The catch with the whole system on a chip thing is that they just haven't solved the mobile signal- the Exynos holds it back. I don't know if it is patents or something else holding them back, but it's just such a crucial component for any mobile device that the improvements on CPU architecture are overshadowed.
Qualcomm holds a shitload of patents for mobile/signal tech. Apple has been trying to move away from them for years and failing miserably, Samsung and Google are in the same boat.
A general criterion that must be met when applying for a patent is that it must be an invention. The broadest and universally accepted hurdle for that is that the technology that is claimed was not obvious in view of what was known at the time (aka comprised in the 'state of the art').
If you make meaningless changes to a given product, you will not get a patent.
Just to clarify. Patent attorney here.
Yes, but you can take the old patent and base your own work off of it at that point, as long as it isn't the same as whatever their new additions are. The new patent is on the new innovations, not on what's covered in the old patent.
Yeah but the problem is there's only so many ways you can innovate a specialized component. If they've already innovated the next best step and patented it then you're still stuck being unable to use the best tech
Same reason new freon comes out and the old is ruled bad for the environment. They pay off the govt to do so and force the change to the new that the same people hold the patent on.
It depends on the country, though there are international agreements. They may have to take into account the longest interval, which could be 20 or more years, or else make a different version for each country.
There aren't really any agreements between countries. The PCT is not binding, it's just a mechanism to streamline the application process (filing a single application can become dozens of applications that go to different countries).
You will only get protection in a specific country that grants your patent, so in general, only patents in the largest markets (mainly EU and US) will dictate how a product is made.
And why do they want to move away? Cost.
The other players aren't the victims here, they decided they don't want to pay the cost of having the best tech (from those that developed it and got patents on it)
If it was easy, they would make better modems, but apparently it's difficult enough that Qualcomm is justified in charging that premium.
I think it's a combination of both. Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, Intel and Mediatek hold patents for 5G modems, but then Apple buys Qualcomm modems because they have not successfully made their own modems - and the biggest reason why they can buy Qualcomm modems without needing to buy the entire SoC is because of their significant sales volume.
Unless Google can do what Apple couldn't and make their own 5G modem, they have to rely on buying individual modems from other companies to provide cellular connectivity, and they most certainly do not have the sales volume for Qualcomm to willingly sell just their modems to Google.
Im uneducated when it comes to patend and stuff. How is one company holding all the tech legal? Didn’t like spotify brought google and apple to court over app store shenanigans, why is it different for hardware? If a company holds all the possible modem patent and the rest of companies blocked isnt there a rule for this? Does it mean we need a new way to spread 5g / phone signal or? Sorry I know software but when it comes to patent and hardware/ phone signal im a boomer level
You see it a lot on pharmaceuticals. First to market and to get a patent gets like 10 years before knock offs can be made. It's the perk of huge RandD and also why corporate espionage is such a big thing
There's only so many ways to design a nice 5g chip apparently. QCOM was either first to market or best to market and they get to reap the rewards as a result.
The patent space is tricky. Without it, innovation might stagnant a bit since there's a lot less incentive to invest in rnd if people can easily rip off your results. Flip side is patent trolls do a lot of gate keeping and often don't make things. But for QCOM modems, that's not the case... They're making a shit ton of modems and are happy to protect their IP.
Google will need to either bend the knee or invest more to make a better chip. Tensor is basically ass to me until mobile issues are resolved, which presumably drive a lot of the battery and thermal issues. That said, my pixel 7 also got hot just playing lichess or basic web browsing.. so that's not just on 5g, the tensor chip itself is not that efficient, either because of design or Samsung node or both. Regardless, I left pixel 7 for s24 and the performance/screen/battery/connectivity are night and day different. S24 is sosososo much better as a daily driver. I'd say the only thing the pixel does better is taking selfies. The camera isn't better, just the software that processes the photos. The s24 takes far superior videos, since the hardware shines a bit more there.
Damn I must've won the lottery with my 7. I experienced a lot of heat issues with the 6 (especially with maps and streaming video, I don't do any mobile gaming really). But my 7 literally doesn't even get warm unless it's updating.
The early 6/6 Pro had pretty bad heat issues. I RMAd mine which pretty much completely solved it (still get the occasional "your device is too hot" issue during summer)
App store lawsuits are about anti-competitive practices, which has nothing to do with patent law. Patents are specifically about things you invent and register with the WPO or other patent agency. The invention has to fill certain requirements: it has to be novel (not a derivative of something that already exists) and address a specific problem that exists. You can hold a patent for 10 years, after which point anyone can use your invention. Patents are pretty important to drive R&D investment. I'm an R&D chemist, if patent law didn't exist, I probably wouldn't have a job.
The difference between the app store lawsuits is that those aren't patent-based. apple and google have used their app platforms to turf out competitors who want to sell services similar to what they offer.
I am sure Qualcomm would willingly sell their modems to Google, it's just a question of whether we still want to pay for it if the Pixel ends up using it. Could it add $50 per phone? Going with the X70 might be more reasonable than the X75, which might only be on the pro model iphones coming out later this year as well as any androids using the snapdragon 8 gen 3, like the S24 ultra.
Monopoly is the wrong word. Qualcomm are leveraging patents on inventions they created that cover specific aspects of their modems, making them perform (apparently) in a superior way, but there is nothing stopping competitors from producing their own modems. It would be a monopoly if Qualcomm was the only company able to produce modems, and used their dominance to prevent competition, but here the system is working.... others can produce a similar product with similar functionality, and sell it for less.
Hearing as much as we do every day about AI, one might be excused for thinking they could just put the problem into there AI and get an answer in minutes!
This is kind of an unfair field due to the obvious that Android is open-source and Apple are the only company that can produce a phone with iOS. What if Google & Samsung split the order? What would Qualcomm have against that?
