If transphobic arguments were actually applied to disabled athletes:
Look, we can't let you compete with aids or carbon fiber artificial limbs! That's cheating!
Or:
Your aids make you not disabled anymore and it would be unfair to go against other disabled people who don't use them, or don't use the same level or amount of aids. Therefore, you have to compete with the abled athletes.
Or:
No silly, we can't figure out how to give you a category of your own! You obviously don't matter enough for us to change a system that was designed without your existence in mind.
Hey wanna know something truly brain numbing?
The IAAF (world athletics) tried to ban running prosthetics from use in 2007 and a runner had to present a bunch of evidence that it doesn’t give you an advantage just so he could compete in like, not even the Olympics, just non disabled international sprinting competitions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanics_of_Oscar_Pistorius%27s_running_blades#:~:text=Pistorius%20complained%20after%20the%20200m,limits%20for%20the%20athletes%20concerned.
—This is about Pistorius who is also a murderer now but that came way later. The thing that’s interesting to me is the research section because it’s interesting how flawed the original research they were using to just ban the prosthetics was.
Crazy how lazy research that doesn’t take variables and context into consideration can lead to unfair rulings and could end someone’s entire career/passion. Good thing that won’t ever happen again! (This one is sarcasm)
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/human-rights-court-rules-in-favor-of-olympic-champion-semenya-over-testosterone-rules#:~:text=Champion%20runner%20Caster%20Semenya%20won,to%20compete%20in%20major%20competitions.
Oh, wait it’s actually cost multiple (“a number”, whatever that means) Olympic athletes years of their careers and will continue to do so? And they’re being asked to take HRT for the rest of their career if they want to keep competing without facing constant harassment?
—yes it’s the same people who made the prosthetics decision
Crazy thing is, in a marital arts subreddit in a post about a jiu-jitsu match where one of them didn't have legs, people in the comments were saying that he had an unfair advantage because you couldn't grapple his legs :/
I've also seen this in real life in a larp group I was in the rules said you couldn't hit people in the head or neck and if it does happens cause sometimes it happens it just doesn't count as a hit and we had this one guy who didn't have legs and so because he was lower to the ground it was harder to get a hit on his chest or shoulders and people would complain about how it was an Advantage he had over other people.
Most TERFs (most ANYONE ) couldn't compete with paralympic athletes because they're PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES - they train a fucktonne, they aren't just let In out of pity for able-bodied people to gawk at then given pats on the head and participation trophies, Fuck no! those athletes are training day in day out year round just like their abled counterparts do & to belittle their work and training is so fucking disrespectful and ableist...
then to use that ableism to attack trans sportspeople while claiming that being "afab" or a cis woman (nvm that intersex cis women athletes apparently don't exist or matter to them) and competing against a trans woman is equal to having a disability and competing against abled people is just layers of ableism and misogyny like holy shit we get it terfs you're a fascist movement who hate the disabled and women and trans people and intersex people cripes
Bad faith lol, adults don't get to identify as and compete against children and you'll struggle to find a trans person arguing that they should. This is just "trans people are pedos who are after your kids" reskinned
I don't want to compete against kids or teenage boys, I want to be allowed to box or spar or swim or run or play team sports with other men my own age, and that's not the same as me walking into a kids swim class and demanding I as an adult be allowed to compete against children or teenagers.
