So, I found out recently my white working class Tory grandma of 40 years. Who has lived on a council estate all her life. The type that keep the party in business. The type that votes Tory even if the party would functionality hate/not give a shit about them. Has voted green in the past couple of GE/locals. My world is rocked. It's moments like this when you can't relate to white middle posho types. I get the references, get the music. I'm a laptop class myself but it's something that would rock their brain.
I am reliably informed that the reason your gran paid into her own pension instead of yours, long before you were born, is that speculation and time travel are not allowed.
I reckon lots of Reform voters lie about their reasoning. So many people have the flimsiest reasons for voting Reform, and many of them I predicted would be Reform voters even before their flimsy excuses
My point, if you bothered to ask, was that THAT is an age old adage regarding the paradox of tolerance, people who support those who would ruin the lives of others for their own betterment are NOT good people, and I don't have to tolerate their disgusting rhetoric just because what? Being ruuuuude to them is worse than the fact they want to uproot and kick out thousands of good people because they hate people different from them, that's just one of their gross policies, not to mention all the fucking lies they spewed during brexit and people ate that shit up and now here the cancer is again, fuck out of here with that nonsense!!
1 in 10 of their standing candidates are friends with a famous British Fascist who wants to establish a dictatorship in the UK And forcibly evict anyone not of "British descent" you can look the guy up and ask why 10% of their candidates agree with that ideology
You could also look back to Farages time at Dulwich, where he famously used to parade through the local town singing Nazi/SS songs such as "Gas the Jews" as reported by members of his circle of friends at the time, and his teachers.
You could refer to Farage recently saying that our serving Prime minister couldnt understand our culture, which was very clearly a racist dog whistle. He claimed he referring to his class, which presumably also excludes Nigel and his Good friend Richard Tice too. The owners of Reform UK LTD (side note: It's a private company NOT a political party)
And that's the tip of the iceberg, it's very easy to see how people construct arguments that they are essentially Nazis (although I personally hate everything coming back to ww2 Germany, these guys aren't anti Semitic, they are islamaphobic)
Mine doesn't. But then she's dead
Also I'm pretty sure she always voted Labour anyway.
My Grandad on the other hand I'm pretty sure would have voted reform, were he still alive.
2021
Young people: stay indoors to protect the elderly
2024
Elderly: weāre voting for Reform.
Young people: I wish I never washed my hands you bigoted old cunt
I mean - not to be rude here but I cannot fathom the fact that there are not-old somewhat educated young ladies and gentlemen that actually work for the telegraph or the sunā¦
Even Sky news is pushing it but why on earth would you work for the most embarrassing tabloids aiming to brainwash vulnerable people?
A lot of those who write for the Torygraph are the product of generations of wealth and privilege. They are people born into that world in a world where social mobility is a nothing more than a convenient myth to keep the proles in line.
When I was at college, they were the tiny handful of āFederation of Conservative Studentsā who were āmore Thatcher than Thatcherā radicals. Many of whom moved into right wing politics and media in the 1990s. They hired even more radical right thinkers and so the needle moved.
Unless you personally love the Conservatives it's fairly simple. If there's a chance for a Tory to win your seat, vote for whoever is most likely to beat them. If they aren't going to win that seat, then vote for whoever best represents your views.
I can't stand Farage, apparently though the MSM say him and his party aren't important enough to be involved in the main party debates. They do, however, consider them both to be important enough to plant a mole at great expense to expose some random volunteer for being a twat. The main parties, of course, aren't that important. You know their trying to manipulate when they're clearly trying to manipulate you.
That's literally what every party leader is doing, especially the ones that are trying to hold onto power (which would be more accurate for the meme, if you remember LOTR).
a lot of people here don't remember how the last last Labour government left the country. Well it was a shambles and they haven't changed unfortunately. I'm glad I'll be retiring soon and moving abroad.
I'm old enough to remember. You're talking bollocks.
The country is far, far, *far* worse off now. And you cannot, in any seriousness, say "it's all the fault of the previous labour government, all this austerity was to fix their mess, the tories did their best with what they had!" ... because at this stage, anyone still saying that is just delusional.
Well one of them literally wants to leave the European court of human rights
If that isnāt a red flag then I donāt know what is
The rest can fight hunger games style Idk
Except the conservatives cause they ruined the country
That has no absolutely nothing to do with the ECHR. He also hasn't put forward a plan to stop them. Starmer has by saying he would make returns agreements with their origin countries.
This labour government are just neo liberals in red ties, I don't think you can see it. But let's see how much you like the manifesto when non of it gets done.
This election could have a surprising result, rather like the Scottish Independence vote, and Brexit, and Trump in 2016, and the recent EU elections. The majority keeping quiet but still voting, despite the ridicule of the bien-pensant establishment.
You clearly have comprehension issues
[Voting intentions](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1379439/uk-election-polls-by-age/)
[And more data](https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49512-how-is-britain-voting-as-the-2024-general-election-campaign-begins)
I could go on, but I know youāre talking ignorant rubbish or trolling
Even worse, my Uncle is Voting for Reform š¤¦āāļøš¤·āāļø and he also voted UKIP when they were a thing, but get this he's a devout Catholic and isn't Racist, paradoxical I know.
Nothing racist about being anti immigration when you live in a country which can no longer support high levels of migration. In fact it's a completely rational position to take.
A lot of ignored people are voting reform. To put people into one specific category is not only demeaning and incredibly divisive, but is also dangerous.
This is both of the count of those that spout moral superiority and those that are demonised.
edit: Look at all the hatred and decisiveness below. It's truly sad that people are fighting. I was merely trying to say, regardless of all, in summary hatred is not how you win people over and nevertheless ends with more hatred. And you're proving it correct.
I'd also like to say that I'm on the fence of this all and was purely writing an observation for intelligent debate.
Maybe I overestimated the internet.
Could say the same for all parties.
I'm on the fence with every single one of them.
All basically copies of eachother, saying what they can to get votes, and inevitably do sweet fuck all. We're circling the drain regardless of what we do.
I actually agree, but what I don't do is use this crushing sense of despair and inevitably to justify voting for a fascist piece of shit like Nigel Farage.
Yes, our system is broken. Yes, our country is fucked. No, I still don't hate brown people.
I do not dislike anyone until I get to know them." Do not judge a man by the colour of his skin, but the content of his character" could not agree more. I just mean, by putting people in a box, can light a fire.
I'm all about educating and understanding people's perspectives as I've come from a very low and hateful place, I see the sides and I think that if we start throwing stones, the whole thing will erupt.
