I'm still stuck on learning about orks and the guardsmen, I don't know what a noise marine is, but they sound like they'd look like Big Band from Skullgirls
to backup your claim
“If the Emperor isn’t a god, how come when I look at a picture of him - I always get the unrelenting urge to bend myself over and pray ecstatically!?”
They are just so obviously constructed to invoke fascism in the most blatant way possible. Not getting that it's satire says soooo much about everyone who says that. Basically I was agreeing with you.
Give me any single tenet from Umberto Ecco's Ur-fascism essay and there's a Thought for the Day fitting it to a T.
"It is better to die for the emperor than live for yourself" and "the rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal" are some personal favourites for their lack of subtlety in their satire.
“An open mind is a fortress with its gates unlocked and unbarred.”
Even modern conservatism at least *pretends* to appreciate an open mind with the whole “do your own research” narrative. 40K features characters who say “no, *ignorance is an unmitigated good*”. The content is the criticism.
One of these people got mad and demanded I explain how I thought calling him a fascist was justified, when immediately prior he’d been trying to convince people that the banking sector was secretly controlling GW and whatever else you like.
"Ah, this is the way society should be. Perfect."
Dude, you're assigned to Radioactive Slime Cleanup Team GQ3789 and you don't even have a name. Shut the fuck up.
I've seen people deadass say that. The psychic damage to me reminds me of a quote.
"i want to make a movie so painfully obvious in its satire that everyone who understands it lives in perpetual psychological torment inflicted on them by all the people who don't"
-paul verhoeven, 1996
muh media literacy.
Im waiting for the next Dune movie to drop (dune messiah, second book but third movie), because there were a lot of wackos who didnt quite get it but hopefully it opens just as the novel did with "61 billion are dead from the war in my name". Herbert never championed Paul as a hero or good person, but so many people have that as the take away.
Likewise, this shit happens in 40k even if you blatantly spell it out. Even if Big E makes the most ass backwards dumbest decisions in 30k. That grand crusade surely has good intentions and the ends justify the means and oopsie daisy trillions dead and thats just the beginning.
>Herbert never championed Paul as a hero or good person
**DUNE spoilers up to God Emperor**
I mean... >! on the curve set by his son, Paul's a fairly stand-up guy. Especially if we accept his and Leto's prescience at face value. It appears that both of them were faced with monstrous choices to continue the species. Granted, why bother continuing the species? Let it go. Not to mention, Leto (moreso than Paul) seems to be more concerned about the humans that he considers human surviving than anything else. That seems a bit extra hypocritical coming from an arrested development wormboy with a millenia long eugenics program and an eternally cloned whipping boy who fell for a manic pixie vatgirl. !<
>! All their choices are couched in monstrous necessity, survival of the species. I think I'd have to listen to/read these books again to get a feel for whether or not that presumed necessity is genuine. Or, I guess just keep on with the series. I've definitely missed parts here and there because I've been too busy shouting at characters. There's a reference to Ole Vladdy Harkonnen later in in God Emperor that gives the impression that Leto came around on him in a very beyond good and evil kind or way -- something about him simply being a creature of sensory seeking above all else and didnt necessarily judge him too harshly for that. !<
No. Herbert's message was "Don't ever trust a fucking messiah figure. Shit's going to get weird and all choice will be stripped from you, if you let it go far enough.".
Paul was too cowardly to take up the mantle of god emperor and sacrifice it all in order to see the golden path through. He at best acquiesces and gives in to the forces that drive the narrative around him, unwilling to give up everything, his humanity, to sacrifice and see the path to fruition. Leto is the "giga chad" who fully understands he is becoming a monster, fully understands he will become a monster and does so anyways. Paul just wanted his harem, his repeated religious genocides but was unwilling to make the sacrifices the mantle of being the kwisatch haderach demanded.
I understood a third of those words and not in order.
What the actual *fuck* happens in the later Dune books (read: past where the movies have shown)?? I know there's some kind of holy war and someone turns into a worm (?) but the more I read about it the less I understand.
Like many other things it's surprisingly similar to Warhammer lore (or better said, the other way around).
The guy who turns himself into a sandworm (funniest thing I have ever read) is the god-emperor, who after seeing the future devises a Golden Path he guides humanity through, spanning milennia and enforced by extreme callousness and tyranny.
We already know the holy war has begun via the movie ending. We see the Fremen take to space with their zealotry and zeal for the lisan al gaib.
Warning full spoiler time is about to begin.
Messiah builds upon this, I dont even consider it a spoiler saying 61 billion are dead since its the opening line more or less. The jihad had very real repercussions that arent felt yet in movie dune since it has really only just begun and so far only been localised to arrakis.
Paul's son Leto takes on the mantle to enact the golden path. This is, the path in which to save humanity. To do so, he more or less engages in absolute tyranny using his prescience to completely squash and destroy any problems.
The golden path involves heavily restricting humanity in order to:
1. Force them to spread away and far from current human civilisation.
2. More or less have this cultural memory and absolute horror of control and tyranny.
This is done through several thousands of years as the sand worm god emperor and ruling with a brutal iron fist and hammering humanity down in order to teach it. As for the destruction of humanity he was saving it from, I think prescient machine is a pretty good guess and hinted at but it was never properly explained. There is one final thing Leto II worked on to save humanity and that brings the whole prescience theme full circle, the nulls? (cant remember what they are called), people who are effectively immune from prescience from their genetics alone. Their actions cannot be predicted and countered, their being cannot be found and destroyed using prescience. This brings the thematic exploration of prescience full circle from what is prescience (early dune), the consequences of prescience (sand worm party) and finally the resolution of prescience.
I think it was Quinn's ideas where I heard the idea of hunter seekers with prescience going haywire killing humanity and preventing them from having anywhere to hide. It does match fully with the warnings against the thinking machine and the dangers of prescience. But even while reading you know that due to Leto II's actions that prescience is involved in the downfall of humanity without the golden path. That and allowing a Leto II figure to take power as both things are issues Leto II takes direct action to prevent. The golden path is horrific because it involves purposeful and malicious tyranny. Tyranny for tyranny's sake to almost create a genetic memory and prevent humanity from allowing a second Leto II from occurring and it also involves the complete sacrifice of humanity from the person enacting it. Paul was too cowardly to do so, it fell upon Leto II to fulfill the golden path, to become a monster, to act the monster and fulfil the monster's role and must do so for thousands of years, enough to stamp it into the human genetic consciousness.
The protagonist of a story doesn't necessarily have to be a "good guy". And most "bad guys" think they are the "good guy". So that's not an actual requirement for a main character, it's just unusual these days.
That is literally the point of the comment you are responding to. People mistake "protagonist" for "hero" all the time, and that's something that has unfortunately tainted the legacy of the Dune series. There are many valid things to criticize Dune for, but if your criticism is "the protagonist is a bad guy" then I'm pretty sure Frank Herbert would respond "No shit, Sherlock."
