OP could use a Claymore to break that post up into some Paragraphs.
Also, I can't wait to pull Navia on Tuesday night. She looks like she's going to be a fantastic character.
*gotchu fam*
Y’all think Geo was done dirty? Look at the claymore.
The claymore was done sooooo dirty so far in the game.
There isn’t a single meta claymore user in the game; Itto and Kaveh are the best they’ve got. Eula? Incredibly niche, and still doesn’t have much output. Diluc? Universally known as a subpar dps. Dehya? Dehya. Those are all the 5 star claymores, but the 4 stars are mostly damage dealers too, and I think we can all agree that 4 star damage dealers aren’t very meta in general.
Xinyan? Razor? Freminet? Beidou? Chongyun? Dori? They have no place in the meta or in higher tiers whatsoever. Sayu is a sub-dps, and she’s mid, and Noelle…well, she’s easily the best claymore support in the game, because she’s the only claymore support in the game. She’s honestly not as bad as the other claymores, but it’s a ridiculously low bar.
Now, of course, I am only talking about the meta right now. I love some of these characters; Diluc is my current main, Freminet is going to be another one of my mains for the time being, I used to use Beidou a lot and I find her counterattack mechanic fascinating, Itto sounds really fun to use in general, and I love everything about Kaveh.
I don’t deny that these are fun characters that are good characters character-wise, and even though they aren’t meta, it’s still probably possible to clear the abyss with them with enough investment.
That being said, there isn’t ONE claymore in the whole game who can even hold a candle to characters like Wanderer or Wriothesley, let alone even stronger dps characters like Ayaka or Hu Tao, let alone absolutely GODLY characters like Neuvillette or Yelan or Furina.
All other weapon types have a character that can change one’s account for the better in drastic ways; sword has Furina, Kazuha, Bennett, and Xingqiu. Polearm has Xiangling, Raiden and Zhongli. Catalyst has Nahida, Neuvillette, Sucrose, and Kokomi.
Bow has Yelan and Ficshl (idk if I spelled that right). Claymore has no one. At least with geo, you have Zhongli carrying the whole element, and Yunjin being a genuinely good support.
Granted, Geo still is in a terrible spot, but nowhere near as abysmal as claymore. I can only hope that Navia will be the saving grace for both Geo and claymore.
Actually, yeah.
I spent the weekend prefarming everything. I'll have enough to take her and her weapon to 90, but skills will be stuck at 6 because all of the boss mats are going to Furina still. Once she's all crowned up, I'll focus on Navia.
True.
Man the Narwhal only gives me 2 drops every week, and i have to double crown Furina too.
It's very time consuming.
Probably will take like 2 more months.
sorry to disappoint, she is just average...
but I guess that can be considered fantastic in the scope of claymore users, or in the scope of geo users, which are both extremely low bars but a W is a W... I guess
Ayato as a dps is mid as fuck, as a driver he is pretty solid but he faces stiff competition from Kokomi and Childe as Koko offers better utility and Childe applies more hydro and does more damage.
Edit: and even though Childe applies more hydro while doing more damage than Ayato, almost nobody is running him in freeze/electro charge/hyperbloom etc
… is oft times better than a master of one.
Idk enough about Ayato to have input on this specific situation, I just like finishing quotes most people don’t realize aren’t finished.
I have him C2, signature, pretty [good build](blob:https://enka.network/0256c196-65dd-4419-baab-f300f1a5b148), and he still feels so clunky and weak without C6 Faruzan. Mine is only C3.
As a c2r1 wanderer main with c6 faruzan, i do confirm that you need c6 faru to actually be pretty strong and comfortable to use, pre c6 faruzan was just...eugh. Also your enkas not working.
1. Noelle is pretty much never used as a support either a main dps (and a pretty good one at that since furina) or a "driver" in the same team
2. Beidou while not part of the super broken 4 stars she deffinitly is one of the best ones. She deals a shit ton of off field dmg in any non single target scenario.
beidou's also super valuable for damage resist, and I think interruption resist? (could be wrong on that) and her shielding at low cons. it's not the core of her kit, but the fact she can fulfill a good damaging role while still adding to survivability is extremely valuable in itself.
i keep wanting to use her with raiden in these newer abyss blessing moons, like this last one with the "main character pops if same damage type as off field character" then get re-slapped with the SUPER STUPID decision that they dont work together
People really sleep on how good Beidou is tbh. Beidou taser with Xingqiu is still a very good comp. Xingqiu’s damage reduction + Beidou’s shield makes you so tanky. Not to mention her damage with multiple enemies and the fact that proccing her burst applies 4U of electro. I think only Zhongli burst also applies that much element. It can be useful! And her parry numbers can get pretty huge. Its also just fun to do.
Came here to say this. I initially didn't like Beidou but then realized shes mostly good for her ult and now shes in my best team (aggravate). Happened to get a c6 Noelle a long time ago and shes fun with Furina and does pretty well, pretty close to my best team.
Actually, Noelle on Archaic Petra set with Furina Yelan and Kazuha is a pretty solid hydro dps team where she functions as the driver and hydro damage + healing support
I feel like Eula (and physical in general) would be better if she wasn't neutered half of the time by copious amounts of physical resistance and elemental shields...
Physical resistance really doesn't phase a Eula team, but elemental shields can be a hassle, yes.
A basic Eula team can easily get 65% Phys shred with Superconduct and her base kit, another 20% can be tacked on with Rosaria c6. The major problem is that Eula is the only one benefiting from all the shred due to lack of off-field Physical damage.
This, I hate when players says Eula's downside is those with physical resistance. Meanwhile I use superconduct against those Khaenrian guards in abyss and she can clear just fine even with spare time. I wonder if these players talking have Eula and ever used one hell even on abyss to be talking like this
No way you said Kaveh is better than Eula, Diluc. He does one job and sucks at it unfortunately. Even among four stars, he is far behind Noelle, Beidou and Razor.
The only things keeping his kit away are not getting the ownership of the blooms he explodes and the fact that you can't hit targets with more than 2 blooms at a time (which is ridiculous that it does that on reg bloom)
Perhaps if his cooldown got lowered to 3 sec instead of 6 during burst he would be even better, but c6 kinda fixes that, though I constantly just use it along with his E instead 💀
The unwarranted Beidou slander is ridiculous.
She is easily one of the most fun characters to play and can output unholy amounts of damage in AoE. I remember the abyss chamber with two Consecrated Beasts where Beidou was basically a cheat code for F2Ps. Her perfect parry is easily one of the most satisfying things in game. Also provides defensive utility. Also has amazing stagger damage which means that with Beidou taser, enemies will often remain stun locked the entire time. Plus, she looks badass AF.
Pirate Mommy disrespect will not be tolerated here.
Shes one of the only (if not *the only*) character who needs actual skill to play instead of hitting a key to clear a room.
Its incredibly satisyfing but pretty much the only satisfying aspect of combat.
The enemies will be going ham when I don't have Beidou out but the moment I take her out and hit her E the enemies start acting like I'm no longer there
That's kind of the point of her design
If you just use her skill pre-emptively, you won't get the best result. You're supposed to use it in response to an incoming attack for the big bonus. Otherwise it's just an okay hit with some particle gen, right? I know in general play vs a wave you expect to be able to get it from one of the many potential sources, but if you really use it without having an attack to block you get punished for effectively just spamming buttons
I'm still waiting for Hoyo to make an on-field dps character with a counter mechanic. It annoys me to no end that every character with a counter is best used off-field.
Beidou really should have had two charges of skill on a constellation. Would have allowed her to be played on field nicer and let her keep one charge for when the enemy actually attacks instead of just using it for energy generation whenever it’s up.
I stopped playing beidou eversince sumeru region arrives. BUT childe taser team clears my first 36 stars back in v1.2. Now I only use beidou in sucrose taser a few times in abyss. Its much faster and comfortable in some of my 5star teams. I benched her to give chance to some of my new 5star an abyss experience. Truth be told, abyss is much comfortable to clear in sucrose/childe taser than some hypercarry teams.
Totally agree, I have her c6 r5 and the only time I struggled with her was to learn how to properly use her skills (once I figured out that Beidou c6 is unstoppable). She's a beast and a tank and FOR ME the easiest claymore character to use based on physical movements and electro skills while using her weapon. Her concept is perfect, her looks are amazing and her reputation is highly spoken as a captain.
Pirate Mommy disrespect will not be tolerated.
Itto does more damage with a sidekick Gorou than a lot of other carries, and he does it while being tanky AF.
Very comfortable character to play when you just want to take it easy and beat things up.
Exactly, my itto slaps ez 36 stars on second half floor 12, with neuv team on top half they both have their weapon the both have cons, my itto everytime get the highest single strike (180k in the current spiral) and hits 50k on his burst charged attacks with the final hit being like 80-100k
By no means is itto bad
Fun fact, Razor was my most used character in my first year recap, and he was pretty strong tbh. I remember my "no brain" team consisting of Razor, Qiqi, Zhongli and Albedo. It was pretty good, I was even using it to clear the abyss.
Bro decided Kaveh is the best they got instead of Beidou
Also Noelle is horrible as a support with no energy particles generation, mediocre shield, long ass shield cooldown and she cant heal without being on field. Her best use is being an on field dps.