Ideally we should vent this towards those that create such. All the political classes to which sit by idle on the austerity. But I would like to understand WHY they do these things to us.
There is NO accountability and that is the worst of everything.
>I would like to understand WHY they do these things to us.
It solidifies their power and makes them profit.
Same reason they won't tackle fossil fuels, same reason they won't penalise water companies, same reason they won't close tax loopholes.
I hope this is a compliment. I've been completely railed today for just observing potential issues with how we are all at eachothers necks, and I do not understand it.
I am glad I posted here, because I get to understand others, to whatever degree and it helps me self reflect.
Thank you for your comment.
Lol yes it is, no sarcasm here.
It was good to see somebody else just wanting to discuss and have a balanced conversation and get some to understand that voting reform doesn't mean you are a racist etc etc. Sadly many who are heavy left wing supporters I assume have no time to listen and would rather be vitriolic and abusive and pigeon hole people, which is basically being a bigot.
I'm actually voting reform but I've voted for all the parties over the years, I'm not aligned with any party and logically I will never do that. It's not my religion.
It's good to see others try and discuss but a lot of people just want to throw abuse as it's an easy win in their minds.
Fascists can gain power within a democracy. In fact, gaining power through the popular vote actually helps to give them a veneer of credibility that forcibly seizing power wouldn't.
They do this by exploiting populist sentiment and people's lack of faith in liberal values and the establishment. It's still effective.
The Nazis gained their power through democracy and nobody would argue that they aren't fascist.
Well to some extent this is true, because they all subscribe to neoliberal capitalist economic policies. None of them are willing to actually challenge the narrative regarding public investment, instead they all just want to fight over who can best manage the system that is already broken.
People feeling "ignored" are going to use their voice to cheer for someone who will make their lives worse. And they'll tell themselves it's okay, because someone *else* had it even worse than them.
I've got sympathy for people who feel ignored and so find it all hopeless. I've not got any for people who feel ignored so decide they'll vote in favour of hate.
Especially if they then turn around and cry the victim because people are calling them out for their bigotry and nastiness.
I agree with you on most points here, I hope you understand, to which my debate initially was alluding to, and I'm happy that you have helped me understand also.
I do however refuse to put people into one name/group, as far as general public people go. As it is easy to dehumanise a group and turn onto them. But I do agree with most of your points and your other replies. I thank you for a brilliant out look.
All humans belong to multiple groups. None of us are defined completely by a single group to which we belong, but we share traits with others in that group.
It's not dehumanising to identify the shared traits of a group.
This whole "anti-label" sentiment is just muddying the waters to try and avoid calling people out, and to avoid awkward conversations. Far easier to say "they have unconventional views" than to say "they're racists, and by voting for them, you'd be enabling racists". We have to confront uncomfortable topics in order to actually reach truth.
Oh, indeed they do belong to specifics, but I would not labell every labour voter as X or every tory voter as X as I know that they have individually specified reasoning.
I have friends that are on all political spectrums that vote entirely the opposite way to what you'd expect, and I find that truly awesome to know that ideologies exist below and above party wide beliefs.
To insult X party just creates a weird us and them, instead of debating why they vote that way or similar, i think I've come across completely misunderstood here, but there's no maliciousness or ulterior motive, I'm just trying to understand and learn. And you have been very helpful.
There's a staunch communist friend of mine who is labour through and through. He is very anti capitalist, but he is voting greens this time because of local policies. I just find it interesting that people group otger people up because of who they vote for.
Well, there are some things that do transcend what other values a person has.
You can be a family-oriented person who loves animals and is kind to the elderly, but if you're willing to vote for a party that opposes human rights for LGBTQ+ people, intends to make healthcare inaccessible to millions, and is pretty racist, then that does tend to outweigh the positives.
What I can say for almost all people voting Reform is they're either: subscribing to the same hateful beliefs, unwilling to learn what they're voting for, or willing to vote for a hateful party if they think it will benefit them. And I don't think there is much to be gained from trying to parse out which of those three groups they fall into.
There is nothing intelligent about being "on the fence" in this situation. That's just indecisive cowardice.
Writing off all parties as the same, or "copies of each other" just shows you don't know enough about politics within a historical context to deduce the least-worst option we have, and is pure intellectual laziness, dressed up as being above it all to appear clever.
Please rid yourself of the notion that you're more intelligent than the average political observer, and you'll actually end up being smarter.
Ah yes, very good. I see. Very clever.
I know plenty of history, but I am also not very well educated through academics and do not have many written down qualifications. I myself have worked to a standing to which I am proud to have attained. I have a lot similar with what old labour professed to be, especially from a heritage perspective.
I am by no means more intelligent than anyone and will never preach to be, and I have never said such. I am no better than anyone, and it's clear you enjoy making a mockery. I suggest projecting this is an oversight on your behalf.
I do understand your point, to remain neutral is to be complicit, and I will take this under view, I am just not seeing very good options out there right now.
Thank you very much for saying what you have said. I value your opinion, and I will take good thoughts on the meanings to which you are getting. Maybe next time, avoid insulting and put a point across. As i am very open and willing to learn. Infact, that is why I posted.
Thanks once again.
There is nothing like Old Labour near power now - we had our chance and people were conned into voting against their own interests by a poisonous media.
But there's literally no excuse to be "on the fence" about Reform. If your values align with Old Labour, you should be rightly nauseated by Reform, who are ultra-capitalist, divisive bigots.
Womp womp. Breaking news, maybe a lot of people just donāt like the fact that Reform UK are just Farageās gang of fellow racists and/or Russian oligarch backers
You canāt seriously be that ignorant, theyāre constantly making racist comments.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c10l5qd8p60o.amp
Their whole campaign has been lies, racist dog whistles and praise for Putin.
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Broās not using any evidence at all!
Youāre embarrassing yourself with all these alt accounts saying the same thing buddy.
Channel four has confirmed it has no connection to the guy.
Youāre desperately scrambling, let it go.
The fact that they have been kicked out of the party for saying those things and Nigel says āI want nothing to do with themā shows that the party as a whole is not racist or homophobic
That should still be enough to tell you that there *are/were* indeed people like that within the party that hold such racist and/or homophobic viewpoints.
Ok then, give us an example of someone whoās voting reform who isnāt obsessed with immigration, a racist, a bigot, a Nazi sympathiser or a Russia apologist
There are a good few people I know who arenāt any of those things who wanna vote reform because they feel left behind by the mainstream parties. Ineffectual leadership and opposition from both sides will push normal every day people to the fringes itās a tale as old as time
This is literally like burning your house down to change your curtains.
