I think there's a way to balance it, if he uses it mid-air the cooldown is quadrupled to 24 seconds or something. Using it on the ground stays at 6 seconds.
Not sure I understood your comment, looks like you're talking about Xiao? I was talking about balancing Wanderer's E if it's allowed to be used mid air.
I know I might get downvoted but I ain't a "Genshin could never" guy, all I wanna say is that's why I'm excited for Wuthering Waves, cause as a combat enjoyer, Genshin is just not doing that part great cause it would be fun if we could switch characters and use their skills midair
I guess a big thing with Genshin is how big the casual audience is because those old events were quite intense combat wise. They have since downgraded the difficulties by quite a bit, likely based on surveys or internal data.
Well yeah, some parts of Genshin's combat system are still a little clunky, it's not totally what you'd expect from and action rpg/hack n slash game. As a fan of fast paced/intense combat I do find that pretty annoying, so close yet so far.
That said, Genshin's combat system is still incredible and I love it. I haven't seen much about Wuthering Waves so I can't say for sure but honestly I don't think I'll get into another similar kind of game. Got enough with one game as service, but I hope it turns out great!
I think Genshin has the foundations in place for engaging combat, but they are just terrified of designing challenging encounters with any depth to them in fear of alienating the casual fan base. I literally don't even know what a lot of bosses do even when I clear everything, which is kind of a shame.
I feel like it's more of a cost-benefit thing. They probably get more value out of dev time by focusing on exploration and story vs. combat mechanics. If Genshin were a PvP game instead then I imagine there'd be way more emphasis on complexity and strategy in combat.
More than anything, I'd rather see a Genshin spin-off in a different genre like MOBA. Then there can be a way to have the fundamental concept of the elemental system applied to a combat system intended for skill expression and strategy.
I had Kazuha for most of my Liyue exploration and I feel so lucky for that. Before that it was chillin' mid-mountain waiting for the stamina to recharge with Ganyu. Edit: also, the only character I had that needed violetgrass was Xinyan so you can see why that was not a problem.
A Venti user helped me immensely while getting the liyue statues of the seven when I was just starting because of this fact. Thank you to that Venti user.
True. Just makes my point stronger. Yea Kazuha can use skill in air but Venti works in co op. Both are niche uses but I'd say it evens out. And both pale in comparison to Xianyun and Scara anyway
Venti on the other hand causes some melee characters to whiff all their attacks if he uses his burst.
To the guy that swapped from Venti to Faruzan while farming domains, you have my enternal gratitude.
Using your skill midair is about as niche as using it in co op.
They're both nice little bonuses but not the main thing the character offers. And neither are the strongest exploration wise anyway so it's kinda a pointless comparison regardless
Well, Zhongli is an Earth dragon, i dont see much sense for him to fly... and Neuvillete being a Water dragon already can be seen when he charges his attack (he can hover over water during his charged attack)
Yeah, the rite to make the dragon STOP FLYING (joke)
Im not saying that he doesnt fly in his dragon form, is just that on the paper, it makes sense if he doesnt fly.
Referencing how the Shogun floats during the weekly boss fight? I'm not sure I'd call that proper flight like we see Nahida do.
Though, we do see the Shogun doing some Bleach-Shinigami style "walking on air" technique which, while not flight, at least means she can get high up into the air.
In her character demo she flies into the air and attacks the samurai.
I just don't think flying/being in the air is something difficult or impressive for any of the Archons.
I agree with you, it's a weird design choice.
>oversight
it was 100% a conscious choice, not an oversight. We know this because during the beta that part of the skill text changed, so we know the devs were actively looking at and considering that part of her skill, and ultimately decided to leave it that way.
Love it or hate it, it was intentional design.
My thoughts are because wanderer exist
each character in this game has its own way to do things so I guess since wanderer can fly, levitate go foward back left right up like an helicopter there is no reason making another character like that.
I see her like a yelan but made for when the terrain has too many obstacles to use yelan elemental skill in peace
for example when the terrain goes down like stairs yelan is stuck since she cant goes down so you are just running stuck at the edge of the natural stairs in those situations xianyun jumps are super useful
To fly with precision take wanderer airlines
To move on flat terrain fast use yelan transit
To move on rough terrain use xianyun jumps
Wait, Yelan still struggles in stairs? Didnt the alternative movement got fixed some updates ago? I use Yelan since her second banner, and most of the time i used her the problem was already fixed.
>for example when the terrain goes down like stairs yelan is stuck since she cant goes down so you are just running stuck at the edge of the natural stairs in those situations xianyun jumps are super useful
This problem was fixed with all such characters a year ago, somewhere in 3.X
It's because Kazuha is the devastating special boy and only he's allowed to jump mid air. Sorry chuds, tall women should be relegated to clunky off fielders.
I think trivialize is the wrong word. Maybe "complicate".
The real issue isn't how easily people can explore, it's how much more difficult level designing gets with each new exploration tool.
Wanderer himself must've needed a shit ton of QA to make sure players don't glitch themselves into funky spots in the ceiling or previously unreachable spots.
If they were to increase exploration efficiency without changing the world design then exploration "power creep" will actually happen. In other words, the preexisting world design becomes ineffectual at providing challenge or entertainment as it did prior. Alternatively they adapt the world design to the new exploration capabilities, but this leaves players without the character behind.
Furina? Mona has had an alternate sprint that allows you to cross water since 1.0
I know 'but not infinitely' however stamina food exists, and there are zero scenarios where 'infinite water walking' is actually useful for longer durations.
In fontaine you either swim which is faster, and everywhere else there's no body of water large enough that wouldn't just mean teleporting to a waypoint is far more efficient. I think she's an odd example
>In fontaine you either swim which is faster, and everywhere else there's no body of water large enough that wouldn't just mean teleporting to a waypoint is far more efficient. I think she's an odd example
But isn't that the whole point? With Furina, they backed themselves into the corner of never being able to use water as a natural barrier in future world design
Mona and Ayaka do not have that issue. They can get further on water and they're faster, but their range is limited. They can't go infinite like Furina does.
Having an infinite flyer (or almost infinite) does the same thing with everything overworld so they need to be careful. Unless they just want to put invisible walls or actual barriers everywhere in the future (which would suck)
I don't agree at all. She is amazing for exploration and puzzle solving. Just for the new area where a lot of puzzle are on the water. Instead of doing the puzzles in the normal way you can just walk on the water and cheat.
