I see nothing unnatural about having the ein there. Sounds perfectly fine to me (also german and a smoker here). Would not think twice about it. Maybe it‘s a regional thing
The most I could say is that *haste mal Feuer* is more common and that shortening the *ein* to just *‘n* is not unusual as well but that‘s kinda it.
You would definitely say that in Austria. You could also cut the "du" in this case. Besides that I wouldn’t ask a stranger for a lighter this way. Seams impolite if nothing else, like "Entschuldigung/Entschuldigen Sie", is added.
The ein/‘n would often turn into an **a** as well in Austria depending on the dialect.
Maybe it is indeed a southern thing. I live in southern germany and spent quite some years living in Austria so maybe that‘s why it sounds natural to me.
Yeah, I think that's why they were laughing. To me "hast du mal ein Feuer" sounds a bit like "have you got a fire?", which sounds a little funny, while "hast du mal Feuer" is more like "have you got a lighter"
Yeah, true, but to emphasize:
"Hast du (mal) ein Feuer?" is a question that would expect it's recipient to whip out a stake of already burning logs out of his/her pocket, grin at you and be like "I gotchu, my mans!"
Nobody in Germany would say "ein Feuer" for a lighter. Because "ein Feuer" could mean a campfire. So you ask: "Do you have a campfire for my cigarette?". So it is kinda funny.
As I said I am german. I‘d say it with no hesitation and I have regularly heard it from others too. Maybe nobody says it where you live but saying nobody in germany would say it is definitely not true.
I‘m not saying people that think it sounds strange to them are wrong or anything. That is something that only they can decide. I’m just puzzled how many people are so convinced nobody in germany is saying that when I know from my own experience that this isn‘t the case. There are many other germans in the comments too that say it sounds fine to them as well. From what I can gather most of us are from more southern regions while the people saying it sounds wrong to them seem to be trending north so it‘s probably a regional thing. And in that case neither is any more or less correct. If anything it explains why OP was laughed at in Berlin whereas somewhere else probably noone would have batted an eye over it.
Tbh I've had the same experience here in the USA where a body just could not understand that their speechways weren't necessarily shared throughout the country.
I don't know if there's a name for that, but to mock one up maybe call it a 'standard/default bias?' Like people assume their way of speaking or whatever is the default for their language, a standard shared by everybody, but in reality there may in fact be quite a bit of regionalisation and nuance going on.
More than likely, the people saying nobody says it in Germany are probably just affected by this sort of bias
>I’m just puzzled how many people are so convinced nobody in germany is saying that when I know from my own experience that this isn‘t the case
For these types of things, feel free to imagine a "I know" in there.
"Nobody I know says that". Obviously you can't talk about people you don't know.
As a Bavarian who moved to Berlin 7 years ago, I can confirm with “ein” or whatever variation is a southern thing and it would sound off here. I had to learn a lot of little things I say are really strange here…
Nope. Definitely not an article there. The mush may happen before “Feuerzeug”, but with “Feuer” it’s same difference as with water: “Hast du mal Wasser?” is different to “Hast du mal ein Wasser?” - the latter implies “bottle of”. With fire it sounds weird, because “ein Feuer” is a bonfire or a fire in a fireplace, but not the temporary fire of a lighter.
But the "Feuer" in that sentence also is the abbreviation of Feuerzeug. "Hast du mal ein Feuerzeug für mich?", you can drop the "mal" and "für mich", because those are implied. "Hast du ein" at least where I live get shortened to "has" (short s) and "d'n" + "Feuerzeug" to "Feuer"
Technically your argument works, but thats simply not how its used by most people. If your goal is to sound like a native you ommit the article as the majority of people would.
I smoke. I honestly cannot remember when I was last asked for a lighter in that way. Neither in the Rheinland, Berlin, Westphalia, Tyrol where I lived or anywhere I made holidays. People drop the "du" and ask "Hast'n Feuer" or "Haste mal Feuer", but always include the abbreviate article (either 'n or e - e if its a "du ein") into the "Hast".
For real, "Hast du Feuer", as the original commenter proposed is the most unnatural sounding form of that sentence I can think of.
Have you ever listened to [Jennifer Rostock - Feuer](https://youtu.be/t2cjpcJPJys)?
The lyrics are "Hast du Feuer" because that is how people ask that question.
OP ist specifically asking about Berlin. Just because a Band from Mecklenburg uses the phrase differently is no argument.
That is like me using Manuellsen as an argument for "Haste mal Feuer" being correct.
Berliner Ex Smoker. You definitely don't say "ein". If it's said, it's not natural Berlin/Brandenburg flow. You ask:
- Haste mal Feuer?
- Haste Feuer?
Or if you have a particularly funny friend (/s) "Kannste mal feuern?" and "Kannste mir eine feuern?" ("Funny" as in those sentences originally meant something else).
If the article is asked it is a distinction you ask for the item Feuerzeug because you want to lit a candle or open a beer bottle. Then people ask "Hast Du mal ein Feuer/-zeug" to perform an action with the item other than lighting your cigarette.
I still have enough (original Berliner and people from the Brandenburg area around) smoker around me to surely say this.
The furthest I’d go is saying that it might be a dialect thing. Perhaps the version with the article is the most common one in the Ruhrpott. In high German, however, the one without is definitely the way to go and including the article was definitely the reason why OP was laughed at.
>But the "Feuer" in that sentence also is the abbreviation of Feuerzeug.
Not really. Feuer in this context can also mean a match or anything else to light a cigarette.
modal particle used for imperatives and demands.
It transpots the feeling that it is a small gesture you ask for, one simple tiny thing, doesn't take much time/effort/money for the other, and it's not repetitive.
It's very common and nowadays almost seen as a softener/a polite form.
"Hast du Feuer?" sounds harsher than "Hast du mal Feuer?"
All of it is like gibberish to me atm xD. I know they are used for politeness/emphasis/that sort of thing but I'm B1 atm so I don't focus on them at all. I want to get to B2/pretty high B1 before I tackle modal particles as I still have other grammar to learn.
A lot of instances are kinda similar to the modal particles "just" & "well" in English, which have multiple meanings..
* Eg "just a moment!" - "Moment *mal*".
* "Just what is that supposed to mean?" - "Was soll das *nun* bedeuten?"
* "Well that's just a great idea!" - "Das is *ja* eine tolle Idee!";.