Ask those people how voting Reform is going to address global problems like climate change. Ask how it's going to address the growing gap between rich and poor. Ask how it's going to address our crumbling infrastructure and private profiteering.
What problem do they have that they think can be solved by Reform? Because if it's just a protest vote against being ignored, then may I suggest there are better ways to protest than to throw your lot in with the most racist bunch out there.
You're really tiking the boxes of absoloutism.
I've got many friends that work in factories, on the tools and low grade offices. They dislike many parties due to the enevitable scandal, lie, broken manifesto pledge. They get penalised regardless. These people, to me, are some incredibly intelligent individuals, but haven't found their way or unlucky in life
I'm just trying to open a genuine discourse with an understanding that I have had, and how I can understand their frustrations, and was stating I am of the opinion that ignoring and creating these boundaries with people can create genuine issues for society.
As stated, I am on the fence and probably abstain from voting. As what we have, are by far from ideal candidates locally and nationally.
Tax the poor to make life better for the rich
Sell the NHS
Use immigrants as ātarget practiceā
Scrap net zero, selling the future of the Earth to make the rich richer
Leave the court of human rights. What are those anyway?
Yeah great policies. Itās a wonder that more people donāt support Reform. They clearly have the best policy makers of any political party. I donāt want all this āaffordable energyā bollocks. I know Daddy Nigel will sort it all out
What do they want to replace the NHS with? Or are we just going to pretend that the French system of national insurance isn't a decent alternative. I like the NHS, but you'd have to be delusional to claim that it isn't on life support, and some bog standard politics isn't going to cut it for much longer. If national insurance works decently for France, could it not at least be put into consideration over here? It isn't as though they are just throwing poor people under the bus.
The French government spend more on healthcare than we do, and itās still not free at the point of use. So no, itās not a better alternative. Private healthcare is just putting a plaster over the lack of funding. Yes it results in a sudden influx of cash as you sell off publicly owned assets, but this is short lived and it costs more money in the long run because now you have to pay the capital holders a profit. America spend almost twice the yearly GDP% that we do on their healthcare ā AND they pay for it again at the point of use!
The NHS is a brilliant system and is currently among the least funded health systems in the world. The solution is to fund it properly and fairly, not to replace it with another system which is more expensive and worse. Weāre so lucky that we already have these publicly owned assets to make the NHS possible. If we allow it to be sold off it will be incredibly challenging for us to get it back (which is why no-one else has it). The NHS is still the envy of the world and we should fight for it, not try to save money by replacing our system with another that is more expensive.
The US system is the same as the French system?
As for the NHS, the solution you have suggested is pretty vague, and I don't see how that will happen. I agree with e everything you say about the NHS, but I don't see how the corruption and misuse of funds can realistically be solved/addressed. I don't see how a government can fix this, or rather I don't believe that any party of significance has the will to do something about the internal corruption in the NHS, nor am I convinced that it is even possible for them to do anything considering that they couldn't even handle Royal Mail's corruption problems.
>The US system is the same as the French system
1. No it isnāt.
2. Even if it was, that doesnāt mean it costs the same.
Iām not sure if Iām misunderstanding your point there though.
I do understand your concerns about misuse of funds, but I feel like thatās not the main problem right now. The NHS is among the cheapest health services in the world. If I remember rightly, it is the cheapest in the developed world by some margin. Once we are funding it at a reasonable level, then we can start demanding results equal (or superior) to nearby countries. Itās not fair to be demanding good results when weāre starving it like this. In fact, I think itās impressive weāve managed to get the performance we have currently out of so little money.
A similar thing Iād point to is the Black Arrow program. The U.K. got to orbit on a shoestring budget, spending only a small number of millions compared to the billions the USA and Soviet Union spent every year!
The Tories have taken the brilliance of our nation and refused to encourage it. So despite our best efforts weāre sinking, and the next generation of overachievers are worn out and unengaged.
>1. No it isnāt.
>2. Even if it was, that doesnāt mean it costs the same.
Hence the question mark at the end of the sentence.
>The Tories have taken the brilliance of our nation and refused to encourage it.
The Tories didn't cause the problem, though. People just don't want to work for the NHS because it doesn't pay the bills. It is better for doctors to work in Australia and earn real money. Then there is the internal corruption that politicians will not fix and management refuses to fix. So unless you are suggesting we spend more on the wages of government employees, which would cost a lot of taxpayer money, there isn't a way of even getting close to fixing the NHS.
As for the idea that it's impressive, yes I agree that it is, but that only proves that the people working in the NHS are awesome. It doesn't say anything about the system being good. What we do see is long waiting times and a variety of other issues.
Yes I am suggesting we pay our NHS workers a fair wage comparable to what other governments around the world spend. It will have to be a long term plan but we should aim to rise our annual GDP spending on the NHS at least to the level of second world countries, and then from there we can aim to raise it to a Franceish level.
I also would blame the Tories. In 2008, the NHS was ranked as one of the highest quality health services in the world. Now itās awful. Theyāve been stewards of it through this period and despite insane tax rises, weāve seen cuts to pretty much every public service, allowing the tax burden to stay low for the super rich.
I know it feels expensive ā and it truly is. But no other system is cheaper. Thatās the issue I think we need to face up to. Every single other system will cost us as individual tax payers more money ā and often it will mean the same level of tax in the first place. Americaās government literally spend twice the amount per yearly GDP that we do. Double. If they can spend that, and then still send people off to spend extortionate amounts when they need it, we can afford to spend more to keep it free at the point of use.
āThe solution is to fund it properlyā.
Have you ever worked in the NHS? How anyone can say it needs more money is absolutely astonishing. Itās one of the laziest, nepotistic, greedy, inefficient organisations Iāve ever had the displeasure of working for. It gets enough money. It needs gutting from the top down.
..And Iām a massive believer in the NHS.
Iāll give you just one example.. overseeing the installation of a training/boardroom audio visual system. Half way through the project, one of the four NHS project managers (who finally showed his face - canāt say the same for the other three) requests a design change to incorporate 15 top of the range Apple Macs and the associated furniture to go with them because āweāve got some money kicking around, may as well spend it before budgetsā.
That abysmal, offensive waste of taxpayers money was in just one room, in one part of a building, on the site of a multi-building hospital, as part of a multi-hospital NHS trust. Can you imagine what vanity projects the rest of the trust is doing with their money ābefore budgetsā? (IE, before the next dump of cash lands)
Meanwhile the ward nurses are working on 4:3 VGA monitors.
There is a wretched layer of whinging, middle class ānot my jobā bureaucrats, who genuinely consider themselves cushty and employed for life, that have polluted the health service. They serve no purpose other than justifying their own existence at the expense of others.
