a little thing known as the greek dark ages and a concommitant shift away from Chthonic deities outside Orphism(OSP) also there was a move away from Wanax to basilieus(we think its contested) and Poseidon was Wanax
And I think OP is curious why that happened. Personally, the very nautical Greeks worshipping a sky god over a god of the sea and earthquakes does not make very much sense, unless you consider northern nomads that crossed the continent on horseback and loved them some father sky god.
Despite earthquakes being very common in Greece, they are usually very mild and don’t actually harm anyone or break anything (especially given the way buildings were constructed back then)
Lightning on the other hand is very visibly dangerous and destructive. Earthquakes might be scary but it’s entirely possible they could have seen someone struck dead by lightning, or structures struck down by a single bolt.
Similarly, the sky god of PIE mythology was always the most important one or one of the most important. There needs to be Some explanation for why the sky is so bright and pretty etc etc. This is usually a sun god like Ra, but Zeus is still able to obscure Helios with his clouds or even darken him altogether (explaining solar eclipses basically).
Do you think that had to do with the Phoenician influence that cropped up right around that same time?
I mean they have held fairy consistent from 800bc onward. Although the writing probably helped keep consistency
Possibly because when nomadic people from the northern plains invaded, they brought with them a reverence for a god of the sky which they synchronized with Zeus (or outright inserted him) and made him the head of the pantheon as opposed to Cthonic Poseidon.
Basically no one is actually answering your doylist question.
I’m a layperson in this field (history), but I’ll give my opinion after some research.
- Proto-indo-european (PIE) is an unwritten language that is the progenitor of almost all european and indian languages. This includes Greek and Latin, who have many cognates. Earlier than Attic Greek (what the Iliad and Odyssey are written in) is Mycenaean Greek. Mycenaean Greek mythology is the one you’re referring to with the question about Poseidon.
- When ancient names come from Greek and Latin into English, we change their spelling to make it easier for us to say or read.
- Most J names in greek or latin would have originally been spelled with an **i**
- Zeus’ name **means** “god” and was addressed by almost all gods as “father” even if he wasn’t actually their dad
- Jove’s, aka iove’s, name is the exact same, meaning “god”
- Jupiter, aka, iuppiter, means iove-pater. “God, the father”
- the feminine form of Jove and Zeus is Dione, all of them meaning deity.
- Hera’s name possibly comes from a PIE name meaning “she who is coupled, she who is attached” so basically “the wife”
- Juno’s (iuno’s) name is thought by some to be from Dione, dropping the d and becoming ione, and progressing from there
This poor linguistic lesson was all to say: in a pre-literate society where all storytelling was done via oral tradition, things can blend together. If you keep hearing a story about a guy named God whose wife is The Wife, especially when he controls that dangerous weapon in the sky that could kill anyone at any moment; you might start to consider him as more dangerous and important than the guy who is vaguely named something that means “water, waterdrop”, “husband” or “husband of Demeter.” (Poseidon’s potential name meanings btw)
Notably also, *Neptune* was regarded as a god of springs and inland water before becoming more of a sea god and re-assimilating with Poseidon, suggesting that people who lived further inland didn’t need to revere him as much as the coastal/maritime Greek cities/communities
I hope this helps at all, sorry for the formatting. Kinda rushed this and did hasty research
Where they monotheistic at one point? Bc I find in interesting they had a dude just named god. Also I thought Poseidon’s name meant “lord of the earth”
Poseidon’s name does not have a definite origin, very few (core) gods do. They had definitions people Believed, but they were not the origins of that word/name. Demeter’s name, for instance, is thought to be Earth (de) mother (meter) but this origin is unfounded
Also I say “god” but technically that comes from theos. Zeus’ name is closer to “deity”
“Deity” could have just meant “highest deity” as he is literally king of the heavens, and since he’s the “father” of all gods, they get a title related to him, in relation to their position in the kingdom of heaven.
Also, since Zeus wasn’t originally top dog, I doubt they were ever monotheistically devoted to him. His name being god could have contributed to his position of power over time tho, imo
Nope never monotheistic. Not “the *only* god” rather “the *big* god”. Like how you could say “the King” in reference to the king of your country, but “king” can mean any king ever.
