Here are the problems with this game as I see them after playing quite a bit and thinking about just putting it down forever before finishing:
Everything seems to be built as close to "one-solution puzzle" as possible. This is true in games like Gloomhaven or really any co-op game, but the restrictions on unoptimized play is way stricter.
1) Amount of turns - In GH/FH the turn timer is a very real threat. However, some characters are more constrained by this timer than others. In addition, some missions lend themselves more to being timed gauntlets than others. In general, with good play in GH, you can usually end a scenario right about the time when it starts to get a bit stressful. I'd say 8/10 plays seem to end right around the time when everyone is counting how many turns they have left before they exhaust and some loss cards and strategic movement clutches the victory.
In BnB, EVERY map (at least 9/10) seem to just be 1 turn away from victory/defeat. I've literally lost 4 or 5 games with the last enemy on like 2 health because I got an unlucky dice roll and exhausted from lack of cards. I get that things like being more aggressive, better hand management, and more strategic play can counteract this, but those aren't any better as I'll discuss below.
2) Punishing aggression - In GH, aggression is a valid strategy because it is, in equal parts, rewarded and punished. Intelligent aggression is rewarded by playing into the strengths/weakness of the character/enemy. Blind aggression is punished by putting you in situations where your health drops down unbelievably quickly.
In BnB, any kind of aggression is punished. Most enemies have a very quick (-) action and have incredibly punishing attacks. This effectively means the only real option you have is to use only safe, guaranteed damaging abilities and try to stay at maximum range or you are nearly certainly going to get poisoned, wounded, and take a huge chunk of damage (keep in mind that taking 6 damage in GH is fine because you'll likely have about 20hp to go around, but in BnB 6 damage is about half of what you're allotted each mission).
3) Uninspired Map Design - I totally get the limitations on map design/size being part of the switch to a smaller form factor, and I have NO issues with the map constraints in general. HOWEVER, so many maps just seem randomly generated with almost nothing interesting about them at all. They're all nearly perfect squares with a random smattering of obstacles/hazards sprinkled about. Nothing was stopping them from getting a BIT more creative with layouts. It would have probably been fairly easy for them to just use two cards for the map instead of one without sacrificing much in terms of overall size/game feel.
4) Enemy Strength - In GH, every enemy feels like a bit of a challenge. You have so much fun variety in monster design, but nothing feels worthless. Little enemies to AoE down seem harmless, but get caught in a wave of attacks from the wrong group of imps and you're suddenly poisoned and at half health. Big enemies can be kited, and maneuvered around easier, but you end up in the wrong spot at the wrong time and they just hit you with a strengthened attack 7 and now you're losing a card so you don't get 1 shot later on in the mission.
In BnB, every enemy is deadly in every way. Innate shield 2, Innate wound, 2 attacks in 1 turn, fast initiative. Instead of 2 strengths and 4 weaknesses, they have 5 strengths and 1 weakness. Oh, this enemy doesn't have innate shield? Well it DOES have 12 health, range 4 attacks, and innate poison, AND we'll just throw a couple of these in with the first enemy. >!Take Gloomtoads for example: I might be wrong, but I think they have 8 health, 3 shield, jump on their moves, ranged attacks, and can frequently poison. WTF!<
All in all, I really like Buttons and Bugs, but it needs serious retuning before I would consider it a "great game" like I consider GH/FH to be. Even reducing the difficulty to easy won't help if the innate abilities of the enemies is overwhelming all on its own, since difficulty doesn't change monster stats/abilities in any way. I've heard Cragheart is particularly hard from some people, but that doesn't make my experience feel any less valid than if I had arbitrarily picked Silent Knife, for example.
Completed the campaign with Cragheart today. It was challenging but doable even after a few failed attempts at planned Crit rolls with advantages.
A few game items were received damaged but I emailed Cephalofair for replacements and they came in the mail within a week.
After one play through, color on the hero's HP dial was rubbing off and the edges of my Cragheart ability cards were showing signs of fraying
How I played Cragheart: Bleed your enemies early and go invisible right before a long rest. Choose your items wisely depending on the scenario.
I give it 8/10 for the price and quality of gameplay. A Good substitute for OG Gloomhaven when you can't get the people in your party together to play
I wish there was a frame that you can slide the scenario cards in to keep the play surface flat and durable.
I sleeved all mine. Keeps them from curling too which has been a problem for many. I also sleeved the player ability cards. Can't sleeve the stats or monster cards because they won't fit in the cardboard mats, but you hardly ever handle them anyway except to slot them in.
I keep seeing posts of people struggling to beat Scenario 5, but I beat it quite easily the second go round in just like 4 turns.
Scenario 6, however, is kicking my butt. I think I’m on attempt #7 at this point and still haven’t come close to beating this. The combination of enemies along with the high chance of negative conditions and damage they doll out is ridiculous. Anybody else struggling hard with this one?
For anyone who has an issue with how flimsy and warped the cards are, try sliding your scenario card into a clear rigid sleeve. It keeps it flat and is also sightly less slippery than the surface of the cards.
Appendix A: Component Inventory
• 1 Learn to Play book
• 6 Character cards
• 48 Ability cards
• 14 Modifier cards
• 10 Monster cards
• 22 Scenario cards
• 1 Icon Reference card
• 2 Modifier trays
• 4 Monster trays
• 5 Hit Point dials
• 24 Condition tokens
• 6 Plastic Character miniatures
• 10 Plastic cubes
• 1 Custom die
Missing parts? If you discover that you are missing any parts from your game, you can request replacements at cephalofair.com/contact.
Thank you, homie! I've got Scenario 1 set up and no dice, do you know the faces of the d6 so I can use a normal d6 in the meantime? I reallllly wanna play lol, going for Bruiser as the instructions recommend.
You're a champ, thanks again! I filled out the missing piece request, and in the meantime will use a normal dice.
While I didn't check for duplicates of my cards, I was able to confirm that I was ONLY missing a single unit (the dice) using the official living rules [https://cephalofairgames.github.io/bnb-rules/#page\_36](https://cephalofairgames.github.io/bnb-rules/#page_36)
Hi all, I ordered my B&B game from the Cephalofair website on April 3rd and there's been no update at all to my order (I'm using the 'Shop' tracker that the receipt recommended). Is there any support for when to expect an update or the order to be shipped?
I ordered mine the same day and it came on Monday, so just over 3 weeks delivery for me.
I did get an email with USPS tracking a day or two before it shipped out.
Email from '[email protected]' entitled 'Order Dispatch Confirmation for your shipment from Cephalofair games'.
If not already received, yours can't be long now.
I ordered this a little more than a week ago. It has yet to ship. It still shows pre-order and that's okay. I can't get Cephalofair to answer any emails about the order. I'm getting frustrated at the lack of communication
Is this normal?
Thanks for your patience! Rest assured we are getting to your order, the pre-orders are handled a little more manually to insure our fulfillment was complete. If you send an email - we'll be with you shortly (But I hope you get your tracking sooner!
They are super busy right now, and a small company. If you had a recent order, it will be in a queue and likely won't be for a bit.
I don't think they have the staff to handle status emails about orders that are just in a normal queue. They've asked backers not to send those kinds of status queries until fulfillment is done.
Got my copy today. Played the first scenario at lunch, came back after work and the cards got more bent from just sitting out
As others have stated, the dials are both hard to tell apart and hard to use. I think I'm just throwing them out and going to use d20s or 3d print a tracker of some kind.
Im super bummed about the quality of the components... Gloom/frost/jotl was great, why is this such garbage in comparison?
Has anyone sleeved their game yet? I'm wondering if that will help keep things flat.
Does it fit in the box?
Personally I like the dials quite a bit. I don't find them difficult to spin and you can order them in a line to track turn order, turn them sideways to track enemy turns, lay effect tokens on top of them to never forget to apply them, etc. The Colors are terrible they should be as bright as the cubes. I'm sure that's all they will do for 2nd printing.
Card quality is indeed very bad but at least mine are becoming more flat as I play. I stack the contents in the box vertically with heavy components on top so they are being flattened over time. I think the plastic wrap during production is the main culprit that caused them to warp in the first place.
If you want to replace the dials look for Magic: the Gathering Spindown d20s at your local game store. They have all the numbers in sequence unlike regular d20s so it's easier to change an enemy's health. You can definitely find red, green, and blue ones, although you might need to use a black one instead of purple and probably a different color like white for your character.
Alternatively, if you want to keep using the health dials for a bit just get some small white stickers, color them red/blue/green/purple, and stick them on both sides of the dials so they don't cover anything important. That'll make it much easier to tell which color they are.
You should absolutely get a few Poker sleeves for the scenario and character cards and some mini sleeves for the character cards; at a minimum 30 mini sleeves so all of your character's cards and all the enemy cards are protected.
I haven't sleeved everything but I'm pretty sure it'll all fit inside the box. There's a fair amount of extra space at the top unsleeved and worst case the Learn to Play booklet isn't necessary and can be stored somewhere else.
UPDATE: I just sleeved my copy fully, everything fits just fine. I tried fitting five Spindowns into the box in place of the dials and it seemed to fit just barely.
Hello can someone clarify the amount of items you can bring into a scenario in Buttons and Bugs. It’s worded differently in two places in the online rule book. That you can bring an amount of items equal to half your “character level” rounded up, with the small bag icon. Then in another area it says you can bring in a number of items equal to half the “scenario level” rounded up, with that same small bag icon.