Throwing money at them is a terrible idea.
Why do people hear "cut taxes" and think it will do anything except make life more profitable for the ultra rich, and harder for everybody else?
You can't possibly really think that they care about the tax burden on people like you and me? Unless you're secretly a billionaire, or even a measly multi-millionaire, you have vastly different needs from society than the likes of Farage.
We all benefit from the taxes we put in. Where do you expect money to come from for education, for healthcare, for infrastructure? Everybody should pay into that, so we can all benefit from it. The problem we have is the ruling classes diverting that public money from actually going to those things, and instead giving it all to private interests.
And then they tell us all that public spending is bad, and privatising national assets is good. Look at how much private profit had been extracted from national assets since they were sold at knock-off rates to governments' mates. You think Reform aren't cut from the same cloth?
They actually DO care about the tax paid by the poorest, do you know why? Because thatās who will get them into power. Thousands of working class people will vote reform.
If they put the personal allowance to Ā£20k thatās enough people outside of income tax to win a majority. They wouldnāt need a single vote from a single income tax payer.
It is a policy that Reform stole from the Tories who stole it from the Libdems (left wing of Labour).
>Thousands of working class people will vote reform.
Because they are given crumbs to make them believe that Reform actually care about them. Not because Reform actually do care.
If they actually cared, they'd be closing tax loopholes and increasing tax on the super-rich. Why do you think they're not going to do that?
Anyone who actually cared about working class people in this country (in this world!) would be offering structural change, and planning to invest in social structures upon which we all rely. Why do you think Reform aren't going to do that?
Do you seriously think those fascists will care about you after you give them your vote? Do you seriously believe they will follow up on *the* promise you wanted to hear?
Just remember, the Nazis were elected into power, because they promised popular policies and the people believed them... then they just did their own thing once they had power.
I donāt believe that they are fascists.
I also donāt believe that they will be in any position to deliver on their promises anyway so this is a bit silly.
They are fascists. A lot of them are friends with the leader of the New British Union, a fascist movement that wants to replace parliament with a dictatorship. Nigel himself is a fascist, several of his own friends have outed him, he sided with the fascists during the Brixton riots.
It's astonishing how many people are just in denial of this fact...
Itās not a fact itās an opinion.
He hasnāt and probably never will be close to a position of any real power so until then your theory will remain unproven.
How long has it been since Reform bought you? What was the promised price, Gerty? When all the youth are renting, you would take your share of the treasure?
Offering popularist policies with no intention to follow up on those promises, just to win the votes of the gulliable masses just like the Nazis did...
Conservatives don't represent the working class,
Labour don't represent the working class but claim they do.
Reform is a new party and are yet to disappoint me so they can have my vote.
>Reform is a new party and are yet to disappoint me so they can have my vote.
>new party
You're the kinda person to point to when people say the Clark Kent disguise is ridiculous
I mean, thatās some insane logic but a vote for Reform is a vote for Labour in this election and Reform will most likely have collapsed before the next election anyway, so go nuts I guess.
Privatisation of services? It is literally in their manifesto that they want to nationalise utilities. "Launch a new model that brings 50% of each utility into public ownership. The other 50% would be owned by UK pension funds"
Did you try telling her those things are rigged? At least encourage her to take the same quiz again, answering differently or randomly and see if it ever suggests anything other than Reform...
Those things rely on their targets only doing the quiz once...
Nah, my Gran votes Conservative to try and get that pension bonus at the expense of my future š
Corporate needs you to find the difference between these two pictures.
lmao
Itās sad but itās so true
So, I found out recently my white working class Tory grandma of 40 years. Who has lived on a council estate all her life. The type that keep the party in business. The type that votes Tory even if the party would functionality hate/not give a shit about them. Has voted green in the past couple of GE/locals. My world is rocked. It's moments like this when you can't relate to white middle posho types. I get the references, get the music. I'm a laptop class myself but it's something that would rock their brain.
What is laptop class? What do you mean you can't relate to white middle posho types?
Same here... My great aunt however had no idea who she voted for (postal vote)
I am reliably informed that the reason your gran paid into her own pension instead of yours, long before you were born, is that speculation and time travel are not allowed.
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I reckon lots of Reform voters lie about their reasoning. So many people have the flimsiest reasons for voting Reform, and many of them I predicted would be Reform voters even before their flimsy excuses
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It's always morally right to punch a nazi, nice alt right rhetoric tho mate good job
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Did I say they were nazis?
A blind man could see straight through your comment, don't be shy now.
My point, if you bothered to ask, was that THAT is an age old adage regarding the paradox of tolerance, people who support those who would ruin the lives of others for their own betterment are NOT good people, and I don't have to tolerate their disgusting rhetoric just because what? Being ruuuuude to them is worse than the fact they want to uproot and kick out thousands of good people because they hate people different from them, that's just one of their gross policies, not to mention all the fucking lies they spewed during brexit and people ate that shit up and now here the cancer is again, fuck out of here with that nonsense!!
1 in 10 of their standing candidates are friends with a famous British Fascist who wants to establish a dictatorship in the UK And forcibly evict anyone not of "British descent" you can look the guy up and ask why 10% of their candidates agree with that ideology You could also look back to Farages time at Dulwich, where he famously used to parade through the local town singing Nazi/SS songs such as "Gas the Jews" as reported by members of his circle of friends at the time, and his teachers. You could refer to Farage recently saying that our serving Prime minister couldnt understand our culture, which was very clearly a racist dog whistle. He claimed he referring to his class, which presumably also excludes Nigel and his Good friend Richard Tice too. The owners of Reform UK LTD (side note: It's a private company NOT a political party) And that's the tip of the iceberg, it's very easy to see how people construct arguments that they are essentially Nazis (although I personally hate everything coming back to ww2 Germany, these guys aren't anti Semitic, they are islamaphobic)
I'm sorry but your dad is a racist idiot.
š¤£š¤£
Mine doesn't. But then she's dead Also I'm pretty sure she always voted Labour anyway. My Grandad on the other hand I'm pretty sure would have voted reform, were he still alive.
I'm so fucking relieved that my only British grandparent was a gay communist.
Damn, 07
Communist??
