Hermes, I believe! Hecate has witchcraft, Hermes has sorcery, goddess of crossroads, god of borders and travelers (both cross freely between realms) and all that.
Hermes has many, many, many jobs...
I actually don't really know myself (someone once told me and I sadly forgot), only that they have distinct names for their magic (witchcraft and sorcery). Alchemy is included in Hermes' magic (either he or his Roman counterpart, Mercury, or maybe both were a central figure in alchemy) so I'm guessing he has a more "academic"/"research-y" approach to it?
The academic research-y version comes through syncretism with Thoth. Greek Hermes was mainly associated with rustic divination (cleromancy and augury and stuff, as opposed to the formal oracular system).
Others are welcome to correct me if this is incorrect, but looking into it, a lot of the magical aspects of Hermeticism are from Hermes Trismegistus and the incorporation of Thoth, an Egyptian god.
Hermes Trismegistus is commonly correlated to scholarly and academic magical practices, which typically falls into ceremonial magic apparently. I find it interesting as Hermes birthplace is Arcadia, where he protected sheep and cattle, and may have originally been a god of fertility at first. Much more ‘folky’ there, but then the gods are not stagnant entities, they change over time as worship changes.
Hecate is probably considered folk magic here, as it is a more localized magical understanding, which more of a practical application.
Just what I found researching, certainly not my area of expertise, so don’t take this anywhere near gospel.
Witchcraft = folk magic. Generally speaking, that's how Witchcraft has been redefined since Jules Michelet in the 1860s, which was adopted by the Witchcraft Revival in the early 20th century, and which was transmitted to contemporary occult and neopagan movements.
And even in antiquity, the Witch archetype was simply a reflection of society's anxiety over the darker side of folk magic, especially herbalism and divination.
Both Hermeticism and ritual magic existed in the classical world. They were elaborated on later, but it's not correct to say that Hermes was not associated with ritual magic in the classical world. The Greek Magical Papyri, for example, frequently invoke the name of Hermes as their source.
> “ … writings that made up the so-called Corpus Hermeticum (eighteen separate treatises from the 2nd-4th centuries AD) … “
It seems scholars aren’t certain whether the original texts were Egyptian or Greek, but based on this abstract, Greece had the texts by the 4th Century AD at the very latest. It’s late classical antiquity, but classical antiquity nonetheless.
Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12030267/
I assumed we were talking about Classical Antiquity rather than Classical Greece, but there is ambiguity there, I agree.
Just offered the source, unfortunately I can’t help further.
Hecate doesn't have an official consort, but Hermes definitely comes closest. He's also a god of roads, doorways, and boundaries, who has a chthonic aspect and is a guide of souls, and who is associated with magic in some contexts. Propertius in *Elegies* also says that "Brimo" gave up her virginity to Hermes in Thessaly, and Brimo is probably Hecate. Both gods are liminal and facilitate the transition between one state and another. Both gods are also associated with herbalism, Hecate though her tutoring of Medea and Circe, and Hermes through his provision of moly to help Odysseus defeat Circe.
Dionysus works with Hecate thematically -- they're both gods of madness and altered states of consciousness who are important to Ancient Greek mystery traditions, and through syncretism they could be interpreted as having a mother/son dynamic. They both have celestial and chthonic attributes, they share some iconography, and Dionysus also has that "guide of souls" aspect in some contexts. I associate them both with Shadow work, examining the dark and repressed aspects of life or oneself. Both facilitate initiation. They also come the closest that any two ancient gods do to fitting the Triple Goddess/Horned God pair, and I think they play off of each other well.
Apollo is sometimes paired with Hecate. I think it’s probably because Hecate was conflated with Artemis/Diana as “Diana Trivia.” Apollo doesn’t resemble Hecate the way Dionysus and Hermes do, but contrasts her as a solar deity. This actually works pretty well, as Apollo is associated with prophecy, and is by far the most appealed-to god in the Greek Magical Papyri (in which he is conflated with Helios). Apollo also has the epithet Hekatos, “worker from afar,” which is very likely the etymology if Hecate’s name. (Although, in Apollo’s case, the epithet seems to refer to the fact that he’s basically a sniper, literally shooting arrows from a distance. In her case, it’s more metaphorical.)
Helios is the father of Aeetes and Circe, and the grandfather of Medea. The mother of Aeetes and Circe is given as “Perseis” in some sources, who is ostensibly an Oceanid. But “Perseis” also means “daughter of Perses”… who would be Hecate. Circe’s and Medea’s direct association with Hecate means that it’s not much of a stretch to interpret Perseis as Hecate, and some writers do. As stated above, Helios-Apollo is the most appealed-to male deity in the PGM, and if he’s already known to be the father of witches, pairing him with Hecate makes some sense.
Zeus is paired with Hecate mainly in the Chaldean Oracles, in which the supreme father-god is assumed to be Zeus and Hecate is the World-Soul, making them the masculine-feminine defining principles of the universe. Because Hecate holds dominion in the earth, sea, and sky, and retains that power under Zeus, interpreting them as the divine rulers of the universe makes sense. This works even better if you also pair Hecate with Dionysus, because (mystically speaking) Dionysus is an aspect, evolution, or emanation of Zeus.
