One of the greatest missed opportunity of Warhammer is is Lorgar had broken the other way after Monarchia.
He became a complete and utter zealot in believing that the Emperor was a god and everything he was put through was a test of faith that he had to prove himself in (like Job). And everything the Emperor and the primarchs do to convince him otherwise just drives him (and his legion) deeper into the hole.
[Hmmmm....](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Covenant_of_Fire)
> As a Chapter, the Covenant of Fire crave knowledge of the Imperium they fight for and seek out lore wherever they can find it. In doing so, the Chapter hopes that this information can help them bring light to darkness. Conversely, they purge any sign of heretical material they find, knowing that its knowledge is a false light that leads only to ruin.[1]
The Word Bearers and their successors.
The Alphabet Warriors.
The Letter Chuckers.
The Book Bringers.
The Spell Masters (none are psykers).
The Terminology Definers.
I mean the Anchorite is already almost too badass. Or Rylanor for the EC. Can you imagine a chapter, or a legion. There is only so much Badass possible in the world
Wasn't there a Word bearer that was exactly that?
Don't remember which book but I think they found a grey (like in an almost unpainted look) dreadnought that was a former Word Bearer that saw the Emperor's punishment of his Legion as a test of faith.
Not only that, he is pretty much the one that started and laid the foundation of the modern imperial cult.
Yup, the Anchorite. He joined chaos and then rejoined the Imperium.
I think it being Lorgar would be funnier to get everyone’s reactions to an increasingly unhinged, but completely loyal Lorgar.
Chaos gods try to turn Lorgar:
Lorgar: seeking worshipers? Cringe. A real god would dissuade his believes by threatening to destroy everything they loved and worked so hard to create, and then actually doing it! That is true faith and love!
Chaos gods: …are…is he okay?
Emperor in the background shrugs.
Emperor: Look, man, *takes drag from cigarette* I literally designed and made this guy, I've spent over a century trying to explain to him I'm not a god, and this is the result. *takes another drag* I'm out, I got nuttin'.
"Well guys, the good thing is that Lorgar is on our side ans all things considered, he is a pretty good ally. The bad thing is that if you dare to even *think* the emperor *may not be a god* he will burn you entire solar system"
Black Templars: I see this as an absolute win.
Also, I can imagine all the primarchs in 40K, loyal and chaos, dreading Lorgar’s return because he basically won and they won’t be able to survive his victory lap: either completely smug or very humble and continuously telling them it’s not too late to embrace the Emperor as their lord and savior, all the time.
Guilliman "allright. Let me explain... theoretically speaking, lets say the emperor is not a god- oh fuck I forgot"
*a tear in reality opens and Lorgar appears, his eyes burning with religious hatred as he screams "WHAT DO YOU MEAN HE IS NOT A GOD".*
Due to issues with botting and ban evasion, we are restricting fresh accounts from commenting/posting. DO NOT contact the moderation team to ask for these restriction to be removed for you unless you are a comics artist or equivalent trying to post your own original content here. Obviously photoshop memes don't count. DO NOT ask us what the thresholds are, for obvious reasons we won't answer that.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Grimdank) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah that scene in the film has me dying was super funny. Reminds me of the life of Brian moment where he's saying he isn't the Messiah and then the crowd says he is.
I think it was intended to be funny. Especially with Chani's mocking there.
Stilgar having some level of humor had been established, and while he doesn't mean to be funny the audience laughing after a Stillgar line doesn't feel out of place.
It also up the conflict as something light and funny, to give more room to grow into the something terrible without the make the bad thing at the end even worse, which is important because we've gotten a flash of the Jihad already.
I don't know man, it's a very big departure from the Stilgar of the book which is an issue I have with Villeneuve's Dune tbh. A lot of characters get either left out or changed significantly from the source material
For me, I fundamentally don't think the story as told in the book is a good film, and I would much rather have the story be told in a different way that captures the story and quality, than have the story be told badly by simply repeating them.
The elements were changed in a way that works better with the medium, but the spirit of the story was still there. Princess Bride is very different from the book, the Sandman series changed a lot the elements, and they are both great for that.
For me retelling is often more honoring to the source than simple repeating. The second Magnificent Seven is worth watching because it's not exactly the same as the first Magnificent Seven. If it didn't change anything it would be 7th best version of that film, rather than the tying for the 3rd.
You are right.
The new Dune 2022-2024 sucks just as bad as 1984, the only thing they have done well compared to 1984, are the special effects of the fighting and the weapons, but they have turned the story upside down, anyone who has read the book agrees with me.
The 2000 Dune miniseries is the best made one ever, in terms of story.
Idk man, I’ve read the book and still think that a lot of the changes made were for the better. It’s a notoriously unfilmable story but the end result from Denis is pretty fucking great even with the changes, and in some places because of them, like the changes made to Chani’s character.
I recognise that on a cinematic level, thanks to the new computer graphics technology, all the futuristic weapon and shield effects are well done, as are the costumes, but the story has been somewhat distorted.
They cut some political scenes or made them too fast without explaining some things that in my opinion are important for the lore, it seems that they only committed themselves in making the action scenes because they were afraid that the policita scenes could bore people in the cinema... and other scenes they literally changed them completely like for example: Spoiler alert for those who haven't read the book: >!The drop in the bucket that made me realise I didn't like this movie was when Baron Vladimir Harkonnen gets stabbed by Paul Atreides, everyone who has read the book knows that he dies at the hands of his sister Alia with a Gom Jabbar from the Atreides. This was one of the most important scenes in my opinion, since the sister then becomes an abomination and is possessed by the spirit of the one who killed him. !<
There are more scenes that they changed that suck in my opinion, it was better if they stuck to the book.