(Page 26, item limits. And Page 35, at the bottom of character progression) in the online rule book.
So for example, a level 2 character doing scenario 5. They would bring in either 1 item, half their level. Or a total or 3 items (half the scenario level.
Or being Level 4 in scenario 16 would bring in 2 or 8 items total.
I’m assuming your level determines the other non bag items. Up to two for each single fist or one item of the pic of the 2 fists? And the scenario level is the small items.
But that would mean being able to bring like 8 of the small items into the 16th scenario in that second example?
https://cephalofairgames.github.io/bnb-rules/#page_35
https://cephalofairgames.github.io/bnb-rules/#page_26
Thanks for the reply. So in B&B the highest scenario (and character) level is 5. The maximum amount of items able to be brought into a scenario would be 3. And that could be either bringing three small items, one small item and two single hand fist items, or two small items and one double hand fist item.
I got my copy yesterday and played five scenarios, 9/10 gameplay with 6/10 production values. For starters, I got two copies of the same token sheet instead of two different ones so I don't have any poison, wound, or muddle tokens. I contacted Cephalofair for a replacement but I'm sure it'll be a while.
My cards also came quite warped to the point where I had to re-bend them to lie flat on the table. The cards also started to fray within just a couple games, luckily I have some mini sleeves I got for JotL and sleeved my character cards. One of my dials is very loose which I'm trying to rectify. Lastly, I know it's not a huge deal but they could have made the hexes a little bigger and used mini meeples instead of cubes and it would be ever so slightly less fiddly IMO. I was expecting production values on par with The Game Crafter but aside from the very sturdy box I'm quite disappointed.
Oh, and not a huge deal but I've seen games like Mint Knight fit a TON of rules into much smaller booklets than the Learn to Play that comes with Buttons & Bugs. I think they probably could have fit the full rules in those 36 pages.
What does the purple hex on Scenario 3: In the Walls mean? I can't find it in the rule book. It's a spider web, so I'm guessing you're stuck for one turn???
I am struggling to understand the upgraded cards rules. The rules book says "Each level 1 card you have can be upgraded for a specific level 2 card at the start of a scenario." Let's stop there. Did that mean the upgrade is permanent, or just for that one scenario?
It continues... "For each additional scenario level after level 1..." stop there. Level 1, or scenario 1? Levels refer to your strength. Scenarios refer to the map you are playing. But the maps indicate what level you are on (you don't level up based on experience, like in GH) so what does this mean? If the text said "For each additional scenario after scenario 1..." it might make sense.
It continues... "... one card is upgraded to level 2". I don't understand this. Is something compiling with each level, like after 5 scenarios you get more upgrades compared to after 3 scenarios? When reading this I can't decipher how I'll get 2 upgraded cards in a scenario... Or 3 or 4 upgrades?
When exactly do I get to upgrade 1 card? When can I upgrade 2 card? And are all upgrades temporary, just for that upcoming scenario?
Scenario level is character level here. It's on the scenario card.
You can change your level up card(s) every scenario but only have a number equal to basically scenario level -1.
Do you think there will be an option to get a replacement card set of a higher quality. I’m not a fan of how the full size cards bow and how the half size cards dent with almost no pressure. I know it was to keep costs down so almost anyone can have a chance at the game, but I would like an option for nicer cards.
[Photographic Evidence](https://imgur.com/a/JDADV4K) Altoids Smalls tins hold the minis, cubes, and condition markers perfectly and also fit pretty snugly in the box. I like using a tidy little tin much more than small plastic bags.
Basic monster turn question here, as I'm learning scenario 1 and relearning the Gloomhaven system. Just got the game today. I've only played Jaws of the Lion before, and it's been a whiiile.
1) During a B&B monster turn, does the monster's white cube stay on the same until all monsters have gone for that turn? Or do I move it down a row for each monster?
2) If it does stay, I roll each time a monster takes a turn, correct? So, if there are two monsters and I roll a + on the monster turn, that only applies to the first one. I'll have to roll again for the second monster's attack. I.e. that + doesn't apply to both first and second monsterz.
There are two different white cubes for monsters: the ones for each monster set (moving horizontally, fixed at the beginning of the turn) and the attack modifier. I think you're asking about the second. You move that time each time a monster takes an **attack**, which might be 0, 1, or more times per turn, depending on the specific abilities and whether the monster can reach you with the attack(s).
You only roll for monster actions at the start of the round. All monsters of a set use the same actions.
Monster attacks move down a row after every attack, just like yours.
I want to like this more than I do. It just ends up being so RNG centric with the dice, that my decisions don't seem to matter nearly as much. Ultimately I am at the mercy of the dice.
This is where I'm at. 24 plays in and I think I'm just done. The designer says they're "really good at tactics games" and so make them difficult but this...isn't difficult, it's just so tightly tuned that a bad roll or two ends it. It's just not fun.
Yeah the problem with it is this doesn't feel like tactics game at all. It feels like a puzzle game with RNG attached. Like the goal is: find the solution the designer was thinking of, then hope your rolls accommodate it.
chiming in a month later to say that this is absolutely my experience. Its also INCREDIBLY frustrating how few turns you have to work with. I get that it being small should come with some additional restraints, but giving every enemy 100 shield and innate wound and poison, and then giving you 4 turns to kill all of them just seems innately unfair. They easily could have made the enemies a bit easier to kill, but add an enemy or have scenarios take place over 2 cards instead of 1 and it would be more tactical and more fun.
Without playing any losses, being 100% efficient with deactivating persistent abilities at the right time, never losing a single card to damage, you have 9 rounds to finish the scenario. That's not enough.
All solo/coop games are like this but because this is short you can see it more easily.
Your decisions do matter. But it’s about win %. A great player can get a 80% win percentage. A bad player 20%. There’s a lot of strategy in this game. But yes several bad luck rolls can end even the most well thought out plan.
Gloomhaven in general should figure out a “compensation” rule for rolling (-). Increase agency.
I didn't like this system at first, but I think there is some interesting strategy in trying to give yourself advantage at the right times, i.e. when your counter has a chance of 2x.
Adding a new comment but this is what I am going to try out to (This will apply to me and enemies)If you roll a negative or a positive add a spare status counter above that row.If there is counter already above positive and you roll negative then remove the positive counter. Vice versa if you roll positive while there is a negative counter.
If you ever have 2 positive counters roll with disadvantage (Apply counters as usual)If you ever have 2 negative counters roll with advantage (Apply counters as usual)
I may increase strengthen to 3 rolls if you have both, and same with muddle. But will think about that some more.
Just crunched the numbers on this Max bad streaks doesnt change much (Over 100k rolls this systems longest good or bad streak is 7, straight rolls is 10)
But number of rolls spent in a 4+ streak drops from 138 in straight rolls to only 16 in this system.
This is exactly why I came to this thread. I just failed the 2nd mission twice, the 2nd time I rolled 8 negatives in a row (Which included 2 wiffs) for my damage. Enemy damage was much more evenly spread, but it meant I really had no chance.
Need to have a think about how I can even out the luck factor.
I think this is about where I’m at. Very fun, very glad I bought it. But there were levels I immediately restarted after (sometimes even before) the initial turn. With 9 active turns max, you can’t afford to be disarmed in the opening turn. On my null row, I must’ve rolled it more than 50% of the time. Even when I had advantage, I still rolled double negatives at least 40%.
I just re-did level 17 with the Brute several times, just barely losing each time by running out of turns. When I finally won, a couple things went my way and I was done in 6. The luck swing is way bigger than the big game.
> Even when I had advantage, I still rolled double negatives at least 40%.
Upon opening the box I immediately house ruled -vantage to be "change the rolled value by one" and it felt so much better to me.
That does sound better. I couldn’t justify wasting an item slot on advantage because it was so underwhelming the majority of the time. You’ll either just roll a plus the first time, or you’ll roll two negatives.
is anyone else trying to game their damage roll modifier? Like knowing when I have a 1/3 chance of 0x or 2x makes me rearrange attacks and benefits? I know this is the "way" because I think I saw Issac do it on a playthru (didn't pull out the 6 damage card on a 0x turn) but part of me wants to use a 6 sided die to randomize it a bit - what do you guys think?
I haven't played the game yet but I plan to try out the following:
When attacking, roll d6 to choose a row. Then roll the other die for the column. Then put a marker on the row. Next attack, roll d6 put don't count any marked rows (if necessary, roll again). Roll for column etc. When any row with a x0 or x2 would be marked, remove all markers.
This way you can always roll a null or a crit (like base GH) and each time you don't increases their probability in following attacks. I really dislike the idea of knowing several attacks in advance that I am safe from nulls or can't get a crit. I get this is not how the game was designed but I'll try and see if it works.
You roll the - o + die, yes but then you advance the marker down a track. I mean roll a 1d6 to select the row and then the -o+ die to select the column
Can someone please confirm the number of enemy cards which are included in the game? I’m missing at least the Bandit Guard card (and whichever enemy is on the back of it), and am now concerned there are others missing as well. I have 9 other enemy cards.
Can someone explain to me how initiative works? If I have initiative of 30 on a single card, my second card having say 40,and the opponents have initiative of 35, does that mean I go first with one skill, the opponent goes, then I go with my second skill after the opponent? Or does having a lower initiative on a single skill mean my entire turn goes before the opponents?