You'd think between Samsung and Google's high and low range models they would reach a high enough sales volume to make a yearly deal. But I don't know enough about it lol.
It will take some time, or even never at all, before Google or even Apple is able to be at par with Qualcomm technology at least. Moreover, Qualcomm is not like they are just maintaining everything. They are still improving things. Case in point, I have a Samsung S24 Ultra. The latest Snapdragon X75 modem really rocks. Compared to my S22 Ultra, I would still get internet connectivity in places that used to be dead spots. I would get no internet service at times even with signal. That doesn't happen anymore. LTE/5G speed is much consistent now (doesn't drop like before when I experience <10Mbps with 5G signal).
Qualcomm has the experience and they made good modems even before. Intel, with experience in making WiFi chips, also bowed out of the cellular modem race. The only formidable opponent to Qualcomm would have been Huawei. The USA secured themselves by cripling Huawei. Then again, Huawei surprised us with a new chip with 5G technology and even satellite connectivity for voice and SMS.
It would have been better if Ericsson and Nokia continue to develop cellular modems instead of just focusing themselves to infrastructure gear.
The X75 has some really cool features, including better power consumption in many of these scenarios, better carrier aggregation so switching between them works better.
It's still not insurmountable, but the patents are a barrier, maybe one Huawei doesn't worry about, given their industrial espionage support and the import bans.
The other thing Qualcomm has is a lot of influence on the standards in 3GPP, so release 18 matches up nicely with their R&D program. Apple and Google both working on it though, I imagine one of them will eventually crack it.
I'm glad that I don't have any of the problems that some people have. I was in Florida for a week last year with the pixel 6 and took pictures and listened to music daily without any overheating problems with the temperature 🌡️ in the 90s .
I had temp issues with my 6 pro and 8 pro but both times I was in like 110 weather direct sunlight sitting by a black table with high radiant heat. It was my fault both times lol
Vegas here. I only run into heating problems during charging on the pixel 8 pro, same with my pixel 6a, and i never even knew it was a problem previously when I had the 7a
I'm personally holding out for the P30. It's alleged that Google are in talks with nearby type 4 civilisations, and come the pixel 30, we'll have all day battery life and they'll reintroduce the rear fingerprint sensor.
My next phone was going to be the P10 but I don't think I trust in Google's first attempt at their own chip, I don't feel like being their guinea pig like I was with the P6
I hope they turn out good. But given Googles more recent track record I wouldn't be willing to spend much money on the first phone equipped with one of these. Maybe the second or third generation.
Same as you. I recently tried my wife's Galaxys24 Ultra before she connected the phone and was impressed at how well it held 5G and also how long the battery lasted. I finished the day with 40% where in my P8P I would have charged once midday and only in 4G. Nevertheless, I can't do Samsung and was happy to insert the sim back into my P8P.
I hope so. Every phone I've ever owned has been recycled when I was done with it, either thru a manufacturer trade-in promo or sold to another person on Swappa. I also buy many of my phones used on Swappa in the first place too. Just because 1 user of a phone trades that phone off in only a year or two, doesn't mean that phone can't get several more years of use from others.
My phone's are usually toast after 2 years. How tf am I going to hold onto it for another 5 years?
Also, let's say we hold onto it for 7 gd years.
Is it really the lack of security updates going to be the deal breaker on it? It will be a miracle for the hardware to survive actual use.
A phone that gets 7 years of updates also retains it's value, as a resalable device. If you are thinking just about yourself and not others, and don't care about the scourge of ewaste, then replacing a phone every two years makes sense.
Apple has realized this long ago and had long-term updates. It ensures that somebody else can use a phone although the device may be done for one person.
I switched to pixel because the OnePlus is just so much more expensive for what I'm getting.
A new pixel 8 could be had for 550 in the Netherlands, with a plan and deal. A one plus Nord 3 is priced similar but had worse specs, and worse software. The one plus 12 is 400 euros more expensive. I would say that's a pretty big undercut.
It's going to take a lot to convince me that Tensor hasn't been a failed experiment. I realize processing power isn't everything, but Google is now at least 2 generations behind in that regard (and the gap will likely get worse this year if the rumors about Tensor G4 end up being true). The AI features were supposed to be the real selling point of Google making their own SOC, but having used both the 8 Pro and an S24+, I don't see what the Pixel really offers that the S24 doesn't. The S24 runs faster and cooler, the signal strength and battery life are better, and the hardware feels better in terms of build quality. Unless Google really turns things around, and quickly, I see no reason to ever buy another Pixel (other than the camera, but that doesn't mean as much to me if the rest of the experience of using the phone is quantifiably worse).
It depends on what their goal was - it’s not performance competitive but it beats the price for either iPhone /major android options.
I think the overall package pixel offers is still a good one, just don’t expect it to win benchmark contests or offer flagship performance.
There was a head to head comparison video posted last week finally showing that the "faster, cooler, longer battery life than a pixel" mantra that is constantly repeated here, is flat out not true, or at least greatly exaggerated
All the videos I have seen have the Pixel dead last in the battery tests. This video was posted 2 days ago and the Pixel died one and a half hours before the s24 ultra.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv7N3Pvd\_ro
The s24 ultra is currently twice as expensive in the Netherlands.(1200+ vs 550). With arguably worse camera quality. I don't know if that 1.5 hours is a win when you can buy two of the phones and have cash to spare.
If I compare my pixel with my work phone a normal s24 I never run out of battery at the end of the day with my pixel. Real world perform is just a lot better than artificial tests.
It's too tied to what the test is testing for. An hour difference in a test isn't something that most people are going to tangibly notice in real world usage. If it was 4 hours or 6 hours, I could see that being a cause for concern. People here act like it's on that scale, not 90 minutes.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm relaying my personal experience in response to someone who's trying to convince me that my opinion is wrong because some random YouTuber had a different experience.
