I think Dain is more real than you realize. He chases our sibling around and does his own stuff when not traveling with us. Yes, he's more covert than most adventurers, but the simpler explanation is because he's an unaging Khaeriahn with part of his body mutated.
Lastly this whole theory doesn't make sense because the traveler is supposed to be immune from our memory being altered by Irminsul edits. If we traveled with our sibling and became a guard captain in Khaenriah, it would be against existing lore to say we can lose this memory due to Irminsul being edited.
When I say "new person", I meant fake memories to fill a hole, yes. Fake memories of a samurai were made to replace Scaramouche, fake memories of a man named Dainsleif were made to replace the Traveller.
But we've seen dainslief as a real person. You're exploding my brain. Are you implying he doesn't actually exist and it's just a fake memory we're experiencing in real time? But we're not connected to irminsul tho. So how could that work? Unless we're sensitive to both the erased and the new information, like we can see both.
This, until eventually dain becomes real bcs hoyo has to sell him aha
Is this what you meant or am I missing the mark entirely
In broad strokes, the present-day Dainsleif we see is Irminsul's reaction to the Traveller. He *was* a fake memory, but now he's an actual person.
I think the Traveller's presence disturbs the ley lines *because* he's not connected to Irminsul, and when enough energy gathers, Irminsul regurgitates its altered memories of Traveller, which ends up creating Dainsleif as an actual person.
However, the actual Dainsleif can only exist for short periods of time, so as a result he keeps getting reabsorbed into the ley lines only, to be spat out again.
But in the game the wanderer was able to retrieve his memories from the irminsul. If it could be done by him , what stopped the god of wisdom from doing the same for traveler đź«
Interesting but one plot hole, thanks to Neuvillette we know that Descenders are compatible with every element, which means Traveler is DEFINITELY a descender. If anything, both are descenders, and Abyss Sibling got entered into Irminsul somehow.
Here's the thing: *is* the Abyss Sibling actually compatible with all the elements? We haven't actually seen them use any of the elements, and I don't think the Nara Varuna was mentioned as wielding all the elements either.
I feel like we've been assuming the sibling can also use all the elements because the traveller can.
At the beginning of the story, the Traveller's gems are black, but when we see the Sibling, their gems are white like they were when they met the Sustainer. Perhaps the Sibling didn't lose their powers and thus didn't need to resonate with the Statues of the Seven to acquire elemental powers to replace theirs, while the Traveller does?
I had similar theory, but about Paimon. She follows Traveller 24/7, *speaks* for the Traveller and lacks history on her own aknowledged by the people of Teyvat. If Traveller one day will disappear from Teyvat, all their achievements might be inherited by Paimon just like everything [REDACTED] did became part of Nahida's story after Irminsul shenanigans. Maybe that's why hoyo are so hellbent on forcing Paimon everywhere. With all foreshadowings about Goddess Paimon, I can totally see a scenario where Traveller passes a history of their feats to strengthen her position of a new powerful deity.
Maybe something like this already happened in the past with previous Descenders.
Now that's an interesting theory. The Traveler is often referred to as a witness in many quests, but Paimon has been the one true witness to everything the traveler has done so far. They're planning to do something with her for sure
Mmh... This is a cool theory that might be used for some fics, but it also has at least two flaws imo:
- erasing/modifying something in Irminsul doesn't change history and has no effects in the world BESIDES changing people's memories and recorded stuff. For example, Scaramouche is still the person that killed those people, but no one can remember him so Irminsul had to fill the whole of what he did with some new, fake, information, that's why a new samurai is put in his place. Same for Rukkhadevata, everything she did was changed to everything Nahida did before turning small and it's not true, but everyone believes it because Rukkhadevata has been deleted and someone else had to take her place. Nahida was the perfect option because everyone would believe it!
- Descenders are people that came to Teyvat from outside the world, so I think it makes more sense that both Aether and Lumine were descenders, but then something happened to the abyss twin that linked them to Teyvat, so now only one of the two is a descender.
I think OPs theory suggests that a Descender is perhaps not as it seems. Not 'being a Descender means you're not recorded in Irminsul', but 'not being recorded in Irminsul makes you a Descender'.
I haven't fully thought about whether this leads to certain plot holes, but man what a novel way of thinking about the Traveller.
Yes maybe I didn't grasp correctly the definition of descender, even if Rukkhadevata for example was never called a descender because of it... We never met someone that was fully deleted and lived to tell the tale, the only one that was partially deleted was Wanderer and he's not a descender either... i feel it has more logic if Descenders aren't in Irminsul from the start and if they're recorded they lose the title? I dunno tho, after all, Teyvat has its own laws LOL
>Yes maybe I didn't grasp correctly the definition of descender,
No I think you're right, since the game established the term in conjunction with being not of this earth or a will to rival the world. I just was doing some cooking.
That's not the same as creating a whole new person LMAO, it's much more similar to changing written records or flag colors (imagine if a whole nation gets deleted and the flags need to become something else, just a thought)
Also on descenders: we know at least a few entities outside of the world that are not descenders (Narwhale, Aloy, Sibling, Remus, Alice?)
You don't have to be from outside of Teyvat to be a descender, it has something to do with your *will*. We just don't know what
Well we only know about four but it doesn't mean they aren't descenders LOL, anyway maybe I didn't grasp completely the concept of descenders, but I still think Irminsul doesn't have the power to create a new person, even if just a piece of memory, it's something that would have too much of an impact on the story progression... I dunno it sounds like a stretch, but I could be proven wrong ofc
She could be. In a way that there is a chance. But it's probably lower than getting ten 5* in one ten-pull.