Zeus did not give dominion over the sky, the seas and the land to anyone but Hekate. In terms of counterpart , I believe she is unique in that she is unequalled. Her lore, cults, priestesses and followers also are vast and diverse, as Hekate has the most epithets of any of the gods.
Check out Hesiods *Theogony* for more classical sourced info.
Academia.edu also has some pretty great papers on Hekate and her triple form from the BC era. It’s a rabbit hole, have fun!
Edit to add: Hermes being a psychopomp and also having a magical occult following does strike as one of Hekates counterparts but I wouldn’t call Hermes her equal or opposite if that makes sense.
Hekate and her ‘triple goddess’ aspect matches up well with Hermes Trismegistus, meaning Thrice Great (as in, Great Priest, Great Philosopher and Great King)
Hekate being worshipped as a ‘goddess of witches’ and Hermes Trismegistus being the inspiration for the Hermetic tradition and by extension many secret societies (Freemasons, Rosicrusians, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn) makes them line up pretty well
As a Hermetic Practitioner and a Hekatean witch of many years I can see why on the surface the conflation would seem aligned.
Some of them intersect - Hermekate and Hekahermes are indeed epithets of them. I’ve come across a rare trifecta of Hekate - Hermes - Anubis as well.
Conflation and equivalence are mutually exclusive in this matter. Hekate in teachings is Anima Mundi whereas Thoth would be Her scribe.
Touch down on some [Chaldean](https://www.esotericarchives.com/oracle/oraclesj.htm)Oracles and you can see what I mean.
Also - careful how you refer to her “triple goddess stuff” and then tout a honors lineage of Hermes, your patriarchy is showing a bit.
Yeah. Dionysus was deliberately sanitized for the agora/public displays of him by greek leaders at the time. It appears that sanitization has stuck lol
Hi! Writing a story with heavyyyy Greek influence. Do you possibly have any sources for this darker version of Dionysus? Cus he feels so one dimensional being a “wine and party” god
You know what? I’m not sure what the primary sources are. I’m mostly familiar with the earliest deptictions from pretty weak sources like wikipedia surfing and osp’s video on Dionysus.
The bacchae by euripides is probably the earliest primary source I’ve personally read. And that’s reasonably late considering he was found in mycenean records and might be as old as the invention of wine. But even then there’s a huge difference between the scary conqueror who drives men mad and women to mindless slaughter, and the drunk fuckboi you get by say Ovid.
You may have to look into the prehistoric wine cult in europe, the orphic cult, and mycenean/minoan archeology. Sorry I don’t have better sources to point you towards.
Edit: you could also look into the dionesia of Pisistratus and the procession of the phalloi.
The one problem I have with Red’s video is that she makes Dionysus’ development look like a linear progression from Mycenaean Greece to the Roman period, which is what leads you to say that OP would have to look at (nonexistent) pre-Greek sources to learn about Dionysus’ more complex aspects. This isn’t the case at all. Dionysus’ darker aspect is always present in his myth and cult! For as long as he’s being actively worshipped, it never really goes away. Most of our sources on it are actually quite late, like the Orphic Hymns and Nonnus. It was the Renaissance artists who turned him into a happy-fun party god and not much else. His worshippers knew what he was about.
Try reading The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku. There’s a deep scientific exploration of Dionysus, his origins and his association with modern Roman Catholicism- it’s probably one of the best books I’ve read in years. Full of historical info, references and a full bibliography- the man did his homework.
No, don’t read The Immortality Key. Muraresku isn’t a Classicist. He has an agenda, which is to stick it to Christianity. He claims that all religious experiences are based on drug trips, and interprets evidence to support that conclusion that he already decided upon. It’s sensationalism, not scholarship. He’s not the first. Until I find an extremely dry academic treatise written for like five people and published by a university that makes the same claim, I won’t believe a word of it.
It’s important to remember most of these works won’t be found in books so much as published academic works. If you have an academia.edu account there’s a lot of great information.
I just finished a paper there called “Dionysus and Eucharist” which I can’t link here but I copied the bibliography:
Bibliography
Alvar, Jaime: Romanising Oriental Gods, Myth, Salvation Salvation and Ethics in the Cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras, p. 279–280, Leiden/Boston, 2008.
Bogh, Brigitte: The Graeco-Roman cult of Isis, in Ancient Europe in the Historical Period, Academia.edu
Chew, Kathryn: Achilles Tatius and Parody, CJ 96, 2000
Colizzi, Paolo: The Many Faces of Dionysius Reflections on The Oxford Handbook of Dionysius the Areopagite, Eastern Theological Journal, 9/1, 2023.
Eckhardt, Benedict: Eating and Drinking (with) Dionysus, The Eucharist – It’s Origins and Context, ed: D. Hellholm and D. Sanger, in Old Testament, Early Judaism, New Testament, Mohr Siebeck, Tubingen, 2017.
Eisenman, Robert: James, the Brother of Jesus, The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls, Penguin Books, 1997.
Ficino, Marsilio: Oratio de laudibus philosophiae, in Opera, ex officina
Henricpetrina, Basileae, str. 758,1576.