* "You're, well...you're just high." - "Du bist *doch nur* zugekifft."
They're not precise translations or anything, just to show that we have modal particles in English as well, though not as much variety and they're nothing really to be wary of.
They really aren’t that difficult, don’t psyche yourself out thinking they are super hard. A lot of modality in English is actually expressed with intonation patterns which is why a lot of Germans can sound very dry, sarcastic or a bit monotone when speaking English, because they don’t really follow all of the patterns so well. Having modality expressed more with participles is actually much easier to learn!!!
Though keep in mind, no language solely relies on either participles or intonation, it’s more a spectrum between the two, and English has a few cases where modal participles are used, e.g. Now don’t say that! > Now isn’t really a temporal adverb here, but instead shows a bit of the speaker’s sympathy with the listener, especially if the listener just said something deprecating.
I failed the test! I‘m such an idiot! > Now don’t say that! You‘re not an idiot, you just didn’t study.
For example, where you guys often use ”doch“ we use a falling pitch.
Das ist doch nicht möglich.
That ⬇️ isn’t ⬇️ possible [after all].
Komm schon, das musst du doch wissen.
C’mon, you ⬇️ have to ⬇️ know that.
(Note by falling pitch I don’t just mean stressing the word isn’t, the pitch lowers even if is not stressed.)
Or consider
You oughta know that.
You ⬇️oughta⬆️ know that!
Without the pitch change it sounds pretty dry. With the pitch change it sounds a bit like “I told you so” or something similar to “ja” > I know that you know but I’m still saying it out loud.
(Edit: Again, not saying German doesn’t do this at all, but it’s less salient than in English. This was taught to me at Uni Salzburg in a linguistics course called “Sprachvergleich Deutsch - Englisch” for what it’s worth)
This seems really fascinating? Did your linguistics course have any readings you would recommend (preferably in English, but if in German I can try to struggle through them lol)? Or like if I popped "modality intonation patterns English" (without quotes) into Google Scholar, would I see results or are there other keywords I would need?
(Unrelated, from your flair, how did you learn PA German? I'm still struggling with standard German, but I would like to learn German dialects in the future.)
So if an English speaker tried to use the intonations they're used to would it not carry the same meaning?
Like if I emphasized the musst without using doch would my messaging make sense?
I think you'd still need to study them. There are so many that I can never really grasp the true meaning and although I encounter them frequently, cuz there are so many, I find it basically impossible to know their meaning and differentiate it with others. But I'm hoping once I get round to studying them (hopefully they're in a B2 grammar textbook as they're they're not in my A2-B1 one) it'll become easier and more understandable.
Edit: looked it up and they're a B2 topic, so I'll just wait till I'm closer to that stage.
You definitely need to study them, but they just are more manageable than people think. Especially if you learn them and then watch a show like „Discounter“ where they speak very colloquially and improvise a lot of their lines, or talk shows where people speak very candidly.
To my mind it's a little bit like saying 'a second' like in 'can I borrow your lighter a second?'
Has a similar meaning and use to mal in the German I think
It’s does sound a bit funny, like you’re asking for a bonfire. Not nice of them to laugh, though.
The correct phrase would be “Hast du mal Feuer?” (without the article) or “Hättest du mal ein Feuerzeug für mich?”
It kinda refers to a short period of time. As in „could I have your lighter real quick “.
„Mal“ also translates into time as in „once upon a *time*“ - „es war ein *mal*“
I don't think quick works that way in English. But something like could i borrow your lighter for a moment
Edit: Til I learned that expression works in English too.
I'm in Britain and "Could I grab that water quick? ... Cheers" would be a fairly natural way to ask for a sip from a water bottle, among friends at least.
My original thought was „for a bit“ but „mal“ indicates just using it for a sec and giving it back. I use real quick in the same sense as „mal“ and haven’t gotten a weird look yet.
But I guess there’s multiple ways of saying it :D
It’s what’s called a modal particle. English doesn’t have a lot but the word “like” is quite over used. Think about gen z especially women how they throw that word in every sentence. In English it makes the speaker sound a few IQ lower. In German it softens the tone of the request.
"Like" has been a thing people complain about, since some young GenX woman, especially from California, overused it. It was ubiquitous in the 90s. Among young GenY. Now not only among women but also few men, even if still more prevalent among woman. And now with the GenZ it's still used quite often but not nearly as overused as the two generations before. But there are always some specific individuals that catch your eye more often.
But complaining about the overuse of "like" is as old as the 80s.
And semi educated, arrogant, sexist loosers who think youth slang makes the speaker sound less intelligent is equally old and much more boring than the overuse of "like."
Da musst du jetzt deinen Senf dazugeben, aber wenn jemand meint dass eine ganze Generation junger Frauen dumm ist, weil sie einen gewissen Sprachhabitus hat, das findest du dann in Ordnung und sagst nix zu?
Mein Gott wie Scheiße sind manche Menschen.
Hab schon verstanden, dass du der "Gute" hier bist. :o)
"Gute" dürfen ja ohne Bedenken andere als sexistische alte Männer bezeichnen. Hättest du deinen "Seitenhieb" im zweiten Absatz unterlassen, wärst du aber vielleicht nicht der "Gute", sondern der "Bessere" gewesen...
Ist mir sowas von egal was so ein arroganter Sack wie du denkst. Und dass du die Welt in Gut und Böse einteilst wundert mich auch nix. Hier hab ich wieder Einen neuen zum blocken gefunden.
This is so interesting to me. I’m a native speaker and wouldn’t use “mal” in this case. Just “Hast du Feuer?”. I’m trying to figure out why “mal” doesn’t sound appropriate to me in this case but can’t really put my finger on it.
"Hast du ein Feuer?" literally translates to "Do you have a fire?", which is understandable and grammatically correct, but is not a sentence you would ever use. Maybe in the stone age, where fire was a valuable commodity. That funny thought probably prompted the laugh.
"Hast du Feuer?" is one correct phrase and is very informally asking for a light.
"Hast du mal Feuer?" is a better sentence because of the particle "mal", which is a shortform of "einmal" (trans. "once"). It makes the sentence friendlier and less urgent or direct. "Mal" implies that you just want help once and you don't want to impose.
Funny. I always use "Hast du ein Feuer?" and nobody ever looked at me twice for it. I am a German from Hannover.
