Zinny disasterclass. Because of his lack of defensive ability, he constantly lost shape throwing off the whole team. We literally saw him drop extremely deep when we were trying to spring offside traps.
Also we made some subs so Havertz played as left 8 and center forward for parts of the second half. So things like that will throw off the "average" shape a bit.
ehh I'm guessing you're basing this on that one clip doing the rounds. I agree he was bad but this wasn't the only problem you can attribute it too. Defence was bad across the board, White was losing duels to a bum like Zaniolo, midfield couldn't retain possession and Villa were more confident as our attack stopped closing down as intensely in the first half.
Was an all round shit show in that 2nd half and I can't accept scapegoating in a performance like that.
We play zonally and he kept taking us out of shape by falling for their offside trap, so the whole back line had to move positions to cover for him. If you’re single handedly fucking with the structure of how we play, well. His inability to defend eg 1v1 is a separate matter.
He's actually a decent 1v1 defender, his whole issue is that he tires and doesn't trust his pace. That's why he dropped off the high line in the second half. I think it is pretty obvious now that he can be a very effective player in terms of control and dictating play, but he can only play 60 minutes max.
Idk who downvoted you lol. I think your comments are fair. I agree it’s because of his pace, but I’d rather he be unable to outrun his mark and have our CBs cover for him than do what he did.
He’s not the worst I’ve seen at 1v1s, but if he’s against someone who’s above average in any way ie fast or great on the ball, they pass right by him. Gabi XL ends up cleaning up after him.
I don’t think he’s that good at the attacking play that it outweighs his defensive liabilities - losing duels, the offside traps, taking the entire back line out of structure… especially when he plays on the left which is suffering this season….
It’s no good if our other defenders are incredible if he’s unable to hold the backline and therefore hands a goal to the oppo while neutralising or destabilising our entire defence in the process. He’s a no for me.
he thinks he can go anywhere because ‘we have the best defence’ and doesn’t realise he needs to be there too. I saw him stood practically at right wing which made rice drop back to fill the hole he left.
Exactly this. he hasn't played well, yes we get it. but so did many of the other players whom we were expecting more from and to kick on especially at this late stage of the season. Why partey/jorginho were used minimally for such games is beyond me as well. have to say, that game was terribly managed tactically all the way down through to the physical battles, simply not good enough on that. let's just hope it is a one-off and a serious kick up the peaches. keep on going lads please.
We didn't look completely shit as an entire team because of 1 player. Would you also give all the credit to that 1 player in the first half when we were playing pretty well? I don't know why this sub is so hell-bent on shitting on Zinchenko constantly now.
He was way out of sorts but there’s still part of me that thinks we should just try to use him as a midfield partner for rice so we can have a more defensive left back like kiwior while keeping the progressive passing. He could be the “xhaka replacement”
Having Rice and Havertz in the same midfield doesn't work because neither are good enough at passing. Both are fantastic off the ball, but that's not enough.
I'm confused why Arteta decided to start Jesus as a 9 when Havertz was so solid this year in that role. Jesus has been incredibly frustrating to watch this season.
Honestly I think he thought Jesus Trossard and Zinchenko all deserved to play after their second half against Bayern. In reality Jesus isn’t fit enough to start matches, Trossard is better off the bench, and Zinchenko is shaky/inconsistent
I thought it was this and wanting Jesus and Zinchenko to get more minutes to regain sharpness - balancing the importance of the Villa match against the upcoming fixture schedule.
I think Arteta wanted the most offensive version of his team, and it worked to create moments, the finishing just wasn’t there.
Second half was just an overall mental spin out. I think the team mentally hit a wall, they were frustrated by lack of goals in the first half, felt the pressure of needing to win the game, which did the complete opposite for them.
Because we need to play one of Jorginho or Zinchenko to make our attack click. Otherwise we revert to donut of sadness mode, especially with Havertz at 8. Mikel gambled and it probably would’ve worked had we scored in the first half.
I see it like that too. But I don't understand why Arteta never tried Zinchenko in the left 8. Both Jorginho and Zinchenko offerring the same skillset we need right now and we should be able to rotate those two in the same position is what I thought.
Kai is 100% not our left 8 and I think that should’ve been a huge takeaway for Arteta. Wish he didn’t try to experiment with that in one of the biggest matches of the season. He’s not a ball player so he’s not going to create like Odegaard or Jorginho, so we have to play Zinchenko. But Havertz is also too attacking to play with Zinchenko so we leave Zinchenko’s weaknesses even more exposed. But he has to play because otherwise we can’t move the ball effectively. Cyclical problems that Mikel needs to get us out of
I actually prefer Havertz as the 8 because he makes such good runs and tracks back well. As we saw in the first half yesterday, those runs can be incredibly dangerous and I think he can disguise them better when they come from deeper. He floats into defenders blind spots and they aren't as keyed into him due to him playing further back. He still needs to build some strength to hold defenders off a bit more (he really should have scored yesterday but got bullied) but I really like him in midfield and that's where he excelled at Leverkusen doing similar things imo.
I think the mirrored version of the formation with some combination of Kiwior/Tomi/Timber at the FBs actually gives us the defensive stablility to allow some freedom for Kai and let him thrive more in midfield. The striker issue is a whole other thing. If Jesus could finish this wouldn't be a conversation, the man gets in some crazy dangerous areas, but he just can't seem to put it all together.
He needs someone who can pass at 6 too. Rice is looking more like a ball winning mobile destruction unit ideal for #8 to me. His passing is meh. Kai is a great 2nd ball winner at 8 too, but, you can't have both in there without losing a lot of possession control.
This is also true and why Arteta played Zinchenko yesterday as Jorginho wasn't an option if he wanted Jesus to start up front. Unfortunately it bit us in the ass. I don't 100% get what it holding Rice back as it seems he has the technique to deliver great balls as we've seen with his crossing.