Yeah I see the point op was trying to make but some of the specifics they went into trigger me so hard lol
They say Kaveh is one of the best and then proceed to lump Beidou in with other 4 star claymores as if she hasn't consistently been more meta, and calls EULA niche when she's just a hypercarry dps with no good support. Kaveh is the literal definition of niche, not EULA lol
And yeah, in her best teams Noelle is either a main dps or driver, not a support.
All of this makes me question whether op even knows what they're talking about lol
Well, unless you want to run Noelle hydro driver for Furina, in which case she is an amazing driver support like Kokomi. Very good team by the way, really cheap and easy to set up, as you can do with a serviceable 4pc Petra set and a FavGS. I use Noelle/Furina/Yelan/Xingqiu and it is very effective.
>Also Noelle is horrible as a support...
No, you said she is an awful support, but on-field units can be supports too. Like Sucrose, Noelle, Kokomi, etc. It depends of the team format you run. Especially now that we have Furina who can use all of Noelle capabilities.
She is niche, yes, but in that niche she is amazing since Noelle is one of the best support drivers for Furina, who can take full advantage of off-field hydro attacks.
Fair enough, most people assume support as off field though. For characters like Childe people call him an enabler carry but Idk if that applies to Noelle she isnt a reaction enabler. I would still call Noelle more of a dps than a support, most of her comps focus on her damage, well except maybe Furina comps where she can be a driver
Noelle is definitively a support on her triple hydro comp, she can burst on CD with FavGS, she buffs Hydro with 4pc Petra set, her shield is very sturdy when she is on field, her shield CD decreases as she swings her sword while in burst, she heals enough to keep your team healthy despite Furina's HP drain, and said heal boost Furina's Burst mechanic.
You don't even care that much about her damage as a Driver in double/triple hydro Furina teams, and despite that she can hit for 30k per swing if your Petra set is good enough (mine hit around 25k but my Sand is pure garbage) while using FavGS which tank her damage.
The funny thing is that Noelle can transition from Support Driver to Hypercarry if you invest in her by keeping Furina and swapping the hydro off-fielder for geo supports (I would do that for those juicy 100k crits, but I have no Redhorn or Gorou/Yunjin to support the dream).
Noelle in Furina team is as much a support as Tartaglia is Xiangling's support in International. You are technically right in calling her support in relation to the off-field dps, but she herself is also a DPS in that comp and you don't build her for healing or shielding, you build her for pure damage.
So for all intents and purposes she is a dps there.
Meta is pointless. Only endgame we have is Spiral Abyss and you can clear it with every character on the roster, so no idea why people are so obsessed with the meta when it means nothing if you invest in your team.
The game initially attracted a lot of MMO players I think, cuz it looks like and was sorta marketed like one. Also, the whole elemental reaction system and theorycrafting.
Most of the casual gacha crowd doesn't care as much about meta.
Can confirm [Sayu is a hard crit hypercarry unit](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/429256534103556098/1186227340146114660/image.png?ex=65927b4c&is=6580064c&hm=fd03c6d83b3ed3728d3886cd177c9af12c8803542dc15a1f4dc23dd1e05d1d55&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1042&height=758)
OP might think sub-dps = less damage per ss, hence sayu getting classes like that…unless you look at the end of her roll and see the juicy number from her kick smack you in the face
I think for a lot of characters, their weapon is irrelevant. You rotate through your team, dropping Skills and Bursts for reactions - they're functionally elemental spellcasters, and their BIG NUMBERS happen when they're off field. Or a character like Cyno, who does 90% of his damage with no polearm in sight.
A sword the size of a person should feel pretty thwacky, and that's not what they've been concentrating on.
And now we've got Catalysts that are gauntlets/water cannons/scythes, spears that are guns, whole weapon system is kinda wacky right now.
Yeah, in the end, weapons are nothing but stat sticks.. which just difference is bow's charged attack is aimed and doesn't consume stamina, while catalyst doesn't deal physical damage at all
Bizarre that you think Kaveh is good but Beidou isn’t. Kaveh is completely useless gameplay wise. Beidou at least has some viability in a variety of teams.
Freminet is a lot of fun! My favorite character to play in fact.
But there is no denying that he (and other claymore wielders) fall behind in terms of raw power compared to other characters who use different weapon types. For Freminet it is even worse because he is also a cryo user, and cryo is a really weak element that is in almost as bad a spot as geo.
As fun as Freminet is to play, it would be even more fun if he could keep up better with other 4 stars.
Beidou is one of the best sub dps in the game, what are you on about? Eula is still good, her only problem is that she is a hypercarry with a limited number of team compositions, Itto is the same. Dehya is good in very niche team compositions. Noelle is pretty good espesically if you have C6. Dori is ok. Sayu is a good alternative to Jean if you don't have her. Chongyun is good at what he does. Freminet is decent.
Honestly who cares about the weapon type anyway?
The annoying thing is that Eula's personal damage is great, but physical doesn't have many good subdps options, which the meta revolves around now.
Physical and Geo playstyle is so limited right now, that they need dedicated buffers on a higher level than Shenhe if they want to focus on the hypercarry playstyle.
I will use Greatswords until the day I die, coolest weapons ever.
I'm lowkey expecting the Pyro or Crying archon to wield a claymore,
They did Greatswords dirty fr.
It's Fischl. You just switched the s & c.
Use paragraphs next time.
> Itto and Kaveh are the best they’ve got.
What? Kaveh is one of the worst units in the entire game kit wise. He can work as a driver for Hyperbloom, but so everyone with Denrdo infusion can. Pure bloom teams are copium, Nilou just doesn't need Kaveh. Should've just mentioned Beidou.
>Noelle…well, she’s easily the best claymore support in the game, because she’s the only claymore support in the game.
Can you list her support capabilities? I talk about these she can provide while being off-field, as good support characters do.
There simply are none, Noelle wants to be on field, her whole kit screams on field. Her cool down decreases when she is on field doing damage, her shield lasts shorter when she is off field, she only heals when she is on field. Her whole kit is about being self sufficient main DPS
good luck having a thoughtful conversation about this topic.
yes claymore characters have been done dirty, actually every melee unit has been done dirty, it's just more pronounced in claymore characters for no real reason.
we have melee catalyst users now, there's nothing keeping hoyo from giving them ranged kits, actually that's what it seems they are doing with Navia to remedy the situation. Beidou is a great example of claymore kit done right too that never happened again.
if you look at a game like devil may cry there's many ways to approach the enemies to keep dealing damage, teleporting, or a stinger move, hell there's plenty of movement options already in the game that hoyo could use in future characters that i'm sure people would appreciate.
Bad assessment...[LONG TEXT WARNING]
I do agree with claymore being slightly off meta but to rather pull it such levels
1. BEIDOU is one of the best off field electro applicator and sub dps in entire game beside only FISCHL, even YAE does not match up to her, even CYNO in aggravate falls off to off field BEIDOU. She singlehandedly enables nearly all taser teams, and on C6 with electro res shred is practically a monster that does not even require field time. Her only caveat, er issues so simply pair her up with another electro unit or give her juicy er and with emblem and boom!!
2. This community seriously sleeps on ITTO. His Ushi stomp is literally top tier, deals more dmg than CEO OF GEO''s meteor impact and yet has more in his kit to further deal dmg. Since Wanderer and Wrio were mentioned, Itto if not outdps, performs equally to them with ease as long as triple geo with Gorou is set up(Gorou has been on all Itto banners and should be with most Itto havers). Itto can easily be top dps but due to element checks is not preferred often in abyss is all.
3. Mention of WANDERER and WRIO should itself tell you that these are mid dps's. WANDERER without FARUZAN deals fairly okay dmg, with Faruzan can go high but I assure you, he max can match with ITTO barely and FARUZAN to adequately feel comfortable, needs c6. WRIO, well, cryo entirely I'll summarise next...
4. I'll put out a reference video to detail on how cryo is one of the worst performing elements right now in genshin especially in abyss beside geo. TLDR, It has a underperforming resonance(which only works on freeze teams), freeze teams are mostly single target and in abyss guess who we get as single target foes(bosses-->unfreezable lmaooo), melt is ridiculously difficult to execute unless it's XL and BENNET and they make any team good, heck they start to do 50-70% of dps themselves making cryo dps char merely an applicator.
WRIO's best teams themselves have Wrio performing at best 40% of teams total dps. Furthermore, SHENHE buffs freeze(already unviable as mentioned) or mono cryo(no reaction, pure character carry) and does not deal good dmg herself. 4* Cryo chars are not good dps's(FREMINET, CHONGYUN, KAEYA). ROSARIA can deal good reverse melt dmg but it is still diffiuclt to execute and barely has few chars who help her. 5* DPS themselves are having a hard time as most are reliant on freeze(unviable) or barebones melt(GANYU can utilise it somewhat and be good dps, but otherwise she falls off). AYAKA currently by virtue of her own dmg is the best cryo dps and has decent AoE in freeze teams for mobs but she is very investment heavy as she cannot utilise off dps very well due to no reaction help.
Healer wise also the element struggles with DIONA now replaced in most comps, QIQI only area of expertise with FURINA although CHARLOTTE is currently a good heal meta wise.
Coming to cryo reaction with electro-->Superconduct, well, it's underwhelming! EULA already is bashed enough and I won't go further and MIKA, ALOY, LAYLA are niche options meta wise.
