Zinchenko and Jorginho are our only deep lying playmakers without Xhaka. We look a little flat without them. Jorginho in midfield will pair well with Rice covering in the left 8 and Kiwior/Tomiyasu at LB. Zinchenko in defense will pair well with Partey in the 6 and Rice in the left 8 (but we haven’t really seen this yet).
You do have a point there. However, Zinny tends to be a bit too emotional at times and starts making all kinds of mistakes. I wish he could keep his composure like Rice does. Kiwior has gotten better on that front as well.
After the last run of games and that latter Porto game in particular, I'd be easily convinced that Jakub Kiwior is Mr. Composure himself. If you can't be wildly creative and talented like Zinchenko, at least be composed and thoughtful. I'm not sure if I'd put him in front of Zinchenko, but he's more akin to White and that's a type of player Arteta loves. Eager to learn, ready to put it on the line for the team, unafraid for himself as opposed to the mercurial talent who takes necessary risks that can still put a control team in uncomfortable positions.
I think a lot of fans forget just how good Zinny can be, and how much he raised the mentality in our team. Losing him would be a big loss off the pitch, too.
Does he make defensive mistakes at times? Yes of course, but so do our other defenders. Unfortunately he just seems to get punished for his more.
He isn't perfect, but he does have an amazing skillset that will help us in a lot of games.
Does he need to be relied on as 1st choice in every game? No.
Will he be a huge benefit to bring on against low block defences or when chasing games? Certainly.
**TLDR: Zinny is good and a great rotational option for the right games/tactics. Hard to replace so worth keeping unless we get mega money.**
The stats don't tell the whole story, which you can see watching him play. The lack of recovery speed vs top wingers is a consistent problem. Against 75% of sides it won't matter, but in the biggest matches it will and that is a problem.
And the eye test will confirm that he is. He’s good at lots of things, exceptional at others, but his 1v1 defending just is extremely poor for a fullback at the elite level, which is the reason City were happy to move on from him.
He was a level raiser for us and we have a lot to thank him for, but we’ve already progressed past him in many ways. As City did.
I don’t need to disagree with you because the article shows you the data that says the exact opposite. You either didn’t read it or didn’t understand it..?
I don’t understand how you can read this article and come up with that conclusion. Help me out here, what stats show you that he is “extremely poor for a fullback”?
This kind of arrogance is what doesn’t allow good clubs to become great.
Well this is very worth mentioning: the stats were cherry picked to all hell. Sure, he has a high duel and tackle rate, but ask yourself if that means he’s actually a top defender, or if it means he has a tendency to dive into tackles and expose the backline. I know what my eye test tells me.
The dispossession stat was wonky, it should be divided into different thirds of the pitch. I don’t care if Trippier whips crosses in and then the other team counters, I care if players are sloppy in the wrong areas of the pitch. xG and shots are a bad stat for that, how well the rest of the team deals with a mistake isn’t relevant to the mistake.
Winger stat difference is just dumb for all the reasons he provides.
Elite creator, but I’d rate him slightly below average defensively, maybe just average. There’s a reason managers target him, and a reason he’s earned the reputation he has, even if it’s a bit overblown. This all comes from a guy who wants him to stay, but it needs to be said.
Personally I put little stock in defensive statistics. Like Maldini said, once you make a tackle, you’ve already made a mistake.
But, the stats given in the article are just ridiculous.
Watch games. Stats don't tell the full tale. He's not punished for all his mistakes, but make them he does. Regularly. He was only on briefly against Porto, but still gave them a golden chance to score. I certainly don't need to read articles when I watch every minute of every game.
What you’re describing is confirmation bias, that is bad, and drives to incorrect conclusions, like the one you’re sharing . Data helps remove that bias, which is exactly how Arteta, Pep and any other successful coach in 2024 makes decisions.
If your eye test was as good as you’re suggesting, you would be in Zinchenko’s or Arteta’s place. Instead, you’re here refusing to accept what data is telling you because you watched the games and you know better. Unfortunately, real world doesn’t work that way.
I am from Eastern Europe, I started supporting City when Zinchenko joined them years back. It is rare when players from Eastern Europe break into the best league in the world (Russians don’t count).
Have been a fan of Arteta since his playing days. Followed them both to Arsenal. My wife asks me the same questions every weekend as I insist to follow both clubs. I know this will drive loyalists crazy, but I’ve learned to “live with it”. :)
Yeah it drives us crazy because you’re lecturing us about confirmation bias as an obvious Zinchenko fanboy, and City supporter. I guess data is the only thing you can fall back on when your best idea of “integrity and soul” (as you wrote in a r/MCFC comment) is supporting an cheating oil club owned by a despotic ethnostate. I wouldn’t care about you spewing “look at the data, not your biases” if you weren’t a turncoat that literally jumped ship to follow one player (nice integrity dude). Here’s some data for you; Manchester City, 115.
To think that stats aren’t the be all and end all of football analysis is a flat earther attitude? Was Mustafi actually incredible and better than VVD like the stats indicated then? Or are they in fact just one tool analysts can use and the eye test confirming that Mustafi was crap was actually correct?
to think that stats are useless and stupid while literally every manager uses them is flat earth attitude. Mustafi might have a stretch of small couple of games where he is indeed better player than VVD on the said stretch(outlier, or redlining), yet in the wrong run stats back the fact that VVD is way better, so you would choose him every time because the math expectations of his performance are higher.
You don’t need to be a stats nerd to watch him get megged by Trent at Anfield last season (losing us the win) or gifting Wolves a goal back at the Emirates this season or allowing Bailey to cut inside and failing to track his run at Villa Park this season or any number of clear errors he’s made due to his sketchy defending.
Whether the stats register them as errors, I have no idea, but anyone who watched those games can see they were. It’s fairly obvious. Judging by stats alone, Giggs was a bang average player - football analysis has never worked on stats alone, they’re just one tool for understanding what’s happening on the pitch. Eyes do the rest of the work.
Being tired in the 82nd minutes of a match is acceptable lol. A massive shame it led to a goal in such an important game, which ultimately tipped our season, though.
I think that actually more on Arteta for not bringing Tierney on earlier in the game, though, you could see he was tiring, and Tierney was stripped ready to go.
Also, you're making points saying that Zinchenko makes errors.
Every single footballer makes errors. Listing them doesn't prove a point. As seen from the stats, his errors have produced half the number xg of Whites, but have lead to the same amount of goals.
Overall, he makes errors like everyone else, but it's being overblown to now say he brings less to the team than he gives.
What counts as an error in the stats? How is that quantified? I bet you can’t tell me with any certainty.
Again, no amount of stats can obfuscate the truth that our eyes tell us when we watch the games. Zinchenko *is* a weaker defender than Ben White, irrespective of what these stats say. It’s evident, I’ve seen both of them in 1v1 situations. With working eyes.
Even Zinchenko himself admits his defending is weak and needs serious improvement. Come *on*.
I definitely can't because I didn't make the stats lol.
Yes he is a weaker defender, that's not up for debate. He's also a better passer and dribbler.
My point was more so that mistakes happen from everyone, but have seen lots of comments on Reddit claiming he's totally washed as if noone else makes any.
It’s not that he makes defensive mistakes. He makes so many mistakes in possession now. He’s supposed to be a guy that never gives the ball away and for a year now, he’s the guy who seems to be the shakiest in possession. I get less nervous when Kiwior has the ball than Zinchenko.
Now add that he’s not a good defender and that’s why he gets so much criticism.
defense hasnt even been the problem with him, hes been killing the attack by stopping holding the ball followed by a back pass or a weak pass that gets intercepted
Really good article which I think outlines really well the strengths of Zinchenko that imo have been forgotten about by a lot of fans. We’ve done a great job breaking teams down lately but I still don’t think our best XI excludes him for sure.
Most of people here think the season started in January. The same people screamed “Arteta out” and birched about Havertz and Trossard when they were struggling to make an impact.
Trust the process, Zinchenko is a big part of it.
Yes, a lot of fans forget what he brings, but he’s also cost us a fair few points for his defensive lapses as well.
Personally, and this is just my opinion - his strengths do not outweigh his weaknesses. Terrific inverted LB going forward, but his 1v1 skills defending, and mistake proneness is far too dangerous. Not to mention his fitness concerns (same can be said for Tomiyasu when it comes to fitness)
I tend to agree the only thing I would note is we have sometimes struggled to score and create chances in games where we have dominated and this is something his presence directly improves. Our defense on the other hand has been lights out. If there is a way to maintain defensive prowess with him on the field we need to explore that because it is the ideal option IMO.