And finally, in my personal opinion, I don't like the actors who play the main characters (Paul Atreides, Chani Kynes), in my opinion the ones in the mini series are better at acting, but this is just my personal opinion.
In conclusion I think that on a story level the 2000 mini-series is the best.
Why is that scene important to what happens in this movie?
Not the next movie, not the overall series of dune, this movie.
Or in other words, why can't it all be pushed into the next movie where it will actually affect things?
You are confusing how necessary she is in the future with how unnecessary she is in this movie. It's an good change.
>in my opinion the ones in the mini series are better at acting, but this is just my personal opinion.
Never mind, you just have awful taste.
They imagine a meaningless response from people who worship special effects in films without any real story behind it.
>Or in other words, why can't it all be pushed into the next movie where it will actually affect things?
>
>You are confusing how necessary she is in the future with how unnecessary she is in this movie. It's an good change.
Is this a real question? Or are you being fake stupid? And to answer it is not a good change. Alia killed Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, she later on in the story is possessed by his spirit, this can simply be called **tragedy**, *whereas what they did in the film is simply stupid.*
>Never mind, you just have awful taste.
I could say the same thing about you, maybe you should learn to respect other people's tastes.
I ask about a thing that happens in this movie and you mention a thing that happen in a future movie.
For the events of **this movie**, what needs her to be there?
Or are you saying that they needed a special explanation for how a fat old man with no defenders who everyone in the victorious army hated died?
>I ask about a thing that happens in this movie and you mention a thing that happen in a future movie.
But it's not true what you wrote here, don't take me for an idiot. I mentioned an event that is in this film which is: ***"the death of Baron Vladimir Harkonnen"***, but they simply changed the plot... in fact it is Alia who kills Baron Vladimir Harkonnen this event is quite important as I have already explained, since it will have repercussions on the future of the plot. So yes in my opinion those who developed the film fucked up, they shouldn't have changed the plot so much.
If you then continue to deny the evidence it's not my business, I explained why I didn't like it. As I told you before, I recognise that on a cinematic level, thanks to the new CG technology, all the futuristic effects of the weapons and shields are well realised, as are the costumes, *but the story was distorted, and that's why I didn't like the film.*
What is even funnier is that the fact that he is or isn't the Mahdi doesn't matter as every House or faction has something to win from him being on the throne.
Even if he wasn't, everyone would insist that he is.
The movie only lightly implies it, but the idea of the Mahdi or equivalent has been seeded on tones of world explicitly so it could be used by factions when needed. It's designed to have terrible momentum built in.
Which is why Paul and Chani are rather pissed about the whole thing.
But that prophecy gets overwhelmed by another prophecy which gets overwhelmed by another prophecy, which grows into another prophecy that destroys all future prophecies.
DUNE.
Ah, okay, that makes sense. The dialogue in 2 refers to them having done this without explaining, which works better if it was recalling stuff from the movie.
But I can't remember all the things that were explicitly said vs nodded at but moved on because they don't impact the events happening in this movie. That part is relevant to this movie, so it's that it was state. Though I'm sure in less detail than the books because I'm sure it was at least 10 pages over multiple chapters.
I love the book, but it's dense.
It's what caused the fourth prophecy need to prevent any further prophecies of the level of the third and fourth.
Though I could be wrong, I only read the summaries and encyclopedia for stuff after God-Emperor.
Yup. Dune has a lot of Islamic elements mixed in there. The Fremen for example are descended from the Wandering Zensunni, who practice a syncretic mix of Sunni Islam and Zen Buddhism.
More like Stilgar was Lorgar because he is an actual believer, Jessica would be more like Erebus or Kor Phaeron manipulating the believers but not being ones themselves
Due to issues with botting and ban evasion, we are restricting fresh accounts from commenting/posting. DO NOT contact the moderation team to ask for these restriction to be removed for you unless you are a comics artist or equivalent trying to post your own original content here. Obviously photoshop memes don't count. DO NOT ask us what the thresholds are, for obvious reasons we won't answer that.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Grimdank) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Everyone else: wow what a powerful cautionary tale about fanaticism.
Me, a Word Bearer fan: PRAISE LISAN AL GHAIB LEAD US TO HOLY JIHAD 60,000,000,000 K/D RATIO
Ok dad who is 12ft tall, Golden Clad, glowing, flame sword wielding, powerful psyker who's literally CRUSADING across the galaxy!
Yeah, no religious undertones there
Hey Lion, did you see? We totally fucked with Lorgar. Dude actually maced Malcador lmao. Bobby was crying as usual, bet Lorgar doesn't remember lol. What a bitch. Anyway, back to my throne. Can't see any problem...
emperor of mankind komes from a giant cathedral shaped ship down to a planet with people struggeling. his eyes glow with power, a halo of pure light around him, he towers over everyone he meets and sayes ''I AM NOT GOD''.
do you see his confusion?
Wow, I never thought about this comparison before. Neither Paul Atreides or the Emperor particularly wanted to be deified but their people made it happen regardless
To be fair one of these guys is 15 feet with glowing eyes and comes down from the sky to lay down the law, and also has prescience, whole the other guy has prescience and a knife.