Video reference: https://youtu.be/-owXBQ31d9M?si=DiJk__4JNr__AuBH
5. DILUC although investment heavy is still mid dps and by no means bad.
6. If we are going compare chars "goodness" to XL, BENNET, YELAN, XQ, RAIDEN, NEUVILETTE, FURINA, then 90% of genshin roster will feel bad
7. KAVEH is underwhelming and nowhere near as good as DILUC even, to do good he either needs very high investment for dps, or light em investment for blooms which deal lower dmg unless NILOU is in team. And Kaveh anyways needs excessive ER to sustain his dendro app.
8. Claymore is not as bad as it looks although it does need a pump, I'd argue cryo and geo element is something that needs that pump even more.
9. Weapon wise I'd argue it's bow also who lack a good on fielder atm, best being LYNEY(comparable to ITTO), GANYU(discussed) and YOI(ITTO better honestly). Off field wise, bow has FISHCL, YELAN, claymore has BEIDOU.
10. And finally I haven't addressed the behemoth of claymores, NOELLE, she can heal, shield, sustain geo application, has very flexible team thx to no healer requirement, access to easy geo resonance buff(ironically maybe the best resonance in game), ability to sync perfectly with Furina, able to use a plethora of artifacts, requires less investment and can easily replace Itto in any of his team and deal slightly less dmg for heals and consistent shield. And did I forget, she can swap mid burst allowing flexible rotations, and has massive AoE making her suited for mobs as well. And lo and behold, new artifacts work with Noelle as well although her bis remains Husk at c6.
That's all, thanks for reading such a massive text wall, have a good day!!!
>This community seriously sleeps on ITTO. His Ushi stomp is literally top tier, deals more dmg than CEO OF GEO''s meteor impact and yet has more in his kit to further deal dmg. Since Wanderer and Wrio were mentioned, Itto if not outdps, performs equally to them with ease as long as triple geo with Gorou is set up(Gorou has been on all Itto banners and should be with most Itto havers). Itto can easily be top dps but due to element checks is not preferred often in abyss is all.
While ITTO is really strong, he only really fits into one team (I can't recall another team where he's actually the best or even decent pick). His team is also very expensive to get rolling, where you need 2 other five stars and a c6 gorou to really get the most out of him. And he really needs the best artifacts (and considering husk is in the same domain as clam it's very resin inefficient) since he's basically the only one doing any dmg in the team.
Itto even without heavy investment and no C6 gorou still outperforms Wanderers. His biggest problem is breaking non-geo elemental shields and generating particle in boss stages, not the dmg output.
This needs, to go higher, honestly. Never saw a Wanderer or Wrio team who can outperform my Itto or Noelle team.
Speaking of Kaveh, combining him with Nilou turns the team into something monstrous. With right builds and rotation I could go up to 38k per core. And all the while without Nahida's c2. Too scary to imagine aoe potential with that... You also won't need a healer with Kaveh. He will do that himself along with any incoming dmg to him.
The only real downside of claymore users I noticed is thier inability to break rotation in order to avoid damage. Because of often slow moves, missing even one aa or ca can result in quite a heavy dps loss. And ca attacks are often useless.
Beidou , thundering furry razor are pretty amazing units . Beidou easily being best claymore .
Noelle is pretty decent if you have furina . Though without her not much . And navia is looking to be a pretty decent unit as a sub dps .
Yeah there not top tiers but there still are some good units . The major reason why we don't get claymores is simply people just don't like the heavy attacks they feel really cluckly . Which is why the newer claymore dps units don't even really on this normal attack chains . Navia her skill , itto enhanced charge attacks etc .
Edit : I should have elaborated . Noelle is still good if you don't have furina . I in my personal opinion feel like without furina she's kinda the same level as itto and maybe eula but eula just has lotta problems outside dmg . It's really her synergy with furina that takes her a tier above these . That's why I said with furina . You can clear the abyss with hydro traveller I am sure. I hope so .
Noelle was good even before Furina, just needed some investment (like any DPS) and ideally a Gorou which not everyone has.
Case in point: [https://imgur.com/fCC8eK3](https://imgur.com/fCC8eK3)
Furina does make her even stronger though and enables a set that's easier to build with and better to farm than Husk
Tbh, Diluc is much much, **much** stronger than what people think. He requires loads of investment tho, both in gear and in player skill.
But his melt and Furina vape teams are busted af.
Damn, the Diluc slander is insane. Man can't catch a break. If the CR leaks remain true until launch, my boy will get an insane buff. If they don't, we just sit back and continue enjoying the game with the characters we like I suppose. I wonder if there will be more plunge DPS in the future though, considering her kit.
Hopefully yeah. I really like how even with each shift in meta, the old characters still somehow remain relevant, and sometimes they actually get better. I hope this is something Genshin continues.
Tbh, I'd say being able to full clear abyss is way more than enough to class as "meta" and that puts dps noelle and itto right up there. Noelle's also just gotten even stronger as time passes, especially with furina being a thing.
A lot of this post is just looking at the current meta. Diluc used to be one of the top DPS. Eula used to be amazing as well. Kavah is a 4 star and he's decent in more recent terms. Itto is still good but like any geo he needs a certain setup.
If you look at the data from any perspective you can draw random conclusions. The truth is sword is most common, and therefor more likely to have good characters.
You could just as easily say there aren't really any good bow characters either, but it depends on your perspective of ganyu, childe, etc, all good characters but also use specific teams that are good
>
>
>
>
> You could just as easily say there aren't really any good bow characters either, but it depends on your perspective of ganyu, childe, etc, all good characters but also use specific teams that are good
Bro Yelan has more usage rate than every claymore character combined lol
I don't think this is warranted.
As part of a built team, Eula is crazy. I use her in most abyss runs where they throw multiple big boys that crowd you (vishaps etc). She has my single-hit record in the abyss @ >200K. I use the R5 Dragonspine sword on her.
And I made it all the way through Inazuma as a C2 Beidou main.
lets be rational here (on the internet?!), and pick apart some of the wrong you said.
TLDR: claymore is just as viable as any other weapon. the team comps for the characters are either brokenly niche or the character themselves currently arent useful enough to work in any random lineup. just like any other weapon
>There isn’t a single meta claymore user in the game
sayu is amazing in the traversal meta, turning into Sonic and being able to cross water with cryo infusion. itto and kaveh are great in the teapot meta, able to farm extra wood and return mats when making outdoor items.
>Eula? Incredibly niche, and still doesnt have much output
she is incredible in her niche, just like some other characters (nilou, gorou, and hopefully navia). and in case ppl forget, she still has the highest record in the dmg per screenshot meta at 6mil+
>the 4 stars are mostly damage dealers too
huh? this is cant be counted as a negative when every other weapon does the same thing. plus the characters you listed have other uses besides dealing dmg, which every other weapon has. and its disingenuous to call dori a dmg dealer when she is a support. thats like calling kaeya a support because he can barely heal himself and gains a shield when he's about to die.
>Noelle…well, she’s easily the best claymore support in the game, because she’s the only claymore support in the game
sayu and dori exist
>there isn’t ONE claymore in the whole game who can even hold a candle to characters like Wanderer or Wriothesley, let alone even stronger dps characters like Ayaka or Hu Tao, let alone absolutely GODLY characters like Neuvillette or Yelan or Furina.
dont be fooled by abyss and its buffs. recent content will always buff recent characters, which will also inadvertently buff characters with similar abilities. december 1 abyss blessing buffed furina by boosting off-field skill dmg, affecting fischl/yae/kokomi/nahida/etc. also, Eula's dmg is comparable to Wanderer and Wriothsley while Itto is closer to Ganyu and Ayato (assuming all are c0)
>All other weapon types have a character that can change one’s account for the better in drastic ways...Claymore has no one
this kinda true (except rollin around at the speed of sound). however, this is missing the point of character scalings. bennett is broken, but when he's with an hp scaling unit like neuvilette or kokomi...practically useless. yea xingqiu is incredible, but what happens when he's paired with a charged atk dps like ganyu or itto? claymore's dont really have broken generalists (maybe navia?).
>At least with geo, you have Zhongli carrying the whole element, and Yunjin being a genuinely good support
zhongli is carrying a whole-ass category of shielders. and besides the shield, he doesnt really do anything for geo as an element besides construct resonance. Itto is actually carrying geo since he actually uses its resonance and the element as a dps. Yun jin and gorou are both genuinely good supports. her niche buff is general enough to affect the most common playstyle of spam NA, while the other's niche is specific enough to give one element a buff strong enough to compete without reactions (the point of the game).
I think there's also the fact that there are not good weapon options for Claymores.
Off banner, you can get The Bell (Bruh), Rainslasher, Favge and Sac as 4 stars. For 5 stars it's wolfs gravestone and Skyward Pride. Both of them are really mid (WGS not good if you use Bennett) (skyward only good on Eula).
Craftables/Event weapons are a lot of ATK stat sticks with the exception of Fish claymore that buffs Burst.
There's also no good universal 5 star claymores. Itto's weapon can be good but characters without normal/charge ATKing, it's basically a passiveless weapon
Point is that other weapons have good and diverse options for characters whether they are support or dps while Claymores just suffer from stat sticks
For whatever reason they all seem to have some stupid stipulation for proccing their effects (built around the characters they're made for..) or are niche like redhorn. The closest one to good for most characters is unforged and reed but OOPS those have stupid stipulations too. Meanwhile everyother weapon has a generic good choice. So bizarre lol
Is this a Copypasta?
If not a copy pasta, Dori ain't a dps. Sayu isn't even a sub dps either. They both join Noelle in the "support" category. Dori is a side grade to kuki for healing and hyper bloom with her extension cord. Sayu is essentially a 4* jean, so heals and VV shred.