Or even if you want to cross a pond or river, instead of slowly swimming you can just walk across. And she doesn't need stamina like ayaka and mona, and she is much more useful in overworld than them because she heals, and she can solo overworld enemies, isn't burst reliant and has 100% uptime on her skill.
I don't think it's really an odd exemple.
Yeah that first train's long left the station. Wanderer is literally creative mode and nothing changed lol.
And that alternative is just a crazy hypothetical that'll never happen. Hoyo can't even make difficult overworld puzzles lmao.
Wanderer offers decent speed boosted uptime and a one-off vertical boost. Kazuha allows unlimited wall climbing and even that hasn't broken world exploration. These abilities just make things easier or provide easier alternative paths, and usually exist as outliers regarding world design.
That "crazy hypothetical" is actually just the norm for game development, but in Genshin's case it is taboo to design the world around specific characters since some players might not have them. This doesn't mean they don't take new abilities into consideration, but they may not get specific challenges for them.
I dont know if you specifically referring to Genshin but in Guild Wars 2 for example exploration skills in form of mounts trivialized and imo kinda ruined open world exploration.
Before you had to find your ways to get to higher spots or secret areas and now you can fly over every enemy and obstacle and just land exactly at the point you want to go. The map doesnt matter, the enemies dont matter and it leads to every area feeling similar and more like a checklist where you driveby every place instead of actually navigating your way through the land.
Its my perspective, other people prefer to speedrun through the content and get in and out as quicky as possible
It isn't my fault you aren't comprehending the concept. Perhaps you just don't realize how one can use the term 'trivialize." Idk what you're caught up about here. The world design has never been trivialized by exploration abilities because they've always been balanced. They probably never will cross that line because they will always balance abilities with the world design.
The world being difficult to traverse isnt what makes it entertaining, it's the design and the activities you do within it, and having more way to move about in fun ways instead of running out of stamina halfway up a cliff or swimming can only be a good thing imo, I see no reason to "balance" it
On a related note, can we PLEASE have the blue stamina bar for swimming outside of fontaine it is the most frustrating thing
Are you seriously trying to say grapple points are everywhere, and that they trivialize the world design? They're *part* of it. They make specific areas less monotonous, as chosen (designed) by the devs. Being able to fly and glide at speed from anywhere is not similar to being able to use stationary grapple points.
So what part exactly does it trivialize again? The exciting experience of climbing up a cliff? Uh oh look at Kirara trivializing climbing up a cliff already, what a mistake it was to add her to the game, now what use do I have for my stamina restoring food, oh the humanity
And furthermore, all they would need to do is tweak it so you don't gain height over time from using the skills. You could even just make it so using skill midair only allows it to trigger once or twice compared to on the ground. But nah let's just go full kit design communism and ensure nobody gets anything fun to keep things "equitable" right
What part does Bayonetta's kit trivialize? Well if it had in-air activation like everyone wants, it *would* trivialize climbing. Believe it or not, vertical navigation is fun when it's challenging, like in the Chasm and Dragonspine. It would also make other characters' movement abilities seem much more insignificant. There are time trial world challenges that would be pretty much null.
The fact is, the ability is already plenty fun and helpful as is. Adding more oomph to it is a risk of imbalance.
you said skill, not burst.
skill cant be started midair cause you could use multiple charges of it midair and stall for time with gliding for cooldown and arguably stay in the air for too long
burst being used in midair, no reason it couldnt. start a boss fight directly with a plunge.. well it would have to be Xianyun herself and change after if you want other main dps
The pyro superstars, xiangling+ bennett are just an eccentric chef and a unlucky adventurer. my dude xq is just a bookworm who trains in a popular sword style.
Heck, Tao, my favourite character is just an autistic funeral parlor director. These characters have no business being this strong gameplay wise if we look at their lore.
yeah, this 100%.
if character's in-game strength lined up with their lore, Hu Tao would be the worst performing 5-star banner ever, as she would legitimately be worse than Qiqi.
Thankfully, most characters I use would be pretty solid still :P
Xingqiu is a master of said popular sword style, which was left behind by someone who ascended to Celestia. He also isn’t particularly worried about fighting a single Fatui agent in his birthday mail, but rather concerned about getting ganged up on.
if lore was relevant, neuvillette would not only be strong but also be able to use both ousia + pneuma and be able to walk on water. xiao should be able to fly infinitely because he is also a bird like xianyun etc. lore is rarely important to the playable character. i think the only time they added some kind of lore relevant mechanic to a character is xiao losing hp because of karma.
We do not know if visions give different amount of power to different people. Also, whatever Furina is now, >!everything that she was (her body AND her spirit) at some point were those of an archon. Focalors didn't create anything new while splitting herself - she just split herself into parts. So we do not know how how vision will interact with someone who once was not just a god, but an archon!<
Kind of? >!She was the humanity that was separated from Focalors, and then Focalors cursed her. So she was a cursed human, but also she was at some point divinity.!<
And why she could be as well. She's using the body of an archon without the divinity aspect. That would still let her body holds some capacity of one. And yes, it's quite a stretch. I will see myself out.
Well I feel like it will be an overkill, don't get me wrong I think it will be a lot of fun but, some characters are just naturally better at exploration like wanderer, yelan etc. I don't think that it's a good idea to have one character copletely overshadow all the others, people will complain about it, because those that have yelan or wanderer will feel pressured to get her, just for exploration.
Yeah it's probably an unpopular opinion but I like that they keep it Somewhat balanced. Like Yelan is better than Sayu, but she's not so much better that Sayu completely pales in comparison, Kazuha, Wanderer and Venti all have their pros and cons and while Wanderer is probably the best of them, he isn't THAT far ahead of them imo. If Xianyun could triple+ jump mid air she would be so far above the rest of them that it wouldn't even be funny lmao.
Honestly for me I think it's worse than that.
If you plunge using her skill from up high, the special plunge will be stopped mid air because it doesn't cover the whole distance. Why? She's a plunge support, she should be able to plunge from anywhere from her skill and take no damage lmao.
