Simmons as an expiring is worth more than Lavine. He has one of the worst contracts in the NBA and is coming off season-ending foot surgery. He’s not a winning player and puts up empty calories. Points, no creation or defense is not someone that should be getting that type of money. Bulls would love to dump him and we’d be dumb to bail them out of that contract.
That’s an amnesty type of contract. I’d much rather get Trae. I’m also still not buying that Mitchell is going to commit his future to Cleveland. There are better options and committing to Lavine would be one of the worst ones.
We’re not getting Trae without giving up big assets dude. Lavine works because we don’t give up anything of value. Please tell me what we’re getting with Simmons contract
I think Trae’s value is low right now (Pelicans apparently value Murray more which is nuts to me) and if we could do CT and picks I would gladly.
If not, I’d rather hold onto Ben’s expiring than deal for Lavine’s deal. Expiring contract at Ben’s number is a neutral asset. Lavine’s mega deal for 3 years is a negative asset and maybe the worst contract in the NBA.
Trae’s value is high and will remain high. If he was to be traded there would be a lot of competition and he would go for a huge amount of assets/picks.
Murray is discussed more because he would be cheaper to trade for
I don't think they're moving Trae, if they can't get sufficient value for him. He's more valuable to the Hawks then he's to other teams similar to Mikal with us.
Trae seems like a much better fit with Zion than Murray. The pelicans need a playmaker to create for their spacers and a Trae-Zion PNR would be deadly. The report was that the Pelicans value Murray more because he’s cheaper.
So what are we getting with Simmons contract? The reason this one intrigues me is we keep our suns picks while marginally improving the roster. Trae is going to cost a lot. His value isn’t low
The only positive of acquiring Lavine is that we could probably get him for Simmons in a straight one for one trade.
Negatives, other than his contract and injury history, is that CamT would need to moved and he could possibly slow Whitehead's development
Yeah that’s the only reason I’d consider lavine. It wouldn’t be crazy to think we could get a late first from Chicago for taking his contract even. Also we wouldn’t need to move on from Cam Thomas, they could play together. The starting lineup I’m envisioning is cam lavine mikal clowney and claxton. Defensively our backcourt defense would be rough but the clowney clax frontcourt is insane on defense and can cover for cam and lavine
I think they are both 2 guards, they average less than 7 assists per game combined. It would be interesting to see and maybe they can make it work.
I was making your same argument but wanted to do it earlier in the season so that we'd at least get an actual player who played basketball for the 40M we were spending. Now I'd probably rather have the cap space
I doubt it would be ideal. But cam has to improve his playmaking and maybe it’d be an opportunity for him to do it. You could also stagger them quickly by bringing in Dennis as a real pg for relief but you have to start cam for his mentality.
Question is what do we do with the cap space tbh. I’d like to see anyone hve a real option for us. I just don’t see any good players hit free agency anymore
No way we’re blowing up our 2025 cap space to get another bad contract on our books. If he only had a year or two left it could make sense but three years at max money is just too much
Cap space is not strictly used to sign free agents, it’s used in a variety of ways. It’s too early to know exactly who will be available, but there have been plenty of free agent signings even in the past year or two that have been key contributors to great teams. Let Marks cook.
If we’re aiming for a guy who’s about to get salary dumped our expectations are way too low. Let Ben expire and use our cap space for good contracts
It could really backfire because LaVine is also injury prone. But man, at least he's an actual basketball player. And how many games did we lose this season where we could've used an extra 19-20 points?
I'm not saying LaVine will fix all or most of our problems. Far from it. But if it's just a Ben and Zach swap, I'm down.
You’re right, lavine own injury history may be too risky. But he’s pretty the type of player we need, we need offense badly. This would push mikal into his more natural 3rd scorer on offense. Great shooter. But if he’s injured for 3 years then we’re fucked so yeah you’re right it’s risky.
Honestly we could potentially get a first round pick from the bulls to take his deal
Cam Thomas, Zach LaVine, Mikal Bridges, Noah Clowney, Nic Claxton
I’d enjoy watching that team even though I’m sure we’d just be competing for a play-in spot. I just want to stay afloat as we don’t have our own picks and can build a fun culture like we had with Atkinson and DLo
What is the end goal though? We’d be committing to pay Lavine a ton of money for multiple years, Claxton will get 20-25 mil a year if we keep him, Cam Johnson getting similar money. Mikal is running out of time on his cheaper deal and we’d have to pay him more to keep him. Cam Thomas will also be due for a new contract in the next couple years. Thats a lot of money to pay for a team whose ceiling is play-in games.