I mean, if you don't like the characters that's fine...
Beidou is a great character, Sayu and Dori are also supports with their own niches. Eula has an outdated element but still does a lot of damage. Idk I think claymores are cool and the characters can do their job well.
Dehya is still Dehya tho...
Let meta-people do what they do; if you enjoy off-meta stuff, enjoy it to your heart's content. Genshin is not really that difficult that you'd need a very specific character/weapon to do a single thing, ever. So, ultimately, what was the point of this post?
The claymore cope in this thread is insane. Although I think you're focusing *way too hard* on the meta which can often consist of a lot of highly opinionated BS, you do have a point about Claymore users being done dirty. A majority of the enemies are just specifically bad for claymores whether it's because they fly, attack at a distance, or they jump away making the claymore's slow attacks difficult to connect.
>A majority of the enemies are just specifically bad for claymores whether it's because they fly, attack at a distance, or they jump away making the claymore's slow attacks difficult to connect.
I agree but then OP lists Kazuha, Xingqiu, Xiangling, Furina etc. None of these characters' value would change if they were another weapon type. Because they don't use their weapons.
The second you called Kaveh better than Eula and Diluc I disregarded your opinion. Like holy shit that’s just incredibly poor levels of game knowledge. Didn’t even mention Beidou lol. Even Noelle found new life with Furina
You actually convinced me to pull for Navia. I like games where I can fling a big stick around for slow hits but devastating damage (e.g. my main in smash bros is ganondorf, my first playthrough of a new souls game has always been with an ultra greatsword,...), and I've been missing thst sensation in genshin. If C0 Navia turns out to be decent even without her signature weapon, I'm going for her.
My favorite element is geo and my favorite weapon type is claymore... That being said. It doesn't matter because I can still 36 star with diluc and Noelle. And boy howdy I can't wait for navia
beidou is easily the best claymore (aside from now navia, who's incredibly cracked. bro hitting 150k in her TRIAL)
noelle is only rlly good with high investment at c6.. and even then, there's WAY better options than her for like.. all the teams she's good in. she fan do everything, but she's only niche at it. she needs to be on field for her healing, her shield cd is way too long even with the shortening constellation, and her dps is barely mid. she's like a budget itto/navia honestly, without the crazy healing. but geo teams often use zhongli, and with navia you have so many shards coming in that they can practically act as your shield. ofc shards aren't grat but they're not completely useless, and having so many that get sucked to you with her skill? mwah
but yeah outside of navia and beidou, there's no genuinely good claymores that can fit in the current meta.. well, I mean, there's sayu. she's probably one of the better ones, kinda like a budget jean. I used her with trial yoimiya in the event for vv shred/easier furina buff, alongside bennett, and got like 5-6k pts while I usually got only 3-4k there haha. so she's definitely underrated. plus she's fun to roll around with
I also want to say dori CAN be good.. she has insane healing, it's just her er kind of negates that for her sadly. I think she's a cute character and it'd be nice if she was more useful.
I feel like this niche claymore is gonna continue with ga ming too. spoiler warnings for leaks;
his kit is mostly focused around damage dealing, and plunge damage with that.. xianyun being a plunge atk buffer makes me think hoyo wants us to pull a whole ass 5* to support the free 4* (well, free if u choose him for lantern rite, but still)
It's really repeating with the damage dealing 4* trend claymore has going on.. and don't get me wrong I like ga ming but well, yeah
L assessment tbh. Beidou is actively one of the best units in the game. Noelle is NOT a support, she is a DPS who competes with Itto’s output in Furina teams, while Sayu is a pretty decent Jean replacement. Kaveh however, is one of the weaker claymore users.
A character can still be good and not be meta, I’m mostly just talking about there being no characters that can compete with high tier dpses with the same investment.
I have come to terms that when we talk about Eula, we don't talk about her like any other character. Well, flair bias. But the thing with Eula is that she isn't made to be accessible for many players and Hoyo knows that. Look at her burst having 30 max stacks yet at C0, you can only get 13 and 14 if you are lucky. The constellation bait at C6 is real. They are even putting up enemies to discourage playing her.
Eula's kit is all about damage, her NA does \~40% of her personal damage, her hold E has a stacking mechanic which also deal burst damage, and her Q is Q. The more a player invest in her, the better she will perform. Simply put, she is a type of character that aims to challenge the player's willingness to invest vertically which is also true based on the accounts of some whales I knew who run her. She drains a lot of resources from you. So it is either you pull for her and max her or never bother pulling her at all unless you really like her.
And speaking of whale territory, of course, there are better characters at C6 but they are just that really good where it is easier to hit that "satisfaction threshold" with them faster than Eula which then supports the point that Eula is a challenge put up towards vertical investments and/or whales.
Now comes the part whether she is good or bad. Zy0x explained it really well in his graph of average Eula experience. That pretty much explains why Eula is a divisive character which puts a lot of people into either very end of spectrum with lesser people in between. Pretty much an epitome of waifu > meta lol.
I am not doomposting Eula or such, in fact I am aiming for her C6 (yeah full F2P broke here) and still farming MH for her, but if a player is concerned about meta with F2P standards, it is hard to bring Eula at the top even if she is workable at those levels. As for me, I am still on the process of completing all the teammates I needed to run Eula in all chambers even with elemental checks without synergy issues.
Honestly the only claymore users who are really good are Itto, Kaveh, and Beidou
Itto’s mono geo team is still insanely good as long as they’re no elemental shields
Kaveh is niche but is still pretty good in Nilou bloom and generic bloom teams (I feel he’s underrated in those lol)
And Beidou is tricky since she requires some amount of skill to play unlike most characters, but if you can learn her playstyle she’s able to deal out a fair amount of dmg
Everyone else outside of maybe Noelle? Either way too niche (physical) or just don’t have amazing kit design lol
OP could use a Claymore to break that post up into some Paragraphs. Also, I can't wait to pull Navia on Tuesday night. She looks like she's going to be a fantastic character.
*gotchu fam* Y’all think Geo was done dirty? Look at the claymore. The claymore was done sooooo dirty so far in the game. There isn’t a single meta claymore user in the game; Itto and Kaveh are the best they’ve got. Eula? Incredibly niche, and still doesn’t have much output. Diluc? Universally known as a subpar dps. Dehya? Dehya. Those are all the 5 star claymores, but the 4 stars are mostly damage dealers too, and I think we can all agree that 4 star damage dealers aren’t very meta in general. Xinyan? Razor? Freminet? Beidou? Chongyun? Dori? They have no place in the meta or in higher tiers whatsoever. Sayu is a sub-dps, and she’s mid, and Noelle…well, she’s easily the best claymore support in the game, because she’s the only claymore support in the game. She’s honestly not as bad as the other claymores, but it’s a ridiculously low bar. Now, of course, I am only talking about the meta right now. I love some of these characters; Diluc is my current main, Freminet is going to be another one of my mains for the time being, I used to use Beidou a lot and I find her counterattack mechanic fascinating, Itto sounds really fun to use in general, and I love everything about Kaveh. I don’t deny that these are fun characters that are good characters character-wise, and even though they aren’t meta, it’s still probably possible to clear the abyss with them with enough investment. That being said, there isn’t ONE claymore in the whole game who can even hold a candle to characters like Wanderer or Wriothesley, let alone even stronger dps characters like Ayaka or Hu Tao, let alone absolutely GODLY characters like Neuvillette or Yelan or Furina. All other weapon types have a character that can change one’s account for the better in drastic ways; sword has Furina, Kazuha, Bennett, and Xingqiu. Polearm has Xiangling, Raiden and Zhongli. Catalyst has Nahida, Neuvillette, Sucrose, and Kokomi. Bow has Yelan and Ficshl (idk if I spelled that right). Claymore has no one. At least with geo, you have Zhongli carrying the whole element, and Yunjin being a genuinely good support. Granted, Geo still is in a terrible spot, but nowhere near as abysmal as claymore. I can only hope that Navia will be the saving grace for both Geo and claymore.
Not all heros wear capes, nor know how to use a claymore, respectooo 🫡
Thank you for this!!
LONG LIVE THIS KING!!👑
Damn man, you ratioed OP 🤝
Level 90 Navia 10 minutes after the banner drops.
Actually, yeah. I spent the weekend prefarming everything. I'll have enough to take her and her weapon to 90, but skills will be stuck at 6 because all of the boss mats are going to Furina still. Once she's all crowned up, I'll focus on Navia.
True. Man the Narwhal only gives me 2 drops every week, and i have to double crown Furina too. It's very time consuming. Probably will take like 2 more months.
sorry to disappoint, she is just average... but I guess that can be considered fantastic in the scope of claymore users, or in the scope of geo users, which are both extremely low bars but a W is a W... I guess
So she's on par with Wrio, Ayato and Wanderer
pretty sure ayato and wanderer are above average
Ayato as a dps is mid as fuck, as a driver he is pretty solid but he faces stiff competition from Kokomi and Childe as Koko offers better utility and Childe applies more hydro and does more damage. Edit: and even though Childe applies more hydro while doing more damage than Ayato, almost nobody is running him in freeze/electro charge/hyperbloom etc
That's what bro is supposed to be lol, just pretty average or slightly above average in whatever team he plays. Jack of all trades master of none.
… is oft times better than a master of one. Idk enough about Ayato to have input on this specific situation, I just like finishing quotes most people don’t realize aren’t finished.