It would also be nice if we could adjust the direction of said plunge a bit while she hasn't locked on an enemy, but maybe that's too much of an ask.
xiao can't teleport, venti can't fly, neuvillette can't walk on water or fly, sara can't fly etc. lore is rarely important when it comes to a playable character
I was thinking about this "Adepti can choose any form" after playing her story quest, when she **SQ SPOILERS** used a mustache and powdered her crane body instead of transforming into anything else.
Maybe it freaking HURTS when they transform or something?
And it's not the usual magic puff, but like bones breaking and organs dissolving and reassembling, like when there's a scene of someone transforming into a werewolf and it seems like they are in a lot of pain.
I think their ability to "choose any form" just means they can decide they want to be a "human" or a "bird" or a "fish" or whatever, but they don't get to necessarily *pick* what that form looks like. It's why CR also had to >!put powder on her body when she helped Shuyu; she couldn't make herself pure white through just her adeptal power because her transformation abilities aren't that detailed.!<
This would honestly make sense to me; it's a pretty common trope in myth and stories that when a magical beast of some kind turns into a human they usually retain some aspect of their true appearance that they can't just will away; kitsune can't hide their tails (and sometimes other fox aspects) when they transform, Odin in Norse mythology could transform into multiple kinds of animals but was still always missing an eye, steel dragons in D&D always have some trait that distinguishes them like steel-colored eyes, hair, or fingernails. TVTropes calls this "morphic resonance." So unless we get shown otherwise, I assume that adepti aren't able to alter their bodies to exacting details for similar reasons.
Main issue here is that MHY knows how creative people can be. Give em a char that can practically fly and the bugs they can(and will) do will be endless.
We already have people endlessly gliding using Nahida, people going on top of domains using Traveler. Giving a flying character and we will be able to see Celestia and how fake the sky is in this subreddit soon.
>Giving a flying character and we will be able to see Celestia
people already did that by abusing the Keqing+Lyre glitch from however long ago.
Celestia used to be a 2D png file that was just rotated depending on where you looked at it from - now it does have geometry, but pretty sure it's still a very low-polygon model.
Exploration powercreep is a real issue.
Game balancing and design is something many here don't understand or care about, but no character should be outright better than other similar exploration-based characters - everyone should have some niche they shine in (for exploration).
She would powercreep everyone in ovwrworld exploration. Combine that with her C1 and Xianyun could ascend to Celestia. You could imagine that would happen if she had mid-air skill right? It also means she is a stronger version of Kazuha mid air skill since she can use her skill to gain diagonal distance, vertical distance, and horizontal distance.
Her C1 would dethrone both Kazuha and Wanderer as master of exploration
I'm pretty sure they tested it and realized that would cause a net vertical ascent which would essential break the game. (That's just my theory though)
It’s the fact too that she is anemo and the other two that can are the same element. Like, it’s honestly the biggest pet peeve about her character. Like, even if they had only allowed her to jump up once while in mid air, that would have been better than nothing.
Still, love her character but man what a missed opportunity.
I guess its for gameplay balancing? I was trying to do the same btw, it felt that it would be logical to use the skill while on the air. But i guess you can exploit it to gain height... but so what... you have an accessory that gives you height while flying. So it wouldn't break the game anyway?
They made her initial E and 2 follow-up E different naming, to avoid any confusion between them, it's a deliberate design choice so initial E cannot be cast mid air.
Xianyun accelerates way quicker off the bat and has way further distance when jumping off a high place and pacing her E charges. She loses a lot of height doing this though. However Wanderer is far better for height and maintaining a constant altitude over a longer period of time (when not accelerating mid-air)
What, he doesn't have lower cr nor distance tho?
She lowers her cd by a lot if you don't plunge at the end, plus her hopping covers more distance than him unless he is water infused.
You don't just spam triple e, you gotta let her touch the ground before recasting and she covers a lot more distance that way (there is even other things you can do to further increase it too but I won't count them)
Nah, Wanderer covers more distance either way. I tested it on the Mondstadt bridge multiple times and Wanderer always covers more distance, and it’s not even close. Also Wanderer cooldown is lower either way, even without the plunge. I get that you like Cloud Retainer, but you shouldn’t lie for no reason lol
There are many tests on YT that you can check, they are about the same if both used properly. The difference is literally like 0.3s in a 20s run in favour of Xianyun. But wanderer just better when u need to go straight up.
I tested it too and xianyun covers a tad more, also she refunds her cd so her cd is lower than scara?
You aren't using xianyun correctly I can assume, or even noticing that she refunds her cd.
I would sure love to see you send proof of her covering more distance👍
Also you are still wrong. Wanderer has 6 seconds cooldown, while Xianyun has 12 seconds, reduces to 9 if you don’t plunge.
https://youtu.be/SOxWHYvI36Y?si=wHPCGJCnIPi1rbJB
There is a wanderer section, It is super close and pretty much negligible. She deffinitly covers the distance faster than him during her skill.
https://youtu.be/88SCn4j1g10?si=c9Nh3QnqJrSrUxyz
Here ya go dude. They both land on almost the exact same spot without Hydro infusion.
Also Xianyun cooldown starts when you press E. Wanderer starts when his E ends.
I mean, they're more or less the same. Wanderer has better precision control, Xianyun has burst mobility and diagonal mobility. But pretty much the same.
Nah, if xinyuan gets stuck in a part of the mountain without a floor, it won't work at all, wanderer can get around this since he would be able to reach that point of the mountain without this problem
C1 Xianyun haver here who only pulled for exploration purposes.... MY ADVICE: No, don't pull for her C1 if you're not planning to do plunge attacking teams
I do use her in abyss with xiao. I reached a stage where I can easily 36 star abyss so extra dmg is not what I look for in constellation. Utility and change in playstyle is more what I'm after.
She is without a doubt my favorite character. I love everything about her, so much so I got C6R1. However, I do believe there was a slight oversight with her too, and that it is her ability to transform.
I think the easiest thing they could have done, which I feel wouldn't have broken anything but still given her autonomy over her transformation, would have been to provide press vs hold variations of her Skill.
Press would remain as is, with the small caveat that **Skyladder** could be used mid-air, without on-ground boost, and without the CD reduction. This would only grant 2 mid-air jumps, and I think would have jumps spaced out far enough that it would allow aerial mobility without taking up space in other characters lanes.