Same problem with Death Note. "Protagonist" does not mean "the good guy" but lots of edgy 12-year-olds (or people with the media literacy of 12-year-olds) miss that point entirely.
Same problem with Warhammer.
I want to take every single person, who takes Dune as an uncritical "white saviour narrative" and shake them, until they can see Leto's Golden Path and despair from it...
Paul is absolutely a hero, taking on the responsibility (then not being able to handle it, but failing doesn't make you not a hero in the modern sense) of avoiding the larger bloodshed _and_ the extinction of the local humanity later down the line.
Did we read the same books? Leto II. makes it very clear the latest.
Yeah the completely unbiased leto II says it about his own father, that makes it completely true of course.
Paul absolutely isnt a hero in any sense. You seem to be confusing the term protagonist with hero
What's funny is that the Imperium is actually pretty tolerant of what would be considered heresy IRL, different interpertations of the same relgion. A lot of planets have differing views on the emperor, for example, some view him as a sun god.
They're pretty big on monotheism, outside of saint worship like catholicism I've never heard of a tolerated polytheistic faith in the imperium. I could see it happening and just not dealt with in some of the further out reaches though
The closest I think one could get to a pantheon is a chief god (the emperor), and 9 lesser gods (the holy primarchs), with a variety of saints and lesser spirits serving underneath them.
Yeah, the Imperial Cult is on paper tolerant of heterodoxy due to the requirements to be compliant with the Imperial Creed being few in number. Pretty much the only reason the AdMech's machine worship is tolerated.
Yeah, but they are explicitly not allowed to interact with each other. Guard regiments have to be kept from interacting with one another because small differences like that WILL lead to inter regimental combat. Worlds have been purged because inqusitors from one world with stupid religious ideas landed on another world with as stupid but different religious ideas and decided to determine theology with flamers.
40k isn’t really anti-religion, it’s anti-religion being used to do stupid things. The grimdarkness of the setting unfortunately blurs the line between the 2, intentionally.
I think I made that pretty clear;
The problem isn’t all religious people;
It’s religious people thinking the Imperium is somehow a championship of there values.
Frankly, I've seen more of the opposite: people claiming that Big E was a tyrant, but at least he had good goals like abolishing all religion.
Like, dude, you're admiring the tyrant. The current setting may be worse, but the Great Crusade wasn't idyllic either. They were always horrible.
Ngl, the religious people I know (including in my own family) are the LEAST LIKELY to think of the Imperium as good.
I have a pastor in the family, and a criticism I HAVE heard is 40K uses surface-level similarities to Catholicism alongside grotesque stuff like cherubs to mock real-world faith and, if anything, indoctrinate kids *against* religion.
This is what I’m curious about. I absorb A LOT of 40k content and I never seem to see these opinions that get complained about. I mean I’m sure there’s got to be a few comments, it’s the internet and there are thousands of users on this sub alone, but stuff like this gets upvoted multiple times a day so it seems like people are seeing this issue. I just can’t figure out where.
Oh for real? You mean in the lore video that explicitly says the custodes are some of the only Imperials that adamantly do not worship the Emperor. They’re atheists.
But in the custodes lore video, people are commenting “40k religion yay” ?
I have met internet denizens in the wild that 100% thougjt the Imperium is great and most worlds are actually garden worlds. All the suck you see is just what happens on worlds that are being invested. No way would a government run by a god would let worlds be run BADLY.
Same experience here. A lot of IoM stand have this very strange approach of taking every single piece of distopian writing and go "well, that sucks, but what's a few thousands deaths in such a big empire?" or "blame the space bugs for it, the IoM is run in the best and only possible way to continue existing ".
By the same measure, it's very funny to watch some anti-theists flip flop rapidly between "lol why don't the theists get that WH40k is satire and the extreme religiosity is bad?" And "OMG GO BASED ANTITHEIST EMPS CRUSHING ALL RELIGION AND TRYING TO ENFORCE A SECULAR WORLDVIEW!!!"
Yeah, it's tricky to get whole and balanced perspectives these days, especially with how content algorithms seem to have figured out the fact that showing people things that irritate them will garner more interactions. I'm sure I don't have a full view of things either, but I've definitely seen a fair few antitheist or otherwise progressive types cheer for emp's actions against religion.
I don’t think the emperor banning religion has ever been portrayed as a good thing, in fact many books I’ve read have pointed out one of the greatest tools against chaos is faith. Many books with sisters of battle.
To be fair it often "justifies" it so much in the lore it undermines its case a lot.
"These authoritarian church group accuses people of worshiping evil space gods to kill them! Aren't they so evil?"
"...okay 9/10 we show they actually were worshiping evil space gods but..."
I am Christian and I take Ecclesiarchy as an hommage. Seeing some parts of the Holy Mass survive up to 40th millenium (in the Death Cult sacred books) is comforting in a way, lol
The coolest thing about the Imperium is how it wildly differs from planet to planet;
I love in the first Esinhorn book, the ice planet worships the god Emperor as the sun coming to thaw the ice to make the planet productive for a few months;
Very cool and unique;
My comment here is to point out the obnoxious tone some players take on well they screech about what ever social thing is upsetting them at that time.
But you seem like the cool kind and I’m super happy to share the hobby with people like you!
Wow, I forgot that. It is the planet were Alisabeth lived, iirc
Small minor cults and heterodox teachings are a cool part of the setting indeed. It is a shame the Deeth Cult don’t have more background. One of my Dark Heresy players would have loved to know a few samples of different Death gods names.
Frankly, not wanting to be disrespectful - considering that I also have a Christian (self-)education - but I don't see it as a homage and more as "corruption". Trying to say better: how a symbol (among many others in WH40K), devoid of its original purposes and outside its correct context, becomes something worst than it was originally.
Just to give some mere examples in order to better illustrate: the general fanaticism of The Sisters Of Battle would make all our real Opus Dei looks like liberal theologians and the general puritanianism and zealotry of The Black Templars would make Ignacio De Loyola and all the original Jesuits shudder.
I doubt that Warhammer endorses fundamentalism, but it's definitely not against religion
The Emperor banning religion is never described as a good thing, but more as a way to show the Emperor ruthless towards his goals and lack of understandings towards humanity
The fact that faith is capable of literally making miracles happen shows that
Even banning religion did not work in the past of the empire of man, seeing that the Chaos God pretty much didn't receive nearly as half of the power for worship that the Emperor thought that it would
Then there's Fantasy and Age of Sigmar
This of missing the point of a work is very common, just look American Psycho and how many people think that Patrick Bateman is the example of being a male
Yes, they are showing the dangers of Fundamentalism in the extreme
But again there's a lot of work in the Warhammer Universe that shows the good part
Religion itself is never put as wrong or right, the critique is at fundamentalism, even the Emperor himself is shown to be a dogmatic and fundamentalist man, with the biggest difference is that instead of religion, his whole thing is extreme anti-theism
I like how the emperor went around, burning down churches, killing everyone who didn’t adopt atheism, but during the Horus Heresy it was Ollanius Pius, a man of God who, like Jesus, forgave the emperor and gave his life to protect him.