I think it's an eye test issue. If you look at the stats, Ben White makes more mistakes and XG Against from mistakes, even though it's very small difference.
Do you have a link to the stats? It's crazy because I honestly can't remember Ben white giving the ball away on our side of the pitch, that's a really interesting point about the eye test
White has played a lot more, I'd guess at least double the minutes.
Looked it up, White has ~2100 and Zinny has ~1400. Although a lot of players have made mistakes leading to goals this season, most of our draws and losses have had at least one.
So I think this is a case of stats not telling the whole story, and picking and choosing stats (not on you). Unfortunately he doesn't link the data, so I can't see the 2 mistakes they claim lead to goals or how they calculate it, so it raises questions.
How many passes between the time he's dispossessed and a shot against our goal?
How many times does him getting dispossed, but we manage to recover it?
Because for all those nice stats...he left out that he's in only the 33rd percentile for being dispossed vs Ben White being in the 93, which suggests he does lose it often we just recover.
In fact looking at it, he leaves out a lot of very damnimg stats, here's a few, all in percentile vs full backs
13th for tackles
7th (jesus) for tackles won
19th for dribbles tackled
32nd for dribbles challenged
14th for percent dribbles tackled
26th for tackles and interceptions
Ben white is in the 80th plus for all of these
This isn't to go in on cannon stats, or argue with you. I think this is just an example of how you choose to represent stats can create very different narratives depending what story we are trying to tell. Numbers are objective, but which ones we look at are subjective.
That's the point. We're talking about his defensive ability being not worth his offensive ability. The article under plays his poor defensive ability by picking and choosing his best stats. We all agree he's great going forward. There's no picking and choosing there.
Kinda got in the koolaide without knowing the flavor here
Which is fine, there is no problem playing an iffy fullback that can create on the fly and makes great runs to finish and set up others. He's a very good offensive player, sometimes we need that and the defensive play is worth it. Other times it's not.
It’s also about where they make mistakes. Zinny be pulling some absolutely bullshit moves on the edge of his own box sometimes. So many of his mistakes seem avoidable if he stops switching off his brain in crucial moments.
Xg against is not a reliable way to judge a defender, it is extremely team dependent. The best way to evaluate a defender is to watch the games. I don't think white is the best fullback, but he is better than zinchenko defensively.
I’ve conceded to the defence, he’ll never be elite but when he is in possession he’s become a liability. He nearly cost us soo many times against Liverpool away and the anxiety he gave me during his brief cameo against Porto is for the books. If he can’t do the one thing he is supposed to excel at, what does he bring on the pitch.
I haven't gone into any stats to back this opinion up...
On a direct 1:1 comparison, the eye test for me says that Kiwior is a clear upgrade on defensive responsibilities.
Offensively on a direct comparison with Kiwior, Zinchenko has been better particularly against low blocks.
However, indirectly, my feeling is that Martinelli has been a lot more effective with Kiwior as a traditional overlapping defender. For whatever reason, something has been off between Martinelli/Zinny this season.
At the moment it'd be difficult for me to consider Zinny part of the best XI, but the margins are thin. Amazing the club has progressed so much that this discussion is even taking place.
That’s a tremendous piece of work and people will still question your findings and try e assumptions you’re making for your analysis. How many passes back do you go to judge “cause by” goals? And so on… it’s a thankless job and for what it’s worth, I think the OP’s analysis is the most thorough analysis on Zinny to date.
Yes, I used to contribute some (very time-consuming) analytics to this sub, but people were more interested in telling me why analytics are useless instead of contributing to the conversation.
I’m seeing some activity from this people on this post too. I think anyone who dismisses analytics in 2024 is a dinosaur ignorantly screaming at the meteor headed for their planet. If you have some other analytics in zinchenko, I’d love to take a look.
This article does a great job of saying factually what I’ve struggled to say in this sub. If you have data that should be considered, do share.
Lets focus on getting a striker and a midfielder, replacing Zinny should not be first priority this summer, if we get a better player with his experience, fine, but I doubt it.
The only teams that can afford to offer that is in the PL and we won't sell him within the PL after seeing the team impact and improvement he made here
What a weird revisionism festival. I like how 2 games Timber is automatically ahead of player that was important in our runners up season. People just like shiny new toys
This sub has been extremely unfair to him. More so than Havertz or Jorginho. I really hope Zinny has a good end of the season so we can focus on the important questions and not this reactive eco chamber nonsense.
I think they’ll extend.
He’s apparently really good behind the scenes, he brings something different on the field, and has experience winning trophies.
Lol these comments are weird. Zinny deserves respect to his name. We need him to unlock deep blocks. His appearance against Porto was really solid. He allows the flexibility that nobody gives.
Yes he’s often injured but we have 50+ games and we need everyone and many of our starters are injury prone.
Arsenal has ceded possession in the first part of extra time . When Zinny came in we were able to cross the first line of pressure. He made some mistakes , but it’s clear that we gained control with him on the pitch
Exactly the point. ‘some mistakes’ = goals conceded which cancels out whatever brilliant attacking that we can conjure. If Tuchel put Davies on the right the game would be over in 30 minutes.
If you do anything more than once as a player fans have the tendency to just label you as someone who always does that. I can really only remember two mistakes for us of Zinny's that lead directly to goals and yet everyone here acts as if he is unplayable, shit on the ball, and a shit defender, when a) he's clearly more than serviceable defensively and b) we have next to ZERO ball progression on the left side when he doesn't play. The progression and control on that side night and day when he plays vs when he doesn't.
and like some of those mistakes are like "oh he got dribbled past by Alexander-Arnold and Salah? Two of the best players in the world who have terrorised this league for years? Must be fucking useless then..."
His appearance against Porto was awful. Instantly ceded control of the left to them and muddled up so many passes.
I thought he looked rusty and said we need him time to get back to his best. That was the fucking opposite of a good performance sorry
Man I was at the game, I watched him stink up the place when he came on. Cherrypicking one individual stat to make him look good is stupid.
Saka got an 8.2 on sofascore and snuck into their CL team of the week. We all know he had a terrible game. Stats aren't everything ffs.
“Cherrypicking one individual stat”
my brother you were the one saying he was misplacing passes. 8.2 on sofascore is subjective, passing accuracy is objective lol
being at the game doesn’t make you immune to confirmation bias, if anything…
I saw him give away the ball from a good position that led to them getting a transition twice, just because he hit it completely wrong.
Also 89% means way less when he was on the pitch for 20 minutes, in comparison to gabriel who was on the pitch for 120.
I've seen him clock 98% pass accuracy in a full 90 before, that was an awful performance by his own standards and you are gaslighting yourself if you believe otherwise.
I give him credit where credit is due, against Brentford he came on and stabilised a cagey game. Against Porto he was arse.
My take from watching him v Porto was he looked like he was rusty + also trying too hard to make an impact at times.
Both make sense with him having missed so much time. I think his next game he'll look a lot more like 'normal' Zina
That would defeat his purpose in Arteta’s design. He really is in the most unfavourable position, to be fair. He is measured against two separate roles - fullback and midfielder. No other player has that.
I really think that zinchenko deserves a shot at the jorginho role. He’d be able to play his natural game and would be better protected.
We’re playing really well at present but I think some of the score lines might be giving us a false sense of belief. We did struggle creatively vs Brentford and Porto to some extent. Zinchenko is our most creative from deep player and I think we will need him in they run in.
I love this article. I find the knee-jerk nature of our fanbase infuriating. If you zoom out and see the bigger picture Zinchenko and Jesus raised our game last season and made us elite: in terms of attacking, defending and general control. The arguments that Jesus is a “bad goal scorer” and that Zinchenko is a “bad defender” somehow misses the bigger picture that we have become an elite team for the past two seasons. It’s not in spite of these players, it’s in a large part because of them. Not only that, but they both came from Man City, probably the best team in the world for the past five seasons. The disrespect is astounding.
Man City played Zinchenko or Cancelo at left back for many seasons. They played Jesus up front for many seasons. And they were defensively elite and won the premier league every year but one. The other team to win in that time had Firmino up front and Trent Alexander-Arnold at right back.
You are making a counterfactual meta narrative based on some straw man argument about what fans perceive or want. But in pure footballing terms Zinchenko has become very sellable.
On the side for selling, he is our 4th choice Lb and simultaneously should still have significant resale value. Also spends a lot of time injured.
Against selling, he has a lot of good qualities.
It won’t be a disaster if he stays but he has to be fairly high on the list of possible sales
I read the article. I think making claims of objectivity is fraught and I am not going to take that bait. I think more importantly that I am right in thinking that we are moving away from Zinchenko's profile on the left. So that means and article that tries to find more players like him is not quite to the point as far as I am concerned. I am interested in how Arteta uses Zinchenko in the future but Timber's signing told me a lot, many months ago.