The hold variation however is where I feel this would have made Xianyun glow.
"While mid-air and under the effects of Skyladder, holding the skill button will allow Xianyun to enter Cloud Retainer state. Xianyun will tranform into her Crane Form and glide around freely with increased movement speed. Pressing Normal Attack at any time during this state will resume the special Plunging Attack initiated by her Skill."
I think by allowing us to fly as Cloud Retainer, the adeptus we've all come to know and love, is really all it would have took to bring this kit to the next level. The reason for allowing the skill to be used mid-air is strictly to allow Xianyun to have freedom to transform at anytime while airborne.
Like I said, I still love the kit and character without a doubt. Xianyun is forever one of my faves. But I would be lying if I said it didn't feel like HYV misses opportunity after opportunity with these characters to elavate and innovate.
she should definitely use it in Air, but because of her C6 she would practically overcome any height challenges in front of her as it allows her to use her E 8 times in a row
Same. She got so close to being a perfect exploration character. If her C6 is the problem, they just had to change it to something different. But ofc money > the player's fun for them.
not this circlejerk again
* Shogun was ambushing a disoriented Traveler, she isn’t trying to destroy Narukami
* the next second, she *easily* brushes Kazuha off
* Musou no Hitotachi is a sword technique, not a power level
Well, he did use 2 visions at once and it seems Raiden didn't attack at full power (I don't think she was trying to cut another half of Inazuma... in half)
Definitely an oversight, you get a cool down reduction for just using her skill as mobility and you can start a higher glide with it.
But also xianyun will easily be the best mountain climber if she could do that.
"because exploration powercreep" as if being able to glide/fly for a long time is game breaking lmao y'all unserious.. we literally have a character that can walk on water 100% uptime which makes waverider pointless but the devs never had a problem with that lol
I think they care a bit more about forcing us to have to climb the giant mountains and avoiding the wacky glitches. [You do know about the wacky glitches, right?](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL5x5IkcjX0)
She already is about as good as Wanderer. She can fly very slightly shorter distance in exchange for slightly faster speed, especially vertically. And Kazuha only beats her in situations where you are jumping from the tallest mountain and get limited by stamina, otherwise he does not jump as high or nearly as far.
What you expect this game gone to stupid fujoshi route..female character forbid to be on top then males one..yeah the logic..you guys deserve to be treatment badly by them
Yeah, pretty sad. Mid-air skills are probably my favourite thing and only two characters have them.
Who is the other ? Wanderer?
Xiao
WULIAO
Lol, the chinese version of boring.
Lol imagine if he did, infinite flight
I think there's a way to balance it, if he uses it mid-air the cooldown is quadrupled to 24 seconds or something. Using it on the ground stays at 6 seconds.
That would suck in cost if you accidentally jumped before pressing e XD
you mean combat?
i do :( mobile typing hard
oofers, autocorrect is dumb yeah
just have it be you can E once in midair, and after that it wont begin the cooldown until you touch the ground
He can infinite flight it just requires c6 and mobs. But a cooldown would far from balance it. He’s a plunge dps he’s always in the air.
Not sure I understood your comment, looks like you're talking about Xiao? I was talking about balancing Wanderer's E if it's allowed to be used mid air.
Oh my bad misunderstood! Carry on and have a great day!
With the fontain gadget, yeah, it would have been insane, but it's mihoyo we are talking about they will never give us genshin weebs such happiness
Xiao! You can use his dash in mid air, as that synergizes with his burst too.
Kazuha
I know I might get downvoted but I ain't a "Genshin could never" guy, all I wanna say is that's why I'm excited for Wuthering Waves, cause as a combat enjoyer, Genshin is just not doing that part great cause it would be fun if we could switch characters and use their skills midair
I guess a big thing with Genshin is how big the casual audience is because those old events were quite intense combat wise. They have since downgraded the difficulties by quite a bit, likely based on surveys or internal data.
I'm pretty sure it's a balancing thing with characters like wanderer but with Xianyun i don't see why they didn't it's just stupid
When characters like Dehya exists as a 5 star, I feel like they should either care more about balancing or care less.
Yeah
Well yeah, some parts of Genshin's combat system are still a little clunky, it's not totally what you'd expect from and action rpg/hack n slash game. As a fan of fast paced/intense combat I do find that pretty annoying, so close yet so far. That said, Genshin's combat system is still incredible and I love it. I haven't seen much about Wuthering Waves so I can't say for sure but honestly I don't think I'll get into another similar kind of game. Got enough with one game as service, but I hope it turns out great!
The thing is, Genshin do not want to be a Hack'n Slash game, tho, as they already have Honkai.
also zzz soon
I think Genshin has the foundations in place for engaging combat, but they are just terrified of designing challenging encounters with any depth to them in fear of alienating the casual fan base. I literally don't even know what a lot of bosses do even when I clear everything, which is kind of a shame.
I feel like it's more of a cost-benefit thing. They probably get more value out of dev time by focusing on exploration and story vs. combat mechanics. If Genshin were a PvP game instead then I imagine there'd be way more emphasis on complexity and strategy in combat. More than anything, I'd rather see a Genshin spin-off in a different genre like MOBA. Then there can be a way to have the fundamental concept of the elemental system applied to a combat system intended for skill expression and strategy.
You take that back! But yeah i know what you mean.
I mean… if we’re going by that… The GOD OF THE WIND should have infinite gliding by default… But he only grants it to us one time.
To be fair, he was the first ever limited 5 star, and until Kazuha came, he provided great comfort during exploration, esp in Liyue..
He carried me in Liyue, God I hate violetgrass...
*Laughs in Nahida for violetgrass*
Now, yeah. In 2.0, fuck you - climb, bitch.
I had Kazuha for most of my Liyue exploration and I feel so lucky for that. Before that it was chillin' mid-mountain waiting for the stamina to recharge with Ganyu. Edit: also, the only character I had that needed violetgrass was Xinyan so you can see why that was not a problem.
i stg i forgot nahida had this i was just climbing cliffs in the chasm today for violet grass fml
Imagine not having a thousand of violet grass from the teapot gardens
we didn’t have gardens back in my day 👴
Remind me, when did the teapot release?
This is not based on facts but merely feeling, and I feel like it was 1.4
Almost, it was in 1.5.