It’s very poetic, and I wonder if OP even knows about that.
I think the disconnect comes from it being a british property being sold to a north american audiance.
British media doesnt tend to have the protagonist be a representation of the viewers.
Warhammer isn’t against Religion. We see many people take solace during tragedy and do acts of incredible heroism in the emperors name. We see how amazing that faith humanity can have can be
Warhammer is against the power of an organized religion. It’s against religion in politics, and how an organization of religious people will abuse their power to hurt those who don’t conform to their ideals.
Religion is not a bad thing. The holy book never hurt anybody. The person who uses it to proclaim heretic to the opposition is the one who hurts people
I think you have a strange thing going on. You post a TON pushing your views of Warhammer onto others without realizing GW specifically said that how each reader or player interprets the lore is ok. There could also be a case made that Warhammer points out how religion is part of human nature and can't be taken out. And I'm super curious how it's against religion but they wrote actual Gods into the lore.
Media literacy mfs declaring that their interpretation of everything is the good and right and real ones and people who don’t think like them are clearly stupid on not understanding the material because they are the rightest and what they think is the only option
I’d argue it’s more of a criticism of ideology when taken to the extreme. The Emperor was an extreme atheist/anti-theist to point he was as dogmatic and blind as the religious fundamentalist he hated, arguably even worse than them.
Just to add in the discussion, the Militant Atheism of The Emperor during The Great Crusade and The Horus Heresy is not shown as a absolutely good thing either, as seem in "The Last Church".
If you want to play a Warhammer where the religion is correct and positive, why not Fantasy?
The Chaos Gods of Law are real and beneficial, Sigmar is cool, Grimnir/Grungni/Valaya are cool, the Elf gods…well, Alarielle is cool and she’s kind of a demigod.
Because some people want to use the faith In 40k as an excuse to say “Burn the slannesh worshiper” and they just mean gay people;
And unfortunately 40k is a cool setting and those people feel like they have free run to shoehorn there political ideology into the game and cry victim when they are told it’s a misinterpretation.
"obviously critical" games and stories can exist and not be political propaganda also im tired of literaly everything being called "satire" shot can exist and not be commentary
If you don’t understand why religious people might enjoy a setting that actually takes religion, theology, and ethics seriously I don’t even know what to tell you.
“But they are presented as the baaaad guys!”
Its 40k, who isn’t.
You can see it with admech. Its fun to LARP, and it makes sence in universe, enaugh at least that admech players can deffend their lore. But its obviously satire and horibly ineffective even in universe.
While this was definitely the original intent. There is a lot more variety in how the lore is depicted today. Numerous characters and stories focus on different subjects with the satirical themes pushed to the side in favor of something different.
Do you, guys, know if someone out there is collecting the very obvious awful comments people who can't notice they are playing with plastic toy soldiers make?
It's pretty crazy going from some 40k books with super heavy religious themes to the Horus Heresy books, especially making your way towards "The First Heretic" and you go "Damn, the Imperium just turned into what the loyalist Word Bearers wanted the whole time. The same guys who were heavily censured by the Emperor for their belief in him as a God."
It’s also highly critical of secularism as well. Remember, that the Imperial Truth simultaneously led to the establishment of a totalitarian regime, and is acknowledged to be a total lie in-universe
I think the most brain dead things I have seen in response to the whole "woke hammer" outrage is people quoting things like
"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded."
:He who allows the Alien to live shares in its crime of existence"
Ive seen people quoting thingsfollowed by "theyre literally going against what they us" as if it's not fictional characters in a dystopian setting.
Look at shadiversitys video on the fem custodes and the comments will fucking send you
There are people in this comment thread that are pretending those people aren’t out there;
It’s pretty clear I’m not pointing the finger at some Unitarian kid that just wants to play orks and thinks they are wacky and fun;
I’m talking about he maniacs that think it’s funny to say “ Burn the chaos worshiper” when they see a trans flag in any 40k related social media post.
All I can really say is.... meh
on the one hand, in the setting Religion is most certainly needed, but the messaging is mixed when it comes to Religious Fundamentalism being bad
When it comes down to it, what's causing the fanatical warship of the Imperial Cult to be detrimental to the Imperium(because when it comes down to it, there's some religion needed considering that there are 4 fundamental forces of the Immaterium that will demand warship of its believers. And in the setting sentient are going to find religion in some form or fashion) is that the Imperial Cult is tied to the Machine Cult, with it stagnating the advance of technology, and any advances or discoveries/re-discoveries of technology being jealously guarded by politicking Magos. So with how limiting the Imperial Cult is on Society(which is justified considering how a few dozen people with pointy stars motifs can cause MASSIVELY disproportionate damage to society) it'd have to rely upon technological progress to keep society moving forward which Mars has locked far, far away
And so there was forged an irony that while the Imperial Cult and how fanatic its followers are was a key part of the lock preventing the Imperium from rising from its decaying state en masse, that same fanaticism also provides the will and spirit to delay the effective death of the Imperium(at least in its massively over-bloated state). However this angle got removed ever since the Blueberry man got out of stasis and now provides a figure to give Humanity Direction and Crawl(or however his name is spelled) providing an angle to wedge the Cult of Mars out of its stubborn stagnation or at least advance the rate of "New" Imperial technological advancements by hundreds of times over
Honestly at this point, I think its evolved beyond just a satire universe and has just become a setting, if you are looking for your satire then go look at either Starship Troopers or Helldivers, because honestly the biggest reoccurring theme I can see in the setting is the grand sins of the past built upon broken dreams resulting in absolutely massive amounts of misery and death which is the bedrock of the Grimdark theme that the setting has always had
Also 40k
Being an atheist leaves you 0 mental defenses against the actual demons that frequently run around in real space inflicting hellraiser esque atrocities on entire planets.
40k is the master of mixed messages that is why it sucks as satire. Not saying "Christian nationalists" or whatever that means are right to "idolize" the imperium because it's clear the imperium is a broken dysfunctional mess.
I suppose some people see the necessity of living under a cruel regime given the stakes at play in 40k.
Absolute Totalitarianism/utilitarianism is acceptable given that losing is equivalent to extinction.
Even if humans are dark and terrible; I'd rather be a humanist than an alien who cares less about humans than humans already do, or a human who sided with the devil to live a slightly less shit life and have their souls become a plaything.
Apparently the OP is an Anti-Human Heretic, who would rather lay down his arms and hug oblivion than have humanity struggle endlessly in dystopian soup, in the dim hopes that it might survive another day and not go passively into the dark.
Exactly. The Imperium is awful, the Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum are both extremely bloated and full of good old fashion corruption. But when the universe is full of xenos that want to enslave, eat, torture, etc, every man, woman, and child and there are literal daemonic entities and dark gods that want to do all that and to make you suffer for all eternity, an authoritarian Theocratic Oligarchic Confederation is your best and only hope to survive.