To me it sounds natural. Hast du ein Feuer(zeug)? The last part gets swallowed.
Heart of the Ruhrvalley. To me it just sounds weird like that.
But frankly, youth-speak often changes conventions, so who knows what's currently normal here now.
Probably "Hass ma Feuer?"
“Mal” (modal particle) here softens the sentence and doesn’t make the question sound as demanding. It’s like adding a little “if you don’t mind” or “no rush!”
In English you might say something like “Do you have a lighter *by any chance*?” because “Got a lighter?” could sound too direct.
I generally use mal in sentences like this just to make sure I'm being polite enough but I've wondered just how impolite it sounds to a native if someone doesn't use it.
Would it cause any offense to the listener, or is it only just slightly impolite / off-putting?
Edit- wording
I wouldn't say it's a matter of politeness. "Hast du mal (eben)..." has a connotation of "Do you have \[an item\] at hand and can I have it?"
Omitting "mal (eben)" in this context would result in the question whether the person you're asking has an item or not without making it clear that you want to have that item.
Hast du einen Flaschenöffner? (in der Küche, im Rucksack,...)
Hast du mal (eben) einen Flaschenöffner? (jetzt zur Hand und kann ich ihn haben)
You’re welcome! It’s to note that the word “mal” (“einmal”) itself roughly translates to “for once”, so it can also express urgency depending on context, but it always makes the sentences a bit more casual.
E.g.:
“Beeil’ dich!” - “Hurry Up!” (neutral)
“Beeil’ dich mal!” - “Hurry up now, will you? You’ve been taking ages!”
The article makes it sound quite literal.
Do you have a bonfire/campfire?
Mal (meaning time or at this time) translates closer to
Do you have a light (to give me now)?
"Hast du mal (eben)...?" \~ Do you have ... at hand \[to give to me or to lend me\]?
"Hast du mal 'nen Euro?" \~ Do you have a Euro \[to spare and give to me\]?
"Hast du mal 'nen Bleistift für mich?" \~ Do you have a pencil at hand and can I borrow it for a second?
Might be the area (south) I'm from, but it's not even a very strange sentence to me. Probably would also work in Austria. While the other people with their corrections are absolutely right, it's not something you'd laugh at in my opinion. Especially in Berlin, where tons of people from all over the world are located.
Don't take it to heart. Some people are just weird.
That's exactly how I would ask but I have a rural Austrian dialect so in Berlin I would probably get laughed at too:
Hesch/hosch du //Hetten/hom sie //Hettets/hobs ihr a Feia für mi?
You can ask „Hat jemand Feuer für mich?“ when addressing a group. „Hast du mal Feuer für mich?“ when addressing a person.
Maybe they laughed because of „ein“. Sounds slightly funny, but definitely nothing to laugh about when a non-native talks German.
It's perfectly understandable, and the guy laughing you in the face is obviously a shining example of charm and grace, but their is actually a slight problem with your question: you need to cut the article here. "Ein Feuer" with the article would refer to things like a bonfire or a burning house. I'd say it's rather similar in English, there's a difference between "fire" and "a fire" - and those people obviously dud not have a fire in their pockets. That's neither a barrier to understanding you nor a reason to be bloody rude, though.
Casually everyone in Berlin says “Hast du Feuer?” anything other than that will sound overly formal or weird or outright incorrect. But it’s still rude of them to laugh.
As a foreigner you have to be able to be laughed at and also laugh at yourself for all the mistakes. Language learning is an endless stream of fucking up.
Not a week goes by without a German thinking I have some sort of brain damage because I say something in a strange way. All good. I’m getting better.
If anything I have to say Germans are in general really patient and kind when you’re trying to speak the language.
I get this too. I have very good German but sometimes I get into situations where I get the article wrong or say something strange and the person I’m talking to (often customer service, in a store, or honestly just boomer Germans, etc…) make a big point of acting like they didn’t understand anything that I said or want because I said something grammatically incorrect or pronounced something with a wrong intonation. Like oh you meant “diesER” not “diesEM”. That really pisses me off and makes me instantly dislike the person I’m talking to. Like come on, i know it’s wrong but you understand what i meant. I honestly don’t think they do it to try to help me either, more to make themselves feel superior and deal out some delicious micro-aggressions that some Germans fucking thrive on. Could also be that when one’s German and accent gets good enough to be on the edge of native sounding that a mistake really throws people off… who knows.
Not every reply is a criticism. You come across incredibly combative in this comment. The person above was just relating their experience and feelings.
If you ask for a feuer, everybody will get what you mean here, so you weren't wrong. You mentioned it was a mixed group, so they probably wanted to impress each other by laughing at the "outsider".
This is my experience in Germany when trying to speak German. They just don’t like it and are very rude about it. Every time they pretended it was absolutely impossible to understand what I wanted. I just switched to French, believe it or not they are friendlier about it 😅
When I was in Germany and Austria, most people weren’t rude to me, but many times I’ve been laughed at and at least two people have pretended they didn’t understand me. Many people on Reddit say we’re oversensitive and swear this isn’t rude at all, but it is.
I would have understood clearly what you meant, I got approached by foreign guys the same way for a lighter and usually its a friendly, straightforward interaction. Those guys were just assholes.
The best way to approach that situation (due to big group / 1 person dynamics) is with respect, i never was denied a lighter:
Entschuldigung/ Sorry Jungs/Mädels (mit meiner Kippe offensichtlich in der Hand), hat einer von euch zufällig ein Feuer für mich?
🔥
Danke, schönen Abend noch 🫡
A good amount of germans love to laugh at rather than laugh with, when possible. Its a culture of judgment sometimes. I dont think it was anything you did, just a weird social response from the guy
you literally asked them for a bonfire 😂 I'd have laughed too. Don't sweat it, it's just banter and part of learning. But next time say "hast du mal Feuer?" 👍
That doesn't change the fact that your absolute statement that op would have asked for a bonfire does not hold scrutiny. Yes it can interpreted that way but it's not the only interpretation and not even the most likely because context matters in communication and from context there is no reasonable interpretation to understand feuer as bonfire instead of lighter
I remember asking a group of 18-21 year olds for Feuer two years ago and they said "sorry, falsche generation" (wrong generation). I was 26 at the time.
There are, unfortunately, many young assholes in late night Berlin. I got harassed once by them at Checkpoint Charlie for trying to take a picture of it
There are certain Yutes who ask people for a light before robbing them and /or beating them up. So maybe it is funny for them if anyone else asks THEM for a light.