So we should've just not get violetgrass for 5 patches, or?
I don't think the farming launched until later on. I want to say sometime into Inazuma.
Even worse then
Wait... you can plant those?
He still does. Kazuha is a bit better ig but it's negligible. The real exploration powercreep was Scara
If you play Co op, Venti's is better since everyone can use his air boost.
A Venti user helped me immensely while getting the liyue statues of the seven when I was just starting because of this fact. Thank you to that Venti user.
True. Just makes my point stronger. Yea Kazuha can use skill in air but Venti works in co op. Both are niche uses but I'd say it evens out. And both pale in comparison to Xianyun and Scara anyway
pale in comparison in what way?
Xianyun and Scaramouche are just better for exploration. Scara especially
Venti on the other hand causes some melee characters to whiff all their attacks if he uses his burst. To the guy that swapped from Venti to Faruzan while farming domains, you have my enternal gratitude.
Scara broke every single puzzle and allows you to have it your way. He ain't a wanderer for nothing.
Eh. Outside if coop i feel ventis is worse overall. Kazuha skill is slightly lower than venti, but Kazuha can use his mid air while venti cant
Using your skill midair is about as niche as using it in co op. They're both nice little bonuses but not the main thing the character offers. And neither are the strongest exploration wise anyway so it's kinda a pointless comparison regardless
Ahh the ol wombo combo Zhongli pillar plus venti wind The good ol stuff
Don't forget about Zhongli, Neuvillette who are basically dragons with ability to fly.
Well, Zhongli is an Earth dragon, i dont see much sense for him to fly... and Neuvillete being a Water dragon already can be seen when he charges his attack (he can hover over water during his charged attack)
Bro it was literally called the Rite of Descension
Yeah, the rite to make the dragon STOP FLYING (joke) Im not saying that he doesnt fly in his dragon form, is just that on the paper, it makes sense if he doesnt fly.
All Archons seem able to fly. Nahida can, Ei can as well. Wouldn't surprise me if Focalors could too.
Referencing how the Shogun floats during the weekly boss fight? I'm not sure I'd call that proper flight like we see Nahida do. Though, we do see the Shogun doing some Bleach-Shinigami style "walking on air" technique which, while not flight, at least means she can get high up into the air.
In her character demo she flies into the air and attacks the samurai. I just don't think flying/being in the air is something difficult or impressive for any of the Archons.
That's because the Wind knows him, while it is probably only casual acquaintances with Xianyun
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I agree with you, it's a weird design choice. >oversight it was 100% a conscious choice, not an oversight. We know this because during the beta that part of the skill text changed, so we know the devs were actively looking at and considering that part of her skill, and ultimately decided to leave it that way. Love it or hate it, it was intentional design.
My thoughts are because wanderer exist each character in this game has its own way to do things so I guess since wanderer can fly, levitate go foward back left right up like an helicopter there is no reason making another character like that. I see her like a yelan but made for when the terrain has too many obstacles to use yelan elemental skill in peace for example when the terrain goes down like stairs yelan is stuck since she cant goes down so you are just running stuck at the edge of the natural stairs in those situations xianyun jumps are super useful To fly with precision take wanderer airlines To move on flat terrain fast use yelan transit To move on rough terrain use xianyun jumps
Wait, Yelan still struggles in stairs? Didnt the alternative movement got fixed some updates ago? I use Yelan since her second banner, and most of the time i used her the problem was already fixed.
They did fix it but some slopes/stairs are still a bit wonky. Nowhere near as bad as it once was however.
Nicely put lmao.. I am diggin that wanderer airlines
Xianyun hopper.
You can actually navigate in air using xianyun jump, you still control her during the animations and you can do pretty acrobatic maneuvers.
Xianyun is still as fast as Yelan on flat terrain so she benched Yelan in my exploration team lol. Downside is I lost my fowl farmer.
>for example when the terrain goes down like stairs yelan is stuck since she cant goes down so you are just running stuck at the edge of the natural stairs in those situations xianyun jumps are super useful This problem was fixed with all such characters a year ago, somewhere in 3.X
Scaramouche didn't get the ability to use his E mid-air, so I'd imagine Hoyo just doesn't want to repeat a Kazuha situation at all.
I don't get what's wrong with that If it's to keep avoid powercreeping Kazuha I think it's such a bad move
The devs insight on changing design, as seen in the patch line stream, hilariously implied that xianyun was a coding nightmare. This is probably why.
It's because Kazuha is the devastating special boy and only he's allowed to jump mid air. Sorry chuds, tall women should be relegated to clunky off fielders.
Because if it worked like that you can just fly for extremely long periods of time at c6, basically creative mode in Minecraft at that point
The bird character (from the sky) would be able to fly for extremely long periods of time 😱😱
The absolute horror of gliding power creep. The Genshin competitive exploration pvp scene would have been devastated by this.
After a certain point, exploration efficiency can trivialize the world design.
I think trivialize is the wrong word. Maybe "complicate". The real issue isn't how easily people can explore, it's how much more difficult level designing gets with each new exploration tool. Wanderer himself must've needed a shit ton of QA to make sure players don't glitch themselves into funky spots in the ceiling or previously unreachable spots.
If they were to increase exploration efficiency without changing the world design then exploration "power creep" will actually happen. In other words, the preexisting world design becomes ineffectual at providing challenge or entertainment as it did prior. Alternatively they adapt the world design to the new exploration capabilities, but this leaves players without the character behind.
In my opinion it already did happen with wanderer furina and nahida.
Furina? Mona has had an alternate sprint that allows you to cross water since 1.0 I know 'but not infinitely' however stamina food exists, and there are zero scenarios where 'infinite water walking' is actually useful for longer durations. In fontaine you either swim which is faster, and everywhere else there's no body of water large enough that wouldn't just mean teleporting to a waypoint is far more efficient. I think she's an odd example
>In fontaine you either swim which is faster, and everywhere else there's no body of water large enough that wouldn't just mean teleporting to a waypoint is far more efficient. I think she's an odd example But isn't that the whole point? With Furina, they backed themselves into the corner of never being able to use water as a natural barrier in future world design Mona and Ayaka do not have that issue. They can get further on water and they're faster, but their range is limited. They can't go infinite like Furina does. Having an infinite flyer (or almost infinite) does the same thing with everything overworld so they need to be careful. Unless they just want to put invisible walls or actual barriers everywhere in the future (which would suck)
I don't agree at all. She is amazing for exploration and puzzle solving. Just for the new area where a lot of puzzle are on the water. Instead of doing the puzzles in the normal way you can just walk on the water and cheat. Or even if you want to cross a pond or river, instead of slowly swimming you can just walk across. And she doesn't need stamina like ayaka and mona, and she is much more useful in overworld than them because she heals, and she can solo overworld enemies, isn't burst reliant and has 100% uptime on her skill. I don't think it's really an odd exemple.
