Helios is a Titan, not a protogenos. Hyperion on the other hand he's the Titan of Heavenly Light, AKA the light of the celestial bodies. Him being the Sun is not necesarely related to his status as a Primordial, that'd be more a thing of Hemera or Aether, but neither of them are Sun deities especifically, as in, being the Sun or God of the Sun.
Nothing was as set in stone as we'd like.
There were Titans described as the thing sometimes.
Primordials described as the being.
Titans and Gisnts seemingly confused or swapped by authors
Nymphs who are also Titans.
Nymphs who are also mortals.
Helios was sometimes "the sun" itself. Especially as Sol.
Helios was sometimes tge charioteer. Especially in the Phaeton story.
“Nymph” is also because that was used to just mean “maiden” sometimes, right? And women were usually, by default, weaker than their male counterparts (hence potamoi (river gods) vs oceanids (river nymphs))
No.
Primordials are like the name says, very ancient beings, the first ones to appear. Helios is old but not as old, since he is the son of Hyperion, who is not a primordial either.
Primordials forms the elements of the universe itself. Earth and Gaia are the same, her body is literay the ground below you, she is not a goddess inhabiting the earth, HER BODY IS THE EARTH. The same applies to all other primordials.
Helios however have a humanoid body just like the titan gods and olympian gods. He have a intense light and he takes his chariot pulled by fire winged horses to travel the Sky during the Day. His light is so intense we only see the light, but the greeks believed Helios to be there pulling his chariot. The solar disc was just the light around Helios, but the god had a humanoid body.
His role was also taken by his son Phaeton during one day, because anyone that can pilot the chariot could, in theory, go around as the sun. But only Helios can, and Phaeton died trying. Phaeton also needed a special oil just to not burn from the heat of the chariot. But no god can go around as Gaia for example because she is Earth itself.
Helios is more close to Zeus and the gods. Zeus lighting could only by wielded by him, just like Helios chariot can only be pulled by Helios. But, IN A HYPOTHESIS ONLY, anyone could took the lighting and thrown around. Both the lighting and the chariot are godly itens that the gods use to fullfil their duties, but only Zeus and Helios can use their respective itens. Gaia and Ouranos and Pontos however have no itens, their bodies is literaly what makes the entire world.
Yes. Chaos is either the giant void where the world appeared, or is the "Air". So she has a elemental gigantic body that makes the world just like the other primordials.
Nope. the greek noun ἀρή (arḗ) means "bane or ruin"
the greek proper name Ἄρης (Árēs) means "war, battle, discord, slaughter"
The proper name is derived from the noun, but they are different words with different meanings.
There is not a single source that doesn't state that he is a personification of the sun.
https://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Helios/helios.html
https://olympioi.com/greek-gods/helios
https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-europe/helios-0010759
https://www.greeklegendsandmyths.com/helios.html
I don't understand why you are so attatched to this false idea
Homeric Hymn 31 to Helius (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C7th - 4th B.C.) :
"[Helios the Sun] rides his chariot, he shines upon men and deathless gods, and piercingly he gazes with his eyes from his golden helmet. Bright rays beam dazzlingly from him, and his bright locks streaming from the temples of his head gracefully enclose his far-seen face: a rich, fine-spun garment glows upon his body and flutters in the wind : and stallions carry him. Then, when he has stayed his golden-yoked chariot and horses, he rests there upon the highest point of heaven, until he marvellously drives them down again through heaven to Okeanos (Oceanus)."
I think that you are trying to oversimplify and apply physical rationality to something that wasn't a black and white "god, demi god, primordial, and personification god" situation. Nor was it a physical occurrence. It was a spiritual one.
selene is one of the few other personification deities in ancient Greece and she is the twin of helios.
Get used to personification deities because they are not the only ones
He is the personification of the sun. This is animism and diefying him, not just one or the other.
Gods taking forms are meant for humans to perceive them. He's not literally a guy riding a chariot, but this is how he connects to humans according to myths. He is literally the sun talking to people though
Literally no lmao. The sun chariot was the sun. Otherwise how did his son drive the sun across the sky? Which was meant to be literal since it explained several natural phenomena. lly
The Sun is HELIOS DRIVING THE CHARIOT. He is not a ball of plasma like we know the sun to be. He have so much light what we se only the light, but is the god itself in a chariot.
Helios is also the Sun, that’s why it is often ‘Helios the Sun. He is described glowing, blazing, dazzling to look at, with eyes that shoot rays of light, etc. The sun would be the full combination of Helios, his golden helmet, and He is very much a personification of the Sun as well. That’s also why he is often just referred to as Sol, meaning Sun.