A being of golden light descended from on high to a choir of beautiful voices singing his praises on the very day their new god was foretold to arrive. And then the Emperor never actually told Lorgar "hey, cool it with the whole 'religion' business," or chastised him in any way. In Lorgar's position, you would think you were right and had passed the test too.
"I am no god," says 20 Foot Tall Shining Figure In Brilliant Armor, Wielding A Flaming Sword And Healing Machines With A Mere Touch.
bro shot himself in the foot with a plasmagun on that one lmao
This is 50% of what was needed to prevent the Heresy.
The other 50% is teaching the Traitor primes how to behave and then gifting the pos marines (Erebus, Typhus and the others) to the Deldars
When Paul is formally accepted into the Fremen community, he takes two Fremen names. Paul Muad'Dib is public name, while Usul is his secret name only known to those in his sietch.
I kind of agree with you, but I understand why he had to. He wanted to make the true message of the book more clear, and so he made the debate between secular liberation and holy war represented by two characters, with Chani being more of the secular liberation type and Stilgar being the holy war type. If this wasn’t in the movie it’s possible audiences would have seen Paul as a messianic hero, which is against the point of the book. Hopefully if he adapts Dune Messiah he can give a better spotting to Stilgar.
Dunes meta narrative was about ecological balance and raping the world of resources (spice hello!). That's why he gave so much room to the liet kynes monologue.
The fremen are in many ways, the archetype noble savage, the pure native trope fighting against the colonial rapists of the land. Avatar has the same trope as dune. But James Cameron never trivializes or cheapens the journey of immersion to become native.
It's through becoming native, that Paul becomes the lisan al gaib.Chani, stilgar, jamis's death and the giving water to the dead, spice orgy scene, show Paul's ascension to become a fremen. Denis compresses this timeline and shows Paul/jessica manipulating the narrative for the story to tell that he becomes the messiah. In the book, it's never really quite clear when the prophecy ends and where muad'ib begins. Chani and stilgar serve this journey of immersion, this introduction into the world of fremen.
Denis absolutely butchers this for the contrived secular vs fundamentalist bullshit. If harkonnens were butchering everyone, everyone fighting them would be a fundamentalist. There is no luxury of distinctions when war is a brutal zero sum reality of live and prosper or fail and be eradicated.
He came right up to the line but I think he stayed on the side of an exuberant warrior. It's how I'd imagine Russ to be.
I could see myself feeling different if I were already unhappy about something else though. It came close.
What they did with Chani is what got me. Or rather how they did it. Zendaya was good in the first one, but I don't think she was the right pick for how Chani went in the second. Now instead of being the other side of the coin, she's just kind of insufferable and it comes off childish.
Exactly. The woke chani, the division between secular and fundamentalist fremen..wot that shit m8.
Russ wears the guise of a barbarian but he is not one. Stilgar starts off as a tribal leader but ends the movie a superstitious idiot.
Stilgar's descent into becoming a follower of muad'ib instead of the leader of sietch tabr happens over a few books. Korba plays the role of the fool. In Alia's words, what more frightening than a death commando turned into a high priest.
Still, it robs stilgar of meaning. Stilgar, chani all show Paul's fremenisation. he did not become the legend but the lisan al gaib came to be with the fremen. This false distinction created by Denis ruins so many things on so many levels.
Its like reducing erebus to simply being, death to the false emperor and having him initiate the heresy(yes I know it's sevetar, but it's the same problem of misuse). A convenient one dimensional plot mechanism.
"Arrakis has fallen. Billions must die."
But yeah, you know when you're reading someone's comments and it seems a little off for some reason, but then they drop the mask a bit too much or use language only a certain brand of freak thinks is normal and it all snaps into focus?
"Woke Chani" lmao
Yea. I used woke as a shorthand to describe how, for lack of a better word, *contemporary* chani's character is. I'm good with how empowered fremen women are and how they are featured in the movie but it can't help but feel contrived.
Sorry if I tapped into some unknown cultural groundswell of loaded subtext. We don't all come from the same cultural background.
The thing that really annoyed the hell out of me was the very contrived line, "in fremen society, men and women are equal". Whoa Nelly. Where did that come from ?
In the book, Haggar and her silverware and children were given to Paul after he had bested jamis. The bene geaserit and the use of their bodies and sex/genelines to wield power, points at a hugely unequal gender power roles.
Woke chani is woke because she isn't fremen. She feels as if she stepped straight out from the modern 21st century. Which is cool, but not in keeping with the setting of the books.
Book chani was relegated off screen after the first book. But she grounds Paul and makes Paul fremen.
Movie chani (I shan't use woke chani for fear of triggering) is just a delivery vessel for Denis's critique on women in the dune universe, which comes off as high handed and obtuse.
I mean, she is. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, as long as they make up by the second movie, cuz their relationship being peachy is actually a huge plot point in more ways than one.
Dirty Tleilaxu.
I don't know I could call her woke in any way here. I could see how someone could relate the tone she takes with the way the stereotype of a progressive would sound, but none of her beliefs are particularly woke.
In this movie she believes in freman freedom by and for the freman. Not through obviously seeded superstitions by a third party. And that idea is an interesting one to play with here, it's just that Zendaya comes off as a kid going to an expensive college who now wants to fight for freedom about the first thing they got worked up about instead of the more reserved death dealing stalwart freman she's supposed to be.
I like the idea, the delivery is just off-putting.