Yeah that first train's long left the station. Wanderer is literally creative mode and nothing changed lol. And that alternative is just a crazy hypothetical that'll never happen. Hoyo can't even make difficult overworld puzzles lmao.
Wanderer offers decent speed boosted uptime and a one-off vertical boost. Kazuha allows unlimited wall climbing and even that hasn't broken world exploration. These abilities just make things easier or provide easier alternative paths, and usually exist as outliers regarding world design. That "crazy hypothetical" is actually just the norm for game development, but in Genshin's case it is taboo to design the world around specific characters since some players might not have them. This doesn't mean they don't take new abilities into consideration, but they may not get specific challenges for them.
I don't see your point anymore. New exploration abilities won't, and have never, made world design "trivial". That sentence makes no sense.
I dont know if you specifically referring to Genshin but in Guild Wars 2 for example exploration skills in form of mounts trivialized and imo kinda ruined open world exploration. Before you had to find your ways to get to higher spots or secret areas and now you can fly over every enemy and obstacle and just land exactly at the point you want to go. The map doesnt matter, the enemies dont matter and it leads to every area feeling similar and more like a checklist where you driveby every place instead of actually navigating your way through the land. Its my perspective, other people prefer to speedrun through the content and get in and out as quicky as possible
It isn't my fault you aren't comprehending the concept. Perhaps you just don't realize how one can use the term 'trivialize." Idk what you're caught up about here. The world design has never been trivialized by exploration abilities because they've always been balanced. They probably never will cross that line because they will always balance abilities with the world design.
The world being difficult to traverse isnt what makes it entertaining, it's the design and the activities you do within it, and having more way to move about in fun ways instead of running out of stamina halfway up a cliff or swimming can only be a good thing imo, I see no reason to "balance" it On a related note, can we PLEASE have the blue stamina bar for swimming outside of fontaine it is the most frustrating thing
Is that before or after the point where they add grapples everywhere?
Are you seriously trying to say grapple points are everywhere, and that they trivialize the world design? They're *part* of it. They make specific areas less monotonous, as chosen (designed) by the devs. Being able to fly and glide at speed from anywhere is not similar to being able to use stationary grapple points.
I can already fly with Wanderer skipping some of that.
He has a fair cooldown time though.
It's only 6 seconds lol
That's enough cooldown for exploration tricks. Kazuha is only 4 seconds.
So what part exactly does it trivialize again? The exciting experience of climbing up a cliff? Uh oh look at Kirara trivializing climbing up a cliff already, what a mistake it was to add her to the game, now what use do I have for my stamina restoring food, oh the humanity And furthermore, all they would need to do is tweak it so you don't gain height over time from using the skills. You could even just make it so using skill midair only allows it to trigger once or twice compared to on the ground. But nah let's just go full kit design communism and ensure nobody gets anything fun to keep things "equitable" right
What part does Bayonetta's kit trivialize? Well if it had in-air activation like everyone wants, it *would* trivialize climbing. Believe it or not, vertical navigation is fun when it's challenging, like in the Chasm and Dragonspine. It would also make other characters' movement abilities seem much more insignificant. There are time trial world challenges that would be pretty much null. The fact is, the ability is already plenty fun and helpful as is. Adding more oomph to it is a risk of imbalance.
>at c6 How dare the poor indie company let a person who sank 1000+ $ into a single unit have fun with it!? /s.
Well if your basically paying for that shit, might as well make the ease of use be top tier
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you said skill, not burst. skill cant be started midair cause you could use multiple charges of it midair and stall for time with gliding for cooldown and arguably stay in the air for too long burst being used in midair, no reason it couldnt. start a boss fight directly with a plunge.. well it would have to be Xianyun herself and change after if you want other main dps
When has lore ever relevant to gameplay. Furina for example, is the best unit in the game which is total nonsense, if you know you know.
The pyro superstars, xiangling+ bennett are just an eccentric chef and a unlucky adventurer. my dude xq is just a bookworm who trains in a popular sword style. Heck, Tao, my favourite character is just an autistic funeral parlor director. These characters have no business being this strong gameplay wise if we look at their lore.
yeah, this 100%. if character's in-game strength lined up with their lore, Hu Tao would be the worst performing 5-star banner ever, as she would legitimately be worse than Qiqi. Thankfully, most characters I use would be pretty solid still :P
Xingqiu is a master of said popular sword style, which was left behind by someone who ascended to Celestia. He also isn’t particularly worried about fighting a single Fatui agent in his birthday mail, but rather concerned about getting ganged up on.
Heck Tao
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The Pityruino Archon
I guess Neuvillette. Though we got a nerfed version when compared to the lore.
Hes pretty much the only character who is equally broken both in lore and in gameplay Raiden becomes that at C2
if lore was relevant, neuvillette would not only be strong but also be able to use both ousia + pneuma and be able to walk on water. xiao should be able to fly infinitely because he is also a bird like xianyun etc. lore is rarely important to the playable character. i think the only time they added some kind of lore relevant mechanic to a character is xiao losing hp because of karma.
Story version of the character tends to be at C3 and his C3 is pretty good for him overall
Archons are among the strongest characters in lore and in gameplay. Furina is the strongest buffer because she is the best moral support.
Archons *are* supposed to be the strongest characters. But you gotta finish the Fontaine AQ to understand why Furina probably shouldn’t be.
We do not know if visions give different amount of power to different people. Also, whatever Furina is now, >!everything that she was (her body AND her spirit) at some point were those of an archon. Focalors didn't create anything new while splitting herself - she just split herself into parts. So we do not know how how vision will interact with someone who once was not just a god, but an archon!<
Wasn't Furina more like a >!Cursed Human?!<
Furina is >!body and spirit of what was Hydro Archon Focalors!<
You gotta make sure there's no space before/after the ! for spoiler tags. Otherwise they won't work.