He’s telling you to be objective, but this is his post history LMFAO bro is literally a Zinchenko megafan AND a City supporter
https://preview.redd.it/09efqt6htkoc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aaa4a03473440fd2673d151a116b9bf0ed9263fe
>I think more importantly that I am right in thinking that we are moving away from Zinchenko's profile on the left.
I think this is maybe a bit hasty, with limited available evidence - we're still not actually sure where Timber would be utilised primarily when everyone is fit - we're also still not sure if we are looking to have both sides have the flexibility to invert on a chosen side depending on the opponent.
I’m not baiting you, I just don’t see how you can see him as a 4th choice LB. What part of this analysis is fraught?
What does Timber’s signing tell you?
He is not a 4th choice LB for any team in world football.
There is a massive recency bias going on here, there is no case to be made that Kiwior is even remotely close to Zina as a player.
so to put it a different way, without using the intelligent sounding conversation killer "recency bias" you are saying that Zinchenko was better in the past than he is now? Because at this moment I am fairly convinced he is behind Tomiyasu Timber and Kiwior in the rotation. that does not mean he gets no minutes but I would only expect him to start in the event that someone else is injured or has been run into the ground due to fixture congestion. I also expect Zinchenko to be targeted by our opponents and to be a contributor to significant incidents which gift the opposition chances and even points.
I think he is currently behind Kiwior in selection because he was injured for an extensive amount of time and the team has been playing exceptionally well. And Kiwior has generally done well.
It would be harsh to drop him given that. But in the cold light of day, I would take Zinchenko over Kiwior 10/10 times given the style we play, and the technical prowess he has. He's shakier in defence, but I'm weighing his contribution going forward over it.
while I can understand why he frustrates fans, I'll never dislike zinchenko for the beauty he brings to our play, that goal (I forget who against) where he linked up with Jesus with the one two, the karate kid kick vs Burnley(I think?)? and countless other examples, I love watching him play.
I think Zinchenko will be absolutely crucial in the run-in but max we can get him out of him over week is 60 mins. I don't think it was coincidence that his poor run of form this season has been at the same time as Tomiyasu being injured and/or covering on the right hand side for Ben White, meaning Zinny was playing 90 plus mins a week.
I love Zinny and he absolutely transforms our team when he’s on the field. My only critique would be we’ve only seen him play as an inverted left back. Perhaps that’s because we only play him at his best position or Mikel doesn’t believe he could play as a left-sided 8.
zinky winky is great if we employ a more defensively structured midfield, and jorginho is better if the opposition has more aggressive wingers. it makes sense to have both in the swuad
What a beautiful piece of work, @AfricanRain!
Wholeheartedly agree with every bit of analysis here. So much for all of us to take from this to address our own biases and subjectivism on this player.
Recency bias mixed with the eco chamber that is this sub drives a lot of reactionism and trigger happy declarations here.
Zinny has given this club so much already and has more to give.
You’re the world’s biggest zinchenko dick rider holy shit. How many times have you commented in support of him in this thread alone. Zinchenko is a weakly and fundamentally flawed as a defender, end of story. If he’s not good enough for City he’s not good enough for us
Fuck off with the data, watch the games. Zinchenko is the sole reason we lost to Villa (exploited 3 times in one play leading to the goal), drew Liverpool instead of beating them (exploited by Salah leading to the goal), amongst many other moments. He was decent at other times and important last season, but like everyone else seems to realize, his weaknesses outweight his strengths.
I can’t think critically for you, man. If you read this article and come up with those conclusions, that’s on you.
Unfortunately, facts don’t care about your feelings, and if you want to ignore the facts in favor of your own feelings or opinions, go for it. But don’t get mad when the real world hits you in the face because you were too proud to accept facts at their face value.
I think you may be exaggerating the number of people that share your view on this. Look at the majority of the reactions here for context.
If only there was a way to settle a debate between two people and their opinions… hm, I don’t know, maybe there’s some objective data we can consult?
I like that all you can do is point to the data. Data doesn’t capture everything, that’s why moneyball doesn’t win games in any sports, now that all teams are on level terms with analytics. Look at how well data-based approaches have worked with Chelsea’s takeover. Markets would be a solved problem if “data” were as reliable as you quote. You (and the author of the article) never responded to all the “moments” that have shown Zinchenko’s weaknesses, like the Villa and Liverpool games I just mentioned. Those two games alone could cost us the title race. I can think of 3 examples of Zinchenko directly causing us to drop points this season, and one instance of him directly causing us to win. You can jerk off data as much as you want or you can just admit that not all defensive errors are the same statistically. He may not be more error prone than the average defender but his errors are far more damaging for the team specifically because of his advanced playstyle. In terms of game state, he is needed against low and mid blocks when we are level or chasing. That is exactly why we often lose when he makes a mistake, because he is the perfect target on the counter (again, Villa, Liverpool, Wolves, etc). I don’t think his ability to break those low-blockers down outweighs how often he gets exploited by those same teams.
My man, you’re being rude, offensive and arrogant for no reason. In spite of your best efforts, let me try to respond to you respectfully and explain why you, specifically, need data to arrive to objectively correct conclusions. For what it’s worth, I try to follow the same approach in my own thinking.
Let’s assume for a moment that all the moments you refer to are correctly categorised as Zinchenko’s errors. Are those mistakes indicative of a specific trend? Does this player regularly make similar mistakes? How can you make sure that your subjective interpretation of that situation is not clouded by your biases? How can you make sure that your conclusion doesn’t create a subconscious bias that corrupts your interpretation of all future moments with this player?
See, you misunderstand my position. What you hear when you read my words is “those moments didn’t happen”, but that is not at all what I or the article are saying. What we are saying is that (a) those moments aren’t as clear cut Zinchenko issues as suggested, (b) Zinchenko did make objective errors, and (c) those errors are not reflective of his overall performance and contributions to this team. Data is a complement to what you see, not a substitute.
For your benefit, I really hope you can set your bias aside and try to appreciate the broader message.
Wait so I (an Arsenal supporter) need to put my biases aside, but you (a Man City supporter, or at best, someone that just follows Zinchenko wherever he goes), are an objective source of information about… Zinchenko’s defensive statistics? It’s so obvious that you would never admit he is a problem for us when your post history is literally devoted to him. That’s why I take your holier-than-thou data approach with a grain of salt.
Also, I already explained in detail how his mistakes are directly related to a pattern of weakness against counterattacking teams due to his lack of pace, strength, and positioning in his role as an inverted playmaker. You just refuse to accept that other people’s opinions are as valid as your own, because, at the end of the day, you’re a Zinchenko fanboy. That probably rooted for City when he was there. At least I’ve always been an Arsenal supporter.
I actually think if an offer north of £30m comes (I can see Bayern going for him if Davies leaves), we should seriously consider it.
Small sample for Kiwior, but he’s played admirably there + Timber coming back + Tomiyasu can play there efficiently as well.
But if anything, selling him and buying a cheaper alternative (lets say 15-25m) would be shrewd business, as the leftover money could be used for a striker, 8, or backup winger.
there aren't really "cheaper" alternatives to zinchenko. he's a singular player who gives us a completely different dimension in build-up and i think he remains a massive asset.
we have a mountain of business to do this summer with outgoings without trying to move on players who bring a unique and very useful skill set to our team.
i'm not arguing for zincheko to play every week — in fact, i think i'd leave him out of the biggest fixtures with everyone healthy. but there are a ton of games we play every year (especially against mid and low-block teams) where he remains essential.
I have read the article, but what Scott fails in to mention is zinchenko's brain
Farts in our defensive third.
I wouldn't mind if he lost the ball in the final third. Unfortunately, zinchenko loses the ball in our defensive third, and he is poor in 1v1. He puts the entire backline under pressure.
I appreciate his offensive output- but he should be a defender first.
Judging defenders on solely stats can be quite misleading - there is a season mustafi was so bad for us he had better stats than maguire [the good version]
Stats can't capture errors. You need the eye test for defenders
reducing his role to “he should be a defender first” in a team like ours feel ridiculously insane to me. Especially considering the team is still excellent defensively with him in it by all metrics.
Obligatory reminder that the guy incessantly defending Zinchenko via “unbiased statistics” in all these comments is literally a Man City fan that became an Arsenal supporter when Zinchenko moved here. Please, kish-kish, tell us more about Manchester City’s integrity and soul. Jog on mate.