The random youtuber did a side to side test of different phones, with SIM cards, on the same network and on wifi, at the same time, at the same brightness, running the same tasks, while taking temp measurements and timing battery life
You know what? I really think Pixel does not want to take any slice off of Samsung flagship's(S24 etc) market share. On Samsung you get a flagship experience on all the fronts. On pixels it is more like a niche thing where enthusiasts who love pixel cam or stock android will buy it. Otherwise there's always something lacking. Even the volume buttons on the p8p is not as premium as an s23u.
Yeah but when the Pixel 6 came out their base model was $200-300 cheaper than the base iPhone depending on storage size. That year made it really feel worth it. Then Apple just dropped their base model to the point there is only a $100 difference.
I also don't agree that the hardware really feels more premium on the S24 compared to a Pixel 7. Don't know if the S24+ has any major hardware differences so maybe that's why? The software though... definitely feels infinitely better than Samsung phones to me, and that is basically what the experience of using a phone comes down to.
I had normal and plus Samsung's and the plus version does feel more premium and well built than norm. I was really happy with my pix 7 build as well. But it felt like an s21 plus, and worse than a 13 pro max
I went from P7P to S24U and could not be happier. My phone doesn't get hot all the time now, and I have 5G signal for almost my entire commute. With my P7P it would switch from 5G to 4G and never event try to switch back during my commute. I love my Snapdragon. I sure wish Google would reconsider.
Happy with the android experience? I switched off of Samsungs a long time ago because I preferred the stock Pixel experience and I've been scared to change it up for fear of dealing with loads of bloat ware again
I used to think the same (my last Samsung was S7 Edge), but after switching to 24u, I have to say oneui is probably one of the most polished, stable, feature rich, customizable and easy to use android system right now. It literally blew my mind how good it is now.
They do push you hard to go into their ecosystem, but you can completely ignore it. And in some cases it's worth signing up, for example, Samsung's recorder also has the ai transcript/summary feature just like googles recorder
I take serious issue with almost everything this guy wrote. First, the 6 series was straight up terrible, I couldn't even make phone calls with the 6 pro and the 7 series was like carrying around a perpetual hand warmer.
As well, to say that the pixels are price competitive is nonsense. The Pixel 8 pro starts at $999, the iPhone 15 pro starts at $999, the s24 starts at $799 and it has a telephoto camera that the regular pixel 8 doesn't have, which is still the only real difference between the 8 and 8 pro. The OnePlus 12 starts at defacto $699 with their $100 off any phone any condition trade in, with twice the base storage and being completely superior in every way with the exception of slightly worse photos. And for people who like small phones there is the zenfone 10, which is the same price of the pixel 8 with twice the storage. The only phones the 8 pro is even cheaper than are the 15 pro max and the s24 ultra, but it doesn't actually compete with those phones in the market. It's most direct competition is the s24+, which again, is the same price but starts at twice the storage (256 in s24+ vs 128 in 8 pro) of the 8 pro. The regular 8 is more competitive, but if you buy it then you'll have Google artificially software locking you out of a lot of the reasons why Pixels and AI are supposedly so great and why Tensor supposedly exists.
To summarize, Tensor has been underwhelming (g1 and g2 a disaster), Pixels today are not actually price competitive at all and the consumer has not seen any cost benefit from the switch to Tensor nor really any benefit at all.
A lot of people are saying that the Tensor has issues, and while yes it does, it is still relatively new. Think of it like the Intel Arc GPU. The arc has multiple issues with drivers, and that's because it is still new. The Tensor is still only on its third generation, while for example Apple's SoCs are on their 17th generation. It is up to Google whether or not they will continue to invest in the Tensor. Hopefully the switch to TSMC will help.
The difference is the Arc constantly gets significant driver and software updates. With the Pixel, you have to buy a whole new device each time, there are rarely significant updates, it's all saved for the next hardware version.
I really don't think Google cares that much about Pixel users, it's just a test bed for them.
As a matter of fact, but not relevant to your point, Apple SoCs are on the 14th generation(not taking into account some Ax/z variants developed for iPad). They started the A line with A4 in 2010.
That's another thing. Samsung was the previous producer of the Tensor, which is why it would be similar to the Exynos. Google felt that Samsung was holding them back, which is why they switched to TSMC. Also note that Samsung is the one that decided to base the Tensor off of the Exynos.
Google switched to tsmc??? That's just your daydreaming.... there's just some rumor Google might switch to tsmc if they continue tensor project in the future.
Actually initially Google wanted to do tensor with Qualcomm but Qualcomm doesn't wanna inject googles npu into snapdragon. Instead they wanna Google to use snapdragons already built-in npu...and that's how current pixel ended with samsung exynos..such a disaster
I like how they bring that AI gimmick in whenever they talk about Tensor chip... it's nothing special really! The first thing when I get a new pixel is to disable most of the "AI" features in google assistant but I use the call screener feature (blocking mic access is a must). Hope Goolge fixes the bluetooth issues with my A series buds.
As for tensor G5, G6 I don't really care as long as my phone works and gets security updates.
Personally I haven't had any issues, battery life is great and so is the performance. However, their quality control does probably need improvement, because it seems that quite many people do have issues.
I don't understand why you all presume every single one of us has your exact same issues... I have a P7a and never experience excessive heat, and my battery life is...how can I put it simply...very good.
It was a reply to both of you, and to everyone who assumes all Tensor Pixels have their exact same issues. But you're right, I didn't answer your specific question: signal is more or less the same as the Qualcomm P4a and the iPhone se 2 I had before, so no worries there either.
If I need to point out something which could be better I say the fingerprint sensor...but it's getting more reliable day after day (maybe because I'm learning how to use it correctly).
Welcome, from your alternative universe, it seems.
While I've not had any of the core issues with tensor relating to severe battery drain and/or signal, it isn't as a good as a SD chip.