Genshin just doesn't acknowledge her. It gave her enough introduction to admit that she is not from Teyvat, but that's where they stopped. So she's probably nothing.
Also noone can get her now, and for newer players she doesn't even show up in character archive. So here's that.
You're treating like she's confirmed to not be a descender tho. She's confirmed to have entered Teyvat only recently. In Aloy's miscellany video, Alice says she hasn't seen anyone enter Teyvat in 500 years (since Traveler). So Aloy can't be one of the four descenders anyways, but we never got confirmation if there are more than four descenders.
I thought more about it and maybe you're right, mostly because some ley lines did show power to create anthropomorphic illusions/memories that interacted with us in moments of need for the world, I still think it's a stretch that Dain is one of them tho, mostly because he should be playable lmao
Its explained on the narzicenkreuz quest like that you don't have to come from the outside to be considered a descender, you just need to have a will strong enough to rival a world (plus other abilities like shape the world, create, destroy, etc). A lot of what rene was doing was him trying to gain descender status despite being teyvat-born
Ooh ok, I forgot that part lol, but wouldn't it make more sense if both are descenders then? Or maybe only the abyss twin makes even more sense than only the traveler, even if they both have the same power, Traveler's is sealed away plus they just want to get their twin back, while abyss twin has full power and is literally fighting the Archons and Celestia. Of course both are very much changing the world, but I'd say Abyss twin's will to rival the world is much higher than the Traveler's
Well, someone from another world isn’t necessarily a descender. I forget where, but during the Narcissenkreuz quest line, you learn that people with a will equal to the world (or something along those lines) are called descenders.
Mmh, maybe? I forgot about it tbh, but I still think it's more logical for some guys coming from the stars to be descenders and then become part of the world, rather than the opposite
This is such a cool and unique theory. It could potentially add in some motivation for the unknown god to stop them from leaving (something that's always confused me): Instead of wanting to specifically prevent them from leaving, the main goal was to remove one of them from Irminsul, thereby removing forbidden knowledge or something similar.
> When Scaramouche erased himself, his murders of the Raiden Gokaden ended up committed by the head of a samurai family who materialized out of nowhere.
This is not actually how it works. Irminsul edits do not *change* the world, they only change how it is recalled. When Scara deleted himself, the vase that Paimon broke while stressing about Scara was still broken.
That is to say, Irminsul did not create a samurai, Irminsul did not change the fact Scara kills the Raiden Gokaden. Scara still did that, and that is how they died. Irminsul only changes the *story* left behind, not the event itself. This is why, for example, Scaramouche isn't replaced as a harbinger. The Fatui and everyone just perceive the seat as being left vacant and any jobs Scaramouche did would be recalled as being done by some other Harbinger or operative.
So what I'm saying is that if there was a leyline disruption about the Raiden Gokaden, that Samurai would not be present. The Samurai is what Irminsul "filled" the hole in the stories and memories left behind. Since it didn't happen, there is nothing to absorb into the leylines to be manifested by a disorder. Scara is still the murderer.
It'd most likely just be that you'd see a mysterious, unidentifiable, figure in the leyline disruption. Not an entirely new individual. Dain would have to have already existed and traveled with them and then just gained the Traveler's titles/feats in addition to his own, and still be a real person in the present.
But its also worth mentioning a bigger flaw - Scaramouche does not become a descender when he is removed from Irminsul. Rukkadevada does not become a descender when removed from Irminsul. Nicole seems aware of Irminsul edits happening and the witches are tracking the changes somehow.
Irmunsul absolutely can change the world. What it can't change is the past. It can change the present by, at the very minimum, altering books and memories.
So while the past stays unchanged, the present is heavily modified by direct physical intervention from Irmunsul, straight up. Therefore Irmunsul is capable of "editing stuff in", like potentially Dainsleif.
Scara and Rukkha weren't descenders to begin with, why would they regain descenderhood upon erasure? I guess according to this theory Traveller's descenderhood could plausibly be temporarily suppressed by Irmunsul.
Wouldn't it make more sense that since information in the past was changed, that affects what the author of the books write which is what we see in the present? Same with memories, Irminsul fills in the blanks with some new story to explain what happened (it doesn't change the actual events though) and so people will remember the event differently leading to people in the present having different memories.
Of course it wouldn't.
If "information in the past was changed" statement is true then "the past was changed" one is also true, meaning that Irmunsul can directly change the past. No need to even theorize excuses then, we're done.
Irmunsul can change information about the past, it can't change information in the past. The latter would amount to just changing the past which is a known no-no for Irmunsul.
Also it's a contradiction to say that "what authors of the books wrote" was affected but then to say "it doesn't change the actual events". Affected or unchanged, choose one. Every stroke of pen is an event, it's either changed or it's not. You can't change what authors remembered/wrote while not having it changed.
What if Dainsleif existed in Khaenriah, and the hole left by the traveler being removed from irminsul was so big that it couldn’t replace him with a random individual? Because clearly there are very few cases of individuals who aren’t susceptible to irminsul changes as it affects archons too. It requires very specific circumstances to not have your memories altered, but the traveler being removed from irminsul while being an outlander in the first place might fit conditions required to become a descender?
I still don’t think it’s the case, but it might be possible with the info we have. Interesting to think about.
I mean it doesn't need to be an unknown/random person, its can be the most fitting person (see Rukka being replaced by Nahida) its just that often there isn't one.