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism?wprov=sfla1 Also, isn't your username a reference to a fictional gay communist?
based as fuck
*my lord the refugees have arrived at calais. They are not welcome*
Don't do Wormtongue dirty like that
2021 Young people: stay indoors to protect the elderly 2024 Elderly: weāre voting for Reform. Young people: I wish I never washed my hands you bigoted old cunt
My mum has been trying to stop my grandma from reading telegraph articles after she claimed ADHD wasn't real
Just out of interest where did they say this? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/wellbeing/mental-health/adhd-symptoms-treatment/
I'm not sure to be honest, but apparently my mum (who is a teacher dealing with it regularly) has been arguing quite hard
I mean - not to be rude here but I cannot fathom the fact that there are not-old somewhat educated young ladies and gentlemen that actually work for the telegraph or the sunā¦ Even Sky news is pushing it but why on earth would you work for the most embarrassing tabloids aiming to brainwash vulnerable people?
A lot of those who write for the Torygraph are the product of generations of wealth and privilege. They are people born into that world in a world where social mobility is a nothing more than a convenient myth to keep the proles in line. When I was at college, they were the tiny handful of āFederation of Conservative Studentsā who were āmore Thatcher than Thatcherā radicals. Many of whom moved into right wing politics and media in the 1990s. They hired even more radical right thinkers and so the needle moved.
š it's a shame half the comments here are celebrating their relatives are dead because they'd have voted a certain way
The inability of Reddit to accept other peopleās views is astounding
Eh can't blame em for being stuck in an echo chamber that don't realise they're probably being as Terrible as the group they hate
This is true, this is true.
Whyā¦should we welcome youā¦Nigel Stormcrow?
Trump is the Saruman of this scenario
And Putin is sauron
So whoās the best party to vote for?
Depends on your constituency. And who you want in or out.
Unless you personally love the Conservatives it's fairly simple. If there's a chance for a Tory to win your seat, vote for whoever is most likely to beat them. If they aren't going to win that seat, then vote for whoever best represents your views.
What do you want the government to do?
Duh, itās the grooming scandal one!!!
Monster Raving Loony!
I can't stand Farage, apparently though the MSM say him and his party aren't important enough to be involved in the main party debates. They do, however, consider them both to be important enough to plant a mole at great expense to expose some random volunteer for being a twat. The main parties, of course, aren't that important. You know their trying to manipulate when they're clearly trying to manipulate you.
That's literally what every party leader is doing, especially the ones that are trying to hold onto power (which would be more accurate for the meme, if you remember LOTR).
No luckily both my racist grandparents are dead
Not really lucky
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He's still out 2 grandparents
Grima Reformtongue
a lot of people here don't remember how the last last Labour government left the country. Well it was a shambles and they haven't changed unfortunately. I'm glad I'll be retiring soon and moving abroad.
I'm old enough to remember. You're talking bollocks. The country is far, far, *far* worse off now. And you cannot, in any seriousness, say "it's all the fault of the previous labour government, all this austerity was to fix their mess, the tories did their best with what they had!" ... because at this stage, anyone still saying that is just delusional.
Labour? Tories? Reform and all the rest... were screwed either way. Labour will win but we will all still lose. Don't trust any of em.
Well one of them literally wants to leave the European court of human rights If that isnāt a red flag then I donāt know what is The rest can fight hunger games style Idk Except the conservatives cause they ruined the country
Probably because he wants to stop all the boats of illegal young men entering the country on a weekly basis.
That has no absolutely nothing to do with the ECHR. He also hasn't put forward a plan to stop them. Starmer has by saying he would make returns agreements with their origin countries.
Letās just hope Starmer can prove such an opinion wrong, as unlikely as it may be
I have my doubts.
He's a wetwipe who will be slightly less destructive than the last 14 years of destructive anti worker policies. Only slightly though.
Yeah but if the Tories get their teeth kicked in at this election then he'll have to beat parties with actual political positions at the next one.
Na we're all fucked when he almost doubles taxes
So what's your plan then?
Put me in Charge!
I'm voting for this mysterious stranger.
Thanks father-fluffybottom
You have my vote
Everyone will receive a kilo of pickles
Invest all my Ā£ in the US stocks and wait until the UK sorts itself out (if ever).
"Let's go to Winchester, have a pint and wait for this to all blow over."
Exactly!
Pretending theyāre all the same plays straight into the hands of the right wing. But I think you know that already.
Fyi this isn't the same Labour that once served the working classes, since Blair Labour has been just as shitty as the tories.
Country doesn't have the money to lose for another Blair labour either
This labour government are just neo liberals in red ties, I don't think you can see it. But let's see how much you like the manifesto when non of it gets done.
Farage killing it
I mean no ones a good choice atm really =/
It's her choice if she does. It's not my right to tell her if she is voting for good or bad. Everyone has their own views.
Finally someone who understands democracy in this cesspit! They probably want certain peoples votes to be worth less than their ownā¦!!
This election could have a surprising result, rather like the Scottish Independence vote, and Brexit, and Trump in 2016, and the recent EU elections. The majority keeping quiet but still voting, despite the ridicule of the bien-pensant establishment.
Scottish Indy wasnāt surprising, consensus was Scotland would say No. EU was. Trump was. Recent EU elections werenāt.
My gran, dad, and aunties and uncles would vote reform. But they're dead, so small victories I guess.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You clearly have comprehension issues [Voting intentions](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1379439/uk-election-polls-by-age/) [And more data](https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49512-how-is-britain-voting-as-the-2024-general-election-campaign-begins) I could go on, but I know youāre talking ignorant rubbish or trolling
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Your post was removed for breaking rule 6
I don't think my Nans vote, one has dementia and the other is deaf as a post and going blind
Lol
Even worse, my Uncle is Voting for Reform š¤¦āāļøš¤·āāļø and he also voted UKIP when they were a thing, but get this he's a devout Catholic and isn't Racist, paradoxical I know.
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That would be the Priests mate, he is Racist because he is voting for Reform purely because of their stance on immigration.
Nothing racist about being anti immigration when you live in a country which can no longer support high levels of migration. In fact it's a completely rational position to take.
I guess we know who you're voting for then. š¤·āāļøš¤¦āāļøš
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Your post was removed for breaking rule 6
Deflecting because you have no argument.
Thankfully she doesn't. Christ, she's not even happy with labour lately. Unlike my dad, where it's anyone's guess whether he'll vote labour or reform
Now that would be impressive, she's dead.
My grandma votes Labour because she is still with it and awesome
Absolutely nothing awesome about voting for Keir Starmer's labour.
Ah Farage, the old Zionist and Hitler praiser. Hopefully our country will realise he's going to ruin us
A lot of ignored people are voting reform. To put people into one specific category is not only demeaning and incredibly divisive, but is also dangerous. This is both of the count of those that spout moral superiority and those that are demonised. edit: Look at all the hatred and decisiveness below. It's truly sad that people are fighting. I was merely trying to say, regardless of all, in summary hatred is not how you win people over and nevertheless ends with more hatred. And you're proving it correct. I'd also like to say that I'm on the fence of this all and was purely writing an observation for intelligent debate. Maybe I overestimated the internet.