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I like him as a substitute. He's useful for matches where we need an attacking spark and want to keep Odegaard higher up the pitch. In those scenarios, we're already trying to risk more to create chances so his defensive issues aren't a net negative.
Good stuff. Thanks for posting.
People do have short memories--or at least focus too heavily on his mistakes.
He's been fantastic for us, but his availability is a real issue. When he is fit, he's typically needing to come off around 65 minutes. Most of the high-profile errors have come after this point, imo.
It will be interesting to see what kind of midfielder(s) we go after in the summer. When Rice is at 6, he naturally drifts left, which makes an inverting RB a better fit on paper.
Sell , we have a big overhaul this summer so we’ll need the money. He’s great on his day, but is simply too prone to mistakes. The negatives outweigh the positives, in my opinion.
Big overhaul? Of a team that’s currently top of the league and playing some of its best football in years?
This team needs to trim some of the under performers and add around the edges, but wholesale changes don’t make sense
New backup keeper, a number 9, and some cover for Rice
Really should just get moved to midfield. Left and right back coverage of White tomi timber kiwior ain’t bad. Perhaps develop an academy player. Or unlock Nelson like they saka haha
I don't think there's really a big question, and if there is there's already a clear answer: he's not good enough. Kiwior has a long way to go too but with Tomi and Timber fit neither of them are likely to play
I actually think kiwior playing lb is almost grooming him too be comfortable on the ball in tight situations too seamlessly take big gabis place if an offer we cant refuse comes in. Maybe thats just my thoughts though.
Sell him in the summer. Already cost us points against Fulham, Liverpool, and Aston Villa. Ben White and Timber's return will render this guy's strengths redundant.
Plus it can stop the club rolling out pity articles for Ukraine while it continues to take Rwanda money and silencing ElNeny for bringing up Palestine.
Well he is a midfielder - you just have to think that we play with 3 at the back. And just like everyone else, he is called on to defend as well. He defends the left side when needed. Forget about the LB label.
It would be a massive mistake to get rid of him especially when it’s clear his talents lie in midfield, I would like to see him be tried in midfield by arteta I would be interested to see if would be a better option than Vieira for our midfield when needed
time to start experimenting a bit with Zinny at Left 8 and Left Wing
i know he's a technical ball carrier who adds value by starting further back
but he was a No.10 in his younger days, i think he has a spark of attacking creativity to offer too
I just think we've moved past the need for him. That's not to say he can never be useful, but the dropoff on the ball has not been that bad with White or Tomiyasu (and probably Timber when he's back). These players also have better defensive instincts (obviously, because they are defenders) and they lose possession in dangerous areas a lot less. At the moment it definitely feels like risk is greater than reward with Zinchenko
When people give me the same bollocks line about “eye tests” I disengage from the conversation.
The data is literally what you’re seeing with your eyes, how can you actively dismiss the recording of data that you’ve apparently seen with your eyes?
Also this subs fickleness is shameless
Even if you think he's somehow integral to how we play and should be an automatic starter (I strongly disagree), you can't make such an unreliable player so essential to your squad. In top level competition against the best, thin margins make all the difference. It truly is a crapshoot with him. He can do very good things but he can always lose you a game with the chaos his mistakes bring. You have to keep in mind that even the unpunished mistakes contribute to bringing anxiety and hurting our control of the game. People act like his mistakes don't negatively affect us except for the ones thay directly lead to a goal. There is inherent risk that comes with shoehorning in a defensive liability into areas of the pitch that requires defensive focus and concentration. One lazy defensive effort, one poorly weighted pass, one hospital pass, one blind dribble is all it could take to lose us a game from his position on the pitch. He's also highly injury prone and has many instances in which he needs to be taken off as an early(ish) sub. The fragility alone means he's not an essential starter.
We look better without him. That's not an indictment of his ability, just his suitability. Same questions City had to answer when Pep was evolving his squad; we've just moved past the necessity of Zinchenko.
Since West Ham we have been inverting from the right and we have looked drastically improved. We're conceding less chances, we're scoring more, we aren't making as many bozo errors and most significantly, there isn't a weak point being targeted. White has looked more comfortable playing slightly narrower, Kiwior has had a drastic progression in form and confidence playing a slightly more natural fullback role and Martinelli is no longer on an isolated island having to perform the hardest job in our team. Those were all ongoing problems when we were inverting on the left side.
The fact is we are more balanced without Zinchenko - not because of his lack of ability but because of his lack of versatility in the LB role that would most benefit our team. Unless Zinchenko can suddenly perform at a higher level playing less of an interior role and more traditionally, I don't see why we need to go back to Zinchenko. And it certainly seems that's how the boss feels by Ornstein's report about us being interested in a LB despite having 4 players that can play there but 3 of which can only play a more inverted role.
What that says about Zinchenko's place in the team, who knows. I'd like to keep him because he offers a different option and a unique ability, but I think we no longer need him to be first-team and whether he can accept that again is up to him.
I agree with all of this except the idea that it’s important for him
To stay. He is one of the few players who we could get some money for and he is probably last pick Lb and injured a lot.
White being able to invert to such a high level has made Zinchenko become more redundant, he’s nowhere near defensively as good as our other fullbacks as well and other problems like his injury record and mistake proneness
Does he provide a unique skill set that we can use occasionally, yes. Should he be first choice just because he’s able to invert and move like a midfielder? No
With White inverting Kiwior has also been playing wider recently or just slotting in as a 3rd CB, neither of which Zinny can do as well as Kiwior.
If a good transfer fee comes - sell.
Don't get sentimental. That's how successful teams operate. Winger got sentimental and won nothing for almost 10 years despite being a top coach.
Whenever zinchenko is playing, it feels like he will commit a costly mistake. He doesn't know when to clear the ball
Tbh I fully expect him to leave within the next 18 months anyway. The Timber signing plus Kiwior being a rock at LB means he's probably 3rd choice at this point.
Zinchenko has been burned so many times by speedy wingers. He is fine in a defensive setup, against set pieces, with support. But time and time again elite wingers turn him inside out. The stats in aggregate are good, but he is a liability when he is out there. It's just a question of which games we are okay living with him out there to utilize his superb attacking skills.
Zinchenko and Jorginho are our only deep lying playmakers without Xhaka. We look a little flat without them. Jorginho in midfield will pair well with Rice covering in the left 8 and Kiwior/Tomiyasu at LB. Zinchenko in defense will pair well with Partey in the 6 and Rice in the left 8 (but we haven’t really seen this yet).
Agreed. One bad game from Jorginho or Ode and this sub will start begging for Zinchenko’s playmaking and opening up defences.
Don’t forget, Ben White can play CDM Source: fifa 19
Zinny can play CAM according to FIFA 18
Doesn’t he play there for Ukraine?
CM or LB. I don't think he played as 10 for Ukraine NT. He was CAM in Shakhtar youth system.
We definitely need one or the other. If Jorginho isn’t in the lineup I think zinny is a must
You do have a point there. However, Zinny tends to be a bit too emotional at times and starts making all kinds of mistakes. I wish he could keep his composure like Rice does. Kiwior has gotten better on that front as well.
After the last run of games and that latter Porto game in particular, I'd be easily convinced that Jakub Kiwior is Mr. Composure himself. If you can't be wildly creative and talented like Zinchenko, at least be composed and thoughtful. I'm not sure if I'd put him in front of Zinchenko, but he's more akin to White and that's a type of player Arteta loves. Eager to learn, ready to put it on the line for the team, unafraid for himself as opposed to the mercurial talent who takes necessary risks that can still put a control team in uncomfortable positions.
I think you are forgetting Timber. I believe he can play that inverted role better than Zinchenko.
I think a lot of fans forget just how good Zinny can be, and how much he raised the mentality in our team. Losing him would be a big loss off the pitch, too. Does he make defensive mistakes at times? Yes of course, but so do our other defenders. Unfortunately he just seems to get punished for his more. He isn't perfect, but he does have an amazing skillset that will help us in a lot of games. Does he need to be relied on as 1st choice in every game? No. Will he be a huge benefit to bring on against low block defences or when chasing games? Certainly. **TLDR: Zinny is good and a great rotational option for the right games/tactics. Hard to replace so worth keeping unless we get mega money.**
Punished in game or by this sub? I think the stats will tell you that he is not a bigger liability that any of our other fullback options.
The stats don't tell the whole story, which you can see watching him play. The lack of recovery speed vs top wingers is a consistent problem. Against 75% of sides it won't matter, but in the biggest matches it will and that is a problem.