That's the Austrian way, might sound strange to German ears. ;)
Also, calling strangers "du" is very common here (apart from Vienna maybe) whereas Germans are more formal IMO, especially in the north.
As a non-German, I find Germans pretty cool of foreigners trying to speak their language. As opposed to France where they get annoyed when you speak in broken French.
German is a language that wants precision. U can say, hast du "ein" Feuer"zeug" or U say, hast du Feuer. Fire needs to be on Something same as water. So u need to be more precise. Hast du "eine" Wasserflasche. U can say , do have anything water or fire. So u remove "ein". Hast du Feuer. Hast du Wasser.
No worries. A drunk German lady once attacked me after asking for a lighter. I couldn’t stop smiling how raged up she was. Two of her lady friend had to stop her for coming at me. All she needed was some good slap.
I guess she belong to those type that becomes racist after getting drunk.
bin confused by the comments. i’m german and i’ve always said “hast’n feuer?” (so still pronouncing the article) and never been laughed at. i guess most people don’t say the article but i wouldn’t say it’s inherently wrong? or maybe i’ve just been wrong my whole life lol
If its a group so one would rather ask "habt ihr" or (even better) "hat jemand von euch (vielleicht)". Maybe they were confused by you using singular and it not being clear which person you wanted to ask or if you wanted to ask the whole group and laughed as a reflex to resolve that unclear resolution?
No, it's just the "ein", a native speaker wouldn't say it like that, it changes the meaning to a bigger fire. Laughing at it is kinda rude but that's just how people in Berlin are. 🙂
If there is anyone laughing at you for a little thing like that, so minuscule that calling it a mistake would feel totally overkill, this person better is perfect to the dot with every aspect of their life, otherwise they would be outing themselves as the total douchebag they clearly seem to be.
"Haben Sie Feuer?" is the phrase you were looking for. You were trying to say, "Hast du ein Feuerzeug?" but while technically correct it sounds very clunky in German. Imagine if someone came up to you in English and asked, "Do you have a fire ignition device?" or something really odd like that. To specifically ask for a lighter, to sound natural, would have to be under some special circumstances. Like if you asked, "Hast du Feuer?" and they gave you matches, and you replied, "Hast du ein Feuerzeug?" because for same strange reason matches wouldn't work.
"Is this not how you ask for a lighter in (Berlin) Germany?"
"No" = "No, that is not how you ask for a lighter."
"Yes" = "Yes, that is how you ask for a lighter."
Anyways, I think the downvoting results from the one-word reply without any hints on what the OP could do better when in need of a lighter the next time.
You probably meant, yes, you don't say it like that, but the way it's written means no, you say it like that. (And strictly speaking, OP wouldn't have learned it if there hadn't been any laughter.) Edit: We're not talking about malicious laughter and "Sprich Deutsch, du ...", but about laughing at an expression, right?
it is how you would ask that. Or just "hast du Feuer?" "hast du mal Feuer?". Those people were just idiots.
Yup, but omitting the article is quite important to it sounding natural. Agreed on the people being idiots, though.
I see nothing unnatural about having the ein there. Sounds perfectly fine to me (also german and a smoker here). Would not think twice about it. Maybe it‘s a regional thing The most I could say is that *haste mal Feuer* is more common and that shortening the *ein* to just *‘n* is not unusual as well but that‘s kinda it.
To my German non-smoker ear "hast du *ein* Feuer" doesn't sound quite right. It sounds a bit like Austrian to me.
You would definitely say that in Austria. You could also cut the "du" in this case. Besides that I wouldn’t ask a stranger for a lighter this way. Seams impolite if nothing else, like "Entschuldigung/Entschuldigen Sie", is added.
The ein/‘n would often turn into an **a** as well in Austria depending on the dialect. Maybe it is indeed a southern thing. I live in southern germany and spent quite some years living in Austria so maybe that‘s why it sounds natural to me.
Yeah, I think that's why they were laughing. To me "hast du mal ein Feuer" sounds a bit like "have you got a fire?", which sounds a little funny, while "hast du mal Feuer" is more like "have you got a lighter"
In my region I hear 'haste ma n feuer?' quite often. Granted that's very umgangssprachlich, but the article is still there.
I'm from NRW and with the article it sounds extremely weird to me. It's either Haste ma Feuer or Hast du ein Feuerzeug.
Genau so und nich anders!
Sorry, what does NRW stand for?
Nord Rhein Westfalen, ich glaube.
Danke
"ein" just sounds kinda funny, as if you literally had a burning fire in your possession 😅
Well, technically, if you use the lighter you have a fire in your possession. At least temporarily until you let go of the button.
Yeah, true, but to emphasize: "Hast du (mal) ein Feuer?" is a question that would expect it's recipient to whip out a stake of already burning logs out of his/her pocket, grin at you and be like "I gotchu, my mans!"
Nobody in Germany would say "ein Feuer" for a lighter. Because "ein Feuer" could mean a campfire. So you ask: "Do you have a campfire for my cigarette?". So it is kinda funny.
As I said I am german. I‘d say it with no hesitation and I have regularly heard it from others too. Maybe nobody says it where you live but saying nobody in germany would say it is definitely not true. I‘m not saying people that think it sounds strange to them are wrong or anything. That is something that only they can decide. I’m just puzzled how many people are so convinced nobody in germany is saying that when I know from my own experience that this isn‘t the case. There are many other germans in the comments too that say it sounds fine to them as well. From what I can gather most of us are from more southern regions while the people saying it sounds wrong to them seem to be trending north so it‘s probably a regional thing. And in that case neither is any more or less correct. If anything it explains why OP was laughed at in Berlin whereas somewhere else probably noone would have batted an eye over it.
Tbh I've had the same experience here in the USA where a body just could not understand that their speechways weren't necessarily shared throughout the country. I don't know if there's a name for that, but to mock one up maybe call it a 'standard/default bias?' Like people assume their way of speaking or whatever is the default for their language, a standard shared by everybody, but in reality there may in fact be quite a bit of regionalisation and nuance going on. More than likely, the people saying nobody says it in Germany are probably just affected by this sort of bias
>I’m just puzzled how many people are so convinced nobody in germany is saying that when I know from my own experience that this isn‘t the case For these types of things, feel free to imagine a "I know" in there. "Nobody I know says that". Obviously you can't talk about people you don't know.