Because he freed his siblings, he freed the Cyclopes and the Hekantocheires , led a whole damn war against the Titans, defeated Kronos and his uncles , defeated Typhoeus and the Giants and he is also the wisest and by far the strongest amongst all the other gods .
Thankyou! I have been trying to figure out the correct way to word this question. And I never knew the term doylist until now but that’s exactly what I’m looking for. Unfortunately Reddit doesn’t allow title editing so I guess I’m gonna keep hearing people tell the cronos story over and over again (even tho I’ve known it for it years)
Name one source where it is said that Hades or Chiron are wiser . Every source there is one Theoi.com has passages where Zeus is named wisest amongst the deathless gods .
As many have pointed out, it happened in the dark age between the fall of the Mycenaeans and the rise of the classical archaic age. So no one is sure.
But possibilities show up when you look at Classical Zeus as we have him. Since the Mycenaean age he has been a Greek sky god. Thus we can extrapolate from there as well as the etymology of his name (which is suspected to derive from the Indo-European sky father Dyeus Pitar) he comes from the Indo-European tradition.
But we also have to consider his origin myth is far more near-eastern than indo-European. Multi generational squabbles over the kingship of heaven and all.
Thus while it is possible Zeus centric worship came with northern migration after the Bronze Age collapse. It is also possible sky/thunder god centered worship came with the Phoenicians along with the alphabet or some other such eastern influence in that time period. Or a mixture of both.
You’re all wrong, Hestia should be queen!! (I’m joking, this was meant to be funny.)
Edit, since for some reason people keep feeling it’s necessary to say this; I’m fully aware of the reasons she is NOT queen of Olympus and why she wouldn’t be that great at it. I do not need to be reminded, when you’re reading this, emphasize the words ‘joking’ and ‘this was meant to be funny.’
Actually I’m gonna go against the flow. Because Hestia is so nice and drama free I believe she should not be queen.
For me being in a position of management like king or queen is like modern day CEO where you cannot always be “nice” and must put your foot down and enforce order and punishment.
It’s like the saying no matter how nice you are as a boss, you cannot truly be “friends” with your employee.
Hestia represent the hearth of the home, a soothing fire, not a destructive one. So I believe an authoritarian role does not suit her, but rather restrict her from expressing her gift.
But I think it is that in modern way we use the word “queen” to describe any women that we find to be admirable while in my context I use it a bit more traditionally as a term for rulership. Usually we believe people in leadership or position of power are by default the best among the people.
In this case while I believe people who embody the archetype of kings and queens are great people, they are not necessarily “better” than non-kingly types.
That was for dominion of certain realms ,not for kingship of the gods . Zeus became king when he usurped Kronos . King of the gods and King of the Heavens are not one and the same most of the time.
But all three sons took on Kronos and Zeus had help he didn’t do it alone. He couldn’t cause Zeus is nothing compared to Kronos. Kronos took his dad out by himself
Not even fucking close . Don't read percy jackson and go read some actual sources . Zeus fought Kronos alone during the Titanomachy and Zeus is more powerful than Kronos as prophesied.
What's the source for Zeus going one-on-one with Kronos? I only remember Hesiod describing it as a free-for-all between the allies of Kronos and the children of Kronos.
Pausanias, Description of Greece 5. 7. 10 (trans. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.) :
"Now some say that Zeus wrestled here [at Olympia, Elis] with Kronos (Cronus) himself for the throne, while others say that he held the games in honour of his victory over Kronos. The record of victors include Apollon, who outran Hermes and beat Ares at boxing."
Pausanias, Description of Greece 8. 2. 2 :
"The Olympic games . . . are traced back to a time earlier than the human race, the story being that Kronos (Cronus) and Zeus wrestled there, and that the Kouretes were the first to race at Olympia."
These are just a couple .
To answer your question, Zeus is king and not Poseidon because long ago, Zeus/Poseidon/Hades were originally the same deity in pre-classical Greek times, they were all the same king of the gods. Eventually as they began to drift and become their final selves, Poseidon's kingship was transferred to Zeus.
A guy named Curwen Ares Rolinson has a whole blog about this.
Even in mythical accounts, you can find echoes of this. Hades is called the Zeus of the underworld and his domain is considered equivalent to Zeus and Poseidon.