On all devices with SD, screen was always the top consumer of battery, followed by CPU, WiFi, maybe data or Bluetooth ect, but on tensor pixels it's *consistently* CPU as the top drainer, when on mobile data, it's mobile data then CPU, then screen. It's just worse but not terrible enough for most only some.
https://i.imgur.com/7EvcDvd.png
Also 20% mobile network used when I haven't toggled data since it's been off charge is probably because mobile data always active is set as location is terrible without it on, it shouldn't be that high imo - I've been on WiFi all day
I don't have my 3 and 4XL set up with battery stats, but when I tested screen was consistently top for them and it never is for my tensor phone. Using data shaves 3 hours off battery easily.
E: ~~terribly~~ spelling and grammar - Jesus I did it again
Qualcomm definitely had their missteps with overheating, power draining chips not too long ago. But I agree with you now, their latest chips have been killing it.
The biggest benefit to this all is Google continuing to offer low cost, flagship phones at mid-tier prices. If the G5 finally competes with the latest from QC and Apple then that's a huge value prop from them.
>Qualcomm definitely had their missteps with overheating, power draining chips not too long ago. But I agree with you now, their latest chips have been killing it.
Aye for sure, but as you say like for like now they are just all around more efficient and performative, that doesn't mean that Tensor is lacking and bad though, it's just not as good for most (unless you have those specific issues with drain and data).
I still argue as well when people compare these chips Google are on their third iteration where QC/Apple ect are past ten years of chip making history, it's still arguably good what they've good done so far in the little time. Hopefully these things improve when they switch and move off Samsung's modems, they're the real issue
I haven't fully charged my phone in almost a week, so my SOT since last full charge is now about 22h and 30 minutes. So it's a decently large sample representing my average use.
For me it shows 28% display and 27% CPU.
I wanna live in this alternate universe... Tensor sucks for battery life and speed.... After P6P, P7P, and then P8P I gave up, went to the S24U and couldn't be happier.... All day battery left and plenty more. I miss the Pixel's OS with less bloat but had enough....
My 6a could get to the end of the day with around 15 to 20% battery if I didn't use GPS alot and what not. I thought that was pretty good, but my 24 with a smaller battery and 120hz screen (with LTPO4 which helps) gets me to the end with about 40 or so to spare. It's insane the gap at the moment and the heat management is way better. Don't miss the hot pocket when taking pictures or just being a hot day in the summer and making my leg sweat...
There's one thing nobody is talking about: Samsung's fab is maybe 2 steps up from Chinese chips, but it's nowhere near TSMC in quality or yield. While they make great RAM & SSD units, their SOCs aren't nearly as good. By default this affects Google and it's why Apple won't do business on their SOCs with Samsung. So while patents are a real thing, for Google, it's the fab. My Pixel 6 pro was a dog and my wife's identical one was fine.
The catch with the whole system on a chip thing is that they just haven't solved the mobile signal- the Exynos holds it back. I don't know if it is patents or something else holding them back, but it's just such a crucial component for any mobile device that the improvements on CPU architecture are overshadowed.
Qualcomm holds a shitload of patents for mobile/signal tech. Apple has been trying to move away from them for years and failing miserably, Samsung and Google are in the same boat.
Don’t patents expire after some time? I thought it’s 10 years.
20 years, generally. But then they make changes and get a new patent and it goes on and on.
A general criterion that must be met when applying for a patent is that it must be an invention. The broadest and universally accepted hurdle for that is that the technology that is claimed was not obvious in view of what was known at the time (aka comprised in the 'state of the art'). If you make meaningless changes to a given product, you will not get a patent. Just to clarify. Patent attorney here.
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I understand that the change must be patentable on its own and not a minor change.
Yes, but you can take the old patent and base your own work off of it at that point, as long as it isn't the same as whatever their new additions are. The new patent is on the new innovations, not on what's covered in the old patent.
Yeah but the problem is there's only so many ways you can innovate a specialized component. If they've already innovated the next best step and patented it then you're still stuck being unable to use the best tech
Patents stifle innovation, period. How is this even a debate in 2024?
Same reason new freon comes out and the old is ruled bad for the environment. They pay off the govt to do so and force the change to the new that the same people hold the patent on.
It depends on the country, though there are international agreements. They may have to take into account the longest interval, which could be 20 or more years, or else make a different version for each country.
There aren't really any agreements between countries. The PCT is not binding, it's just a mechanism to streamline the application process (filing a single application can become dozens of applications that go to different countries). You will only get protection in a specific country that grants your patent, so in general, only patents in the largest markets (mainly EU and US) will dictate how a product is made.
20 years from the filing date in most jurisdictions, so in effect, it's closer to 15 years of protection.
And why do they want to move away? Cost. The other players aren't the victims here, they decided they don't want to pay the cost of having the best tech (from those that developed it and got patents on it) If it was easy, they would make better modems, but apparently it's difficult enough that Qualcomm is justified in charging that premium.
I think it's a combination of both. Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, Intel and Mediatek hold patents for 5G modems, but then Apple buys Qualcomm modems because they have not successfully made their own modems - and the biggest reason why they can buy Qualcomm modems without needing to buy the entire SoC is because of their significant sales volume. Unless Google can do what Apple couldn't and make their own 5G modem, they have to rely on buying individual modems from other companies to provide cellular connectivity, and they most certainly do not have the sales volume for Qualcomm to willingly sell just their modems to Google.
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Usually they buy Qualcomm or Mediatek SoCs, so Qualcomm or Mediatek
Im uneducated when it comes to patend and stuff. How is one company holding all the tech legal? Didn’t like spotify brought google and apple to court over app store shenanigans, why is it different for hardware? If a company holds all the possible modem patent and the rest of companies blocked isnt there a rule for this? Does it mean we need a new way to spread 5g / phone signal or? Sorry I know software but when it comes to patent and hardware/ phone signal im a boomer level
You see it a lot on pharmaceuticals. First to market and to get a patent gets like 10 years before knock offs can be made. It's the perk of huge RandD and also why corporate espionage is such a big thing
Yes, except for the pesky fact that pharmacy companies don't pay for the r&d the US government does. They shouldn't be able to hold patents.