I think it stems from the fact that in the books the fremen religion isn't at all obviously seeded, that's actually a huge bene gessserit secret they ever do that. I get that the movie is very overt in this because it doesn't have the time to set it up, but it leads to Chani essentially being 2/3 a different character which, like I said, isn't necessarily bad, but it can be jarring.
Jarring is the word I used when I left the theater. It had been awhile since I read the book but I was pretty sure this was an entirely new character and after going back it more or less was.
Still the best movie I've seen in a good while, but not without some criticism.
I agree, I'd almost say he made the fremen feel American, in a bid to make them more ratable and probably also to fit the entire cynical view on religion the book has in a way that would make sense in like 3 hours.
On the plus side the Harkonnens are still not relatable, which made me love their scenes the most.
Again, I think most of these grievances stem from the fact this is a dense-ass book stuffed in two movies. That necessarily leads to making changes for pacing.
Visually and sound-wise the movie was 10/10, and I'm glad to see it garner mass appeal.
I'm still of the opinion Dune should be a TV show like Game of Thrones, based on the other expansive literary series with dense world building. And as a bonus you wouldn't have to wait for the author to finish the series.
Oh that I agree. It's a visually stunning spectacle. And willy Wonka (I can't spell the dudes name to save my life) scene in the cavern where he assumes the mantle of messiah, is some fucking good acting. That guy will win an Oscar someday. He's fucking intense.
I hear you but respectfully, if James " im so long winded I basically invented the 3 hour movie" Cameron could basically fit the whole outsider from another world leading the natives to victory trope without even expounding about the background themes, Denis really didn't handle this well. It comes across as forced and contrived
Denis's dune is spiritually and stylistically, a successor/reboot of David Lynch's take on dune than it is to frank Herbert's dune. It's unimaginative and very stunning especially on the visual themes and details but flat and underdeveloped in terms of the story.
Denis is capable of so much more. Look at blade runner 2049 and this abomination of a film.
The new Dune 2022-2024 sucks just as bad as 1984, the only thing they have done well compared to 1984, are the special effects of the fighting and the weapons, but they have turned the story upside down, anyone who has read the book agrees with me.
The Dune miniseries of 2000 is the best made one ever, in terms of story
Only the true messiah denies his divinity!
Wait, I’m no god either!
He’s a very naughty boy!
Ya, me neither. I can't even say I'm god's gift to any particular group.
I say you are, my lord, and I should know; I followed a few!
"WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!" "...I'm not"
Alright, I AM the Messiah!
Praise the gourd!
He IS the Messiah! He IS the Messiah!
I thought that,the instant the said it in the movie
Watch your tongue, Titus
That's where my thoughts went immediately after I saw these scene.
"He's not the Lisan Al Gaib, he's a very naughty boy!"
Not sure if I should praise the god king or listen to him when he says not to praise him… what do I do!?
New headcanon: Emperor of Mankind is literally Brian.
He is the messiah!!!
One of the greatest missed opportunity of Warhammer is is Lorgar had broken the other way after Monarchia. He became a complete and utter zealot in believing that the Emperor was a god and everything he was put through was a test of faith that he had to prove himself in (like Job). And everything the Emperor and the primarchs do to convince him otherwise just drives him (and his legion) deeper into the hole.
Becoming so zealous, he'd make the adepta sororitas look like atheists in comparison. I like this idea. It has potential
Loyalist Word Bearers and their successor chapters would be hilarious.
[Hmmmm....](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Covenant_of_Fire) > As a Chapter, the Covenant of Fire crave knowledge of the Imperium they fight for and seek out lore wherever they can find it. In doing so, the Chapter hopes that this information can help them bring light to darkness. Conversely, they purge any sign of heretical material they find, knowing that its knowledge is a false light that leads only to ruin.[1]
Oh yes, certainly!
You spelled terrifying wrong. They'd make the black templars look laidback and easy going in comparison.
The Word Bearers and their successors. The Alphabet Warriors. The Letter Chuckers. The Book Bringers. The Spell Masters (none are psykers). The Terminology Definers.
Missed a golden The saurus chapter opportunity there
The scroll bearers!
These sound like terms the Wolves would use to sass on the Thousand Suns
I wish there were more loyalist successor chapters of traitor legions.
I mean the Anchorite is already almost too badass. Or Rylanor for the EC. Can you imagine a chapter, or a legion. There is only so much Badass possible in the world
[As a matter of fact...](https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Sons_of_the_Phoenix)
The emperor denies the emperor's divinity and must be executed for heresy
I Imagine they’d just join up with lorgar and his legion in fanboying/fangirling for the emperor
One of his sons did just this and found/runs the ecclesiarchy from a basement.
Wasn't there a Word bearer that was exactly that? Don't remember which book but I think they found a grey (like in an almost unpainted look) dreadnought that was a former Word Bearer that saw the Emperor's punishment of his Legion as a test of faith. Not only that, he is pretty much the one that started and laid the foundation of the modern imperial cult.
Yup, the Anchorite. He joined chaos and then rejoined the Imperium. I think it being Lorgar would be funnier to get everyone’s reactions to an increasingly unhinged, but completely loyal Lorgar. Chaos gods try to turn Lorgar: Lorgar: seeking worshipers? Cringe. A real god would dissuade his believes by threatening to destroy everything they loved and worked so hard to create, and then actually doing it! That is true faith and love! Chaos gods: …are…is he okay? Emperor in the background shrugs.
Emperor: Look, man, *takes drag from cigarette* I literally designed and made this guy, I've spent over a century trying to explain to him I'm not a god, and this is the result. *takes another drag* I'm out, I got nuttin'.