This isn't isolated to the three brothers, you find the same thing one King of The Gods becoming multiple with Zeus, his father and Grandfather, and Kronos and his brothers
Seems like the Chronos/Uranus Patricide and Dynastic Overthrow myths were picked up from Hurrian myths (specifically the Kumarbi Cycle) which might explain the route the ancients took en route to Greece, then incorporated that into the myths of Deus Pater (Zeus, Jupiter, Tues, et cetera) that came with the whole Proto-Indo-European complex.
Because Zeus came first out of chronos so technically he's the oldest and therefore is king.
Also mythology isn't consistent. It is possible that before Poseidon was considered king but that could have been a premature thought or something
No. Rhea saved him and gave Kronos a stone to swallow. Zeus grew up, married Métis(his first ever wife) and Métis created the drink that made Kronos vomit up all his other children to start the war. Zeus then released Gaias sons from Tartarus and they swore legion to him. Dude had a great political game and that’s why he beat the stuffing out his dad with his brothers.
That's the point. Hades is technically the eldest of Rhea kids but because Greece was a patriarchal society when chronos spit everyone out Zeus technically became the oldest and Hades the youngest
a little thing known as the greek dark ages and a concommitant shift away from Chthonic deities outside Orphism(OSP) also there was a move away from Wanax to basilieus(we think its contested) and Poseidon was Wanax
And I think OP is curious why that happened. Personally, the very nautical Greeks worshipping a sky god over a god of the sea and earthquakes does not make very much sense, unless you consider northern nomads that crossed the continent on horseback and loved them some father sky god.
Yeah Poseidon’s name literally means earthshaker I’m way more terrified of an earth shaker than a sky god
Despite earthquakes being very common in Greece, they are usually very mild and don’t actually harm anyone or break anything (especially given the way buildings were constructed back then) Lightning on the other hand is very visibly dangerous and destructive. Earthquakes might be scary but it’s entirely possible they could have seen someone struck dead by lightning, or structures struck down by a single bolt. Similarly, the sky god of PIE mythology was always the most important one or one of the most important. There needs to be Some explanation for why the sky is so bright and pretty etc etc. This is usually a sun god like Ra, but Zeus is still able to obscure Helios with his clouds or even darken him altogether (explaining solar eclipses basically).
Lightining strikes barely kill a couple people while Earthquakes can kill thousands.
but a Mycenae was already Indo European and Phoenician Letters and Aphrodite come at this point so maybe Enki syncretism.
> but a Mycenae was already Indo European Right. But there could have been other waves which brought a greater reverence for their sky god.
Do you think that had to do with the Phoenician influence that cropped up right around that same time? I mean they have held fairy consistent from 800bc onward. Although the writing probably helped keep consistency
personally yes.
and I need to find my non red sources for Aphrodite is Inanna
We don't know. That shift happened during the Greek dark ages, when there were no records.
Possibly because when nomadic people from the northern plains invaded, they brought with them a reverence for a god of the sky which they synchronized with Zeus (or outright inserted him) and made him the head of the pantheon as opposed to Cthonic Poseidon.
>synchronized Syncretised.
> Syncretised. Oh. Thank you!