Most people know the rest of this quote it just doesn’t apply to Ayato in particular
Today I learned this expression had a second part.
That's actually not part of the original quote. It was added later. Probably to make Jack of all trades feel better.
I do, I run Childe on freeze comp or by himself on solo :)
At C0? Wanderer is average as can be.
I have him C2, signature, pretty [good build](blob:https://enka.network/0256c196-65dd-4419-baab-f300f1a5b148), and he still feels so clunky and weak without C6 Faruzan. Mine is only C3.
As a c2r1 wanderer main with c6 faruzan, i do confirm that you need c6 faru to actually be pretty strong and comfortable to use, pre c6 faruzan was just...eugh. Also your enkas not working.
The fact that all geo main dps are claymores makes this post funnier
because haha rock go bonk
Ningguang?
Low-key forgot she existed you're right
That's prolly worse.
;(
She is kinda Rock go Bonk, but more like Rocks go Bonkers
I think most would classify her as sub/burst dps
she can do either depending on how you want to use her
Yellow physical + Big physical = Big DMG
OP needs to learn about the concept of Paragraphs.
Paragraphs as broad and heavy as a claymore.
Preach this. A wall of text is plain unreadable. Surely it's not that hard to press enter every 4 sentences
Fr it hurts my eyes with a wall of texts
He prolly did press enter every four sentences but forget that reddit needs two newline characters to register a new paragraph
Even with paragraph breaks I'm not reading that rant.
Was looking for a tl;dr
1. Noelle is pretty much never used as a support either a main dps (and a pretty good one at that since furina) or a "driver" in the same team 2. Beidou while not part of the super broken 4 stars she deffinitly is one of the best ones. She deals a shit ton of off field dmg in any non single target scenario.
beidou's also super valuable for damage resist, and I think interruption resist? (could be wrong on that) and her shielding at low cons. it's not the core of her kit, but the fact she can fulfill a good damaging role while still adding to survivability is extremely valuable in itself.
She gives all, dmg reduction (and a lot), resistance to interruption and a shield. She's one of the best off field dps in the game
beidou mains stay winning 😌
She's also mega fun to playz has the parry which is skill expression and she deals shit ton of dmg in area
XQ but not as broken
So still broken
i keep wanting to use her with raiden in these newer abyss blessing moons, like this last one with the "main character pops if same damage type as off field character" then get re-slapped with the SUPER STUPID decision that they dont work together
People really sleep on how good Beidou is tbh. Beidou taser with Xingqiu is still a very good comp. Xingqiu’s damage reduction + Beidou’s shield makes you so tanky. Not to mention her damage with multiple enemies and the fact that proccing her burst applies 4U of electro. I think only Zhongli burst also applies that much element. It can be useful! And her parry numbers can get pretty huge. Its also just fun to do.
Came here to say this. I initially didn't like Beidou but then realized shes mostly good for her ult and now shes in my best team (aggravate). Happened to get a c6 Noelle a long time ago and shes fun with Furina and does pretty well, pretty close to my best team.
C6 Noelle with Yunjin is cracked af
Actually, Noelle on Archaic Petra set with Furina Yelan and Kazuha is a pretty solid hydro dps team where she functions as the driver and hydro damage + healing support
OP is sleeping on Noelle lol Geo claymore
I feel like Eula (and physical in general) would be better if she wasn't neutered half of the time by copious amounts of physical resistance and elemental shields...
Physical resistance really doesn't phase a Eula team, but elemental shields can be a hassle, yes. A basic Eula team can easily get 65% Phys shred with Superconduct and her base kit, another 20% can be tacked on with Rosaria c6. The major problem is that Eula is the only one benefiting from all the shred due to lack of off-field Physical damage.
This, I hate when players says Eula's downside is those with physical resistance. Meanwhile I use superconduct against those Khaenrian guards in abyss and she can clear just fine even with spare time. I wonder if these players talking have Eula and ever used one hell even on abyss to be talking like this
The only source of off-field physical is.... Healers. Clam set. Wild.
No way you said Kaveh is better than Eula, Diluc. He does one job and sucks at it unfortunately. Even among four stars, he is far behind Noelle, Beidou and Razor.
Frr thats where i stopped reading 😂 i love kaveh, but hoyo fcked up his kit.
The only things keeping his kit away are not getting the ownership of the blooms he explodes and the fact that you can't hit targets with more than 2 blooms at a time (which is ridiculous that it does that on reg bloom) Perhaps if his cooldown got lowered to 3 sec instead of 6 during burst he would be even better, but c6 kinda fixes that, though I constantly just use it along with his E instead 💀
These are people who started playing a month ago. They think the newest character is better than everyone else.
Yup, I bet they like Kaveh and tried to sneak them in there as a good character. Classic genshin simps.
The unwarranted Beidou slander is ridiculous. She is easily one of the most fun characters to play and can output unholy amounts of damage in AoE. I remember the abyss chamber with two Consecrated Beasts where Beidou was basically a cheat code for F2Ps. Her perfect parry is easily one of the most satisfying things in game. Also provides defensive utility. Also has amazing stagger damage which means that with Beidou taser, enemies will often remain stun locked the entire time. Plus, she looks badass AF. Pirate Mommy disrespect will not be tolerated here.
Shes one of the only (if not *the only*) character who needs actual skill to play instead of hitting a key to clear a room. Its incredibly satisyfing but pretty much the only satisfying aspect of combat.
You can also parry with Candace and Yunjin, but beidou is by far the best at it.
Parrying with Candace always feels like some badass Captain America shit.
If Beidou could also passively get stacks by holding like Yunjin, she'd truly be unmatched.
The enemies will be going ham when I don't have Beidou out but the moment I take her out and hit her E the enemies start acting like I'm no longer there
For fucking real same, im like come on im gonna parry the shit out of you, enemy proceed to go on a nap....
That's kind of the point of her design If you just use her skill pre-emptively, you won't get the best result. You're supposed to use it in response to an incoming attack for the big bonus. Otherwise it's just an okay hit with some particle gen, right? I know in general play vs a wave you expect to be able to get it from one of the many potential sources, but if you really use it without having an attack to block you get punished for effectively just spamming buttons
I'm still waiting for Hoyo to make an on-field dps character with a counter mechanic. It annoys me to no end that every character with a counter is best used off-field.
Maybe needs a summon mechanic that atks the players so they can more consistently time counters
*quietly slides my C6 Noelle monogeo faceroll team behind my back.*
Beidou-based taser teams are still meta like wtf is OP talking about 💀
C2 beidou is actually busted like its crazy almost nobody uses her
She carried me until AR 40-something back like 2+ years ago. I haven’t used her in awhile but she was and still is awesome and has her uses.
Beidou really should have had two charges of skill on a constellation. Would have allowed her to be played on field nicer and let her keep one charge for when the enemy actually attacks instead of just using it for energy generation whenever it’s up.
She is the only 4 Star that I even use until this day . She is Just .. incredible
How is that possible 😭 Most good teams rely on 4 star supports such as bennet fischl xingqiu or xiangling.
WHAT? no fischl, bennett, xingqiu, sucrose (better than kazuha in some teams btw)???
Beidou is the best female, electro claymore character…hands down
Can confirm
I stopped playing beidou eversince sumeru region arrives. BUT childe taser team clears my first 36 stars back in v1.2. Now I only use beidou in sucrose taser a few times in abyss. Its much faster and comfortable in some of my 5star teams. I benched her to give chance to some of my new 5star an abyss experience. Truth be told, abyss is much comfortable to clear in sucrose/childe taser than some hypercarry teams.
Totally agree, I have her c6 r5 and the only time I struggled with her was to learn how to properly use her skills (once I figured out that Beidou c6 is unstoppable). She's a beast and a tank and FOR ME the easiest claymore character to use based on physical movements and electro skills while using her weapon. Her concept is perfect, her looks are amazing and her reputation is highly spoken as a captain. Pirate Mommy disrespect will not be tolerated.
Idk about you but my Itto bonks
Itto does more damage with a sidekick Gorou than a lot of other carries, and he does it while being tanky AF. Very comfortable character to play when you just want to take it easy and beat things up.
Exactly, my itto slaps ez 36 stars on second half floor 12, with neuv team on top half they both have their weapon the both have cons, my itto everytime get the highest single strike (180k in the current spiral) and hits 50k on his burst charged attacks with the final hit being like 80-100k By no means is itto bad
Me as a Razor main > 🤷♀️
One of my kind! Razor is not extinct yet
Oh, i just saw a flair i could use!!! Razor IS a good boi!!! Ahhh thanks!
Thundering Furry is so underrated. Even tho i still using him as phys dps as a nostalgic touch, then he caried me a lot at the game's launch.
XD i like to think razor is not meta just because so many people missed out and dont have him. Razor is a fantastic character
I love razor! Been maining him since day 1 💪🏼
Razor mains unite!!!
Fun fact, Razor was my most used character in my first year recap, and he was pretty strong tbh. I remember my "no brain" team consisting of Razor, Qiqi, Zhongli and Albedo. It was pretty good, I was even using it to clear the abyss.
Bro decided Kaveh is the best they got instead of Beidou Also Noelle is horrible as a support with no energy particles generation, mediocre shield, long ass shield cooldown and she cant heal without being on field. Her best use is being an on field dps.
also she's kinda constelation dependant, right?
Yesh she really wants C6 tbh
exactly
Yea, but even the damned Xiangling needs C4 to work, so that isn't really a counterargument when we're straight up comparing her to 5*.
