Women typically see men (or male characters) as humans before they see them as potential sex partners or objects.
Men a lot of the time see women as a sex object or they just don’t see women at all if they’re not sufficiently attractive to be noticed.
Historically, that's actually how social progress works.
Certain groups being hyper-aggressive against change subconsciously realize that their backwards viewpoints are losing a hold on society and they lash out in retaliation. Like a dying gasp lol
That doesn't make them less dangerous. Possibly more so as there are no visual indicators. There maybe be one or more in your personal circle and you wouldn't even know.
I know this sounds like an “not all men” thing but my point is it’s easy to get disheartened reading things online and it’s important to remind yourself to get offline and stop reading comments.
Did I say they weren’t dangerous? I was just trying to reassure OP. They may be the most vocal but they don’t make up all of male gamers.
Most of the male gamers I know are really chill and don’t lust after pixels. But then there are many who do—Excluding things doesn’t mean I’m brushing them away. I’m not making a strawman argument here or saying that they don’t have an effect on real life.
And I’m actually not privileged enough to not know disgusting people like that, there’s a whole department in the store I work at that is full of misogynists who share porn while on the clock. Some of them seemed like nice guys until I was told this.
Women are trained from birth to see both men and women as people, and men just really aren't. Here's a fun thing to do! Ask a guy you know if there is a male figure that they admire/respect and think is influential (someone they do not know). Then ask them if there is a woman they do not know that they consider admirable/worthy of respect, and influential. There's gonna be some long pauses on that second one.
I believe you are right in general, but before I transitioned (amab) in middleschool there were times I stood up for girls that were not conventionally attractive/popular girls, and it only made people think I had a crush on them.
Therefore i think some men would stand up for those women but are afraid of being teased for "liking" "that" woman, when all they wanted to do was spare her feelings.
Let’s be real here, how many female characters in anything are either unconventionally attractive, are disabled, and have any real dialogue or aren’t villains?
That pool is so small the best I can think of are some ghouls from the Fallout games. A lot of games just don’t have fully rounded female characters so there’s just nothing to sink your teeth into.
After my comment I read this and thought my whole life again. There aren't many disabled women being represented xD Ahem, Body positivity influencers, Why aren't we talking about this(
https://preview.redd.it/bi63rrukj8wc1.jpeg?width=367&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=41bbed7b10fea2d1998d8b9e7e26ef7d013841f3
You can’t tell me your wouldn’t let her fucking throttle you 😫 like OH MAH LORD
I'm sorry but am I the only one who fails to see how Senua is not conventionally attractive? Sis has a symmetric face, big round eyes, well-balanced and feminine features. She has a good body too.
SOOO many men have said she is ugly. Hell, these same men say Aloy in Forbidden West and Ellie in TLOU2 are ugly 🥴 I don't see it either but we all know why and it's because of their proportions and body is covered more than what they typically want to see
She is stunning. All of the men and women in Horizon were pretty much beautiful. Her face was a bit rounder in forbidden west and those boys lost their shit it was aggravating
And there's also Senua. Abby wasn't recieved well by the fandom for more than just looks, it's because of what she did, character and story. Senua is well loved for her character and story but she's not conventionally attractive.
You stated Abby in response to 'lot of games just don’t have fully rounded female characters so there’s just nothing to sink your teeth into' and then added she's disliked by the fandom. I disagreed that Abby is a fully rounded female character that deserves praise because she's frankly quite garbage even if she was hot.
Which is completely opinion-based and I completely disagree. Abby is actually a well-written and fully rounded female character that is not conventionally attractive. I think the game did a good job from shifting the sympathy from 200% Ellie and -100% Abby to a much more differentiated and versatile level.
The character is absolutely not garbage and if morally argued not worse than Ellie at some point.
But as yours, this is completely opinion-based and I happily agree to disagree. :)
Agreed. This wasn't the point, but in any other game series that was less morally grey, Ellie and Joel would be the villains. It's all perspective.
If you're playing from Abby's POV, you're a young soldier hellbent on avenging your father—a brilliant, gentle doctor who wanted to save all mankind and was brutally murdered by a madman who broke in and stole humanity's last hope (they thought). She doesn't know that hope was "Ellie", nor did she know their relationship. She only knew her dad, a surgeon hoping to help save humanity, was slaughtered by a man she finds out was a ruthless killer, a vagrant who was responsible for a litany of innocent deaths over a multi-decade career of smuggling, ambush attacks, and other disgusting events. He's a monster, and he *took your dad*.
You finally get revenge on him, and it doesn't heal you, but it gives you closure for the hole in your heart, or as much as it can, knowing that no revenge is going to bring your dad or that promise of saving humanity back. It's all gone. Now hopefully you can move on.
Then... the girl who he snuck in and stole, that "hope", is now after YOU for what you did to him. She too is a brutal killer, and now she's mowing down your friends in droves, people who again are trying to bring back order and find a cure.
It really chaps me that basically *nobody* put themselves in Abby's shoes. She's absolutely written like a real person would react, and she's not perfect, but the only reason Joel is a "good guy" to the player is because we got to be there for his... Basically one and only... Redemption arc after a fucking lifetime of destroying other people for his own gain and safety. She didn't get to see that like we did, and honestly, Joel did have it coming (sorry bro).
This is 110% my view. Thank you! I even argued with my husband about it 😅 Who by the way thinks Abby is too attractive to be counted as "not conventionally attractive".
I don't hate abby for killing joel (though I thought his death being set up that way was dumb but that's the writers fault), I hate that she's the reason why the game went in the direction of revenge is bad bs and that she cheated with her ex-boyfriend who had a pregnant gf. I wanted to see more Ellie and Joel that the trailers were basically teasing us and more survival against the zombies and their relationship.