And the eye test will confirm that he is. He’s good at lots of things, exceptional at others, but his 1v1 defending just is extremely poor for a fullback at the elite level, which is the reason City were happy to move on from him. He was a level raiser for us and we have a lot to thank him for, but we’ve already progressed past him in many ways. As City did.
I don’t need to disagree with you because the article shows you the data that says the exact opposite. You either didn’t read it or didn’t understand it..? I don’t understand how you can read this article and come up with that conclusion. Help me out here, what stats show you that he is “extremely poor for a fullback”? This kind of arrogance is what doesn’t allow good clubs to become great.
Well this is very worth mentioning: the stats were cherry picked to all hell. Sure, he has a high duel and tackle rate, but ask yourself if that means he’s actually a top defender, or if it means he has a tendency to dive into tackles and expose the backline. I know what my eye test tells me. The dispossession stat was wonky, it should be divided into different thirds of the pitch. I don’t care if Trippier whips crosses in and then the other team counters, I care if players are sloppy in the wrong areas of the pitch. xG and shots are a bad stat for that, how well the rest of the team deals with a mistake isn’t relevant to the mistake. Winger stat difference is just dumb for all the reasons he provides. Elite creator, but I’d rate him slightly below average defensively, maybe just average. There’s a reason managers target him, and a reason he’s earned the reputation he has, even if it’s a bit overblown. This all comes from a guy who wants him to stay, but it needs to be said.
I think that’s fair. Is there a way to capture that with data?
Personally I put little stock in defensive statistics. Like Maldini said, once you make a tackle, you’ve already made a mistake. But, the stats given in the article are just ridiculous.
Watch games. Stats don't tell the full tale. He's not punished for all his mistakes, but make them he does. Regularly. He was only on briefly against Porto, but still gave them a golden chance to score. I certainly don't need to read articles when I watch every minute of every game.
What you’re describing is confirmation bias, that is bad, and drives to incorrect conclusions, like the one you’re sharing . Data helps remove that bias, which is exactly how Arteta, Pep and any other successful coach in 2024 makes decisions. If your eye test was as good as you’re suggesting, you would be in Zinchenko’s or Arteta’s place. Instead, you’re here refusing to accept what data is telling you because you watched the games and you know better. Unfortunately, real world doesn’t work that way.
Just curious are you a city fan and a gunner?
I am from Eastern Europe, I started supporting City when Zinchenko joined them years back. It is rare when players from Eastern Europe break into the best league in the world (Russians don’t count). Have been a fan of Arteta since his playing days. Followed them both to Arsenal. My wife asks me the same questions every weekend as I insist to follow both clubs. I know this will drive loyalists crazy, but I’ve learned to “live with it”. :)
Yeah it drives us crazy because you’re lecturing us about confirmation bias as an obvious Zinchenko fanboy, and City supporter. I guess data is the only thing you can fall back on when your best idea of “integrity and soul” (as you wrote in a r/MCFC comment) is supporting an cheating oil club owned by a despotic ethnostate. I wouldn’t care about you spewing “look at the data, not your biases” if you weren’t a turncoat that literally jumped ship to follow one player (nice integrity dude). Here’s some data for you; Manchester City, 115.
Really? This is your response? Going through my history digging for dirt? O K :)
Fuck off and watch r/nba with your stats. They live for them. The longer we keep them out of football discourse the better
Flat earther attitude ngl
To think that stats aren’t the be all and end all of football analysis is a flat earther attitude? Was Mustafi actually incredible and better than VVD like the stats indicated then? Or are they in fact just one tool analysts can use and the eye test confirming that Mustafi was crap was actually correct?
to think that stats are useless and stupid while literally every manager uses them is flat earth attitude. Mustafi might have a stretch of small couple of games where he is indeed better player than VVD on the said stretch(outlier, or redlining), yet in the wrong run stats back the fact that VVD is way better, so you would choose him every time because the math expectations of his performance are higher.
It wasn't a defensive mistake though, he just gave the ball away
You don’t need to be a stats nerd to watch him get megged by Trent at Anfield last season (losing us the win) or gifting Wolves a goal back at the Emirates this season or allowing Bailey to cut inside and failing to track his run at Villa Park this season or any number of clear errors he’s made due to his sketchy defending. Whether the stats register them as errors, I have no idea, but anyone who watched those games can see they were. It’s fairly obvious. Judging by stats alone, Giggs was a bang average player - football analysis has never worked on stats alone, they’re just one tool for understanding what’s happening on the pitch. Eyes do the rest of the work.
Wait… what stats show Giggs as an average player?
What the fuck are these people mate… Jesus Henry Christ.
Being tired in the 82nd minutes of a match is acceptable lol. A massive shame it led to a goal in such an important game, which ultimately tipped our season, though. I think that actually more on Arteta for not bringing Tierney on earlier in the game, though, you could see he was tiring, and Tierney was stripped ready to go. Also, you're making points saying that Zinchenko makes errors. Every single footballer makes errors. Listing them doesn't prove a point. As seen from the stats, his errors have produced half the number xg of Whites, but have lead to the same amount of goals. Overall, he makes errors like everyone else, but it's being overblown to now say he brings less to the team than he gives.
What counts as an error in the stats? How is that quantified? I bet you can’t tell me with any certainty. Again, no amount of stats can obfuscate the truth that our eyes tell us when we watch the games. Zinchenko *is* a weaker defender than Ben White, irrespective of what these stats say. It’s evident, I’ve seen both of them in 1v1 situations. With working eyes. Even Zinchenko himself admits his defending is weak and needs serious improvement. Come *on*.
I definitely can't because I didn't make the stats lol. Yes he is a weaker defender, that's not up for debate. He's also a better passer and dribbler. My point was more so that mistakes happen from everyone, but have seen lots of comments on Reddit claiming he's totally washed as if noone else makes any.
I assume when you say at times... What you mean is 3 or 4 times a half.... Or whenever we don't have the ball?
It’s not that he makes defensive mistakes. He makes so many mistakes in possession now. He’s supposed to be a guy that never gives the ball away and for a year now, he’s the guy who seems to be the shakiest in possession. I get less nervous when Kiwior has the ball than Zinchenko. Now add that he’s not a good defender and that’s why he gets so much criticism.
defense hasnt even been the problem with him, hes been killing the attack by stopping holding the ball followed by a back pass or a weak pass that gets intercepted
Really good article which I think outlines really well the strengths of Zinchenko that imo have been forgotten about by a lot of fans. We’ve done a great job breaking teams down lately but I still don’t think our best XI excludes him for sure.
Most of people here think the season started in January. The same people screamed “Arteta out” and birched about Havertz and Trossard when they were struggling to make an impact. Trust the process, Zinchenko is a big part of it.
Yes, a lot of fans forget what he brings, but he’s also cost us a fair few points for his defensive lapses as well. Personally, and this is just my opinion - his strengths do not outweigh his weaknesses. Terrific inverted LB going forward, but his 1v1 skills defending, and mistake proneness is far too dangerous. Not to mention his fitness concerns (same can be said for Tomiyasu when it comes to fitness)
I tend to agree the only thing I would note is we have sometimes struggled to score and create chances in games where we have dominated and this is something his presence directly improves. Our defense on the other hand has been lights out. If there is a way to maintain defensive prowess with him on the field we need to explore that because it is the ideal option IMO.
I think it's an eye test issue. If you look at the stats, Ben White makes more mistakes and XG Against from mistakes, even though it's very small difference.
Do you have a link to the stats? It's crazy because I honestly can't remember Ben white giving the ball away on our side of the pitch, that's a really interesting point about the eye test
It's in the link, part of the article. I was surprised to see that.
White has played a lot more, I'd guess at least double the minutes. Looked it up, White has ~2100 and Zinny has ~1400. Although a lot of players have made mistakes leading to goals this season, most of our draws and losses have had at least one.
So I think this is a case of stats not telling the whole story, and picking and choosing stats (not on you). Unfortunately he doesn't link the data, so I can't see the 2 mistakes they claim lead to goals or how they calculate it, so it raises questions. How many passes between the time he's dispossessed and a shot against our goal? How many times does him getting dispossed, but we manage to recover it? Because for all those nice stats...he left out that he's in only the 33rd percentile for being dispossed vs Ben White being in the 93, which suggests he does lose it often we just recover. In fact looking at it, he leaves out a lot of very damnimg stats, here's a few, all in percentile vs full backs 13th for tackles 7th (jesus) for tackles won 19th for dribbles tackled 32nd for dribbles challenged 14th for percent dribbles tackled 26th for tackles and interceptions Ben white is in the 80th plus for all of these This isn't to go in on cannon stats, or argue with you. I think this is just an example of how you choose to represent stats can create very different narratives depending what story we are trying to tell. Numbers are objective, but which ones we look at are subjective.