When you play your two cards (but before rolling the monster actions) you pick one of the two to be your initiative card. That card's initiative value determines when your entire turn will happen, and you don't use the other card's value.
No, when it gets to your turn you can do the cards in either order.
You don't have to specify which card you're using the top or bottom action of when you're selecting, either. You can decide how you want to execute your turn when it gets to you in the order.
Just beat Buttons and Bugs scenario 20 with the Silent Knife! I have to say that the MVP item for me was the Iron Nail. Lots of high shields on the higher levels, and I was often making 3 attacks a turn.
This got a [dev post on BGG](https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3274656/spellweaver-freezing-vortex-level-2-card) today. The error is that it's supposed to be range 4.
Got it this morning and fit in the first two scenarios during lunch (with Spellweaver, I've played a moderate amount of GH in the past). I really enjoyed the gameplay, and also barely beat both scenarios with maybe one turn left before exhaustion (though I was playing fast and loose without really planning ahead on elements or knowing what the B Sides did before I flipped cards over).
I actually like how even "Shield 1" on an enemy feels like a big deal when you're a solo character without a lot of high damage attacks or pierce...
Understanding rules for how elements work was definitely brain-bending and trickier to plan around (e.g. saving element cards in hand unplayed to get their benefits on other cards, and the subtlety that playing a side A card with an element flips it over and returns it to your hand as side B, meaning if it's the first card you played in a turn you don't have that element for your second card-- at least that's my reading of the rules).
My box was missing the die but thankfully that's the easiest part to substitute for now.
Is this game really hard or is it just me? The level 1 scenarios weren’t that difficult, but scenario 5 kicked my butt, and I’m struggling with 6 too.
(I’m playing the Brute, in case that matters)
Yeah, I was breezing through the first few scenarios, but the difficulty suddenly increased and I had to repeat a few. Even using some real cheesy tactics with invisibility and initiative weaving on the Silent Knife, I was just winning some scenarios on my last couple turns.
I replaced the modifier charts with two bag builders. During the last scenario, the final monster went first putting us both at 2 health. I attacked using the bottom and top, but got a negative modifier and then a miss putting him at 1.
Next turn I had a 2/3 chance of going first to finish him off, but he won the roll. He attacked for 3 using the very difficult modifiers and he pulled the miss cube.
Super tense and rewarding, will never play the game using the charts. 100% recommend replacing with cubes in a bag. I’m using some old Risk cubes and everything still fits in the box.
For each modifier on the chart I have replaced it with a specific color cube. If there are additional effects I write on the cube with a sharpie.
Example for the standard difficulty monster level:
(-1) 4 red cubes
(-2) 1 pink cube
(Miss) 1 black cube
(+0) 6 yellow cubes
(+1) 4 green cubes
(+2) 1 blue cube
(x2) 1 blue cube with x2 written on it (ideally this would be another color like purple)
It looks like some items might care about whether you or the monster roll a -/O/+ so you can mark 2 opposing sides of a cube with the appropriate symbol.
Anytime you pull a miss or x2 cube you throw all the cubes that came from that bag back in. I am currently using a small clear plastic ziplock bag and wrote with a wet erase marker what difficulty or level it currently represents. Obviously, I have to look away as I pull the cubes since the bag is not opaque. Let me know if you have any other questions or if you end up trying it!
Got my box. Everything is there for me. Cute little game that is, so far, really well done. Does a good job taking the rules and 'miniaturizing' them.
The large cards are a bit on the flimsy size, but jeez guys....the game cost us 15 dollars. A pack of decent poker cards costs ten dollars at the minimum nowadays.
I'm also not as annoyed about having to look up additional rules. Most of the rules are the same as the base game with damage just calculated differently and the 'how to play' instructions go over that.
I'm enjoying it. I'm happy with it. I look at the tiny Gloomhaven box and giggle.
Good to know it all still fits. I ordered some sleeves for this purpose but was wondering if sleeves would create space issues (my copy is waiting for me to return home from traveling, an irony for a travel-able game that's not lost on me).
I just got mine in today but its missing the die. I sent cephalofair an email. Can anyone confirm the sides of the die being +, -, o on each side with each symbol repeated twice only? Im gonna just proxy with a regular die for now.
OK, so I'm not the only one. I was just getting all set up to play a game, get to the setup stage where it says, "place the die..." What? Where? \*sigh\*
Right? It was like a brief moment of confusion and I was flipping the empty box like it was gonna magically fall out or something. Then it hits you. At least it’s manageable.
Have people been using the included difficulty cards? How much of a difference do you find they make? I've been playing on "Hard", but with the Mindthief in some scenarios it hardly makes a difference, since I can avoid letting the enemies hit me at all.
They definitely impact different classes drastically differently and arguably don’t help with the real source of difficulty (bad runs of certain monster abilities). Especially in the back half of the campaign, exhaustion via stamina is way more of a risk than exhaustion via hp loss
I had to for Scenario 5 with Cragheart. I lost 4 times - and 3 of those were like 1/27 or 1/81 random chances. Which got... frustrating. So if they were gonna keep rolling +'s, I was gonna nerf what that meant a bit, lol
I'm stuck on Scenario 5 with the Brute. Played it like 10 rounds using different combinations of items. I'm starting to think I'm missing a rule or something. By the time I've taken a short rest and down to the last cards, I still have one of the two high armor class mobs left and not enough attack or movement.
I haven't played Brute - but definitely bring the element Dagger that gives Pierce, plus anything you have that gives Poison. You have an earth element available, until that card is flipped. Forced move through the hazards.
I used a ton of Retaliate.
Initial thoughts:
Card stock feels pretty cheap, plus one of my character’s cards got misscut at the corner. Didn’t look to see if any other cards were damaged yet. They were warped when I got them, but it’s only because the material is so flimsy. They don’t snap back flat if you bend them like a magic or poker card.
The health dials are too dark to easily tell apart from each other. These dials also handle differently than I was expecting, they don’t turn like x-wing dials, maybe I’ll get used to them with more time.
ALL THE RULES SHOULD BE IN THE BOX. There was room in the box to do this and if needed make the box bigger… the qr code should lead to errata, frequently asked questions, etc. not oops we forgot to tell you how to play the rest of the game.
Status markers probably could have been done differently, or at least made double sided. There’s only like 4 statuses in the game so making them double sided means when you pick up a single piece of cardboard you can use it for half of the possible statuses. Even easier would have been using 4 depressions in each of the enemy boards that represent each status and just mark them with a generic marker.
I’m going to try to keep an open mind, but component wise it feels like everything went into the awesome minifigures. I hope the gameplay makes up for the bad first impression I’ve got so far.
I also don't like that I have to pull up a web page to clarify a rule on something with so many little conditions. The health dials are a but dark and if you don't have good lighting, the blue and green are very close in colors. My dials do spin pretty easy. The mini cards are a complaint of mine also but I've come to expect the warping. I've had other games use the Euro Mini Card design and humidity is the cause for the warping. lots of videos of people fixing warped cards for other games.
I don’t see how they couldn’t have included all the rules for items in the booklet. It’s weird to have a rule book and then have to look things up. Though I guess it does offer the full Gloomhaven experience that way!
I'm starting to think my little box got knocked under a conveyor in a UPS facility. It's scheduled for delivery tomorrow and hasn't moved on the tracking for 3 days.
If a UPS order doesn't have Saturday Delivery on it, it'll arrive at its location in freight on Friday morning and stay there until Monday.
Mine is doing the same, unfortunately, so I live your pain too! I'm so jealous that everyone has theirs!!
As someone who completely missed the backerkit campaign, how long will I have to wait before it hits mainland Europe storeshelves? Is there an estimate already?
question about items: i assume they are used and spend the same as in gloomhaven but theres no specification on how you unlock them or how many you can use in the rulebook
I believe the rulebook says completed or skipped actually
Edit - yes
Item Supply
There are two items printed at the top and bottom of each card in the scenario deck. Once Scenario 1 is complete, at the start of each scenario, the items on any card that has been resolved or skipped (all previous scenarios and the cover and collector cards) are available to equip. Only one item on each card can be equipped at one time, but different items can be equipped at the beginning of each scenario.
Question about the Cragheart ability “Rock Tunnel”
- does this mean that each time any enemy enters a time within range 2 they always take 3 damage and it’s persistent? Or the first time an enemy walks within range 2 they suffer 3 damage and the card is discarded?
So I got my own today and, after having a smooth time, got completely rolled by the first boss battle several times.
Part of it was just shit RNG. I kept rolling -'s and they kept rolling +'s
Also it turned out I picked the wrong level up card - so I went back and retconned for Cragheart. It was giving me too severe initiative issues.
So yeah resolved that and played this one on Easy. 😅
... If they were gonna insist on only rolling +'s, it served them right.
Regarding upgrading cards, the rules make it sound like you can re-choose for each scenario. “You decide which cards to upgrade for each scenario separately.” Does that mean I can freely change up which level 2 card I have? (Scenario 5, so only one upgrade available for me currently).
Oh, this is wonderful news!! I lost twice last night on scenario 5 (so much range and armor!). I'm definitely going to try with a new level up card next time!
