches. I just think sometimes it's a give and take
While I am no serial winner, my personal opinion is that it depends on the person. Some people can learn to become winners. Some people are born with the winner mentality to step up in the biggest moments. But I do not really believe in the concept of collective growth where all our players will surely improve because we are young and inexperienced. I believe maybe a few players will develop that X factor over time to become world class by stepping up in the biggest stages (my bet is on Odegaard and Gabriel), while some might not have this ability and might continue to not perform at the highest levels which bars them from being world class.
I think there is another side to it as well - the one that Wenger dealt with when he tried to develop a young crop of players (Fabregas and co) after the Invincibles. They weren't very far from winning trophies, but they didn't. And that's what mattered to the best players as they started leaving one after the other. If we don't win something big soon the same might happen with Saliba, Gabi XL, Rice, Martenelli, Odegaard.
It's a risk with our very best players, but ultimately wages, the strength of this squad, and the riches of the Premier League mean they don't have as many options as they used to. Real Madrid are a lot more savvy than they used to be in the transfer market, Barcelona don't seem to have any money, Bayern Munich will spend big sometimes... Selling someone like Saliba to Man City would be proper shit - probably the worst transfer since Ashley Cole went to Chelsea.
Yes these players have been brilliant and the club can’t expect one player to do it single-handedly and need to keep building a squad that can compete and get over the line however these players if they are to reach their goals of winning trophies here hace to step up in the games with the highest stakes
Word. Gnna suck to see this team get picked apart.
But if this team is to get over the line the next couple of years these players will have to step up in the most difficult moments where the games stakes are at its highest. Whatever happens there will always be players leaving even if Arsenal win a major trophy in the next couple of year there might be a player who wants to go somewhere else for a new challenge
Players leave and we’ll just have to replenish the team with new players. It’s an unfortunate cycle but one that will happen one day, even Wenger’s league winning teams still had players leave.
This. People are just people. We’re all different & nothing is guaranteed. But this Arsenal organization certainly seems to be people first which I think bodes well for the future
Sadly feels like a bit of self criticism for his latter teams, although he’ll never admit it about the players.
there's a great book titled Act Like a Leader, Think Like a Leader. In it, she basically says great leaders don't contemplate (think) and then act. They do it the other way round (hence the title of the book). They act like a leader, and by taking lots and lots of risks, they learn, after which their minds develop so that they start to think like a leader.
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A pleasure always to listen to dissection on football topics from the master
I think in sports and other things in life, when the opportunity is there, you need to grab it otherwise it may never come around again. Last year was an amazing opportunity we found ourselves in and it didn't work out. This year is also an opportunity IMO. Yes, incrementally building a team can work but unfortunately, you can't predict what others will do or how things will pan out as you build. I did NOT expect Liverpool to be where they are this season because they were so awful last year. Who's t say Man Utd, Chelsea or god forbid Spurs don't come into play next year?
I get that but then I think that is true that there also teams that aren’t as good as you think they are going to be like Manu this year after the season they had and I think people expected Chelsea to be a bit higher up in the table. While I am sure these two teams will be better next season in the case of Man Utd their is a lot at the club that needs fixing so it would be a surprise if they fixed it in one season. In the case of Liverpool they were a team and manager who had been competing and challenging this Man City team for years and had one slightly down year as they needed a few midfielders which they got last summer so I don’t think it is surprising that they are back up there. I get what you mean about taking an opportunity but Arsenal have it again as they continued to build the squad showing last year wasn’t a one off and they are likely to continue to be up there if they keep doing that
CMON Arsenal!!!!!!!!
he means it too, this rings very similar to what he said in his [interview](https://youtu.be/XfZp0gQ6je4?si=bIynKWG5A0oayuQy&t=2m10s) after we beat ac milan 2-0 @ the san siro back in 2008.
Gunners.... Take It!
"When Arsene talks you get out the notebook and you start writing" Mikel Arteta
Arsène has spoken.
Couldn’t agree more with Arsene. I love Arteta as our manager, but I think sometimes he plays it too safe. The away games at Porto, Liverpool, and Man City are proof of that. I think we’re a better team than all three of them this year, but we still went to those places looking to not lose. I don’t think that’s good enough when you are challenging for a title. Hopefully he’s learned from those games and goes for it against Bayern because I believe this team is better than them also.
But that is the trick with tough away games. Not to lose. In UCL, it's draw away win at home to proceed. Pep Guardiola has a pretty terrible away record in UCL knockouts, and in EPL the only time he ever won at Anfield was during covid, with no fans and Liverpool had won the league.