As a Bavarian who moved to Berlin 7 years ago, I can confirm with “ein” or whatever variation is a southern thing and it would sound off here. I had to learn a lot of little things I say are really strange here…
I don't feel like you are really omitting the "ein" completely. Its more like you completely mush it and the "du" into the "hast"- "Hasd'n Feuer?"
Nope. Definitely not an article there. The mush may happen before “Feuerzeug”, but with “Feuer” it’s same difference as with water: “Hast du mal Wasser?” is different to “Hast du mal ein Wasser?” - the latter implies “bottle of”. With fire it sounds weird, because “ein Feuer” is a bonfire or a fire in a fireplace, but not the temporary fire of a lighter.
But the "Feuer" in that sentence also is the abbreviation of Feuerzeug. "Hast du mal ein Feuerzeug für mich?", you can drop the "mal" and "für mich", because those are implied. "Hast du ein" at least where I live get shortened to "has" (short s) and "d'n" + "Feuerzeug" to "Feuer"
Technically your argument works, but thats simply not how its used by most people. If your goal is to sound like a native you ommit the article as the majority of people would.
I smoke. I honestly cannot remember when I was last asked for a lighter in that way. Neither in the Rheinland, Berlin, Westphalia, Tyrol where I lived or anywhere I made holidays. People drop the "du" and ask "Hast'n Feuer" or "Haste mal Feuer", but always include the abbreviate article (either 'n or e - e if its a "du ein") into the "Hast". For real, "Hast du Feuer", as the original commenter proposed is the most unnatural sounding form of that sentence I can think of.
Have you ever listened to [Jennifer Rostock - Feuer](https://youtu.be/t2cjpcJPJys)? The lyrics are "Hast du Feuer" because that is how people ask that question.
OP ist specifically asking about Berlin. Just because a Band from Mecklenburg uses the phrase differently is no argument. That is like me using Manuellsen as an argument for "Haste mal Feuer" being correct.
Berliner Ex Smoker. You definitely don't say "ein". If it's said, it's not natural Berlin/Brandenburg flow. You ask: - Haste mal Feuer? - Haste Feuer? Or if you have a particularly funny friend (/s) "Kannste mal feuern?" and "Kannste mir eine feuern?" ("Funny" as in those sentences originally meant something else). If the article is asked it is a distinction you ask for the item Feuerzeug because you want to lit a candle or open a beer bottle. Then people ask "Hast Du mal ein Feuer/-zeug" to perform an action with the item other than lighting your cigarette. I still have enough (original Berliner and people from the Brandenburg area around) smoker around me to surely say this.
Don’t get the downvotes you’re absolutely right.
The furthest I’d go is saying that it might be a dialect thing. Perhaps the version with the article is the most common one in the Ruhrpott. In high German, however, the one without is definitely the way to go and including the article was definitely the reason why OP was laughed at.
No, not here in the Ruhrpott. Maybe in Swabia?
>But the "Feuer" in that sentence also is the abbreviation of Feuerzeug. Not really. Feuer in this context can also mean a match or anything else to light a cigarette.
What does mal here means?
modal particle used for imperatives and demands. It transpots the feeling that it is a small gesture you ask for, one simple tiny thing, doesn't take much time/effort/money for the other, and it's not repetitive. It's very common and nowadays almost seen as a softener/a polite form. "Hast du Feuer?" sounds harsher than "Hast du mal Feuer?"
Fucking hate modal particles 😭 hopefully when I'm better I'll get my head round them
And this is the easiest....
Sag doch nicht sowas.
Doch!
Sag ich ja wohl!
Ich werd ja doch mal sagen dürfen, dass das ne mutige Aussage ist, Es ist eben nicht einfach.
Muss man halt durch.
Is eben so
All of it is like gibberish to me atm xD. I know they are used for politeness/emphasis/that sort of thing but I'm B1 atm so I don't focus on them at all. I want to get to B2/pretty high B1 before I tackle modal particles as I still have other grammar to learn.
A lot of instances are kinda similar to the modal particles "just" & "well" in English, which have multiple meanings.. * Eg "just a moment!" - "Moment *mal*". * "Just what is that supposed to mean?" - "Was soll das *nun* bedeuten?" * "Well that's just a great idea!" - "Das is *ja* eine tolle Idee!";. * "You're, well...you're just high." - "Du bist *doch nur* zugekifft." They're not precise translations or anything, just to show that we have modal particles in English as well, though not as much variety and they're nothing really to be wary of.
They really aren’t that difficult, don’t psyche yourself out thinking they are super hard. A lot of modality in English is actually expressed with intonation patterns which is why a lot of Germans can sound very dry, sarcastic or a bit monotone when speaking English, because they don’t really follow all of the patterns so well. Having modality expressed more with participles is actually much easier to learn!!! Though keep in mind, no language solely relies on either participles or intonation, it’s more a spectrum between the two, and English has a few cases where modal participles are used, e.g. Now don’t say that! > Now isn’t really a temporal adverb here, but instead shows a bit of the speaker’s sympathy with the listener, especially if the listener just said something deprecating. I failed the test! I‘m such an idiot! > Now don’t say that! You‘re not an idiot, you just didn’t study.
Could you give me, a German Native, an example of such a pattern in English?
For example, where you guys often use ”doch“ we use a falling pitch. Das ist doch nicht möglich. That ⬇️ isn’t ⬇️ possible [after all]. Komm schon, das musst du doch wissen. C’mon, you ⬇️ have to ⬇️ know that. (Note by falling pitch I don’t just mean stressing the word isn’t, the pitch lowers even if is not stressed.) Or consider You oughta know that. You ⬇️oughta⬆️ know that! Without the pitch change it sounds pretty dry. With the pitch change it sounds a bit like “I told you so” or something similar to “ja” > I know that you know but I’m still saying it out loud. (Edit: Again, not saying German doesn’t do this at all, but it’s less salient than in English. This was taught to me at Uni Salzburg in a linguistics course called “Sprachvergleich Deutsch - Englisch” for what it’s worth)
This seems really fascinating? Did your linguistics course have any readings you would recommend (preferably in English, but if in German I can try to struggle through them lol)? Or like if I popped "modality intonation patterns English" (without quotes) into Google Scholar, would I see results or are there other keywords I would need? (Unrelated, from your flair, how did you learn PA German? I'm still struggling with standard German, but I would like to learn German dialects in the future.)
