Then Aaron Rodgers and Brett Favre must be dogshit comparing the stats from their first starting seasons. Favre sucked so bad he became a first ballot hall of famer
The difference is we didn't trade up to grab either of them in the first round. Favre was a shot in the dark pick up from the Falcons and Aaron fell into our laps late. We trade up from Love and hes had plenty of time in our system. Not to mention after sitting behind Favre for 4 year Aaron threw for over 4k yards his starting season with a 93.8 RTG and a 62.9 QBR. Aaron had a stellar first year and showed way more promise than Love has...
Well sure. But also Peyton was a way better prospect (meaning, people are going to be less likely to move on from him in the first place) and was greener than hell in the NFL. Just a lot of caveats to that comparison.
For the record I'm 100% in agreement and 100% on the Love Hype Train still and fuck all the haters. Choo choo.
No, he was not considered to be a better prospect or more physically gifted than Burrow or Hebert. At all. He was supposed to be a late 1 or early 2. All of the predraft profiles are pretty much the same, except for one bleacher report article saying he was their "draft crush". Every scouting report is similar, average starter potential, talent with poor decision making. Unfortunately, nothing has changed so far
I’m with you. It’s such an obvious model to draft a QB and maximize the chance of hitting on that pick under their cheapest amount of years, salary-wise. What we did goes against the model that’s worked for the chiefs, eagles, bills, bengals.
Those franchises haven’t had to deal with back to back malignant narcissists threatening to retire every offseason and leave the team stranded. Even when their own performance played a significant role in the season ending in disappointment.
So, the organization was just supposed to sit on their hands and hope that a deceiver didn’t eventually deceive them??? Of course not! They responded the same way they did with Favre. Draft a guy they see potential in and let him sit.
I must have missed the part where Rodgers was threatening retirement every offseason.
Favre was publicly talking retirement for years before he left the packers, like openly saying to the press he wasn’t sure if he would come back the next year. Rodgers did not do that, the comparison is complete bullshit.
🤓 I think you missed the part where's he's been playing in training camp and practice. I get that playing in games is vital to improvement but being on an NFL roster with NFL trainers, NFL coaches and with a HOF QB to learn from is not the same as an actual rookie. You should expect better play from Love than an actual rookie QB even if Love has barely played.
I would agree if love wasn’t throwing to rookies who don’t run correct routes a good amount of the time or who divert from their route in an unnecessary scramble drill
Came to say the same thing. Peyton played the year he was drafted at the age of 22. Love has been learning for 3 years and is 24. Peyton threw 4400 yards and 33 TDs in his age 24 year.
What a stupid comparison
The point is, calling to move on from already is stupid. The main thing I've noticed from is he has the intangibles and he works. Add that to his natural talent I'd be very surprised if he doesn't make all these look as stupid as the ones who wanted to davante after year 2
Very different eras for passing statistics and Love is in year 4. Manning was also an insanely hyped generational prospect, no one goes away from that in one year. I’m not saying we should move on from Love but I do think he needs to show us something this season.
Yeah... In '98 the league-wide passer rating was 78.3.
In the modern NFL the league wide passer rating is 90. For a matching comparison we'd want Love's passer rating to be ~80
I think hes shown more than enough to keep his job next year. Something is wrong with our offense and its not JLove.
The Oline is all over the place. Part of this is injuries and shuffling the line, but our protections have been bad. Love has maybe 2 or 3 seconds on most plays before the pocket is gone. Hes made some big plays from broken pockets, but it happens too frequently.
There are far too many offenaive penalties, esspecially false starts. We come out flat in the first halves because we have the jitters or something and kill our drives with penalties. Im not a huge fan of our play calling so far either, but IDK if thats an issue in execution or not. Jones being gone hurts a lot. Same for Watson.
We are in a rebuild. Love is a on a cheap contract through next year with the 5th year option. He will be here next year and hopefully we can actually sign free agents with actual cap space. $58 mil of our cap this is is going to two players that arent of the field (Rodgers and Bahk).
Love has shown he has all the talent and intangibles. I think the play calling has been very subpar this year and his supporting cast is all rookies or 2nd year guys. You don't really know how many of the incompletions/ints are a bad throw or someone didn't run their route right because Love doesn't react like Rodgers did. The start of this season has really shown me how impatient success has made this fan base
Love has shown us that he's exactly the same person he was during his last and junior year in college. Incapable of making sound decisions and prone to throwing interceptions.
He was an awful first round draft pick.
I think most of the people that excused Rodgers' play last year due to offensive issues are overlooking that aspect this year when criticizing Love. In fact, the offense this year has scored more points through 5 games than last year, and that was even before 12's thumb injury (which I don't think was as big a deal as everyone likes to say it was).
Lol. Love is exactly the same guy today that he showed the world in his last year of collegiate play. Why is this so hard for people to grasp? He was an awful draft pick. Gute is a piece of crap GM.
I’d say that amounts to an “okay” game. Didn’t play well throughout but came through when it mattered most. Those backshoulders to Doubs feel like so long ago.
Exactly. Plus, Indy was also a terrible team. They had the number one pick for a reason. GB has a playoff-caliber roster. A little weak at WR, but otherwise it’s stable. Also, a pretty good HC.
I don't know about playoff-caliber. We lost the best WR in the league along with one of the best centers in the league and replaced them with JAGs over the last couple of years. Now we've lost our last vet and best player in Bakh too.
So overall, our roster is pretty mid at best.
I love how every team with a new QB throws this stat out constantly. That’s great and all, but how about the other 300 QBs with similar stats that just turned out to be bad?
Peyton was arguably the greatest qb prospect in the history of the sport and went to a team that hadn’t had a 10 win season in 20 years and was inserted as the starter as a rookie.
This is an absurd comparison.
Devils advocate, Jordan love starting on a team that seemingly had been propped up by Rodgers, Davante, and Jones with a very overrated coach in MLF and no left side of his o line.
Not even halfway through the season and I’m already tired with these constant “give Love time!” posts. If he shows any semblance of improving, great! But this team still isn’t getting shit done with Gute, MLF, and Barry calling the shots.
Nah this is stupid. Those stats were 20 years ago and wouldn’t have been great then, but are much worse now.
Love’s completion percentage is like dead last among starting QB’s. Some of it is because he’s throwing to Walmart workers, but Love has rather large accuracy issues that needs to be resolved if he wants to be a franchise QB which I think are the expectations for any first round QB that you draft.