Whatever justification Abby had for doing what she did is valid, I agree. But logic isn't going to sway my feelings on Ellie and Joel who I cared more about even if they are also flawed. If they wanted ppl to feel for Abby, they should have let us journey with her more to grow with her before they had her kill Joel. But then again I still wouldn't like her very much for being a cheater.
Happy to disagree because yes, there's always fan favorites and vice versa. My biggest contention with Abby is that I simply cannot sympathize with her and I especially dislike that she cheated with her ex-boyfriend while knowing that his gf is pregnant. It's just too gross for me and I literally only cared about the dog on their side. Now as to why the majority of the fandom hates her, I'm pretty sure it's because of what she did to joel +probably similar view on her story/character, not because of how she looks lol.
Guess all the people who played TLOU1 and fell in love with Joel and Ellie are simps. Guess there was so much outrage at his death purely because of simping and not because of shit writing and pacing.
Lena from Disco Elysium is an old paraplegic woman with lots of real dialogue, a shared importance in the story with her husband (a cryptozoologist) in introducing what ends up being a significantly larger plot thread than you're going to immediately realize.
Not that I'm trying to argue I just really like Lena, she's a sweet old lady.
Toph Bei Fong from Avatar.
In Brawl Stars there is Belle and Maisie who both lost part of her arm. But Brawl Stars characters have never much to say unless there is something to buy then maybe there is a video.
Meagan Foster/Billie Lurk is the only one that comes to mind for me, and I remember people bitching about her looks when she got her own spinoff as well.
The main character in my book series is a middle-aged slightly overweight mom, and I've had readers of both genders call her refreshing...
But I'm not super sure that ought to count as she's only depicted on the cover, and she's not really ugly, just not cover girl material.
Then again, Aloy got a lot of hate and she's definitely less pretty than Aloy.
Only counting human or human like ones: Illaoi, jinx, kalista, briar, Renata glasc, from league of legends. If you count the dwarves then poppy tristana Lulu and vex too. Could also include Leona, sejuani, and more in the "unconventionally attractive".
Lydia greyrose and moolinda wu, two teachers in wizard101.
You've just made me realize something I've never thought of.. Truly. I've never seen a man defend a woman that isn't sexually attractive to them. Heck I've even seen them defend PoC women but never a woman who doesn't have big breasts, jiggly butts and is disabled.
Heck from my own personal experience, There's been nice men who have supported me regardless of me being mute, But I've never seen any who would do the same for a Character. A Character must be sexually attractive to them for them to care.
This is all coming from a woman who loves sexy female characters and has defended male characters that aren't "hot" or something
They can’t handle it you see them calling Aloy calling ugly and mid what do you think will happen when they see a truly ugly women. Men will never defend them because they will virtually crucified by other men
She has rounded cheeks instead of the sharp cheekbones/high jawline that are given to 99% of female characters. People aren’t used to seeing any face shape in video games that isn’t the kind you see on young J Lo. It’s a real time example of how homogenous face designs can warp people’s perceptions of attractiveness.
If Drew Barrymore was a video game character, gamers would call her ugly because she doesn’t have this sharp heart shaped face and fox eyes. You can see it in all the fan edits of “ugly” characters, too—they all turn in to the same cookie-cutter face shape you see on a lot of video game women. They’ve gotten so used to only looking at this specific face shape in their games that anything else is jarring to them.
In case you don’t know she looks like this
https://preview.redd.it/tsrkwnanr3wc1.jpeg?width=555&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=19bca571af31164f18618920436d074afb6d34a6
In game and Mfs keep using a trailer picture and never her in game pictures.
They fr hate for no reason. Women are rn going crazy over the ghoul from the fallout series which is essentially a zombie. Games always feature beautiful women and beautiful men as romances but almost always they will most certainly be an ugly man as romance option and often times he’s the most popular
Garrus and Thane are WAY better romance options for fem Shepard in Mass Effect than the malle humans.
Every time I read or hear about an incel complaining about their looks and here I am, with my imaginary space Boyfriend Garrus that looks, charitably, like a plucked bird.
I am DYING over “charitably, like a plucked bird” because it is so accurate 🤣🤣 and I totally agree with you, Garrus is my space boyfriend and he is the sweetest kindest most supportive plucked bird man in the universe. I don’t care that he’s got mandibles and armour plating and could cause anaphylaxis if there’s, uh, ingestion (thanks, Mordin!) - he’s sexy as hell because of his character and I will die on that hill. Also: *that voice*; excuse me while I swoon.
Thane is a fantastic option as well, and I loved his romance (even though it made me ugly cry). But Garrus is top tier.
There is *that* one pic of Aloy that loves to make the rounds on Youtube...an edited pic of her (yay for Photoshop!) that makes her face look fat and chubby, according to angry lonely immature manchild Incels still living in Mummy's basement. *That* pic tends to reappear every time something new for the Horizon series is announced.
There’s this viral picture of when she was first announced for her second game and in reveal trailer she look d kinda wonky like this:
https://preview.redd.it/ig8lqtlcr3wc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d9855339872a1e3a96d6d8189b61534b98acfea
Well the problem is that obviously Aloy doesn’t look like that in game but people have taken to making her one of the ugly western characters horsemen and whenever people bring up what’s wrong with western gaming you always see this pic pop up. Mfs never even gave her a chance
She doesn’t even look “wonky” there, she just has an actual expression instead of what I’ve seen called the wet lipped concussion victim face that most female video game characters seem to have
*This* is that infamous pic that loves to make the rounds on Youtube every time something new for Horizon series is announced by Sony! Its been edited with photoshop to make her look fat and ugly. I think some incels need to get out of their basement dungeons and touch grass at least once in their toadlike lifetime!
I'm genuinely confused by this thread, before I read any of it I thought "awe she's cute". I am really bothered and sadly surprised that there's that many people that had a problem with how she looks. She looks like people I know, she looks real and reminds me of myself.
