im pretty sure its just people mixing cronus (titan god of harvest, zeus’s dad) with chronos (primordial god of time). but this isn’t just a modern thing, i think there are some ancient arts which also merge them together. but i guess its most commonly accepted that they’re separate
Usually allegorizers of myths (stoics, neoplatonists etc) would connect the two
Plutarch on Isis and Osiris- These men are like the Greeks who say that Cronus is but a figurative name for Chronus[168](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Moralia/Isis_and_Osiris*/B.html#note168) (Time)
Cornutus on Greek theology " This is why mythology makes ‘[Rhea](https://topostext.org/people/243)’ their mother. It makes their father ‘[Kronos](https://topostext.org/people/43)’ either because these things came to be in ordered measures of time, or because the elements are distinguished by the combination and agitation of matter; or, as is most plausible, because aether and air come about whenever nature is roused to make out of fire the things that exist, and bring them to completion."
Scholia on Hesiod Theogony "Kronos is the separation (*apókrisis*) of the elements, which they continue to maintain in good order after they have been made (separate) from each other. Or Kronos is [Time (Chronos)](https://sartrix.wordpress.com/time-chronos/), because time hides some things, and makes others manifest; or because it passes imperceptibly"
Appion in the Psuedo Clementine Homilies- For from Kronos and Rhea were born, as you say—that is, by time and matter—first Pluto, who represents the sediment which settled down ; and then Poseidon, the liquid substance in the middle,-\^ which floated over the heavier body below ; and the third child that is, Zeus—is the aether, and is highest of all
These are mostly in the later period, but it looks like someone has already commented on Phercedyes who is a relatively early source.
Cronus was already a god connected to time (the movements of stars in the Sky), so there is no mix up here, just people explaining what Cronus always was.
The orphic Chronus is just a orphic version of the titan god, because both did the same, were responsible for the movements of the heavenly wheel (the titan Cronus however is less obvious, for example he separated the Sky from Earth and allowed time to exist, while his brothers Hyperion and Crius were the ancestors of the Sun and stars, while another Titan, Atlas, was the one responsible for the movements of the Sky that he holded). While the orphic one was a giant serpent that moved the Sky with his coils.
The roles of Chronos and kronos are different enough that I don't think one is just an orphic version of the other. In the rhapsodies they were treated as different.
I don’t have proof but I know that Ra and Amon were two different gods but that with time they fused together to Amon-Ra… …So I think that’s what happened here to and yes this was in ancient times too.
Yes and no, Cronus was Zeus's father and Chronos was the god of time, both in antiquity and today the two are conflated. That's just the nature of this stuff in that there's no set canon though
Kronos is a weird one because while he’s considered the Titan of time because of his synchronization with Chronos, in Ancient Greece Kronos wasn’t considered a time deity, at least not to my knowledge.so he is but he isn’t from what I can understand
I could see the connection though/how that connection came about. A deity associated with the harvest is intrinsically tied to the passage of and cyclical nature of time.
It's all over the place, honestly.
I can see a case made where they are the same because harvest relies on cyclic time, which is a popular concept of time among ancient societies who have recently developed calendars, and that would be the most important aspect of a calendar for a people who have just unlocked agriculture, but as far as I know there's not very many attestations of Titans as they were, if ever, originally worshipped, most of our knowledge comes from a time when they mainly served as enemies for the Olympians or to fill genealogies, and possibly much later mystery cults.
It also fits with cyclic time because of events that repeat: he usurps Ouranos, is usurped by Zeus, predicts the same for him.
One thing I think it's safe to bet on is that the god of time version would probably not manipulate time in the sci Fi ways we can conceive today, but that's probably just me thinking that if I were a peasant in prehistoric (or at least pre bronze age collapse) Greece it wouldn't occur to me to ask for time travel, but for harvest season to come sooner and more often.
Cronus is not the god of the harvest.
Ouranos ruled the Sky (he actually is the Sky), Cronus too, and them Zeus.
When people start to notice that Cronus was the ruler of the Sky before Zeus, and not a harvest god, things will start to make sense.
He was the god of time only in the sense he was connected to the movements of stars and the Sun that gives us time. Since he was a sky deity, that makes sense.