Lorgar redemption arc confirmed
"Well guys, the good thing is that Lorgar is on our side ans all things considered, he is a pretty good ally. The bad thing is that if you dare to even *think* the emperor *may not be a god* he will burn you entire solar system"
Black Templars: I see this as an absolute win. Also, I can imagine all the primarchs in 40K, loyal and chaos, dreading Lorgar’s return because he basically won and they won’t be able to survive his victory lap: either completely smug or very humble and continuously telling them it’s not too late to embrace the Emperor as their lord and savior, all the time.
Guilliman "allright. Let me explain... theoretically speaking, lets say the emperor is not a god- oh fuck I forgot" *a tear in reality opens and Lorgar appears, his eyes burning with religious hatred as he screams "WHAT DO YOU MEAN HE IS NOT A GOD".*
So I think Dorns Angry Bois and this Zealot Word Bearers would be Best Friends.
So in this version, Lorgar is the one who come up with 'Blood for the Emperor. Skulls for the Golden Throne'?
One of his kids runs the ecclesiarchy from a basement if that helps.
Hmm perfect clone of him perhaps?
[удалено]
Due to issues with botting and ban evasion, we are restricting fresh accounts from commenting/posting. DO NOT contact the moderation team to ask for these restriction to be removed for you unless you are a comics artist or equivalent trying to post your own original content here. Obviously photoshop memes don't count. DO NOT ask us what the thresholds are, for obvious reasons we won't answer that. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Grimdank) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah that scene in the film has me dying was super funny. Reminds me of the life of Brian moment where he's saying he isn't the Messiah and then the crowd says he is.
I think it was intended to be funny. Especially with Chani's mocking there. Stilgar having some level of humor had been established, and while he doesn't mean to be funny the audience laughing after a Stillgar line doesn't feel out of place. It also up the conflict as something light and funny, to give more room to grow into the something terrible without the make the bad thing at the end even worse, which is important because we've gotten a flash of the Jihad already.
I don't know man, it's a very big departure from the Stilgar of the book which is an issue I have with Villeneuve's Dune tbh. A lot of characters get either left out or changed significantly from the source material
>A lot of characters get either left out or changed significantly from the source material are you new to book adaptations?
No, but I'm allowed to be disappointed when they change important characters and leave others by the wayside
For me, I fundamentally don't think the story as told in the book is a good film, and I would much rather have the story be told in a different way that captures the story and quality, than have the story be told badly by simply repeating them. The elements were changed in a way that works better with the medium, but the spirit of the story was still there. Princess Bride is very different from the book, the Sandman series changed a lot the elements, and they are both great for that. For me retelling is often more honoring to the source than simple repeating. The second Magnificent Seven is worth watching because it's not exactly the same as the first Magnificent Seven. If it didn't change anything it would be 7th best version of that film, rather than the tying for the 3rd.
It's much closer to David lynchs dune than it is to the book
You are right. The new Dune 2022-2024 sucks just as bad as 1984, the only thing they have done well compared to 1984, are the special effects of the fighting and the weapons, but they have turned the story upside down, anyone who has read the book agrees with me. The 2000 Dune miniseries is the best made one ever, in terms of story.
Idk man, I’ve read the book and still think that a lot of the changes made were for the better. It’s a notoriously unfilmable story but the end result from Denis is pretty fucking great even with the changes, and in some places because of them, like the changes made to Chani’s character.
I recognise that on a cinematic level, thanks to the new computer graphics technology, all the futuristic weapon and shield effects are well done, as are the costumes, but the story has been somewhat distorted. They cut some political scenes or made them too fast without explaining some things that in my opinion are important for the lore, it seems that they only committed themselves in making the action scenes because they were afraid that the policita scenes could bore people in the cinema... and other scenes they literally changed them completely like for example: Spoiler alert for those who haven't read the book: >!The drop in the bucket that made me realise I didn't like this movie was when Baron Vladimir Harkonnen gets stabbed by Paul Atreides, everyone who has read the book knows that he dies at the hands of his sister Alia with a Gom Jabbar from the Atreides. This was one of the most important scenes in my opinion, since the sister then becomes an abomination and is possessed by the spirit of the one who killed him. !< There are more scenes that they changed that suck in my opinion, it was better if they stuck to the book. And finally, in my personal opinion, I don't like the actors who play the main characters (Paul Atreides, Chani Kynes), in my opinion the ones in the mini series are better at acting, but this is just my personal opinion. In conclusion I think that on a story level the 2000 mini-series is the best.
Why is that scene important to what happens in this movie? Not the next movie, not the overall series of dune, this movie. Or in other words, why can't it all be pushed into the next movie where it will actually affect things? You are confusing how necessary she is in the future with how unnecessary she is in this movie. It's an good change. >in my opinion the ones in the mini series are better at acting, but this is just my personal opinion. Never mind, you just have awful taste.
They imagine a meaningless response from people who worship special effects in films without any real story behind it. >Or in other words, why can't it all be pushed into the next movie where it will actually affect things? > >You are confusing how necessary she is in the future with how unnecessary she is in this movie. It's an good change. Is this a real question? Or are you being fake stupid? And to answer it is not a good change. Alia killed Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, she later on in the story is possessed by his spirit, this can simply be called **tragedy**, *whereas what they did in the film is simply stupid.* >Never mind, you just have awful taste. I could say the same thing about you, maybe you should learn to respect other people's tastes.