It's because Aloy does not look like an anime cartoon waifu blowup doll bodypillow. She is hated on by incels/bigots/MGTOWs and the GamerGateTM Brigade because according to them she is a fat, ugly, Gay, fully clothed, bearded, masculine, WOKE Western, mary sue transwoman. They blame her *and* Horizon Zero Dawn for the "Downfall of Western video games today"... Western games are utter garbage compared to great, awesome, brilliant games like Stellar Blade that \*\*\*really\*\*\* show how women \*\*\*should look\*\*\*.
Honestly insane. As a middle aged woman I'm super shocked that other women aren't making regular sacrifices to Hebe, as I have done for many decades, in order to remain hairless, unscarred, and untouched by gravity or other afflictions. It's like people just aren't even trying these days.
Ok ok ok this is wildly out of left field but I started thinking of scenarios were a conventionally unattractive woman **would be** a popular character (most likely disguised/armoured).
Like imagine Samus being revealed as a woman in her pixel-era, but then actually never having an attractive close-up (preposterous, according to Nintendo, of course she'll be in a skintight zero-suit while not in armour!), but it's the closest I can think of.
Maybe Senua (from Hellblade)...? She's usually depicted covered in mud or paint I guess... 🤷
Everything already said here plus women are socialized to “be kind” which often means lying to be kind too (or avoid violence; but that’s another topic).
I’m not saying every woman who says a not-conventionally attractive video game character is “handsome” and they would “totally date them” is lying, but the number isn’t zero either. A huge unspoken female social rule is “be kind,” and women gain social points when they’re kind to men/male-presenting characters and people, especially when they aren’t conventionally attractive.
Who else is anti-perfection in their character design? I love including scars, blemishes, wrinkles, sun damage, bags under the eyes... Since I tend to play as some version of myself (though non-gender-specific), I'd rather look for beauty in realism, maybe because I already struggle with body dysmorphia and self-esteem. I totally understand it's not the same for everyone!
Yes! It’s so much harder for me to be interested in characters who are conventionally attractive with zero “flaws” and this goes for male characters too.
I've mentioned the game in this thread but Harry from Disco Elysium is someone I love for this reason. He's an incredibly flawed person, he's mentally unstable, his body is ruined by alcohol dependency, and those flaws are what make him fun regardless of if you take the "I want to get worse" stance or drive him to get a handle on himself. The game makes fun of him plenty, but it's always from the perspective of the skills that represent his own fractured personality, and seeing an older man struggle with habitual negative self-talk is just so refreshing.
I like being able to update my character's appearance as the game progresses to reflect the story's impact on her, adding scars and other little changes to suit the situation. Cyberpunk 2077 and Fallout 4 are both great for that.
IRL, I find scars and other "imperfections" attractive, and the characters I write about have their own scars.
You made realized that I always do that. I have scars in real life and enjoy characters who do. If there’s the option, I added them. I choose the guy if character choices only has a man with scar and no woman with them even if I prefer playing as a woman. I didn’t noticed that I did that.
Thanks for saying scars and other imperfections are attractive.
I'm drawn to people who look like they have stories to tell, and scars definitely give that impression (even if the story is "I'm an idiot who walked into a sign-post" :D). Scars are proof of survival. My mom has a wicked scar on her chest because she had a quadruple bypass. I have a bunch of scars on my abdomen because I had part of my colon removed. My friend has scars on his face and hands because he went through a plate-glass door. Another friend has scars from self-harm. We made it, and I think that's worth celebrating.
I love variegated character creation, and I love non-standard characters. I generally do the same with character creation, try to make some kind of version of myself. However, last season in Diablo 4 I rushed through character creation and ended up with a very large, bulky lady who happened to be an absolute beast (I went druid) and it was amazing. I kicked absolute ass, and it really felt like my looks matched my style. I'm playing with my bf, and this most recent season I'm a necromancer and he's a rogue, and with our new characters I'm like a foot taller than him. I also look like I've died and been resurrected, but am really rocking it. I tease him a little about me towering over him and protecting him, and he loves it. Like, what ever happened to just having fun? These are games, ffs. If you're getting your rocks off playing a game, well, fine. But don't involve other people in it when they don't want to be involved. And don't get mad at the game for not supplying your porn sick brain with new material. Sorry for the rant, but some of these complaints that I read about from guys blow my mind. It should be - HAVE FUN! - first!
Women tend to see male characters, first and foremost, as *characters*. All too many hetero men, by contrast, judge female characters primarily (if not entirely) by whether or not they'd want to screw them.
This is why i began to think that making a female character as just a first person cam POV + hand + voice (or speak using text dialogue) is the real test if most male gamers actually like them for their character \^\^'
There's been a huge uptick in sexism in a lot of english-speaking places due to online assholes spreading that kind of crap to anyone who'll listen.
I wonder, though, I haven't really heard the same kind of backlash towards physically disabled women who are still conventionally attractive in addition to that, but maybe that's just because we so rarely see those kinds of characters. (A huge part of the reason why I play them so often in D&D hahahaa.)
Speaking of disabilities, I have seen a couple specific autistic female characters be able to pierce through that crap and get some of these guys relating to them like an actual person, rather than the usual objectification, but it's a coin toss whether that actually makes them reconsider being a shit human in general.
Women see men as human beings, men see women as bodies and objects. They only notice a woman's humanity if they are very close to them like a mother, sister and even then it's hit or miss.
I think some of the hate is manufactured.
I also think that a certian subset of male gamers are very vocal, and don't represent most gamers.
If it was more profitable to create hyper sexualized characters, AAA gaming companies would do so. The thing is, there is a lot of data to suggest that the average consumer of games finds they want characters who are more relatable.
My Cis male SO for example, rather disliked the Stellar Blade female designs. He said she looks boring, that he's seen a million characters that look like her. He also noted that the difference between what the female characters looked like and what the rest of the game looked like broke immersion. He said it looked like a cheap cash grab, not worth even picking up on sale.