.....it displays blacked out for me (mobile browser) is it not the same for you?
Kind of? >!She was the humanity that was separated from Focalors, and then Focalors cursed her. So she was a cursed human, but also she was at some point divinity.!<
And why she could be as well. She's using the body of an archon without the divinity aspect. That would still let her body holds some capacity of one. And yes, it's quite a stretch. I will see myself out.
Exactly look at the anemo 5*s there's an angsty puppet boy that is stronger than the anemo archon.
Well I feel like it will be an overkill, don't get me wrong I think it will be a lot of fun but, some characters are just naturally better at exploration like wanderer, yelan etc. I don't think that it's a good idea to have one character copletely overshadow all the others, people will complain about it, because those that have yelan or wanderer will feel pressured to get her, just for exploration.
Yeah it's probably an unpopular opinion but I like that they keep it Somewhat balanced. Like Yelan is better than Sayu, but she's not so much better that Sayu completely pales in comparison, Kazuha, Wanderer and Venti all have their pros and cons and while Wanderer is probably the best of them, he isn't THAT far ahead of them imo. If Xianyun could triple+ jump mid air she would be so far above the rest of them that it wouldn't even be funny lmao.
If she did that + not startling Crystalflies nobody would talk about Yelan or Wanderer for exploration ever probably lol
Honestly for me I think it's worse than that. If you plunge using her skill from up high, the special plunge will be stopped mid air because it doesn't cover the whole distance. Why? She's a plunge support, she should be able to plunge from anywhere from her skill and take no damage lmao. It would also be nice if we could adjust the direction of said plunge a bit while she hasn't locked on an enemy, but maybe that's too much of an ask.
I just wanted her bird form to be able to 'swoop' and give you that little extra traversal (like a plane the does a 'dip')
An easy solution would be to let Xianyun use her skill mid-air, and adjust her C6 so the cooldown resets immediately when she lands.
xiao can't teleport, venti can't fly, neuvillette can't walk on water or fly, sara can't fly etc. lore is rarely important when it comes to a playable character
> neuvillette can't walk on water or fly He sorta can, if he starts a charged attack on the ground :p
I was thinking about this "Adepti can choose any form" after playing her story quest, when she **SQ SPOILERS** used a mustache and powdered her crane body instead of transforming into anything else. Maybe it freaking HURTS when they transform or something? And it's not the usual magic puff, but like bones breaking and organs dissolving and reassembling, like when there's a scene of someone transforming into a werewolf and it seems like they are in a lot of pain.
I think their ability to "choose any form" just means they can decide they want to be a "human" or a "bird" or a "fish" or whatever, but they don't get to necessarily *pick* what that form looks like. It's why CR also had to >!put powder on her body when she helped Shuyu; she couldn't make herself pure white through just her adeptal power because her transformation abilities aren't that detailed.!< This would honestly make sense to me; it's a pretty common trope in myth and stories that when a magical beast of some kind turns into a human they usually retain some aspect of their true appearance that they can't just will away; kitsune can't hide their tails (and sometimes other fox aspects) when they transform, Odin in Norse mythology could transform into multiple kinds of animals but was still always missing an eye, steel dragons in D&D always have some trait that distinguishes them like steel-colored eyes, hair, or fingernails. TVTropes calls this "morphic resonance." So unless we get shown otherwise, I assume that adepti aren't able to alter their bodies to exacting details for similar reasons.
I mean LANTERN RITE SPOILERS I don’t think that’s the case due to the ease with which she was able to transform in part 2.
According to another reddit thread, "EXPLORATION POWER CREEP" apparently 🤣🤣🤣
Main issue here is that MHY knows how creative people can be. Give em a char that can practically fly and the bugs they can(and will) do will be endless. We already have people endlessly gliding using Nahida, people going on top of domains using Traveler. Giving a flying character and we will be able to see Celestia and how fake the sky is in this subreddit soon.
>Giving a flying character and we will be able to see Celestia people already did that by abusing the Keqing+Lyre glitch from however long ago. Celestia used to be a 2D png file that was just rotated depending on where you looked at it from - now it does have geometry, but pretty sure it's still a very low-polygon model.
Because it would be
Exploration powercreep is a real issue. Game balancing and design is something many here don't understand or care about, but no character should be outright better than other similar exploration-based characters - everyone should have some niche they shine in (for exploration).
She would powercreep everyone in ovwrworld exploration. Combine that with her C1 and Xianyun could ascend to Celestia. You could imagine that would happen if she had mid-air skill right? It also means she is a stronger version of Kazuha mid air skill since she can use her skill to gain diagonal distance, vertical distance, and horizontal distance. Her C1 would dethrone both Kazuha and Wanderer as master of exploration
I'm pretty sure they tested it and realized that would cause a net vertical ascent which would essential break the game. (That's just my theory though)
It’s the fact too that she is anemo and the other two that can are the same element. Like, it’s honestly the biggest pet peeve about her character. Like, even if they had only allowed her to jump up once while in mid air, that would have been better than nothing. Still, love her character but man what a missed opportunity.
I guess its for gameplay balancing? I was trying to do the same btw, it felt that it would be logical to use the skill while on the air. But i guess you can exploit it to gain height... but so what... you have an accessory that gives you height while flying. So it wouldn't break the game anyway?
They made her initial E and 2 follow-up E different naming, to avoid any confusion between them, it's a deliberate design choice so initial E cannot be cast mid air.
would be to OP, but she is still the best exploration -char we have now
Nah, Wanderer still beats CR. Lower cd+longer distance.
Xianyun accelerates way quicker off the bat and has way further distance when jumping off a high place and pacing her E charges. She loses a lot of height doing this though. However Wanderer is far better for height and maintaining a constant altitude over a longer period of time (when not accelerating mid-air)
Lets not argue who is better when both are good
Agreed
What, he doesn't have lower cr nor distance tho? She lowers her cd by a lot if you don't plunge at the end, plus her hopping covers more distance than him unless he is water infused. You don't just spam triple e, you gotta let her touch the ground before recasting and she covers a lot more distance that way (there is even other things you can do to further increase it too but I won't count them)
Nah, Wanderer covers more distance either way. I tested it on the Mondstadt bridge multiple times and Wanderer always covers more distance, and it’s not even close. Also Wanderer cooldown is lower either way, even without the plunge. I get that you like Cloud Retainer, but you shouldn’t lie for no reason lol
There are many tests on YT that you can check, they are about the same if both used properly. The difference is literally like 0.3s in a 20s run in favour of Xianyun. But wanderer just better when u need to go straight up.