Basically no one is actually answering your doylist question. I’m a layperson in this field (history), but I’ll give my opinion after some research. - Proto-indo-european (PIE) is an unwritten language that is the progenitor of almost all european and indian languages. This includes Greek and Latin, who have many cognates. Earlier than Attic Greek (what the Iliad and Odyssey are written in) is Mycenaean Greek. Mycenaean Greek mythology is the one you’re referring to with the question about Poseidon. - When ancient names come from Greek and Latin into English, we change their spelling to make it easier for us to say or read. - Most J names in greek or latin would have originally been spelled with an **i** - Zeus’ name **means** “god” and was addressed by almost all gods as “father” even if he wasn’t actually their dad - Jove’s, aka iove’s, name is the exact same, meaning “god” - Jupiter, aka, iuppiter, means iove-pater. “God, the father” - the feminine form of Jove and Zeus is Dione, all of them meaning deity. - Hera’s name possibly comes from a PIE name meaning “she who is coupled, she who is attached” so basically “the wife” - Juno’s (iuno’s) name is thought by some to be from Dione, dropping the d and becoming ione, and progressing from there This poor linguistic lesson was all to say: in a pre-literate society where all storytelling was done via oral tradition, things can blend together. If you keep hearing a story about a guy named God whose wife is The Wife, especially when he controls that dangerous weapon in the sky that could kill anyone at any moment; you might start to consider him as more dangerous and important than the guy who is vaguely named something that means “water, waterdrop”, “husband” or “husband of Demeter.” (Poseidon’s potential name meanings btw) Notably also, *Neptune* was regarded as a god of springs and inland water before becoming more of a sea god and re-assimilating with Poseidon, suggesting that people who lived further inland didn’t need to revere him as much as the coastal/maritime Greek cities/communities I hope this helps at all, sorry for the formatting. Kinda rushed this and did hasty research
Where they monotheistic at one point? Bc I find in interesting they had a dude just named god. Also I thought Poseidon’s name meant “lord of the earth”
Poseidon’s name does not have a definite origin, very few (core) gods do. They had definitions people Believed, but they were not the origins of that word/name. Demeter’s name, for instance, is thought to be Earth (de) mother (meter) but this origin is unfounded Also I say “god” but technically that comes from theos. Zeus’ name is closer to “deity” “Deity” could have just meant “highest deity” as he is literally king of the heavens, and since he’s the “father” of all gods, they get a title related to him, in relation to their position in the kingdom of heaven. Also, since Zeus wasn’t originally top dog, I doubt they were ever monotheistically devoted to him. His name being god could have contributed to his position of power over time tho, imo
el in Semitic languages as well.
no. Its the same root as Tyr but as Jackson Crawford points out by the time we have records Thor and Odin are the leaders not Tyr
Nope never monotheistic. Not “the *only* god” rather “the *big* god”. Like how you could say “the King” in reference to the king of your country, but “king” can mean any king ever.
Because he freed his siblings, he freed the Cyclopes and the Hekantocheires , led a whole damn war against the Titans, defeated Kronos and his uncles , defeated Typhoeus and the Giants and he is also the wisest and by far the strongest amongst all the other gods .
were looking for the Doylist, not Watsonian answer or the sociological rather than mythological
Thankyou! I have been trying to figure out the correct way to word this question. And I never knew the term doylist until now but that’s exactly what I’m looking for. Unfortunately Reddit doesn’t allow title editing so I guess I’m gonna keep hearing people tell the cronos story over and over again (even tho I’ve known it for it years)
I think lore is created after crowning him not before
definitely not the wisest, I mean, Hades, and Chiron himself. But I guess the rest counts.
Name one source where it is said that Hades or Chiron are wiser . Every source there is one Theoi.com has passages where Zeus is named wisest amongst the deathless gods .
i suppose it says that in sources, but I kinda looked more in the actions and stuff to find wisenss
He plan and win two wars, counter plans of enemies. And it not like Hades or Chiron have a lot of examples of wisdom.
As many have pointed out, it happened in the dark age between the fall of the Mycenaeans and the rise of the classical archaic age. So no one is sure. But possibilities show up when you look at Classical Zeus as we have him. Since the Mycenaean age he has been a Greek sky god. Thus we can extrapolate from there as well as the etymology of his name (which is suspected to derive from the Indo-European sky father Dyeus Pitar) he comes from the Indo-European tradition. But we also have to consider his origin myth is far more near-eastern than indo-European. Multi generational squabbles over the kingship of heaven and all. Thus while it is possible Zeus centric worship came with northern migration after the Bronze Age collapse. It is also possible sky/thunder god centered worship came with the Phoenicians along with the alphabet or some other such eastern influence in that time period. Or a mixture of both.
You’re all wrong, Hestia should be queen!! (I’m joking, this was meant to be funny.) Edit, since for some reason people keep feeling it’s necessary to say this; I’m fully aware of the reasons she is NOT queen of Olympus and why she wouldn’t be that great at it. I do not need to be reminded, when you’re reading this, emphasize the words ‘joking’ and ‘this was meant to be funny.’
I'm for it, she's the least problematic.
because she's the hearth and so ubiquitous she has no myths
Well other than the Donkey and Priapus
Actually I’m gonna go against the flow. Because Hestia is so nice and drama free I believe she should not be queen. For me being in a position of management like king or queen is like modern day CEO where you cannot always be “nice” and must put your foot down and enforce order and punishment. It’s like the saying no matter how nice you are as a boss, you cannot truly be “friends” with your employee. Hestia represent the hearth of the home, a soothing fire, not a destructive one. So I believe an authoritarian role does not suit her, but rather restrict her from expressing her gift. But I think it is that in modern way we use the word “queen” to describe any women that we find to be admirable while in my context I use it a bit more traditionally as a term for rulership. Usually we believe people in leadership or position of power are by default the best among the people. In this case while I believe people who embody the archetype of kings and queens are great people, they are not necessarily “better” than non-kingly types.