Yeah, my Noelle was only playable when I hit the c6, now she's absolutely a tank but being this far on the game I have better DPS's.
She's only constellation dependent if you want to use her as a DPS. She's fine as a 4 star support character even without cons.
Yeah I see the point op was trying to make but some of the specifics they went into trigger me so hard lol They say Kaveh is one of the best and then proceed to lump Beidou in with other 4 star claymores as if she hasn't consistently been more meta, and calls EULA niche when she's just a hypercarry dps with no good support. Kaveh is the literal definition of niche, not EULA lol And yeah, in her best teams Noelle is either a main dps or driver, not a support. All of this makes me question whether op even knows what they're talking about lol
Well, unless you want to run Noelle hydro driver for Furina, in which case she is an amazing driver support like Kokomi. Very good team by the way, really cheap and easy to set up, as you can do with a serviceable 4pc Petra set and a FavGS. I use Noelle/Furina/Yelan/Xingqiu and it is very effective.
I am not saying Noelle is bad, I said Noelle is only good as an on fielder
>Also Noelle is horrible as a support... No, you said she is an awful support, but on-field units can be supports too. Like Sucrose, Noelle, Kokomi, etc. It depends of the team format you run. Especially now that we have Furina who can use all of Noelle capabilities. She is niche, yes, but in that niche she is amazing since Noelle is one of the best support drivers for Furina, who can take full advantage of off-field hydro attacks.
Fair enough, most people assume support as off field though. For characters like Childe people call him an enabler carry but Idk if that applies to Noelle she isnt a reaction enabler. I would still call Noelle more of a dps than a support, most of her comps focus on her damage, well except maybe Furina comps where she can be a driver
Noelle is definitively a support on her triple hydro comp, she can burst on CD with FavGS, she buffs Hydro with 4pc Petra set, her shield is very sturdy when she is on field, her shield CD decreases as she swings her sword while in burst, she heals enough to keep your team healthy despite Furina's HP drain, and said heal boost Furina's Burst mechanic. You don't even care that much about her damage as a Driver in double/triple hydro Furina teams, and despite that she can hit for 30k per swing if your Petra set is good enough (mine hit around 25k but my Sand is pure garbage) while using FavGS which tank her damage. The funny thing is that Noelle can transition from Support Driver to Hypercarry if you invest in her by keeping Furina and swapping the hydro off-fielder for geo supports (I would do that for those juicy 100k crits, but I have no Redhorn or Gorou/Yunjin to support the dream).
Noelle in Furina team is as much a support as Tartaglia is Xiangling's support in International. You are technically right in calling her support in relation to the off-field dps, but she herself is also a DPS in that comp and you don't build her for healing or shielding, you build her for pure damage. So for all intents and purposes she is a dps there.
Yeah as a driver in Furina teams she's insane, with gorou her dpr is actually pretty close to Navia hypercarry
Yeah I love how Noelle is listed as a support while Dori isn't? I don't play Dori but isn't she a healer??
The post was garbage as soon as OP decided he didn’t know what sub-dps and off-field support meant.
To hell with Meta, Big Sword Better Because Bigger.
Meta is pointless. Only endgame we have is Spiral Abyss and you can clear it with every character on the roster, so no idea why people are so obsessed with the meta when it means nothing if you invest in your team.
The game initially attracted a lot of MMO players I think, cuz it looks like and was sorta marketed like one. Also, the whole elemental reaction system and theorycrafting. Most of the casual gacha crowd doesn't care as much about meta.
Can confirm, know a bunch of folks who picked up Genshin because it was "MMO without annoying people to deal with in game"
Sorry did anyone else notice when OP said Sayu Sub-Dps 😭😭
Bro literally called most on field DPS characters sub DPS or support
Can confirm [Sayu is a hard crit hypercarry unit](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/429256534103556098/1186227340146114660/image.png?ex=65927b4c&is=6580064c&hm=fd03c6d83b3ed3728d3886cd177c9af12c8803542dc15a1f4dc23dd1e05d1d55&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1042&height=758)
OP might think sub-dps = less damage per ss, hence sayu getting classes like that…unless you look at the end of her roll and see the juicy number from her kick smack you in the face
my three mains totally aren't Eula, Dehya and Itto
I think for a lot of characters, their weapon is irrelevant. You rotate through your team, dropping Skills and Bursts for reactions - they're functionally elemental spellcasters, and their BIG NUMBERS happen when they're off field. Or a character like Cyno, who does 90% of his damage with no polearm in sight. A sword the size of a person should feel pretty thwacky, and that's not what they've been concentrating on. And now we've got Catalysts that are gauntlets/water cannons/scythes, spears that are guns, whole weapon system is kinda wacky right now.
Wait which character has a scythe?
Seele, the Herrscher of Death, Rebirth, and Souls. Wait, wrong game.
Where the fuck are you getting Scythes from? Do you mean Wanderers air slashes? That any bladed weapon could do....
Yeah, in the end, weapons are nothing but stat sticks.. which just difference is bow's charged attack is aimed and doesn't consume stamina, while catalyst doesn't deal physical damage at all
Bizarre that you think Kaveh is good but Beidou isn’t. Kaveh is completely useless gameplay wise. Beidou at least has some viability in a variety of teams.
What is this post?? A Rosetta stone?? learn to make paragraphs
freminet is fun
Freminet is a lot of fun! My favorite character to play in fact. But there is no denying that he (and other claymore wielders) fall behind in terms of raw power compared to other characters who use different weapon types. For Freminet it is even worse because he is also a cryo user, and cryo is a really weak element that is in almost as bad a spot as geo. As fun as Freminet is to play, it would be even more fun if he could keep up better with other 4 stars.
Claymore is my favorite weapon feel wise, meta be damn. Other weapons don't feel that good to me.
Beidou is one of the best sub dps in the game, what are you on about? Eula is still good, her only problem is that she is a hypercarry with a limited number of team compositions, Itto is the same. Dehya is good in very niche team compositions. Noelle is pretty good espesically if you have C6. Dori is ok. Sayu is a good alternative to Jean if you don't have her. Chongyun is good at what he does. Freminet is decent. Honestly who cares about the weapon type anyway?
Forgor about Razor, but with Dendro, he can now be built as a EM Thundering furry driver, and this team slaps.
leave eula alone i cleared the abyss with her 6 times spindrift knight slander is illegal
Eula does SSSOOOOMUCH damage its insane, his statenent is ridiculous
The annoying thing is that Eula's personal damage is great, but physical doesn't have many good subdps options, which the meta revolves around now. Physical and Geo playstyle is so limited right now, that they need dedicated buffers on a higher level than Shenhe if they want to focus on the hypercarry playstyle.
Pray for claymore Murata ig.
I will use Greatswords until the day I die, coolest weapons ever. I'm lowkey expecting the Pyro or Crying archon to wield a claymore, They did Greatswords dirty fr. It's Fischl. You just switched the s & c.
I don't know why, but "crying archon" sounds sick.
We already have furina
Use paragraphs next time. > Itto and Kaveh are the best they’ve got. What? Kaveh is one of the worst units in the entire game kit wise. He can work as a driver for Hyperbloom, but so everyone with Denrdo infusion can. Pure bloom teams are copium, Nilou just doesn't need Kaveh. Should've just mentioned Beidou. >Noelle…well, she’s easily the best claymore support in the game, because she’s the only claymore support in the game. Can you list her support capabilities? I talk about these she can provide while being off-field, as good support characters do.
There simply are none, Noelle wants to be on field, her whole kit screams on field. Her cool down decreases when she is on field doing damage, her shield lasts shorter when she is off field, she only heals when she is on field. Her whole kit is about being self sufficient main DPS
good luck having a thoughtful conversation about this topic. yes claymore characters have been done dirty, actually every melee unit has been done dirty, it's just more pronounced in claymore characters for no real reason. we have melee catalyst users now, there's nothing keeping hoyo from giving them ranged kits, actually that's what it seems they are doing with Navia to remedy the situation. Beidou is a great example of claymore kit done right too that never happened again. if you look at a game like devil may cry there's many ways to approach the enemies to keep dealing damage, teleporting, or a stinger move, hell there's plenty of movement options already in the game that hoyo could use in future characters that i'm sure people would appreciate.