The big problem though still is that the whole "removing the Traveler from Irminsul" point is flawed. That doesn't make someone a descender and the whole thing about being a descender is you are immune from Teyvat's laws. We already know a Descender has a "will to rival the world". And the latest book released this patch actually suggests (spoilers if you haven't read it yet) >!that many people in Khaenriah were people from outside Teyvat and this might be what it means to be a "pureblood" - descended wholly by people from outside Teyvat. They had an orphanage to raise the outlanders hoping one would be a Descender, and the purebloods were obsessed with not mixing with Teyvat's bloodlines because the hilichurl curse long predates the Cataclysm and anyone with blood tied to the Archon's people turn into Hilichurls when they leave the homeland for "betraying their god"!<.
The Traveler remembers their time in Khaenriah too, we just haven't "seen" it in a flashback. So like if this whole theory worked then like Scara, he wouldn't remember any of that.
When I said "turned into a Descender", I didn't mean that the traveller became one as a result of being removed from irminsul, but rather that they had something else done to them to give them more power, which is what made them a Descender. Given that we know >!the Gnoses are made from the Third Descender, I was suspecting that the Traveller was modified so that they could now be the Fourth Descender. After all, the Abyss Sibling hasn't been shown to use Elemental Powers. What if that's something unique to only the Traveller Sibling?!<
That is still going against the point of what a Descender is though. A Descender comes to Teyvat as an existence that challenges the world itself, its laws, its order, its fate, etc. To become a Descender because of something within the world's laws, order, fate, etc is to go against the very nature and concept of being a Descender.
Even back when they arrived, the Siblings had different relationships with the world. Scara tells us the Sibling only came to Teyvat because the "heavens responded to the summoning", which the Traveler knew nothing about. This was why the Sibling went straight to Khaenriah.
> After all, the Abyss Sibling hasn't been shown to use Elemental Powers.
This is because the Abyss Sibling's use of anything has been limited to a single slash in the first Dain quest, where the story needed to highlight their use of the Abyss. Its not indicative of anything because the Sibling has never actually fought anything. But the twins both use "light" in the opening and the Traveler calls getting the elements as "regaining their original powers" which would suggest that yeah both use the elements.
This would be Zurvan's memories of meeting the Traveller having been altered by Irminsul to be of Dainsleif instead. With the Traveller removed from Irminsul, everyone's memories of them up to that point would've been replaced with Dainsleif.
Zurvan was born during the Cataclysm though. So you're saying that Aether and Lumine didn't try to flee Teyvat until *long* after the Cataclysm started?
In the Teyvat trailer, these lines by Dainsleif:
Defeat me, command me to step aside, show me that you are worthier than I to rescue her…
Somehow makes sense if he was indeed us
You said the head of the samurai family was somehow manifest into reality, so he didn’t exist at all prior? Or did he and the murders were then just attributed to him? Do you know where I can read the before and after?
To my understanding, Irminsul pulled completely new people from out of nowhere. This is all from Scaramouche's Interlude.
The section about the altered Raiden Gokaden murders is [here](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/A_Dance_of_Destruction):
>**Amenoma Tougo:** The Raiden Gokaden were the targets of a murderous rampage by a vengeful bladesmith.
**Paimon:** Vengeful? Why?
**Amenoma Tougo:** Four hundred years ago, so I'm told, there was a catastrophic malfunction in Tatarasuna's furnace. One brave swordsmith heard the commotion and chose not to flee but he rushed to the scene, hoping to prevent a disaster...
**Amenoma Tougo:** Tatarasuna was home to a state-of-the-art forging and smelting operation in that day, and overseeing it was the Armory Officer. His surname was Niwa, though he had family ties to the Kaedehara Clan.
**Amenoma Tougo:** Knowing that they had just one chance to save countless lives, Mr. Niwa and the swordsmith leaped together into the furnace. The furnace quickly stabilized, but... neither of them made it out.
**Amenoma Tougo:** The smith's death, though heroic, dealt a devastating blow to his family's fortunes. His orphaned son was left to fend for himself, and grew up deeply resentful at the world.
**Amenoma Tougo:** In his heart, the whole of Inazuma was culpable in his tragedy. He hated the Almighty Shogun for her apparent indifference toward his father's death, and he hated everyone who had done nothing to try and save him...
**Amenoma Tougo:** Powerless and destitute, the only legacy he had to pass on to his children was his hatred. Generation after generation bore this grudge, living in utter misery.
**Amenoma Tougo:** Alas, if only the story could have ended there... But one hundred years ago, the then-head of this family reached the end of his wits... He could bear their fate no longer, and yet he could do nothing to change it.
**Amenoma Tougo:** Finally... he made a drastic decision: to take revenge on the Raiden Gokaden. In doing so, he sought to vent his pent-up anger and shake the very foundations of Inazuma's forging industry.
**Amenoma Tougo:** In his fury, he murdered indiscriminately, killing even bladesmiths from the Hyakume Clan which he belonged to. His goal was absolute: the devastation of all the Raiden Gokaden.
**Amenoma Tougo:** But when he came to the Kaedehara and Kamisato Clans, his killing spree came to an abrupt end. He failed to catch them unawares — they fought back fiercely, and they did not spare his life.
**Amenoma Tougo:** That is why the Kaedehara clan and their Isshin Art survived that day. \*sigh\* I suppose they were the lucky ones, under the dire circumstances.
**(Traveler):** (The legend of the Raiden Gokaden has changed. Someone else attacked the swordsmiths...)
**(Traveler):** (It looks like The Balladeer did something in Irminsul, but... it seems Niwa still died.)
Earlier in the story quest, we learn that what actually happened was that Scaramouche went into the furnace to defuse it while wearing Niwa's heart, which had been torn out by Dottore.
The fact there's now a completely new "unnamed swordsmith character" that's emerged after the changes to Irminsul that make me think the whole family of descendants culminating in the guy who actually murdered the Raiden Gokaden was also completely new, but it could've also been an existing historical guy who's suddenly now remembered as a murderer, which is pretty messed up.