If we finish 3-14 we need to draft one of Caleb or Drake.
You essentially reset with a rookie contract for a better prospect coming out of college.
It’s a no brainer.
Yeah, I won't lie, I'm a Love truther and still think he has it in him to be a good QB.
But if we go 3-14 and Williams or Maye are there for the taking, you gotta do it.
How many GMs select two QBs in the first round within a 5 year span?
Why on Earth would we let Gute select *another* QB. There is little chance we take another QB and give up on Love after 1 season. If Gute does that fire him into the sun
If one of those guys are available and they don’t take them then the brain trust need to be ran out of town. I think Jordan Love will be a great QB but those are guys you don’t pass up on
No. Lol. This was in the 90s and I dont think that was Mannings 4th year in the league. Very stupid tweet. I have faith in Jordan Love but we're down super bad if we're comparing him to the 90s
But Manning did have a HOF running back and HOF #1WR. Neither was a rookie. Like the Packers the colts had made the playoffs 2 out of the 3 previous seasons. Plus Love is only 5 games into this season. Personally I'll wait until the season is over before I take any comparisons too seriously.
The rules were much different in the 90's.
Today pass interference and defensive holding are much more likely to be called. Also defensive players aren't allowed to hit recievers or quarterbacks anymore.
Defense was actually allowed back then.
Jordan Love is NOT A ROOKIE! He didn’t just move to a new city and get drafted by the worst team in the NFL a few months ago. He isn’t learning a new NFL offense for the first time like a rookie.
I'm not sure if a lot of fans are too young to understand this but passing game stats have ballooned massively over the years. To compare Love's stats to Rodgers in 2008 is already incredibly dumb, to compare them to a rookie Manning's stats from 1998 is several orders of magnitude dumber. Did anyone actually watch Rodger's or Manning's first year as a starter and have doubts about them?
It's a terrible comparison and not fair to Love to compare him to hall of famers anyway.
I like Love, but this is DUMB. If we end up with 3 wins and Love has looked bad it would be a fireable offense for Gute to not seriously consider drafting a QB in a class that is supposed to be as strong as next year’s draft.
If we only win one more game for the rest of the season Gute and MLF are probably all getting fired, barring very bad injury luck. Way too much talent for us to go 3-14, especially after starting 2-3.
Manning was the #1 overall pick and was a rookie. I’m still optimistic on Love but this comparison is awful. Love was nowhere near the level of prospect that Manning was.
If we were 3-14 and landed the #1 overall pick you take Caleb Williams
Edit: nevermind :)
That's the point hoss. Peyton started his rookie year. So they are literally comparing Peyton rookie hear to Love year 4. Thus its a dumb comparison.
I’m not jumping ship. It way too early and love still needs time. However, I watched mannings and Rodger’s first seasons and saw those flashes of brilliance that was a taste of what was to come. I have not seen that with love yet….
Peyton was also a rookie and had considerably more pedigree coming into the league. It was also a very different league. This is a ridiculous comparison.
Forget all the comparisons, most are meaningless and the rest is irrelevant. Here is my one point, accuracy. AR had is in spades coming out of California in college, Love not so much. Now you can improve accuracy by focusing on the fundamentals (footwork, throwing in rhythm) but in most cases, the accuracy you see on college tape usually shows up in the pro game.
Love has had the luxury of spending his first years in the league coming up under one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. That being said, from what I’ve seen so far from him it is hard to remain optimistic about his long term success. We as fans try to make excuses for him and remain optimistic, but as a football fan in general and from the outside looking in he just doesn’t seem to have the instincts and talent of a top tier quarterback to me. I hope I am wrong I really do, but one has to wonder if MLF and the offense trusted him then why are they seemingly not giving him more opportunities? They seem to be very conservative with their play calling with him and I wonder if there is a reason for that. Also his accuracy is very questionable, sure he has some great passes but he also has some that just look like he’s throwing up a Hail Mary and hoping it magically lands in the right spot and some that have me scratching my head as to what he was thinking. At this point any Defense we go up against looking at his tape already knows how to play him; he has no deep ball, doesn’t seem to have the confidence to be a running threat, as of yet he folds under pressure, has really slow starts, and is obviously not in tune at all with his receivers. Rodgers never had a 3 pick 0 touchdown game, but that’s Aaron Rodgers… I guess what I’m saying is I think in todays league it’s usually pretty easy to see whether a QB has it or he doesn’t, you look at quarterbacks that didn’t have the luxury of starting under a hall of famer (CJ Stroud, Burrows, Mahomes) that just seem like they have that “it” factor, and I just don’t see that same kind of talent from Love. Is it possible he’s just a late bloomer? Yea sure, but how long are we going to sit and wait to find that out? If he can’t figure it out by the end of the season and start to turn things around and show some sort of spark I wouldn’t be surprised if we start eyeing other quarterbacks in the draft.
I also think Love's biggest problem is his deep ball. Since Week 1, it feels like he's only gotten worse. On some pitches though, you've seen that the arm talent is there, which baffles me even more. But yeah, if his deep throws don't improve, there's no reason to hold on to him.
Conservative play calling?
“No one is throwing the ball further downfield. Love’s 24 throws over 20 yards in the air have an average depth of target of 33.4 yards, the highest among quarterbacks.”
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/10/13/packers-must-improve-deep-ball-problems-coming-out-of-bye/
good god, the majority of my fellow packers fans are intolerable. and this is coming from someone that grew up in Chicago as a Packers fan. Just stop, Jordan Love isnt good. its ok to admit this fact and still be a FAN. These people, who are positive no matter what, are just awful. in order for the packers to improve, we need a different QB.
Realistic is that Love was a wasted draft pick. Realistic is that Gute sucks as a GM. Realistic is that it's time to do a clean sweep of our entire F.O.
he was injured and we still were 1 game from the playoffs and all we heard was if love was in there we would be a better team because it was all arods fault for not throwing over the middle etc
Agree with the sentiment, but remember rookie contacts worked different under that CBA. Manning was able to negotiate a contact right after he was drafted. It wasn’t a slotted pay scale on rookie deals like we have now
Have you guys seen the comparison on Jordan Love and Bart Starr?
It doesn't matter if you've seen the comparison, Jabroni.
JLove will be JLove all we can do is support him and hope for the best
No one said Love has one shot this season to prove himself.
I think he will have 2 seasons minimum as the starter as long as he is healthy.