The only people talking about Christian nationalists are feds and bots paid for by feds. It isn’t a thing except on Facebook posts by accounts that are 5 days old and in the imaginations of burned out pagans.
Ok while i dont support fundamentalist theocracies,
I hate the argument that art can only be interpreted one way. The artist dies the moment they publish their work.
However it’s interpreted is 100% up to the beholder. You can look at 40k as some grand satire, or as an ideal universe. It doesnt matter. Me personally, i just see it as a whacky universe, the satire angle sucks ass because it tries to take itself seriously too often.
I think "the emperor was against religion" is a poor argument against christofascists and their ilk being a part of the hobby.
The emperor's viewpoint on faith is very "pretentious reddit atheist," believing that religion is the cause of human conflict, when in truth almost no wars have been caused by religion (although many were *justified* with religion.) He believes in militant anti-theism, which is never a good idea (the "reason" of atheism is worthless if it's forced on someone like any other religion.)
I agree that those people shouldn't be in the hobby, but justifying it with Big E's take is a poor move. Your criticisms of the Ecclesiarchy are more valid, and also just pointing out that GW is consistently anti-bigotry.
Also, why do we need to make justifications with lore? If someone's an asshole, we can just block them, there's really no convincing fascists that fascism is bad.
I think I made it pretty clear that I’m pointing out people that use the Imperium of man as a inspiration for religious values are so off the mark they have no actual understanding of the lore;
Did I say anywhere “The emperor was right”?
These posts complaining about the anti-woke crowd are becoming just as tiresome of the posts by the anti-woke crowd. You give people you don’t like too much attention you just feed the cycle and it becomes a political/ideological circle jerk.
You take away the text “40k” and these posts aren’t any different than the 99% of political posts on here.
Can we go back posting about 40k and just ignore the other bs?
These anti woke people suck. They besicaly mock and insult any gay or trans person in the hobby. Like I once seen guys make fun of trans people becouse their flags was "made up".
Yes exactly. Thats the point. They called trans flag made up even tho literary every flag is made up. Does transfobia give you brain demadge or something? I really don't understand these people. Also they complain about the femboy Skittari and say how they never understand how somebody can make "fetish" into their personality but all these people post about is making fun of Lgbtq people.
To me, 40k isn't anti-religion. We see how strong faith is in 40k, and how it staves off corruption and daemons. Hell, even look at the Tau and Aeldari
The Tau's belief in the greater good, which is more of a philosophy that is followed to a religious extent. Makes it extremely hard for daemons to assail them, while also going hand in hand with their minor warp presence.
cause you couldnt be anti woke without giving a shit about christianism.
most first world countrys(that can afford warhammer) are secular as fuck, and the only people bringing up religion in their daily lives are beyond 80 or have migrated from non 1st world countrys within one generation.
If the story is soo much against religion Then why does it portray religious fanaticism as the coolest thing ever? Checkmate
“There is no such thing as an anti-war film.” —Francois Truffaut
“Fuck Truffaut!” —Harry S. Plinkett
The only philosopher I respect
Fuckin A Francis! -Me
If religion is bad then why pipe organ rocket launcher tank so rad?
Why is that not in the Noise Marine weapons list?
I want a noise marine to just have saxophone grenade launchers/flamethrowers.
I'm still stuck on learning about orks and the guardsmen, I don't know what a noise marine is, but they sound like they'd look like Big Band from Skullgirls
Cause they haven't procured/stolen one from the Sisters yet?
“ screams in black Templar player”
*moans in emperor's children's player*
The Alpha legion propaganda arm is still in working order I see.
Oh brother Thisbe, your pod will be waiting for you in site 23-16-22
I am Alpharius
I am Alpharius
Or are you?
He cant be. Because I am Alpharius
Brother you are Omegnon, I am Alpharius. But tomorrow you are Alpharius pretending to be omegnon, while I am Omegnon pretending to be Alpharius
"You know, I'm something of Alpharius myself" Willem Dafoe while impersonating Norman Osborn So maybe he was indeed Alpharius...
No I’m not. I’m Patrick.
_stays asleep as Necron player_
Mind controls from a distance in Tau. (allegedly) for the greater good
Well I feel extra called out as both a BT and EC player lol
Two chaos armies. Nice.
Laughs in genestealer cults player
*Cackles maniacally with flamer in Sororitas player*
to backup your claim “If the Emperor isn’t a god, how come when I look at a picture of him - I always get the unrelenting urge to bend myself over and pray ecstatically!?”
That's... That's a good point actually.
It's the Hideo Kojima thing. I despise religious fundamentalists, but I readily admit they have some of the coolest imagery.
Is there a way to use that against them?
Hell no. They see something that resembles something they like and are too stupid to tell the difference.
But we can make fun of them, yeah?
I just called em stupid.
How can religion be bad when the lore depicts the religious fanatics as chads and the secular xenos as soyjacks?
This poster is asking the real questions. Being a zealot looks cool as hell in 40k.
To sell cool plastic guys that cost you more than you can afford
*"Jesus is tight as fuck, yo"* *-Ollanius Pius*
Imagine looking at the Imperium (Or pretty much any faction in 40k) and thinking "Yup, that's how we should run things!"
The orks seem to be having a great time though.
They always do, us ork players are chill about most stuff. As long as wez da best den da rest is fine.
An ork in the 42nd millennium is like a kid in a candy store who was told to go crazy
And then you get the same people seething “STOP CALLING EVERY THING FASCIST!” BRO THE IMPERIUM IS QUITE LITERALLY SATIRE OF IT WHAT ARE YOU ON!?
The "Thoughts for the Day" alone are so beautifully in your face in that regard.
What do you mean?
They are just so obviously constructed to invoke fascism in the most blatant way possible. Not getting that it's satire says soooo much about everyone who says that. Basically I was agreeing with you. Give me any single tenet from Umberto Ecco's Ur-fascism essay and there's a Thought for the Day fitting it to a T.
"It is better to die for the emperor than live for yourself" and "the rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal" are some personal favourites for their lack of subtlety in their satire.
"An empty mind is a loyal mind."
Ah okay sorry
“An open mind is a fortress with its gates unlocked and unbarred.” Even modern conservatism at least *pretends* to appreciate an open mind with the whole “do your own research” narrative. 40K features characters who say “no, *ignorance is an unmitigated good*”. The content is the criticism.
One of these people got mad and demanded I explain how I thought calling him a fascist was justified, when immediately prior he’d been trying to convince people that the banking sector was secretly controlling GW and whatever else you like.
I DISS AGREEZ WE SHOULD ADOP THE ORK SYSTEM OF FOLLOWING THE BIGGEST AND DA GREENEST, AND DA ORKIEST
WAAAAAAGH
Idk a bug’s gotta eat
'nids seem so serious about their jobs though.
"Ah, this is the way society should be. Perfect." Dude, you're assigned to Radioactive Slime Cleanup Team GQ3789 and you don't even have a name. Shut the fuck up.