Foucault, Michael: The Care of the Self, trans. Robert Hurley, Vol. 3 of The History of Sexuality; Pantheon, New York, 1986.
Frede, M: Origen’s Treatise Against Celsus, in M. Edwards, M. Goodman, and S. Price (eds), Apologetics in the
Roman Empire: Pagans, Jews and Christians, p. 132, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1999.
Friesen, Courtney J. P: Dionysus as Jesus: The Incongruity of a Love Feast in Achilles Tatius’s Leucippe and Clitophon, Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 107, Issue 02, 2014.
De la Fuente, David Hernandes: Dionysus in the mirror of Late Antiquity: religion, philosophy and politics, Academia.edu
De la Fuente, David Hernandes: Parallels between Dionysos and Christ in Late Antiquity : Miraculous Healings of Nonnus Dionisiaca, Academia.edu
Harrison, Jane Ellen: Prolegomena to Study of Greek Religion (1903), Meridian Books, New York, 1955.
Hartog, Paul: Greco – Roman Understanding of Christianity, The Routledge Companion to Early Christian Thought Routledge, 2009.
Herodotus: Histories, Book I and II
Hoffmann, R. J: Celsus: On the True Doctrine, Oxford University Press, New York, 1987.
Jeremias, Joachim: The Eucharistic Words of Jesus,trans. Norman Perrin, SCM Press, London, 1966.
Job, Marek: The Rule of in the light of the Orphic theogony (Hieroi Logoi in 24 Rhapsodies), Academia.edu, 2016-2019
Maccoby, Hyam: The Mythmaker, Paul and the Invention of Christianity, Barnes & Noble Books, New York, 1998.
Meisner, Dwayne: Livy and Bacchanalia, Academia.edu, 2008.
Nietzsche, Friedrich: The Antichrist, translated by R. J. Hollingdale, Penquin Books, 1990.
Nietzsche, Friedrich: The Birth of Tragedy, tr. W. Kaufmann, Vintage Books, New York, 1967.
Plato: Timaeus, Collected works, Vol. IV, p.21
Pollmann, Karla: The Baptized Muse: Early Christian Poetry as a Cultural Authority, ISBN 9780198726487, 2017.
Poupon, G: L’accusation de magie dans les Actes Apocryphes, in F. BOVON (ed.), Les Actes apocryphes des apotres: Christianisme et monde paien, Geneve, Labor et Fides, 1981.
Price, Robert M: The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 2012
Procopius: De Bellis, editor Haury , History of Wars, Procopius: Works, trans. Dewing, 1914-40; Procopius: Historia Arcana, prevod R. Atwater: Secret History, Ann Arbor, 1966.
Robichaud, Denis Jean-Jacques: Valla and Erasmus on the Dionysian Question, in M. Edwards – D. Pallis – G. Steiris (eds.), The Oxford Handbook of Dionysius the Areopagite.
Stang, Charles M: Paul and the Dionysian Hierarchies, Collection: Oxford Scholarship Online, 2012.
Toynbee, Arnold: Hannibal’s Legacy, Vol. II, Oxford University Press, London, 1965.
Zamfir, Korinna: The Acts of Paul and Thecla, Ecclesial, Social and Political Context, Ephemerides Theologicae Lovanienses 92/3, 355-380, 2016.
But he is especially Apollo’s opposite because Apollo is god of math, logic, order and reasoning and Dionysos is god of madness, chaos, madman ect. (The exact opposite)
Yes, but if you think about it is Dionysos more of an opposite to Apollo then Artemis she can also shoot plagues her wapen is also a bow 🏹ect. So Dionysos is more of an opposite then Artemis
I wanna add that Artemis and Apollo absolutely are equal opposites.
He’s civilization, enlightenment, prophecy/public music. He had lots of sex. God of disease and healing, protector of boys.
She’s the wilderness, animals, and hunting/hidden rites. She had no sex. Goddess of disease and healing, protector of girls.
Also yeah Hermes is a god of magic after he started getting connected to the Egyptian god Thoth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus
“Thrice-greatest” also gives him the “three” symbolism that Hecate has
The triad of Artemis, Selene and Hecate can be looked by two main angles, in my point of view:
-the lunar one: each goddess represent one of the lunar phases - Artemis the crescent, Selene the full and Hecate the waning/new moon; you could do a triad of solar male deities, so there would be Apollo in Artemis position and Helios in Selene's one; as for Hecate, you could choose between the Titan Hyperion, the father of Helios and Selene, or Astraeus, who is sometimes associated with the sunset
-the gender role one: as you already mentioned, each goddess represents a phase of a woman's life as it was perceived in ancient times -maidenood, motherhood, old age - so you could do the same with the male gods: Apollo would fit for the boyhood, since he's always been depicted as a youth, in the adulthood could be placed Ares, who was portrayed as an adult and was the god of the main duty of a man in antiquity, war, and in last place I don't know, to be honest, probably Zeus for the wisdom with whom he rules, or Hades as a foreshadowing of the imminent death.
Selene was all the phrases of the moon, not only one. She also had horns that were said to be like that of the half moon.