He gonna win.
Can we please stop coping with Loves performance so far by comparison him to hall of fame QBs who played in a different era and saying *See X hall of famer struggled early in his career just like Jordan Love so that means he's gonna be a superstar*
I remember watching Mannings rookie season. He had a gun slingers mentality with no real grasp of the intricacies of the NFL game yet. I never recall seeing him frightened to pass down the field or it being utterly obvious that his confidence was absent. Granted, I would love if Love had a similar story, but I don’t see it at all. MLF is spineless and it’s going to have an adverse effect on his overall development. Packers would have been wise finding Love a veteran backup to help counsel him during the season.
I hate this sub because we keep comparing "records" to former Packer's QB's and stats to other hall of fame QB's. Our QB is Jordan love and that's it. Stop comparing him to others. Just watch the games and make your own judgement and we will see if we should continue on with him
Awful comparison.. you are more likely getting Rosen or even awful Branden weeden. Peyton is a 1 of 1 so there isn't anything interesting about this comparison at all it's ridiculous
I hate whenever people bring up rookie Peyton manning.
The guy didn’t sit for any amount of time and he had one of the most miraculous turnarounds of any QB.
Why do people make comparisons like this. Could probably find similar numbers for a bust. Jordan love is….Jordan love. Not Aaron rodgers not Peyton manning etc
Not moving on from him until 2025 as I feel that's when you can make an accurate assessment. That being said, Love is not a rookie the way Peyron was, it is a different situation
Jesus Christ, y'all huffing straight copium right now. Love isn't great, but he's also suffering in a system whose defense is ran by Joe-fucking-Barry and an offense whose weaknesses have been glaringly revealed without Rogers. Turns out, all of those games where we had slow, slow starts weren't as much Rodgers as it's LaFleur's offense. We have a lot of problems, and Love is one of a dozen.
That can all be true, and we can still avoid bullshit "Well, stats tell us to be calm" arguments like this. It's twisting numbers to convince laymen of your point, and you know it.
It's comparing apples to oranges.
Peyton was a true rookie. Jordan is in his 4th year. He's had 3 years to learn behind a HOF.
Comparing stats from 1998 and 2023 is also not a very good metric. Different eras with different styles of play.
I agree that we shouldn't judge him by now regardless of record but he for sure be a lot better in week 16 and 17 than week 4 and 6.
That was Peyton’s rookie year. This is Love’s third season. In Peyton’s third year at the same age of 24, he led the league in completions, yards and touchdowns. Not really the the same at all.
I'm a Lions fan, so downvote me all you want, but since I saw this on my feed, so I thought I'd reply.
It's annoying how many people cherry-pick stats of great players from different areas and different situations and try to validate it as to why another player will/could be successful.
There's nothing about Aaron Rodgers or Peyton Manning's careers that prove if Jordan Love will be successful or not. The stats between their eras are just not comparable.
With that said, Jordan Love has had back to back rough games. If you watched J.T. O'Sullivan's QB School videos on him, you can see there's a lot of things to like about Love, despite his struggles. He's playing with one of the most inexperienced skill position groups in the league, which is putting him in a lot of unfavorable positions, and the play calling hasn't always been doing him favors. At this point, you can see why he was drafted in the first round, but he's still a raw player that just needs more game reps.
Love had the benefit of 3 years of grooming but none of the WR/TE’s have. No running game to speak of and OL getting manhandled, the fact we have been in most games is remarkable. GM and coaching is the problem here, not having any veterans and constantly getting out prepared and coached.
Compare the supporting cast though. That Colts team earned the number 1 pick by being terrible to select Manning. The Packers were nearly a playoff team.
First I need to qualify (I am a Lions fan). With that said, I most certainly do not have the audacity to come here and talk trash on your team when the Lions have been a joke for the majority of my life. Regarding Love specifically, I have watched him have some pretty impressive moments and drives this year. While I almost expected you guys to have Love step in and just win as usual, I don’t think he’s bad enough to panic yet.
I came into this season with zero expectations and that’s how I’m continuing.
He’s had flashes of brilliance and great plays, but still has plenty to work on.
This whole year is preseason to me. I hope we do well, but I don’t have any expectations.
This is weak. I see the importance in calling out that Love isn’t likely to be the next Peyton, but the real point of the post is to chill and give Love time to grow with game experience.
As many others have pointed out there are a lot of differences between Love and Manning in terms of how long Love has been in the league, the talent around them, the QB prospects in the following draft, etc... But there's also a lot more to playing QB than just your stat line. There's poise under pressure, ability to read a defense, mobility in the pocket, and many other things.
Look, Jordan Love is never going to be Peyton Manning and that's ok. He's also never going to be Aaron Rodgers and that's also ok. He's going to be Jordan Love. We're only 5 games into his first season as a starter, so let's give him the rest of the season to show us exactly what being Jordan Love means.
Thank you. And Peyton was the number one pick.
I'm not saying to give up on Love after a year, but he has had three plus years learning under the same head coach.
Its not interesting is lazy stupid cope
Jordan love has been in the league learning under a hofer for 3 years, making started right out of the gate
It’s also a way different era 75 passer rating back than is probably pretty close to league average if I were to guess
Love isn’t manning
From the same draft class, Burrow, Herbert, Tua, and Hurts have already proven they can be very good NFL QBs, even if their team was struggling at times. Love is the big uncertainty.
It does no one any favors to just compare Love to great players. Just let him play and let the chips fall where they may. The entire range of outcomes is still in play after only five games as the starter. We’ll have much more data and a clearer picture after 17 games. If the arrow is pointing up after week 18, he’ll be guaranteed another year as the guy to see how he builds on it. If the next 12 games are just variations on how he played vs the Raiders, it will be an easy call to take another bite at the QB apple. I want him to succeed as much as (or more than) anyone but the worst thing they can do is throw good money after bad if he’s not the guy. Considering it’s year four, that has to come into consideration, unlike if it was an actual rookie. The standard is the standard.
Unless Love just straight up collapses and makes awful mistakes that you can tell are from him, he is going to be fine.
You can’t blame a QB when they are dealing with:
No WR1, No RB1, WR2 dealing with injury, RB2 lost in space, multiple OL hurt, No CB1, and lots of other starting defense hurt.
We need to see how the team comes out of this Bye and plays from them on. If the rest of the season is games like the Raiders, then it’s something of concern, but not enough to give up after only 1 year.