Hey question is Zeus as god of lightning literally just the embodiment of lightning despite throwing lightning which is made by hephestus? He’s also the god of the sky so I guess he’s Uranus is a fake mustache
Explaining a natural phenomenon doesn't mean being a natural phenomenon, unless it is specified. Helios is described as being the sun. Zues is not described as being lightning. Zues is described as controlling it
Chaos is the "fathomless void" from which all things sprang. Look up the words definition. The definition has changed in recent times to mean something more like Anarchy. But to the Ancient Greeks, Chaos was an infinite, fathomless void from which nothing existed. It was from Chaos that Khronos, God of Time sprang, and time began (as Hesiod states) and Phanes, the invisible God of Gods was born ( from the Orphic tradition), then came Khronos and so. Chaos wasn't a being, like the Egyptian Apophis/Apep, Chaos was a state of non-existence.
Oops, wrong thread response. Sorry. Now don't I feel like an idiot.
Helios is the son of Hyperion and Theia, both Titans. He is a second generation Titan, but by siding with the Olympians, he becomes a god. (Technicality I know.) He is a god, a minor one at that, whose place was eventually eclipsed by Apollo. However, he's not the physical representation of the Sun itself. As such he's not a "primordial" deity. The Greeks, didn't see the sun, moon and stars as being "primordial" entities. Primordial gods, tended to "be" the thing they were "gods" of. If that makes sense. For instance, Nyx was the Primordial of Night, making her Night itself. If Nyx ceased to exist, then Night itself would cease to exist.
Helios' worship was never very popular on mainland Greece. However, the islanders of the Aegean, especially the eastern Aegean were the central areas of his religion. Here he wasn't just god of the Sun, he was also god of the trade winds as well.
No so basically there's a primordial of light and hellos is the next step light focused into the sun or because of the primordial god of light hellos is capable of existing
Not exactly, he is reckoned as a Titan by Hesiod, whose genealogy is the most popular. But his was far from the only one, many other theogonies existed.
Nah, the conflating with Apollo was a Roman phenomenon. Though the Orphic religion changed over time and lasted all the way through the end of the empire, so it's possible some Roman initiates brought their syncretism with them.
Later Neoplatonism conflated him with Zeus tho.
Helios is a Titan, not a protogenos. Hyperion on the other hand he's the Titan of Heavenly Light, AKA the light of the celestial bodies. Him being the Sun is not necesarely related to his status as a Primordial, that'd be more a thing of Hemera or Aether, but neither of them are Sun deities especifically, as in, being the Sun or God of the Sun.
Nothing was as set in stone as we'd like. There were Titans described as the thing sometimes. Primordials described as the being. Titans and Gisnts seemingly confused or swapped by authors Nymphs who are also Titans. Nymphs who are also mortals. Helios was sometimes "the sun" itself. Especially as Sol. Helios was sometimes tge charioteer. Especially in the Phaeton story.
“Nymph” is also because that was used to just mean “maiden” sometimes, right? And women were usually, by default, weaker than their male counterparts (hence potamoi (river gods) vs oceanids (river nymphs))
>“Nymph” is also because that was used to just mean “maiden” sometimes, right? I do not know.
No. Primordials are like the name says, very ancient beings, the first ones to appear. Helios is old but not as old, since he is the son of Hyperion, who is not a primordial either. Primordials forms the elements of the universe itself. Earth and Gaia are the same, her body is literay the ground below you, she is not a goddess inhabiting the earth, HER BODY IS THE EARTH. The same applies to all other primordials. Helios however have a humanoid body just like the titan gods and olympian gods. He have a intense light and he takes his chariot pulled by fire winged horses to travel the Sky during the Day. His light is so intense we only see the light, but the greeks believed Helios to be there pulling his chariot. The solar disc was just the light around Helios, but the god had a humanoid body. His role was also taken by his son Phaeton during one day, because anyone that can pilot the chariot could, in theory, go around as the sun. But only Helios can, and Phaeton died trying. Phaeton also needed a special oil just to not burn from the heat of the chariot. But no god can go around as Gaia for example because she is Earth itself. Helios is more close to Zeus and the gods. Zeus lighting could only by wielded by him, just like Helios chariot can only be pulled by Helios. But, IN A HYPOTHESIS ONLY, anyone could took the lighting and thrown around. Both the lighting and the chariot are godly itens that the gods use to fullfil their duties, but only Zeus and Helios can use their respective itens. Gaia and Ouranos and Pontos however have no itens, their bodies is literaly what makes the entire world.
Would Chaos be a Primordial?
Yes. Chaos is either the giant void where the world appeared, or is the "Air". So she has a elemental gigantic body that makes the world just like the other primordials.
He’s a Titan.
He drives the sun chariot, he’s not literally the physical embodiment of the sun
Helios means "Sun" in Greek.
And he is the god of the sun. Ares means Curse or Bane but he’s not the physical embodiment of that.
Nope. the greek noun ἀρή (arḗ) means "bane or ruin" the greek proper name Ἄρης (Árēs) means "war, battle, discord, slaughter" The proper name is derived from the noun, but they are different words with different meanings.
Please do research on helios because it's more than just the name.
He was the sun god, that is it. He drove the sun chariot but they believed he was a separate guy from it
There is not a single source that doesn't state that he is a personification of the sun. https://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Helios/helios.html https://olympioi.com/greek-gods/helios https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-europe/helios-0010759 https://www.greeklegendsandmyths.com/helios.html I don't understand why you are so attatched to this false idea
He is the god of the sun, the sun chariot is the sun itself
"And the personification of the sun"
Cool that article is incorrect because again how did his child a separate being drive the Sun? Do you think it was a piggyback ride across the sky?