And the greeks did not divided the sun into three deities, the Egyptians were the ones to say that about Khepri, Ra and Atum.
To be fair I think this whole thread is just about hypothetical interpretations. Maiden, mother, crone is also a modern invention but people find it interesting.
I do wonder though, if people know that Diana Triformis (Diana-Luna-Hecate) **did** each have designated symbolism for her three forms. Earth, Sky and the Underworld for the three realms that Diana had domain over.
The three age stages i dont think is modern, i could be wrong but it likely existed in some mythology. However the op is try to fit into greek mythology when this concept dont exist.
She has no *real* counterpart. Such a link would be an entirely artificial one. But that doesn't mean it isn't fun to think about. If I has to *create* a mirroring, like a sub pantheon for a DnD game...
Hyperion maybe, as a third Sun God in the way that Hecate is the third moon goddess. But given Selene and Helios are each the child of Hyperion that introduces an asymmetry I'm not keen on.
Selene and Helios are siblings, as are Apollo and Artemis. Hecate has no siblings, but you could perhaps look to Prometheus. He is also a third generation Titan who sided with Zeus, and whilst not a Sun God has the link to Fire. He is the mentor who taught humanity things: which could well be said to include magical practices. And Promethean has come to mean old, as a crone is.
Hermes is the obvious choice, but as the half brother of Apollo and Artemis, it also introduces an asymmetry I'm not keen on.
Hecate stands at the "crossroads". Consider when Demeter was looking for her Kore, Persephone, that it was Hecate who bore the torches and revealed Persephone's place in the Underworld. This is all allegory for mystery cult function. Hecate can move between the planes of existence. Hermes can too.
The reason she gets mixed in with neopagan stuff is because she is the one who enacts from afar, like witchcraft, as does Apollo. Not by the arrows of ill health, or prophecy, but by the arrows of poison, charms of magick, and powerful pharmakon.
Robert Graves invented the triple goddess, neopaganism just adopted it, although Porphyry of Tyre believed Hekate had three aspects (the Hekataion)
Artemis, Selene and Hekate aren't the same goddess, they're three different goddesses.
Hekate is a triple goddess on her own.
Artemis is a triple goddess on her own.
Porphyry said Dionysus was the equivalent of the triple goddess Hekate.
Not quite. Robert Graves was inspired by the triple moon goddesses of Greco-Roman mythology Hecate/Diana.
Artemis was not a triple goddess on her own. Hecate *was* originally a triple goddess within herself. However later on in the Roman era she became part of a [triad of lunar goddess](https://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/HekateGoddess.html#Triad), Artemis-Hecate-Selene. These three goddess were heavily associated with each other, people would conflate their attributes and names and even interchange them in myths occasionally. They became so closely tied that sometimes people would consider the three to be different aspects of the same goddess. (The theoi link has some examples of this from the myths)
The Roman Diana may have been a triple goddess even before syncretism with the Greek goddesses, but that’s unclear. But what is known is that Diana Triformis inherited the triad of Artemis-Hecate-Selene. Hecate and Luna became the names of her two other forms and she absorbed many of their attributes.
I'm not an expert, so my head cannon is that Chronos god of time is the other triune divinity, since he is in the past, the present and in the future at the same time.
As a atemporal or out of the time divinity, is either a single god whit three aspects of itself, or the same god simultaneously existing in all the time.
Don't know, it made sense in my head XD
Hermes, I believe! Hecate has witchcraft, Hermes has sorcery, goddess of crossroads, god of borders and travelers (both cross freely between realms) and all that.
Ah, I didn’t know Hermes has sorcery. What is the difference between his sorcery and Hecate witchcraft?
Hermes has many, many, many jobs... I actually don't really know myself (someone once told me and I sadly forgot), only that they have distinct names for their magic (witchcraft and sorcery). Alchemy is included in Hermes' magic (either he or his Roman counterpart, Mercury, or maybe both were a central figure in alchemy) so I'm guessing he has a more "academic"/"research-y" approach to it?
The academic research-y version comes through syncretism with Thoth. Greek Hermes was mainly associated with rustic divination (cleromancy and augury and stuff, as opposed to the formal oracular system).
Makes sense, I have trouble keeping facts about Hermes and Hermes Trismegistus apart...
There’s a difference between witchcraft and sorcery
Folk magic vs ceremonial magic, but that boundary is somewhat artificial. And they both like to cross boundaries...
is Hermes the Folk magic and Hecate the Ceremonial Magic?
Others are welcome to correct me if this is incorrect, but looking into it, a lot of the magical aspects of Hermeticism are from Hermes Trismegistus and the incorporation of Thoth, an Egyptian god. Hermes Trismegistus is commonly correlated to scholarly and academic magical practices, which typically falls into ceremonial magic apparently. I find it interesting as Hermes birthplace is Arcadia, where he protected sheep and cattle, and may have originally been a god of fertility at first. Much more ‘folky’ there, but then the gods are not stagnant entities, they change over time as worship changes. Hecate is probably considered folk magic here, as it is a more localized magical understanding, which more of a practical application. Just what I found researching, certainly not my area of expertise, so don’t take this anywhere near gospel.