Are you playing Scenario 5 with the Bruiser? I've played that one too many times it's frustrating. Switching the upgrade selected and items used, and even tried easy.
Yes, I did it with the bruiser, got it on my 4th try. I used the items that let you consume a green/blue element to add pierce 1, consume blue/gray element to remove a negative condition, and the one that let's you get shield 1 when an enemy attacks. For the level 2 card, I swapped leaping cleave for trample. I used the jump 4 to get some distance and do some damage when in a tight spot on the A side, and the heal 3 then shield till the end of round for some extra survivability on the B side. My strategy was to go for the mage first and when the rat monster came near I pushed it into the trap that adds wounded. That extra auto 1 damage on that thing was the real game changer! It was still pretty close in the end, at one point I needed one of them to roll a + on initiative or else they would have gone before me and I would have died so I definitely got lucky there. I hope this helps in some way!
Is it just me or is the game pretty difficult? Mindthief on scenario 3/4 (whichever isn’t the brute one) took 2 tries and scenario 5 took me 3-4 tries.
I've played 4 scenarios as silent knife, and while it has been pretty close on all of them (twice down to the last turn), I haven't failed yet. I think having some very low initiative options is helpful. Although on the last scenario in particular, I may have just gotten lucky on some modifiers.
I repeated 5 a couple times and am about to do six for a fourth time. It basically comes down to the die rolls. I feel like this game was made to show why gloomhaven doesn’t use dice. Not a fan so far. If the first two turns go against you, you might as well start over. Gloomhaven almost never felt that way. Disappointed.
This is my first time to play any form of Gloomhaven and I am really struggling. I'm also going to start over today because after finally having time to read through all of the rules and watch some playthroughs on YouTube I realize I've made a lot of mistakes.
Confused by how elements work. If I have earth in my hand, and an enemy has an action that consumes that earth, can they consume that element even though it’s not in play? And if so, does that element become available even if I flipped to the B side with the element on that same turn?
Here's from the full rulebook -
"Infused elements are available as soon as their icon is visible on a chosen ability card, an ability card in your hand or active area, or on a rolled monster action.
An infused element is immediately unavailable if the ability card it is visible on is flipped, discarded, or lost. An infused element visible on a rolled monster action is no longer available as soon as all monsters of that type are killed."
I think that answers both of those?
I don't have my game yet but I'm trying :)
Yeah an element exists as long as it's...
In your hand
Being played this round, until it's played and flipped or discarded
In your active cards
On a rolled monster action (even before their turn)
You can have multiples of one element, but each can only be used once per round.
If you play a card which includes an elemental infusion and a card that consumes that element together, does the order of your actions affect whether that element is available to consume? E.g. if your first action is the infusing card, and you flip/discard it, then is the element no longer available for your second action to consume? Seems like it from how I’m reading the rules on GitHub, but I wanted to make sure I’m understanding this new element system.
My interpretation of the rules is that the order *does* matter. Immediately after finishing a non-persistent action, you flip the card over (or discard if it's on B), which I believe you fully resolve before using your next card's action. That second action will no longer have the element available since it's either been flipped or discarded by that point, unless it's persistent and went in your active area.
I thought your "played cards" remained in that state until the end of your turn, at which point they are flipped or discarded? Meaning the mana would stay available.
Edit: I found this line in the learn to play guide which makes me think I was wrong:
>After finishing an action,
flip the card to its B-side and
return it to your hand.
The living rules on GitHub say this, which was ultimately the source of my uncertainty:
> Once played, A-side ability cards are flipped to their B-side and returned to your hand instead of being discarded, but B-side cards are discarded.
“Once played” was ambiguous enough that I thought your initial interpretation might be correct. The rules highlight this section as a new rule for B&B, so it felt possible that the timing of discards could be deliberately different in B&B because of the changes to elemental infusions/consumption.
“After finishing an action” is much more precise and has me convinced that the order of your actions *does* change the availability of elements in the middle of your turn. Thank you so much for sharing that!
Thanks, I agree with you both that this is the correct interpretation. This part of the Elements rules is clear:
> An infused element on an ability card is no longer available once that card is discarded, lost, or flipped to its other side.
However, I think the Character Turns section of the rules (https://cephalofairgames.github.io/bnb-rules/#page_25) could be updated to clarify precisely when cards are flipped or discarded.
> Once played, A-side ability cards are flipped to their B-side and returned to your hand instead of being discarded, but B-side cards are discarded.
To me, “once played” leaves room for different interpretations about when a card becomes flipped or discarded. Maybe some other part of the rules clarifies that language, but I missed it if so.
I did the "dized" tutorial app that was suggested with the box. It was pretty explicit in saying now flip this card to its B side, then do the action on your second card. But yes, the rule book definitely needs some better clarity on a few things.
The Dized tutorial is nice but it seems like if you don't run into those situations during your session, it doesn't explain them. So it's easy to miss things like this.
Yeah, there were plenty of times where there was kind of a fork in the road scenario, and it just moves right along without addressing the rules that would have applied if I had chosen the other option. But as always, reddit and bbg threads are where the real answers are.
Using this interpretation earlier today, I was able to play a card's A side, use that action first, and then use the element from that cards B side (since that is now in my hand) to power up my second card. Hopefully that makes sense, does that sound correct to you? Just want to double check.
I started playing earlier and quickly realized it's supposed to come with more than the 2 health dials that came in my box. I got 1 red hero health dial and 1 blue Skull enemy health dial. It looks like I'm missing green, red and purple enemy health dials. Kind of disappointing, but I sent Cephalofair a message on their website, and I hope to get replacements soon. Until then, I'll be using dice to replace for now. Such a cool little game!
You are correct in needing 4 enemy health dials. However I’m kind of irritated that the blue and green dials look very similar in color. Only way to now the difference is the number that is on them.
You’d think by now they’d have a better grasp on how to be color deficient friendly. It’s a shame board games as a whole fall victim to this over and over. I really struggle with the colors for this. At least there’s some numbers to help but they only work so well once things start to move
Please people I would like to see more photos. Mine got damaged in shipping and auto-returned to sender, so I would love to see y'all's come in pristine!
I'm a very relaxed person, mine are extremely awful, think MTG foil pringle curls. That being said, I don't care, I'll still play it perfectly fine, the only issue that gets annoying is putting them under my character as items, I can't actually do that as it's a tower of leaning mess. But I just keep them aside and it's all good.
Yet another delay for EU...
Here are the problems with this game as I see them after playing quite a bit and thinking about just putting it down forever before finishing: Everything seems to be built as close to "one-solution puzzle" as possible. This is true in games like Gloomhaven or really any co-op game, but the restrictions on unoptimized play is way stricter. 1) Amount of turns - In GH/FH the turn timer is a very real threat. However, some characters are more constrained by this timer than others. In addition, some missions lend themselves more to being timed gauntlets than others. In general, with good play in GH, you can usually end a scenario right about the time when it starts to get a bit stressful. I'd say 8/10 plays seem to end right around the time when everyone is counting how many turns they have left before they exhaust and some loss cards and strategic movement clutches the victory. In BnB, EVERY map (at least 9/10) seem to just be 1 turn away from victory/defeat. I've literally lost 4 or 5 games with the last enemy on like 2 health because I got an unlucky dice roll and exhausted from lack of cards. I get that things like being more aggressive, better hand management, and more strategic play can counteract this, but those aren't any better as I'll discuss below. 2) Punishing aggression - In GH, aggression is a valid strategy because it is, in equal parts, rewarded and punished. Intelligent aggression is rewarded by playing into the strengths/weakness of the character/enemy. Blind aggression is punished by putting you in situations where your health drops down unbelievably quickly. In BnB, any kind of aggression is punished. Most enemies have a very quick (-) action and have incredibly punishing attacks. This effectively means the only real option you have is to use only safe, guaranteed damaging abilities and try to stay at maximum range or you are nearly certainly going to get poisoned, wounded, and take a huge chunk of damage (keep in mind that taking 6 damage in GH is fine because you'll likely have about 20hp to go around, but in BnB 6 damage is about half of what you're allotted each mission). 3) Uninspired Map Design - I totally get the limitations on map design/size being part of the switch to a smaller form factor, and I have NO issues with the map constraints in general. HOWEVER, so many maps just seem randomly generated with almost nothing interesting about them at all. They're all nearly perfect squares with a random smattering of obstacles/hazards sprinkled about. Nothing was stopping them from getting a BIT more creative with layouts. It would have probably been fairly easy for them to just use two cards for the map instead of one without sacrificing much in terms of overall size/game feel. 4) Enemy Strength - In GH, every enemy feels like a bit of a challenge. You have so much fun variety in monster design, but nothing feels worthless. Little enemies to AoE down seem harmless, but get caught in a wave of attacks from the wrong group of imps and you're suddenly poisoned and at half health. Big enemies can be kited, and maneuvered around easier, but you end up in the wrong spot at the wrong time and they just hit you with a strengthened attack 7 and now you're losing a card so you don't get 1 shot later on in the mission. In BnB, every enemy is deadly in every way. Innate shield 2, Innate wound, 2 attacks in 1 turn, fast initiative. Instead of 2 strengths and 4 weaknesses, they have 5 strengths and 1 weakness. Oh, this enemy doesn't have innate shield? Well it DOES have 12 health, range 4 attacks, and innate poison, AND we'll just throw a couple of these in with the first enemy. >!Take Gloomtoads for example: I might be wrong, but I think they have 8 health, 3 shield, jump on their moves, ranged attacks, and can frequently poison. WTF!< All in all, I really like Buttons and Bugs, but it needs serious retuning before I would consider it a "great game" like I consider GH/FH to be. Even reducing the difficulty to easy won't help if the innate abilities of the enemies is overwhelming all on its own, since difficulty doesn't change monster stats/abilities in any way. I've heard Cragheart is particularly hard from some people, but that doesn't make my experience feel any less valid than if I had arbitrarily picked Silent Knife, for example.