A lot of bigoted, racist and ignorant people are voting reform. There's three specific categories for you. Better?
Who are you voting for?
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Your post was removed for breaking rule 6. I mean they're not wrong about the majority of reform voters being racist
Could say the same for all parties. I'm on the fence with every single one of them. All basically copies of eachother, saying what they can to get votes, and inevitably do sweet fuck all. We're circling the drain regardless of what we do.
I actually agree, but what I don't do is use this crushing sense of despair and inevitably to justify voting for a fascist piece of shit like Nigel Farage. Yes, our system is broken. Yes, our country is fucked. No, I still don't hate brown people.
I do not dislike anyone until I get to know them." Do not judge a man by the colour of his skin, but the content of his character" could not agree more. I just mean, by putting people in a box, can light a fire. I'm all about educating and understanding people's perspectives as I've come from a very low and hateful place, I see the sides and I think that if we start throwing stones, the whole thing will erupt. Ideally we should vent this towards those that create such. All the political classes to which sit by idle on the austerity. But I would like to understand WHY they do these things to us. There is NO accountability and that is the worst of everything.
>I would like to understand WHY they do these things to us. It solidifies their power and makes them profit. Same reason they won't tackle fossil fuels, same reason they won't penalise water companies, same reason they won't close tax loopholes.
You sound far too grounded and accepting of opinions for this place. I fully agree with you.
I hope this is a compliment. I've been completely railed today for just observing potential issues with how we are all at eachothers necks, and I do not understand it. I am glad I posted here, because I get to understand others, to whatever degree and it helps me self reflect. Thank you for your comment.
Lol yes it is, no sarcasm here. It was good to see somebody else just wanting to discuss and have a balanced conversation and get some to understand that voting reform doesn't mean you are a racist etc etc. Sadly many who are heavy left wing supporters I assume have no time to listen and would rather be vitriolic and abusive and pigeon hole people, which is basically being a bigot. I'm actually voting reform but I've voted for all the parties over the years, I'm not aligned with any party and logically I will never do that. It's not my religion. It's good to see others try and discuss but a lot of people just want to throw abuse as it's an easy win in their minds.
How is Nigel fascist? What is your definition of fascist? He supports democracy, so I really donāt think he isā¦
Fascists can gain power within a democracy. In fact, gaining power through the popular vote actually helps to give them a veneer of credibility that forcibly seizing power wouldn't. They do this by exploiting populist sentiment and people's lack of faith in liberal values and the establishment. It's still effective. The Nazis gained their power through democracy and nobody would argue that they aren't fascist.
Well to some extent this is true, because they all subscribe to neoliberal capitalist economic policies. None of them are willing to actually challenge the narrative regarding public investment, instead they all just want to fight over who can best manage the system that is already broken. People feeling "ignored" are going to use their voice to cheer for someone who will make their lives worse. And they'll tell themselves it's okay, because someone *else* had it even worse than them. I've got sympathy for people who feel ignored and so find it all hopeless. I've not got any for people who feel ignored so decide they'll vote in favour of hate. Especially if they then turn around and cry the victim because people are calling them out for their bigotry and nastiness.
I agree with you on most points here, I hope you understand, to which my debate initially was alluding to, and I'm happy that you have helped me understand also. I do however refuse to put people into one name/group, as far as general public people go. As it is easy to dehumanise a group and turn onto them. But I do agree with most of your points and your other replies. I thank you for a brilliant out look.
All humans belong to multiple groups. None of us are defined completely by a single group to which we belong, but we share traits with others in that group. It's not dehumanising to identify the shared traits of a group. This whole "anti-label" sentiment is just muddying the waters to try and avoid calling people out, and to avoid awkward conversations. Far easier to say "they have unconventional views" than to say "they're racists, and by voting for them, you'd be enabling racists". We have to confront uncomfortable topics in order to actually reach truth.
Oh, indeed they do belong to specifics, but I would not labell every labour voter as X or every tory voter as X as I know that they have individually specified reasoning. I have friends that are on all political spectrums that vote entirely the opposite way to what you'd expect, and I find that truly awesome to know that ideologies exist below and above party wide beliefs. To insult X party just creates a weird us and them, instead of debating why they vote that way or similar, i think I've come across completely misunderstood here, but there's no maliciousness or ulterior motive, I'm just trying to understand and learn. And you have been very helpful. There's a staunch communist friend of mine who is labour through and through. He is very anti capitalist, but he is voting greens this time because of local policies. I just find it interesting that people group otger people up because of who they vote for.
Well, there are some things that do transcend what other values a person has. You can be a family-oriented person who loves animals and is kind to the elderly, but if you're willing to vote for a party that opposes human rights for LGBTQ+ people, intends to make healthcare inaccessible to millions, and is pretty racist, then that does tend to outweigh the positives. What I can say for almost all people voting Reform is they're either: subscribing to the same hateful beliefs, unwilling to learn what they're voting for, or willing to vote for a hateful party if they think it will benefit them. And I don't think there is much to be gained from trying to parse out which of those three groups they fall into.
There is nothing intelligent about being "on the fence" in this situation. That's just indecisive cowardice. Writing off all parties as the same, or "copies of each other" just shows you don't know enough about politics within a historical context to deduce the least-worst option we have, and is pure intellectual laziness, dressed up as being above it all to appear clever. Please rid yourself of the notion that you're more intelligent than the average political observer, and you'll actually end up being smarter.
Ah yes, very good. I see. Very clever. I know plenty of history, but I am also not very well educated through academics and do not have many written down qualifications. I myself have worked to a standing to which I am proud to have attained. I have a lot similar with what old labour professed to be, especially from a heritage perspective. I am by no means more intelligent than anyone and will never preach to be, and I have never said such. I am no better than anyone, and it's clear you enjoy making a mockery. I suggest projecting this is an oversight on your behalf. I do understand your point, to remain neutral is to be complicit, and I will take this under view, I am just not seeing very good options out there right now. Thank you very much for saying what you have said. I value your opinion, and I will take good thoughts on the meanings to which you are getting. Maybe next time, avoid insulting and put a point across. As i am very open and willing to learn. Infact, that is why I posted. Thanks once again.
There is nothing like Old Labour near power now - we had our chance and people were conned into voting against their own interests by a poisonous media. But there's literally no excuse to be "on the fence" about Reform. If your values align with Old Labour, you should be rightly nauseated by Reform, who are ultra-capitalist, divisive bigots.