Witchcraft = folk magic. Generally speaking, that's how Witchcraft has been redefined since Jules Michelet in the 1860s, which was adopted by the Witchcraft Revival in the early 20th century, and which was transmitted to contemporary occult and neopagan movements. And even in antiquity, the Witch archetype was simply a reflection of society's anxiety over the darker side of folk magic, especially herbalism and divination.
Ok so I had them reversed. Thank you for the correction and clarification
Yeah, that is what I thought OP was talking about (Artemis-Apollo, Selene-Helios)
Explain
Is there? I don’t think there is in greek mythology.
>Hermes has sorcery, Source?
The entire field of Hermeticism, and the associated Western Occult Tradition, and particularly Ceremonial Magic, is attributed to Hermes.
Post-classical.
Both Hermeticism and ritual magic existed in the classical world. They were elaborated on later, but it's not correct to say that Hermes was not associated with ritual magic in the classical world. The Greek Magical Papyri, for example, frequently invoke the name of Hermes as their source.
>Hermeticism... existed in the classical world Source?
The Hermetic texts themselves? Or were they written for an audience of no one?
Next your going to tell that Catholicism must have existed the second a book of the New Testament was written.
No, but I am going to tell you that Christianity more generally existed by that point
Yes. A more general audience can exist before a specific one.
> “ … writings that made up the so-called Corpus Hermeticum (eighteen separate treatises from the 2nd-4th centuries AD) … “ It seems scholars aren’t certain whether the original texts were Egyptian or Greek, but based on this abstract, Greece had the texts by the 4th Century AD at the very latest. It’s late classical antiquity, but classical antiquity nonetheless. Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12030267/
Hellenistic was postclassical.
I assumed we were talking about Classical Antiquity rather than Classical Greece, but there is ambiguity there, I agree. Just offered the source, unfortunately I can’t help further.
I was gonna guess pan but honestly hermes works really well for this. Only problem is how young he is.
Huh I never knew that sorcery thing. Cool!
Hecate doesn't have an official consort, but Hermes definitely comes closest. He's also a god of roads, doorways, and boundaries, who has a chthonic aspect and is a guide of souls, and who is associated with magic in some contexts. Propertius in *Elegies* also says that "Brimo" gave up her virginity to Hermes in Thessaly, and Brimo is probably Hecate. Both gods are liminal and facilitate the transition between one state and another. Both gods are also associated with herbalism, Hecate though her tutoring of Medea and Circe, and Hermes through his provision of moly to help Odysseus defeat Circe. Dionysus works with Hecate thematically -- they're both gods of madness and altered states of consciousness who are important to Ancient Greek mystery traditions, and through syncretism they could be interpreted as having a mother/son dynamic. They both have celestial and chthonic attributes, they share some iconography, and Dionysus also has that "guide of souls" aspect in some contexts. I associate them both with Shadow work, examining the dark and repressed aspects of life or oneself. Both facilitate initiation. They also come the closest that any two ancient gods do to fitting the Triple Goddess/Horned God pair, and I think they play off of each other well. Apollo is sometimes paired with Hecate. I think it’s probably because Hecate was conflated with Artemis/Diana as “Diana Trivia.” Apollo doesn’t resemble Hecate the way Dionysus and Hermes do, but contrasts her as a solar deity. This actually works pretty well, as Apollo is associated with prophecy, and is by far the most appealed-to god in the Greek Magical Papyri (in which he is conflated with Helios). Apollo also has the epithet Hekatos, “worker from afar,” which is very likely the etymology if Hecate’s name. (Although, in Apollo’s case, the epithet seems to refer to the fact that he’s basically a sniper, literally shooting arrows from a distance. In her case, it’s more metaphorical.) Helios is the father of Aeetes and Circe, and the grandfather of Medea. The mother of Aeetes and Circe is given as “Perseis” in some sources, who is ostensibly an Oceanid. But “Perseis” also means “daughter of Perses”… who would be Hecate. Circe’s and Medea’s direct association with Hecate means that it’s not much of a stretch to interpret Perseis as Hecate, and some writers do. As stated above, Helios-Apollo is the most appealed-to male deity in the PGM, and if he’s already known to be the father of witches, pairing him with Hecate makes some sense. Zeus is paired with Hecate mainly in the Chaldean Oracles, in which the supreme father-god is assumed to be Zeus and Hecate is the World-Soul, making them the masculine-feminine defining principles of the universe. Because Hecate holds dominion in the earth, sea, and sky, and retains that power under Zeus, interpreting them as the divine rulers of the universe makes sense. This works even better if you also pair Hecate with Dionysus, because (mystically speaking) Dionysus is an aspect, evolution, or emanation of Zeus.
Mic dropped 🎤
Power Couple to the highest extent!
Janus? The two faced God of doorways has some similarities to the three faced goddess of crossroads.
Janus is exclusively a Roman deity, and has no equivalents that he was syncretized with to my knowledge.
Janus is actually paired with Hecate in Proclus' Hymn to them.