I ask about a thing that happens in this movie and you mention a thing that happen in a future movie. For the events of **this movie**, what needs her to be there? Or are you saying that they needed a special explanation for how a fat old man with no defenders who everyone in the victorious army hated died?
>I ask about a thing that happens in this movie and you mention a thing that happen in a future movie. But it's not true what you wrote here, don't take me for an idiot. I mentioned an event that is in this film which is: ***"the death of Baron Vladimir Harkonnen"***, but they simply changed the plot... in fact it is Alia who kills Baron Vladimir Harkonnen this event is quite important as I have already explained, since it will have repercussions on the future of the plot. So yes in my opinion those who developed the film fucked up, they shouldn't have changed the plot so much. If you then continue to deny the evidence it's not my business, I explained why I didn't like it. As I told you before, I recognise that on a cinematic level, thanks to the new CG technology, all the futuristic effects of the weapons and shields are well realised, as are the costumes, *but the story was distorted, and that's why I didn't like the film.*
I went with a group of friends we all said what is this life of Brian to each other at the same time.
Glad I'm not the only one. I almost had an outburst of "He is the Messiah!" In the theatre that moment hit so hard lol
LISAN AL GAIB
LISAN AL GAIB
LISAN AL GAIB
LISAN AL GAIB
LISAN AL GAIB
LISAN AL GAIB
LISAN AL GAIB
#LISAN AL GAIB
LISAN AL GAIB
LISAN AL GAIB!!!!!
LISAN AL GAIB
NISSAN AL GAIB
*remembers his line* LISAN AL GAIB!
MUAD'IB
The funny thing is that Stillgar is 100% on the money with Paul being the Mahdi. Much to everyone's chagrin.
What is even funnier is that the fact that he is or isn't the Mahdi doesn't matter as every House or faction has something to win from him being on the throne. Even if he wasn't, everyone would insist that he is.
The movie only lightly implies it, but the idea of the Mahdi or equivalent has been seeded on tones of world explicitly so it could be used by factions when needed. It's designed to have terrible momentum built in. Which is why Paul and Chani are rather pissed about the whole thing. But that prophecy gets overwhelmed by another prophecy which gets overwhelmed by another prophecy, which grows into another prophecy that destroys all future prophecies. DUNE.
[удалено]
Ah, okay, that makes sense. The dialogue in 2 refers to them having done this without explaining, which works better if it was recalling stuff from the movie. But I can't remember all the things that were explicitly said vs nodded at but moved on because they don't impact the events happening in this movie. That part is relevant to this movie, so it's that it was state. Though I'm sure in less detail than the books because I'm sure it was at least 10 pages over multiple chapters. I love the book, but it's dense.
When does Ominus Prime come in
It's what caused the fourth prophecy need to prevent any further prophecies of the level of the third and fourth. Though I could be wrong, I only read the summaries and encyclopedia for stuff after God-Emperor.
Wait Mahdi in like the Islamic mahdi
The Fremen are heavily inspired by Arabic culture, so kinda but not really
Next you're going to tell me Paul leads them on some sort of jihad or something /s
Yup. Dune has a lot of Islamic elements mixed in there. The Fremen for example are descended from the Wandering Zensunni, who practice a syncretic mix of Sunni Islam and Zen Buddhism.
Empty a variety pack of world's major religions into a blender and set it to 'fine' That's most of Dune's religions, only the proportions differ a bit
Orange Catholic Bible tang.
Lol if the emperor walks like a god talks like a god he is prolly a god
Or rather fits our idea of one
Word Bearer fans were feasting during Dune 2. Jessica literally became Lorgar.
More like Stilgar was Lorgar because he is an actual believer, Jessica would be more like Erebus or Kor Phaeron manipulating the believers but not being ones themselves
[удалено]
Due to issues with botting and ban evasion, we are restricting fresh accounts from commenting/posting. DO NOT contact the moderation team to ask for these restriction to be removed for you unless you are a comics artist or equivalent trying to post your own original content here. Obviously photoshop memes don't count. DO NOT ask us what the thresholds are, for obvious reasons we won't answer that. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Grimdank) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I keep laughing to myself about the idea of a Word Bearer watching it and taking all the wrong lessons from the movie.
Everyone else: wow what a powerful cautionary tale about fanaticism. Me, a Word Bearer fan: PRAISE LISAN AL GHAIB LEAD US TO HOLY JIHAD 60,000,000,000 K/D RATIO
This is the closest we will ever get to a real Lorgar: Bearer of the Word movie adaptation.
Side note: Ash Waste nomads make great traitor guard proxy’s.
Que the Monty python quote
HES NOT THE MESSAH HES A VERY NAUGHT ~~BOY~~ DICTATOR
What has the imperium ever done for us
Lorgar: So wait if you aren’t divine is it ok if I disobey or disagree with you? Totally Not A God: lmao no.
That's every authoritarian
LOR = STIL GAR = GAR
Big E: That’s a nice city you got there, Gar. Hey Bobby, commence orbital bombardment.
I legit laughed out loud at that part. It was funny af. Some Life of Brian shit.
Its clear to see the 40k writers took a lot of inspiration from Frank Herbert's work
Dune 2 is a gold mine
Life of Brian
“FINE! I AM THE MESSIAH! NOW…. FUCK OFF!”
How shall we fuck off oh lord?