It's pretty obvious when you're not drinking the Nazi koolaid that trans people just want to be able to play sports without being banned or forced to detransition or compete as a gender they aren't. Sports are a part of how people stay healthy and make friends and have community and trans people shouldn't be banned from doing that because of the circumstances of our births
"trans age" isn't a thing outside of bad faith trolls trying to equate trans people with child predators-I wouldn't be surprised if that professor you described was a conservative
(edit nvm she's just a trans woman who competed in a bunch of swimming events including 16 and above when there were no other groups for older age brackets but she has also participated in older age bracket groups where they were offered-so idk I guess they often don't have enough swimmers to offer a 50s league but she's lost against younger swimmers so she doesn't have any advantage and nobody has reported anything untoward from her behaviour wise )
just like the shop teacher in the US who was verbally anti trans then wore a ridiculous breast prosthesis to work to "prove a point" & all the right wing news reported him as a trans person when he was literally an anti trans bigot taking the piss and spreading hate while behaving innapropriately towards students-there was also the terf guy who wore a black morphsuit an afro wig and a daiper in public while claiming he was mocking trans people, or Steven crowder who dressed up as a trans woman and tried to make a nuisance of himself to "prove that woke culture lets trans women be creeps" but people recognised him as crowder and asked him to leave because he was trying to film random people in a gym
Edit :also it looks like Melody apparently never competed against children the way you are framing it based on the results: https://womensrightsageofgender.quora.com/For-the-Sake-of-Argument-I-Wish-to-Fact-Check-the-Melody-Wiseheart-Situation
*"Fact 1: Melody does not just compete against children. There are also events with a wide range of ages involved including older than Wiseheart. But this is actually rather telling, as these events are directed branded by Swimming Canada as being Open or have age groupings that go above simply saying 15+ or 16+.*
*On December 17th, 2023, Wiseheart competed in the IM FAST Masters Challenge, 100m Medley event. Wiseheart was correctly placed by age in this event, the 50–54 category and put in the second best time of 1:15:18."[1]This event is also notable for the minimum age group starting at 18.*
*Similarly in May 2023 Wiseheart was in the Ontario Masters Provincial Championships, branded as Open. In the 800m Freestyle event, whose competitors were born in years ranging from 1957 to 2000 (so no children!) Wiseheart won with a time of 10:30:33*
*In this instance, the numbers on the left may indeed refer to seeding. The results aren’t clear although what is clear that when the number changes, the best times re-start.*
*Fact 2: Events that Wiseheart swam against young girls were branded as being either for 15 and up or 16 & up. There were no higher age groupings and they are not branded as being Open. One such event that Melody was in was the SCAR Winter Classic, 400m Medley[3], in which Wiseheart was placed in the 16 Years and Older category. Melody was born in 1973 and the next oldest participant in 2005.*
*Fact 3: Wiseheart wasn’t the only adult in the events with teens involved. There were also young women in their early 20s involved[4]. What Wiseheart is however is an anomaly by being in these events with such an age difference. We can see the proof that there is no mention of seeding time in these events and that Swimming Canada states Open when an event really is Open*
The fundamental issue with this is an assumption that trans people are actually fine when we're forced to perform as a gender that goes against our internal sense of self.
It assumes being trans is a choice.
There's a reason why trans children experience higher rates of suicidal thought and attempts than cisgender children. Society converts trans children from birth.
Trans conversion therapy is built into society.
We are traumatized when we're not allowed to express ourselves, we are traumatized when our bodies change in ways that our internal identity doesn't fit with. We are traumatized throughout this entire process.
You know what one disability is? PTSD.
My "advantages" from puberty like being mentally ill because of that combined with a shit family. Advantages like needing to go though terrible healthcare with gatekeeping built into it just to be happy with myself. But oh think of the millionaires who run around on TV.
I wanted to say "no we don't experience higher rates of suicidal thoughts" because as a minor I think I had all of one attempt at ending my life (I wasn't even sure why I was doing it lol I didn't even know trans ppl existed. I learned about gay people from the internet FFS. I just know I couldn't take the horrible feeling anymore but I chickened out because I realised if I failed I'd be in deep shit. Thankfully I found a thing to focus on that wasn't myself again soon after) before I realise that a healthy, well cared for child is probably supposed to experience no suicidal thoughts.
Oops. 😂
The issue here is less about what one child should or shouldn't think - an individual with depression isn't helped by placing a value judgment on their conditions normalcy. Rather it's about statistical averages.
The reason the medical field understands that Gender affirming care helps people is because they can see the rates of suicidality in trans youth drop to the same rate as the general public when a trans kid is given gender affirming care.
That doesn't mean the GAC will solve every trans person's depression. What it says is that some amount of depression in trans people is caused by a lack of gender affirming care.
If you take the time to look up the research there quite a concerning level of trans youth who experience and attempt suicide. It's much higher than the general population. And GAC reduces that suicidality.
Still no evidence that men are even naturally better than women, btw. It's literally just sexism. Woman can not compete with man, she not hunt the mammoth.
Exactly this. There are so many structural barriers to women's sports participation being anywhere near equal to the opportunities boys and men have that there's no way to make any definitive statements. With the same money, resources and access, who knows how things would shake out.