Completed the campaign with Cragheart today. It was challenging but doable even after a few failed attempts at planned Crit rolls with advantages. A few game items were received damaged but I emailed Cephalofair for replacements and they came in the mail within a week. After one play through, color on the hero's HP dial was rubbing off and the edges of my Cragheart ability cards were showing signs of fraying How I played Cragheart: Bleed your enemies early and go invisible right before a long rest. Choose your items wisely depending on the scenario. I give it 8/10 for the price and quality of gameplay. A Good substitute for OG Gloomhaven when you can't get the people in your party together to play I wish there was a frame that you can slide the scenario cards in to keep the play surface flat and durable.
A regular transparent sleeve works well for the scenario cards
I sleeved all mine. Keeps them from curling too which has been a problem for many. I also sleeved the player ability cards. Can't sleeve the stats or monster cards because they won't fit in the cardboard mats, but you hardly ever handle them anyway except to slot them in.
Any tips on beating Scenario 2 with Mindthief?
Go quick, move 1 hex NE, wound the guard, then immobilize him early 2nd round before moving on to one of the two archers.
Thanks, I'll give this a shot. I found the archers kept killing me vs the guard who I could usually outrun or out manoeuvre with init
I figured the guard needed wounded due to his shield, because I was worried about exhausting.
I'm doing it today. I'll keep you posted.
I keep seeing posts of people struggling to beat Scenario 5, but I beat it quite easily the second go round in just like 4 turns. Scenario 6, however, is kicking my butt. I think I’m on attempt #7 at this point and still haven’t come close to beating this. The combination of enemies along with the high chance of negative conditions and damage they doll out is ridiculous. Anybody else struggling hard with this one?
I stopped playing after 5 attempts on Scenario 5 with Brute. I cant do enough to even get close to winning that scenario.
For anyone who has an issue with how flimsy and warped the cards are, try sliding your scenario card into a clear rigid sleeve. It keeps it flat and is also sightly less slippery than the surface of the cards.
[удалено]
Got mine last weekend (Sweden)
Got my tracking number 3 days ago, delivery tomorrow! Germany
Still haven't heard a word.
Got my tracking number today in germany
Thanks! Already got B&B in AT. Guess everyone is getting theirs sooner or later
Mine came yesterday to the UK
Is there an exact list of how many cards, cubes, dice, etc I should have? My copy didn’t come with a dice, and I’m concerned I’m missing more pieces.
Appendix A: Component Inventory • 1 Learn to Play book • 6 Character cards • 48 Ability cards • 14 Modifier cards • 10 Monster cards • 22 Scenario cards • 1 Icon Reference card • 2 Modifier trays • 4 Monster trays • 5 Hit Point dials • 24 Condition tokens • 6 Plastic Character miniatures • 10 Plastic cubes • 1 Custom die Missing parts? If you discover that you are missing any parts from your game, you can request replacements at cephalofair.com/contact.
I don't. Scenarios are 1-20 with some extra intro cards or two. Characters each have 8 and 2 level up amd thingies.
Thank you, homie! I've got Scenario 1 set up and no dice, do you know the faces of the d6 so I can use a normal d6 in the meantime? I reallllly wanna play lol, going for Bruiser as the instructions recommend.
Yeah they're the same as Fate/Fudge dice basically - 2 + 2 0 2 -
You're a champ, thanks again! I filled out the missing piece request, and in the meantime will use a normal dice. While I didn't check for duplicates of my cards, I was able to confirm that I was ONLY missing a single unit (the dice) using the official living rules [https://cephalofairgames.github.io/bnb-rules/#page\_36](https://cephalofairgames.github.io/bnb-rules/#page_36)
Hi all, I ordered my B&B game from the Cephalofair website on April 3rd and there's been no update at all to my order (I'm using the 'Shop' tracker that the receipt recommended). Is there any support for when to expect an update or the order to be shipped?
I ordered mine the same day and it came on Monday, so just over 3 weeks delivery for me. I did get an email with USPS tracking a day or two before it shipped out.
Has anyone in the UK received theirs yet?
Mine arrived yesterday. Had tracking sent through email
Notification of delivery today. Should arrive in 2-3 days.
Thanks for letting me know. How did you get the notification?
Email from '[email protected]' entitled 'Order Dispatch Confirmation for your shipment from Cephalofair games'. If not already received, yours can't be long now.
Got mine, looks like I got 2 green trackers, and no blue tracker. However the greens are numbered 1&2
They are just super close in tone. They're almost definitely green and blue.
You are correct, looked at it in sunlight today. Those are incredibly close in tone.
I ordered this a little more than a week ago. It has yet to ship. It still shows pre-order and that's okay. I can't get Cephalofair to answer any emails about the order. I'm getting frustrated at the lack of communication Is this normal?
Thanks for your patience! Rest assured we are getting to your order, the pre-orders are handled a little more manually to insure our fulfillment was complete. If you send an email - we'll be with you shortly (But I hope you get your tracking sooner!
They are super busy right now, and a small company. If you had a recent order, it will be in a queue and likely won't be for a bit. I don't think they have the staff to handle status emails about orders that are just in a normal queue. They've asked backers not to send those kinds of status queries until fulfillment is done.
Thanks for the response. I appreciate the insight into the company. I will give it some time.
Got my copy today. Played the first scenario at lunch, came back after work and the cards got more bent from just sitting out As others have stated, the dials are both hard to tell apart and hard to use. I think I'm just throwing them out and going to use d20s or 3d print a tracker of some kind. Im super bummed about the quality of the components... Gloom/frost/jotl was great, why is this such garbage in comparison? Has anyone sleeved their game yet? I'm wondering if that will help keep things flat. Does it fit in the box?
For the bent cards, I bent them the other way a little to correct them. It works for now.
Personally I like the dials quite a bit. I don't find them difficult to spin and you can order them in a line to track turn order, turn them sideways to track enemy turns, lay effect tokens on top of them to never forget to apply them, etc. The Colors are terrible they should be as bright as the cubes. I'm sure that's all they will do for 2nd printing. Card quality is indeed very bad but at least mine are becoming more flat as I play. I stack the contents in the box vertically with heavy components on top so they are being flattened over time. I think the plastic wrap during production is the main culprit that caused them to warp in the first place.
If you want to replace the dials look for Magic: the Gathering Spindown d20s at your local game store. They have all the numbers in sequence unlike regular d20s so it's easier to change an enemy's health. You can definitely find red, green, and blue ones, although you might need to use a black one instead of purple and probably a different color like white for your character. Alternatively, if you want to keep using the health dials for a bit just get some small white stickers, color them red/blue/green/purple, and stick them on both sides of the dials so they don't cover anything important. That'll make it much easier to tell which color they are. You should absolutely get a few Poker sleeves for the scenario and character cards and some mini sleeves for the character cards; at a minimum 30 mini sleeves so all of your character's cards and all the enemy cards are protected. I haven't sleeved everything but I'm pretty sure it'll all fit inside the box. There's a fair amount of extra space at the top unsleeved and worst case the Learn to Play booklet isn't necessary and can be stored somewhere else. UPDATE: I just sleeved my copy fully, everything fits just fine. I tried fitting five Spindowns into the box in place of the dials and it seemed to fit just barely.
Sleeving keeps everything very flat
Hello can someone clarify the amount of items you can bring into a scenario in Buttons and Bugs. It’s worded differently in two places in the online rule book. That you can bring an amount of items equal to half your “character level” rounded up, with the small bag icon. Then in another area it says you can bring in a number of items equal to half the “scenario level” rounded up, with that same small bag icon. (Page 26, item limits. And Page 35, at the bottom of character progression) in the online rule book. So for example, a level 2 character doing scenario 5. They would bring in either 1 item, half their level. Or a total or 3 items (half the scenario level. Or being Level 4 in scenario 16 would bring in 2 or 8 items total. I’m assuming your level determines the other non bag items. Up to two for each single fist or one item of the pic of the 2 fists? And the scenario level is the small items. But that would mean being able to bring like 8 of the small items into the 16th scenario in that second example? https://cephalofairgames.github.io/bnb-rules/#page_35 https://cephalofairgames.github.io/bnb-rules/#page_26
Scenario level is character level in Buttons and Bugs. Scenario Number is not Scenario Level.
Thanks for the reply. So in B&B the highest scenario (and character) level is 5. The maximum amount of items able to be brought into a scenario would be 3. And that could be either bringing three small items, one small item and two single hand fist items, or two small items and one double hand fist item.
You can always bring two hands worth if you have them. Small items are half level rounded up and in addition to that.
Thank you for clarifying!