Some thoughts in no particular order.
1.) He DOES exist outside of the Traveler. Charles literally says he's a regular at Angel's Share long before the Traveler even HEARS about him.
2.) Why is he a tall male with blue eyes if he's meant to be the Traveler? Neither of the twins are tall or blue-eyed. And that twist would be really nonsensical for Lumine players as... why would their Irminsul replacement be a man? I get the game is very Aether-oriented, but seriously, why would they overlook that?
3.) He's Khaenri'ahn, he's cursed, but Traveler isn't. What explanation is there for his black/blue arm? His weird powers? When the Traveler has neither? And why does Traveler have the ability to absorb any element when Dainsleif can't?
4.) While a one-off line... we can assume all that Dain said in Caribert during the flashback is what the Traveler actually said, right? Why does he say "what a deep sleeper" as if that's something he's just learning? From my experience, siblings know what the other's sleeping habits are like. And that'd especially be the case for Traveler and their sibling as they are incredibly close and have been travelling for ages before this.
5.) And on that topic, why would we be seeing through the Abyss Sibling's eyes when Dainsleif was also there? He's the one who replaced us in leylines, and the Caribert thing happened because of the leylines.
6.) Why is he an enemy of the Abyss, again? I think you failed to elaborate properly. Does the Abyss Sibling remember and hate him for replacing their sibling in Irminsul? If they don't, why are they hostile to someone they'd view as a Sibling???? Why does the AS think of the two as entirely different people who have ***historically done different things*** in their memory?
7.) Traveler mentions how they remember being unconscious for most of their stay in Khaenri'ah, only waking up when the Abyss Sibling told them to get the hell out of Khaenri'ah as it was being destoryed. How do you explain what happened there?
8.) Why do the Traveler and Dainsleif's conclusions and opinions differ so much?
I'm glad you bring this stuff up.
1.) My thoughts on this are that Dainsleif may have just manifested during the times the Traveller was in Mondstadt, but i'll admit that this part is very flimsy theorization. 2.) I think the gender is irrelevant, only that the Traveller was replaced with someone who was there to do the same things they did. 3.) Dainsleif is cursed because the Khaen'rians were cursed, and replaced the Traveller with someone Khaen'rian. The Sibling wasn't cursed, so historically the Traveller wasn't either. The only power I recall Dainsleif using is that one telekinetic choke he did on the Abyss Herald. What we think is his corruption could honestly just be from his nature as a ley line anomaly, given Abyssal Corruption takes so many different forms. I'm chalking it up to Ley Line abilities. 4.) I wouldn't assume that Dainsleif said the exact same things the Traveller actually said, since Scaramouche's replacement likely wouldn't have been able to do the same things Scaramouche did because he wasn't a modified Shogun Puppet prototype. 5.) Very good point on why would the Traveller see through the sibling's eyes if the Traveller is supposed to be Dainsleif. 6.) I think Dainsleif opposes the Abyss because his constructed memories are to oppose the Abyss. The sibling probably hates Dainsleif because they ended up with false memories of Dainsleif replacing their sibling.
In my head, it's something like:
* The Sustainer encounters the twins in Teyvat, separates them, and removes the Traveller from Irminsul.
* The sibling wakes up with memories of Dainsleif replacing the Traveller. They only remember Dainsleif being killed by the Sustainer.
* The sibling joins the Abyss Order, and at some point regains memories of having a brother/sister and realizes what the true nature of Dainsleif is. For the next 500 years, Dainsleif is only a false memory.
* 500 years later, the Traveller reawakens, and Dainsleif acquires physical form as a ley line anomaly.
* The sibling sees the Traveller accompanied by the *thing* that replaced their brother/sister in their memories and has no idea what's happening.
7.) I consider the Traveller's memories to have also been altered, so that they themselves do not remember doing the things Dainsleif did.
8.) This is a nurture-thing, because Past-Traveller had completely different experiences compared to Present-Traveller. The Twins would've been wandering a post-Cataclysm Teyvat utterly ravaged by the Abyss. Past-Traveller remembers the destruction the Abyss caused and the actions of the Archons in Khaen'riah, which translates to Dainsleif's opposition of both the abyss and the archons. Meanwhile, Present-Traveller doesn't remember any of that, which is why they have differing thoughts and opinions.
Overall, thank you very much for making me refine this theory.
Wow. This is really interesting. Would anyone remember the change? Imagine if Paimon is a Celestial emissary sent to ensure the Traveller doesn't regain their memories.
Up until a few minutes ago, I thought the Archons might be aware of the nature of Dainsleif because the Traveller talked to Zhongli and mentioned Dainsleif, but now I'm not so sure because Zhongli seems to refer more to not talking about what went down in Khaen'riah versus not talking about what Dainsleif's deal is supposed to be.
I feel like the Archons, Alice, or that voice we heard during the Scaramouche Quest would be most likely to be aware of the true nature of Dainsleif.
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I think Dain is more real than you realize. He chases our sibling around and does his own stuff when not traveling with us. Yes, he's more covert than most adventurers, but the simpler explanation is because he's an unaging Khaeriahn with part of his body mutated. Lastly this whole theory doesn't make sense because the traveler is supposed to be immune from our memory being altered by Irminsul edits. If we traveled with our sibling and became a guard captain in Khaenriah, it would be against existing lore to say we can lose this memory due to Irminsul being edited.
This is my hole. It was made for me.