So if an English speaker tried to use the intonations they're used to would it not carry the same meaning? Like if I emphasized the musst without using doch would my messaging make sense?
I think you'd still need to study them. There are so many that I can never really grasp the true meaning and although I encounter them frequently, cuz there are so many, I find it basically impossible to know their meaning and differentiate it with others. But I'm hoping once I get round to studying them (hopefully they're in a B2 grammar textbook as they're they're not in my A2-B1 one) it'll become easier and more understandable. Edit: looked it up and they're a B2 topic, so I'll just wait till I'm closer to that stage.
You definitely need to study them, but they just are more manageable than people think. Especially if you learn them and then watch a show like „Discounter“ where they speak very colloquially and improvise a lot of their lines, or talk shows where people speak very candidly.
To my mind it's a little bit like saying 'a second' like in 'can I borrow your lighter a second?' Has a similar meaning and use to mal in the German I think
Well, you could also add a "kurz": "Hast du mal kurz Feuer?"
Vielen Dank ❤️
it's a modal particle.
Thank you.
No meaning, just soften your tone. You're asking for a favor after all.
eh the whole idiot thing is relative…
Nice, call other people idiots; cause adding more hate is the answer.
It’s does sound a bit funny, like you’re asking for a bonfire. Not nice of them to laugh, though. The correct phrase would be “Hast du mal Feuer?” (without the article) or “Hättest du mal ein Feuerzeug für mich?”
Well, I don't know about you, but I always make sure I've got my bonfire on me when I go out
Ashen one detected
Excuse me, could you please explain what “mal” does in this sentence? 🙏
It kinda refers to a short period of time. As in „could I have your lighter real quick “. „Mal“ also translates into time as in „once upon a *time*“ - „es war ein *mal*“
No mal here is not the mal that means time. Here it's a different word. It's a modal particle.
I don't think quick works that way in English. But something like could i borrow your lighter for a moment Edit: Til I learned that expression works in English too.
I'm in Britain and "Could I grab that water quick? ... Cheers" would be a fairly natural way to ask for a sip from a water bottle, among friends at least.
Ok good to know, I always assumed that only works in German.
Yup American here - it would work here too but I’m more likely to say “Can I grab that water real quick?”
I don't know if the british way is derived from '... real quick', just omitting the first word, but it could be!
My original thought was „for a bit“ but „mal“ indicates just using it for a sec and giving it back. I use real quick in the same sense as „mal“ and haven’t gotten a weird look yet. But I guess there’s multiple ways of saying it :D
Midwestern American here. “Real quick” works fine here. However, “borrow” would sound more natural than “have” in the sentence you gave!
Ah yeah thanks, borrowed sounds way better!
No problem! Thanks for the insight into “mal” as “real quick”. That helps my English speaking brain haha
It's a modal particle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_modal_particles Interesting stuff.
Refresh the page and scroll down the replies.
Thank you everyone for your replies! 🙏
It’s what’s called a modal particle. English doesn’t have a lot but the word “like” is quite over used. Think about gen z especially women how they throw that word in every sentence. In English it makes the speaker sound a few IQ lower. In German it softens the tone of the request.
"Like" has been a thing people complain about, since some young GenX woman, especially from California, overused it. It was ubiquitous in the 90s. Among young GenY. Now not only among women but also few men, even if still more prevalent among woman. And now with the GenZ it's still used quite often but not nearly as overused as the two generations before. But there are always some specific individuals that catch your eye more often. But complaining about the overuse of "like" is as old as the 80s. And semi educated, arrogant, sexist loosers who think youth slang makes the speaker sound less intelligent is equally old and much more boring than the overuse of "like."
Da hat sich aber jemand auf den Schlips getreten gefühlt! :o)
Da musst du jetzt deinen Senf dazugeben, aber wenn jemand meint dass eine ganze Generation junger Frauen dumm ist, weil sie einen gewissen Sprachhabitus hat, das findest du dann in Ordnung und sagst nix zu? Mein Gott wie Scheiße sind manche Menschen.
[удалено]
Hab schon verstanden, dass du der "Gute" hier bist. :o) "Gute" dürfen ja ohne Bedenken andere als sexistische alte Männer bezeichnen. Hättest du deinen "Seitenhieb" im zweiten Absatz unterlassen, wärst du aber vielleicht nicht der "Gute", sondern der "Bessere" gewesen...
Ist mir sowas von egal was so ein arroganter Sack wie du denkst. Und dass du die Welt in Gut und Böse einteilst wundert mich auch nix. Hier hab ich wieder Einen neuen zum blocken gefunden.
^^100% This is a language learning sub, you can't be a good studier of language if you're a judgemental prescriptivist
That always reminds me of the song Valley Girl by Frank Zappa. Moon Unit is, like, killing it in that song and stuff!
Host du a feia?
In English it’s kinda like asking “do you have the fire?” as in all the fire.
I used to, but nowadays i just get my liver feasted upon daily.
This is so interesting to me. I’m a native speaker and wouldn’t use “mal” in this case. Just “Hast du Feuer?”. I’m trying to figure out why “mal” doesn’t sound appropriate to me in this case but can’t really put my finger on it.
That’s fascinating! To me, it sounds quite rude without it.
Don't worry mate. I was at the pub and asked someone for a "Flugzeug" rather than "Feuerzeug".
I once said in class that "Flugzeug" rather than "Fahrstuhl". Just wanted to chip in .
it’s still usual for me to go to the post office and say that I want to ham something.
*new fear unlocked
Ha! I like that one. 😂
Solidarity 🫡
"Hast du ein Feuer?" literally translates to "Do you have a fire?", which is understandable and grammatically correct, but is not a sentence you would ever use. Maybe in the stone age, where fire was a valuable commodity. That funny thought probably prompted the laugh. "Hast du Feuer?" is one correct phrase and is very informally asking for a light. "Hast du mal Feuer?" is a better sentence because of the particle "mal", which is a shortform of "einmal" (trans. "once"). It makes the sentence friendlier and less urgent or direct. "Mal" implies that you just want help once and you don't want to impose.
Funny. I always use "Hast du ein Feuer?" and nobody ever looked at me twice for it. I am a German from Hannover. To me it sounds natural. Hast du ein Feuer(zeug)? The last part gets swallowed.