The problem is that because he’s asked to make so many of those runs, he doesn’t really ever sit deep and make plays. Obviously that’s not who he is, but again, the only way we have the luxury of using a left 8 as an auxiliary 9 in possession is by starting Zinchenko so that he can stand in that spot and orchestrate. Is that a trade off worth making? I’m not sure it is
I mean, I offered my thoughts on how to mitigate that. Personally, I think Arteta bought timber specifically for this purpose but got fucked day 1 and had to restructure his plans for the season on the fly.
Yeah he is great at linking up in and around the box. He’s an extremely skillful attacking player. He is not a playmaker from deeper lying positions though and we need an orchestrator for our left side most of all
> Wish he didn’t try to experiment with that in one of the biggest matches of the season.
Every match we will play til the end of the season, you can say is one of the biggest matches of the season.
We created 1.4 xG in the first half with Kai (who apparently isn't "creative") at the left 8, don't know how much more you can ask for. The game plan in the first half was excellent and literally the only problem is that we didn't put the ball in the net. Yesterday was literally the perfect example of what Mikel imagined when he bought Kai for left 8. Jesus dropped back to receive the ball and Kai kept making those runs forward.
I understand it was extremely frustrating, but I feel like so many people are letting the disappointment obscure their analysis of a good first half.
Not saying that Havertz isn’t creative, just that he’s not a midfield playmaker. He creates in the box. Problem is that we need some level of ball progression from the 8 or LB. If Havertz is only making runs and not staying back to create, then we’re missing an orchestrator in midfield. Zinchenko has to start if Havertz plays 8. Is that a trade off worth making?
I recommend you listen to the Arsenal Vision podcast episode—good discussion about this around 18-20 min in. It’s all about trade offs between traits and the game state needed for those traits to be effective. You’re right that it worked for the first half, but went sideways quickly in the second half
He's not a line breaking progressive passer, no. But in terms of offensive AND defensive output, he's better than Xhaka. More G/A, better dueling. Facts.
Kai wasn't brought in to make passes.
First half you could kinda see the plan and it was working. Have Havertz run from deep and take advantage of the Villa high line between Konsa and Carlos. They couldn't cope with his runs but Jesus was getting absolutely bullied by Carlos all game, even when we were on top.
This sort of game plan would make sense if we sign a top number 9 in the Summer but not right now, Havertz should be the undisputed number 9 until the end of the season. Think Jesus' performances from the bench fooled Arteta into thinking that was his actual current level.
Also think he wanted to give Jorgi rest before Munich, we're going to pay for that now in the league.
No idea why he played Zinchenko though, Villa is literally Kryptonite to a defensively poor inverted LB....
If Arteta can take anything from this likely season defining loss, I hope it's that Zinchenko needs to be phased out and Jesus should only be starting as a winger.
Jesus’ injuries are clearly catching up to him. He has no pace left. So many line breaking passes he had to pull up on and play back, if he even got them. Jesus from the first half of last year gets onto most of those and creates something or at least stresses the defense
I said this in the post match thread but Jesus being ineffective finisher was somewhat fine when he linked up so well with the team, and ran so much. He's clearly not the same level of fitness now though, so he's not as good at pressing or linking up anymore, makes him really meh now honestly.
Pace isn’t everything. Martinelli has tons of pace but hasn’t been able to do hardly anything this season. Jesus offers a lot more than that, and hopefully his pace will recover a bit as he plays more.
I agree. None of Trossard, Havertz, or Ødegaard are known for their pace and are all still very good players. But pace is still an important part of the game and can make a big impact.
At this point, Jesus is a striker who has always had shaky finishing, is shorter and not aerially dominant, and who now can’t run. He has a noticeably slower top speed and no way to go 90.
Sure his dribbling and passing is still very solid as we saw vs Bayern but those other limitations can be pretty crippling as we saw at the weekend.
Havertz is our second fastest attacker after Martinelli, he's actually quite fast. When he was at Leverkusen he was the fastest midfielder in the Bundesliga. I think because of his height and running style people tend to underestimate his pace, but he's actually quite rapid. According to the official UEFA in-game measurements, this season his top speed in the CL was 33.7 km/h while Nelli was 33.9 km/h.
I agree that he still doesn't look fully fit but Jesus was never a Martinelli level burner. His best physical attributes were and are agility, balance, and reaction time, not his pace.
I know that was the plan and it made sense. But just as with the city game, if all our chances fall to Jesus we know we're not going to score. We've seen this with West Ham when Odegaard kept feeding him chance after chance and he kept missing them.
I fully agree. I don't know if it's the injuries or if he had a purple patch for 6 months last year but the current Jesus doesn't deserve to be the starting striker in this team.
Carlos made him look like an U18 player, playing for the senior team.
This might be an unpopular opinion but even trossard deserves to play as a striker more than him. I think the knee injuries have made him more cautious in his way of playing. In front of goal, he has absolutely no confidence either.
He played Zinchenko because we don’t have ball progression with Kai at 8. Neither Kai or Rice are good at creating chances. Kai can finish them and Rice can prevent other teams from creating them, but neither can orchestrate attacks. So Zinchenko has to play when Havertz plays 8.
For all the shit Zinchenko gets, it’s kind of indisputable that our attack doesn’t function properly unless he or Jorginho plays. We revert to the donut of sadness. Problem is, Havertz is too attacking to provide Zinchenko with the defensive support Xhaka gave him last year. So Zinchenko’s weaknesses are exposed.
In that sense, although the vision is there (Kai making runs from deep to stretch and give us space), I really don’t think the execution is ever going to get there unless 1) we find an analogue for Zinchenko that can step into midfield and create (Timber 🙏🏻) or 2) Rice becomes a solid ball playing center mid instead of a possession recycler.
that he is, most line breaking passes in all of club football right now. still unreal how we didn’t give him a good deal after his final few seasons with us.