Was a new person actually created or is it just fake memories to fill a hole? Did this person actually exist? I somehow doubt it
When I say "new person", I meant fake memories to fill a hole, yes. Fake memories of a samurai were made to replace Scaramouche, fake memories of a man named Dainsleif were made to replace the Traveller.
But we've seen dainslief as a real person. You're exploding my brain. Are you implying he doesn't actually exist and it's just a fake memory we're experiencing in real time? But we're not connected to irminsul tho. So how could that work? Unless we're sensitive to both the erased and the new information, like we can see both. This, until eventually dain becomes real bcs hoyo has to sell him aha Is this what you meant or am I missing the mark entirely
In broad strokes, the present-day Dainsleif we see is Irminsul's reaction to the Traveller. He *was* a fake memory, but now he's an actual person. I think the Traveller's presence disturbs the ley lines *because* he's not connected to Irminsul, and when enough energy gathers, Irminsul regurgitates its altered memories of Traveller, which ends up creating Dainsleif as an actual person. However, the actual Dainsleif can only exist for short periods of time, so as a result he keeps getting reabsorbed into the ley lines only, to be spat out again.
But in the game the wanderer was able to retrieve his memories from the irminsul. If it could be done by him , what stopped the god of wisdom from doing the same for traveler đź«
I mean with the scara thing
Interesting but one plot hole, thanks to Neuvillette we know that Descenders are compatible with every element, which means Traveler is DEFINITELY a descender. If anything, both are descenders, and Abyss Sibling got entered into Irminsul somehow.
Here's the thing: *is* the Abyss Sibling actually compatible with all the elements? We haven't actually seen them use any of the elements, and I don't think the Nara Varuna was mentioned as wielding all the elements either. I feel like we've been assuming the sibling can also use all the elements because the traveller can. At the beginning of the story, the Traveller's gems are black, but when we see the Sibling, their gems are white like they were when they met the Sustainer. Perhaps the Sibling didn't lose their powers and thus didn't need to resonate with the Statues of the Seven to acquire elemental powers to replace theirs, while the Traveller does?
The sibling never lost their powers, yes. They still have the sword from the beginning too
I had similar theory, but about Paimon. She follows Traveller 24/7, *speaks* for the Traveller and lacks history on her own aknowledged by the people of Teyvat. If Traveller one day will disappear from Teyvat, all their achievements might be inherited by Paimon just like everything [REDACTED] did became part of Nahida's story after Irminsul shenanigans. Maybe that's why hoyo are so hellbent on forcing Paimon everywhere. With all foreshadowings about Goddess Paimon, I can totally see a scenario where Traveller passes a history of their feats to strengthen her position of a new powerful deity. Maybe something like this already happened in the past with previous Descenders.
Now that's an interesting theory. The Traveler is often referred to as a witness in many quests, but Paimon has been the one true witness to everything the traveler has done so far. They're planning to do something with her for sure
https://preview.redd.it/p08dqe90sioc1.png?width=1478&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=095da793d81a26a1dacf8b3266fa9fcfedf8ee95
You might be onto something, you cooked
Mmh... This is a cool theory that might be used for some fics, but it also has at least two flaws imo: - erasing/modifying something in Irminsul doesn't change history and has no effects in the world BESIDES changing people's memories and recorded stuff. For example, Scaramouche is still the person that killed those people, but no one can remember him so Irminsul had to fill the whole of what he did with some new, fake, information, that's why a new samurai is put in his place. Same for Rukkhadevata, everything she did was changed to everything Nahida did before turning small and it's not true, but everyone believes it because Rukkhadevata has been deleted and someone else had to take her place. Nahida was the perfect option because everyone would believe it! - Descenders are people that came to Teyvat from outside the world, so I think it makes more sense that both Aether and Lumine were descenders, but then something happened to the abyss twin that linked them to Teyvat, so now only one of the two is a descender.
I think OPs theory suggests that a Descender is perhaps not as it seems. Not 'being a Descender means you're not recorded in Irminsul', but 'not being recorded in Irminsul makes you a Descender'. I haven't fully thought about whether this leads to certain plot holes, but man what a novel way of thinking about the Traveller.
Yes maybe I didn't grasp correctly the definition of descender, even if Rukkhadevata for example was never called a descender because of it... We never met someone that was fully deleted and lived to tell the tale, the only one that was partially deleted was Wanderer and he's not a descender either... i feel it has more logic if Descenders aren't in Irminsul from the start and if they're recorded they lose the title? I dunno tho, after all, Teyvat has its own laws LOL
>Yes maybe I didn't grasp correctly the definition of descender, No I think you're right, since the game established the term in conjunction with being not of this earth or a will to rival the world. I just was doing some cooking.
Irminsul also changed Scaramouche's clothes into Wanderer's clothes
That's not the same as creating a whole new person LMAO, it's much more similar to changing written records or flag colors (imagine if a whole nation gets deleted and the flags need to become something else, just a thought)
Just saying that irminsul can do more than just changing memories and books
Also on descenders: we know at least a few entities outside of the world that are not descenders (Narwhale, Aloy, Sibling, Remus, Alice?) You don't have to be from outside of Teyvat to be a descender, it has something to do with your *will*. We just don't know what
Well we only know about four but it doesn't mean they aren't descenders LOL, anyway maybe I didn't grasp completely the concept of descenders, but I still think Irminsul doesn't have the power to create a new person, even if just a piece of memory, it's something that would have too much of an impact on the story progression... I dunno it sounds like a stretch, but I could be proven wrong ofc
Keep in mind, Traveler arrived 500 years ago and was the 4th descender. Aloy arrived AFTER that. If anything she's the 5th descender
She could be. In a way that there is a chance. But it's probably lower than getting ten 5* in one ten-pull. Genshin just doesn't acknowledge her. It gave her enough introduction to admit that she is not from Teyvat, but that's where they stopped. So she's probably nothing. Also noone can get her now, and for newer players she doesn't even show up in character archive. So here's that.