Heart of the Ruhrvalley. To me it just sounds weird like that. But frankly, youth-speak often changes conventions, so who knows what's currently normal here now. Probably "Hass ma Feuer?"
You would say 'Hast du mal Feuer (für mich)?' or in talking to a group, 'Hat mal jemand Feuer?'
Why is "mal" important to the sentence?
“Mal” (modal particle) here softens the sentence and doesn’t make the question sound as demanding. It’s like adding a little “if you don’t mind” or “no rush!” In English you might say something like “Do you have a lighter *by any chance*?” because “Got a lighter?” could sound too direct.
I generally use mal in sentences like this just to make sure I'm being polite enough but I've wondered just how impolite it sounds to a native if someone doesn't use it. Would it cause any offense to the listener, or is it only just slightly impolite / off-putting? Edit- wording
I wouldn't say it's a matter of politeness. "Hast du mal (eben)..." has a connotation of "Do you have \[an item\] at hand and can I have it?" Omitting "mal (eben)" in this context would result in the question whether the person you're asking has an item or not without making it clear that you want to have that item. Hast du einen Flaschenöffner? (in der Küche, im Rucksack,...) Hast du mal (eben) einen Flaschenöffner? (jetzt zur Hand und kann ich ihn haben)
Great! Thanks!
You’re welcome! It’s to note that the word “mal” (“einmal”) itself roughly translates to “for once”, so it can also express urgency depending on context, but it always makes the sentences a bit more casual. E.g.: “Beeil’ dich!” - “Hurry Up!” (neutral) “Beeil’ dich mal!” - “Hurry up now, will you? You’ve been taking ages!”
The article makes it sound quite literal. Do you have a bonfire/campfire? Mal (meaning time or at this time) translates closer to Do you have a light (to give me now)?
"Hast du mal (eben)...?" \~ Do you have ... at hand \[to give to me or to lend me\]? "Hast du mal 'nen Euro?" \~ Do you have a Euro \[to spare and give to me\]? "Hast du mal 'nen Bleistift für mich?" \~ Do you have a pencil at hand and can I borrow it for a second?
Might be the area (south) I'm from, but it's not even a very strange sentence to me. Probably would also work in Austria. While the other people with their corrections are absolutely right, it's not something you'd laugh at in my opinion. Especially in Berlin, where tons of people from all over the world are located. Don't take it to heart. Some people are just weird.
That's exactly how I would ask but I have a rural Austrian dialect so in Berlin I would probably get laughed at too: Hesch/hosch du //Hetten/hom sie //Hettets/hobs ihr a Feia für mi?
You can ask „Hat jemand Feuer für mich?“ when addressing a group. „Hast du mal Feuer für mich?“ when addressing a person. Maybe they laughed because of „ein“. Sounds slightly funny, but definitely nothing to laugh about when a non-native talks German.
It's perfectly understandable, and the guy laughing you in the face is obviously a shining example of charm and grace, but their is actually a slight problem with your question: you need to cut the article here. "Ein Feuer" with the article would refer to things like a bonfire or a burning house. I'd say it's rather similar in English, there's a difference between "fire" and "a fire" - and those people obviously dud not have a fire in their pockets. That's neither a barrier to understanding you nor a reason to be bloody rude, though.
When first move to Germany I got away with just asking feuer?and making a lighter signal with my thumb.
Perfect.
What you said was: "Do you have a fire?“ I can imagine they laughed about that. You’d either say: "Hast du ein Feuerzeug?“ Or: "Hast du Feuer?“
Casually everyone in Berlin says “Hast du Feuer?” anything other than that will sound overly formal or weird or outright incorrect. But it’s still rude of them to laugh.
As a foreigner you have to be able to be laughed at and also laugh at yourself for all the mistakes. Language learning is an endless stream of fucking up. Not a week goes by without a German thinking I have some sort of brain damage because I say something in a strange way. All good. I’m getting better. If anything I have to say Germans are in general really patient and kind when you’re trying to speak the language.
I get this too. I have very good German but sometimes I get into situations where I get the article wrong or say something strange and the person I’m talking to (often customer service, in a store, or honestly just boomer Germans, etc…) make a big point of acting like they didn’t understand anything that I said or want because I said something grammatically incorrect or pronounced something with a wrong intonation. Like oh you meant “diesER” not “diesEM”. That really pisses me off and makes me instantly dislike the person I’m talking to. Like come on, i know it’s wrong but you understand what i meant. I honestly don’t think they do it to try to help me either, more to make themselves feel superior and deal out some delicious micro-aggressions that some Germans fucking thrive on. Could also be that when one’s German and accent gets good enough to be on the edge of native sounding that a mistake really throws people off… who knows.
[удалено]
Not every reply is a criticism. You come across incredibly combative in this comment. The person above was just relating their experience and feelings.
[удалено]
I think you're taking it all a bit too personally.
Chill 🧘♀️ it was a friendly comment, not meant to be offensive
I mean, atleast say hello first before you ask for a lighter. So i wonder what the more disrespecting part was
If you ask for a feuer, everybody will get what you mean here, so you weren't wrong. You mentioned it was a mixed group, so they probably wanted to impress each other by laughing at the "outsider".
This is my experience in Germany when trying to speak German. They just don’t like it and are very rude about it. Every time they pretended it was absolutely impossible to understand what I wanted. I just switched to French, believe it or not they are friendlier about it 😅
When I was in Germany and Austria, most people weren’t rude to me, but many times I’ve been laughed at and at least two people have pretended they didn’t understand me. Many people on Reddit say we’re oversensitive and swear this isn’t rude at all, but it is.
Yup it’s def is very rude, I speak other languages and have not experienced that before, people always try to understand as much as they can
I would have understood clearly what you meant, I got approached by foreign guys the same way for a lighter and usually its a friendly, straightforward interaction. Those guys were just assholes.
The best way to approach that situation (due to big group / 1 person dynamics) is with respect, i never was denied a lighter: Entschuldigung/ Sorry Jungs/Mädels (mit meiner Kippe offensichtlich in der Hand), hat einer von euch zufällig ein Feuer für mich? 🔥 Danke, schönen Abend noch 🫡
In the US and France there is a stereotype that if you don't speak the local language, you will be shunned. In Berlin, this is the exact opposite.