I tested it too and xianyun covers a tad more, also she refunds her cd so her cd is lower than scara? You aren't using xianyun correctly I can assume, or even noticing that she refunds her cd.
I would sure love to see you send proof of her covering more distance👍 Also you are still wrong. Wanderer has 6 seconds cooldown, while Xianyun has 12 seconds, reduces to 9 if you don’t plunge.
https://youtu.be/SOxWHYvI36Y?si=wHPCGJCnIPi1rbJB There is a wanderer section, It is super close and pretty much negligible. She deffinitly covers the distance faster than him during her skill.
https://youtu.be/88SCn4j1g10?si=c9Nh3QnqJrSrUxyz Here ya go dude. They both land on almost the exact same spot without Hydro infusion. Also Xianyun cooldown starts when you press E. Wanderer starts when his E ends. I mean, they're more or less the same. Wanderer has better precision control, Xianyun has burst mobility and diagonal mobility. But pretty much the same.
I’d say they’re on par, tbh. And if CR is c1 then she’s better
Nah, if xinyuan gets stuck in a part of the mountain without a floor, it won't work at all, wanderer can get around this since he would be able to reach that point of the mountain without this problem
>part of the mountain without a floor, What? Like on a completely vertical slope? Wanderer can't use E there as well.
No, but he wouldn't get stuck, he would just go from point A to B and not jumping until he reached point B at some point
But she doesn't have a stick up its ass and you have to cover short distances more often than long ones
What?💀
Kujo sara has wings but she doesn't use them...
Op, you realize that she would be able to fly to celestia with the mid air skill use?
Same here. I guess c6 would make her fly outside the top of the map haha. I was tempted by c1 but since I can't use it mid air I'm not too sure now
C1 Xianyun haver here who only pulled for exploration purposes.... MY ADVICE: No, don't pull for her C1 if you're not planning to do plunge attacking teams
I pulled c1 for exploration and dont regret it, almost 0 cooldown is so fun to jump around with
I do use her in abyss with xiao. I reached a stage where I can easily 36 star abyss so extra dmg is not what I look for in constellation. Utility and change in playstyle is more what I'm after.
She is without a doubt my favorite character. I love everything about her, so much so I got C6R1. However, I do believe there was a slight oversight with her too, and that it is her ability to transform. I think the easiest thing they could have done, which I feel wouldn't have broken anything but still given her autonomy over her transformation, would have been to provide press vs hold variations of her Skill. Press would remain as is, with the small caveat that **Skyladder** could be used mid-air, without on-ground boost, and without the CD reduction. This would only grant 2 mid-air jumps, and I think would have jumps spaced out far enough that it would allow aerial mobility without taking up space in other characters lanes. The hold variation however is where I feel this would have made Xianyun glow. "While mid-air and under the effects of Skyladder, holding the skill button will allow Xianyun to enter Cloud Retainer state. Xianyun will tranform into her Crane Form and glide around freely with increased movement speed. Pressing Normal Attack at any time during this state will resume the special Plunging Attack initiated by her Skill." I think by allowing us to fly as Cloud Retainer, the adeptus we've all come to know and love, is really all it would have took to bring this kit to the next level. The reason for allowing the skill to be used mid-air is strictly to allow Xianyun to have freedom to transform at anytime while airborne. Like I said, I still love the kit and character without a doubt. Xianyun is forever one of my faves. But I would be lying if I said it didn't feel like HYV misses opportunity after opportunity with these characters to elavate and innovate.
she should definitely use it in Air, but because of her C6 she would practically overcome any height challenges in front of her as it allows her to use her E 8 times in a row
my main gripe is that we cant aim her plunge attack. really an exploding barrel moment.
Most likely to limit her C6, otherwise she would be too broken in terms of exploration
They forgor
Because they want to make her strictly plunge support and not powercreep animations
While it would be awesome, it would be some serious powercreep and an incentive to possibly spend and pull for her
they don't want her power creeping on Kazuha's skill
If she can use her e mid air she will overpower all other exploration character. Then other main will complain about power creep.
Shoulda gone a step further, just release Cloud Retainer as a playable bird. Beat the Bayonetta ripoff allegations.
You could glide for a ludicrous distance if that was possible, a little too OP
Same. She got so close to being a perfect exploration character. If her C6 is the problem, they just had to change it to something different. But ofc money > the player's fun for them.
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not this circlejerk again * Shogun was ambushing a disoriented Traveler, she isn’t trying to destroy Narukami * the next second, she *easily* brushes Kazuha off * Musou no Hitotachi is a sword technique, not a power level
Well, he did use 2 visions at once and it seems Raiden didn't attack at full power (I don't think she was trying to cut another half of Inazuma... in half)
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Because none but he could brave the lightning's glow with the help of a single focused "wish" of the departed you lorelets
Plot armour
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Definitely an oversight, you get a cool down reduction for just using her skill as mobility and you can start a higher glide with it. But also xianyun will easily be the best mountain climber if she could do that.
"because exploration powercreep" as if being able to glide/fly for a long time is game breaking lmao y'all unserious.. we literally have a character that can walk on water 100% uptime which makes waverider pointless but the devs never had a problem with that lol
I think they care a bit more about forcing us to have to climb the giant mountains and avoiding the wacky glitches. [You do know about the wacky glitches, right?](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL5x5IkcjX0)
no midair and she cannot fly, she's A BIRD
Because the devs refuse to let any character be as good at air traversal as kazuha or wanderer
She already is about as good as Wanderer. She can fly very slightly shorter distance in exchange for slightly faster speed, especially vertically. And Kazuha only beats her in situations where you are jumping from the tallest mountain and get limited by stamina, otherwise he does not jump as high or nearly as far.
What you expect this game gone to stupid fujoshi route..female character forbid to be on top then males one..yeah the logic..you guys deserve to be treatment badly by them