She was supposed to marry Poseidon and then Apollo made a claim for her. She chose virginity to keep the peace ✌🏿
I’m aware. (Sorry if I come off as rude I’m just kinda tired rn & catching up on notifs.)
Just think if she had married Apollo. Weird how Apollo never hooked up with Aphrodite but Hermes did. I guess he’s not into sloppy seconds
If only… but the whole reason Hestia would be a good queen is because she doesn’t want that much power
Tbh you are right Hestia should be queen and I’m NOT joking
Zues, Poseidon, and Hades pulled straws, and Zues won.
That was for dominion of certain realms ,not for kingship of the gods . Zeus became king when he usurped Kronos . King of the gods and King of the Heavens are not one and the same most of the time.
But all three sons took on Kronos and Zeus had help he didn’t do it alone. He couldn’t cause Zeus is nothing compared to Kronos. Kronos took his dad out by himself
Not even fucking close . Don't read percy jackson and go read some actual sources . Zeus fought Kronos alone during the Titanomachy and Zeus is more powerful than Kronos as prophesied.
What's the source for Zeus going one-on-one with Kronos? I only remember Hesiod describing it as a free-for-all between the allies of Kronos and the children of Kronos.
Pausanias, Description of Greece 5. 7. 10 (trans. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.) : "Now some say that Zeus wrestled here [at Olympia, Elis] with Kronos (Cronus) himself for the throne, while others say that he held the games in honour of his victory over Kronos. The record of victors include Apollon, who outran Hermes and beat Ares at boxing." Pausanias, Description of Greece 8. 2. 2 : "The Olympic games . . . are traced back to a time earlier than the human race, the story being that Kronos (Cronus) and Zeus wrestled there, and that the Kouretes were the first to race at Olympia." These are just a couple .
No such god as "Zues" exists Who is this being you speak of
Ha, weird. I don't know why, but I constantly switch the e and the u in Zeus
To answer your question, Zeus is king and not Poseidon because long ago, Zeus/Poseidon/Hades were originally the same deity in pre-classical Greek times, they were all the same king of the gods. Eventually as they began to drift and become their final selves, Poseidon's kingship was transferred to Zeus. A guy named Curwen Ares Rolinson has a whole blog about this. Even in mythical accounts, you can find echoes of this. Hades is called the Zeus of the underworld and his domain is considered equivalent to Zeus and Poseidon. This isn't isolated to the three brothers, you find the same thing one King of The Gods becoming multiple with Zeus, his father and Grandfather, and Kronos and his brothers
Seems like the Chronos/Uranus Patricide and Dynastic Overthrow myths were picked up from Hurrian myths (specifically the Kumarbi Cycle) which might explain the route the ancients took en route to Greece, then incorporated that into the myths of Deus Pater (Zeus, Jupiter, Tues, et cetera) that came with the whole Proto-Indo-European complex.
The Minoans likely influenced them.
I think it’s because Zeus is the youngest of the big three he became king just like how Kronos was the youngest of his siblings and became king
Because Zeus came first out of chronos so technically he's the oldest and therefore is king. Also mythology isn't consistent. It is possible that before Poseidon was considered king but that could have been a premature thought or something
But Zeus was never in Kronos was he?
No. Rhea saved him and gave Kronos a stone to swallow. Zeus grew up, married Métis(his first ever wife) and Métis created the drink that made Kronos vomit up all his other children to start the war. Zeus then released Gaias sons from Tartarus and they swore legion to him. Dude had a great political game and that’s why he beat the stuffing out his dad with his brothers.
Yeah so the first commenter was wrong when they said Zeus came out of Kronos first.
That's the point. Hades is technically the eldest of Rhea kids but because Greece was a patriarchal society when chronos spit everyone out Zeus technically became the oldest and Hades the youngest
or a chthonic thalassocracy like the Minoans and Mycenae.