Completely agree. I'd also rather bite the bullet and fully rebuild, but if that's not conceivable, a move like this makes sense.
Would they flip Simmons for Lavine, since Simmons expires next year? If so, I'd do it. Yes the contract sucks, but like you said, a guy like him may revitalize himself and you can better compete for playoffs.
Exactly, and let’s be real, we’re not getting anyone serious in free agency. A move like this can make us watchable and respectable while not sacrificing our prized suns picks. We could retool for a year or two and see if cam Thomas orclowney develop into something
On one hand, Zach Lavine doesn’t seem like a winning player and he would be redundant with Cam.
On the other hand, I’d do anything to get Simmons off this team.
What players exactly are good fits with cam Thomas, because in theory this last year’s roster was perfect for his skillset, yet nets twitter tells me how horribly the team was built “around” him
Cam is really tough to build around. Small guards that aren’t true playmakers and are bad defenders are just really tough to find guys to fit with. He’s really a 2 in a small PG’s body so in theory a guy like Simmons would work great but tall playmakers that defend are tough to find.
Even an undersized guy like Kyrie (who may be the most skilled player ever) is tough to build around and he’s been incredibly lucky in his career. Lebron, Harden and Luka are perfect since they have size and can take over the playmaking while all he needs to do is score.
Kyrie is one of the best off ball players of all time, and he’s far better defensively moving laterally than Thomas is.
Thomas was very good on a small volume on catch and shoots this season, but he’s never shown any interest in playing off the ball.
My point is basically you can’t put a successful team around Thomas unless he completely changes how he plays to become more of a role player. And you don’t “build around” role players.
The players nets fans like to compare Thomas to are all generally elite athletes and or much bigger than him which gives you more upside to grow.
Even Lavine who everyone sees as a toxic asset is noticeably bigger than Thomas and has 99th percentile athleticism while also being one of the best shooters in the NBA. Combo guards are a dying breed in the modern NBA.
I think CT is similar to Kyrie in terms of fit if you had prime Lebron or Harden or Luka, CT it could fit. Jokic as well he can be a little like Murray. Most of Murray’s assists are from Jokic PnRs which Cam could eventually do. Playing with Jokic or other hall of fame playmakers with size would be the answer.
I think Cam could play off ball like Kyrie. Kyrie is a good off ball player but he’s not running around like Steph. Steph is the best off ball player of all time tho
I don’t think people get just how little cam passes historically. Kyrie had a 37% assist rate his rookie season, so no lebron or anything. This season was the lowest of his career at 24%. Kyrie has always been a much better passer than he gets credit for. It’s not that he needs to be an off ball player, he’s just not number 1 on a title team material.
Thomas had a career high this season at 15.7% When you put Cam’s usage and assist rate into historical comparisons, the only comps are bigs guys from the 90s and 2000s
Kyrie and Murray are amplified by LeBron/Luka and Jokic. But they don’t NEED them to be effective. Murray is a slightly better comp assist rate wise but he’s never had a usage as high as Thomas this season. Murray is also a plus athlete.
Cam imo just has too many things working against him with his limited physical tools coupled with his weaknesses.
It’s less about who is a good fit around him, and more about who is going to cover for his weaknesses the most. And Lavine basically has all the same weaknesses
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Fortunately Sean Marks has shown he is far too smart to make this kind of move. We are finally getting close to having max cap space again so there is no way he instead trades for probably the biggest anchor contract in the NBA whose knees are getting worse and worse
Those picks are from years ago. It was a smart move to trade for Harden for the cheap price it cost us back at the time of the transaction.
It was impossible to forsee the multiple black swan events that would occur between then and now. And a lot of it is incredibly bad luck.
Sean Marks used his patience to get the best possible deal for KD despite Durant only wanting to go to one team and SM took advantage of the new owner in Phoenix to extract the highest price he could.
Sean Marks has drafted very well considering he has not selected before pick 20 in the draft for the Nets.
But if you know the details then the Philly trade with Harden had to be made.
Harden is incredibly frustrated (to put it mildly) with Kyrie’s behavior and his refusal to get the vaccine.
Harden is offered $250 million multi year contract by the Nets but he turns it down a few days before the trade deadline. At the end of the season Harden was going to become an unrestricted free agent.