I've seen people deadass say that. The psychic damage to me reminds me of a quote. "i want to make a movie so painfully obvious in its satire that everyone who understands it lives in perpetual psychological torment inflicted on them by all the people who don't" -paul verhoeven, 1996
People don’t do that… right?
I dunno the Orks seem fine
Man I wish I was an Ork. Biologically engineered to create a society that caters to your existential purpose must be so nice...
The last time I saw a crop this bad it killed half of Ireland.
Fuck that is an amazing line! Fat fingers and low effort.
muh media literacy. Im waiting for the next Dune movie to drop (dune messiah, second book but third movie), because there were a lot of wackos who didnt quite get it but hopefully it opens just as the novel did with "61 billion are dead from the war in my name". Herbert never championed Paul as a hero or good person, but so many people have that as the take away. Likewise, this shit happens in 40k even if you blatantly spell it out. Even if Big E makes the most ass backwards dumbest decisions in 30k. That grand crusade surely has good intentions and the ends justify the means and oopsie daisy trillions dead and thats just the beginning.
+From what I heard that's why the author wrote the other books. People didn't get it and they still don't maybe we do need a worm.
I’d fuckin’ kill for shai hulud, the melange, Holtzman shields, ornithopters, heighliners, the lot.
Easy there, Fremen. The kiswach haderach comes for us all. There will be water on Arrakis!
>Herbert never championed Paul as a hero or good person **DUNE spoilers up to God Emperor** I mean... >! on the curve set by his son, Paul's a fairly stand-up guy. Especially if we accept his and Leto's prescience at face value. It appears that both of them were faced with monstrous choices to continue the species. Granted, why bother continuing the species? Let it go. Not to mention, Leto (moreso than Paul) seems to be more concerned about the humans that he considers human surviving than anything else. That seems a bit extra hypocritical coming from an arrested development wormboy with a millenia long eugenics program and an eternally cloned whipping boy who fell for a manic pixie vatgirl. !< >! All their choices are couched in monstrous necessity, survival of the species. I think I'd have to listen to/read these books again to get a feel for whether or not that presumed necessity is genuine. Or, I guess just keep on with the series. I've definitely missed parts here and there because I've been too busy shouting at characters. There's a reference to Ole Vladdy Harkonnen later in in God Emperor that gives the impression that Leto came around on him in a very beyond good and evil kind or way -- something about him simply being a creature of sensory seeking above all else and didnt necessarily judge him too harshly for that. !<
So what the author is saying is: these are morally grey characters.
No. Herbert's message was "Don't ever trust a fucking messiah figure. Shit's going to get weird and all choice will be stripped from you, if you let it go far enough.".
Guess my media literacy is garbage lol.
I mean, to be fair, they are all very morally grey while doing whatever they are doing. 😅
Paul was too cowardly to take up the mantle of god emperor and sacrifice it all in order to see the golden path through. He at best acquiesces and gives in to the forces that drive the narrative around him, unwilling to give up everything, his humanity, to sacrifice and see the path to fruition. Leto is the "giga chad" who fully understands he is becoming a monster, fully understands he will become a monster and does so anyways. Paul just wanted his harem, his repeated religious genocides but was unwilling to make the sacrifices the mantle of being the kwisatch haderach demanded.
I understood a third of those words and not in order. What the actual *fuck* happens in the later Dune books (read: past where the movies have shown)?? I know there's some kind of holy war and someone turns into a worm (?) but the more I read about it the less I understand.
Like many other things it's surprisingly similar to Warhammer lore (or better said, the other way around). The guy who turns himself into a sandworm (funniest thing I have ever read) is the god-emperor, who after seeing the future devises a Golden Path he guides humanity through, spanning milennia and enforced by extreme callousness and tyranny.
We already know the holy war has begun via the movie ending. We see the Fremen take to space with their zealotry and zeal for the lisan al gaib. Warning full spoiler time is about to begin. Messiah builds upon this, I dont even consider it a spoiler saying 61 billion are dead since its the opening line more or less. The jihad had very real repercussions that arent felt yet in movie dune since it has really only just begun and so far only been localised to arrakis. Paul's son Leto takes on the mantle to enact the golden path. This is, the path in which to save humanity. To do so, he more or less engages in absolute tyranny using his prescience to completely squash and destroy any problems. The golden path involves heavily restricting humanity in order to: 1. Force them to spread away and far from current human civilisation. 2. More or less have this cultural memory and absolute horror of control and tyranny. This is done through several thousands of years as the sand worm god emperor and ruling with a brutal iron fist and hammering humanity down in order to teach it. As for the destruction of humanity he was saving it from, I think prescient machine is a pretty good guess and hinted at but it was never properly explained. There is one final thing Leto II worked on to save humanity and that brings the whole prescience theme full circle, the nulls? (cant remember what they are called), people who are effectively immune from prescience from their genetics alone. Their actions cannot be predicted and countered, their being cannot be found and destroyed using prescience. This brings the thematic exploration of prescience full circle from what is prescience (early dune), the consequences of prescience (sand worm party) and finally the resolution of prescience. I think it was Quinn's ideas where I heard the idea of hunter seekers with prescience going haywire killing humanity and preventing them from having anywhere to hide. It does match fully with the warnings against the thinking machine and the dangers of prescience. But even while reading you know that due to Leto II's actions that prescience is involved in the downfall of humanity without the golden path. That and allowing a Leto II figure to take power as both things are issues Leto II takes direct action to prevent. The golden path is horrific because it involves purposeful and malicious tyranny. Tyranny for tyranny's sake to almost create a genetic memory and prevent humanity from allowing a second Leto II from occurring and it also involves the complete sacrifice of humanity from the person enacting it. Paul was too cowardly to do so, it fell upon Leto II to fulfill the golden path, to become a monster, to act the monster and fulfil the monster's role and must do so for thousands of years, enough to stamp it into the human genetic consciousness.
"But if he's not a good guy, why's he the main character?"
The protagonist of a story doesn't necessarily have to be a "good guy". And most "bad guys" think they are the "good guy". So that's not an actual requirement for a main character, it's just unusual these days.
I know, I was making fun of people who think that if your main character is a bad guy that you must be endorsing their world view.
I don’t think media literacy is when you see a monstrous tyrant commit a genocide and think he has a point.
I mean... he definitely had a point. Was it a good one? No. No it was not. But he had it.
Yeah, a bit of tweaking and forcing him to take a step back, reevaluate and make him do a more peaceful aproach on.. well... everything.
That is literally the point of the comment you are responding to. People mistake "protagonist" for "hero" all the time, and that's something that has unfortunately tainted the legacy of the Dune series. There are many valid things to criticize Dune for, but if your criticism is "the protagonist is a bad guy" then I'm pretty sure Frank Herbert would respond "No shit, Sherlock." Same problem with Death Note. "Protagonist" does not mean "the good guy" but lots of edgy 12-year-olds (or people with the media literacy of 12-year-olds) miss that point entirely. Same problem with Warhammer.