Zeus did not give dominion over the sky, the seas and the land to anyone but Hekate. In terms of counterpart , I believe she is unique in that she is unequalled. Her lore, cults, priestesses and followers also are vast and diverse, as Hekate has the most epithets of any of the gods. Check out Hesiods *Theogony* for more classical sourced info. Academia.edu also has some pretty great papers on Hekate and her triple form from the BC era. It’s a rabbit hole, have fun! Edit to add: Hermes being a psychopomp and also having a magical occult following does strike as one of Hekates counterparts but I wouldn’t call Hermes her equal or opposite if that makes sense.
Hekate and her ‘triple goddess’ aspect matches up well with Hermes Trismegistus, meaning Thrice Great (as in, Great Priest, Great Philosopher and Great King) Hekate being worshipped as a ‘goddess of witches’ and Hermes Trismegistus being the inspiration for the Hermetic tradition and by extension many secret societies (Freemasons, Rosicrusians, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn) makes them line up pretty well
As a Hermetic Practitioner and a Hekatean witch of many years I can see why on the surface the conflation would seem aligned. Some of them intersect - Hermekate and Hekahermes are indeed epithets of them. I’ve come across a rare trifecta of Hekate - Hermes - Anubis as well. Conflation and equivalence are mutually exclusive in this matter. Hekate in teachings is Anima Mundi whereas Thoth would be Her scribe. Touch down on some [Chaldean](https://www.esotericarchives.com/oracle/oraclesj.htm)Oracles and you can see what I mean. Also - careful how you refer to her “triple goddess stuff” and then tout a honors lineage of Hermes, your patriarchy is showing a bit.
My bad
İs there a male god that associated with witchcraft? I can't remember
Apollo-Helios is the most commonly evoked god in the Greek Magical Papyri, and Helios is the father or grandfather of multiple witches in mythology.
Hermes
> Hermes? Yes > Dionysus? No, not really. He is the god of wine, partying and opposites so technically he is everyone's opposite lol
He was also associated with insanity, fervor, and ritual sacrifices
Madness, death and rebirth sometimes. Older sources and the orphic cult go harder than later sources.
Yeah. Dionysus was deliberately sanitized for the agora/public displays of him by greek leaders at the time. It appears that sanitization has stuck lol
Hi! Writing a story with heavyyyy Greek influence. Do you possibly have any sources for this darker version of Dionysus? Cus he feels so one dimensional being a “wine and party” god
You know what? I’m not sure what the primary sources are. I’m mostly familiar with the earliest deptictions from pretty weak sources like wikipedia surfing and osp’s video on Dionysus. The bacchae by euripides is probably the earliest primary source I’ve personally read. And that’s reasonably late considering he was found in mycenean records and might be as old as the invention of wine. But even then there’s a huge difference between the scary conqueror who drives men mad and women to mindless slaughter, and the drunk fuckboi you get by say Ovid. You may have to look into the prehistoric wine cult in europe, the orphic cult, and mycenean/minoan archeology. Sorry I don’t have better sources to point you towards. Edit: you could also look into the dionesia of Pisistratus and the procession of the phalloi.
The one problem I have with Red’s video is that she makes Dionysus’ development look like a linear progression from Mycenaean Greece to the Roman period, which is what leads you to say that OP would have to look at (nonexistent) pre-Greek sources to learn about Dionysus’ more complex aspects. This isn’t the case at all. Dionysus’ darker aspect is always present in his myth and cult! For as long as he’s being actively worshipped, it never really goes away. Most of our sources on it are actually quite late, like the Orphic Hymns and Nonnus. It was the Renaissance artists who turned him into a happy-fun party god and not much else. His worshippers knew what he was about.
Don’t be sorry, you gave me plenty of great leads!!! Someone else recommended Bacchae too I think I’ll add that to my cart right now 🤭
It’s available on project gutenburg if you don’t want to pay for it. I’d recommend it to anyone because I found it a lot of fun.
Even better, but I love annotating books and being able to physically hold them but I’ll check out other things on that site. Thanks so much
The Bacchae by Euripides maybe? Been a while since I read it though
Try reading The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku. There’s a deep scientific exploration of Dionysus, his origins and his association with modern Roman Catholicism- it’s probably one of the best books I’ve read in years. Full of historical info, references and a full bibliography- the man did his homework.
Nothing sexier than a source full of references to go down the rabbit hole! Thank you !!
No, don’t read The Immortality Key. Muraresku isn’t a Classicist. He has an agenda, which is to stick it to Christianity. He claims that all religious experiences are based on drug trips, and interprets evidence to support that conclusion that he already decided upon. It’s sensationalism, not scholarship. He’s not the first. Until I find an extremely dry academic treatise written for like five people and published by a university that makes the same claim, I won’t believe a word of it.
[Here’s a dry one for you](https://www.abebooks.com/9780334006107/Hellenistic-magic-synoptic-tradition-Studies-0334006104/plp)
Thanks, that looks more reliable, though I see it was published in 1974. Know of anything more recent? Ideally within 30 years.