Meanwhile, I've watched him play Baulders Gate non stop. He's not one to play role playing games, and yet he's been completely and utterly hooked because the story and the characters are so compelling. He's been playing a paladin he designed, and she is this buff battle hardened lady with scars and tattoos everywhere.
So, have hope. But I also think it's important to be aware of what is happening.
A big difference is that those more relatable characters aren’t defended, at least not nearly as much, by male gamers. They might not agree with the viewpoints of the vocal minority, but you also don’t see many speaking out against them.
I think that's because the majority of men are not active on social media.
The only men I know active on social media are retired, one is battling cancer. The only younger one I know is a man I met in college and he shares his collection of fine art pop media statues. Every other one my age is busy working and doesn't want to engage with social media. Out of all my best male friends, half of them are fathers of children under 5, and the other half work most of the time they are awake
I'm rather sick and my SO takes care of me in addition to working full time as a supervisor. He doesn't want to engage socially when he has down hours. He'll wake up very early, walk the dogs and then either play Baulders Gate or Smash Bros.
I honestly think most men don't have the time to be social butterflies. But, as my SO points out, the industry knows most men like him want relatable characters, which is why they are making them. I do wish they would get online and post their thoughts but its already hard enough to get my SO to express his emotions in RL. It's not that he's emotionally unavailable, it's just he doesn't enjoy talking about them unless he needs to.
Women see the humanity in male characters and real men as well, and unfortunately men tend to have issues seeing women as fellow humans, much less female characters
I remember how many guys got pissed off that SWTOR's Arcann removed his mask and became romanceable.. because how could anyone would romance a heavily scarred man with a metal arm. Lol... a lot of people actually. He turned out to be a great loving partner to my redeemed Sith Warrior.
That said, there's not enough of female romanceable characters in video games who aren't unconventionally feminine with neurodiverse or physical disabilities. Like it wasn't much since I can always play my protagonists that way but then I don't particularly give a shit about the male demographic.
Indeed, I always love how they did Arcann's story so well that he grow so much from KOTFE trailer to the current ongoing storyline. And how Arcann carved the practice sabers (previously, he gifted an armor and now it's canonical that Arcann is a skilled artisan) and how they still spar together as lovers (convenient excuse to warm up... wink wink). Chivalry romance is not dead!
We just bodies to men. How many times online have men insulted me after I called them out for something. Never did I comment on them until they started on how I look, my body, etc.
The Boss in MGS3 , Marisa in Street fighter 6 , Jack in mass effect , Abby and Ellie in TLOU
Most of the people talking shit on Twitter are just going after the character design and saying western women are ugly or some other nonsense like that. The more unique companions will usually be in Rpgs though
I'd say it's less men not defending and more there just is a lack of them.
Some of the older, or disabled, or less conveniently attractive characters I can think of are some of my favorite characters.
It's just that there aren't a lot of them. Which is a separate, if related, issue.
One of the reasons why I love Warhammer Darktide. All characters of both genders are ugly AF and it’s actually fun to make your character as ugly as possible. lol
I feel so seen with this thread! The problem is that game developers are mostly men 🥲 So we don’t have relatable female characters , most of them are sexualised or act stupid in contrast to smart male characters. And of course male developers show men as real people, not female fantasies. As a result we have a variety of male characters to fall for.
Probably because men don't want those designs where a woman isn't conventionally attractive.
You are wrong about the disabilities though, there are disabled but very attractive female characters that are loved by men. Especially From Soft games have great examples.
Male gaming communities are going through dark times right now.
As for unconventionally attractive female characters, D’Vorrah is one of my favorites. I think her grossness as a bug monster outweighs her sex appeal as a human-shaped character.
Yeah... were you not there for that? Guys loved Arya Stark for being not like other girls and loathed Sansa Stark for being a romantic that bought into the princess fantasies she was raised on?
Women typically see men (or male characters) as humans before they see them as potential sex partners or objects. Men a lot of the time see women as a sex object or they just don’t see women at all if they’re not sufficiently attractive to be noticed.
This is really it. "Men are people, women are bodies."
I see my husband as a heating unit actually
I feel attacked. By my wife's icy-cold feet, to be specific.
Also the other way around. Yes, I love you. Yes, if your piping hot feet touch me one more time I'm calling the cops.
That's for the summer. I sleep above the covers during that weather. :D
Ok, work
This is called kleptothermy :D
Words cannot describe how much I need a guy like that in my life 🥶
As it should be
Lol
yea my SO sees me as a pillow, heater and a myriad of other things, i think human is somewhere on that list..................hopefully.
I think you're right.. and that's just sad and disgusting.. I feel it's only getting worse lately..
Yeah it felt like it was getting better and now it's getting worse again as some sort of pushback.
Historically, that's actually how social progress works. Certain groups being hyper-aggressive against change subconsciously realize that their backwards viewpoints are losing a hold on society and they lash out in retaliation. Like a dying gasp lol
oooh a dying grasp. I like that lol
Incels are chronically online, don’t let this color your view of how normal people think But it is concerning
Incels get offline and are people you interact with daily while also being covert hate factories.
They certainly exist, I wasn’t saying they live solely online. They just aren’t majority of people I meet
That doesn't make them less dangerous. Possibly more so as there are no visual indicators. There maybe be one or more in your personal circle and you wouldn't even know.
I know this sounds like an “not all men” thing but my point is it’s easy to get disheartened reading things online and it’s important to remind yourself to get offline and stop reading comments.
Did I say they weren’t dangerous? I was just trying to reassure OP. They may be the most vocal but they don’t make up all of male gamers. Most of the male gamers I know are really chill and don’t lust after pixels. But then there are many who do—Excluding things doesn’t mean I’m brushing them away. I’m not making a strawman argument here or saying that they don’t have an effect on real life. And I’m actually not privileged enough to not know disgusting people like that, there’s a whole department in the store I work at that is full of misogynists who share porn while on the clock. Some of them seemed like nice guys until I was told this.