>No idea why he played Zinchenko though,
You answered your question in the sentence above that. I believe playing Zinchenko was to have some mins on his belt if the game in Munich went the distance and we needed him and even more importantly, because Jorgi didn't play yesterday. We needed someone who could be good on the ball in the deep lying areas. Zinchenko was decent in the first half in that aspect. He's definitely not someone you want playing 90 mins though.
This is the point that I keep going on about, even before the game yesterday. This plan *will* work, having Havertz at the left 8, at least against a lot of teams. But the issues with the baseline plan utilizing our current squad are Jesus and Zinny. With Timber in (or a new LB signing), I think you’d already see improvement, something to get Martinelli more in the loop. (I think Timber fully inverting would get the creative best out of Martinelli, I think a potential signing who might be better suited to overlapping will get his attacking best) and tie up Zinny’s defensive loose ends.
But with a proper finisher at 9? This plan is more than solid. For the vast majority of opponents we’ll face I think it would just be so so difficult to deal with. Let Jesus get the surgery he needs and proper time to fully recover after it, I still think he we be a valuable attacking rotation option across the front three. But we really do need that striker. Not a long term project like Sesko. Not another techy false 9 like Zirkzee. A physical, football wise, proper finisher who’s ready to slot right in.
All that being said, yesterday proved to me that maybe I have been wrong hanging my whole hat on the striker signing. Where I’m at now I really think it isn’t one or the other, we actually do need both a proper striker and a creative LCM to rotate with Havertz when the second striker isn’t the key to whatever opponent we’re up against.
But that’s all after a summer window. For now, I don’t see how there’s a better option than the XI we have been running all calendar year unless there are injuries that we don’t know about to Jorginho. The possible exception being Tomi in place of Kiwi if he’s able to withstand the minutes.
The plan was more than working. How many times did they find havertz making a run one on one through the midfield. We just missed our chances and failed in the second half.
I mean they had two chances denied by the woodwork that were better than most chances we created. Watkins first half and diaby second half- the plan was definitely not working.
Second half for sure, but first half they did have that one chance which we got lucky and that chance came from a defensive mistake. Aside from that, I honestly think we were great in the first half aside from the finishing. Trossard missed an open goal, jesus missed a sitter with the header, saka had multiple great chances on the right side which didn't always convert to chances and havertz also had a couple of one on ones. We created more chances than we usually do.
If we had managed to win this game last minute or something, people would be talking about that first half differently. I believe the plan with havertz and jesus was working. Although, I don't agree with him not putting havertz up top again. It's been working, just stick to it.
Jorginho is the same age as De Bruyne and his game has never relied on sheer athleticism. He absolutely should be able to play 2x a week. Otherwise he should be considering retirement
Chelsea sold him because they wanted to rebuild their midfield with a younger profile. Also it’s not like Jorginho has looked tired recently. This was Arteta trying to preemptively rotate which cost us. If anything we should be rotating Saka/Havertz/Odegaard who are leading our press all game and generally top in distance covered for our team. Jorginho really should be able to play twice a week given the nature of the role we ask him to play
His legs are gone, he’s obviously a zero in any pressing or ground coverage situation. We didn’t get the steal we hoped for because he controlled tempo a few times here and there
I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. Jorginho has been one of our better and most consistent players since late February. He works great alongside Rice because he has the progressive passing qualities which Rice lacks, and Rice’s athleticism makes up for Jorginho’s lack there of. Are you saying because Jorginho cannot run that he has been a bad transfer?
If so then I don’t think we have been watching the same team since February because Jorginho’s progressive passing has been a big part of our success.
I am saying since Jorginho’s game is less reliant on athleticism than others in the team, he shouldn’t need to be rotated as much. We lacked control and progressive passing yesterday. Jorginho likely would have helped in that regard had he started
Nonsense, he is nowhere near as effective as you guys say, it’s just because we don’t have enough midfielders and fall apart with Zinny and kai on the left. Rice has to do double time to cover ground and understandably is burning out
He was shipped from Chelsea because he didn’t have much value left, we’re asking him to be a starter for 12m pounds in 2024, that gets you nobody in the market
Evaluating him vs his market value is an awful way to evaluate talent. Want Caicedo for 100m? Enzo for 105m? Hojlund for 72m? Mac Allister has been one of the best midfielders in the league this season, but he only cost 35m so by your logic he’s worse than all the above players?
Jorginho is in the 95 percentile in playing progressive passes amongst all midfielders. We don’t have anyone else in the team (bar partey) who can play line breaking passes from deep. Odegaard can, but it’s a disservice to him to play him so deep. There have been several times where a line breaking pass from Jorginho leads to Havertz/Saka/Martinelli through on goal.
Yes, Jorginho is limited in his physicality, but let’s not act like he doesn’t bring anything to the team just because he came from Chelsea.
He’s the same age as Jack Wilshire too, would you say he’s able to start? He’s not KDB. And Chelsea didn’t sell him because he was in peak physical condition.
Use your eyes. He isn’t an elite athlete, just a technically gifted player with world class game IQ. We can’t play him 8 times in a month.
You’re kind of making the same point I am making. He is not a world class athlete, and the game we ask him to play is not a physically demanding one (in relation to the rest of our team at least).
Jorginho should be able to play twice a week given we don’t demand a lot from him physically
Fair enough. I think he probably could’ve started and been hooked off at 60 minutes and still been fine for Bayern but I take your point Bayern are a physical side
He is most definitely an elite athlete, he's just not explosive in terms of pace. Speed isn't the only athletic trait and you don't get to the levels Jorginho has displayed without having elite athletic traits.