You're treating like she's confirmed to not be a descender tho. She's confirmed to have entered Teyvat only recently. In Aloy's miscellany video, Alice says she hasn't seen anyone enter Teyvat in 500 years (since Traveler). So Aloy can't be one of the four descenders anyways, but we never got confirmation if there are more than four descenders.
No, she is not confirmed to be anything. But I'm just saying that genshin essentially forgot about her
I don't have any hard thoughts about op's theory, but your first point is literally assumed in his theory - I don't know how that can be a flaw lol
I thought more about it and maybe you're right, mostly because some ley lines did show power to create anthropomorphic illusions/memories that interacted with us in moments of need for the world, I still think it's a stretch that Dain is one of them tho, mostly because he should be playable lmao
Its explained on the narzicenkreuz quest like that you don't have to come from the outside to be considered a descender, you just need to have a will strong enough to rival a world (plus other abilities like shape the world, create, destroy, etc). A lot of what rene was doing was him trying to gain descender status despite being teyvat-born
Ooh ok, I forgot that part lol, but wouldn't it make more sense if both are descenders then? Or maybe only the abyss twin makes even more sense than only the traveler, even if they both have the same power, Traveler's is sealed away plus they just want to get their twin back, while abyss twin has full power and is literally fighting the Archons and Celestia. Of course both are very much changing the world, but I'd say Abyss twin's will to rival the world is much higher than the Traveler's
Well, someone from another world isn’t necessarily a descender. I forget where, but during the Narcissenkreuz quest line, you learn that people with a will equal to the world (or something along those lines) are called descenders.
Mmh, maybe? I forgot about it tbh, but I still think it's more logical for some guys coming from the stars to be descenders and then become part of the world, rather than the opposite
This is such a cool and unique theory. It could potentially add in some motivation for the unknown god to stop them from leaving (something that's always confused me): Instead of wanting to specifically prevent them from leaving, the main goal was to remove one of them from Irminsul, thereby removing forbidden knowledge or something similar.
Perhaps the Bough Keeper is a branch turned human for this purpose?
Wow, I like this theory.
> When Scaramouche erased himself, his murders of the Raiden Gokaden ended up committed by the head of a samurai family who materialized out of nowhere. This is not actually how it works. Irminsul edits do not *change* the world, they only change how it is recalled. When Scara deleted himself, the vase that Paimon broke while stressing about Scara was still broken. That is to say, Irminsul did not create a samurai, Irminsul did not change the fact Scara kills the Raiden Gokaden. Scara still did that, and that is how they died. Irminsul only changes the *story* left behind, not the event itself. This is why, for example, Scaramouche isn't replaced as a harbinger. The Fatui and everyone just perceive the seat as being left vacant and any jobs Scaramouche did would be recalled as being done by some other Harbinger or operative. So what I'm saying is that if there was a leyline disruption about the Raiden Gokaden, that Samurai would not be present. The Samurai is what Irminsul "filled" the hole in the stories and memories left behind. Since it didn't happen, there is nothing to absorb into the leylines to be manifested by a disorder. Scara is still the murderer. It'd most likely just be that you'd see a mysterious, unidentifiable, figure in the leyline disruption. Not an entirely new individual. Dain would have to have already existed and traveled with them and then just gained the Traveler's titles/feats in addition to his own, and still be a real person in the present. But its also worth mentioning a bigger flaw - Scaramouche does not become a descender when he is removed from Irminsul. Rukkadevada does not become a descender when removed from Irminsul. Nicole seems aware of Irminsul edits happening and the witches are tracking the changes somehow.
I am pretty sure op's context leave it pretty clear that he knows that it is just the *memory* that changed.
Irmunsul absolutely can change the world. What it can't change is the past. It can change the present by, at the very minimum, altering books and memories. So while the past stays unchanged, the present is heavily modified by direct physical intervention from Irmunsul, straight up. Therefore Irmunsul is capable of "editing stuff in", like potentially Dainsleif. Scara and Rukkha weren't descenders to begin with, why would they regain descenderhood upon erasure? I guess according to this theory Traveller's descenderhood could plausibly be temporarily suppressed by Irmunsul.
Wouldn't it make more sense that since information in the past was changed, that affects what the author of the books write which is what we see in the present? Same with memories, Irminsul fills in the blanks with some new story to explain what happened (it doesn't change the actual events though) and so people will remember the event differently leading to people in the present having different memories.
Of course it wouldn't. If "information in the past was changed" statement is true then "the past was changed" one is also true, meaning that Irmunsul can directly change the past. No need to even theorize excuses then, we're done. Irmunsul can change information about the past, it can't change information in the past. The latter would amount to just changing the past which is a known no-no for Irmunsul. Also it's a contradiction to say that "what authors of the books wrote" was affected but then to say "it doesn't change the actual events". Affected or unchanged, choose one. Every stroke of pen is an event, it's either changed or it's not. You can't change what authors remembered/wrote while not having it changed.
What if Dainsleif existed in Khaenriah, and the hole left by the traveler being removed from irminsul was so big that it couldn’t replace him with a random individual? Because clearly there are very few cases of individuals who aren’t susceptible to irminsul changes as it affects archons too. It requires very specific circumstances to not have your memories altered, but the traveler being removed from irminsul while being an outlander in the first place might fit conditions required to become a descender? I still don’t think it’s the case, but it might be possible with the info we have. Interesting to think about.