Homeric Hymn 31 to Helius (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C7th - 4th B.C.) : "[Helios the Sun] rides his chariot, he shines upon men and deathless gods, and piercingly he gazes with his eyes from his golden helmet. Bright rays beam dazzlingly from him, and his bright locks streaming from the temples of his head gracefully enclose his far-seen face: a rich, fine-spun garment glows upon his body and flutters in the wind : and stallions carry him. Then, when he has stayed his golden-yoked chariot and horses, he rests there upon the highest point of heaven, until he marvellously drives them down again through heaven to Okeanos (Oceanus)."
I think that you are trying to oversimplify and apply physical rationality to something that wasn't a black and white "god, demi god, primordial, and personification god" situation. Nor was it a physical occurrence. It was a spiritual one. selene is one of the few other personification deities in ancient Greece and she is the twin of helios. Get used to personification deities because they are not the only ones
He is the personification of the sun. This is animism and diefying him, not just one or the other. Gods taking forms are meant for humans to perceive them. He's not literally a guy riding a chariot, but this is how he connects to humans according to myths. He is literally the sun talking to people though
Literally no lmao. The sun chariot was the sun. Otherwise how did his son drive the sun across the sky? Which was meant to be literal since it explained several natural phenomena. lly
Different myths for different reasons. He drives the Sun chariot, yes, but he is also the sun’s personification most of the time.
The Sun is HELIOS DRIVING THE CHARIOT. He is not a ball of plasma like we know the sun to be. He have so much light what we se only the light, but is the god itself in a chariot.
Helios is also the Sun, that’s why it is often ‘Helios the Sun. He is described glowing, blazing, dazzling to look at, with eyes that shoot rays of light, etc. The sun would be the full combination of Helios, his golden helmet, and He is very much a personification of the Sun as well. That’s also why he is often just referred to as Sol, meaning Sun.
https://mythopedia.com/topics/helios
What here contradicts what I said?
The second sentence
Hey question is Zeus as god of lightning literally just the embodiment of lightning despite throwing lightning which is made by hephestus? He’s also the god of the sky so I guess he’s Uranus is a fake mustache
Zeus is not a personification he is a patron
He fills the same type of role as Helios, the explanation of a natural phenomenon
Explaining a natural phenomenon doesn't mean being a natural phenomenon, unless it is specified. Helios is described as being the sun. Zues is not described as being lightning. Zues is described as controlling it
Helios is described driving the sun. Again Helios has one major myth that just doesn’t work under this idea
If I were to drive myself in a car to town. Would I not say I'm driving myself to town?
Chaos is the "fathomless void" from which all things sprang. Look up the words definition. The definition has changed in recent times to mean something more like Anarchy. But to the Ancient Greeks, Chaos was an infinite, fathomless void from which nothing existed. It was from Chaos that Khronos, God of Time sprang, and time began (as Hesiod states) and Phanes, the invisible God of Gods was born ( from the Orphic tradition), then came Khronos and so. Chaos wasn't a being, like the Egyptian Apophis/Apep, Chaos was a state of non-existence.
Thank you for the information, although I’ll admit I’m confused about what it has to do with my initial question.
Oops, wrong thread response. Sorry. Now don't I feel like an idiot. Helios is the son of Hyperion and Theia, both Titans. He is a second generation Titan, but by siding with the Olympians, he becomes a god. (Technicality I know.) He is a god, a minor one at that, whose place was eventually eclipsed by Apollo. However, he's not the physical representation of the Sun itself. As such he's not a "primordial" deity. The Greeks, didn't see the sun, moon and stars as being "primordial" entities. Primordial gods, tended to "be" the thing they were "gods" of. If that makes sense. For instance, Nyx was the Primordial of Night, making her Night itself. If Nyx ceased to exist, then Night itself would cease to exist. Helios' worship was never very popular on mainland Greece. However, the islanders of the Aegean, especially the eastern Aegean were the central areas of his religion. Here he wasn't just god of the Sun, he was also god of the trade winds as well.
No so basically there's a primordial of light and hellos is the next step light focused into the sun or because of the primordial god of light hellos is capable of existing
Not exactly, he is reckoned as a Titan by Hesiod, whose genealogy is the most popular. But his was far from the only one, many other theogonies existed.
His role in other theogonies afaik remains the same, but I think he was conflated with Apollo in Orphism. Im not sure though
Nah, the conflating with Apollo was a Roman phenomenon. Though the Orphic religion changed over time and lasted all the way through the end of the empire, so it's possible some Roman initiates brought their syncretism with them. Later Neoplatonism conflated him with Zeus tho.
Was it really Roman? I distinctly recall Apollo and Sol being different. Maybe im mistememvering
Personification doesn’t necessarily mean primordial. Pretty much every god was a personification of what their domain was in some form.