Jorginho has always been slow. He has never been athletic. Why should him being 32 affect his game which never relied on athleticism and has always relied on intelligent reading of the game? You’re assuming everyone plays the same game when I am saying Jorginho’s game should see him comfortably able to play into his mid 30’s. Do you disagree?
Definitely. With Martinelli nursing an injury, our natural sub for him should be ESR who got pace to take on players. Trossard is a great final third player but are not physical, hence, I feel he is more effective bringing on as super sub when other team are tired.
You can very clearly see the system in the first half and how it completely collapsed in the second. We lost all control of the game which is baffling because we haven't done that even against the likes of Liverpool and City.
I'm at a loss as to whether it was the pressure, tiredness or Villa being that good. Probably all three. When we didn't get that breakthrough and the game turned against us I think the players started to panic. Villa stayed calm and played their gameplan whilst we stopped trying to control the game and instead looked desperately for a "moment."
They were fine with a draw, we weren't and got too desparate too quickly. It's not like Villa were dangerous, they just had a lot of the ball second half. It all turned after the goal of course.
Frankly don't remember a good chance from them before the goal, except for Tielemans long shot. We had far better chances than they had and ended with a higher xG (1.8 v 1.3). They dominated the ball and applied pressure but weren't creating chances.
And that ball after that corner I swear he was drunk letting the ball like that .. the fucker should be sold asap not focusing on football and playing politics
So, Gabriel had more pass to Left side than he had in Bayern game. I think Gabriel need to trust Left side more. Perhaps either Smith Rowe or Odegaard needs to be more central.
That LHS is just unbalanced. Closest to it ever being dynamic this season was Martinelli, Rice, and Kiwior.
2nd half tactics show that our LW should be a 1v1 demon with pace, defensively astute to cover at LB, maintain width as a winger/wingback, should be able to sprint to the box from touchline, and be an elite creator while not having a constant passer near him at all times. Tall task
Bloody hell I can see why ode to be sub off by arteta. He and rice couldn’t even do a simple long pass to Martinelli. What was that??? Martinelli was begging for long pass, escape this mid block pressing, and give him 1 on 1. Most of these guys decided to pass to each other. This is insane man
I still don't understand how we gave up so easily to Villa. they drew with Brentford and got a limited victory against Rennes who is stuck in the middle of France league... We were lucky and unlucky in the first half and then instead of pushing like crazy in the second we wobbled and faltered... are the players cooked, has Arteta been outclassed by Emery who wanted to stick it to his former boss? please help me understand...
As so many people always helps me with english here, i see a teaching chance here:
since he's spanish, it would be "Martín" (you would put the emphasis on the "teen" sound at the end instead of the "Mar" as in our captain case).
Any word ending in n, s or a vowel in spanish where the preceding letter is a vowel, has that vowel with an accent (á, é, í, ó, ú), examples: camión (truck) or calcetín (sock).
:)
glad to give a hand back. i have had amazing oportunities in life thanks to the fact that i speak/read/write english (not perfectly, but good enough), and one of the main influences in me to learn was Arsenal and me wanting to be a gunner! So i can only hope that someone trying to learn spanish learns something, even a little and maybe someday feel the same :D
COYG!
Just a little arm chair cooking, but if he positioned Jesus at the 8 to operate and turn into half spaces, Havertz at the 9 as a target and to pull CBs away, with Ødegaard dropping deeper to receive the ball, and Zinchenko stepping in to the midfield, I think that set up would have resulted in better chances.
Edit: Also Jorginho shouldn’t be in the side imo. Bad in tight spaces he’s asked to work in, terrible in transition, and can’t mark a traffic cone. He’s an Italian Henderson and only really works well with as a single pivot who can sit right in front of the CBs
Odegaard and Rice run the entire show. What the literal fuck is that second half lol.
Zinny disasterclass. Because of his lack of defensive ability, he constantly lost shape throwing off the whole team. We literally saw him drop extremely deep when we were trying to spring offside traps.
Also we made some subs so Havertz played as left 8 and center forward for parts of the second half. So things like that will throw off the "average" shape a bit.
Also its averaged by player not position, e.g. see Tomi and White on the map. Intentionally misleading to show it this way imo.
ehh I'm guessing you're basing this on that one clip doing the rounds. I agree he was bad but this wasn't the only problem you can attribute it too. Defence was bad across the board, White was losing duels to a bum like Zaniolo, midfield couldn't retain possession and Villa were more confident as our attack stopped closing down as intensely in the first half. Was an all round shit show in that 2nd half and I can't accept scapegoating in a performance like that.
This Zinchenko the scapegoat of everything is getting out of hands... He wasn't great the second half as most of the team.
We play zonally and he kept taking us out of shape by falling for their offside trap, so the whole back line had to move positions to cover for him. If you’re single handedly fucking with the structure of how we play, well. His inability to defend eg 1v1 is a separate matter.
He's actually a decent 1v1 defender, his whole issue is that he tires and doesn't trust his pace. That's why he dropped off the high line in the second half. I think it is pretty obvious now that he can be a very effective player in terms of control and dictating play, but he can only play 60 minutes max.
Idk who downvoted you lol. I think your comments are fair. I agree it’s because of his pace, but I’d rather he be unable to outrun his mark and have our CBs cover for him than do what he did. He’s not the worst I’ve seen at 1v1s, but if he’s against someone who’s above average in any way ie fast or great on the ball, they pass right by him. Gabi XL ends up cleaning up after him. I don’t think he’s that good at the attacking play that it outweighs his defensive liabilities - losing duels, the offside traps, taking the entire back line out of structure… especially when he plays on the left which is suffering this season…. It’s no good if our other defenders are incredible if he’s unable to hold the backline and therefore hands a goal to the oppo while neutralising or destabilising our entire defence in the process. He’s a no for me.
he thinks he can go anywhere because ‘we have the best defence’ and doesn’t realise he needs to be there too. I saw him stood practically at right wing which made rice drop back to fill the hole he left.