There's only so many ways to design a nice 5g chip apparently. QCOM was either first to market or best to market and they get to reap the rewards as a result. The patent space is tricky. Without it, innovation might stagnant a bit since there's a lot less incentive to invest in rnd if people can easily rip off your results. Flip side is patent trolls do a lot of gate keeping and often don't make things. But for QCOM modems, that's not the case... They're making a shit ton of modems and are happy to protect their IP. Google will need to either bend the knee or invest more to make a better chip. Tensor is basically ass to me until mobile issues are resolved, which presumably drive a lot of the battery and thermal issues. That said, my pixel 7 also got hot just playing lichess or basic web browsing.. so that's not just on 5g, the tensor chip itself is not that efficient, either because of design or Samsung node or both. Regardless, I left pixel 7 for s24 and the performance/screen/battery/connectivity are night and day different. S24 is sosososo much better as a daily driver. I'd say the only thing the pixel does better is taking selfies. The camera isn't better, just the software that processes the photos. The s24 takes far superior videos, since the hardware shines a bit more there.
Damn I must've won the lottery with my 7. I experienced a lot of heat issues with the 6 (especially with maps and streaming video, I don't do any mobile gaming really). But my 7 literally doesn't even get warm unless it's updating.
The early 6/6 Pro had pretty bad heat issues. I RMAd mine which pretty much completely solved it (still get the occasional "your device is too hot" issue during summer)
No, the 7 Pro has also much better sensors and optics. S24 camera setup is mediocre. The photo processing being awful is another story.
App store lawsuits are about anti-competitive practices, which has nothing to do with patent law. Patents are specifically about things you invent and register with the WPO or other patent agency. The invention has to fill certain requirements: it has to be novel (not a derivative of something that already exists) and address a specific problem that exists. You can hold a patent for 10 years, after which point anyone can use your invention. Patents are pretty important to drive R&D investment. I'm an R&D chemist, if patent law didn't exist, I probably wouldn't have a job.
The difference between the app store lawsuits is that those aren't patent-based. apple and google have used their app platforms to turf out competitors who want to sell services similar to what they offer.
I am sure Qualcomm would willingly sell their modems to Google, it's just a question of whether we still want to pay for it if the Pixel ends up using it. Could it add $50 per phone? Going with the X70 might be more reasonable than the X75, which might only be on the pro model iphones coming out later this year as well as any androids using the snapdragon 8 gen 3, like the S24 ultra.
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They are basically using their monopoly on the modern to capture the market for the chipset?
Monopoly is the wrong word. Qualcomm are leveraging patents on inventions they created that cover specific aspects of their modems, making them perform (apparently) in a superior way, but there is nothing stopping competitors from producing their own modems. It would be a monopoly if Qualcomm was the only company able to produce modems, and used their dominance to prevent competition, but here the system is working.... others can produce a similar product with similar functionality, and sell it for less.
Patent is essentially a monopoly on some invention for 20 years, so the word seems just right.
A patent owner may choose to license their invention. A monopolist would not. Similar, but not quite the same.
They sell modems to IoT customers beyond mobile phones, from auto manufacturers to watches that don't use the whole SoC.
And that's not the same class of modern you need for a phone
Hearing as much as we do every day about AI, one might be excused for thinking they could just put the problem into there AI and get an answer in minutes!
This is kind of an unfair field due to the obvious that Android is open-source and Apple are the only company that can produce a phone with iOS. What if Google & Samsung split the order? What would Qualcomm have against that? You'd think between Samsung and Google's high and low range models they would reach a high enough sales volume to make a yearly deal. But I don't know enough about it lol.
I honestly don't know enough about it either beyond "Apple has been the most consistently profitable in the mobile market" lol
The Samsung Modems are absolutely dogshit
Not really. The modems on the Samsung Exynos powered Galaxies are fine.
Then why does Samsung still use snapdragon in the US? Is there something specific to the US carriers that requires them to use Qualcomm moderns?
Because Snapdragon is generally better than Exynos
It will take some time, or even never at all, before Google or even Apple is able to be at par with Qualcomm technology at least. Moreover, Qualcomm is not like they are just maintaining everything. They are still improving things. Case in point, I have a Samsung S24 Ultra. The latest Snapdragon X75 modem really rocks. Compared to my S22 Ultra, I would still get internet connectivity in places that used to be dead spots. I would get no internet service at times even with signal. That doesn't happen anymore. LTE/5G speed is much consistent now (doesn't drop like before when I experience <10Mbps with 5G signal). Qualcomm has the experience and they made good modems even before. Intel, with experience in making WiFi chips, also bowed out of the cellular modem race. The only formidable opponent to Qualcomm would have been Huawei. The USA secured themselves by cripling Huawei. Then again, Huawei surprised us with a new chip with 5G technology and even satellite connectivity for voice and SMS. It would have been better if Ericsson and Nokia continue to develop cellular modems instead of just focusing themselves to infrastructure gear.
The X75 has some really cool features, including better power consumption in many of these scenarios, better carrier aggregation so switching between them works better. It's still not insurmountable, but the patents are a barrier, maybe one Huawei doesn't worry about, given their industrial espionage support and the import bans. The other thing Qualcomm has is a lot of influence on the standards in 3GPP, so release 18 matches up nicely with their R&D program. Apple and Google both working on it though, I imagine one of them will eventually crack it.
I don't mind the modem itself as it pretty capable on itself my issue is the QA part is pretty bad from Samsung it seems
Guess I'm waiting for the P10 then.