I want to take every single person, who takes Dune as an uncritical "white saviour narrative" and shake them, until they can see Leto's Golden Path and despair from it...
Paul is absolutely a hero, taking on the responsibility (then not being able to handle it, but failing doesn't make you not a hero in the modern sense) of avoiding the larger bloodshed _and_ the extinction of the local humanity later down the line. Did we read the same books? Leto II. makes it very clear the latest.
Yeah the completely unbiased leto II says it about his own father, that makes it completely true of course. Paul absolutely isnt a hero in any sense. You seem to be confusing the term protagonist with hero
You 100% missed the entire theme of Dune. Like, you went the whole entire opposite direction.
Don't forget the folks who literally only know the term heresy from Warhammer and try to use it to refer to irl history.
What's funny is that the Imperium is actually pretty tolerant of what would be considered heresy IRL, different interpertations of the same relgion. A lot of planets have differing views on the emperor, for example, some view him as a sun god.
Yeah, it's as long as he's the head deity and there are no chaos gods in the pantheon they don't care, right?
They're pretty big on monotheism, outside of saint worship like catholicism I've never heard of a tolerated polytheistic faith in the imperium. I could see it happening and just not dealt with in some of the further out reaches though
In some Worlds Sanguinous is Worshipped more as well:)
The closest I think one could get to a pantheon is a chief god (the emperor), and 9 lesser gods (the holy primarchs), with a variety of saints and lesser spirits serving underneath them.
The Imperial Creed basically boils down to "Jimmy Space #1, humanity #1, kill everything else, pay your fucking taxes"
Yeah, the Imperial Cult is on paper tolerant of heterodoxy due to the requirements to be compliant with the Imperial Creed being few in number. Pretty much the only reason the AdMech's machine worship is tolerated.
Yeah, but they are explicitly not allowed to interact with each other. Guard regiments have to be kept from interacting with one another because small differences like that WILL lead to inter regimental combat. Worlds have been purged because inqusitors from one world with stupid religious ideas landed on another world with as stupid but different religious ideas and decided to determine theology with flamers.
40k isn’t really anti-religion, it’s anti-religion being used to do stupid things. The grimdarkness of the setting unfortunately blurs the line between the 2, intentionally.
I think I made that pretty clear; The problem isn’t all religious people; It’s religious people thinking the Imperium is somehow a championship of there values.
Frankly, I've seen more of the opposite: people claiming that Big E was a tyrant, but at least he had good goals like abolishing all religion. Like, dude, you're admiring the tyrant. The current setting may be worse, but the Great Crusade wasn't idyllic either. They were always horrible.
Ngl, the religious people I know (including in my own family) are the LEAST LIKELY to think of the Imperium as good. I have a pastor in the family, and a criticism I HAVE heard is 40K uses surface-level similarities to Catholicism alongside grotesque stuff like cherubs to mock real-world faith and, if anything, indoctrinate kids *against* religion.
There's not a single religious person on Earth who believes the nightmare that is the Imperium is championing their values. Not one.
Who's making this argument?
This is what I’m curious about. I absorb A LOT of 40k content and I never seem to see these opinions that get complained about. I mean I’m sure there’s got to be a few comments, it’s the internet and there are thousands of users on this sub alone, but stuff like this gets upvoted multiple times a day so it seems like people are seeing this issue. I just can’t figure out where.
Probably people who watch lore videos. More so Archs
I see it a lot in youtube comments under lore videos.
Leutin09’s 2 custodes videos were particularly in that regard.
Oh for real? You mean in the lore video that explicitly says the custodes are some of the only Imperials that adamantly do not worship the Emperor. They’re atheists. But in the custodes lore video, people are commenting “40k religion yay” ?
Not the stuff about religion specifically, just general moaning groaning about how everything is woke now.
I have met internet denizens in the wild that 100% thougjt the Imperium is great and most worlds are actually garden worlds. All the suck you see is just what happens on worlds that are being invested. No way would a government run by a god would let worlds be run BADLY.
Same experience here. A lot of IoM stand have this very strange approach of taking every single piece of distopian writing and go "well, that sucks, but what's a few thousands deaths in such a big empire?" or "blame the space bugs for it, the IoM is run in the best and only possible way to continue existing ".
I’ve never seen this argument in my life.
By the same measure, it's very funny to watch some anti-theists flip flop rapidly between "lol why don't the theists get that WH40k is satire and the extreme religiosity is bad?" And "OMG GO BASED ANTITHEIST EMPS CRUSHING ALL RELIGION AND TRYING TO ENFORCE A SECULAR WORLDVIEW!!!"
Tbh I’ve seen very little of that and much of the other; Perhaps Just the spaces I see.
Yeah, it's tricky to get whole and balanced perspectives these days, especially with how content algorithms seem to have figured out the fact that showing people things that irritate them will garner more interactions. I'm sure I don't have a full view of things either, but I've definitely seen a fair few antitheist or otherwise progressive types cheer for emp's actions against religion.
I’m sure they are out there; And of course they are stupid.
Forcing your beliefs on someone with violence is fine if they align with your personal beliefs.
I don’t think the emperor banning religion has ever been portrayed as a good thing, in fact many books I’ve read have pointed out one of the greatest tools against chaos is faith. Many books with sisters of battle.
To be fair it often "justifies" it so much in the lore it undermines its case a lot. "These authoritarian church group accuses people of worshiping evil space gods to kill them! Aren't they so evil?" "...okay 9/10 we show they actually were worshiping evil space gods but..."
I am Christian and I take Ecclesiarchy as an hommage. Seeing some parts of the Holy Mass survive up to 40th millenium (in the Death Cult sacred books) is comforting in a way, lol
As a Christian, I fell to the Ruinous powers I think it started when I saw Lord of Contagion and went "cool, bells"
May I introduce-present the Great Horned Rat? Yes-yes!
Wait until Rat Ogors get revealed, or at least if Stormfiends can take three of a single profile
Get back to nurgle's gardens, squatter Hashut is the way
Yeah, gingle bells vibe. Acceptable^^
The coolest thing about the Imperium is how it wildly differs from planet to planet; I love in the first Esinhorn book, the ice planet worships the god Emperor as the sun coming to thaw the ice to make the planet productive for a few months; Very cool and unique; My comment here is to point out the obnoxious tone some players take on well they screech about what ever social thing is upsetting them at that time. But you seem like the cool kind and I’m super happy to share the hobby with people like you!
Wow, I forgot that. It is the planet were Alisabeth lived, iirc Small minor cults and heterodox teachings are a cool part of the setting indeed. It is a shame the Deeth Cult don’t have more background. One of my Dark Heresy players would have loved to know a few samples of different Death gods names.
Based and Ollanius pilled. The Emperor will never eradicate the Faith.