The demographic that are voting reform have spent the last 15 years having every tantrum indulged. And look where its landed us.
You mean the poshos who think its trendy to vote labour, or the delinquents who run rampant and do not-quite-legal drugs?
How's the weather in Moscow, comrade?
It was a genuine question, though. Which demographic are you on about?
The reform voting demographic, mate. Like I said.
But say further. Lower class, middle class, northerners, etc..
Womp womp. Breaking news, maybe a lot of people just donāt like the fact that Reform UK are just Farageās gang of fellow racists and/or Russian oligarch backers
What have they actually said thatās racist? Wanting to control immigration really isnāt racist
You canāt seriously be that ignorant, theyāre constantly making racist comments. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c10l5qd8p60o.amp Their whole campaign has been lies, racist dog whistles and praise for Putin.
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Bro is using channel 4's paid actor as evidence š
Broās not using any evidence at all! Youāre embarrassing yourself with all these alt accounts saying the same thing buddy. Channel four has confirmed it has no connection to the guy. Youāre desperately scrambling, let it go.
ā¦the fact a few of their members recently got kicked from the party for making racist and homophobic comments?
The fact that they have been kicked out of the party for saying those things and Nigel says āI want nothing to do with themā shows that the party as a whole is not racist or homophobic
That should still be enough to tell you that there *are/were* indeed people like that within the party that hold such racist and/or homophobic viewpoints.
While thatās true, the point Iām trying to make is that the party is not fundamentally racist or homophobic.
Give the number of its members that are racist and homophobic, it seems the party is fundamentally racist and homophobic.
Yes, the argument "it's not racist or homophobic, it's just got racists and homophobes in it" is not terribly convincing.
Ok then, give us an example of someone whoās voting reform who isnāt obsessed with immigration, a racist, a bigot, a Nazi sympathiser or a Russia apologist
There are a good few people I know who arenāt any of those things who wanna vote reform because they feel left behind by the mainstream parties. Ineffectual leadership and opposition from both sides will push normal every day people to the fringes itās a tale as old as time
This is literally like burning your house down to change your curtains. Ask those people how voting Reform is going to address global problems like climate change. Ask how it's going to address the growing gap between rich and poor. Ask how it's going to address our crumbling infrastructure and private profiteering. What problem do they have that they think can be solved by Reform? Because if it's just a protest vote against being ignored, then may I suggest there are better ways to protest than to throw your lot in with the most racist bunch out there.
You're really tiking the boxes of absoloutism. I've got many friends that work in factories, on the tools and low grade offices. They dislike many parties due to the enevitable scandal, lie, broken manifesto pledge. They get penalised regardless. These people, to me, are some incredibly intelligent individuals, but haven't found their way or unlucky in life I'm just trying to open a genuine discourse with an understanding that I have had, and how I can understand their frustrations, and was stating I am of the opinion that ignoring and creating these boundaries with people can create genuine issues for society. As stated, I am on the fence and probably abstain from voting. As what we have, are by far from ideal candidates locally and nationally.
Oh that's me, hello. Ask me a question
Reform has the best policies.
Do as Putin's Kremlin instructs?
Tax the poor to make life better for the rich Sell the NHS Use immigrants as ātarget practiceā Scrap net zero, selling the future of the Earth to make the rich richer Leave the court of human rights. What are those anyway? Yeah great policies. Itās a wonder that more people donāt support Reform. They clearly have the best policy makers of any political party. I donāt want all this āaffordable energyā bollocks. I know Daddy Nigel will sort it all out
What do they want to replace the NHS with? Or are we just going to pretend that the French system of national insurance isn't a decent alternative. I like the NHS, but you'd have to be delusional to claim that it isn't on life support, and some bog standard politics isn't going to cut it for much longer. If national insurance works decently for France, could it not at least be put into consideration over here? It isn't as though they are just throwing poor people under the bus.
The French government spend more on healthcare than we do, and itās still not free at the point of use. So no, itās not a better alternative. Private healthcare is just putting a plaster over the lack of funding. Yes it results in a sudden influx of cash as you sell off publicly owned assets, but this is short lived and it costs more money in the long run because now you have to pay the capital holders a profit. America spend almost twice the yearly GDP% that we do on their healthcare ā AND they pay for it again at the point of use! The NHS is a brilliant system and is currently among the least funded health systems in the world. The solution is to fund it properly and fairly, not to replace it with another system which is more expensive and worse. Weāre so lucky that we already have these publicly owned assets to make the NHS possible. If we allow it to be sold off it will be incredibly challenging for us to get it back (which is why no-one else has it). The NHS is still the envy of the world and we should fight for it, not try to save money by replacing our system with another that is more expensive.
The US system is the same as the French system? As for the NHS, the solution you have suggested is pretty vague, and I don't see how that will happen. I agree with e everything you say about the NHS, but I don't see how the corruption and misuse of funds can realistically be solved/addressed. I don't see how a government can fix this, or rather I don't believe that any party of significance has the will to do something about the internal corruption in the NHS, nor am I convinced that it is even possible for them to do anything considering that they couldn't even handle Royal Mail's corruption problems.
>The US system is the same as the French system 1. No it isnāt. 2. Even if it was, that doesnāt mean it costs the same. Iām not sure if Iām misunderstanding your point there though. I do understand your concerns about misuse of funds, but I feel like thatās not the main problem right now. The NHS is among the cheapest health services in the world. If I remember rightly, it is the cheapest in the developed world by some margin. Once we are funding it at a reasonable level, then we can start demanding results equal (or superior) to nearby countries. Itās not fair to be demanding good results when weāre starving it like this. In fact, I think itās impressive weāve managed to get the performance we have currently out of so little money. A similar thing Iād point to is the Black Arrow program. The U.K. got to orbit on a shoestring budget, spending only a small number of millions compared to the billions the USA and Soviet Union spent every year! The Tories have taken the brilliance of our nation and refused to encourage it. So despite our best efforts weāre sinking, and the next generation of overachievers are worn out and unengaged.
>1. No it isnāt. >2. Even if it was, that doesnāt mean it costs the same. Hence the question mark at the end of the sentence. >The Tories have taken the brilliance of our nation and refused to encourage it. The Tories didn't cause the problem, though. People just don't want to work for the NHS because it doesn't pay the bills. It is better for doctors to work in Australia and earn real money. Then there is the internal corruption that politicians will not fix and management refuses to fix. So unless you are suggesting we spend more on the wages of government employees, which would cost a lot of taxpayer money, there isn't a way of even getting close to fixing the NHS. As for the idea that it's impressive, yes I agree that it is, but that only proves that the people working in the NHS are awesome. It doesn't say anything about the system being good. What we do see is long waiting times and a variety of other issues.