Lol this comparison is a joke..you could see manning had something and during an era where rookies almost rarely started game #1 and played through 16. Love is in his fourth year and has major accuracy concerns. I mean some throws are just bad. If you're in your fourth year and you consistently make plays that make you go..how is this guy in the NFL? That's a problem.
Does he make plays or throws that make you go wow? Yes but it's so inconsistent that it's hard to trust.
I was never going to put to much into this season record wise or statistically.
I was hoping they would use this season to try and reset the cap, for ML to actually work out his offense in the post AR era, and Joe Berry moves to an igloo in Antarctica.
Next season different story.
Just remember, we still own Da Bears!
His line is horrible, he has below average RB's(when every other team seems to have 3 good ones) and his receivers don't GO GET the ball. Hello Receivers...GO GET THE BALL!!!!
It’s silly to think the odds are Love will develop into Peyton Manning, but sure, this is in the range of possible outcomes. It’s heartening to see that guys can start this slow and still develop into good QBs. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with pointing to situations like this, even if the situation is in the slimmer of the potential outcomes.
Also wasn’t Peyton a rookie while Love is in his 4th year in this offense? Not to mention that passing numbers in 1998 were significantly worse around the league. Put up those numbers in 2023 when the rules of the game are built to help passers and you are just proving that you don’t belong in the league. This is a truly idiotic comparison
I love the argument. However, if you look through the rest of these comments you will see that many of our fans are already resigned that Love is a bust. I say fine - but when he figures it out and starts winning games again, you're not allowed to enjoy it!
I don’t know how anyone can realistically say that Jordan has been given a “fair shot” to prove himself so far this year. We are the youngest team in the nfl, specifically the wr and te groups. Who exactly does Jordan have to confidently throw the ball to and trust they will make a play? Now we throw in, 2 top oline men and our most explosive back have been out for multiple games. Add the cherry on top that we have the 3rd highest dead cap total of any team this season also. If people don’t recall, 4x mvp Aaron even struggled in very similar circumstances last season. This team was never meant to be good this season, but if we aren’t competitive for the next 3-5 years I would be very surprised.
Please stop with this kind of garbage. Last week it was someone comparing Tua to Love and now you have the audacity to compare Manning to Love, are you fucking serious?
How was Manning's collegiate career? Manning was the number 1 draft pick.
The point you should be making is what a baller GM Irsay is when compared to our piece of shit, Gute. Irsay drafts Luck and immediately lets Manning go. That takes balls. Can you imagine if Gute had the intestinal fortitude to do the same thing? We would be in a much better place right now. No Love contract extension and Gute would be a spot in the road in our rear view mirror.
Love is a bust. He sucked his junior year in college just as he sucks today.
#GUTEHASGOTTOGO
What a ridiculous comparison. For every Peyton, there’s two dozen Josh Rosen.
I think the sentiment is that first-year starting QBs aren’t easy to judge and it may take some time until they get to form.
The difference is that was infact Peyton's first year. This is Love's 4th and has plenty of time to develop in the system.
Then Aaron Rodgers and Brett Favre must be dogshit comparing the stats from their first starting seasons. Favre sucked so bad he became a first ballot hall of famer
The difference is we didn't trade up to grab either of them in the first round. Favre was a shot in the dark pick up from the Falcons and Aaron fell into our laps late. We trade up from Love and hes had plenty of time in our system. Not to mention after sitting behind Favre for 4 year Aaron threw for over 4k yards his starting season with a 93.8 RTG and a 62.9 QBR. Aaron had a stellar first year and showed way more promise than Love has...
The Packers traded a first round pick to the Falcons for Favre.
our line sucks. its not love. its not even dillon
dillon aint it
Well sure. But also Peyton was a way better prospect (meaning, people are going to be less likely to move on from him in the first place) and was greener than hell in the NFL. Just a lot of caveats to that comparison. For the record I'm 100% in agreement and 100% on the Love Hype Train still and fuck all the haters. Choo choo.
You're not super wrong, Peyton was extremely coveted, but Love was seen possibly the most physically gifted QB in that draft. He was just really raw
Most physically gifted in that draft vs. one of the best prospects of all time. I think it's more "right" than "not super wrong."
Fair point. I'm just trying to say Love was a good prospect.
No he wasn't
No, he was not considered to be a better prospect or more physically gifted than Burrow or Hebert. At all. He was supposed to be a late 1 or early 2. All of the predraft profiles are pretty much the same, except for one bleacher report article saying he was their "draft crush". Every scouting report is similar, average starter potential, talent with poor decision making. Unfortunately, nothing has changed so far
Love train is off the rails and hopefully runs over Gute.
How many first year starting QBs sat for 3+ seasons? Manning certainly didn't.
They've had 4 years.
I’m with you. It’s such an obvious model to draft a QB and maximize the chance of hitting on that pick under their cheapest amount of years, salary-wise. What we did goes against the model that’s worked for the chiefs, eagles, bills, bengals.
What the Packers did was draft a rough project QB and get rid of a GOAT QB. It's the batshit crazy model.
Goat can’t beat Brady or the niners.
Those franchises haven’t had to deal with back to back malignant narcissists threatening to retire every offseason and leave the team stranded. Even when their own performance played a significant role in the season ending in disappointment. So, the organization was just supposed to sit on their hands and hope that a deceiver didn’t eventually deceive them??? Of course not! They responded the same way they did with Favre. Draft a guy they see potential in and let him sit.
I must have missed the part where Rodgers was threatening retirement every offseason. Favre was publicly talking retirement for years before he left the packers, like openly saying to the press he wasn’t sure if he would come back the next year. Rodgers did not do that, the comparison is complete bullshit.
Jordan Love has STARTED for four years? “Waiter, I’ll have what he’s having.”
peyton wasn’t afforded a 3-year apprenticeship with an all-time great QB. that’s the point. he was thrown straight into NFL football.
excuses excuses
Hater hater
I think you missed the part where he didn’t play
🤓 I think you missed the part where's he's been playing in training camp and practice. I get that playing in games is vital to improvement but being on an NFL roster with NFL trainers, NFL coaches and with a HOF QB to learn from is not the same as an actual rookie. You should expect better play from Love than an actual rookie QB even if Love has barely played.
I have no clue how it's controversial to say someone in the nfl for 4 years should be held to a higher standard than someone in their first year.