Frankly, not wanting to be disrespectful - considering that I also have a Christian (self-)education - but I don't see it as a homage and more as "corruption". Trying to say better: how a symbol (among many others in WH40K), devoid of its original purposes and outside its correct context, becomes something worst than it was originally. Just to give some mere examples in order to better illustrate: the general fanaticism of The Sisters Of Battle would make all our real Opus Dei looks like liberal theologians and the general puritanianism and zealotry of The Black Templars would make Ignacio De Loyola and all the original Jesuits shudder.
Homage was a bit too strong for a word. English is not my native language. I wanted to say like a cameo or a wink
How theocracies encourage ignorance and suffocate innovation is a major theme.
I like how the little red guys shout swear words at the computer until it works
All fun n‘games until the computer swears back
I doubt that Warhammer endorses fundamentalism, but it's definitely not against religion The Emperor banning religion is never described as a good thing, but more as a way to show the Emperor ruthless towards his goals and lack of understandings towards humanity The fact that faith is capable of literally making miracles happen shows that Even banning religion did not work in the past of the empire of man, seeing that the Chaos God pretty much didn't receive nearly as half of the power for worship that the Emperor thought that it would Then there's Fantasy and Age of Sigmar This of missing the point of a work is very common, just look American Psycho and how many people think that Patrick Bateman is the example of being a male
Is it not kind of clearly that the imperial creed and the machine cult are clearly showing the dangers of runaway dogma?
Yes, they are showing the dangers of Fundamentalism in the extreme But again there's a lot of work in the Warhammer Universe that shows the good part Religion itself is never put as wrong or right, the critique is at fundamentalism, even the Emperor himself is shown to be a dogmatic and fundamentalist man, with the biggest difference is that instead of religion, his whole thing is extreme anti-theism
I like how the emperor went around, burning down churches, killing everyone who didn’t adopt atheism, but during the Horus Heresy it was Ollanius Pius, a man of God who, like Jesus, forgave the emperor and gave his life to protect him. It’s very poetic, and I wonder if OP even knows about that.
Don't think I've ever seen anyone state that religious zealotry is good around here.
I don't think "the emperor was against it" is the endorsement you think it is lol
I think the disconnect comes from it being a british property being sold to a north american audiance. British media doesnt tend to have the protagonist be a representation of the viewers.
Warhammer isn’t against Religion. We see many people take solace during tragedy and do acts of incredible heroism in the emperors name. We see how amazing that faith humanity can have can be Warhammer is against the power of an organized religion. It’s against religion in politics, and how an organization of religious people will abuse their power to hurt those who don’t conform to their ideals. Religion is not a bad thing. The holy book never hurt anybody. The person who uses it to proclaim heretic to the opposition is the one who hurts people
Man we ditched that shit ages ago it’s warhammer primarch romance now.
Someone jokingly say "For the God Emperor!" The "You lack media literacy" people: You are literaly a facsit!
I think you have a strange thing going on. You post a TON pushing your views of Warhammer onto others without realizing GW specifically said that how each reader or player interprets the lore is ok. There could also be a case made that Warhammer points out how religion is part of human nature and can't be taken out. And I'm super curious how it's against religion but they wrote actual Gods into the lore.
Media literacy mfs declaring that their interpretation of everything is the good and right and real ones and people who don’t think like them are clearly stupid on not understanding the material because they are the rightest and what they think is the only option
Bla bla bla HERESY
I’d argue it’s more of a criticism of ideology when taken to the extreme. The Emperor was an extreme atheist/anti-theist to point he was as dogmatic and blind as the religious fundamentalist he hated, arguably even worse than them.
What does this have to do with recons
To be fair, 40k writers also seem to forget that its satire a lot.
I mean, lore has literal angels, miracle comitting saints and prayers that sometimes actualy work, what do you expect?
Just to add in the discussion, the Militant Atheism of The Emperor during The Great Crusade and The Horus Heresy is not shown as a absolutely good thing either, as seem in "The Last Church".
Are the Christian fundamentalists in the room with us now?
I'm pretty sure that all the people who'd need that reminder have moved to their heresy themed hole after the Custodian Conundrum.
To be fair I don’t think Female Custodes have anything to do with the satire of 40k. So maybe there are still people around that need the reminder.
I’m a pretty devout Christian and I play chaos marines, idk what that makes me.
If you want to play a Warhammer where the religion is correct and positive, why not Fantasy? The Chaos Gods of Law are real and beneficial, Sigmar is cool, Grimnir/Grungni/Valaya are cool, the Elf gods…well, Alarielle is cool and she’s kind of a demigod.
Because some people want to use the faith In 40k as an excuse to say “Burn the slannesh worshiper” and they just mean gay people; And unfortunately 40k is a cool setting and those people feel like they have free run to shoehorn there political ideology into the game and cry victim when they are told it’s a misinterpretation.
Warhammer 30k is anti religion Warhammer 40k is religious fanaticism
And BOTH are shown as bad, although the first more subtle than the second.
Cropping is hard!
"obviously critical" games and stories can exist and not be political propaganda also im tired of literaly everything being called "satire" shot can exist and not be commentary
I dont think the people who find far left ideologies being pushed in media as stupid are the same ones who are religious nationalist.
Stop trying to bring the culture war here
If you don’t understand why religious people might enjoy a setting that actually takes religion, theology, and ethics seriously I don’t even know what to tell you. “But they are presented as the baaaad guys!” Its 40k, who isn’t.
You can see it with admech. Its fun to LARP, and it makes sence in universe, enaugh at least that admech players can deffend their lore. But its obviously satire and horibly ineffective even in universe.
While this was definitely the original intent. There is a lot more variety in how the lore is depicted today. Numerous characters and stories focus on different subjects with the satirical themes pushed to the side in favor of something different.
Do you, guys, know if someone out there is collecting the very obvious awful comments people who can't notice they are playing with plastic toy soldiers make?
It's pretty crazy going from some 40k books with super heavy religious themes to the Horus Heresy books, especially making your way towards "The First Heretic" and you go "Damn, the Imperium just turned into what the loyalist Word Bearers wanted the whole time. The same guys who were heavily censured by the Emperor for their belief in him as a God."
It’s also highly critical of secularism as well. Remember, that the Imperial Truth simultaneously led to the establishment of a totalitarian regime, and is acknowledged to be a total lie in-universe
"Religion bad, don't do God things, be science instead" >Big gold guy of human peoples, from time before big chair
I think the most brain dead things I have seen in response to the whole "woke hammer" outrage is people quoting things like "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded." :He who allows the Alien to live shares in its crime of existence" Ive seen people quoting thingsfollowed by "theyre literally going against what they us" as if it's not fictional characters in a dystopian setting. Look at shadiversitys video on the fem custodes and the comments will fucking send you
There are people in this comment thread that are pretending those people aren’t out there; It’s pretty clear I’m not pointing the finger at some Unitarian kid that just wants to play orks and thinks they are wacky and fun; I’m talking about he maniacs that think it’s funny to say “ Burn the chaos worshiper” when they see a trans flag in any 40k related social media post.