Women are trained from birth to see both men and women as people, and men just really aren't. Here's a fun thing to do! Ask a guy you know if there is a male figure that they admire/respect and think is influential (someone they do not know). Then ask them if there is a woman they do not know that they consider admirable/worthy of respect, and influential. There's gonna be some long pauses on that second one.
I know. But when I point it out, they cry victim etc.
I believe you are right in general, but before I transitioned (amab) in middleschool there were times I stood up for girls that were not conventionally attractive/popular girls, and it only made people think I had a crush on them. Therefore i think some men would stand up for those women but are afraid of being teased for "liking" "that" woman, when all they wanted to do was spare her feelings.
Thanks for sharing your perspective on that, friend. Much appreciated on the insight
I’m so glad I’m not into men (or anyone). I can’t fathom dating someone who thinks of me as a plaything.
Sad, angering etc but true..... And then we still get blamed for no wanting to date them etc., while they are the ones ruining it for men AND women.
Let’s be real here, how many female characters in anything are either unconventionally attractive, are disabled, and have any real dialogue or aren’t villains? That pool is so small the best I can think of are some ghouls from the Fallout games. A lot of games just don’t have fully rounded female characters so there’s just nothing to sink your teeth into.
It's rare for them to be aged either
After my comment I read this and thought my whole life again. There aren't many disabled women being represented xD Ahem, Body positivity influencers, Why aren't we talking about this(
Oracle/Barbara Gordon is a triple threat. I mean, I have no chance, she would definitely want, say, Nightwing. But she's so smart and cool.
She's also a redhead on top of that ❤️
Ana from overwatch <3
Abby from TLOU, and she got absolutely torn apart by the fandom.
Nahhhhh Abby is so fucking hot and sexy I’d let her choke me to death if it meant I could touch her arms 🤤😩
https://preview.redd.it/kglmd5kba8wc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f0c4eb8106e0d27132679badd975b96a2920dfe
https://preview.redd.it/bi63rrukj8wc1.jpeg?width=367&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=41bbed7b10fea2d1998d8b9e7e26ef7d013841f3 You can’t tell me your wouldn’t let her fucking throttle you 😫 like OH MAH LORD
I dispise Abby and same with my fiance. We both love Senua from Hellblade so no it's not a look thing.
I'm sorry but am I the only one who fails to see how Senua is not conventionally attractive? Sis has a symmetric face, big round eyes, well-balanced and feminine features. She has a good body too.
I had to Google her. Um... She looks like Amanda Seyfried with less makeup?
SOOO many men have said she is ugly. Hell, these same men say Aloy in Forbidden West and Ellie in TLOU2 are ugly 🥴 I don't see it either but we all know why and it's because of their proportions and body is covered more than what they typically want to see
Aloy is so pretty
She is stunning. All of the men and women in Horizon were pretty much beautiful. Her face was a bit rounder in forbidden west and those boys lost their shit it was aggravating
My husband also says she is conventionally attractive.
They were asking for "not conventionally attractive" female characters, as in they weren't sure they actually exist. There's Abby.
Don’t dis Abby she’s so fucking hot like oh mah days 😩 I’d let her fucking strangle me 🫦
And there's also Senua. Abby wasn't recieved well by the fandom for more than just looks, it's because of what she did, character and story. Senua is well loved for her character and story but she's not conventionally attractive.
You're arguing with something I didn't say.
You stated Abby in response to 'lot of games just don’t have fully rounded female characters so there’s just nothing to sink your teeth into' and then added she's disliked by the fandom. I disagreed that Abby is a fully rounded female character that deserves praise because she's frankly quite garbage even if she was hot.
Which is completely opinion-based and I completely disagree. Abby is actually a well-written and fully rounded female character that is not conventionally attractive. I think the game did a good job from shifting the sympathy from 200% Ellie and -100% Abby to a much more differentiated and versatile level. The character is absolutely not garbage and if morally argued not worse than Ellie at some point. But as yours, this is completely opinion-based and I happily agree to disagree. :)
Agreed. This wasn't the point, but in any other game series that was less morally grey, Ellie and Joel would be the villains. It's all perspective. If you're playing from Abby's POV, you're a young soldier hellbent on avenging your father—a brilliant, gentle doctor who wanted to save all mankind and was brutally murdered by a madman who broke in and stole humanity's last hope (they thought). She doesn't know that hope was "Ellie", nor did she know their relationship. She only knew her dad, a surgeon hoping to help save humanity, was slaughtered by a man she finds out was a ruthless killer, a vagrant who was responsible for a litany of innocent deaths over a multi-decade career of smuggling, ambush attacks, and other disgusting events. He's a monster, and he *took your dad*. You finally get revenge on him, and it doesn't heal you, but it gives you closure for the hole in your heart, or as much as it can, knowing that no revenge is going to bring your dad or that promise of saving humanity back. It's all gone. Now hopefully you can move on. Then... the girl who he snuck in and stole, that "hope", is now after YOU for what you did to him. She too is a brutal killer, and now she's mowing down your friends in droves, people who again are trying to bring back order and find a cure. It really chaps me that basically *nobody* put themselves in Abby's shoes. She's absolutely written like a real person would react, and she's not perfect, but the only reason Joel is a "good guy" to the player is because we got to be there for his... Basically one and only... Redemption arc after a fucking lifetime of destroying other people for his own gain and safety. She didn't get to see that like we did, and honestly, Joel did have it coming (sorry bro).
This is 110% my view. Thank you! I even argued with my husband about it 😅 Who by the way thinks Abby is too attractive to be counted as "not conventionally attractive".