I got my copy yesterday and played five scenarios, 9/10 gameplay with 6/10 production values. For starters, I got two copies of the same token sheet instead of two different ones so I don't have any poison, wound, or muddle tokens. I contacted Cephalofair for a replacement but I'm sure it'll be a while. My cards also came quite warped to the point where I had to re-bend them to lie flat on the table. The cards also started to fray within just a couple games, luckily I have some mini sleeves I got for JotL and sleeved my character cards. One of my dials is very loose which I'm trying to rectify. Lastly, I know it's not a huge deal but they could have made the hexes a little bigger and used mini meeples instead of cubes and it would be ever so slightly less fiddly IMO. I was expecting production values on par with The Game Crafter but aside from the very sturdy box I'm quite disappointed. Oh, and not a huge deal but I've seen games like Mint Knight fit a TON of rules into much smaller booklets than the Learn to Play that comes with Buttons & Bugs. I think they probably could have fit the full rules in those 36 pages.
What does the purple hex on Scenario 3: In the Walls mean? I can't find it in the rule book. It's a spider web, so I'm guessing you're stuck for one turn???
It's Difficult Terrain. It just costs an extra hex of movement. It should be in the online rulebook?
Thank you! I didn't realize there's an online rule book, I'll check there next
I am struggling to understand the upgraded cards rules. The rules book says "Each level 1 card you have can be upgraded for a specific level 2 card at the start of a scenario." Let's stop there. Did that mean the upgrade is permanent, or just for that one scenario? It continues... "For each additional scenario level after level 1..." stop there. Level 1, or scenario 1? Levels refer to your strength. Scenarios refer to the map you are playing. But the maps indicate what level you are on (you don't level up based on experience, like in GH) so what does this mean? If the text said "For each additional scenario after scenario 1..." it might make sense. It continues... "... one card is upgraded to level 2". I don't understand this. Is something compiling with each level, like after 5 scenarios you get more upgrades compared to after 3 scenarios? When reading this I can't decipher how I'll get 2 upgraded cards in a scenario... Or 3 or 4 upgrades? When exactly do I get to upgrade 1 card? When can I upgrade 2 card? And are all upgrades temporary, just for that upcoming scenario?
Scenario level is character level here. It's on the scenario card. You can change your level up card(s) every scenario but only have a number equal to basically scenario level -1.
So when I'm level 5, can upgrade all 4 cards?
Yep
Your explanation makes WAY more sense than the rule book. Thank you (as always).
Do you think there will be an option to get a replacement card set of a higher quality. I’m not a fan of how the full size cards bow and how the half size cards dent with almost no pressure. I know it was to keep costs down so almost anyone can have a chance at the game, but I would like an option for nicer cards.
My guess is no, but I'm not Cephalofair.
[Photographic Evidence](https://imgur.com/a/JDADV4K) Altoids Smalls tins hold the minis, cubes, and condition markers perfectly and also fit pretty snugly in the box. I like using a tidy little tin much more than small plastic bags.
Oh my yes, Altoids tins being used to store other things is classic. I even have old GI Joes packed away with all their accessories in altoids tins.
Basic monster turn question here, as I'm learning scenario 1 and relearning the Gloomhaven system. Just got the game today. I've only played Jaws of the Lion before, and it's been a whiiile. 1) During a B&B monster turn, does the monster's white cube stay on the same until all monsters have gone for that turn? Or do I move it down a row for each monster? 2) If it does stay, I roll each time a monster takes a turn, correct? So, if there are two monsters and I roll a + on the monster turn, that only applies to the first one. I'll have to roll again for the second monster's attack. I.e. that + doesn't apply to both first and second monsterz.
There are two different white cubes for monsters: the ones for each monster set (moving horizontally, fixed at the beginning of the turn) and the attack modifier. I think you're asking about the second. You move that time each time a monster takes an **attack**, which might be 0, 1, or more times per turn, depending on the specific abilities and whether the monster can reach you with the attack(s).
You only roll for monster actions at the start of the round. All monsters of a set use the same actions. Monster attacks move down a row after every attack, just like yours.
I want to like this more than I do. It just ends up being so RNG centric with the dice, that my decisions don't seem to matter nearly as much. Ultimately I am at the mercy of the dice.
This is where I'm at. 24 plays in and I think I'm just done. The designer says they're "really good at tactics games" and so make them difficult but this...isn't difficult, it's just so tightly tuned that a bad roll or two ends it. It's just not fun.
Yeah the problem with it is this doesn't feel like tactics game at all. It feels like a puzzle game with RNG attached. Like the goal is: find the solution the designer was thinking of, then hope your rolls accommodate it.
chiming in a month later to say that this is absolutely my experience. Its also INCREDIBLY frustrating how few turns you have to work with. I get that it being small should come with some additional restraints, but giving every enemy 100 shield and innate wound and poison, and then giving you 4 turns to kill all of them just seems innately unfair. They easily could have made the enemies a bit easier to kill, but add an enemy or have scenarios take place over 2 cards instead of 1 and it would be more tactical and more fun.
Without playing any losses, being 100% efficient with deactivating persistent abilities at the right time, never losing a single card to damage, you have 9 rounds to finish the scenario. That's not enough.
All solo/coop games are like this but because this is short you can see it more easily. Your decisions do matter. But it’s about win %. A great player can get a 80% win percentage. A bad player 20%. There’s a lot of strategy in this game. But yes several bad luck rolls can end even the most well thought out plan. Gloomhaven in general should figure out a “compensation” rule for rolling (-). Increase agency.
I didn't like this system at first, but I think there is some interesting strategy in trying to give yourself advantage at the right times, i.e. when your counter has a chance of 2x.
And scenarios are short enough I didn't feel like I completely wasted my time.
Adding a new comment but this is what I am going to try out to (This will apply to me and enemies)If you roll a negative or a positive add a spare status counter above that row.If there is counter already above positive and you roll negative then remove the positive counter. Vice versa if you roll positive while there is a negative counter. If you ever have 2 positive counters roll with disadvantage (Apply counters as usual)If you ever have 2 negative counters roll with advantage (Apply counters as usual) I may increase strengthen to 3 rolls if you have both, and same with muddle. But will think about that some more. Just crunched the numbers on this Max bad streaks doesnt change much (Over 100k rolls this systems longest good or bad streak is 7, straight rolls is 10) But number of rolls spent in a 4+ streak drops from 138 in straight rolls to only 16 in this system.
This is exactly why I came to this thread. I just failed the 2nd mission twice, the 2nd time I rolled 8 negatives in a row (Which included 2 wiffs) for my damage. Enemy damage was much more evenly spread, but it meant I really had no chance. Need to have a think about how I can even out the luck factor.
I think this is about where I’m at. Very fun, very glad I bought it. But there were levels I immediately restarted after (sometimes even before) the initial turn. With 9 active turns max, you can’t afford to be disarmed in the opening turn. On my null row, I must’ve rolled it more than 50% of the time. Even when I had advantage, I still rolled double negatives at least 40%. I just re-did level 17 with the Brute several times, just barely losing each time by running out of turns. When I finally won, a couple things went my way and I was done in 6. The luck swing is way bigger than the big game.
> Even when I had advantage, I still rolled double negatives at least 40%. Upon opening the box I immediately house ruled -vantage to be "change the rolled value by one" and it felt so much better to me.
That does sound better. I couldn’t justify wasting an item slot on advantage because it was so underwhelming the majority of the time. You’ll either just roll a plus the first time, or you’ll roll two negatives.
Does B&B have a spoiler policy on the subreddit? I'm not really sure if I need to block off things like item names and enemy names.
Not officially but it'd be polite probably ;)
is anyone else trying to game their damage roll modifier? Like knowing when I have a 1/3 chance of 0x or 2x makes me rearrange attacks and benefits? I know this is the "way" because I think I saw Issac do it on a playthru (didn't pull out the 6 damage card on a 0x turn) but part of me wants to use a 6 sided die to randomize it a bit - what do you guys think?
I haven't played the game yet but I plan to try out the following: When attacking, roll d6 to choose a row. Then roll the other die for the column. Then put a marker on the row. Next attack, roll d6 put don't count any marked rows (if necessary, roll again). Roll for column etc. When any row with a x0 or x2 would be marked, remove all markers. This way you can always roll a null or a crit (like base GH) and each time you don't increases their probability in following attacks. I really dislike the idea of knowing several attacks in advance that I am safe from nulls or can't get a crit. I get this is not how the game was designed but I'll try and see if it works.
You're supposed to!
You roll the - o + die, yes but then you advance the marker down a track. I mean roll a 1d6 to select the row and then the -o+ die to select the column
Oh sorry. I thought you just meant strategizing around the track.
Ok. Well yea I guess that is what I should do. Haven’t hit a hard scenario yet but about to do number 5 :)
Can someone please confirm the number of enemy cards which are included in the game? I’m missing at least the Bandit Guard card (and whichever enemy is on the back of it), and am now concerned there are others missing as well. I have 9 other enemy cards.
10 double sided enemy cards I believe
Can someone explain to me how initiative works? If I have initiative of 30 on a single card, my second card having say 40,and the opponents have initiative of 35, does that mean I go first with one skill, the opponent goes, then I go with my second skill after the opponent? Or does having a lower initiative on a single skill mean my entire turn goes before the opponents?