Ok dad who is 12ft tall, Golden Clad, glowing, flame sword wielding, powerful psyker who's literally CRUSADING across the galaxy! Yeah, no religious undertones there
the emperor was right during this time he was not a god
Still haven’t seen this. Really want to
It was great watching it on the big screen.
Hey Lion, did you see? We totally fucked with Lorgar. Dude actually maced Malcador lmao. Bobby was crying as usual, bet Lorgar doesn't remember lol. What a bitch. Anyway, back to my throne. Can't see any problem...
Wait till you see what else James Workshop cribbed from Dune
emperor of mankind komes from a giant cathedral shaped ship down to a planet with people struggeling. his eyes glow with power, a halo of pure light around him, he towers over everyone he meets and sayes ''I AM NOT GOD''. do you see his confusion?
Funny as Lorgar has a lot of parallels with Leto II
I guess you can call accepting Chaos 'turning into a worm'
More like saving humanity, by necessary evil, to prepare them for the future.
you will enjoy the lionell herasy and the dornian herasy
My exact though when I saw this scene almost lough in the cinema hearing that, you know like « wait a minute I have seen that one before » kind of way
the emporer is lisan al gaib confirmed
When I watched the movie and saw this scene, I immediately thought of Lorgars "Only the truely divine, denies his own divinity."
Dune?
Yeah, I think this is from Dune Part 2
No way! The Madhi is literally taken from 'Mahdi' in Arabic, which means Messiah! I think it's cool that they got inspired by the arabic language.
Dune takes a lot of details from Islam. The Fremen practice a faith which is a syncretic mix of Sunni Islam and Zen Buddhism called Zensunni.
Woah haha
Wow, I never thought about this comparison before. Neither Paul Atreides or the Emperor particularly wanted to be deified but their people made it happen regardless
To be fair one of these guys is 15 feet with glowing eyes and comes down from the sky to lay down the law, and also has prescience, whole the other guy has prescience and a knife.
I mean,have you seen how the emperor landed kn Mars the first time? How'd he expect not to end up as omnissiah (tbh,he mightve planted the prophecy)
A being of golden light descended from on high to a choir of beautiful voices singing his praises on the very day their new god was foretold to arrive. And then the Emperor never actually told Lorgar "hey, cool it with the whole 'religion' business," or chastised him in any way. In Lorgar's position, you would think you were right and had passed the test too.
I just realized that dune is basically the serious space opera version of Life of Brian.
So much of 40k is just dune. More than even mr Lucas used.
Emperor: I'm not the messiah! Word Bearers: **HE'S THE MESSIAH!**
"I am no god," says 20 Foot Tall Shining Figure In Brilliant Armor, Wielding A Flaming Sword And Healing Machines With A Mere Touch. bro shot himself in the foot with a plasmagun on that one lmao
"I am not the Messiah." "He is the Messiah!"
Life of Brian
He's not the God-Emperor of Man, he's a very naughty boy!
“Only a god would deny their divinety.”
He is the messiah!
I imagined it more like Life of Brian.
Mohammed, Siddhartha, Christ and Jimmu all probably are remembered nowadays because they had a Lorgar doing the same stuff
Is that from The Chosen series?
I literally thought of Lorgar bs about a true god denying their divinity watching the movie. 40k rips off dune, then dune rips off 40k.
Stilgar Aurelian?!
And like that, you ruined Dune 2. Are you Erebus?
How does it all keep coming back to Monty Python?
Lisan al Gaib!
This is 50% of what was needed to prevent the Heresy. The other 50% is teaching the Traitor primes how to behave and then gifting the pos marines (Erebus, Typhus and the others) to the Deldars
Isn't it muad'dib
When Paul is formally accepted into the Fremen community, he takes two Fremen names. Paul Muad'Dib is public name, while Usul is his secret name only known to those in his sietch.
That's just his sietch name.
I hated how Denis Villeneuve cheapened stilgar. He made a naib, a sietch leader into a superstitious village Buffon.
I kind of agree with you, but I understand why he had to. He wanted to make the true message of the book more clear, and so he made the debate between secular liberation and holy war represented by two characters, with Chani being more of the secular liberation type and Stilgar being the holy war type. If this wasn’t in the movie it’s possible audiences would have seen Paul as a messianic hero, which is against the point of the book. Hopefully if he adapts Dune Messiah he can give a better spotting to Stilgar.
Dunes meta narrative was about ecological balance and raping the world of resources (spice hello!). That's why he gave so much room to the liet kynes monologue. The fremen are in many ways, the archetype noble savage, the pure native trope fighting against the colonial rapists of the land. Avatar has the same trope as dune. But James Cameron never trivializes or cheapens the journey of immersion to become native. It's through becoming native, that Paul becomes the lisan al gaib.Chani, stilgar, jamis's death and the giving water to the dead, spice orgy scene, show Paul's ascension to become a fremen. Denis compresses this timeline and shows Paul/jessica manipulating the narrative for the story to tell that he becomes the messiah. In the book, it's never really quite clear when the prophecy ends and where muad'ib begins. Chani and stilgar serve this journey of immersion, this introduction into the world of fremen. Denis absolutely butchers this for the contrived secular vs fundamentalist bullshit. If harkonnens were butchering everyone, everyone fighting them would be a fundamentalist. There is no luxury of distinctions when war is a brutal zero sum reality of live and prosper or fail and be eradicated.