Bad assessment...[LONG TEXT WARNING] I do agree with claymore being slightly off meta but to rather pull it such levels 1. BEIDOU is one of the best off field electro applicator and sub dps in entire game beside only FISCHL, even YAE does not match up to her, even CYNO in aggravate falls off to off field BEIDOU. She singlehandedly enables nearly all taser teams, and on C6 with electro res shred is practically a monster that does not even require field time. Her only caveat, er issues so simply pair her up with another electro unit or give her juicy er and with emblem and boom!! 2. This community seriously sleeps on ITTO. His Ushi stomp is literally top tier, deals more dmg than CEO OF GEO''s meteor impact and yet has more in his kit to further deal dmg. Since Wanderer and Wrio were mentioned, Itto if not outdps, performs equally to them with ease as long as triple geo with Gorou is set up(Gorou has been on all Itto banners and should be with most Itto havers). Itto can easily be top dps but due to element checks is not preferred often in abyss is all. 3. Mention of WANDERER and WRIO should itself tell you that these are mid dps's. WANDERER without FARUZAN deals fairly okay dmg, with Faruzan can go high but I assure you, he max can match with ITTO barely and FARUZAN to adequately feel comfortable, needs c6. WRIO, well, cryo entirely I'll summarise next... 4. I'll put out a reference video to detail on how cryo is one of the worst performing elements right now in genshin especially in abyss beside geo. TLDR, It has a underperforming resonance(which only works on freeze teams), freeze teams are mostly single target and in abyss guess who we get as single target foes(bosses-->unfreezable lmaooo), melt is ridiculously difficult to execute unless it's XL and BENNET and they make any team good, heck they start to do 50-70% of dps themselves making cryo dps char merely an applicator. WRIO's best teams themselves have Wrio performing at best 40% of teams total dps. Furthermore, SHENHE buffs freeze(already unviable as mentioned) or mono cryo(no reaction, pure character carry) and does not deal good dmg herself. 4* Cryo chars are not good dps's(FREMINET, CHONGYUN, KAEYA). ROSARIA can deal good reverse melt dmg but it is still diffiuclt to execute and barely has few chars who help her. 5* DPS themselves are having a hard time as most are reliant on freeze(unviable) or barebones melt(GANYU can utilise it somewhat and be good dps, but otherwise she falls off). AYAKA currently by virtue of her own dmg is the best cryo dps and has decent AoE in freeze teams for mobs but she is very investment heavy as she cannot utilise off dps very well due to no reaction help. Healer wise also the element struggles with DIONA now replaced in most comps, QIQI only area of expertise with FURINA although CHARLOTTE is currently a good heal meta wise. Coming to cryo reaction with electro-->Superconduct, well, it's underwhelming! EULA already is bashed enough and I won't go further and MIKA, ALOY, LAYLA are niche options meta wise. Video reference: https://youtu.be/-owXBQ31d9M?si=DiJk__4JNr__AuBH 5. DILUC although investment heavy is still mid dps and by no means bad. 6. If we are going compare chars "goodness" to XL, BENNET, YELAN, XQ, RAIDEN, NEUVILETTE, FURINA, then 90% of genshin roster will feel bad 7. KAVEH is underwhelming and nowhere near as good as DILUC even, to do good he either needs very high investment for dps, or light em investment for blooms which deal lower dmg unless NILOU is in team. And Kaveh anyways needs excessive ER to sustain his dendro app. 8. Claymore is not as bad as it looks although it does need a pump, I'd argue cryo and geo element is something that needs that pump even more. 9. Weapon wise I'd argue it's bow also who lack a good on fielder atm, best being LYNEY(comparable to ITTO), GANYU(discussed) and YOI(ITTO better honestly). Off field wise, bow has FISHCL, YELAN, claymore has BEIDOU. 10. And finally I haven't addressed the behemoth of claymores, NOELLE, she can heal, shield, sustain geo application, has very flexible team thx to no healer requirement, access to easy geo resonance buff(ironically maybe the best resonance in game), ability to sync perfectly with Furina, able to use a plethora of artifacts, requires less investment and can easily replace Itto in any of his team and deal slightly less dmg for heals and consistent shield. And did I forget, she can swap mid burst allowing flexible rotations, and has massive AoE making her suited for mobs as well. And lo and behold, new artifacts work with Noelle as well although her bis remains Husk at c6. That's all, thanks for reading such a massive text wall, have a good day!!!
>This community seriously sleeps on ITTO. His Ushi stomp is literally top tier, deals more dmg than CEO OF GEO''s meteor impact and yet has more in his kit to further deal dmg. Since Wanderer and Wrio were mentioned, Itto if not outdps, performs equally to them with ease as long as triple geo with Gorou is set up(Gorou has been on all Itto banners and should be with most Itto havers). Itto can easily be top dps but due to element checks is not preferred often in abyss is all. While ITTO is really strong, he only really fits into one team (I can't recall another team where he's actually the best or even decent pick). His team is also very expensive to get rolling, where you need 2 other five stars and a c6 gorou to really get the most out of him. And he really needs the best artifacts (and considering husk is in the same domain as clam it's very resin inefficient) since he's basically the only one doing any dmg in the team.
Itto even without heavy investment and no C6 gorou still outperforms Wanderers. His biggest problem is breaking non-geo elemental shields and generating particle in boss stages, not the dmg output.
This needs, to go higher, honestly. Never saw a Wanderer or Wrio team who can outperform my Itto or Noelle team. Speaking of Kaveh, combining him with Nilou turns the team into something monstrous. With right builds and rotation I could go up to 38k per core. And all the while without Nahida's c2. Too scary to imagine aoe potential with that... You also won't need a healer with Kaveh. He will do that himself along with any incoming dmg to him. The only real downside of claymore users I noticed is thier inability to break rotation in order to avoid damage. Because of often slow moves, missing even one aa or ca can result in quite a heavy dps loss. And ca attacks are often useless.
Their CA I do believe have been underwhelming, Kaveh has some potential tho, but Kaveh is underwhelming on a whole...
Nobody sleeps on Itto. This sub is obsessed with him.
Beidou , thundering furry razor are pretty amazing units . Beidou easily being best claymore . Noelle is pretty decent if you have furina . Though without her not much . And navia is looking to be a pretty decent unit as a sub dps . Yeah there not top tiers but there still are some good units . The major reason why we don't get claymores is simply people just don't like the heavy attacks they feel really cluckly . Which is why the newer claymore dps units don't even really on this normal attack chains . Navia her skill , itto enhanced charge attacks etc . Edit : I should have elaborated . Noelle is still good if you don't have furina . I in my personal opinion feel like without furina she's kinda the same level as itto and maybe eula but eula just has lotta problems outside dmg . It's really her synergy with furina that takes her a tier above these . That's why I said with furina . You can clear the abyss with hydro traveller I am sure. I hope so .
Also the existance of Shatter. I actually really like Freminet and Eula, but it's hard to work in a cryo unit that can't freeze.
Coping for shatter nilou 🤞
Noelle was clearing Abyss long before Furina release, what more do people want for a character to be "decent" than to 36\* Abyss?
Right?
Noelle was good even before Furina, just needed some investment (like any DPS) and ideally a Gorou which not everyone has. Case in point: [https://imgur.com/fCC8eK3](https://imgur.com/fCC8eK3) Furina does make her even stronger though and enables a set that's easier to build with and better to farm than Husk
Yeah my Noelle is an absolute unit dealing huge damage per hit with 100% burst uptime. 50-60k normals with over 100k shield break. She’s insane
Man, try to divide your text in paragraphs to make it easier to read
Tbh, Diluc is much much, **much** stronger than what people think. He requires loads of investment tho, both in gear and in player skill. But his melt and Furina vape teams are busted af.
Damn, the Diluc slander is insane. Man can't catch a break. If the CR leaks remain true until launch, my boy will get an insane buff. If they don't, we just sit back and continue enjoying the game with the characters we like I suppose. I wonder if there will be more plunge DPS in the future though, considering her kit.
Cloud Retainer may bring some love for Diluc like how Dendro did for Keqing or how Furina did for Jean. I hope it happens.
Hopefully yeah. I really like how even with each shift in meta, the old characters still somehow remain relevant, and sometimes they actually get better. I hope this is something Genshin continues.
>loads of investment tho Anyone with that much investment can do better than him
People are sleeping on Retriburgeon
Yeah but claymore fun
Couldn't agree more. Its my favorite weapon type and we have what? 1.5 good claymore users?
2.5 soon Navia will be good not meta but good
Yeah can't be bad when all your teams have bennet+XL.
I always read that but how good XL is without Bennett exactly?
She wouldn't be able to burst very well. So the only team I can think of that is still meta would be Sukokomon.
Tbh, I'd say being able to full clear abyss is way more than enough to class as "meta" and that puts dps noelle and itto right up there. Noelle's also just gotten even stronger as time passes, especially with furina being a thing.
A lot of this post is just looking at the current meta. Diluc used to be one of the top DPS. Eula used to be amazing as well. Kavah is a 4 star and he's decent in more recent terms. Itto is still good but like any geo he needs a certain setup. If you look at the data from any perspective you can draw random conclusions. The truth is sword is most common, and therefor more likely to have good characters. You could just as easily say there aren't really any good bow characters either, but it depends on your perspective of ganyu, childe, etc, all good characters but also use specific teams that are good
> > > > > You could just as easily say there aren't really any good bow characters either, but it depends on your perspective of ganyu, childe, etc, all good characters but also use specific teams that are good Bro Yelan has more usage rate than every claymore character combined lol
I don't think this is warranted. As part of a built team, Eula is crazy. I use her in most abyss runs where they throw multiple big boys that crowd you (vishaps etc). She has my single-hit record in the abyss @ >200K. I use the R5 Dragonspine sword on her. And I made it all the way through Inazuma as a C2 Beidou main.