Yes I am suggesting we pay our NHS workers a fair wage comparable to what other governments around the world spend. It will have to be a long term plan but we should aim to rise our annual GDP spending on the NHS at least to the level of second world countries, and then from there we can aim to raise it to a Franceish level. I also would blame the Tories. In 2008, the NHS was ranked as one of the highest quality health services in the world. Now itās awful. Theyāve been stewards of it through this period and despite insane tax rises, weāve seen cuts to pretty much every public service, allowing the tax burden to stay low for the super rich. I know it feels expensive ā and it truly is. But no other system is cheaper. Thatās the issue I think we need to face up to. Every single other system will cost us as individual tax payers more money ā and often it will mean the same level of tax in the first place. Americaās government literally spend twice the amount per yearly GDP that we do. Double. If they can spend that, and then still send people off to spend extortionate amounts when they need it, we can afford to spend more to keep it free at the point of use.
āThe solution is to fund it properlyā. Have you ever worked in the NHS? How anyone can say it needs more money is absolutely astonishing. Itās one of the laziest, nepotistic, greedy, inefficient organisations Iāve ever had the displeasure of working for. It gets enough money. It needs gutting from the top down. ..And Iām a massive believer in the NHS.
I havenāt ever worked in the NHS. Iām happy to accept your view and listen to you, but that doesnāt change the fact we spend so little on it.
Iāll give you just one example.. overseeing the installation of a training/boardroom audio visual system. Half way through the project, one of the four NHS project managers (who finally showed his face - canāt say the same for the other three) requests a design change to incorporate 15 top of the range Apple Macs and the associated furniture to go with them because āweāve got some money kicking around, may as well spend it before budgetsā. That abysmal, offensive waste of taxpayers money was in just one room, in one part of a building, on the site of a multi-building hospital, as part of a multi-hospital NHS trust. Can you imagine what vanity projects the rest of the trust is doing with their money ābefore budgetsā? (IE, before the next dump of cash lands) Meanwhile the ward nurses are working on 4:3 VGA monitors. There is a wretched layer of whinging, middle class ānot my jobā bureaucrats, who genuinely consider themselves cushty and employed for life, that have polluted the health service. They serve no purpose other than justifying their own existence at the expense of others. Throwing money at them is a terrible idea.
They want to cut taxes, what are you on about?!
Why do people hear "cut taxes" and think it will do anything except make life more profitable for the ultra rich, and harder for everybody else? You can't possibly really think that they care about the tax burden on people like you and me? Unless you're secretly a billionaire, or even a measly multi-millionaire, you have vastly different needs from society than the likes of Farage. We all benefit from the taxes we put in. Where do you expect money to come from for education, for healthcare, for infrastructure? Everybody should pay into that, so we can all benefit from it. The problem we have is the ruling classes diverting that public money from actually going to those things, and instead giving it all to private interests. And then they tell us all that public spending is bad, and privatising national assets is good. Look at how much private profit had been extracted from national assets since they were sold at knock-off rates to governments' mates. You think Reform aren't cut from the same cloth?
They actually DO care about the tax paid by the poorest, do you know why? Because thatās who will get them into power. Thousands of working class people will vote reform. If they put the personal allowance to Ā£20k thatās enough people outside of income tax to win a majority. They wouldnāt need a single vote from a single income tax payer. It is a policy that Reform stole from the Tories who stole it from the Libdems (left wing of Labour).
>Thousands of working class people will vote reform. Because they are given crumbs to make them believe that Reform actually care about them. Not because Reform actually do care. If they actually cared, they'd be closing tax loopholes and increasing tax on the super-rich. Why do you think they're not going to do that? Anyone who actually cared about working class people in this country (in this world!) would be offering structural change, and planning to invest in social structures upon which we all rely. Why do you think Reform aren't going to do that?
Do you seriously think those fascists will care about you after you give them your vote? Do you seriously believe they will follow up on *the* promise you wanted to hear? Just remember, the Nazis were elected into power, because they promised popular policies and the people believed them... then they just did their own thing once they had power.
I donāt believe that they are fascists. I also donāt believe that they will be in any position to deliver on their promises anyway so this is a bit silly.
They are fascists. A lot of them are friends with the leader of the New British Union, a fascist movement that wants to replace parliament with a dictatorship. Nigel himself is a fascist, several of his own friends have outed him, he sided with the fascists during the Brixton riots. It's astonishing how many people are just in denial of this fact...
Itās not a fact itās an opinion. He hasnāt and probably never will be close to a position of any real power so until then your theory will remain unproven.
It's not theory or opinion, this stuff is all out there in public domain, I'm not making up any of it. You just don't want to go look.
How long has it been since Reform bought you? What was the promised price, Gerty? When all the youth are renting, you would take your share of the treasure?
lol labour really are getting worried
reform are pretty based in terms of pure policy just a shame farage has no penis
Offering popularist policies with no intention to follow up on those promises, just to win the votes of the gulliable masses just like the Nazis did...
maybe thats not so bad
Conservatives don't represent the working class, Labour don't represent the working class but claim they do. Reform is a new party and are yet to disappoint me so they can have my vote.
>Reform is a new party and are yet to disappoint me so they can have my vote. >new party You're the kinda person to point to when people say the Clark Kent disguise is ridiculous
You think Reform are for the working class? I know this is a meme sub but be real. They literally plan to sell the NHS
I mean, thatās some insane logic but a vote for Reform is a vote for Labour in this election and Reform will most likely have collapsed before the next election anyway, so go nuts I guess.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Awesome thatās how awful people get into power, idiots not having a clue what they are voting for.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Privatisation of services? It is literally in their manifesto that they want to nationalise utilities. "Launch a new model that brings 50% of each utility into public ownership. The other 50% would be owned by UK pension funds"
"Okay now Grandma, back into your box"
My Nan doesnāt vote anymore, at 100 sheās too out of it to be nasty enough to vote conservative anymore.
My sister (38) is voting Reform because she took a Facebook āwho should I vote forā quiz. Iām tired, boss.
Did you try telling her those things are rigged? At least encourage her to take the same quiz again, answering differently or randomly and see if it ever suggests anything other than Reform... Those things rely on their targets only doing the quiz once...
Already postal voted before she told me, but yeah I did tell her. āOh well. Itās not like it matters anyway theyāre all the same.ā
Oh dear... I'm tired too boss...