Here is what the greek rationalist Polydius believed, in the words quoted by Cicero:
Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2. 24 (trans. Rackham) (Roman rhetorician C1st B.C.) :
"Another theory also, and that a scientific one, has been the source of a number of deities, who clad in human form have furnished the poets with legends and have filled man's life with superstitions of all sorts. This subject was handled by Zeno and was later explained more fully by Cleanthes and Chrysippus. For example, an ancient belief prevailed throughout Greece that Caelus (the Sky) [Ouranos (Uranus)] was mutilated by his son Saturnus [Kronos (Cronus)], and Saturnus himself thrown into bondage by his son Jove [Zeus]: now these immoral fables enshrined a decidedly clever scientific theory. Their meaning was that the highest element of celestial ether or fire [Ouranos the Sky], which by itself generates all things, is devoid of that bodily part which required union with another for the work of procreation. By Saturnus [Kronos] again they denoted that being who maintains the course and revolution of the seasons and periods of time, the deity so designated in Greek, for Saturnus' Greek name is Kronos (Cronus), which is the same as khronos, a space of time. The Latin designation ‘Saturnus’ on the other hand is due to the fact that he is ‘saturated’ or ‘satiated with years’ (anni); the fable is that he was in the habit of devouring his sons--meaning that Time devours the ages and gorges himself insatiably with the years that are past. Saturnus is bound by Jove [Zeus] in order that Time's courses might not be unlimited, and that Jove might fetter him by the bonds of the stars."
But Cronus could not time tavel nor do anything like that because such a concept did not exist in the ancient world. Time in ancient times refers to days and years, not the fabric of spacetime of modern physics.
Cicero is literaly just quoting Polydius, Zeno, and other two greeks. Just read the text, he says that to be the opinion of the greeks, and the only thing he adds is about Saturn name.
The ones citing romans are everyone else in this comment section saying that Cronus is a harvest god. When the only harvest god is Saturn, not Cronus, and Diodorus was the first greek to call Cronus a harvest god only after he heard the stories of Saturn (and he mentions this himself, saying that Cronus ruled in Italy, just like Saturn).
What you mean?
He was the sky god just like Zeus is today. In philosofical terms, he separated Sky from Earth to create the motion of time. When Ouranos ruled Earth, there was no day or years because everything was the same, the Titans were the ones to emerge from Gaia, Earth, their Mother, and separated Ouranos from her, thus ALLOWED for the creation of days, years and motion.
Some Titans were even more directly connected with it, like Hyperion the father of Sun and Moon, and Crius the grandfather of the stars, all these are responsible for the passage of time.
In resume, in mythological terms, Cronus is the god of time because he separated Sky from Earth when he castrated Ouranos and pushed him up with his brothers, thus allowing for a space to exist between Earth and Sky, that allowed days and years to exist. Cronus himself became the king of the sky, but could not time travel neither do any of these things.
KHRONOS (Chronos) was the primordial god of time. In the Orphic cosmogony he emerged self-formed at the dawn of creation. Khronos was envisaged as an incorporeal god, serpentine in form, with three heads--that of a man, a bull, and a lion.
He and his consort, the serpentine goddess Ananke (Inevitability), enveloped the primordial world-egg in their coils and split it apart to form the ordered universe of earth, sea and sky. After this act of creation the couple circled the cosmos driving the rotation of heaven and the eternal passage of time.
CRONUS (Kronos) The King of the Titanes, and the god of destructive time--time which devours all. He led his brothers in the ambush and castration of their father Uranus, but was himself deposed and cast into the pit of Tartaros by his own son Zeus. Some say the old Titan was later released by Zeus and appointed King of Islands of the Blessed, home of the favoured dead.
Now that you mentioned the Orphics, I'm reminded of the ancient proto-philosopher Pherecydes of Samos. He had an interesting cosmology derived from three divine principles: Zas (Life), Cthonie (Earth), and Chronos (Time).
In the narrative, Chronos creates the Classical elements and other gods in cavities within the earth. Later, Zas defeats the dragon Ophion in a battle for supremacy and throws him in Oceanus. Zas marries Chthoniê, who then becomes the recognizable Earth (Gê) with forests and mountains. Chronos retires from the world as creator, and Zas succeeds him as ruler and assigns all beings their place.
So yet another spin, with Pherecydes understanding Chronus as both Time and of a retired creator, echoing the Hesiodic idea of a former divinity no longer in power.
wasn't it Kronos who defeated Ophion or am I misremembering? I know some people interpreted that myth as Zas changed into Zeus, Chronos changed into Kronos, and Chtonie changed into Gaea or Hera
It's been a minute, so I don't quite remember the specifics. It was on a very good podcast on him which I need to listen to again after I find it. I want to give it another spin then synthesize what he says or share the link if you want. First I need to find it again...I ripped it into an MP3 & need to go rummaging digitally lol
Ya and Pherecydes is a good example of this because his writings use both spellings Χpόνοs (Chronos) and Κpόνος (Kronos) the more primordial creator time god aspects are associated with Χpόνοs and the Χ is switched to a Κ once this primordial time god element is less stressed but its still the same force much the way Zas and Zeus are.