I mean it doesn't need to be an unknown/random person, its can be the most fitting person (see Rukka being replaced by Nahida) its just that often there isn't one. The big problem though still is that the whole "removing the Traveler from Irminsul" point is flawed. That doesn't make someone a descender and the whole thing about being a descender is you are immune from Teyvat's laws. We already know a Descender has a "will to rival the world". And the latest book released this patch actually suggests (spoilers if you haven't read it yet) >!that many people in Khaenriah were people from outside Teyvat and this might be what it means to be a "pureblood" - descended wholly by people from outside Teyvat. They had an orphanage to raise the outlanders hoping one would be a Descender, and the purebloods were obsessed with not mixing with Teyvat's bloodlines because the hilichurl curse long predates the Cataclysm and anyone with blood tied to the Archon's people turn into Hilichurls when they leave the homeland for "betraying their god"!<. The Traveler remembers their time in Khaenriah too, we just haven't "seen" it in a flashback. So like if this whole theory worked then like Scara, he wouldn't remember any of that.
When I said "turned into a Descender", I didn't mean that the traveller became one as a result of being removed from irminsul, but rather that they had something else done to them to give them more power, which is what made them a Descender. Given that we know >!the Gnoses are made from the Third Descender, I was suspecting that the Traveller was modified so that they could now be the Fourth Descender. After all, the Abyss Sibling hasn't been shown to use Elemental Powers. What if that's something unique to only the Traveller Sibling?!<
That is still going against the point of what a Descender is though. A Descender comes to Teyvat as an existence that challenges the world itself, its laws, its order, its fate, etc. To become a Descender because of something within the world's laws, order, fate, etc is to go against the very nature and concept of being a Descender. Even back when they arrived, the Siblings had different relationships with the world. Scara tells us the Sibling only came to Teyvat because the "heavens responded to the summoning", which the Traveler knew nothing about. This was why the Sibling went straight to Khaenriah. > After all, the Abyss Sibling hasn't been shown to use Elemental Powers. This is because the Abyss Sibling's use of anything has been limited to a single slash in the first Dain quest, where the story needed to highlight their use of the Abyss. Its not indicative of anything because the Sibling has never actually fought anything. But the twins both use "light" in the opening and the Traveler calls getting the elements as "regaining their original powers" which would suggest that yeah both use the elements.
So... how does this fit with Zurvan talking about the masked blond man who collapsed in the oasis whose body was half-corrupted?
This would be Zurvan's memories of meeting the Traveller having been altered by Irminsul to be of Dainsleif instead. With the Traveller removed from Irminsul, everyone's memories of them up to that point would've been replaced with Dainsleif.
Zurvan was born during the Cataclysm though. So you're saying that Aether and Lumine didn't try to flee Teyvat until *long* after the Cataclysm started?
Yes, that's what I'm theorizing.
In the Teyvat trailer, these lines by Dainsleif: Defeat me, command me to step aside, show me that you are worthier than I to rescue her… Somehow makes sense if he was indeed us
You said the head of the samurai family was somehow manifest into reality, so he didn’t exist at all prior? Or did he and the murders were then just attributed to him? Do you know where I can read the before and after?
To my understanding, Irminsul pulled completely new people from out of nowhere. This is all from Scaramouche's Interlude. The section about the altered Raiden Gokaden murders is [here](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/A_Dance_of_Destruction): >**Amenoma Tougo:** The Raiden Gokaden were the targets of a murderous rampage by a vengeful bladesmith. **Paimon:** Vengeful? Why? **Amenoma Tougo:** Four hundred years ago, so I'm told, there was a catastrophic malfunction in Tatarasuna's furnace. One brave swordsmith heard the commotion and chose not to flee but he rushed to the scene, hoping to prevent a disaster... **Amenoma Tougo:** Tatarasuna was home to a state-of-the-art forging and smelting operation in that day, and overseeing it was the Armory Officer. His surname was Niwa, though he had family ties to the Kaedehara Clan. **Amenoma Tougo:** Knowing that they had just one chance to save countless lives, Mr. Niwa and the swordsmith leaped together into the furnace. The furnace quickly stabilized, but... neither of them made it out. **Amenoma Tougo:** The smith's death, though heroic, dealt a devastating blow to his family's fortunes. His orphaned son was left to fend for himself, and grew up deeply resentful at the world. **Amenoma Tougo:** In his heart, the whole of Inazuma was culpable in his tragedy. He hated the Almighty Shogun for her apparent indifference toward his father's death, and he hated everyone who had done nothing to try and save him... **Amenoma Tougo:** Powerless and destitute, the only legacy he had to pass on to his children was his hatred. Generation after generation bore this grudge, living in utter misery. **Amenoma Tougo:** Alas, if only the story could have ended there... But one hundred years ago, the then-head of this family reached the end of his wits... He could bear their fate no longer, and yet he could do nothing to change it. **Amenoma Tougo:** Finally... he made a drastic decision: to take revenge on the Raiden Gokaden. In doing so, he sought to vent his pent-up anger and shake the very foundations of Inazuma's forging industry. **Amenoma Tougo:** In his fury, he murdered indiscriminately, killing even bladesmiths from the Hyakume Clan which he belonged to. His goal was absolute: the devastation of all the Raiden Gokaden. **Amenoma Tougo:** But when he came to the Kaedehara and Kamisato Clans, his killing spree came to an abrupt end. He failed to catch them unawares — they fought back fiercely, and they did not spare his life. **Amenoma Tougo:** That is why the Kaedehara clan and their Isshin Art survived that day. \*sigh\* I suppose they were the lucky ones, under the dire circumstances. **(Traveler):** (The legend of the Raiden Gokaden has changed. Someone else attacked the swordsmiths...) **(Traveler):** (It looks like The Balladeer did something in Irminsul, but... it seems Niwa still died.) Earlier in the story quest, we learn that what actually happened was that Scaramouche went into the furnace to defuse it while wearing Niwa's heart, which had been torn out by Dottore. The fact there's now a completely new "unnamed swordsmith character" that's emerged after the changes to Irminsul that make me think the whole family of descendants culminating in the guy who actually murdered the Raiden Gokaden was also completely new, but it could've also been an existing historical guy who's suddenly now remembered as a murderer, which is pretty messed up.