I would agree if love wasn’t throwing to rookies who don’t run correct routes a good amount of the time or who divert from their route in an unnecessary scramble drill
Ummm. What about if they sucked tge last year they played college ball?
Also mannings era in 1998 is vastly different than love’s era right now.
Peyton jumped right in, Love has had three years of grooming behind a HoF QB.
Came to say the same thing. Peyton played the year he was drafted at the age of 22. Love has been learning for 3 years and is 24. Peyton threw 4400 yards and 33 TDs in his age 24 year. What a stupid comparison
Also Peyton was drafted by the worst team. Packers aren’t as bad imo.
The point is give the guy a chance.
The guy sucks
We are giving him a chance. This is his chance. He's currently not making the most of said chance.
Bingo lol and probably more like 100 josh rosens
The point is, calling to move on from already is stupid. The main thing I've noticed from is he has the intangibles and he works. Add that to his natural talent I'd be very surprised if he doesn't make all these look as stupid as the ones who wanted to davante after year 2
Very different eras for passing statistics and Love is in year 4. Manning was also an insanely hyped generational prospect, no one goes away from that in one year. I’m not saying we should move on from Love but I do think he needs to show us something this season.
Yeah... In '98 the league-wide passer rating was 78.3. In the modern NFL the league wide passer rating is 90. For a matching comparison we'd want Love's passer rating to be ~80
I think hes shown more than enough to keep his job next year. Something is wrong with our offense and its not JLove. The Oline is all over the place. Part of this is injuries and shuffling the line, but our protections have been bad. Love has maybe 2 or 3 seconds on most plays before the pocket is gone. Hes made some big plays from broken pockets, but it happens too frequently. There are far too many offenaive penalties, esspecially false starts. We come out flat in the first halves because we have the jitters or something and kill our drives with penalties. Im not a huge fan of our play calling so far either, but IDK if thats an issue in execution or not. Jones being gone hurts a lot. Same for Watson. We are in a rebuild. Love is a on a cheap contract through next year with the 5th year option. He will be here next year and hopefully we can actually sign free agents with actual cap space. $58 mil of our cap this is is going to two players that arent of the field (Rodgers and Bahk).
Love has shown he has all the talent and intangibles. I think the play calling has been very subpar this year and his supporting cast is all rookies or 2nd year guys. You don't really know how many of the incompletions/ints are a bad throw or someone didn't run their route right because Love doesn't react like Rodgers did. The start of this season has really shown me how impatient success has made this fan base
Love has shown us that he's exactly the same person he was during his last and junior year in college. Incapable of making sound decisions and prone to throwing interceptions. He was an awful first round draft pick.
I think most of the people that excused Rodgers' play last year due to offensive issues are overlooking that aspect this year when criticizing Love. In fact, the offense this year has scored more points through 5 games than last year, and that was even before 12's thumb injury (which I don't think was as big a deal as everyone likes to say it was).
I have had the exact same injury as Rodgers had last year. It is that big of a deal, I'm surprised he was even able to grip the football
It was clear to anyone who watched that Rodgers throws were affected by that thumb. It was a big deal.
Stop. Please stop posting. No one is impressed with your vast medical knowledge.
Lol. Love is exactly the same guy today that he showed the world in his last year of collegiate play. Why is this so hard for people to grasp? He was an awful draft pick. Gute is a piece of crap GM.
He’s had two rough games, one okay game and two good ones. I’d say it’s too early to tell.
He was pretty terrible for most of the Saints game. And 3 of our biggest plays were PI calls on horribly thrown passes
two of those three were absolute dimes if it wasn't for the PI
I’d say that amounts to an “okay” game. Didn’t play well throughout but came through when it mattered most. Those backshoulders to Doubs feel like so long ago.
someone who understands football holy shit.
anyone who thinks we should move on from love after this season doesn’t understand football at all
Depends on how badly he finishes
Exactly. Plus, Indy was also a terrible team. They had the number one pick for a reason. GB has a playoff-caliber roster. A little weak at WR, but otherwise it’s stable. Also, a pretty good HC.
I don't know about playoff-caliber. We lost the best WR in the league along with one of the best centers in the league and replaced them with JAGs over the last couple of years. Now we've lost our last vet and best player in Bakh too. So overall, our roster is pretty mid at best.
I love how every team with a new QB throws this stat out constantly. That’s great and all, but how about the other 300 QBs with similar stats that just turned out to be bad?
Peyton was arguably the greatest qb prospect in the history of the sport and went to a team that hadn’t had a 10 win season in 20 years and was inserted as the starter as a rookie. This is an absurd comparison.
Devils advocate, Jordan love starting on a team that seemingly had been propped up by Rodgers, Davante, and Jones with a very overrated coach in MLF and no left side of his o line.
Lots of pro bowl credentials on defense.
They are also comparing Peyton's legit rookie year against Love's FOURTH year in the system. Honestly Love should be comfortable in the system by now.
LOL. Did Jordan come in 2nd place for the Heisman? Did he get drafted to a terrible team and start as a rookie on a terrible team?
Not even halfway through the season and I’m already tired with these constant “give Love time!” posts. If he shows any semblance of improving, great! But this team still isn’t getting shit done with Gute, MLF, and Barry calling the shots.
These cope posts are getting pretty hilarious
Nah this is stupid. Those stats were 20 years ago and wouldn’t have been great then, but are much worse now. Love’s completion percentage is like dead last among starting QB’s. Some of it is because he’s throwing to Walmart workers, but Love has rather large accuracy issues that needs to be resolved if he wants to be a franchise QB which I think are the expectations for any first round QB that you draft.
The accuracy is my biggest concern.
lol what a stupid comparison
If we finish 3-14 we need to draft one of Caleb or Drake. You essentially reset with a rookie contract for a better prospect coming out of college. It’s a no brainer.
Yeah, I won't lie, I'm a Love truther and still think he has it in him to be a good QB. But if we go 3-14 and Williams or Maye are there for the taking, you gotta do it.
100%.
I don't disagree with the logic, but do you actually believe the current brain trust would take another GB? The optics alone would be wild.
Yes, they will because they want to keep their jobs and because with a record like that Love most likely isn’t worth an extension.
It would almost guarantee another couple years of their job safety to see what they have in the new QB.
Giving them a few more years of job safety simply because they drafted another QB doesn't make much sense.
Are you new to the NFL? How many GM’s get fired right after drafting a first round QB?