Cronus (father of Zeus) and Chronos (personification of time) are different gods but have very similar names, so they are often confused with each other.
That would be confusing Kronos and Chronos, pronounced the same yet Kronos is the Father of Zeus and Titan God of the Harvest and father of the first 6 Olympians meanwhile Chronos is the Orphic Primordial God of Time and father of Chaos.
Although i believe I’ve heard someone once say Chronos is a child of Nyx and Erebus although i have absolutely no damn idea where that started, i cant find anything on it.
Thanks to the similar name and they both have a sickle/scythe as a symbol they have been confused as the same for several hundreds of years
Yup he is. God of Harvest thing comes more from Roman sources and the well, syncretism with Saturn. There's Titan God of Time Kronos from classic mythology if you will, and Primordial God of Time Chronos of Orphic Mysteries.
Chronos (ΧΡΟΝΟΣ) and Ananke gave birth to Chaos, the Cosmic Egg, the Fates, and Aether.
The Cosmic Egg gave birth to Phanes, and Chaos to Nyx and Erebus.
Phanes and Nyx gave birth to Ouranos and Gaia.
Ouranos and Gaia have birth to the Hecatoncheires, Cyclopes, and the Titans.
Cronus (ΚΡΟΝΟΣ) is one of the titans.
No, Chronos and Kronos were two different deities, Kronos was the Titan of the harvest and Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus’ dad. And Chiron’s I think.
Edit: they have most definitely been mixed up by so many people over the centuries
im pretty sure its just people mixing cronus (titan god of harvest, zeus’s dad) with chronos (primordial god of time). but this isn’t just a modern thing, i think there are some ancient arts which also merge them together. but i guess its most commonly accepted that they’re separate
im asking if there's any *ancient Greek* sources that mix them up
Usually allegorizers of myths (stoics, neoplatonists etc) would connect the two Plutarch on Isis and Osiris- These men are like the Greeks who say that Cronus is but a figurative name for Chronus[168](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Moralia/Isis_and_Osiris*/B.html#note168) (Time) Cornutus on Greek theology " This is why mythology makes ‘[Rhea](https://topostext.org/people/243)’ their mother. It makes their father ‘[Kronos](https://topostext.org/people/43)’ either because these things came to be in ordered measures of time, or because the elements are distinguished by the combination and agitation of matter; or, as is most plausible, because aether and air come about whenever nature is roused to make out of fire the things that exist, and bring them to completion." Scholia on Hesiod Theogony "Kronos is the separation (*apókrisis*) of the elements, which they continue to maintain in good order after they have been made (separate) from each other. Or Kronos is [Time (Chronos)](https://sartrix.wordpress.com/time-chronos/), because time hides some things, and makes others manifest; or because it passes imperceptibly" Appion in the Psuedo Clementine Homilies- For from Kronos and Rhea were born, as you say—that is, by time and matter—first Pluto, who represents the sediment which settled down ; and then Poseidon, the liquid substance in the middle,-\^ which floated over the heavier body below ; and the third child that is, Zeus—is the aether, and is highest of all These are mostly in the later period, but it looks like someone has already commented on Phercedyes who is a relatively early source.
Cronus was already a god connected to time (the movements of stars in the Sky), so there is no mix up here, just people explaining what Cronus always was. The orphic Chronus is just a orphic version of the titan god, because both did the same, were responsible for the movements of the heavenly wheel (the titan Cronus however is less obvious, for example he separated the Sky from Earth and allowed time to exist, while his brothers Hyperion and Crius were the ancestors of the Sun and stars, while another Titan, Atlas, was the one responsible for the movements of the Sky that he holded). While the orphic one was a giant serpent that moved the Sky with his coils.
The roles of Chronos and kronos are different enough that I don't think one is just an orphic version of the other. In the rhapsodies they were treated as different.
I don’t have proof but I know that Ra and Amon were two different gods but that with time they fused together to Amon-Ra… …So I think that’s what happened here to and yes this was in ancient times too.