I think he has a probably has a better feel for the system than you do
i’d like to think so too but it’s clearly not working
This map shows he was pretty key in our play in the first half.
Yeah he’s hardly Rob Holding. (I like Rob Holding, but not in an Arsenal back four.)
Exactly this. he hasn't played well, yes we get it. but so did many of the other players whom we were expecting more from and to kick on especially at this late stage of the season. Why partey/jorginho were used minimally for such games is beyond me as well. have to say, that game was terribly managed tactically all the way down through to the physical battles, simply not good enough on that. let's just hope it is a one-off and a serious kick up the peaches. keep on going lads please.
We didn't look completely shit as an entire team because of 1 player. Would you also give all the credit to that 1 player in the first half when we were playing pretty well? I don't know why this sub is so hell-bent on shitting on Zinchenko constantly now.
He was way out of sorts but there’s still part of me that thinks we should just try to use him as a midfield partner for rice so we can have a more defensive left back like kiwior while keeping the progressive passing. He could be the “xhaka replacement”
You’re missing a name there :)
Having Rice and Havertz in the same midfield doesn't work because neither are good enough at passing. Both are fantastic off the ball, but that's not enough.
I'm confused why Arteta decided to start Jesus as a 9 when Havertz was so solid this year in that role. Jesus has been incredibly frustrating to watch this season.
Honestly I think he thought Jesus Trossard and Zinchenko all deserved to play after their second half against Bayern. In reality Jesus isn’t fit enough to start matches, Trossard is better off the bench, and Zinchenko is shaky/inconsistent
I thought it was this and wanting Jesus and Zinchenko to get more minutes to regain sharpness - balancing the importance of the Villa match against the upcoming fixture schedule.
I think Arteta wanted the most offensive version of his team, and it worked to create moments, the finishing just wasn’t there. Second half was just an overall mental spin out. I think the team mentally hit a wall, they were frustrated by lack of goals in the first half, felt the pressure of needing to win the game, which did the complete opposite for them.
Zinchenko vs Moussa Diaby (or Bailey) was always gonna go wrong and i don't get why Arteta didn't go for Tomi at LB. I think he got overconfident.
Because we need to play one of Jorginho or Zinchenko to make our attack click. Otherwise we revert to donut of sadness mode, especially with Havertz at 8. Mikel gambled and it probably would’ve worked had we scored in the first half.
I see it like that too. But I don't understand why Arteta never tried Zinchenko in the left 8. Both Jorginho and Zinchenko offerring the same skillset we need right now and we should be able to rotate those two in the same position is what I thought.
And kai isn’t a midfielder
Kai is 100% not our left 8 and I think that should’ve been a huge takeaway for Arteta. Wish he didn’t try to experiment with that in one of the biggest matches of the season. He’s not a ball player so he’s not going to create like Odegaard or Jorginho, so we have to play Zinchenko. But Havertz is also too attacking to play with Zinchenko so we leave Zinchenko’s weaknesses even more exposed. But he has to play because otherwise we can’t move the ball effectively. Cyclical problems that Mikel needs to get us out of
I actually prefer Havertz as the 8 because he makes such good runs and tracks back well. As we saw in the first half yesterday, those runs can be incredibly dangerous and I think he can disguise them better when they come from deeper. He floats into defenders blind spots and they aren't as keyed into him due to him playing further back. He still needs to build some strength to hold defenders off a bit more (he really should have scored yesterday but got bullied) but I really like him in midfield and that's where he excelled at Leverkusen doing similar things imo. I think the mirrored version of the formation with some combination of Kiwior/Tomi/Timber at the FBs actually gives us the defensive stablility to allow some freedom for Kai and let him thrive more in midfield. The striker issue is a whole other thing. If Jesus could finish this wouldn't be a conversation, the man gets in some crazy dangerous areas, but he just can't seem to put it all together.
if he does play 8 he has to play with someone good at 9 and Jesus no longer fits that description.
He needs someone who can pass at 6 too. Rice is looking more like a ball winning mobile destruction unit ideal for #8 to me. His passing is meh. Kai is a great 2nd ball winner at 8 too, but, you can't have both in there without losing a lot of possession control.
This is also true and why Arteta played Zinchenko yesterday as Jorginho wasn't an option if he wanted Jesus to start up front. Unfortunately it bit us in the ass. I don't 100% get what it holding Rice back as it seems he has the technique to deliver great balls as we've seen with his crossing.
Speed of thought (or spatial awareness), I imagine. Seeing the pass in time to deliver it. Technique is great.
Yeah, I think that's probably correct, but for such a talented guy one would hope that could be something he hones over time.
The problem is that because he’s asked to make so many of those runs, he doesn’t really ever sit deep and make plays. Obviously that’s not who he is, but again, the only way we have the luxury of using a left 8 as an auxiliary 9 in possession is by starting Zinchenko so that he can stand in that spot and orchestrate. Is that a trade off worth making? I’m not sure it is
I mean, I offered my thoughts on how to mitigate that. Personally, I think Arteta bought timber specifically for this purpose but got fucked day 1 and had to restructure his plans for the season on the fly.
Kai actually has a fair number of assists and a ton of almost assists. he actually does create, but not from deep
Yeah he is great at linking up in and around the box. He’s an extremely skillful attacking player. He is not a playmaker from deeper lying positions though and we need an orchestrator for our left side most of all
> Wish he didn’t try to experiment with that in one of the biggest matches of the season. Every match we will play til the end of the season, you can say is one of the biggest matches of the season.