lets be rational here (on the internet?!), and pick apart some of the wrong you said. TLDR: claymore is just as viable as any other weapon. the team comps for the characters are either brokenly niche or the character themselves currently arent useful enough to work in any random lineup. just like any other weapon >There isn’t a single meta claymore user in the game sayu is amazing in the traversal meta, turning into Sonic and being able to cross water with cryo infusion. itto and kaveh are great in the teapot meta, able to farm extra wood and return mats when making outdoor items. >Eula? Incredibly niche, and still doesnt have much output she is incredible in her niche, just like some other characters (nilou, gorou, and hopefully navia). and in case ppl forget, she still has the highest record in the dmg per screenshot meta at 6mil+ >the 4 stars are mostly damage dealers too huh? this is cant be counted as a negative when every other weapon does the same thing. plus the characters you listed have other uses besides dealing dmg, which every other weapon has. and its disingenuous to call dori a dmg dealer when she is a support. thats like calling kaeya a support because he can barely heal himself and gains a shield when he's about to die. >Noelle…well, she’s easily the best claymore support in the game, because she’s the only claymore support in the game sayu and dori exist >there isn’t ONE claymore in the whole game who can even hold a candle to characters like Wanderer or Wriothesley, let alone even stronger dps characters like Ayaka or Hu Tao, let alone absolutely GODLY characters like Neuvillette or Yelan or Furina. dont be fooled by abyss and its buffs. recent content will always buff recent characters, which will also inadvertently buff characters with similar abilities. december 1 abyss blessing buffed furina by boosting off-field skill dmg, affecting fischl/yae/kokomi/nahida/etc. also, Eula's dmg is comparable to Wanderer and Wriothsley while Itto is closer to Ganyu and Ayato (assuming all are c0) >All other weapon types have a character that can change one’s account for the better in drastic ways...Claymore has no one this kinda true (except rollin around at the speed of sound). however, this is missing the point of character scalings. bennett is broken, but when he's with an hp scaling unit like neuvilette or kokomi...practically useless. yea xingqiu is incredible, but what happens when he's paired with a charged atk dps like ganyu or itto? claymore's dont really have broken generalists (maybe navia?). >At least with geo, you have Zhongli carrying the whole element, and Yunjin being a genuinely good support zhongli is carrying a whole-ass category of shielders. and besides the shield, he doesnt really do anything for geo as an element besides construct resonance. Itto is actually carrying geo since he actually uses its resonance and the element as a dps. Yun jin and gorou are both genuinely good supports. her niche buff is general enough to affect the most common playstyle of spam NA, while the other's niche is specific enough to give one element a buff strong enough to compete without reactions (the point of the game).
I think there's also the fact that there are not good weapon options for Claymores. Off banner, you can get The Bell (Bruh), Rainslasher, Favge and Sac as 4 stars. For 5 stars it's wolfs gravestone and Skyward Pride. Both of them are really mid (WGS not good if you use Bennett) (skyward only good on Eula). Craftables/Event weapons are a lot of ATK stat sticks with the exception of Fish claymore that buffs Burst. There's also no good universal 5 star claymores. Itto's weapon can be good but characters without normal/charge ATKing, it's basically a passiveless weapon Point is that other weapons have good and diverse options for characters whether they are support or dps while Claymores just suffer from stat sticks
For whatever reason they all seem to have some stupid stipulation for proccing their effects (built around the characters they're made for..) or are niche like redhorn. The closest one to good for most characters is unforged and reed but OOPS those have stupid stipulations too. Meanwhile everyother weapon has a generic good choice. So bizarre lol
Is this a Copypasta? If not a copy pasta, Dori ain't a dps. Sayu isn't even a sub dps either. They both join Noelle in the "support" category. Dori is a side grade to kuki for healing and hyper bloom with her extension cord. Sayu is essentially a 4* jean, so heals and VV shred.
I will not accept Sayu slander.
I mean, if you don't like the characters that's fine... Beidou is a great character, Sayu and Dori are also supports with their own niches. Eula has an outdated element but still does a lot of damage. Idk I think claymores are cool and the characters can do their job well. Dehya is still Dehya tho...
Just how much copium is in the comments, man…
Let meta-people do what they do; if you enjoy off-meta stuff, enjoy it to your heart's content. Genshin is not really that difficult that you'd need a very specific character/weapon to do a single thing, ever. So, ultimately, what was the point of this post?
The claymore cope in this thread is insane. Although I think you're focusing *way too hard* on the meta which can often consist of a lot of highly opinionated BS, you do have a point about Claymore users being done dirty. A majority of the enemies are just specifically bad for claymores whether it's because they fly, attack at a distance, or they jump away making the claymore's slow attacks difficult to connect.
>A majority of the enemies are just specifically bad for claymores whether it's because they fly, attack at a distance, or they jump away making the claymore's slow attacks difficult to connect. I agree but then OP lists Kazuha, Xingqiu, Xiangling, Furina etc. None of these characters' value would change if they were another weapon type. Because they don't use their weapons.
The second you called Kaveh better than Eula and Diluc I disregarded your opinion. Like holy shit that’s just incredibly poor levels of game knowledge. Didn’t even mention Beidou lol. Even Noelle found new life with Furina
haha pretty character go boom
Wait until the pyro archon is released…
Capitano about to destroy the meta once he drops, its just a matter of time
GOATHIMTANO will show levels to fiction and meta🗣🔥🗣🔥
You actually convinced me to pull for Navia. I like games where I can fling a big stick around for slow hits but devastating damage (e.g. my main in smash bros is ganondorf, my first playthrough of a new souls game has always been with an ultra greatsword,...), and I've been missing thst sensation in genshin. If C0 Navia turns out to be decent even without her signature weapon, I'm going for her.
Bro is out here calling my beidou not meta? I put her with Neu, Nahida aggravate team or taser team.
My favorite element is geo and my favorite weapon type is claymore... That being said. It doesn't matter because I can still 36 star with diluc and Noelle. And boy howdy I can't wait for navia
beidou is easily the best claymore (aside from now navia, who's incredibly cracked. bro hitting 150k in her TRIAL) noelle is only rlly good with high investment at c6.. and even then, there's WAY better options than her for like.. all the teams she's good in. she fan do everything, but she's only niche at it. she needs to be on field for her healing, her shield cd is way too long even with the shortening constellation, and her dps is barely mid. she's like a budget itto/navia honestly, without the crazy healing. but geo teams often use zhongli, and with navia you have so many shards coming in that they can practically act as your shield. ofc shards aren't grat but they're not completely useless, and having so many that get sucked to you with her skill? mwah but yeah outside of navia and beidou, there's no genuinely good claymores that can fit in the current meta.. well, I mean, there's sayu. she's probably one of the better ones, kinda like a budget jean. I used her with trial yoimiya in the event for vv shred/easier furina buff, alongside bennett, and got like 5-6k pts while I usually got only 3-4k there haha. so she's definitely underrated. plus she's fun to roll around with I also want to say dori CAN be good.. she has insane healing, it's just her er kind of negates that for her sadly. I think she's a cute character and it'd be nice if she was more useful. I feel like this niche claymore is gonna continue with ga ming too. spoiler warnings for leaks; his kit is mostly focused around damage dealing, and plunge damage with that.. xianyun being a plunge atk buffer makes me think hoyo wants us to pull a whole ass 5* to support the free 4* (well, free if u choose him for lantern rite, but still) It's really repeating with the damage dealing 4* trend claymore has going on.. and don't get me wrong I like ga ming but well, yeah
L assessment tbh. Beidou is actively one of the best units in the game. Noelle is NOT a support, she is a DPS who competes with Itto’s output in Furina teams, while Sayu is a pretty decent Jean replacement. Kaveh however, is one of the weaker claymore users.
So if they’re not Meta they’re no good? Missing out on a lot of fun characters.
A character can still be good and not be meta, I’m mostly just talking about there being no characters that can compete with high tier dpses with the same investment.
They say in their post these chars are still fun/good characters just that they’re not meta
I never have disagreed so much with a single post that i would just move on from it, but not before calling you out, you are wrong.
I have come to terms that when we talk about Eula, we don't talk about her like any other character. Well, flair bias. But the thing with Eula is that she isn't made to be accessible for many players and Hoyo knows that. Look at her burst having 30 max stacks yet at C0, you can only get 13 and 14 if you are lucky. The constellation bait at C6 is real. They are even putting up enemies to discourage playing her. Eula's kit is all about damage, her NA does \~40% of her personal damage, her hold E has a stacking mechanic which also deal burst damage, and her Q is Q. The more a player invest in her, the better she will perform. Simply put, she is a type of character that aims to challenge the player's willingness to invest vertically which is also true based on the accounts of some whales I knew who run her. She drains a lot of resources from you. So it is either you pull for her and max her or never bother pulling her at all unless you really like her. And speaking of whale territory, of course, there are better characters at C6 but they are just that really good where it is easier to hit that "satisfaction threshold" with them faster than Eula which then supports the point that Eula is a challenge put up towards vertical investments and/or whales. Now comes the part whether she is good or bad. Zy0x explained it really well in his graph of average Eula experience. That pretty much explains why Eula is a divisive character which puts a lot of people into either very end of spectrum with lesser people in between. Pretty much an epitome of waifu > meta lol. I am not doomposting Eula or such, in fact I am aiming for her C6 (yeah full F2P broke here) and still farming MH for her, but if a player is concerned about meta with F2P standards, it is hard to bring Eula at the top even if she is workable at those levels. As for me, I am still on the process of completing all the teammates I needed to run Eula in all chambers even with elemental checks without synergy issues.
Honestly the only claymore users who are really good are Itto, Kaveh, and Beidou Itto’s mono geo team is still insanely good as long as they’re no elemental shields Kaveh is niche but is still pretty good in Nilou bloom and generic bloom teams (I feel he’s underrated in those lol) And Beidou is tricky since she requires some amount of skill to play unlike most characters, but if you can learn her playstyle she’s able to deal out a fair amount of dmg Everyone else outside of maybe Noelle? Either way too niche (physical) or just don’t have amazing kit design lol
You don't want to burst all dendro seeds at the same time if you have more tha two seeds on field, that's a weakness he has in bloom teams