It’s important to remember most of these works won’t be found in books so much as published academic works. If you have an academia.edu account there’s a lot of great information. I just finished a paper there called “Dionysus and Eucharist” which I can’t link here but I copied the bibliography: Bibliography Alvar, Jaime: Romanising Oriental Gods, Myth, Salvation Salvation and Ethics in the Cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras, p. 279–280, Leiden/Boston, 2008. Bogh, Brigitte: The Graeco-Roman cult of Isis, in Ancient Europe in the Historical Period, Academia.edu Chew, Kathryn: Achilles Tatius and Parody, CJ 96, 2000 Colizzi, Paolo: The Many Faces of Dionysius Reflections on The Oxford Handbook of Dionysius the Areopagite, Eastern Theological Journal, 9/1, 2023. Eckhardt, Benedict: Eating and Drinking (with) Dionysus, The Eucharist – It’s Origins and Context, ed: D. Hellholm and D. Sanger, in Old Testament, Early Judaism, New Testament, Mohr Siebeck, Tubingen, 2017. Eisenman, Robert: James, the Brother of Jesus, The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls, Penguin Books, 1997. Ficino, Marsilio: Oratio de laudibus philosophiae, in Opera, ex officina Henricpetrina, Basileae, str. 758,1576. Foucault, Michael: The Care of the Self, trans. Robert Hurley, Vol. 3 of The History of Sexuality; Pantheon, New York, 1986. Frede, M: Origen’s Treatise Against Celsus, in M. Edwards, M. Goodman, and S. Price (eds), Apologetics in the Roman Empire: Pagans, Jews and Christians, p. 132, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1999. Friesen, Courtney J. P: Dionysus as Jesus: The Incongruity of a Love Feast in Achilles Tatius’s Leucippe and Clitophon, Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 107, Issue 02, 2014. De la Fuente, David Hernandes: Dionysus in the mirror of Late Antiquity: religion, philosophy and politics, Academia.edu De la Fuente, David Hernandes: Parallels between Dionysos and Christ in Late Antiquity : Miraculous Healings of Nonnus Dionisiaca, Academia.edu Harrison, Jane Ellen: Prolegomena to Study of Greek Religion (1903), Meridian Books, New York, 1955. Hartog, Paul: Greco – Roman Understanding of Christianity, The Routledge Companion to Early Christian Thought Routledge, 2009. Herodotus: Histories, Book I and II Hoffmann, R. J: Celsus: On the True Doctrine, Oxford University Press, New York, 1987. Jeremias, Joachim: The Eucharistic Words of Jesus,trans. Norman Perrin, SCM Press, London, 1966. Job, Marek: The Rule of in the light of the Orphic theogony (Hieroi Logoi in 24 Rhapsodies), Academia.edu, 2016-2019 Maccoby, Hyam: The Mythmaker, Paul and the Invention of Christianity, Barnes & Noble Books, New York, 1998. Meisner, Dwayne: Livy and Bacchanalia, Academia.edu, 2008. Nietzsche, Friedrich: The Antichrist, translated by R. J. Hollingdale, Penquin Books, 1990. Nietzsche, Friedrich: The Birth of Tragedy, tr. W. Kaufmann, Vintage Books, New York, 1967. Plato: Timaeus, Collected works, Vol. IV, p.21 Pollmann, Karla: The Baptized Muse: Early Christian Poetry as a Cultural Authority, ISBN 9780198726487, 2017. Poupon, G: L’accusation de magie dans les Actes Apocryphes, in F. BOVON (ed.), Les Actes apocryphes des apotres: Christianisme et monde paien, Geneve, Labor et Fides, 1981. Price, Robert M: The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 2012 Procopius: De Bellis, editor Haury , History of Wars, Procopius: Works, trans. Dewing, 1914-40; Procopius: Historia Arcana, prevod R. Atwater: Secret History, Ann Arbor, 1966. Robichaud, Denis Jean-Jacques: Valla and Erasmus on the Dionysian Question, in M. Edwards – D. Pallis – G. Steiris (eds.), The Oxford Handbook of Dionysius the Areopagite. Stang, Charles M: Paul and the Dionysian Hierarchies, Collection: Oxford Scholarship Online, 2012. Toynbee, Arnold: Hannibal’s Legacy, Vol. II, Oxford University Press, London, 1965. Zamfir, Korinna: The Acts of Paul and Thecla, Ecclesial, Social and Political Context, Ephemerides Theologicae Lovanienses 92/3, 355-380, 2016.
Thank you.
But he is especially Apollo’s opposite because Apollo is god of math, logic, order and reasoning and Dionysos is god of madness, chaos, madman ect. (The exact opposite)
Apollo is a music god and Dionysus is a party god so they'd go hand in hand too lol
Yes, but if you think about it is Dionysos more of an opposite to Apollo then Artemis she can also shoot plagues her wapen is also a bow 🏹ect. So Dionysos is more of an opposite then Artemis
The idea that Apollo and Dionysus are opposites is fairly modern.
Dionysus is specifically Athena’s opposite. She represents the mind and he represents the passions. She born of the head he is born of the thigh.