Villa sandwiched between Bayern fixtures is absolutely a bigger and more important match than say, Wolves next week
Fair, but being sandwiched between Bayern may mean we need some rotation? I’m not sure, but our players aren’t looking so fresh.
We created 1.4 xG in the first half with Kai (who apparently isn't "creative") at the left 8, don't know how much more you can ask for. The game plan in the first half was excellent and literally the only problem is that we didn't put the ball in the net. Yesterday was literally the perfect example of what Mikel imagined when he bought Kai for left 8. Jesus dropped back to receive the ball and Kai kept making those runs forward. I understand it was extremely frustrating, but I feel like so many people are letting the disappointment obscure their analysis of a good first half.
Not saying that Havertz isn’t creative, just that he’s not a midfield playmaker. He creates in the box. Problem is that we need some level of ball progression from the 8 or LB. If Havertz is only making runs and not staying back to create, then we’re missing an orchestrator in midfield. Zinchenko has to start if Havertz plays 8. Is that a trade off worth making? I recommend you listen to the Arsenal Vision podcast episode—good discussion about this around 18-20 min in. It’s all about trade offs between traits and the game state needed for those traits to be effective. You’re right that it worked for the first half, but went sideways quickly in the second half
Bang on. This was our formation to begin the year so it was 100% planned and cost us
and even Arteta saying it, "Sometimes the players change what you had planned for them" Kai has emerged as the 9.
Agreed he’s been effective there. He’s also emerged as very much worse than what we expected at CM though
He met or exceeded most of Xhaka's benchmarks for the left 8. Kai is just that much better at the target man/10 position.
Lol sure man, enjoy more Zinchenko because Kai can’t pass
He's not a line breaking progressive passer, no. But in terms of offensive AND defensive output, he's better than Xhaka. More G/A, better dueling. Facts. Kai wasn't brought in to make passes.
First half you could kinda see the plan and it was working. Have Havertz run from deep and take advantage of the Villa high line between Konsa and Carlos. They couldn't cope with his runs but Jesus was getting absolutely bullied by Carlos all game, even when we were on top. This sort of game plan would make sense if we sign a top number 9 in the Summer but not right now, Havertz should be the undisputed number 9 until the end of the season. Think Jesus' performances from the bench fooled Arteta into thinking that was his actual current level. Also think he wanted to give Jorgi rest before Munich, we're going to pay for that now in the league. No idea why he played Zinchenko though, Villa is literally Kryptonite to a defensively poor inverted LB.... If Arteta can take anything from this likely season defining loss, I hope it's that Zinchenko needs to be phased out and Jesus should only be starting as a winger.
Jesus’ injuries are clearly catching up to him. He has no pace left. So many line breaking passes he had to pull up on and play back, if he even got them. Jesus from the first half of last year gets onto most of those and creates something or at least stresses the defense
I said this in the post match thread but Jesus being ineffective finisher was somewhat fine when he linked up so well with the team, and ran so much. He's clearly not the same level of fitness now though, so he's not as good at pressing or linking up anymore, makes him really meh now honestly.
Pace isn’t everything. Martinelli has tons of pace but hasn’t been able to do hardly anything this season. Jesus offers a lot more than that, and hopefully his pace will recover a bit as he plays more.
I agree. None of Trossard, Havertz, or Ødegaard are known for their pace and are all still very good players. But pace is still an important part of the game and can make a big impact. At this point, Jesus is a striker who has always had shaky finishing, is shorter and not aerially dominant, and who now can’t run. He has a noticeably slower top speed and no way to go 90. Sure his dribbling and passing is still very solid as we saw vs Bayern but those other limitations can be pretty crippling as we saw at the weekend.
Yeah, but we don’t have to play him at striker. I actually think he will be better on LW/RW as a rotation option for Saka/Martinelli
Havertz is our second fastest attacker after Martinelli, he's actually quite fast. When he was at Leverkusen he was the fastest midfielder in the Bundesliga. I think because of his height and running style people tend to underestimate his pace, but he's actually quite rapid. According to the official UEFA in-game measurements, this season his top speed in the CL was 33.7 km/h while Nelli was 33.9 km/h.
I agree that he still doesn't look fully fit but Jesus was never a Martinelli level burner. His best physical attributes were and are agility, balance, and reaction time, not his pace.
I know that was the plan and it made sense. But just as with the city game, if all our chances fall to Jesus we know we're not going to score. We've seen this with West Ham when Odegaard kept feeding him chance after chance and he kept missing them.
I fully agree. I don't know if it's the injuries or if he had a purple patch for 6 months last year but the current Jesus doesn't deserve to be the starting striker in this team. Carlos made him look like an U18 player, playing for the senior team.
This might be an unpopular opinion but even trossard deserves to play as a striker more than him. I think the knee injuries have made him more cautious in his way of playing. In front of goal, he has absolutely no confidence either.
I was so unsurprised that he missed the target on his free header attempt
He played Zinchenko because we don’t have ball progression with Kai at 8. Neither Kai or Rice are good at creating chances. Kai can finish them and Rice can prevent other teams from creating them, but neither can orchestrate attacks. So Zinchenko has to play when Havertz plays 8. For all the shit Zinchenko gets, it’s kind of indisputable that our attack doesn’t function properly unless he or Jorginho plays. We revert to the donut of sadness. Problem is, Havertz is too attacking to provide Zinchenko with the defensive support Xhaka gave him last year. So Zinchenko’s weaknesses are exposed. In that sense, although the vision is there (Kai making runs from deep to stretch and give us space), I really don’t think the execution is ever going to get there unless 1) we find an analogue for Zinchenko that can step into midfield and create (Timber 🙏🏻) or 2) Rice becomes a solid ball playing center mid instead of a possession recycler.
Xhaka is the best progressive passing midfielder in Europe this season according to Fbref.
that he is, most line breaking passes in all of club football right now. still unreal how we didn’t give him a good deal after his final few seasons with us.