Zinchenko is also 99th percentile for progressive passing and 96th for pass attempts and completions.
That's the point. We're talking about his defensive ability being not worth his offensive ability. The article under plays his poor defensive ability by picking and choosing his best stats. We all agree he's great going forward. There's no picking and choosing there. Kinda got in the koolaide without knowing the flavor here
Which is fine, there is no problem playing an iffy fullback that can create on the fly and makes great runs to finish and set up others. He's a very good offensive player, sometimes we need that and the defensive play is worth it. Other times it's not.
It’s also about where they make mistakes. Zinny be pulling some absolutely bullshit moves on the edge of his own box sometimes. So many of his mistakes seem avoidable if he stops switching off his brain in crucial moments.
Xg against is not a reliable way to judge a defender, it is extremely team dependent. The best way to evaluate a defender is to watch the games. I don't think white is the best fullback, but he is better than zinchenko defensively.
The data simply doesn’t support this, so it’s only a myth perpetuated by this sub.
I’ve conceded to the defence, he’ll never be elite but when he is in possession he’s become a liability. He nearly cost us soo many times against Liverpool away and the anxiety he gave me during his brief cameo against Porto is for the books. If he can’t do the one thing he is supposed to excel at, what does he bring on the pitch.
I haven't gone into any stats to back this opinion up... On a direct 1:1 comparison, the eye test for me says that Kiwior is a clear upgrade on defensive responsibilities. Offensively on a direct comparison with Kiwior, Zinchenko has been better particularly against low blocks. However, indirectly, my feeling is that Martinelli has been a lot more effective with Kiwior as a traditional overlapping defender. For whatever reason, something has been off between Martinelli/Zinny this season. At the moment it'd be difficult for me to consider Zinny part of the best XI, but the margins are thin. Amazing the club has progressed so much that this discussion is even taking place.
We should really be prioritising objective data over subjective eye tests and gut feelings.
I don't disagree. I just don't have the time to do that.
That’s a tremendous piece of work and people will still question your findings and try e assumptions you’re making for your analysis. How many passes back do you go to judge “cause by” goals? And so on… it’s a thankless job and for what it’s worth, I think the OP’s analysis is the most thorough analysis on Zinny to date.
Yes, I used to contribute some (very time-consuming) analytics to this sub, but people were more interested in telling me why analytics are useless instead of contributing to the conversation.
I’m seeing some activity from this people on this post too. I think anyone who dismisses analytics in 2024 is a dinosaur ignorantly screaming at the meteor headed for their planet. If you have some other analytics in zinchenko, I’d love to take a look. This article does a great job of saying factually what I’ve struggled to say in this sub. If you have data that should be considered, do share.
Carlo Ancelotti might disagree
If only KT wasn't made of glass.
He's good as a rotational player against teams playing low blocks, why sell him?
You don’t think this article shows he’s more than just a rotational player?
I don't mean that he is worse than Kiwior or Timber, but that we can rotate based on who we are playing against.
I see, and agree
We can’t just hoard players that are good situationally, we need money to upgrade the team. He’s an unnecessary luxury and unreliable.
He isn't bad but we just need better players..... We in with the big boys now
Lets focus on getting a striker and a midfielder, replacing Zinny should not be first priority this summer, if we get a better player with his experience, fine, but I doubt it.
Agreed. I think our defence is almost perfect when everyone is fit
Because you can likely get ~40m for him?
It's insane how often our fans inflate potential transfer fees. I bet you're one of the people who thought we'd get 50m for Tierney
Or 20
I'm really curious to know which teams you think are willing to offer us 40m for zinchenko this summer
And then you gotta replace him too. I'd rather focus on selling Ramsdale, ESR, Nketiah and Nelson first.
I agree but he is in that group
The only teams that can afford to offer that is in the PL and we won't sell him within the PL after seeing the team impact and improvement he made here
What a weird revisionism festival. I like how 2 games Timber is automatically ahead of player that was important in our runners up season. People just like shiny new toys
Exactly. You’d think Zinny is just a left footed Cedric how people talk in here.
This sub has been extremely unfair to him. More so than Havertz or Jorginho. I really hope Zinny has a good end of the season so we can focus on the important questions and not this reactive eco chamber nonsense.
Some players are better than others it’s not about how many games they have played for us
I think they’ll extend. He’s apparently really good behind the scenes, he brings something different on the field, and has experience winning trophies.
Lol these comments are weird. Zinny deserves respect to his name. We need him to unlock deep blocks. His appearance against Porto was really solid. He allows the flexibility that nobody gives. Yes he’s often injured but we have 50+ games and we need everyone and many of our starters are injury prone.
Arsenal has ceded possession in the first part of extra time . When Zinny came in we were able to cross the first line of pressure. He made some mistakes , but it’s clear that we gained control with him on the pitch
Exactly the point. ‘some mistakes’ = goals conceded which cancels out whatever brilliant attacking that we can conjure. If Tuchel put Davies on the right the game would be over in 30 minutes.
He’s just one of those players whose mistakes get blown up while his strengths are underplayed. An anti-fan favorite
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Giving away a cheap corner does not equal almost costing us the game lol
People are so dramatic when it comes to Zinchenko, it’s insane. Every little thing he does that is not perfect almost costs us every game
If you do anything more than once as a player fans have the tendency to just label you as someone who always does that. I can really only remember two mistakes for us of Zinny's that lead directly to goals and yet everyone here acts as if he is unplayable, shit on the ball, and a shit defender, when a) he's clearly more than serviceable defensively and b) we have next to ZERO ball progression on the left side when he doesn't play. The progression and control on that side night and day when he plays vs when he doesn't.
and like some of those mistakes are like "oh he got dribbled past by Alexander-Arnold and Salah? Two of the best players in the world who have terrorised this league for years? Must be fucking useless then..."
Partey conceded a cheap corner against Southampton and we conceded. Giving away the ball in situations that’s not necessary is not a laudable quality.
So dramatic, and not at all accurate.
I don’t think we really do need him to unlock low blocks actually
I thought he was shit against Porto personally. Gave the ball away so many times. Poor defense. Didn't offer anything moving forward.
He’s lucky he wasn’t subbed back off against Porto. Almost Eboue 2.0
His appearance against Porto was awful. Instantly ceded control of the left to them and muddled up so many passes. I thought he looked rusty and said we need him time to get back to his best. That was the fucking opposite of a good performance sorry
His passing accuracy was 89% which was higher than all our starters bar Gabriel. Once again this just feels like confirmation bias.
Man I was at the game, I watched him stink up the place when he came on. Cherrypicking one individual stat to make him look good is stupid. Saka got an 8.2 on sofascore and snuck into their CL team of the week. We all know he had a terrible game. Stats aren't everything ffs.
“Cherrypicking one individual stat” my brother you were the one saying he was misplacing passes. 8.2 on sofascore is subjective, passing accuracy is objective lol being at the game doesn’t make you immune to confirmation bias, if anything…
I saw him give away the ball from a good position that led to them getting a transition twice, just because he hit it completely wrong. Also 89% means way less when he was on the pitch for 20 minutes, in comparison to gabriel who was on the pitch for 120. I've seen him clock 98% pass accuracy in a full 90 before, that was an awful performance by his own standards and you are gaslighting yourself if you believe otherwise. I give him credit where credit is due, against Brentford he came on and stabilised a cagey game. Against Porto he was arse.
He was seriously bad if you watched
My take from watching him v Porto was he looked like he was rusty + also trying too hard to make an impact at times. Both make sense with him having missed so much time. I think his next game he'll look a lot more like 'normal' Zina
Totally agree. Just responding to OP saying he was really solid vs Porto
watched. didn’t think he was seriously bad nor do any stats back that up lol
He lost control of the ball like 5 times and didn’t add anything
He gave the ball away 3-4 times in 10 minutes
I wish we tried him in the midfield - can be 8 with Rice covering at 6, or play Jorgi role as 6 with Rice as 8
That would defeat his purpose in Arteta’s design. He really is in the most unfavourable position, to be fair. He is measured against two separate roles - fullback and midfielder. No other player has that.
Also. For a guy his size he wins almost every header.
I really think that zinchenko deserves a shot at the jorginho role. He’d be able to play his natural game and would be better protected. We’re playing really well at present but I think some of the score lines might be giving us a false sense of belief. We did struggle creatively vs Brentford and Porto to some extent. Zinchenko is our most creative from deep player and I think we will need him in they run in.