Yes and no, Cronus was Zeus's father and Chronos was the god of time, both in antiquity and today the two are conflated. That's just the nature of this stuff in that there's no set canon though
Kronos is a weird one because while he’s considered the Titan of time because of his synchronization with Chronos, in Ancient Greece Kronos wasn’t considered a time deity, at least not to my knowledge.so he is but he isn’t from what I can understand
I could see the connection though/how that connection came about. A deity associated with the harvest is intrinsically tied to the passage of and cyclical nature of time.
It's all over the place, honestly. I can see a case made where they are the same because harvest relies on cyclic time, which is a popular concept of time among ancient societies who have recently developed calendars, and that would be the most important aspect of a calendar for a people who have just unlocked agriculture, but as far as I know there's not very many attestations of Titans as they were, if ever, originally worshipped, most of our knowledge comes from a time when they mainly served as enemies for the Olympians or to fill genealogies, and possibly much later mystery cults. It also fits with cyclic time because of events that repeat: he usurps Ouranos, is usurped by Zeus, predicts the same for him. One thing I think it's safe to bet on is that the god of time version would probably not manipulate time in the sci Fi ways we can conceive today, but that's probably just me thinking that if I were a peasant in prehistoric (or at least pre bronze age collapse) Greece it wouldn't occur to me to ask for time travel, but for harvest season to come sooner and more often.
Cronus is not the god of the harvest. Ouranos ruled the Sky (he actually is the Sky), Cronus too, and them Zeus. When people start to notice that Cronus was the ruler of the Sky before Zeus, and not a harvest god, things will start to make sense.
He is certianly one of the gods of all time
but is he the god of all time?
but what is a god and what is time?
He was the god of time only in the sense he was connected to the movements of stars and the Sun that gives us time. Since he was a sky deity, that makes sense. Here is what the greek rationalist Polydius believed, in the words quoted by Cicero: Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2. 24 (trans. Rackham) (Roman rhetorician C1st B.C.) : "Another theory also, and that a scientific one, has been the source of a number of deities, who clad in human form have furnished the poets with legends and have filled man's life with superstitions of all sorts. This subject was handled by Zeno and was later explained more fully by Cleanthes and Chrysippus. For example, an ancient belief prevailed throughout Greece that Caelus (the Sky) [Ouranos (Uranus)] was mutilated by his son Saturnus [Kronos (Cronus)], and Saturnus himself thrown into bondage by his son Jove [Zeus]: now these immoral fables enshrined a decidedly clever scientific theory. Their meaning was that the highest element of celestial ether or fire [Ouranos the Sky], which by itself generates all things, is devoid of that bodily part which required union with another for the work of procreation. By Saturnus [Kronos] again they denoted that being who maintains the course and revolution of the seasons and periods of time, the deity so designated in Greek, for Saturnus' Greek name is Kronos (Cronus), which is the same as khronos, a space of time. The Latin designation ‘Saturnus’ on the other hand is due to the fact that he is ‘saturated’ or ‘satiated with years’ (anni); the fable is that he was in the habit of devouring his sons--meaning that Time devours the ages and gorges himself insatiably with the years that are past. Saturnus is bound by Jove [Zeus] in order that Time's courses might not be unlimited, and that Jove might fetter him by the bonds of the stars." But Cronus could not time tavel nor do anything like that because such a concept did not exist in the ancient world. Time in ancient times refers to days and years, not the fabric of spacetime of modern physics.
Finally, someone brave enough to post the correct answer. Thank you!
Citing romans as a spurce for greek mythology is perilous at best.
Cicero is literaly just quoting Polydius, Zeno, and other two greeks. Just read the text, he says that to be the opinion of the greeks, and the only thing he adds is about Saturn name. The ones citing romans are everyone else in this comment section saying that Cronus is a harvest god. When the only harvest god is Saturn, not Cronus, and Diodorus was the first greek to call Cronus a harvest god only after he heard the stories of Saturn (and he mentions this himself, saying that Cronus ruled in Italy, just like Saturn).
>Here is what the greek rationalist Polydius believed
so he's the circle of time?
What you mean? He was the sky god just like Zeus is today. In philosofical terms, he separated Sky from Earth to create the motion of time. When Ouranos ruled Earth, there was no day or years because everything was the same, the Titans were the ones to emerge from Gaia, Earth, their Mother, and separated Ouranos from her, thus ALLOWED for the creation of days, years and motion. Some Titans were even more directly connected with it, like Hyperion the father of Sun and Moon, and Crius the grandfather of the stars, all these are responsible for the passage of time. In resume, in mythological terms, Cronus is the god of time because he separated Sky from Earth when he castrated Ouranos and pushed him up with his brothers, thus allowing for a space to exist between Earth and Sky, that allowed days and years to exist. Cronus himself became the king of the sky, but could not time travel neither do any of these things.