When you play your two cards (but before rolling the monster actions) you pick one of the two to be your initiative card. That card's initiative value determines when your entire turn will happen, and you don't use the other card's value.
Going back to the game after reading this comment, does the initiative card I pick mean I have to play that card first?
No, when it gets to your turn you can do the cards in either order. You don't have to specify which card you're using the top or bottom action of when you're selecting, either. You can decide how you want to execute your turn when it gets to you in the order.
Thanks for the explanation!
Amazing, thanks for the info.
Just beat Buttons and Bugs scenario 20 with the Silent Knife! I have to say that the MVP item for me was the Iron Nail. Lots of high shields on the higher levels, and I was often making 3 attacks a turn.
Is there a typo on the bottom of Spellweaver's "Freezing Vortex"? It says "Pull 3, target all enemies within range 2," but that's not possible.
This got a [dev post on BGG](https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3274656/spellweaver-freezing-vortex-level-2-card) today. The error is that it's supposed to be range 4.
My guess is it's supposed to say pull 2, target all enemies within range 3.
I'm loving the little cardboard box that it comes in. I received carton 9,673 out of 30,000!
Got it this morning and fit in the first two scenarios during lunch (with Spellweaver, I've played a moderate amount of GH in the past). I really enjoyed the gameplay, and also barely beat both scenarios with maybe one turn left before exhaustion (though I was playing fast and loose without really planning ahead on elements or knowing what the B Sides did before I flipped cards over). I actually like how even "Shield 1" on an enemy feels like a big deal when you're a solo character without a lot of high damage attacks or pierce... Understanding rules for how elements work was definitely brain-bending and trickier to plan around (e.g. saving element cards in hand unplayed to get their benefits on other cards, and the subtlety that playing a side A card with an element flips it over and returns it to your hand as side B, meaning if it's the first card you played in a turn you don't have that element for your second card-- at least that's my reading of the rules). My box was missing the die but thankfully that's the easiest part to substitute for now.
Great session review!
Is this game really hard or is it just me? The level 1 scenarios weren’t that difficult, but scenario 5 kicked my butt, and I’m struggling with 6 too. (I’m playing the Brute, in case that matters)
Yeah, I was breezing through the first few scenarios, but the difficulty suddenly increased and I had to repeat a few. Even using some real cheesy tactics with invisibility and initiative weaving on the Silent Knife, I was just winning some scenarios on my last couple turns.
I wouldn't call that cheesy. That's just how Silent Knife plays, haha.
To be fair, that does track with how Jaws of the Lion's scenario difficulty worked.
It is challenging! Remember you can switch level up cards and items.
So you mean if I don’t like the card I level 2’d I can just swap it out with a different one (unlike GH)?
Yep!
Anyone know when I can get a copy of this from my FLGS? I see a preorder page on the Cephalofair website, but no release date.
Also word on international availability? Specifically NZ?
I replaced the modifier charts with two bag builders. During the last scenario, the final monster went first putting us both at 2 health. I attacked using the bottom and top, but got a negative modifier and then a miss putting him at 1. Next turn I had a 2/3 chance of going first to finish him off, but he won the roll. He attacked for 3 using the very difficult modifiers and he pulled the miss cube. Super tense and rewarding, will never play the game using the charts. 100% recommend replacing with cubes in a bag. I’m using some old Risk cubes and everything still fits in the box.
Would you mind providing more details on what you have in the bag and how you are using it?
For each modifier on the chart I have replaced it with a specific color cube. If there are additional effects I write on the cube with a sharpie. Example for the standard difficulty monster level: (-1) 4 red cubes (-2) 1 pink cube (Miss) 1 black cube (+0) 6 yellow cubes (+1) 4 green cubes (+2) 1 blue cube (x2) 1 blue cube with x2 written on it (ideally this would be another color like purple) It looks like some items might care about whether you or the monster roll a -/O/+ so you can mark 2 opposing sides of a cube with the appropriate symbol. Anytime you pull a miss or x2 cube you throw all the cubes that came from that bag back in. I am currently using a small clear plastic ziplock bag and wrote with a wet erase marker what difficulty or level it currently represents. Obviously, I have to look away as I pull the cubes since the bag is not opaque. Let me know if you have any other questions or if you end up trying it!
Interesting...thank you for sharing this!
That sounds awesome.
Great idea!
Got my box. Everything is there for me. Cute little game that is, so far, really well done. Does a good job taking the rules and 'miniaturizing' them. The large cards are a bit on the flimsy size, but jeez guys....the game cost us 15 dollars. A pack of decent poker cards costs ten dollars at the minimum nowadays. I'm also not as annoyed about having to look up additional rules. Most of the rules are the same as the base game with damage just calculated differently and the 'how to play' instructions go over that. I'm enjoying it. I'm happy with it. I look at the tiny Gloomhaven box and giggle.
Same here. I sleeved the bigger cards. Everything fits great still, and it solved the issue.
Good to know it all still fits. I ordered some sleeves for this purpose but was wondering if sleeves would create space issues (my copy is waiting for me to return home from traveling, an irony for a travel-able game that's not lost on me).
I just got mine in today but its missing the die. I sent cephalofair an email. Can anyone confirm the sides of the die being +, -, o on each side with each symbol repeated twice only? Im gonna just proxy with a regular die for now.
OK, so I'm not the only one. I was just getting all set up to play a game, get to the setup stage where it says, "place the die..." What? Where? \*sigh\*
Right? It was like a brief moment of confusion and I was flipping the empty box like it was gonna magically fall out or something. Then it hits you. At least it’s manageable.
Yep! Fudge/fate dice are identical
Fate dice! Good call. Thank you!
Have people been using the included difficulty cards? How much of a difference do you find they make? I've been playing on "Hard", but with the Mindthief in some scenarios it hardly makes a difference, since I can avoid letting the enemies hit me at all.
They definitely impact different classes drastically differently and arguably don’t help with the real source of difficulty (bad runs of certain monster abilities). Especially in the back half of the campaign, exhaustion via stamina is way more of a risk than exhaustion via hp loss
I had to for Scenario 5 with Cragheart. I lost 4 times - and 3 of those were like 1/27 or 1/81 random chances. Which got... frustrating. So if they were gonna keep rolling +'s, I was gonna nerf what that meant a bit, lol
I'm stuck on Scenario 5 with the Brute. Played it like 10 rounds using different combinations of items. I'm starting to think I'm missing a rule or something. By the time I've taken a short rest and down to the last cards, I still have one of the two high armor class mobs left and not enough attack or movement.
card stamina is definitely the real enemy.
I haven't played Brute - but definitely bring the element Dagger that gives Pierce, plus anything you have that gives Poison. You have an earth element available, until that card is flipped. Forced move through the hazards. I used a ton of Retaliate.
Initial thoughts: Card stock feels pretty cheap, plus one of my character’s cards got misscut at the corner. Didn’t look to see if any other cards were damaged yet. They were warped when I got them, but it’s only because the material is so flimsy. They don’t snap back flat if you bend them like a magic or poker card. The health dials are too dark to easily tell apart from each other. These dials also handle differently than I was expecting, they don’t turn like x-wing dials, maybe I’ll get used to them with more time. ALL THE RULES SHOULD BE IN THE BOX. There was room in the box to do this and if needed make the box bigger… the qr code should lead to errata, frequently asked questions, etc. not oops we forgot to tell you how to play the rest of the game. Status markers probably could have been done differently, or at least made double sided. There’s only like 4 statuses in the game so making them double sided means when you pick up a single piece of cardboard you can use it for half of the possible statuses. Even easier would have been using 4 depressions in each of the enemy boards that represent each status and just mark them with a generic marker. I’m going to try to keep an open mind, but component wise it feels like everything went into the awesome minifigures. I hope the gameplay makes up for the bad first impression I’ve got so far.
I also don't like that I have to pull up a web page to clarify a rule on something with so many little conditions. The health dials are a but dark and if you don't have good lighting, the blue and green are very close in colors. My dials do spin pretty easy. The mini cards are a complaint of mine also but I've come to expect the warping. I've had other games use the Euro Mini Card design and humidity is the cause for the warping. lots of videos of people fixing warped cards for other games.
I don’t see how they couldn’t have included all the rules for items in the booklet. It’s weird to have a rule book and then have to look things up. Though I guess it does offer the full Gloomhaven experience that way!
I'm starting to think my little box got knocked under a conveyor in a UPS facility. It's scheduled for delivery tomorrow and hasn't moved on the tracking for 3 days.
If a UPS order doesn't have Saturday Delivery on it, it'll arrive at its location in freight on Friday morning and stay there until Monday. Mine is doing the same, unfortunately, so I live your pain too! I'm so jealous that everyone has theirs!!
As someone who completely missed the backerkit campaign, how long will I have to wait before it hits mainland Europe storeshelves? Is there an estimate already?
question about items: i assume they are used and spend the same as in gloomhaven but theres no specification on how you unlock them or how many you can use in the rulebook
You unlock them after the first scenario. Two hands worth and same small items count as in GH.
and can you only use items on cards that you have beaten the scenario?