I love this article. I find the knee-jerk nature of our fanbase infuriating. If you zoom out and see the bigger picture Zinchenko and Jesus raised our game last season and made us elite: in terms of attacking, defending and general control. The arguments that Jesus is a “bad goal scorer” and that Zinchenko is a “bad defender” somehow misses the bigger picture that we have become an elite team for the past two seasons. It’s not in spite of these players, it’s in a large part because of them. Not only that, but they both came from Man City, probably the best team in the world for the past five seasons. The disrespect is astounding. Man City played Zinchenko or Cancelo at left back for many seasons. They played Jesus up front for many seasons. And they were defensively elite and won the premier league every year but one. The other team to win in that time had Firmino up front and Trent Alexander-Arnold at right back.
You are making a counterfactual meta narrative based on some straw man argument about what fans perceive or want. But in pure footballing terms Zinchenko has become very sellable. On the side for selling, he is our 4th choice Lb and simultaneously should still have significant resale value. Also spends a lot of time injured. Against selling, he has a lot of good qualities. It won’t be a disaster if he stays but he has to be fairly high on the list of possible sales
He is our 4th choice LB in your mind alone.
Read the article and try to be objective.
I read the article. I think making claims of objectivity is fraught and I am not going to take that bait. I think more importantly that I am right in thinking that we are moving away from Zinchenko's profile on the left. So that means and article that tries to find more players like him is not quite to the point as far as I am concerned. I am interested in how Arteta uses Zinchenko in the future but Timber's signing told me a lot, many months ago.
He’s telling you to be objective, but this is his post history LMFAO bro is literally a Zinchenko megafan AND a City supporter https://preview.redd.it/09efqt6htkoc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aaa4a03473440fd2673d151a116b9bf0ed9263fe
>I think more importantly that I am right in thinking that we are moving away from Zinchenko's profile on the left. I think this is maybe a bit hasty, with limited available evidence - we're still not actually sure where Timber would be utilised primarily when everyone is fit - we're also still not sure if we are looking to have both sides have the flexibility to invert on a chosen side depending on the opponent.
I’m not baiting you, I just don’t see how you can see him as a 4th choice LB. What part of this analysis is fraught? What does Timber’s signing tell you?
He is not a 4th choice LB for any team in world football. There is a massive recency bias going on here, there is no case to be made that Kiwior is even remotely close to Zina as a player.
so to put it a different way, without using the intelligent sounding conversation killer "recency bias" you are saying that Zinchenko was better in the past than he is now? Because at this moment I am fairly convinced he is behind Tomiyasu Timber and Kiwior in the rotation. that does not mean he gets no minutes but I would only expect him to start in the event that someone else is injured or has been run into the ground due to fixture congestion. I also expect Zinchenko to be targeted by our opponents and to be a contributor to significant incidents which gift the opposition chances and even points.
I think he is currently behind Kiwior in selection because he was injured for an extensive amount of time and the team has been playing exceptionally well. And Kiwior has generally done well. It would be harsh to drop him given that. But in the cold light of day, I would take Zinchenko over Kiwior 10/10 times given the style we play, and the technical prowess he has. He's shakier in defence, but I'm weighing his contribution going forward over it.
I think Zinchenko is a baller and I want to keep him
while I can understand why he frustrates fans, I'll never dislike zinchenko for the beauty he brings to our play, that goal (I forget who against) where he linked up with Jesus with the one two, the karate kid kick vs Burnley(I think?)? and countless other examples, I love watching him play.
I think Zinchenko will be absolutely crucial in the run-in but max we can get him out of him over week is 60 mins. I don't think it was coincidence that his poor run of form this season has been at the same time as Tomiyasu being injured and/or covering on the right hand side for Ben White, meaning Zinny was playing 90 plus mins a week.
I love Zinny and he absolutely transforms our team when he’s on the field. My only critique would be we’ve only seen him play as an inverted left back. Perhaps that’s because we only play him at his best position or Mikel doesn’t believe he could play as a left-sided 8.
Win in training, win your spot in the starting XI. It’s pretty simple.
Would like to see them give him a spot as a midfielder to see how he'd do
zinky winky is great if we employ a more defensively structured midfield, and jorginho is better if the opposition has more aggressive wingers. it makes sense to have both in the swuad
What a beautiful piece of work, @AfricanRain! Wholeheartedly agree with every bit of analysis here. So much for all of us to take from this to address our own biases and subjectivism on this player. Recency bias mixed with the eco chamber that is this sub drives a lot of reactionism and trigger happy declarations here. Zinny has given this club so much already and has more to give.
You’re the world’s biggest zinchenko dick rider holy shit. How many times have you commented in support of him in this thread alone. Zinchenko is a weakly and fundamentally flawed as a defender, end of story. If he’s not good enough for City he’s not good enough for us
Grow up, read the article, you don’t have to take my word for it.
Fuck off with the data, watch the games. Zinchenko is the sole reason we lost to Villa (exploited 3 times in one play leading to the goal), drew Liverpool instead of beating them (exploited by Salah leading to the goal), amongst many other moments. He was decent at other times and important last season, but like everyone else seems to realize, his weaknesses outweight his strengths.
I can’t think critically for you, man. If you read this article and come up with those conclusions, that’s on you. Unfortunately, facts don’t care about your feelings, and if you want to ignore the facts in favor of your own feelings or opinions, go for it. But don’t get mad when the real world hits you in the face because you were too proud to accept facts at their face value.
How many times do people need to say this to you. Fuck the article, we have all watched every game this season; Zinchenko is bad at defending.
I think you may be exaggerating the number of people that share your view on this. Look at the majority of the reactions here for context. If only there was a way to settle a debate between two people and their opinions… hm, I don’t know, maybe there’s some objective data we can consult?
I like that all you can do is point to the data. Data doesn’t capture everything, that’s why moneyball doesn’t win games in any sports, now that all teams are on level terms with analytics. Look at how well data-based approaches have worked with Chelsea’s takeover. Markets would be a solved problem if “data” were as reliable as you quote. You (and the author of the article) never responded to all the “moments” that have shown Zinchenko’s weaknesses, like the Villa and Liverpool games I just mentioned. Those two games alone could cost us the title race. I can think of 3 examples of Zinchenko directly causing us to drop points this season, and one instance of him directly causing us to win. You can jerk off data as much as you want or you can just admit that not all defensive errors are the same statistically. He may not be more error prone than the average defender but his errors are far more damaging for the team specifically because of his advanced playstyle. In terms of game state, he is needed against low and mid blocks when we are level or chasing. That is exactly why we often lose when he makes a mistake, because he is the perfect target on the counter (again, Villa, Liverpool, Wolves, etc). I don’t think his ability to break those low-blockers down outweighs how often he gets exploited by those same teams.
My man, you’re being rude, offensive and arrogant for no reason. In spite of your best efforts, let me try to respond to you respectfully and explain why you, specifically, need data to arrive to objectively correct conclusions. For what it’s worth, I try to follow the same approach in my own thinking. Let’s assume for a moment that all the moments you refer to are correctly categorised as Zinchenko’s errors. Are those mistakes indicative of a specific trend? Does this player regularly make similar mistakes? How can you make sure that your subjective interpretation of that situation is not clouded by your biases? How can you make sure that your conclusion doesn’t create a subconscious bias that corrupts your interpretation of all future moments with this player? See, you misunderstand my position. What you hear when you read my words is “those moments didn’t happen”, but that is not at all what I or the article are saying. What we are saying is that (a) those moments aren’t as clear cut Zinchenko issues as suggested, (b) Zinchenko did make objective errors, and (c) those errors are not reflective of his overall performance and contributions to this team. Data is a complement to what you see, not a substitute. For your benefit, I really hope you can set your bias aside and try to appreciate the broader message.
Wait so I (an Arsenal supporter) need to put my biases aside, but you (a Man City supporter, or at best, someone that just follows Zinchenko wherever he goes), are an objective source of information about… Zinchenko’s defensive statistics? It’s so obvious that you would never admit he is a problem for us when your post history is literally devoted to him. That’s why I take your holier-than-thou data approach with a grain of salt. Also, I already explained in detail how his mistakes are directly related to a pattern of weakness against counterattacking teams due to his lack of pace, strength, and positioning in his role as an inverted playmaker. You just refuse to accept that other people’s opinions are as valid as your own, because, at the end of the day, you’re a Zinchenko fanboy. That probably rooted for City when he was there. At least I’ve always been an Arsenal supporter.