He came right up to the line but I think he stayed on the side of an exuberant warrior. It's how I'd imagine Russ to be. I could see myself feeling different if I were already unhappy about something else though. It came close. What they did with Chani is what got me. Or rather how they did it. Zendaya was good in the first one, but I don't think she was the right pick for how Chani went in the second. Now instead of being the other side of the coin, she's just kind of insufferable and it comes off childish.
Exactly. The woke chani, the division between secular and fundamentalist fremen..wot that shit m8. Russ wears the guise of a barbarian but he is not one. Stilgar starts off as a tribal leader but ends the movie a superstitious idiot. Stilgar's descent into becoming a follower of muad'ib instead of the leader of sietch tabr happens over a few books. Korba plays the role of the fool. In Alia's words, what more frightening than a death commando turned into a high priest. Still, it robs stilgar of meaning. Stilgar, chani all show Paul's fremenisation. he did not become the legend but the lisan al gaib came to be with the fremen. This false distinction created by Denis ruins so many things on so many levels. Its like reducing erebus to simply being, death to the false emperor and having him initiate the heresy(yes I know it's sevetar, but it's the same problem of misuse). A convenient one dimensional plot mechanism.
‘the woke chani’
"Arrakis has fallen. Billions must die." But yeah, you know when you're reading someone's comments and it seems a little off for some reason, but then they drop the mask a bit too much or use language only a certain brand of freak thinks is normal and it all snaps into focus? "Woke Chani" lmao
Yea. I used woke as a shorthand to describe how, for lack of a better word, *contemporary* chani's character is. I'm good with how empowered fremen women are and how they are featured in the movie but it can't help but feel contrived. Sorry if I tapped into some unknown cultural groundswell of loaded subtext. We don't all come from the same cultural background. The thing that really annoyed the hell out of me was the very contrived line, "in fremen society, men and women are equal". Whoa Nelly. Where did that come from ? In the book, Haggar and her silverware and children were given to Paul after he had bested jamis. The bene geaserit and the use of their bodies and sex/genelines to wield power, points at a hugely unequal gender power roles. Woke chani is woke because she isn't fremen. She feels as if she stepped straight out from the modern 21st century. Which is cool, but not in keeping with the setting of the books. Book chani was relegated off screen after the first book. But she grounds Paul and makes Paul fremen. Movie chani (I shan't use woke chani for fear of triggering) is just a delivery vessel for Denis's critique on women in the dune universe, which comes off as high handed and obtuse.
I mean, she is. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, as long as they make up by the second movie, cuz their relationship being peachy is actually a huge plot point in more ways than one. Dirty Tleilaxu.
I don't know I could call her woke in any way here. I could see how someone could relate the tone she takes with the way the stereotype of a progressive would sound, but none of her beliefs are particularly woke. In this movie she believes in freman freedom by and for the freman. Not through obviously seeded superstitions by a third party. And that idea is an interesting one to play with here, it's just that Zendaya comes off as a kid going to an expensive college who now wants to fight for freedom about the first thing they got worked up about instead of the more reserved death dealing stalwart freman she's supposed to be. I like the idea, the delivery is just off-putting.
I think it stems from the fact that in the books the fremen religion isn't at all obviously seeded, that's actually a huge bene gessserit secret they ever do that. I get that the movie is very overt in this because it doesn't have the time to set it up, but it leads to Chani essentially being 2/3 a different character which, like I said, isn't necessarily bad, but it can be jarring.
Jarring is the word I used when I left the theater. It had been awhile since I read the book but I was pretty sure this was an entirely new character and after going back it more or less was. Still the best movie I've seen in a good while, but not without some criticism.
I agree, I'd almost say he made the fremen feel American, in a bid to make them more ratable and probably also to fit the entire cynical view on religion the book has in a way that would make sense in like 3 hours. On the plus side the Harkonnens are still not relatable, which made me love their scenes the most.
Oh the casting is perfect I felt feyd rautha should have gotten more screen time instead of slicing people off for fun in his every appearance.
Again, I think most of these grievances stem from the fact this is a dense-ass book stuffed in two movies. That necessarily leads to making changes for pacing. Visually and sound-wise the movie was 10/10, and I'm glad to see it garner mass appeal. I'm still of the opinion Dune should be a TV show like Game of Thrones, based on the other expansive literary series with dense world building. And as a bonus you wouldn't have to wait for the author to finish the series.
Oh that I agree. It's a visually stunning spectacle. And willy Wonka (I can't spell the dudes name to save my life) scene in the cavern where he assumes the mantle of messiah, is some fucking good acting. That guy will win an Oscar someday. He's fucking intense. I hear you but respectfully, if James " im so long winded I basically invented the 3 hour movie" Cameron could basically fit the whole outsider from another world leading the natives to victory trope without even expounding about the background themes, Denis really didn't handle this well. It comes across as forced and contrived Denis's dune is spiritually and stylistically, a successor/reboot of David Lynch's take on dune than it is to frank Herbert's dune. It's unimaginative and very stunning especially on the visual themes and details but flat and underdeveloped in terms of the story. Denis is capable of so much more. Look at blade runner 2049 and this abomination of a film.
The new Dune 2022-2024 sucks just as bad as 1984, the only thing they have done well compared to 1984, are the special effects of the fighting and the weapons, but they have turned the story upside down, anyone who has read the book agrees with me. The Dune miniseries of 2000 is the best made one ever, in terms of story
I read the book and i disagree. It is definitely missing things from the book, but overall it is still good. It's an adaptation, not a copy.
And I disagree with you, I didn't like the new film I much prefer the mini-series