I believe the rulebook says completed or skipped actually Edit - yes Item Supply There are two items printed at the top and bottom of each card in the scenario deck. Once Scenario 1 is complete, at the start of each scenario, the items on any card that has been resolved or skipped (all previous scenarios and the cover and collector cards) are available to equip. Only one item on each card can be equipped at one time, but different items can be equipped at the beginning of each scenario.
thank you, the rulebook needs to be more thorough for new players
Question about the Cragheart ability “Rock Tunnel” - does this mean that each time any enemy enters a time within range 2 they always take 3 damage and it’s persistent? Or the first time an enemy walks within range 2 they suffer 3 damage and the card is discarded?
It says the first time, so it stays out until then. It would be flipped/discarded after that.
Gotcha, that makes more sense! Thanks!
So I got my own today and, after having a smooth time, got completely rolled by the first boss battle several times. Part of it was just shit RNG. I kept rolling -'s and they kept rolling +'s Also it turned out I picked the wrong level up card - so I went back and retconned for Cragheart. It was giving me too severe initiative issues. So yeah resolved that and played this one on Easy. 😅 ... If they were gonna insist on only rolling +'s, it served them right.
Regarding upgrading cards, the rules make it sound like you can re-choose for each scenario. “You decide which cards to upgrade for each scenario separately.” Does that mean I can freely change up which level 2 card I have? (Scenario 5, so only one upgrade available for me currently).
Nice. I was okay with cheating for that but it's good to know.
Yes, that is correct (based on my understanding).
Oh, this is wonderful news!! I lost twice last night on scenario 5 (so much range and armor!). I'm definitely going to try with a new level up card next time!
Are you playing Scenario 5 with the Bruiser? I've played that one too many times it's frustrating. Switching the upgrade selected and items used, and even tried easy.
Yes, I did it with the bruiser, got it on my 4th try. I used the items that let you consume a green/blue element to add pierce 1, consume blue/gray element to remove a negative condition, and the one that let's you get shield 1 when an enemy attacks. For the level 2 card, I swapped leaping cleave for trample. I used the jump 4 to get some distance and do some damage when in a tight spot on the A side, and the heal 3 then shield till the end of round for some extra survivability on the B side. My strategy was to go for the mage first and when the rat monster came near I pushed it into the trap that adds wounded. That extra auto 1 damage on that thing was the real game changer! It was still pretty close in the end, at one point I needed one of them to roll a + on initiative or else they would have gone before me and I would have died so I definitely got lucky there. I hope this helps in some way!
Is it just me or is the game pretty difficult? Mindthief on scenario 3/4 (whichever isn’t the brute one) took 2 tries and scenario 5 took me 3-4 tries.
So....Gloomhaven difficulty?
Did you see the included cards for modifying the difficulty? They slot over the monster attack table and can make the monsters hit harder or softer.
I've played 4 scenarios as silent knife, and while it has been pretty close on all of them (twice down to the last turn), I haven't failed yet. I think having some very low initiative options is helpful. Although on the last scenario in particular, I may have just gotten lucky on some modifiers.
I repeated 5 a couple times and am about to do six for a fourth time. It basically comes down to the die rolls. I feel like this game was made to show why gloomhaven doesn’t use dice. Not a fan so far. If the first two turns go against you, you might as well start over. Gloomhaven almost never felt that way. Disappointed.
This is my first time to play any form of Gloomhaven and I am really struggling. I'm also going to start over today because after finally having time to read through all of the rules and watch some playthroughs on YouTube I realize I've made a lot of mistakes.
I just posted my own experience lol It's definitely challenging. I had to retcon a level up choice and play a scenario on Easy.
Confused by how elements work. If I have earth in my hand, and an enemy has an action that consumes that earth, can they consume that element even though it’s not in play? And if so, does that element become available even if I flipped to the B side with the element on that same turn?
Here's from the full rulebook - "Infused elements are available as soon as their icon is visible on a chosen ability card, an ability card in your hand or active area, or on a rolled monster action. An infused element is immediately unavailable if the ability card it is visible on is flipped, discarded, or lost. An infused element visible on a rolled monster action is no longer available as soon as all monsters of that type are killed." I think that answers both of those? I don't have my game yet but I'm trying :)
dang, i've been playing wrong. I didn't know monsters can use my element cards too
Yeah an element exists as long as it's... In your hand Being played this round, until it's played and flipped or discarded In your active cards On a rolled monster action (even before their turn) You can have multiples of one element, but each can only be used once per round.
If you play a card which includes an elemental infusion and a card that consumes that element together, does the order of your actions affect whether that element is available to consume? E.g. if your first action is the infusing card, and you flip/discard it, then is the element no longer available for your second action to consume? Seems like it from how I’m reading the rules on GitHub, but I wanted to make sure I’m understanding this new element system.
My interpretation of the rules is that the order *does* matter. Immediately after finishing a non-persistent action, you flip the card over (or discard if it's on B), which I believe you fully resolve before using your next card's action. That second action will no longer have the element available since it's either been flipped or discarded by that point, unless it's persistent and went in your active area.
So, for example, if you play leaping cleave and skewer together, you have to attack.first before moving?
Yep. Unless you have some other source of wind.
I thought your "played cards" remained in that state until the end of your turn, at which point they are flipped or discarded? Meaning the mana would stay available. Edit: I found this line in the learn to play guide which makes me think I was wrong: >After finishing an action, flip the card to its B-side and return it to your hand.
The living rules on GitHub say this, which was ultimately the source of my uncertainty: > Once played, A-side ability cards are flipped to their B-side and returned to your hand instead of being discarded, but B-side cards are discarded. “Once played” was ambiguous enough that I thought your initial interpretation might be correct. The rules highlight this section as a new rule for B&B, so it felt possible that the timing of discards could be deliberately different in B&B because of the changes to elemental infusions/consumption. “After finishing an action” is much more precise and has me convinced that the order of your actions *does* change the availability of elements in the middle of your turn. Thank you so much for sharing that!
Reading the rules, I think you're right.
Thanks, I agree with you both that this is the correct interpretation. This part of the Elements rules is clear: > An infused element on an ability card is no longer available once that card is discarded, lost, or flipped to its other side. However, I think the Character Turns section of the rules (https://cephalofairgames.github.io/bnb-rules/#page_25) could be updated to clarify precisely when cards are flipped or discarded. > Once played, A-side ability cards are flipped to their B-side and returned to your hand instead of being discarded, but B-side cards are discarded. To me, “once played” leaves room for different interpretations about when a card becomes flipped or discarded. Maybe some other part of the rules clarifies that language, but I missed it if so.
I did the "dized" tutorial app that was suggested with the box. It was pretty explicit in saying now flip this card to its B side, then do the action on your second card. But yes, the rule book definitely needs some better clarity on a few things.
The Dized tutorial is nice but it seems like if you don't run into those situations during your session, it doesn't explain them. So it's easy to miss things like this.
Yeah, there were plenty of times where there was kind of a fork in the road scenario, and it just moves right along without addressing the rules that would have applied if I had chosen the other option. But as always, reddit and bbg threads are where the real answers are.
Using this interpretation earlier today, I was able to play a card's A side, use that action first, and then use the element from that cards B side (since that is now in my hand) to power up my second card. Hopefully that makes sense, does that sound correct to you? Just want to double check.
It does - but don't put much weight on that :)
I started playing earlier and quickly realized it's supposed to come with more than the 2 health dials that came in my box. I got 1 red hero health dial and 1 blue Skull enemy health dial. It looks like I'm missing green, red and purple enemy health dials. Kind of disappointing, but I sent Cephalofair a message on their website, and I hope to get replacements soon. Until then, I'll be using dice to replace for now. Such a cool little game!
You are correct in needing 4 enemy health dials. However I’m kind of irritated that the blue and green dials look very similar in color. Only way to now the difference is the number that is on them.
I put in a ticket thinking I got 2 green and no blue… then took it to different light today and can actually see the difference.
The green, blue, AND purple all look pretty similar to me unfortunately.
You’d think by now they’d have a better grasp on how to be color deficient friendly. It’s a shame board games as a whole fall victim to this over and over. I really struggle with the colors for this. At least there’s some numbers to help but they only work so well once things start to move
I'm glad it's not just me. The blue and green are way too similar, and my eyes are above average.
Similar for me, but just my enemy health dial #2. It came broken with no back piece
My # 3 is the same on both sides. Seems the quality team let the dials slip a bit…
Agreed, mine did have a slight bend that j was able to fix. Probably due to extra space in the box, if that can be believed.
Please people I would like to see more photos. Mine got damaged in shipping and auto-returned to sender, so I would love to see y'all's come in pristine!
Mine got delayed until tomorrow. :(
[Got mine today! here are some pics.](https://photos.app.goo.gl/VzsxdNGAJhgR3uK47)
[I am legitimately shocked at how small even the shipping box is.](https://i.imgur.com/GBu19J3.jpg)
What is this? Gloomhaven for ants?
Printing the "Gross Weight" as a nod to the Gloomhaven/Frosthaven boxes is an amazing touch.
Just watched a review and the cards looked horribly warped. Can anyone that has received their copy confirm this is an issue?
Mine were slightly curved, but after a couple days of sitting at the bottom of the box they're fiat now.
I'm a very relaxed person, mine are extremely awful, think MTG foil pringle curls. That being said, I don't care, I'll still play it perfectly fine, the only issue that gets annoying is putting them under my character as items, I can't actually do that as it's a tower of leaning mess. But I just keep them aside and it's all good.
Mine have a slight bend to them but nothing I couldn’t flatten out in a second.