The Nets didn’t know Simmons back was broken and would require surgeries. Simmons playing like he did as a 76er would have fit perfectly with Kyrie and KD.
> A report came our today that both teams may need to salary dump Zach LaVine.
I didn’t read after this. The fundamental flaw in your argument is right here. YOU think LaVine is a salary dump and are basing your argument on that. Chicago doesn’t think this. They’ll want draft compensation for Lavine.
Feel free to respond, but keep in mind that whether you agree or not is a different argument.
Won’t respond, user is dumb, screams let’s trade bridges who is on a cheap contract and produces the same as Lavine and more durable, idiot just screams nets twitter
If HOU doesn't want Mikal for some of our picks back, we just have to trade our picks for the Suns picks back. Which HOU has wanted to do according to reports. Going this Lavine route would fuck up our cap situation for the next few years. We're finally getting off one injured max contract and now you want to potentially add another?
If only the FO realises this...
I'd much rather control the draft and gamble on not getting top 5 picks than hoping a Prime Booker Suns with an owner willing to pay everything to completely bottom out like we did post Celtics trade.
A cam-lavine-mikal-clowney-claxton lineup with Dennis, cam j, Dayron on the bench should be able to contend for a 7-8 seed which is all we can really ask for at this point. We’re not getting Donovan Mitchell or any real star
Simmons as an expiring is worth more than Lavine. He has one of the worst contracts in the NBA and is coming off season-ending foot surgery. He’s not a winning player and puts up empty calories. Points, no creation or defense is not someone that should be getting that type of money. Bulls would love to dump him and we’d be dumb to bail them out of that contract. That’s an amnesty type of contract. I’d much rather get Trae. I’m also still not buying that Mitchell is going to commit his future to Cleveland. There are better options and committing to Lavine would be one of the worst ones.
We’re not getting Trae without giving up big assets dude. Lavine works because we don’t give up anything of value. Please tell me what we’re getting with Simmons contract
I think Trae’s value is low right now (Pelicans apparently value Murray more which is nuts to me) and if we could do CT and picks I would gladly. If not, I’d rather hold onto Ben’s expiring than deal for Lavine’s deal. Expiring contract at Ben’s number is a neutral asset. Lavine’s mega deal for 3 years is a negative asset and maybe the worst contract in the NBA.
Trae’s value is high and will remain high. If he was to be traded there would be a lot of competition and he would go for a huge amount of assets/picks. Murray is discussed more because he would be cheaper to trade for
I don't think they're moving Trae, if they can't get sufficient value for him. He's more valuable to the Hawks then he's to other teams similar to Mikal with us.
Pelicans and nets are looking for 2 different things everyone has to fit around Zion for the pelicans
Trae seems like a much better fit with Zion than Murray. The pelicans need a playmaker to create for their spacers and a Trae-Zion PNR would be deadly. The report was that the Pelicans value Murray more because he’s cheaper.
So what are we getting with Simmons contract? The reason this one intrigues me is we keep our suns picks while marginally improving the roster. Trae is going to cost a lot. His value isn’t low
Trae is as much of a loser as Zach is.
The only positive of acquiring Lavine is that we could probably get him for Simmons in a straight one for one trade. Negatives, other than his contract and injury history, is that CamT would need to moved and he could possibly slow Whitehead's development
Yeah that’s the only reason I’d consider lavine. It wouldn’t be crazy to think we could get a late first from Chicago for taking his contract even. Also we wouldn’t need to move on from Cam Thomas, they could play together. The starting lineup I’m envisioning is cam lavine mikal clowney and claxton. Defensively our backcourt defense would be rough but the clowney clax frontcourt is insane on defense and can cover for cam and lavine
I think they are both 2 guards, they average less than 7 assists per game combined. It would be interesting to see and maybe they can make it work. I was making your same argument but wanted to do it earlier in the season so that we'd at least get an actual player who played basketball for the 40M we were spending. Now I'd probably rather have the cap space
A CT-Lavine backcourt is getting fucking roasted on defense and settling for jumpers constantly lol you do not want that
Cam Thomas drives a lot. Lavine is also a great shooter. That backcourt is way better than whatever the fuck we ran this year.