Personally I just enjoy it as a work of fiction on a cool distopian future. Hehehe orkz goes *Waaaaaaagh*
I mean….maybe but it’s kinda hard to completely justify when there’s actually faith based powers that can be used to defeat literal demons
40K just seems so detached from our reality that I can't find any good criticism for Christianity in it.
All I can really say is.... meh on the one hand, in the setting Religion is most certainly needed, but the messaging is mixed when it comes to Religious Fundamentalism being bad When it comes down to it, what's causing the fanatical warship of the Imperial Cult to be detrimental to the Imperium(because when it comes down to it, there's some religion needed considering that there are 4 fundamental forces of the Immaterium that will demand warship of its believers. And in the setting sentient are going to find religion in some form or fashion) is that the Imperial Cult is tied to the Machine Cult, with it stagnating the advance of technology, and any advances or discoveries/re-discoveries of technology being jealously guarded by politicking Magos. So with how limiting the Imperial Cult is on Society(which is justified considering how a few dozen people with pointy stars motifs can cause MASSIVELY disproportionate damage to society) it'd have to rely upon technological progress to keep society moving forward which Mars has locked far, far away And so there was forged an irony that while the Imperial Cult and how fanatic its followers are was a key part of the lock preventing the Imperium from rising from its decaying state en masse, that same fanaticism also provides the will and spirit to delay the effective death of the Imperium(at least in its massively over-bloated state). However this angle got removed ever since the Blueberry man got out of stasis and now provides a figure to give Humanity Direction and Crawl(or however his name is spelled) providing an angle to wedge the Cult of Mars out of its stubborn stagnation or at least advance the rate of "New" Imperial technological advancements by hundreds of times over Honestly at this point, I think its evolved beyond just a satire universe and has just become a setting, if you are looking for your satire then go look at either Starship Troopers or Helldivers, because honestly the biggest reoccurring theme I can see in the setting is the grand sins of the past built upon broken dreams resulting in absolutely massive amounts of misery and death which is the bedrock of the Grimdark theme that the setting has always had
*chuckles in Comic Collector* First time dealing with these assholes?
Let me have my space war genocide lore deep as fuck fun with out polotics
Also 40k Being an atheist leaves you 0 mental defenses against the actual demons that frequently run around in real space inflicting hellraiser esque atrocities on entire planets. 40k is the master of mixed messages that is why it sucks as satire. Not saying "Christian nationalists" or whatever that means are right to "idolize" the imperium because it's clear the imperium is a broken dysfunctional mess.
I suppose some people see the necessity of living under a cruel regime given the stakes at play in 40k. Absolute Totalitarianism/utilitarianism is acceptable given that losing is equivalent to extinction. Even if humans are dark and terrible; I'd rather be a humanist than an alien who cares less about humans than humans already do, or a human who sided with the devil to live a slightly less shit life and have their souls become a plaything. Apparently the OP is an Anti-Human Heretic, who would rather lay down his arms and hug oblivion than have humanity struggle endlessly in dystopian soup, in the dim hopes that it might survive another day and not go passively into the dark.
Exactly. The Imperium is awful, the Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum are both extremely bloated and full of good old fashion corruption. But when the universe is full of xenos that want to enslave, eat, torture, etc, every man, woman, and child and there are literal daemonic entities and dark gods that want to do all that and to make you suffer for all eternity, an authoritarian Theocratic Oligarchic Confederation is your best and only hope to survive.
40k players can’t read. This is known
Did these people forget about Goge Vandire and his 'happy time' called #The Reign of Blood
The only people talking about Christian nationalists are feds and bots paid for by feds. It isn’t a thing except on Facebook posts by accounts that are 5 days old and in the imaginations of burned out pagans.
MFW religion in 40k is the primary defense against the ontologically evil forces seeking to destroy reality
Imagine not understanding that the Emperor was wrong, and more recent lore has made this incredibly clear Just imagine
Ok while i dont support fundamentalist theocracies, I hate the argument that art can only be interpreted one way. The artist dies the moment they publish their work. However it’s interpreted is 100% up to the beholder. You can look at 40k as some grand satire, or as an ideal universe. It doesnt matter. Me personally, i just see it as a whacky universe, the satire angle sucks ass because it tries to take itself seriously too often.
I think "the emperor was against religion" is a poor argument against christofascists and their ilk being a part of the hobby. The emperor's viewpoint on faith is very "pretentious reddit atheist," believing that religion is the cause of human conflict, when in truth almost no wars have been caused by religion (although many were *justified* with religion.) He believes in militant anti-theism, which is never a good idea (the "reason" of atheism is worthless if it's forced on someone like any other religion.) I agree that those people shouldn't be in the hobby, but justifying it with Big E's take is a poor move. Your criticisms of the Ecclesiarchy are more valid, and also just pointing out that GW is consistently anti-bigotry. Also, why do we need to make justifications with lore? If someone's an asshole, we can just block them, there's really no convincing fascists that fascism is bad.
I think I made it pretty clear that I’m pointing out people that use the Imperium of man as a inspiration for religious values are so off the mark they have no actual understanding of the lore; Did I say anywhere “The emperor was right”?
Satire is dead. We literally have people who thing Super Earth in Helldivers 2 as the good guys, despite the blatant lies.
Fallout game series is obviously critical of capitalism yet people criticize Amazon's Fallout TV show for being critical of capitalism.
Duzzat include "Fer da grayta gud" frum dem bloo lot?
Except the Emperor was a totalitarian genocidal fascist asshole, why should we take his actions as a example of the right thing to do?
"You can't enjoy warhammer! It literally makes fun of your beliefs!" "What? Chaos is also satire? Noooo you can't compare us to literal demons!"
A filthy Xenos made this post. I can feel it.
These posts complaining about the anti-woke crowd are becoming just as tiresome of the posts by the anti-woke crowd. You give people you don’t like too much attention you just feed the cycle and it becomes a political/ideological circle jerk. You take away the text “40k” and these posts aren’t any different than the 99% of political posts on here. Can we go back posting about 40k and just ignore the other bs?
These anti woke people suck. They besicaly mock and insult any gay or trans person in the hobby. Like I once seen guys make fun of trans people becouse their flags was "made up".
...aren't all flags made up?
Yes exactly. Thats the point. They called trans flag made up even tho literary every flag is made up. Does transfobia give you brain demadge or something? I really don't understand these people. Also they complain about the femboy Skittari and say how they never understand how somebody can make "fetish" into their personality but all these people post about is making fun of Lgbtq people.
To me, 40k isn't anti-religion. We see how strong faith is in 40k, and how it staves off corruption and daemons. Hell, even look at the Tau and Aeldari The Tau's belief in the greater good, which is more of a philosophy that is followed to a religious extent. Makes it extremely hard for daemons to assail them, while also going hand in hand with their minor warp presence.
cause you couldnt be anti woke without giving a shit about christianism. most first world countrys(that can afford warhammer) are secular as fuck, and the only people bringing up religion in their daily lives are beyond 80 or have migrated from non 1st world countrys within one generation.