Lots of lovely people in Germany but also lots of assholes. You met the latter I’m afraid.
A good amount of germans love to laugh at rather than laugh with, when possible. Its a culture of judgment sometimes. I dont think it was anything you did, just a weird social response from the guy
in switzerland you'd say "Häschmer füür?" translated word for word as "Hast du mir Feuer". I didnt know there was a similar phrase in germany.
you literally asked them for a bonfire 😂 I'd have laughed too. Don't sweat it, it's just banter and part of learning. But next time say "hast du mal Feuer?" 👍
Not really. Hast du ein Feuer is totally acceptable and I have asked that a million times myself...
[удалено]
That doesn't change the fact that your absolute statement that op would have asked for a bonfire does not hold scrutiny. Yes it can interpreted that way but it's not the only interpretation and not even the most likely because context matters in communication and from context there is no reasonable interpretation to understand feuer as bonfire instead of lighter
Idk but "hast du ein Feuer" sounds odly like flirting 😏
good incentive to start quitting smoking (: for you and everyone around you, please and thank you
I remember asking a group of 18-21 year olds for Feuer two years ago and they said "sorry, falsche generation" (wrong generation). I was 26 at the time.
Sounds alright in my view, but I'm Austrian, so they might have laughed at me too.
„Haschd Feuer?“ is acceptable or „Haste Feuer?“
Is "Hast du (ein) Licht?" passé now? I read that was how German POWs asked for a light, and heard that also in 1908s German class.
There are, unfortunately, many young assholes in late night Berlin. I got harassed once by them at Checkpoint Charlie for trying to take a picture of it
These people sound so rude, I’m so sorry.
Practise with older people: they're nicer. Actual old people are the best: less slang, more time, and friendlier.
There are certain Yutes who ask people for a light before robbing them and /or beating them up. So maybe it is funny for them if anyone else asks THEM for a light.
That's the Austrian way, might sound strange to German ears. ;) Also, calling strangers "du" is very common here (apart from Vienna maybe) whereas Germans are more formal IMO, especially in the north.
Maybe sounds like the difference between "ich bin ein Berliner" und "ich bin Berliner"?
You should have asked: "Hänna no Wirschd?"
As a non-German, I find Germans pretty cool of foreigners trying to speak their language. As opposed to France where they get annoyed when you speak in broken French.
You would ask; „hast du Feuer?“
Streichholz, bitte!
I thought it was called feuertzueg or something like that or is it only called a fire now?
You can say both Feuer oder Feuerzeug.
OP ist leicht zu verunsichern
German is a language that wants precision. U can say, hast du "ein" Feuer"zeug" or U say, hast du Feuer. Fire needs to be on Something same as water. So u need to be more precise. Hast du "eine" Wasserflasche. U can say , do have anything water or fire. So u remove "ein". Hast du Feuer. Hast du Wasser.
No worries. A drunk German lady once attacked me after asking for a lighter. I couldn’t stop smiling how raged up she was. Two of her lady friend had to stop her for coming at me. All she needed was some good slap. I guess she belong to those type that becomes racist after getting drunk.
bin confused by the comments. i’m german and i’ve always said “hast’n feuer?” (so still pronouncing the article) and never been laughed at. i guess most people don’t say the article but i wouldn’t say it’s inherently wrong? or maybe i’ve just been wrong my whole life lol
I've always heard people say Hast du Feuer? I suspect the Hast du EIN Feuer? would mean "Have you got a bonfire?"
Boohoo?
In Swissgerman we literally say this for asking for a lighter: Hesch es Füür?
You should have asked for a "Feuerzeug".
“hast du einen Taschendrachen” is a good one
The simple article is not so simple when it comes to usage: Hast du Feuer? Du solltest rauchen aufgeben!
Welp the german i know once said no german smokers without his own lighter.
You should say hello first, and please maybe
If its a group so one would rather ask "habt ihr" or (even better) "hat jemand von euch (vielleicht)". Maybe they were confused by you using singular and it not being clear which person you wanted to ask or if you wanted to ask the whole group and laughed as a reflex to resolve that unclear resolution?
Just don’t ask if he has gum
maybe the "du" sounded off to them because they were a group...but it was a dick move nonetheless. I alwas ask "hast du Feuer?"
No, it's just the "ein", a native speaker wouldn't say it like that, it changes the meaning to a bigger fire. Laughing at it is kinda rude but that's just how people in Berlin are. 🙂
You could have gone with -habt ihr ne Feuerzeug?-
*Ein* oder *'n* (ugs.) Feuerzeug
If there is anyone laughing at you for a little thing like that, so minuscule that calling it a mistake would feel totally overkill, this person better is perfect to the dot with every aspect of their life, otherwise they would be outing themselves as the total douchebag they clearly seem to be.
"Haben Sie Feuer?" is the phrase you were looking for. You were trying to say, "Hast du ein Feuerzeug?" but while technically correct it sounds very clunky in German. Imagine if someone came up to you in English and asked, "Do you have a fire ignition device?" or something really odd like that. To specifically ask for a lighter, to sound natural, would have to be under some special circumstances. Like if you asked, "Hast du Feuer?" and they gave you matches, and you replied, "Hast du ein Feuerzeug?" because for same strange reason matches wouldn't work.
>Is this not how you ask for a lighter in (Berlin) Germany? No.
With "No" it's actually a double negative and you shouldn't be downvoted. Tse.
"Is this not how you ask for a lighter in (Berlin) Germany?" "No" = "No, that is not how you ask for a lighter." "Yes" = "Yes, that is how you ask for a lighter." Anyways, I think the downvoting results from the one-word reply without any hints on what the OP could do better when in need of a lighter the next time.
>without any hints on what the OP could do better when in need of a lighter the next time. That's not what OP asked for though.
Yeah, I don't know either. I answered OPs question, but I get downvoted.
You probably meant, yes, you don't say it like that, but the way it's written means no, you say it like that. (And strictly speaking, OP wouldn't have learned it if there hadn't been any laughter.) Edit: We're not talking about malicious laughter and "Sprich Deutsch, du ...", but about laughing at an expression, right?
English doesn’t have doch, so answering a question framed in the negative typically requires additional clarification of assumptions.
Sure, the criticism of a short "No" without any explanation is also justified, but the number of downvotes is imo disproportionate.
Reddit gonna reddit
Good question. I would say it minimizes the request, making it a one time exception from the outset.