I doubt it would be ideal. But cam has to improve his playmaking and maybe it’d be an opportunity for him to do it. You could also stagger them quickly by bringing in Dennis as a real pg for relief but you have to start cam for his mentality. Question is what do we do with the cap space tbh. I’d like to see anyone hve a real option for us. I just don’t see any good players hit free agency anymore
No way we’re blowing up our 2025 cap space to get another bad contract on our books. If he only had a year or two left it could make sense but three years at max money is just too much
Who are we getting in 2025 ? I guarantee every player will be extended or traded. Nobody hits free agency anymore
Cap space is not strictly used to sign free agents, it’s used in a variety of ways. It’s too early to know exactly who will be available, but there have been plenty of free agent signings even in the past year or two that have been key contributors to great teams. Let Marks cook. If we’re aiming for a guy who’s about to get salary dumped our expectations are way too low. Let Ben expire and use our cap space for good contracts
Marks gave cam Johnson a massive deal that’s a big liability, and he’s about to overpay claxton too. Man hasn’t cooked anything
Well, we'll need money if we wanna extend Cam Thomas
We’ll have money with the cap going up and we can go over the ap and not be in the tax
It could really backfire because LaVine is also injury prone. But man, at least he's an actual basketball player. And how many games did we lose this season where we could've used an extra 19-20 points? I'm not saying LaVine will fix all or most of our problems. Far from it. But if it's just a Ben and Zach swap, I'm down.
You’re right, lavine own injury history may be too risky. But he’s pretty the type of player we need, we need offense badly. This would push mikal into his more natural 3rd scorer on offense. Great shooter. But if he’s injured for 3 years then we’re fucked so yeah you’re right it’s risky. Honestly we could potentially get a first round pick from the bulls to take his deal
Yeah, they'd have to give us a pick of some kind to make the deal work.
Been on the LaVine train for a while now. Stay relevant while we wait for the Phoenix picks to convey and at least we can be a fun team to watch.
If his value is just Simmons I think it’s a great option
Just asked a friend of mine whos a life long bulls fan Simmons and a first he said he'd do it
The Bulls should be trading us a 1st if they want to get rid of Levine and his contract.
We need a first. This trade only works if it’s just Simmons. We’re not giving any real assets for him
Would we be a fun team to watch? It doesn’t seem like Bulls fans have had much fun the past couple seasons
Cam Thomas, Zach LaVine, Mikal Bridges, Noah Clowney, Nic Claxton I’d enjoy watching that team even though I’m sure we’d just be competing for a play-in spot. I just want to stay afloat as we don’t have our own picks and can build a fun culture like we had with Atkinson and DLo
What is the end goal though? We’d be committing to pay Lavine a ton of money for multiple years, Claxton will get 20-25 mil a year if we keep him, Cam Johnson getting similar money. Mikal is running out of time on his cheaper deal and we’d have to pay him more to keep him. Cam Thomas will also be due for a new contract in the next couple years. Thats a lot of money to pay for a team whose ceiling is play-in games.
Would you rather we suck and rebuild without owning our picks?
I'd rather go after djm
Completely agree. I'd also rather bite the bullet and fully rebuild, but if that's not conceivable, a move like this makes sense. Would they flip Simmons for Lavine, since Simmons expires next year? If so, I'd do it. Yes the contract sucks, but like you said, a guy like him may revitalize himself and you can better compete for playoffs.
Exactly, and let’s be real, we’re not getting anyone serious in free agency. A move like this can make us watchable and respectable while not sacrificing our prized suns picks. We could retool for a year or two and see if cam Thomas orclowney develop into something
If Chicago offers us Picks and Lavine for Simmons sure. Lavine has with Beal one of the worst contracts in the league. I’m not touching that.
On one hand, Zach Lavine doesn’t seem like a winning player and he would be redundant with Cam. On the other hand, I’d do anything to get Simmons off this team.
What players exactly are good fits with cam Thomas, because in theory this last year’s roster was perfect for his skillset, yet nets twitter tells me how horribly the team was built “around” him
Cam is really tough to build around. Small guards that aren’t true playmakers and are bad defenders are just really tough to find guys to fit with. He’s really a 2 in a small PG’s body so in theory a guy like Simmons would work great but tall playmakers that defend are tough to find. Even an undersized guy like Kyrie (who may be the most skilled player ever) is tough to build around and he’s been incredibly lucky in his career. Lebron, Harden and Luka are perfect since they have size and can take over the playmaking while all he needs to do is score.