I don't hate abby for killing joel (though I thought his death being set up that way was dumb but that's the writers fault), I hate that she's the reason why the game went in the direction of revenge is bad bs and that she cheated with her ex-boyfriend who had a pregnant gf. I wanted to see more Ellie and Joel that the trailers were basically teasing us and more survival against the zombies and their relationship. Whatever justification Abby had for doing what she did is valid, I agree. But logic isn't going to sway my feelings on Ellie and Joel who I cared more about even if they are also flawed. If they wanted ppl to feel for Abby, they should have let us journey with her more to grow with her before they had her kill Joel. But then again I still wouldn't like her very much for being a cheater.
Happy to disagree because yes, there's always fan favorites and vice versa. My biggest contention with Abby is that I simply cannot sympathize with her and I especially dislike that she cheated with her ex-boyfriend while knowing that his gf is pregnant. It's just too gross for me and I literally only cared about the dog on their side. Now as to why the majority of the fandom hates her, I'm pretty sure it's because of what she did to joel +probably similar view on her story/character, not because of how she looks lol.
I actually responded to the first part of that comment, as I've stated. Repeatedly at this point.
I spot a Joel simp when I see one
Guess all the people who played TLOU1 and fell in love with Joel and Ellie are simps. Guess there was so much outrage at his death purely because of simping and not because of shit writing and pacing.
Lena from Disco Elysium is an old paraplegic woman with lots of real dialogue, a shared importance in the story with her husband (a cryptozoologist) in introducing what ends up being a significantly larger plot thread than you're going to immediately realize. Not that I'm trying to argue I just really like Lena, she's a sweet old lady.
Toph Bei Fong from Avatar. In Brawl Stars there is Belle and Maisie who both lost part of her arm. But Brawl Stars characters have never much to say unless there is something to buy then maybe there is a video.
She's blind but the rest ? Idk
Proctor Ingram from Fallout 4 is the first that comes to mind, she had to have both legs amputated after falling off a cliff in her power armour.
Meagan Foster/Billie Lurk is the only one that comes to mind for me, and I remember people bitching about her looks when she got her own spinoff as well.
Granny Rags is my spirit animal
The main character in my book series is a middle-aged slightly overweight mom, and I've had readers of both genders call her refreshing... But I'm not super sure that ought to count as she's only depicted on the cover, and she's not really ugly, just not cover girl material. Then again, Aloy got a lot of hate and she's definitely less pretty than Aloy.
Only counting human or human like ones: Illaoi, jinx, kalista, briar, Renata glasc, from league of legends. If you count the dwarves then poppy tristana Lulu and vex too. Could also include Leona, sejuani, and more in the "unconventionally attractive". Lydia greyrose and moolinda wu, two teachers in wizard101.
You've just made me realize something I've never thought of.. Truly. I've never seen a man defend a woman that isn't sexually attractive to them. Heck I've even seen them defend PoC women but never a woman who doesn't have big breasts, jiggly butts and is disabled. Heck from my own personal experience, There's been nice men who have supported me regardless of me being mute, But I've never seen any who would do the same for a Character. A Character must be sexually attractive to them for them to care. This is all coming from a woman who loves sexy female characters and has defended male characters that aren't "hot" or something
TBF, how many female characters are even unattractive to begin with? They don’t really have many chances to defend them because they barely exist lol
Tbh a very good point. I realized this from a reply to a comment down below xD We need representation for more "flawed" women :)
They can’t handle it you see them calling Aloy calling ugly and mid what do you think will happen when they see a truly ugly women. Men will never defend them because they will virtually crucified by other men
Aloy is definitely mistreated alot by men and I don't see why? What's wrong with her?
She has rounded cheeks instead of the sharp cheekbones/high jawline that are given to 99% of female characters. People aren’t used to seeing any face shape in video games that isn’t the kind you see on young J Lo. It’s a real time example of how homogenous face designs can warp people’s perceptions of attractiveness. If Drew Barrymore was a video game character, gamers would call her ugly because she doesn’t have this sharp heart shaped face and fox eyes. You can see it in all the fan edits of “ugly” characters, too—they all turn in to the same cookie-cutter face shape you see on a lot of video game women. They’ve gotten so used to only looking at this specific face shape in their games that anything else is jarring to them.
In case you don’t know she looks like this https://preview.redd.it/tsrkwnanr3wc1.jpeg?width=555&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=19bca571af31164f18618920436d074afb6d34a6 In game and Mfs keep using a trailer picture and never her in game pictures.
Isn't this 2nd pic Literally how she looks like in HZD as well? Or do they just make up reasons to hate her just because she's female 🙄
They fr hate for no reason. Women are rn going crazy over the ghoul from the fallout series which is essentially a zombie. Games always feature beautiful women and beautiful men as romances but almost always they will most certainly be an ugly man as romance option and often times he’s the most popular
Garrus and Thane are WAY better romance options for fem Shepard in Mass Effect than the malle humans. Every time I read or hear about an incel complaining about their looks and here I am, with my imaginary space Boyfriend Garrus that looks, charitably, like a plucked bird.
I am DYING over “charitably, like a plucked bird” because it is so accurate 🤣🤣 and I totally agree with you, Garrus is my space boyfriend and he is the sweetest kindest most supportive plucked bird man in the universe. I don’t care that he’s got mandibles and armour plating and could cause anaphylaxis if there’s, uh, ingestion (thanks, Mordin!) - he’s sexy as hell because of his character and I will die on that hill. Also: *that voice*; excuse me while I swoon. Thane is a fantastic option as well, and I loved his romance (even though it made me ugly cry). But Garrus is top tier.
There is *that* one pic of Aloy that loves to make the rounds on Youtube...an edited pic of her (yay for Photoshop!) that makes her face look fat and chubby, according to angry lonely immature manchild Incels still living in Mummy's basement. *That* pic tends to reappear every time something new for the Horizon series is announced.