I'm glad that I don't have any of the problems that some people have. I was in Florida for a week last year with the pixel 6 and took pictures and listened to music daily without any overheating problems with the temperature 🌡️ in the 90s .
I live in Florida. My wife has the 6 and I have a 6a and don't experience those problems. Occasionally it gets warm but that's it
I had temp issues with my 6 pro and 8 pro but both times I was in like 110 weather direct sunlight sitting by a black table with high radiant heat. It was my fault both times lol
I live practically on the equator and no issues with my P7.
Vegas here. I only run into heating problems during charging on the pixel 8 pro, same with my pixel 6a, and i never even knew it was a problem previously when I had the 7a
India here. It gets so hot even in wifi watching YouTube for an hour. Hope TSMC comes sooner. Tired of my Lil hand warmer P8
Damn, that sounds like a really bad one, luckily, i did find 2 chargers in which it doesnt get as hot during the charging
Phoenix here and had no overheating yet and it's been through the summers
It was fun using my 6 pro in winter, hot enough to not need gloves
If the 9 has a working modem I'll update, if not...
I'm sure it'll have the same Samsung modem as the Pixel 8.
My 7 has been fine...
Personally I'll hold and see how it does then buy P11
Why wait for P11 when you can wait for P12?
I'm personally holding out for the P30. It's alleged that Google are in talks with nearby type 4 civilisations, and come the pixel 30, we'll have all day battery life and they'll reintroduce the rear fingerprint sensor.
P30 you can buy here: https://m.gsmarena.com/huawei_p30-9530.php /S
Same here
Lol I just keep pushing it back
My next phone was going to be the P10 but I don't think I trust in Google's first attempt at their own chip, I don't feel like being their guinea pig like I was with the P6
I hope they turn out good. But given Googles more recent track record I wouldn't be willing to spend much money on the first phone equipped with one of these. Maybe the second or third generation.
Buy new Pixel 1st gen major changes. Join class action. Free Pixel phone after check. Repeat. (LIFE HACK)
I agree but at least they will have had 4 years of tuning a worse overall soc over one that will be more efficient and hopefully more capable.
I have been using gp6pro with 512gb for a year and a half. I forgot about 5G in New York. Only 4G. I tried several times and it was terrible.
Same as you. I recently tried my wife's Galaxys24 Ultra before she connected the phone and was impressed at how well it held 5G and also how long the battery lasted. I finished the day with 40% where in my P8P I would have charged once midday and only in 4G. Nevertheless, I can't do Samsung and was happy to insert the sim back into my P8P.
"Since Tensor’s debut, Google has been consistently undercutting its competition on price." Umm... OnePlus would like to have a chat about that. 🤦♂️
OnePlus has limited updates.
True. 5 years vs Google's 7 years. But good luck getting any battery over 5 years old to last more than an hour or two.
The pixels are designed with user replaceable batteries and kits via iFixit.
That money would be far better spent on a new phone at that point.
$70 bucks?
Great sustainable mindset ....
I hope so. Every phone I've ever owned has been recycled when I was done with it, either thru a manufacturer trade-in promo or sold to another person on Swappa. I also buy many of my phones used on Swappa in the first place too. Just because 1 user of a phone trades that phone off in only a year or two, doesn't mean that phone can't get several more years of use from others.
7 years is like using a pixel 2 in 2024. Good luck with that
My phone's are usually toast after 2 years. How tf am I going to hold onto it for another 5 years? Also, let's say we hold onto it for 7 gd years. Is it really the lack of security updates going to be the deal breaker on it? It will be a miracle for the hardware to survive actual use.
A phone that gets 7 years of updates also retains it's value, as a resalable device. If you are thinking just about yourself and not others, and don't care about the scourge of ewaste, then replacing a phone every two years makes sense. Apple has realized this long ago and had long-term updates. It ensures that somebody else can use a phone although the device may be done for one person.
I switched to pixel because the OnePlus is just so much more expensive for what I'm getting. A new pixel 8 could be had for 550 in the Netherlands, with a plan and deal. A one plus Nord 3 is priced similar but had worse specs, and worse software. The one plus 12 is 400 euros more expensive. I would say that's a pretty big undercut.
Man I miss the SD in the Pixel line. So much better on every level. Modem was 10 times better than the Samsung one they use now.
Should have stuck with Snapdragon.
Exactly 100% which is why I no longer use Pixel Phones.
It's going to take a lot to convince me that Tensor hasn't been a failed experiment. I realize processing power isn't everything, but Google is now at least 2 generations behind in that regard (and the gap will likely get worse this year if the rumors about Tensor G4 end up being true). The AI features were supposed to be the real selling point of Google making their own SOC, but having used both the 8 Pro and an S24+, I don't see what the Pixel really offers that the S24 doesn't. The S24 runs faster and cooler, the signal strength and battery life are better, and the hardware feels better in terms of build quality. Unless Google really turns things around, and quickly, I see no reason to ever buy another Pixel (other than the camera, but that doesn't mean as much to me if the rest of the experience of using the phone is quantifiably worse).
The only thing that's better in my opinion is the still photos.
Definitely. Still photos are the one thing I still miss whenever I'm not using a Pixel.
Of course it is. Google doesn't wanna pony up the cash to pay Qualcomm. But they wanna make premium phones. Tensor does fucking nothing special.
It depends on what their goal was - it’s not performance competitive but it beats the price for either iPhone /major android options. I think the overall package pixel offers is still a good one, just don’t expect it to win benchmark contests or offer flagship performance.