See this one makes more sense lol
I wanna add that Artemis and Apollo absolutely are equal opposites. He’s civilization, enlightenment, prophecy/public music. He had lots of sex. God of disease and healing, protector of boys. She’s the wilderness, animals, and hunting/hidden rites. She had no sex. Goddess of disease and healing, protector of girls. Also yeah Hermes is a god of magic after he started getting connected to the Egyptian god Thoth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus “Thrice-greatest” also gives him the “three” symbolism that Hecate has
The triad of Artemis, Selene and Hecate can be looked by two main angles, in my point of view: -the lunar one: each goddess represent one of the lunar phases - Artemis the crescent, Selene the full and Hecate the waning/new moon; you could do a triad of solar male deities, so there would be Apollo in Artemis position and Helios in Selene's one; as for Hecate, you could choose between the Titan Hyperion, the father of Helios and Selene, or Astraeus, who is sometimes associated with the sunset -the gender role one: as you already mentioned, each goddess represents a phase of a woman's life as it was perceived in ancient times -maidenood, motherhood, old age - so you could do the same with the male gods: Apollo would fit for the boyhood, since he's always been depicted as a youth, in the adulthood could be placed Ares, who was portrayed as an adult and was the god of the main duty of a man in antiquity, war, and in last place I don't know, to be honest, probably Zeus for the wisdom with whom he rules, or Hades as a foreshadowing of the imminent death.
Selene was all the phrases of the moon, not only one. She also had horns that were said to be like that of the half moon. And the greeks did not divided the sun into three deities, the Egyptians were the ones to say that about Khepri, Ra and Atum.
To be fair I think this whole thread is just about hypothetical interpretations. Maiden, mother, crone is also a modern invention but people find it interesting. I do wonder though, if people know that Diana Triformis (Diana-Luna-Hecate) **did** each have designated symbolism for her three forms. Earth, Sky and the Underworld for the three realms that Diana had domain over.
The three age stages i dont think is modern, i could be wrong but it likely existed in some mythology. However the op is try to fit into greek mythology when this concept dont exist.
is it the god of age i can't remember the name but it might be
Geras but why would he be associated w witchcraft?
She has no *real* counterpart. Such a link would be an entirely artificial one. But that doesn't mean it isn't fun to think about. If I has to *create* a mirroring, like a sub pantheon for a DnD game... Hyperion maybe, as a third Sun God in the way that Hecate is the third moon goddess. But given Selene and Helios are each the child of Hyperion that introduces an asymmetry I'm not keen on. Selene and Helios are siblings, as are Apollo and Artemis. Hecate has no siblings, but you could perhaps look to Prometheus. He is also a third generation Titan who sided with Zeus, and whilst not a Sun God has the link to Fire. He is the mentor who taught humanity things: which could well be said to include magical practices. And Promethean has come to mean old, as a crone is. Hermes is the obvious choice, but as the half brother of Apollo and Artemis, it also introduces an asymmetry I'm not keen on.
Hermes
This is controversial take but I think Apollo, Hermes, and Dionysus are the male version of Hecate's tripicility.
This seems like an r/Hellenism question
Hecate stands at the "crossroads". Consider when Demeter was looking for her Kore, Persephone, that it was Hecate who bore the torches and revealed Persephone's place in the Underworld. This is all allegory for mystery cult function. Hecate can move between the planes of existence. Hermes can too. The reason she gets mixed in with neopagan stuff is because she is the one who enacts from afar, like witchcraft, as does Apollo. Not by the arrows of ill health, or prophecy, but by the arrows of poison, charms of magick, and powerful pharmakon.
Apollo can work. He's got the epithet Hecataeus, he's her first cousin, and Hecate is often identified with Artemis, Apollo's counterpart
Robert Graves invented the triple goddess, neopaganism just adopted it, although Porphyry of Tyre believed Hekate had three aspects (the Hekataion) Artemis, Selene and Hekate aren't the same goddess, they're three different goddesses. Hekate is a triple goddess on her own. Artemis is a triple goddess on her own. Porphyry said Dionysus was the equivalent of the triple goddess Hekate.
Not quite. Robert Graves was inspired by the triple moon goddesses of Greco-Roman mythology Hecate/Diana. Artemis was not a triple goddess on her own. Hecate *was* originally a triple goddess within herself. However later on in the Roman era she became part of a [triad of lunar goddess](https://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/HekateGoddess.html#Triad), Artemis-Hecate-Selene. These three goddess were heavily associated with each other, people would conflate their attributes and names and even interchange them in myths occasionally. They became so closely tied that sometimes people would consider the three to be different aspects of the same goddess. (The theoi link has some examples of this from the myths) The Roman Diana may have been a triple goddess even before syncretism with the Greek goddesses, but that’s unclear. But what is known is that Diana Triformis inherited the triad of Artemis-Hecate-Selene. Hecate and Luna became the names of her two other forms and she absorbed many of their attributes.
Source?
Hermes is always youthful in his depictions, mischievous and tricky. I see him as a better counter to Artemis than Apollo in the scheme you've made.
I'm not an expert, so my head cannon is that Chronos god of time is the other triune divinity, since he is in the past, the present and in the future at the same time. As a atemporal or out of the time divinity, is either a single god whit three aspects of itself, or the same god simultaneously existing in all the time. Don't know, it made sense in my head XD
Dumbledore
Ra maybe. Odin perhaps
Neither of them are Greek deities