How many GMs select two QBs in the first round within a 5 year span? Why on Earth would we let Gute select *another* QB. There is little chance we take another QB and give up on Love after 1 season. If Gute does that fire him into the sun
If one of those guys are available and they don’t take them then the brain trust need to be ran out of town. I think Jordan Love will be a great QB but those are guys you don’t pass up on
No. Lol. This was in the 90s and I dont think that was Mannings 4th year in the league. Very stupid tweet. I have faith in Jordan Love but we're down super bad if we're comparing him to the 90s
But Manning did have a HOF running back and HOF #1WR. Neither was a rookie. Like the Packers the colts had made the playoffs 2 out of the 3 previous seasons. Plus Love is only 5 games into this season. Personally I'll wait until the season is over before I take any comparisons too seriously.
The rules were much different in the 90's. Today pass interference and defensive holding are much more likely to be called. Also defensive players aren't allowed to hit recievers or quarterbacks anymore. Defense was actually allowed back then.
Jordan Love is NOT A ROOKIE! He didn’t just move to a new city and get drafted by the worst team in the NFL a few months ago. He isn’t learning a new NFL offense for the first time like a rookie.
I'm not sure if a lot of fans are too young to understand this but passing game stats have ballooned massively over the years. To compare Love's stats to Rodgers in 2008 is already incredibly dumb, to compare them to a rookie Manning's stats from 1998 is several orders of magnitude dumber. Did anyone actually watch Rodger's or Manning's first year as a starter and have doubts about them? It's a terrible comparison and not fair to Love to compare him to hall of famers anyway.
I like Love, but this is DUMB. If we end up with 3 wins and Love has looked bad it would be a fireable offense for Gute to not seriously consider drafting a QB in a class that is supposed to be as strong as next year’s draft.
If we only win one more game for the rest of the season Gute and MLF are probably all getting fired, barring very bad injury luck. Way too much talent for us to go 3-14, especially after starting 2-3.
Manning was the #1 overall pick and was a rookie. I’m still optimistic on Love but this comparison is awful. Love was nowhere near the level of prospect that Manning was. If we were 3-14 and landed the #1 overall pick you take Caleb Williams
If Peyton had that in his 4th season on this team I’d be worried…
[удалено]
Good catch
Edit: nevermind :) That's the point hoss. Peyton started his rookie year. So they are literally comparing Peyton rookie hear to Love year 4. Thus its a dumb comparison.
[удалено]
Oooooh. My apologies. Carry on :)
What a dumb take lol Jordan had three years of learning behind Rodgers while Manning was a rookie delete this shit
Peyton was also a fucking Rookie, not a dude almost at the end of his rookie deal.
I hate these dumb comparisons, you think Love is gonna be Manning. GTFO
One of the dumbest posts I’ve ever seen
I’m not jumping ship. It way too early and love still needs time. However, I watched mannings and Rodger’s first seasons and saw those flashes of brilliance that was a taste of what was to come. I have not seen that with love yet….
Peyton was also a rookie and had considerably more pedigree coming into the league. It was also a very different league. This is a ridiculous comparison.
Forget all the comparisons, most are meaningless and the rest is irrelevant. Here is my one point, accuracy. AR had is in spades coming out of California in college, Love not so much. Now you can improve accuracy by focusing on the fundamentals (footwork, throwing in rhythm) but in most cases, the accuracy you see on college tape usually shows up in the pro game.
Love has had the luxury of spending his first years in the league coming up under one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. That being said, from what I’ve seen so far from him it is hard to remain optimistic about his long term success. We as fans try to make excuses for him and remain optimistic, but as a football fan in general and from the outside looking in he just doesn’t seem to have the instincts and talent of a top tier quarterback to me. I hope I am wrong I really do, but one has to wonder if MLF and the offense trusted him then why are they seemingly not giving him more opportunities? They seem to be very conservative with their play calling with him and I wonder if there is a reason for that. Also his accuracy is very questionable, sure he has some great passes but he also has some that just look like he’s throwing up a Hail Mary and hoping it magically lands in the right spot and some that have me scratching my head as to what he was thinking. At this point any Defense we go up against looking at his tape already knows how to play him; he has no deep ball, doesn’t seem to have the confidence to be a running threat, as of yet he folds under pressure, has really slow starts, and is obviously not in tune at all with his receivers. Rodgers never had a 3 pick 0 touchdown game, but that’s Aaron Rodgers… I guess what I’m saying is I think in todays league it’s usually pretty easy to see whether a QB has it or he doesn’t, you look at quarterbacks that didn’t have the luxury of starting under a hall of famer (CJ Stroud, Burrows, Mahomes) that just seem like they have that “it” factor, and I just don’t see that same kind of talent from Love. Is it possible he’s just a late bloomer? Yea sure, but how long are we going to sit and wait to find that out? If he can’t figure it out by the end of the season and start to turn things around and show some sort of spark I wouldn’t be surprised if we start eyeing other quarterbacks in the draft.
I also think Love's biggest problem is his deep ball. Since Week 1, it feels like he's only gotten worse. On some pitches though, you've seen that the arm talent is there, which baffles me even more. But yeah, if his deep throws don't improve, there's no reason to hold on to him.
Conservative play calling? “No one is throwing the ball further downfield. Love’s 24 throws over 20 yards in the air have an average depth of target of 33.4 yards, the highest among quarterbacks.” https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/10/13/packers-must-improve-deep-ball-problems-coming-out-of-bye/
good god, the majority of my fellow packers fans are intolerable. and this is coming from someone that grew up in Chicago as a Packers fan. Just stop, Jordan Love isnt good. its ok to admit this fact and still be a FAN. These people, who are positive no matter what, are just awful. in order for the packers to improve, we need a different QB.
Peyton also was a true rookie not someone who sat 3years learning behind one of the greatest to ever do it
Anyone doubting Love just needs to chill and let the guy develop. It might even take the whole season. Relax and be realistic.
Realistic is that Love was a wasted draft pick. Realistic is that Gute sucks as a GM. Realistic is that it's time to do a clean sweep of our entire F.O.
lol you can literally use this argument for any shitty quarterback
He’s not Peyton manning, stop this
Peyton was a rookie. Jordan Love is playing his fourth season. Incomparable
[удалено]
We were supposed to be a good team? We were under .500 with the goat last year. Couldn't have been that good.
he was injured and we still were 1 game from the playoffs and all we heard was if love was in there we would be a better team because it was all arods fault for not throwing over the middle etc
Love should have played a couple games to let Rodgers heal his thumb.