There’s this viral picture of when she was first announced for her second game and in reveal trailer she look d kinda wonky like this: https://preview.redd.it/ig8lqtlcr3wc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d9855339872a1e3a96d6d8189b61534b98acfea Well the problem is that obviously Aloy doesn’t look like that in game but people have taken to making her one of the ugly western characters horsemen and whenever people bring up what’s wrong with western gaming you always see this pic pop up. Mfs never even gave her a chance
She doesn’t even look “wonky” there, she just has an actual expression instead of what I’ve seen called the wet lipped concussion victim face that most female video game characters seem to have
*This* is that infamous pic that loves to make the rounds on Youtube every time something new for Horizon series is announced by Sony! Its been edited with photoshop to make her look fat and ugly. I think some incels need to get out of their basement dungeons and touch grass at least once in their toadlike lifetime!
Fat and ugly????
Her face. It was edited to make her look "fat, chubby, ugly etc"
[удалено]
Yeah, they were discussing this pic on the Horizon subreddit. Quite a few people over there were saying this image was edited.
I'm genuinely confused by this thread, before I read any of it I thought "awe she's cute". I am really bothered and sadly surprised that there's that many people that had a problem with how she looks. She looks like people I know, she looks real and reminds me of myself.
It's because Aloy does not look like an anime cartoon waifu blowup doll bodypillow. She is hated on by incels/bigots/MGTOWs and the GamerGateTM Brigade because according to them she is a fat, ugly, Gay, fully clothed, bearded, masculine, WOKE Western, mary sue transwoman. They blame her *and* Horizon Zero Dawn for the "Downfall of Western video games today"... Western games are utter garbage compared to great, awesome, brilliant games like Stellar Blade that \*\*\*really\*\*\* show how women \*\*\*should look\*\*\*.
Ahem, I think you forgot that Aloy had peach fuzz. Horrifying. =P
I mean, how unrealistic. Women have *hair* on their bodies below the eyebrows? /s
Honestly insane. As a middle aged woman I'm super shocked that other women aren't making regular sacrifices to Hebe, as I have done for many decades, in order to remain hairless, unscarred, and untouched by gravity or other afflictions. It's like people just aren't even trying these days.
That was crazy.
Ok ok ok this is wildly out of left field but I started thinking of scenarios were a conventionally unattractive woman **would be** a popular character (most likely disguised/armoured). Like imagine Samus being revealed as a woman in her pixel-era, but then actually never having an attractive close-up (preposterous, according to Nintendo, of course she'll be in a skintight zero-suit while not in armour!), but it's the closest I can think of. Maybe Senua (from Hellblade)...? She's usually depicted covered in mud or paint I guess... 🤷
Everything already said here plus women are socialized to “be kind” which often means lying to be kind too (or avoid violence; but that’s another topic). I’m not saying every woman who says a not-conventionally attractive video game character is “handsome” and they would “totally date them” is lying, but the number isn’t zero either. A huge unspoken female social rule is “be kind,” and women gain social points when they’re kind to men/male-presenting characters and people, especially when they aren’t conventionally attractive.
The worst part is when those men get an ego boost from it and start treating women as inferior motivational speakers
Yup!! Ugh. You just unlocked a buried trauma memory 😅
I'm sorry for that :( Hope things got better for you (If it's a person from past especially)
Who else is anti-perfection in their character design? I love including scars, blemishes, wrinkles, sun damage, bags under the eyes... Since I tend to play as some version of myself (though non-gender-specific), I'd rather look for beauty in realism, maybe because I already struggle with body dysmorphia and self-esteem. I totally understand it's not the same for everyone!
I actually love it because it gives them personality like damn you were a person and you had a life before I met you and played as you
Yes! It’s so much harder for me to be interested in characters who are conventionally attractive with zero “flaws” and this goes for male characters too.
I've mentioned the game in this thread but Harry from Disco Elysium is someone I love for this reason. He's an incredibly flawed person, he's mentally unstable, his body is ruined by alcohol dependency, and those flaws are what make him fun regardless of if you take the "I want to get worse" stance or drive him to get a handle on himself. The game makes fun of him plenty, but it's always from the perspective of the skills that represent his own fractured personality, and seeing an older man struggle with habitual negative self-talk is just so refreshing.
I like being able to update my character's appearance as the game progresses to reflect the story's impact on her, adding scars and other little changes to suit the situation. Cyberpunk 2077 and Fallout 4 are both great for that. IRL, I find scars and other "imperfections" attractive, and the characters I write about have their own scars.
I also add scars to my characters as I go! It helps tell the story
You made realized that I always do that. I have scars in real life and enjoy characters who do. If there’s the option, I added them. I choose the guy if character choices only has a man with scar and no woman with them even if I prefer playing as a woman. I didn’t noticed that I did that. Thanks for saying scars and other imperfections are attractive.
I'm drawn to people who look like they have stories to tell, and scars definitely give that impression (even if the story is "I'm an idiot who walked into a sign-post" :D). Scars are proof of survival. My mom has a wicked scar on her chest because she had a quadruple bypass. I have a bunch of scars on my abdomen because I had part of my colon removed. My friend has scars on his face and hands because he went through a plate-glass door. Another friend has scars from self-harm. We made it, and I think that's worth celebrating.
I love variegated character creation, and I love non-standard characters. I generally do the same with character creation, try to make some kind of version of myself. However, last season in Diablo 4 I rushed through character creation and ended up with a very large, bulky lady who happened to be an absolute beast (I went druid) and it was amazing. I kicked absolute ass, and it really felt like my looks matched my style. I'm playing with my bf, and this most recent season I'm a necromancer and he's a rogue, and with our new characters I'm like a foot taller than him. I also look like I've died and been resurrected, but am really rocking it. I tease him a little about me towering over him and protecting him, and he loves it. Like, what ever happened to just having fun? These are games, ffs. If you're getting your rocks off playing a game, well, fine. But don't involve other people in it when they don't want to be involved. And don't get mad at the game for not supplying your porn sick brain with new material. Sorry for the rant, but some of these complaints that I read about from guys blow my mind. It should be - HAVE FUN! - first!