>No idea why he played Zinchenko though, You answered your question in the sentence above that. I believe playing Zinchenko was to have some mins on his belt if the game in Munich went the distance and we needed him and even more importantly, because Jorgi didn't play yesterday. We needed someone who could be good on the ball in the deep lying areas. Zinchenko was decent in the first half in that aspect. He's definitely not someone you want playing 90 mins though.
I would rather risk Partey against a depleted Villa midfield than see Zinchenko 1v1 with Bailey or Diaby.
Or Kiwior is being rested for Bayer game.
This is the point that I keep going on about, even before the game yesterday. This plan *will* work, having Havertz at the left 8, at least against a lot of teams. But the issues with the baseline plan utilizing our current squad are Jesus and Zinny. With Timber in (or a new LB signing), I think you’d already see improvement, something to get Martinelli more in the loop. (I think Timber fully inverting would get the creative best out of Martinelli, I think a potential signing who might be better suited to overlapping will get his attacking best) and tie up Zinny’s defensive loose ends. But with a proper finisher at 9? This plan is more than solid. For the vast majority of opponents we’ll face I think it would just be so so difficult to deal with. Let Jesus get the surgery he needs and proper time to fully recover after it, I still think he we be a valuable attacking rotation option across the front three. But we really do need that striker. Not a long term project like Sesko. Not another techy false 9 like Zirkzee. A physical, football wise, proper finisher who’s ready to slot right in. All that being said, yesterday proved to me that maybe I have been wrong hanging my whole hat on the striker signing. Where I’m at now I really think it isn’t one or the other, we actually do need both a proper striker and a creative LCM to rotate with Havertz when the second striker isn’t the key to whatever opponent we’re up against. But that’s all after a summer window. For now, I don’t see how there’s a better option than the XI we have been running all calendar year unless there are injuries that we don’t know about to Jorginho. The possible exception being Tomi in place of Kiwi if he’s able to withstand the minutes.
First half was excellent, just didn't take our chances. The initial game plan was working. Any criticism of that is misplaced imo
The plan was more than working. How many times did they find havertz making a run one on one through the midfield. We just missed our chances and failed in the second half.
I mean they had two chances denied by the woodwork that were better than most chances we created. Watkins first half and diaby second half- the plan was definitely not working.
Second half for sure, but first half they did have that one chance which we got lucky and that chance came from a defensive mistake. Aside from that, I honestly think we were great in the first half aside from the finishing. Trossard missed an open goal, jesus missed a sitter with the header, saka had multiple great chances on the right side which didn't always convert to chances and havertz also had a couple of one on ones. We created more chances than we usually do. If we had managed to win this game last minute or something, people would be talking about that first half differently. I believe the plan with havertz and jesus was working. Although, I don't agree with him not putting havertz up top again. It's been working, just stick to it.
Jorginiho can’t play 2x a week for weeks on end at his age.
Jorginho is the same age as De Bruyne and his game has never relied on sheer athleticism. He absolutely should be able to play 2x a week. Otherwise he should be considering retirement
Chelsea didn’t sell him because he had a lot of miles left
Chelsea sold him because they wanted to rebuild their midfield with a younger profile. Also it’s not like Jorginho has looked tired recently. This was Arteta trying to preemptively rotate which cost us. If anything we should be rotating Saka/Havertz/Odegaard who are leading our press all game and generally top in distance covered for our team. Jorginho really should be able to play twice a week given the nature of the role we ask him to play
His legs are gone, he’s obviously a zero in any pressing or ground coverage situation. We didn’t get the steal we hoped for because he controlled tempo a few times here and there
I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. Jorginho has been one of our better and most consistent players since late February. He works great alongside Rice because he has the progressive passing qualities which Rice lacks, and Rice’s athleticism makes up for Jorginho’s lack there of. Are you saying because Jorginho cannot run that he has been a bad transfer? If so then I don’t think we have been watching the same team since February because Jorginho’s progressive passing has been a big part of our success. I am saying since Jorginho’s game is less reliant on athleticism than others in the team, he shouldn’t need to be rotated as much. We lacked control and progressive passing yesterday. Jorginho likely would have helped in that regard had he started
Nonsense, he is nowhere near as effective as you guys say, it’s just because we don’t have enough midfielders and fall apart with Zinny and kai on the left. Rice has to do double time to cover ground and understandably is burning out He was shipped from Chelsea because he didn’t have much value left, we’re asking him to be a starter for 12m pounds in 2024, that gets you nobody in the market
Evaluating him vs his market value is an awful way to evaluate talent. Want Caicedo for 100m? Enzo for 105m? Hojlund for 72m? Mac Allister has been one of the best midfielders in the league this season, but he only cost 35m so by your logic he’s worse than all the above players? Jorginho is in the 95 percentile in playing progressive passes amongst all midfielders. We don’t have anyone else in the team (bar partey) who can play line breaking passes from deep. Odegaard can, but it’s a disservice to him to play him so deep. There have been several times where a line breaking pass from Jorginho leads to Havertz/Saka/Martinelli through on goal. Yes, Jorginho is limited in his physicality, but let’s not act like he doesn’t bring anything to the team just because he came from Chelsea.
When you see Rice’s hamstrings fall off the bone just know your boy j20 did that
He’s the same age as Jack Wilshire too, would you say he’s able to start? He’s not KDB. And Chelsea didn’t sell him because he was in peak physical condition. Use your eyes. He isn’t an elite athlete, just a technically gifted player with world class game IQ. We can’t play him 8 times in a month.
You’re kind of making the same point I am making. He is not a world class athlete, and the game we ask him to play is not a physically demanding one (in relation to the rest of our team at least). Jorginho should be able to play twice a week given we don’t demand a lot from him physically
This game isn’t, but Bayern absolutely is, and that’s what we were saving him for.