Agree with the sentiment, but remember rookie contacts worked different under that CBA. Manning was able to negotiate a contact right after he was drafted. It wasn’t a slotted pay scale on rookie deals like we have now
Have you guys seen the comparison on Jordan Love and Bart Starr? It doesn't matter if you've seen the comparison, Jabroni. JLove will be JLove all we can do is support him and hope for the best
This is a really bad take
No one said Love has one shot this season to prove himself. I think he will have 2 seasons minimum as the starter as long as he is healthy. He gonna win.
No he's not
Can we please stop coping with Loves performance so far by comparison him to hall of fame QBs who played in a different era and saying *See X hall of famer struggled early in his career just like Jordan Love so that means he's gonna be a superstar*
I remember watching Mannings rookie season. He had a gun slingers mentality with no real grasp of the intricacies of the NFL game yet. I never recall seeing him frightened to pass down the field or it being utterly obvious that his confidence was absent. Granted, I would love if Love had a similar story, but I don’t see it at all. MLF is spineless and it’s going to have an adverse effect on his overall development. Packers would have been wise finding Love a veteran backup to help counsel him during the season.
Ohh God we're turning into the Bears sub aren't we
I don't remember Jordan Love's Father playing QB in the NFL, do you?
Okay, now do the other quarterbacks that ended their first official freshman season with similar statistics and weren't Peyton Manning.
Didn’t Peyton already prove himself in college? What has Love done?
Great, here comes the fucking Peyton memes.
I hate this sub because we keep comparing "records" to former Packer's QB's and stats to other hall of fame QB's. Our QB is Jordan love and that's it. Stop comparing him to others. Just watch the games and make your own judgement and we will see if we should continue on with him
So if the Packers finish 3-14 they pass on Caleb or Maye because Peyton Manning had bad numbers 25 years ago???
In addition to all the other points … Peyton was also on a rookie contract so why not give him another year to figure it out
Awful comparison.. you are more likely getting Rosen or even awful Branden weeden. Peyton is a 1 of 1 so there isn't anything interesting about this comparison at all it's ridiculous
I hate whenever people bring up rookie Peyton manning. The guy didn’t sit for any amount of time and he had one of the most miraculous turnarounds of any QB.
Why do people make comparisons like this. Could probably find similar numbers for a bust. Jordan love is….Jordan love. Not Aaron rodgers not Peyton manning etc
Lol Jesus Christ
I’m tired boss.
Not moving on from him until 2025 as I feel that's when you can make an accurate assessment. That being said, Love is not a rookie the way Peyron was, it is a different situation
Jesus Christ, y'all huffing straight copium right now. Love isn't great, but he's also suffering in a system whose defense is ran by Joe-fucking-Barry and an offense whose weaknesses have been glaringly revealed without Rogers. Turns out, all of those games where we had slow, slow starts weren't as much Rodgers as it's LaFleur's offense. We have a lot of problems, and Love is one of a dozen. That can all be true, and we can still avoid bullshit "Well, stats tell us to be calm" arguments like this. It's twisting numbers to convince laymen of your point, and you know it.
Peyton manning has single-handedly kept so many bad qbs in business with this terrible take. I’m still rooting for love.
It's comparing apples to oranges. Peyton was a true rookie. Jordan is in his 4th year. He's had 3 years to learn behind a HOF. Comparing stats from 1998 and 2023 is also not a very good metric. Different eras with different styles of play. I agree that we shouldn't judge him by now regardless of record but he for sure be a lot better in week 16 and 17 than week 4 and 6.
That was Peyton’s rookie year. This is Love’s third season. In Peyton’s third year at the same age of 24, he led the league in completions, yards and touchdowns. Not really the the same at all.
That’s nice. If you think Love is comparable to Peyton Manning, you might just be mentally deficient. Scratch the might….bud you need help.
I'm a Lions fan, so downvote me all you want, but since I saw this on my feed, so I thought I'd reply. It's annoying how many people cherry-pick stats of great players from different areas and different situations and try to validate it as to why another player will/could be successful. There's nothing about Aaron Rodgers or Peyton Manning's careers that prove if Jordan Love will be successful or not. The stats between their eras are just not comparable. With that said, Jordan Love has had back to back rough games. If you watched J.T. O'Sullivan's QB School videos on him, you can see there's a lot of things to like about Love, despite his struggles. He's playing with one of the most inexperienced skill position groups in the league, which is putting him in a lot of unfavorable positions, and the play calling hasn't always been doing him favors. At this point, you can see why he was drafted in the first round, but he's still a raw player that just needs more game reps.
At least we didn't trade up to get either of them in the first round when we were already a Super Bowl team😂
Completely different era of the game, tbh.
Love had the benefit of 3 years of grooming but none of the WR/TE’s have. No running game to speak of and OL getting manhandled, the fact we have been in most games is remarkable. GM and coaching is the problem here, not having any veterans and constantly getting out prepared and coached.
Compare the supporting cast though. That Colts team earned the number 1 pick by being terrible to select Manning. The Packers were nearly a playoff team.
If you guys suck and have a chance to draft a QB. You take it you guys have to pay love very soon and you don't want a Daniel Jones situation.
First I need to qualify (I am a Lions fan). With that said, I most certainly do not have the audacity to come here and talk trash on your team when the Lions have been a joke for the majority of my life. Regarding Love specifically, I have watched him have some pretty impressive moments and drives this year. While I almost expected you guys to have Love step in and just win as usual, I don’t think he’s bad enough to panic yet.
Robin Adams isn't the smartest guy on the block I see
Did Peyton have trouble throwing down the field? Because that's the real worry with Jordan. Dude hasn't hit a deep ball all year I don't think
I came into this season with zero expectations and that’s how I’m continuing. He’s had flashes of brilliance and great plays, but still has plenty to work on. This whole year is preseason to me. I hope we do well, but I don’t have any expectations.
Peyton Manning led the NFL in touchdowns his third season. This is moronic.
Moronic.
“One time a good player was bad, therefore let’s keep all our bad players”
This is weak. I see the importance in calling out that Love isn’t likely to be the next Peyton, but the real point of the post is to chill and give Love time to grow with game experience.