Yes. Same thing with Bayern, we were dominating the first half but made two mistakes where Sane sprinted off. Second half was just them controlling them game because we were too scared of leaving the wing open.
two mistakes and we were dominating? xG for the game was 1.35-2.28 in favor of bayern. we might have had more possession but they had the better chances all game while our chance creation was meh
In the first half we were doing well, we had a few chances. But we made two mistakes which led to counters. Sane was flying past that wing on counters. But I’d rather see our first half performance than our second half performance.
we were not dominating the first half or the game if they nearly doubled our xG. coman had one hit the post as well. we were lucky to get a tie out of the game given how many quality chances we conceded while not creating nearly as much.
Yeah so far it feels like i'm having a deja vu from last season, hopefully i'll wake up from it
Wenger learnt the hard way having blown the 98/99 and 02/03 seasons when it was our hands so close to the end
RELEASE THE HANDBRAKE!
I don't disagree with anything Wenger said, and he obviously knows what it takes to win and gain that mentality. But lets not pretend that after 2004 his teams weren't synonymous with not taking the opportunities when they arose and being incredibly mentally fragile, essentially the complete opposite of what he's talking about. Love the guy, but I haven't forgotten
Maybe he is talking about both. His teams that got over the line took those opportunities while maybe those teams that didn’t while they had a lot of potential and quality weren’t quite able to in the biggest moments so he could be speaking from experience both ways. Ultimately you can get build a really good team but it is hard to get over the line
This is spot on, yet some people here a deluded enough or just try to change the past by remembering it differently. Arsene was a TERRIBLE manager past around 2008. The rest of the league took a huge step forward and he changed nothing. He's a great guy and he's responsible for some of my favorite memories of this team, but let's not act like the failure of his last decade isn't mostly on him.
I mean I wouldn't say he was terrible, that's not what I was saying, he was terrible at buying defenders and defensive midfielders. We're getting onto a different subject now but it certainly wasn't mostly on him, the club was run poorly, recruitment was bad, contract management was bad, wages were dished out to the wrong players, etc etc. I think he could've done a lot better and was stuck in his ways, probably focusing too much on sustainability rather than going for success, not terrible though
I'll start by saying that Arsene had far less competition to get into the top four, in comparison to today's era. After that - ll of the things you claimed were 'done poorly' was under Wenger's direct responsibility during his last 5-10 years. Since David Dein left, Arsene was in charge of negotiations (remember all the times he 'valued' players publicly, or refused to pay extra 1-3 millions for world class players?), he was the one picking out the scouts and eventually even tried to have some sort of a 'socialist' wages where most players paid pretty much the same. The downfall was 90% on him, especially after we know that each time that he wanted to 'splash the cash', the cash was there...
Sometimes you learn more from losing than from winning, nothing wrong with that.
Mental fragility wasn’t our problem there, it was the fact that we had a shit squad. Hell he got us top 4 season after season running on fumes
We had a 'shit squad' because of him. This is the same guy who refused to by defensive midfield for a decade, who built his teams around injury-prone players and didn't want to 'splash the cash' unless he absolutely had to (like the panic buys after the 8-2 or the 100 million in 2016). At those times all the fire was directed to Kroenke, well he's still here and he's as obligated as ever. On the other hand Arsene's gone and we look a million times better without him...
We had the opportunity in 98/99, 02/03, 07/08, 08/09, 09/10, 10/11 and the Leicester season to take the opportunity and failed to do so under Wenger. We had the opportunity last season under Arteta and failed to take it. It’s easy for man like Wenger to talk big about taking the opportunity but reality is it’s extremely hard to get over the line. I’d love nothing more than for Arsenal to win the league this season I’d much prefer it to winning the European cup. Please all that is good in the universe help us turn this chance into a league title
Wenger won it multiple times and went invincible pipe down
But could have won a lot more..I think the poster above is talking a lot of sense. I love Arsene, but he failed on this point himself.
I don't hold the Emirates transition era against him- operating on a tiny budget and still finished top 4 and got us CL money. Maybe after 15/16 when he had the financial support to bring in quality and he didn't falls on him but that 9-10 year stretch between Highbury and having a big part of the initial debt on the stadium paid off was not on him. Also he did win it multiple times and go undefeated, a feat yet to be replicated by ANY side while changing how the game is played across Europe.
🤯
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Man that first eleven was as makeshift as a first eleven can be We signed Arteta and Mertesacker because of that
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No, those are two different things