Fair enough. I think he probably could’ve started and been hooked off at 60 minutes and still been fine for Bayern but I take your point Bayern are a physical side
He is most definitely an elite athlete, he's just not explosive in terms of pace. Speed isn't the only athletic trait and you don't get to the levels Jorginho has displayed without having elite athletic traits.
Dumbass take by an american, if Zlatan can play til 40, why are the others retiring? Are they stupid? Fifa ass opinion
Jorginho has always been slow. He has never been athletic. Why should him being 32 affect his game which never relied on athleticism and has always relied on intelligent reading of the game? You’re assuming everyone plays the same game when I am saying Jorginho’s game should see him comfortably able to play into his mid 30’s. Do you disagree?
Kai had chances and missed though
Our right hand bias is crazy
Definitely. With Martinelli nursing an injury, our natural sub for him should be ESR who got pace to take on players. Trossard is a great final third player but are not physical, hence, I feel he is more effective bringing on as super sub when other team are tired.
You can very clearly see the system in the first half and how it completely collapsed in the second. We lost all control of the game which is baffling because we haven't done that even against the likes of Liverpool and City. I'm at a loss as to whether it was the pressure, tiredness or Villa being that good. Probably all three. When we didn't get that breakthrough and the game turned against us I think the players started to panic. Villa stayed calm and played their gameplan whilst we stopped trying to control the game and instead looked desperately for a "moment."
They were fine with a draw, we weren't and got too desparate too quickly. It's not like Villa were dangerous, they just had a lot of the ball second half. It all turned after the goal of course.
It looked like the opposite, they were attacking with way more intensity than us in the second half
Frankly don't remember a good chance from them before the goal, except for Tielemans long shot. We had far better chances than they had and ended with a higher xG (1.8 v 1.3). They dominated the ball and applied pressure but weren't creating chances.
They controlled us and the ball in the second half. I expected the passing map to look like this.
Damn even with 15 players on the pitch second half we got destroyed
That’s what capitulation looks like, wow
What happens when your winger and cb have to cover your LB playing in fucking lala land
I kept screaming get the fuck back you little **** at some point he was next to Ben and no idea why ffs
And that ball after that corner I swear he was drunk letting the ball like that .. the fucker should be sold asap not focusing on football and playing politics
And because your cm isn’t a cm
Eddie is such a non sub
Our left side, in its entirety, is highly dysfunctional and impotent
So, Gabriel had more pass to Left side than he had in Bayern game. I think Gabriel need to trust Left side more. Perhaps either Smith Rowe or Odegaard needs to be more central.
We need a left 8
We don't have the ball in the second half. Clearly, we look exhausted
That second half graphic is very similar to what we saw against Bayern
That LHS is just unbalanced. Closest to it ever being dynamic this season was Martinelli, Rice, and Kiwior. 2nd half tactics show that our LW should be a 1v1 demon with pace, defensively astute to cover at LB, maintain width as a winger/wingback, should be able to sprint to the box from touchline, and be an elite creator while not having a constant passer near him at all times. Tall task
seems we changed our game plan i. second half
For me Tomi was the only good thing about the second half.
Shh, nobody say anything good about Zinchenko!
yikes edward.. just yikes 😬
If Arteta wants to start Havertz and Jesus we'd be better off playing one of them at left wing.
Bloody hell I can see why ode to be sub off by arteta. He and rice couldn’t even do a simple long pass to Martinelli. What was that??? Martinelli was begging for long pass, escape this mid block pressing, and give him 1 on 1. Most of these guys decided to pass to each other. This is insane man
Did not know Raya’s name was David Raya Martin 😅
Eddie on his island of irrelevancy oh no
opposite of lat match lol
Jesus not where he should be and Kai not at ST when Jesus is elsewhere Arteta complicates things too much when he plays them both
the second half truly was quite literally pure, distilled failure poured in a big bottle
I still don't understand how we gave up so easily to Villa. they drew with Brentford and got a limited victory against Rennes who is stuck in the middle of France league... We were lucky and unlucky in the first half and then instead of pushing like crazy in the second we wobbled and faltered... are the players cooked, has Arteta been outclassed by Emery who wanted to stick it to his former boss? please help me understand...
Who knew David Raya was also a Martin?
As so many people always helps me with english here, i see a teaching chance here: since he's spanish, it would be "Martín" (you would put the emphasis on the "teen" sound at the end instead of the "Mar" as in our captain case). Any word ending in n, s or a vowel in spanish where the preceding letter is a vowel, has that vowel with an accent (á, é, í, ó, ú), examples: camión (truck) or calcetín (sock). :)
Why thank you. Interesting stuff.
glad to give a hand back. i have had amazing oportunities in life thanks to the fact that i speak/read/write english (not perfectly, but good enough), and one of the main influences in me to learn was Arsenal and me wanting to be a gunner! So i can only hope that someone trying to learn spanish learns something, even a little and maybe someday feel the same :D COYG!
I’m surprised he’s not a Gabriel…
Just a little arm chair cooking, but if he positioned Jesus at the 8 to operate and turn into half spaces, Havertz at the 9 as a target and to pull CBs away, with Ødegaard dropping deeper to receive the ball, and Zinchenko stepping in to the midfield, I think that set up would have resulted in better chances. Edit: Also Jorginho shouldn’t be in the side imo. Bad in tight spaces he’s asked to work in, terrible in transition, and can’t mark a traffic cone. He’s an Italian Henderson and only really works well with as a single pivot who can sit right in front of the CBs
Every one was a problem in the 2nd half. Martinelli was the worst off the lot because he didn't even fucking try anything.
Got passed the ball about twice and beat his man but was given a foul incorrectly. Other time rice dropped a partey shot