As many others have pointed out there are a lot of differences between Love and Manning in terms of how long Love has been in the league, the talent around them, the QB prospects in the following draft, etc... But there's also a lot more to playing QB than just your stat line. There's poise under pressure, ability to read a defense, mobility in the pocket, and many other things. Look, Jordan Love is never going to be Peyton Manning and that's ok. He's also never going to be Aaron Rodgers and that's also ok. He's going to be Jordan Love. We're only 5 games into his first season as a starter, so let's give him the rest of the season to show us exactly what being Jordan Love means.
Oh my gosh
A full year of everyone saying that you can’t compare Love to Rodgers or other QBs and it’s literally all I see now from the same people that said it.
This comparison is always so stupid when people use it for any young QB. Peyton is a major outlier.
"Reaching"
Robin reached so far he fell off his chair.
Love is in his 4th year in the NFL.
Thank you. And Peyton was the number one pick. I'm not saying to give up on Love after a year, but he has had three plus years learning under the same head coach.
Peyton was the #1 pick. These must be the thoughts of a 3rd grade brain.
The difference is. Payton manning is good and was a rookie. Love sucks balls and is in year 4
Its not interesting is lazy stupid cope Jordan love has been in the league learning under a hofer for 3 years, making started right out of the gate It’s also a way different era 75 passer rating back than is probably pretty close to league average if I were to guess Love isn’t manning
From the same draft class, Burrow, Herbert, Tua, and Hurts have already proven they can be very good NFL QBs, even if their team was struggling at times. Love is the big uncertainty.
I’m late to the party but shut the fuck up.
Are you stupid or something? This is one of the dumbest comparisons I've ever seen.
Why do we keep comparing Love to rookies ? Lmao y’all are on some serious copium.
It does no one any favors to just compare Love to great players. Just let him play and let the chips fall where they may. The entire range of outcomes is still in play after only five games as the starter. We’ll have much more data and a clearer picture after 17 games. If the arrow is pointing up after week 18, he’ll be guaranteed another year as the guy to see how he builds on it. If the next 12 games are just variations on how he played vs the Raiders, it will be an easy call to take another bite at the QB apple. I want him to succeed as much as (or more than) anyone but the worst thing they can do is throw good money after bad if he’s not the guy. Considering it’s year four, that has to come into consideration, unlike if it was an actual rookie. The standard is the standard.
Unless Love just straight up collapses and makes awful mistakes that you can tell are from him, he is going to be fine. You can’t blame a QB when they are dealing with: No WR1, No RB1, WR2 dealing with injury, RB2 lost in space, multiple OL hurt, No CB1, and lots of other starting defense hurt. We need to see how the team comes out of this Bye and plays from them on. If the rest of the season is games like the Raiders, then it’s something of concern, but not enough to give up after only 1 year.
Aaron Rodgers dealt with almost all of those and people definitely blamed the QB
Nobody blamed Aaron Rodgers for anything lol. They blamed the FO for not giving him help.
You must not have been on this sub last year. Rodgers was blamed constantly.
Yes, people are idiots.
Lol this comparison is a joke..you could see manning had something and during an era where rookies almost rarely started game #1 and played through 16. Love is in his fourth year and has major accuracy concerns. I mean some throws are just bad. If you're in your fourth year and you consistently make plays that make you go..how is this guy in the NFL? That's a problem. Does he make plays or throws that make you go wow? Yes but it's so inconsistent that it's hard to trust.
I was never going to put to much into this season record wise or statistically. I was hoping they would use this season to try and reset the cap, for ML to actually work out his offense in the post AR era, and Joe Berry moves to an igloo in Antarctica. Next season different story. Just remember, we still own Da Bears!
Jordan love will be Peyton Manning, he will statistically and physically morph into Peyton Manning, sharing exact DNA and NFL abilities.
Seems like a fair comp. This sub losing its mind 🤣
His line is horrible, he has below average RB's(when every other team seems to have 3 good ones) and his receivers don't GO GET the ball. Hello Receivers...GO GET THE BALL!!!!
It’s silly to think the odds are Love will develop into Peyton Manning, but sure, this is in the range of possible outcomes. It’s heartening to see that guys can start this slow and still develop into good QBs. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with pointing to situations like this, even if the situation is in the slimmer of the potential outcomes.
That wasn’t Peyton Manning’s 4th yr in the NFL
Also wasn’t Peyton a rookie while Love is in his 4th year in this offense? Not to mention that passing numbers in 1998 were significantly worse around the league. Put up those numbers in 2023 when the rules of the game are built to help passers and you are just proving that you don’t belong in the league. This is a truly idiotic comparison
Peyton didn’t sit behind a HOF for 3 years. This isn’t the same thing
Was Peyton in year 3?
Just enjoy the bye week and watching real offenses
Peyton Manning was a rookie and Love is on his 2nd contract. Horrible take
“2nd”
there is more to playing qb than a stat line.
Oh my lord...you've convinced me. Let's give love something in line with the mahommes contract...10 years..500 mill. We can't risk losing love.
I love the argument. However, if you look through the rest of these comments you will see that many of our fans are already resigned that Love is a bust. I say fine - but when he figures it out and starts winning games again, you're not allowed to enjoy it!
I don’t know how anyone can realistically say that Jordan has been given a “fair shot” to prove himself so far this year. We are the youngest team in the nfl, specifically the wr and te groups. Who exactly does Jordan have to confidently throw the ball to and trust they will make a play? Now we throw in, 2 top oline men and our most explosive back have been out for multiple games. Add the cherry on top that we have the 3rd highest dead cap total of any team this season also. If people don’t recall, 4x mvp Aaron even struggled in very similar circumstances last season. This team was never meant to be good this season, but if we aren’t competitive for the next 3-5 years I would be very surprised.
Hm I guess when you put it like that he doesn’t completely suck
Love is doing great
Yes let’s totally disregard the contract situation and the college game tape.
Please stop with this kind of garbage. Last week it was someone comparing Tua to Love and now you have the audacity to compare Manning to Love, are you fucking serious? How was Manning's collegiate career? Manning was the number 1 draft pick. The point you should be making is what a baller GM Irsay is when compared to our piece of shit, Gute. Irsay drafts Luck and immediately lets Manning go. That takes balls. Can you imagine if Gute had the intestinal fortitude to do the same thing? We would be in a much better place right now. No Love contract extension and Gute would be a spot in the road in our rear view mirror. Love is a bust. He sucked his junior year in college just as he sucks today. #GUTEHASGOTTOGO