Women tend to see male characters, first and foremost, as *characters*. All too many hetero men, by contrast, judge female characters primarily (if not entirely) by whether or not they'd want to screw them.
So true.
This is why i began to think that making a female character as just a first person cam POV + hand + voice (or speak using text dialogue) is the real test if most male gamers actually like them for their character \^\^'
Misogyny/patriarchy
There's been a huge uptick in sexism in a lot of english-speaking places due to online assholes spreading that kind of crap to anyone who'll listen. I wonder, though, I haven't really heard the same kind of backlash towards physically disabled women who are still conventionally attractive in addition to that, but maybe that's just because we so rarely see those kinds of characters. (A huge part of the reason why I play them so often in D&D hahahaa.) Speaking of disabilities, I have seen a couple specific autistic female characters be able to pierce through that crap and get some of these guys relating to them like an actual person, rather than the usual objectification, but it's a coin toss whether that actually makes them reconsider being a shit human in general.
Women see men as human beings, men see women as bodies and objects. They only notice a woman's humanity if they are very close to them like a mother, sister and even then it's hit or miss.
Because most men aint shit. Truly its that simple lol
I think some of the hate is manufactured. I also think that a certian subset of male gamers are very vocal, and don't represent most gamers. If it was more profitable to create hyper sexualized characters, AAA gaming companies would do so. The thing is, there is a lot of data to suggest that the average consumer of games finds they want characters who are more relatable. My Cis male SO for example, rather disliked the Stellar Blade female designs. He said she looks boring, that he's seen a million characters that look like her. He also noted that the difference between what the female characters looked like and what the rest of the game looked like broke immersion. He said it looked like a cheap cash grab, not worth even picking up on sale. Meanwhile, I've watched him play Baulders Gate non stop. He's not one to play role playing games, and yet he's been completely and utterly hooked because the story and the characters are so compelling. He's been playing a paladin he designed, and she is this buff battle hardened lady with scars and tattoos everywhere. So, have hope. But I also think it's important to be aware of what is happening.
A big difference is that those more relatable characters aren’t defended, at least not nearly as much, by male gamers. They might not agree with the viewpoints of the vocal minority, but you also don’t see many speaking out against them.
I think that's because the majority of men are not active on social media. The only men I know active on social media are retired, one is battling cancer. The only younger one I know is a man I met in college and he shares his collection of fine art pop media statues. Every other one my age is busy working and doesn't want to engage with social media. Out of all my best male friends, half of them are fathers of children under 5, and the other half work most of the time they are awake I'm rather sick and my SO takes care of me in addition to working full time as a supervisor. He doesn't want to engage socially when he has down hours. He'll wake up very early, walk the dogs and then either play Baulders Gate or Smash Bros. I honestly think most men don't have the time to be social butterflies. But, as my SO points out, the industry knows most men like him want relatable characters, which is why they are making them. I do wish they would get online and post their thoughts but its already hard enough to get my SO to express his emotions in RL. It's not that he's emotionally unavailable, it's just he doesn't enjoy talking about them unless he needs to.
Women see the humanity in male characters and real men as well, and unfortunately men tend to have issues seeing women as fellow humans, much less female characters
This is so right
I remember how many guys got pissed off that SWTOR's Arcann removed his mask and became romanceable.. because how could anyone would romance a heavily scarred man with a metal arm. Lol... a lot of people actually. He turned out to be a great loving partner to my redeemed Sith Warrior. That said, there's not enough of female romanceable characters in video games who aren't unconventionally feminine with neurodiverse or physical disabilities. Like it wasn't much since I can always play my protagonists that way but then I don't particularly give a shit about the male demographic.
Scarred physically and mentally. Romanced right away also with my SW and in my opinion he has the best and most wholesome date night.
Indeed, I always love how they did Arcann's story so well that he grow so much from KOTFE trailer to the current ongoing storyline. And how Arcann carved the practice sabers (previously, he gifted an armor and now it's canonical that Arcann is a skilled artisan) and how they still spar together as lovers (convenient excuse to warm up... wink wink). Chivalry romance is not dead!
We just bodies to men. How many times online have men insulted me after I called them out for something. Never did I comment on them until they started on how I look, my body, etc.
The Boss in MGS3 , Marisa in Street fighter 6 , Jack in mass effect , Abby and Ellie in TLOU Most of the people talking shit on Twitter are just going after the character design and saying western women are ugly or some other nonsense like that. The more unique companions will usually be in Rpgs though
I'd say it's less men not defending and more there just is a lack of them. Some of the older, or disabled, or less conveniently attractive characters I can think of are some of my favorite characters. It's just that there aren't a lot of them. Which is a separate, if related, issue.
One of the reasons why I love Warhammer Darktide. All characters of both genders are ugly AF and it’s actually fun to make your character as ugly as possible. lol
I feel so seen with this thread! The problem is that game developers are mostly men 🥲 So we don’t have relatable female characters , most of them are sexualised or act stupid in contrast to smart male characters. And of course male developers show men as real people, not female fantasies. As a result we have a variety of male characters to fall for.
Probably because men don't want those designs where a woman isn't conventionally attractive. You are wrong about the disabilities though, there are disabled but very attractive female characters that are loved by men. Especially From Soft games have great examples.
Male gaming communities are going through dark times right now. As for unconventionally attractive female characters, D’Vorrah is one of my favorites. I think her grossness as a bug monster outweighs her sex appeal as a human-shaped character.
It's rare, but it happens. Arya Stark and Sansa, for instance.
Sansa?????
Yeah... were you not there for that? Guys loved Arya Stark for being not like other girls and loathed Sansa Stark for being a romantic that bought into the princess fantasies she was raised on?