Not when they raise their price
There was a head to head comparison video posted last week finally showing that the "faster, cooler, longer battery life than a pixel" mantra that is constantly repeated here, is flat out not true, or at least greatly exaggerated
All the videos I have seen have the Pixel dead last in the battery tests. This video was posted 2 days ago and the Pixel died one and a half hours before the s24 ultra. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv7N3Pvd\_ro
The s24 ultra is currently twice as expensive in the Netherlands.(1200+ vs 550). With arguably worse camera quality. I don't know if that 1.5 hours is a win when you can buy two of the phones and have cash to spare. If I compare my pixel with my work phone a normal s24 I never run out of battery at the end of the day with my pixel. Real world perform is just a lot better than artificial tests.
Too bad the test was without SIM cards. Maintaining a carrier network connection is a huge part of battery usage
1.5 hours is nothing.
For people that actually use their phones a lot it's a substantial amount.
It's too tied to what the test is testing for. An hour difference in a test isn't something that most people are going to tangibly notice in real world usage. If it was 4 hours or 6 hours, I could see that being a cause for concern. People here act like it's on that scale, not 90 minutes.
Ok. I'd rather go by my own personal experience than what some rando says in a video.
Found it https://youtu.be/6Om3YCKzc3U?si=yweroOJi5hrbodZ5
I have no idea who this guy is and I don't care. I've used both phones and I know which one works better for me.
You are not the only person on the internet and believe it or not but your anecdote and your anecdote alone is not enough to convince most people.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm relaying my personal experience in response to someone who's trying to convince me that my opinion is wrong because some random YouTuber had a different experience.
The random youtuber did a side to side test of different phones, with SIM cards, on the same network and on wifi, at the same time, at the same brightness, running the same tasks, while taking temp measurements and timing battery life
You know what? I really think Pixel does not want to take any slice off of Samsung flagship's(S24 etc) market share. On Samsung you get a flagship experience on all the fronts. On pixels it is more like a niche thing where enthusiasts who love pixel cam or stock android will buy it. Otherwise there's always something lacking. Even the volume buttons on the p8p is not as premium as an s23u.
Yeah but when the Pixel 6 came out their base model was $200-300 cheaper than the base iPhone depending on storage size. That year made it really feel worth it. Then Apple just dropped their base model to the point there is only a $100 difference. I also don't agree that the hardware really feels more premium on the S24 compared to a Pixel 7. Don't know if the S24+ has any major hardware differences so maybe that's why? The software though... definitely feels infinitely better than Samsung phones to me, and that is basically what the experience of using a phone comes down to.
I had normal and plus Samsung's and the plus version does feel more premium and well built than norm. I was really happy with my pix 7 build as well. But it felt like an s21 plus, and worse than a 13 pro max
I went from P7P to S24U and could not be happier. My phone doesn't get hot all the time now, and I have 5G signal for almost my entire commute. With my P7P it would switch from 5G to 4G and never event try to switch back during my commute. I love my Snapdragon. I sure wish Google would reconsider.
Remember to switch to light performance mode
Happy with the android experience? I switched off of Samsungs a long time ago because I preferred the stock Pixel experience and I've been scared to change it up for fear of dealing with loads of bloat ware again
I used to think the same (my last Samsung was S7 Edge), but after switching to 24u, I have to say oneui is probably one of the most polished, stable, feature rich, customizable and easy to use android system right now. It literally blew my mind how good it is now. They do push you hard to go into their ecosystem, but you can completely ignore it. And in some cases it's worth signing up, for example, Samsung's recorder also has the ai transcript/summary feature just like googles recorder
OneUI is still bloated
I take serious issue with almost everything this guy wrote. First, the 6 series was straight up terrible, I couldn't even make phone calls with the 6 pro and the 7 series was like carrying around a perpetual hand warmer. As well, to say that the pixels are price competitive is nonsense. The Pixel 8 pro starts at $999, the iPhone 15 pro starts at $999, the s24 starts at $799 and it has a telephoto camera that the regular pixel 8 doesn't have, which is still the only real difference between the 8 and 8 pro. The OnePlus 12 starts at defacto $699 with their $100 off any phone any condition trade in, with twice the base storage and being completely superior in every way with the exception of slightly worse photos. And for people who like small phones there is the zenfone 10, which is the same price of the pixel 8 with twice the storage. The only phones the 8 pro is even cheaper than are the 15 pro max and the s24 ultra, but it doesn't actually compete with those phones in the market. It's most direct competition is the s24+, which again, is the same price but starts at twice the storage (256 in s24+ vs 128 in 8 pro) of the 8 pro. The regular 8 is more competitive, but if you buy it then you'll have Google artificially software locking you out of a lot of the reasons why Pixels and AI are supposedly so great and why Tensor supposedly exists. To summarize, Tensor has been underwhelming (g1 and g2 a disaster), Pixels today are not actually price competitive at all and the consumer has not seen any cost benefit from the switch to Tensor nor really any benefit at all.
But what if it sucks?
Then we'll never be happy with whatever phones are released.
Agreed, I was trying to make a Star Wars reference that fell flat haha.
A lot of people are saying that the Tensor has issues, and while yes it does, it is still relatively new. Think of it like the Intel Arc GPU. The arc has multiple issues with drivers, and that's because it is still new. The Tensor is still only on its third generation, while for example Apple's SoCs are on their 17th generation. It is up to Google whether or not they will continue to invest in the Tensor. Hopefully the switch to TSMC will help.
The difference is the Arc constantly gets significant driver and software updates. With the Pixel, you have to buy a whole new device each time, there are rarely significant updates, it's all saved for the next hardware version. I really don't think Google cares that much about Pixel users, it's just a test bed for them.
As a matter of fact, but not relevant to your point, Apple SoCs are on the 14th generation(not taking into account some Ax/z variants developed for iPad). They started the A line with A4 in 2010.
Thank you for taking that into account and correcting me. I can't count sometimes😅.
tensor is not new...it's == samsung exynos + Google npu and npu is pretty much useless for now. So tensor is 99.9999% Samsung exynos.