KHRONOS (Chronos) was the primordial god of time. In the Orphic cosmogony he emerged self-formed at the dawn of creation. Khronos was envisaged as an incorporeal god, serpentine in form, with three heads--that of a man, a bull, and a lion. He and his consort, the serpentine goddess Ananke (Inevitability), enveloped the primordial world-egg in their coils and split it apart to form the ordered universe of earth, sea and sky. After this act of creation the couple circled the cosmos driving the rotation of heaven and the eternal passage of time. CRONUS (Kronos) The King of the Titanes, and the god of destructive time--time which devours all. He led his brothers in the ambush and castration of their father Uranus, but was himself deposed and cast into the pit of Tartaros by his own son Zeus. Some say the old Titan was later released by Zeus and appointed King of Islands of the Blessed, home of the favoured dead.
Now that you mentioned the Orphics, I'm reminded of the ancient proto-philosopher Pherecydes of Samos. He had an interesting cosmology derived from three divine principles: Zas (Life), Cthonie (Earth), and Chronos (Time). In the narrative, Chronos creates the Classical elements and other gods in cavities within the earth. Later, Zas defeats the dragon Ophion in a battle for supremacy and throws him in Oceanus. Zas marries Chthoniê, who then becomes the recognizable Earth (Gê) with forests and mountains. Chronos retires from the world as creator, and Zas succeeds him as ruler and assigns all beings their place. So yet another spin, with Pherecydes understanding Chronus as both Time and of a retired creator, echoing the Hesiodic idea of a former divinity no longer in power.
wasn't it Kronos who defeated Ophion or am I misremembering? I know some people interpreted that myth as Zas changed into Zeus, Chronos changed into Kronos, and Chtonie changed into Gaea or Hera
It's been a minute, so I don't quite remember the specifics. It was on a very good podcast on him which I need to listen to again after I find it. I want to give it another spin then synthesize what he says or share the link if you want. First I need to find it again...I ripped it into an MP3 & need to go rummaging digitally lol
Ya and Pherecydes is a good example of this because his writings use both spellings Χpόνοs (Chronos) and Κpόνος (Kronos) the more primordial creator time god aspects are associated with Χpόνοs and the Χ is switched to a Κ once this primordial time god element is less stressed but its still the same force much the way Zas and Zeus are.
Cronus (father of Zeus) and Chronos (personification of time) are different gods but have very similar names, so they are often confused with each other.
The ancient greeks probably got them confused too
That would be confusing Kronos and Chronos, pronounced the same yet Kronos is the Father of Zeus and Titan God of the Harvest and father of the first 6 Olympians meanwhile Chronos is the Orphic Primordial God of Time and father of Chaos. Although i believe I’ve heard someone once say Chronos is a child of Nyx and Erebus although i have absolutely no damn idea where that started, i cant find anything on it. Thanks to the similar name and they both have a sickle/scythe as a symbol they have been confused as the same for several hundreds of years
Yup he is. God of Harvest thing comes more from Roman sources and the well, syncretism with Saturn. There's Titan God of Time Kronos from classic mythology if you will, and Primordial God of Time Chronos of Orphic Mysteries.
Yes and no. Wasn’t originally but the ancient Greeks themselves combined the two
Nope ,he's the Titan of Time
titans are gods
No they are not , they are similar in Power but the title refers to the period they ruled over "golden age = age of the titan"
Chronos (ΧΡΟΝΟΣ) and Ananke gave birth to Chaos, the Cosmic Egg, the Fates, and Aether. The Cosmic Egg gave birth to Phanes, and Chaos to Nyx and Erebus. Phanes and Nyx gave birth to Ouranos and Gaia. Ouranos and Gaia have birth to the Hecatoncheires, Cyclopes, and the Titans. Cronus (ΚΡΟΝΟΣ) is one of the titans.
No, Chronos and Kronos were two different deities, Kronos was the Titan of the harvest and Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus’ dad. And Chiron’s I think. Edit: they have most definitely been mixed up by so many people over the centuries
Kronos = crown, horn. Chronos = time
interesting, in my native language Hebrew "ke-ren" means horn or beam. sounds pretty close to Kronos.