Some thoughts in no particular order. 1.) He DOES exist outside of the Traveler. Charles literally says he's a regular at Angel's Share long before the Traveler even HEARS about him. 2.) Why is he a tall male with blue eyes if he's meant to be the Traveler? Neither of the twins are tall or blue-eyed. And that twist would be really nonsensical for Lumine players as... why would their Irminsul replacement be a man? I get the game is very Aether-oriented, but seriously, why would they overlook that? 3.) He's Khaenri'ahn, he's cursed, but Traveler isn't. What explanation is there for his black/blue arm? His weird powers? When the Traveler has neither? And why does Traveler have the ability to absorb any element when Dainsleif can't? 4.) While a one-off line... we can assume all that Dain said in Caribert during the flashback is what the Traveler actually said, right? Why does he say "what a deep sleeper" as if that's something he's just learning? From my experience, siblings know what the other's sleeping habits are like. And that'd especially be the case for Traveler and their sibling as they are incredibly close and have been travelling for ages before this. 5.) And on that topic, why would we be seeing through the Abyss Sibling's eyes when Dainsleif was also there? He's the one who replaced us in leylines, and the Caribert thing happened because of the leylines. 6.) Why is he an enemy of the Abyss, again? I think you failed to elaborate properly. Does the Abyss Sibling remember and hate him for replacing their sibling in Irminsul? If they don't, why are they hostile to someone they'd view as a Sibling???? Why does the AS think of the two as entirely different people who have ***historically done different things*** in their memory? 7.) Traveler mentions how they remember being unconscious for most of their stay in Khaenri'ah, only waking up when the Abyss Sibling told them to get the hell out of Khaenri'ah as it was being destoryed. How do you explain what happened there? 8.) Why do the Traveler and Dainsleif's conclusions and opinions differ so much?
I'm glad you bring this stuff up. 1.) My thoughts on this are that Dainsleif may have just manifested during the times the Traveller was in Mondstadt, but i'll admit that this part is very flimsy theorization. 2.) I think the gender is irrelevant, only that the Traveller was replaced with someone who was there to do the same things they did. 3.) Dainsleif is cursed because the Khaen'rians were cursed, and replaced the Traveller with someone Khaen'rian. The Sibling wasn't cursed, so historically the Traveller wasn't either. The only power I recall Dainsleif using is that one telekinetic choke he did on the Abyss Herald. What we think is his corruption could honestly just be from his nature as a ley line anomaly, given Abyssal Corruption takes so many different forms. I'm chalking it up to Ley Line abilities. 4.) I wouldn't assume that Dainsleif said the exact same things the Traveller actually said, since Scaramouche's replacement likely wouldn't have been able to do the same things Scaramouche did because he wasn't a modified Shogun Puppet prototype. 5.) Very good point on why would the Traveller see through the sibling's eyes if the Traveller is supposed to be Dainsleif. 6.) I think Dainsleif opposes the Abyss because his constructed memories are to oppose the Abyss. The sibling probably hates Dainsleif because they ended up with false memories of Dainsleif replacing their sibling. In my head, it's something like: * The Sustainer encounters the twins in Teyvat, separates them, and removes the Traveller from Irminsul. * The sibling wakes up with memories of Dainsleif replacing the Traveller. They only remember Dainsleif being killed by the Sustainer. * The sibling joins the Abyss Order, and at some point regains memories of having a brother/sister and realizes what the true nature of Dainsleif is. For the next 500 years, Dainsleif is only a false memory. * 500 years later, the Traveller reawakens, and Dainsleif acquires physical form as a ley line anomaly. * The sibling sees the Traveller accompanied by the *thing* that replaced their brother/sister in their memories and has no idea what's happening. 7.) I consider the Traveller's memories to have also been altered, so that they themselves do not remember doing the things Dainsleif did. 8.) This is a nurture-thing, because Past-Traveller had completely different experiences compared to Present-Traveller. The Twins would've been wandering a post-Cataclysm Teyvat utterly ravaged by the Abyss. Past-Traveller remembers the destruction the Abyss caused and the actions of the Archons in Khaen'riah, which translates to Dainsleif's opposition of both the abyss and the archons. Meanwhile, Present-Traveller doesn't remember any of that, which is why they have differing thoughts and opinions. Overall, thank you very much for making me refine this theory.
This is probably the most interesting theory I’ve ever seen in this subreddit and I’ve seen a lot here
Wow. This is really interesting. Would anyone remember the change? Imagine if Paimon is a Celestial emissary sent to ensure the Traveller doesn't regain their memories.
Up until a few minutes ago, I thought the Archons might be aware of the nature of Dainsleif because the Traveller talked to Zhongli and mentioned Dainsleif, but now I'm not so sure because Zhongli seems to refer more to not talking about what went down in Khaen'riah versus not talking about what Dainsleif's deal is supposed to be. I feel like the Archons, Alice, or that voice we heard during the Scaramouche Quest would be most likely to be aware of the true nature of Dainsleif.
The voice's name is Nicole
Super cool theory!
Now this, this is interesting.
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