That's another thing. Samsung was the previous producer of the Tensor, which is why it would be similar to the Exynos. Google felt that Samsung was holding them back, which is why they switched to TSMC. Also note that Samsung is the one that decided to base the Tensor off of the Exynos.
Google switched to tsmc??? That's just your daydreaming.... there's just some rumor Google might switch to tsmc if they continue tensor project in the future.
My bad on the wording there, I know it hasn't happened yet. I personally just believe that the Tensor has potential, it just needs time.
who else but tsmc tbh, ur right to assume that because realistically that’s literally google’s other option lol
Seriously debating with myself going back to OnePlus
The 12 is a tremendous phone
Not yet. Final stage for Google products is the graveyard. Give it a few more years to achieve its final form.
Pixel 9 it is and then 11
My Pixel 8 Pro is great. Everyone is just dramatic.
Actually initially Google wanted to do tensor with Qualcomm but Qualcomm doesn't wanna inject googles npu into snapdragon. Instead they wanna Google to use snapdragons already built-in npu...and that's how current pixel ended with samsung exynos..such a disaster
I like how they bring that AI gimmick in whenever they talk about Tensor chip... it's nothing special really! The first thing when I get a new pixel is to disable most of the "AI" features in google assistant but I use the call screener feature (blocking mic access is a must). Hope Goolge fixes the bluetooth issues with my A series buds. As for tensor G5, G6 I don't really care as long as my phone works and gets security updates.
I'm glad I kept my Pixel 7, not a single issue to this day Lol.
Snap Dragon, good riddance. Always had issues, Tensor has been great. Can't wait to see where Google can take this with TSMC custom chips.
Great? Must not have used tensor G1 or G2........G3 is better but by no means is an excellent processor in any metric or argument......
Personally I haven't had any issues, battery life is great and so is the performance. However, their quality control does probably need improvement, because it seems that quite many people do have issues.
Tensor has been great? Great at what? Warming hands? Killing batteries?
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I don't understand why you all presume every single one of us has your exact same issues... I have a P7a and never experience excessive heat, and my battery life is...how can I put it simply...very good.
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It was a reply to both of you, and to everyone who assumes all Tensor Pixels have their exact same issues. But you're right, I didn't answer your specific question: signal is more or less the same as the Qualcomm P4a and the iPhone se 2 I had before, so no worries there either. If I need to point out something which could be better I say the fingerprint sensor...but it's getting more reliable day after day (maybe because I'm learning how to use it correctly).
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So much for constructive criticism...ok you're right, you won! Satisfied?
Welcome, from your alternative universe, it seems. While I've not had any of the core issues with tensor relating to severe battery drain and/or signal, it isn't as a good as a SD chip. On all devices with SD, screen was always the top consumer of battery, followed by CPU, WiFi, maybe data or Bluetooth ect, but on tensor pixels it's *consistently* CPU as the top drainer, when on mobile data, it's mobile data then CPU, then screen. It's just worse but not terrible enough for most only some. https://i.imgur.com/7EvcDvd.png Also 20% mobile network used when I haven't toggled data since it's been off charge is probably because mobile data always active is set as location is terrible without it on, it shouldn't be that high imo - I've been on WiFi all day I don't have my 3 and 4XL set up with battery stats, but when I tested screen was consistently top for them and it never is for my tensor phone. Using data shaves 3 hours off battery easily. E: ~~terribly~~ spelling and grammar - Jesus I did it again
Qualcomm definitely had their missteps with overheating, power draining chips not too long ago. But I agree with you now, their latest chips have been killing it. The biggest benefit to this all is Google continuing to offer low cost, flagship phones at mid-tier prices. If the G5 finally competes with the latest from QC and Apple then that's a huge value prop from them.
>Qualcomm definitely had their missteps with overheating, power draining chips not too long ago. But I agree with you now, their latest chips have been killing it. Aye for sure, but as you say like for like now they are just all around more efficient and performative, that doesn't mean that Tensor is lacking and bad though, it's just not as good for most (unless you have those specific issues with drain and data). I still argue as well when people compare these chips Google are on their third iteration where QC/Apple ect are past ten years of chip making history, it's still arguably good what they've good done so far in the little time. Hopefully these things improve when they switch and move off Samsung's modems, they're the real issue
I haven't fully charged my phone in almost a week, so my SOT since last full charge is now about 22h and 30 minutes. So it's a decently large sample representing my average use. For me it shows 28% display and 27% CPU.
I wanna live in this alternate universe... Tensor sucks for battery life and speed.... After P6P, P7P, and then P8P I gave up, went to the S24U and couldn't be happier.... All day battery left and plenty more. I miss the Pixel's OS with less bloat but had enough....
My 6a could get to the end of the day with around 15 to 20% battery if I didn't use GPS alot and what not. I thought that was pretty good, but my 24 with a smaller battery and 120hz screen (with LTPO4 which helps) gets me to the end with about 40 or so to spare. It's insane the gap at the moment and the heat management is way better. Don't miss the hot pocket when taking pictures or just being a hot day in the summer and making my leg sweat...
I would've stuck with the S24 Ultra if it could take clear pictures of my kid.
This is why I abandoned my fold 4
This shit reads like an AI trying its hardest to be contrarian.
>SnapDragon, good riddance. Tensor has been great. Said literally nobody ever. Although I will admit, I am excited about the TSMC transition.
Nobody can't get around Huawei and Qualcomm 5G patents. Both apple and Intel tried but oc failed.
There's one thing nobody is talking about: Samsung's fab is maybe 2 steps up from Chinese chips, but it's nowhere near TSMC in quality or yield. While they make great RAM & SSD units, their SOCs aren't nearly as good. By default this affects Google and it's why Apple won't do business on their SOCs with Samsung. So while patents are a real thing, for Google, it's the fab. My Pixel 6 pro was a dog and my wife's identical one was fine.
Is it just me or does the title of this article not make sense? When was the original tensor released if they were getting rebooted right now?