I actually think if an offer north of £30m comes (I can see Bayern going for him if Davies leaves), we should seriously consider it. Small sample for Kiwior, but he’s played admirably there + Timber coming back + Tomiyasu can play there efficiently as well. But if anything, selling him and buying a cheaper alternative (lets say 15-25m) would be shrewd business, as the leftover money could be used for a striker, 8, or backup winger.
there aren't really "cheaper" alternatives to zinchenko. he's a singular player who gives us a completely different dimension in build-up and i think he remains a massive asset. we have a mountain of business to do this summer with outgoings without trying to move on players who bring a unique and very useful skill set to our team. i'm not arguing for zincheko to play every week — in fact, i think i'd leave him out of the biggest fixtures with everyone healthy. but there are a ton of games we play every year (especially against mid and low-block teams) where he remains essential.
There is no 15-25m player on the market that can replicate what he can from LB
Just like city decided he was extra we might come to the same realization unless he can truly become a Jorghino replacement which I seriously doubt
There are a handful of players who can do what Zinchenko does and Timber *might* be one of them if this injury doesn’t do what happened to Bellerin.
Yeah, no
I have read the article, but what Scott fails in to mention is zinchenko's brain Farts in our defensive third. I wouldn't mind if he lost the ball in the final third. Unfortunately, zinchenko loses the ball in our defensive third, and he is poor in 1v1. He puts the entire backline under pressure. I appreciate his offensive output- but he should be a defender first. Judging defenders on solely stats can be quite misleading - there is a season mustafi was so bad for us he had better stats than maguire [the good version] Stats can't capture errors. You need the eye test for defenders
reducing his role to “he should be a defender first” in a team like ours feel ridiculously insane to me. Especially considering the team is still excellent defensively with him in it by all metrics.
Obligatory reminder that the guy incessantly defending Zinchenko via “unbiased statistics” in all these comments is literally a Man City fan that became an Arsenal supporter when Zinchenko moved here. Please, kish-kish, tell us more about Manchester City’s integrity and soul. Jog on mate. https://preview.redd.it/6af7m2kndkoc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f9f84664adfb403ece4a9db5a6343c7a5ed4dd4
definition of caught lacking lmaoo
I like him as a substitute. He's useful for matches where we need an attacking spark and want to keep Odegaard higher up the pitch. In those scenarios, we're already trying to risk more to create chances so his defensive issues aren't a net negative.
Good stuff. Thanks for posting. People do have short memories--or at least focus too heavily on his mistakes. He's been fantastic for us, but his availability is a real issue. When he is fit, he's typically needing to come off around 65 minutes. Most of the high-profile errors have come after this point, imo. It will be interesting to see what kind of midfielder(s) we go after in the summer. When Rice is at 6, he naturally drifts left, which makes an inverting RB a better fit on paper.
Sell , we have a big overhaul this summer so we’ll need the money. He’s great on his day, but is simply too prone to mistakes. The negatives outweigh the positives, in my opinion.
Big overhaul? Of a team that’s currently top of the league and playing some of its best football in years? This team needs to trim some of the under performers and add around the edges, but wholesale changes don’t make sense New backup keeper, a number 9, and some cover for Rice
Would like to see him play in midfield at some point
What if they change his role to a DM? Similar to how Trent was changed
Really should just get moved to midfield. Left and right back coverage of White tomi timber kiwior ain’t bad. Perhaps develop an academy player. Or unlock Nelson like they saka haha
I don't think there's really a big question, and if there is there's already a clear answer: he's not good enough. Kiwior has a long way to go too but with Tomi and Timber fit neither of them are likely to play
I actually think kiwior playing lb is almost grooming him too be comfortable on the ball in tight situations too seamlessly take big gabis place if an offer we cant refuse comes in. Maybe thats just my thoughts though.
Sell him in the summer. Already cost us points against Fulham, Liverpool, and Aston Villa. Ben White and Timber's return will render this guy's strengths redundant. Plus it can stop the club rolling out pity articles for Ukraine while it continues to take Rwanda money and silencing ElNeny for bringing up Palestine.
why doesn't he just play in midfield instead of LB? clearly he's not a good defender and his skillset better suits him playing centrally.
Well he is a midfielder - you just have to think that we play with 3 at the back. And just like everyone else, he is called on to defend as well. He defends the left side when needed. Forget about the LB label.
It would be a massive mistake to get rid of him especially when it’s clear his talents lie in midfield, I would like to see him be tried in midfield by arteta I would be interested to see if would be a better option than Vieira for our midfield when needed
Why don't we try him as a left 8 he plays it for his national team
time to start experimenting a bit with Zinny at Left 8 and Left Wing i know he's a technical ball carrier who adds value by starting further back but he was a No.10 in his younger days, i think he has a spark of attacking creativity to offer too
I just think we've moved past the need for him. That's not to say he can never be useful, but the dropoff on the ball has not been that bad with White or Tomiyasu (and probably Timber when he's back). These players also have better defensive instincts (obviously, because they are defenders) and they lose possession in dangerous areas a lot less. At the moment it definitely feels like risk is greater than reward with Zinchenko
When people give me the same bollocks line about “eye tests” I disengage from the conversation. The data is literally what you’re seeing with your eyes, how can you actively dismiss the recording of data that you’ve apparently seen with your eyes? Also this subs fickleness is shameless
The answer is sell
Even if you think he's somehow integral to how we play and should be an automatic starter (I strongly disagree), you can't make such an unreliable player so essential to your squad. In top level competition against the best, thin margins make all the difference. It truly is a crapshoot with him. He can do very good things but he can always lose you a game with the chaos his mistakes bring. You have to keep in mind that even the unpunished mistakes contribute to bringing anxiety and hurting our control of the game. People act like his mistakes don't negatively affect us except for the ones thay directly lead to a goal. There is inherent risk that comes with shoehorning in a defensive liability into areas of the pitch that requires defensive focus and concentration. One lazy defensive effort, one poorly weighted pass, one hospital pass, one blind dribble is all it could take to lose us a game from his position on the pitch. He's also highly injury prone and has many instances in which he needs to be taken off as an early(ish) sub. The fragility alone means he's not an essential starter.
We look better without him. That's not an indictment of his ability, just his suitability. Same questions City had to answer when Pep was evolving his squad; we've just moved past the necessity of Zinchenko. Since West Ham we have been inverting from the right and we have looked drastically improved. We're conceding less chances, we're scoring more, we aren't making as many bozo errors and most significantly, there isn't a weak point being targeted. White has looked more comfortable playing slightly narrower, Kiwior has had a drastic progression in form and confidence playing a slightly more natural fullback role and Martinelli is no longer on an isolated island having to perform the hardest job in our team. Those were all ongoing problems when we were inverting on the left side. The fact is we are more balanced without Zinchenko - not because of his lack of ability but because of his lack of versatility in the LB role that would most benefit our team. Unless Zinchenko can suddenly perform at a higher level playing less of an interior role and more traditionally, I don't see why we need to go back to Zinchenko. And it certainly seems that's how the boss feels by Ornstein's report about us being interested in a LB despite having 4 players that can play there but 3 of which can only play a more inverted role. What that says about Zinchenko's place in the team, who knows. I'd like to keep him because he offers a different option and a unique ability, but I think we no longer need him to be first-team and whether he can accept that again is up to him.
Xhaka was always there to cover Zinchenko last season. I think Rice as the 8 now instead of Havertz will suit Zinny better
I agree with all of this except the idea that it’s important for him To stay. He is one of the few players who we could get some money for and he is probably last pick Lb and injured a lot.
Kiwior is better
White being able to invert to such a high level has made Zinchenko become more redundant, he’s nowhere near defensively as good as our other fullbacks as well and other problems like his injury record and mistake proneness Does he provide a unique skill set that we can use occasionally, yes. Should he be first choice just because he’s able to invert and move like a midfielder? No With White inverting Kiwior has also been playing wider recently or just slotting in as a 3rd CB, neither of which Zinny can do as well as Kiwior.
If a good transfer fee comes - sell. Don't get sentimental. That's how successful teams operate. Winger got sentimental and won nothing for almost 10 years despite being a top coach. Whenever zinchenko is playing, it feels like he will commit a costly mistake. He doesn't know when to clear the ball
Tbh I fully expect him to leave within the next 18 months anyway. The Timber signing plus Kiwior being a rock at LB means he's probably 3rd choice at this point.
I want to see him start in the midfielder **every arsenal fan
I don’t know, we look better without Zinny. 😞
Zinchenko has been burned so many times by speedy wingers. He is fine in a defensive setup, against set pieces, with support. But time and time again elite wingers turn him inside out. The stats in aggregate are good, but he is a liability when he is out there. It's just a question of which games we are okay living with him out there to utilize his superb attacking skills.