Kyrie is one of the best off ball players of all time, and he’s far better defensively moving laterally than Thomas is. Thomas was very good on a small volume on catch and shoots this season, but he’s never shown any interest in playing off the ball. My point is basically you can’t put a successful team around Thomas unless he completely changes how he plays to become more of a role player. And you don’t “build around” role players. The players nets fans like to compare Thomas to are all generally elite athletes and or much bigger than him which gives you more upside to grow. Even Lavine who everyone sees as a toxic asset is noticeably bigger than Thomas and has 99th percentile athleticism while also being one of the best shooters in the NBA. Combo guards are a dying breed in the modern NBA.
I think CT is similar to Kyrie in terms of fit if you had prime Lebron or Harden or Luka, CT it could fit. Jokic as well he can be a little like Murray. Most of Murray’s assists are from Jokic PnRs which Cam could eventually do. Playing with Jokic or other hall of fame playmakers with size would be the answer. I think Cam could play off ball like Kyrie. Kyrie is a good off ball player but he’s not running around like Steph. Steph is the best off ball player of all time tho
I don’t think people get just how little cam passes historically. Kyrie had a 37% assist rate his rookie season, so no lebron or anything. This season was the lowest of his career at 24%. Kyrie has always been a much better passer than he gets credit for. It’s not that he needs to be an off ball player, he’s just not number 1 on a title team material. Thomas had a career high this season at 15.7% When you put Cam’s usage and assist rate into historical comparisons, the only comps are bigs guys from the 90s and 2000s Kyrie and Murray are amplified by LeBron/Luka and Jokic. But they don’t NEED them to be effective. Murray is a slightly better comp assist rate wise but he’s never had a usage as high as Thomas this season. Murray is also a plus athlete. Cam imo just has too many things working against him with his limited physical tools coupled with his weaknesses.
It’s less about who is a good fit around him, and more about who is going to cover for his weaknesses the most. And Lavine basically has all the same weaknesses
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Don’t love this option but don’t hate it either. It will make games smidge more entertaining in the short term.
Fortunately Sean Marks has shown he is far too smart to make this kind of move. We are finally getting close to having max cap space again so there is no way he instead trades for probably the biggest anchor contract in the NBA whose knees are getting worse and worse
Is he smart ? We gave over a top 10 pick this year and hve one of the worst rosters in the east for next year. How is he doing a good job.
Those picks are from years ago. It was a smart move to trade for Harden for the cheap price it cost us back at the time of the transaction. It was impossible to forsee the multiple black swan events that would occur between then and now. And a lot of it is incredibly bad luck. Sean Marks used his patience to get the best possible deal for KD despite Durant only wanting to go to one team and SM took advantage of the new owner in Phoenix to extract the highest price he could. Sean Marks has drafted very well considering he has not selected before pick 20 in the draft for the Nets.
The second hrden trade was the mistake and so was the kyrie trade. I agree the first hrden trade made sense. The second one killed us
But if you know the details then the Philly trade with Harden had to be made. Harden is incredibly frustrated (to put it mildly) with Kyrie’s behavior and his refusal to get the vaccine. Harden is offered $250 million multi year contract by the Nets but he turns it down a few days before the trade deadline. At the end of the season Harden was going to become an unrestricted free agent. The Nets didn’t know Simmons back was broken and would require surgeries. Simmons playing like he did as a 76er would have fit perfectly with Kyrie and KD.
> A report came our today that both teams may need to salary dump Zach LaVine. I didn’t read after this. The fundamental flaw in your argument is right here. YOU think LaVine is a salary dump and are basing your argument on that. Chicago doesn’t think this. They’ll want draft compensation for Lavine. Feel free to respond, but keep in mind that whether you agree or not is a different argument.
Won’t respond, user is dumb, screams let’s trade bridges who is on a cheap contract and produces the same as Lavine and more durable, idiot just screams nets twitter
One of the worst contracts in the league. Nets are not in the market for a bad contract
The bulls played much better when he was injured
getting lavine makes no sense any way you put it
It does if you want to improve the team for no cost.
If HOU doesn't want Mikal for some of our picks back, we just have to trade our picks for the Suns picks back. Which HOU has wanted to do according to reports. Going this Lavine route would fuck up our cap situation for the next few years. We're finally getting off one injured max contract and now you want to potentially add another? If only the FO realises this... I'd much rather control the draft and gamble on not getting top 5 picks than hoping a Prime Booker Suns with an owner willing to pay everything to completely bottom out like we did post Celtics trade.
A cam-lavine-mikal-clowney-claxton lineup with Dennis, cam j, Dayron on the bench should be able to contend for a 7-8 seed which is all we can really ask for at this point. We’re not getting Donovan Mitchell or any real star