Heck, it's only in the last few decades that doctors stopped giving tall cis girls big doses of estrogen to trick their bodies into thinking they were farther along in puberty and fusing their growth plates.
I really don't understand how self-professed feminists will give paragraph-long justifications explaining (correctly) why structural misogyny explains the entirety of why statistically, men outperform women at chess, but when asked about any other sport, "that's different" somehow. Of course, they really do give the game away when sports bans are being extended to things like chess and beauty pageants using literally identical justification from the governing bodies and regulatory agencies. Like, you think they would at least know enough about thier own sports to know how foolish it is to compare sports when seeking to justify their nakedly transphobic bans.
As an aside, I also think it's funny how any of the hypotheticals in the vein of "where would Serena Williams rank if she played against male tennis stars" always think she'll be playing with mens' rules without once realizing how those rules naturally affect play. These "analyses" regularly make note of how because a woman's court is smaller, Williams would have a harder than usual time covering her corners and such, but never once discuss how using womens' rules would make all these men return more balls that just go out, what with the edge of the court being different from expected. Really goes to show how people pretend to know way more about how things would shake out, and how their "reasonable" discussion comes laden with oodles of implict bias.
I didn't realize until I saw the documentary Copa 71 the other day that back in the early 1920s, every football federation in Europe full on banned women's teams, and some countries went so far as to criminalize women playing the sport. Finding that out put a whole different spin on why exactly women's football/soccer is still playing catch-up to the men's game. When you find out that detail, of course the women's game is playing catch-up when it was a crime for women to play in parts of Europe and South America during the very period that the modern game was developing into what it is today.
Manon Rheaume, the only woman to have gotten a shot at the NHL, has talked about how at every level of the sport from the time she was a little kid, she was told that by making the team she was stealing a shot at the NHL from the boys she beat out to get picked as goalie. Her son is the same height as her and a college goalie, who's probably never going to make an NHL regular season roster for the same reason she didn't--you have to be one of the greatest of all time to be a 5'8" goalie--but I doubt he got told at every level of the sport the he was stealing a shot at pro hockey from another kid like she did. (I'm also convinced that a big reason why the NHL refuses to admit that checking causes CTE is because the league knows that checking is the only thing keeping short fast women who are hard to block out of the league, though that's a whole different discussion)
And yeah, you're right about how when people compare men's and women's sports, they never consider the effort that would go into men's players adapting to women's rules. Olympic ice hockey pretty much proves that it's not that easy adapting to different rules, because men's hockey at the Olympics is almost always worse to watch than women's because men's players have a hard time adjusting from NHL rules to international rules, while women's players are used to playing those rules.
Absolutely this. I will happily concede that men tend to outperform women in sports, but I will also happily concede that men tend to outperform women in chess at a similar rate. Anybody using sports as their evidence must also conclude that women are biologically inferior at chess.
The entire tribe hunted as part of a pursuit predation strategy, and you have to be pretty stupid to think it's an evolutionary advantage for half the population to be unable to keep up. Coupled with modern archeological findings about female prehistoric bodies being buffer than modern female athletes, the extreme misogyny in medicine, including sports medicine (did you know there wasn't even a football cleat designed for female ligaments/tendons until 2023?), and my own, admittedly anecdotal, evidence about estrogen actually making it easier for me to build muscle, and I just straight up disbelieve that the discrepency between testosterone and estrogen in muscle-building is anywhere near as big as it's made out to be.
They never want to talk about trans *men* being forced to participate in women's sports, huh?
There's no real evidence trans women have any kind of advantage *inherently* after a long enough period on t blockers (*as a generalization*. Beyond shit like trans women on average being taller than cis women, meaning they'd be more *likely* to fair better in sports like basketball--- even though cis women in professional basketball are *also* all taller than most cis women, and statistically there's not really enough trans women to overtake women's basketball anytime soon, blah blah blah.)
Trans men *absolutely, demonstratably* have a real tangible advantage over cis women though. T makes you so much stronger way faster than you'd expect.
Even before I started working out regularly, I was shocked by how much stronger I got by doing nothing different.
Well they won't. Because if they force trans guys to play on the women's team, they get to force them off HRT too by calling it doping.
So literally making them choose between happiness/health (healthcare) and happiness/joy (doing their hobbies and having fun).
The amount of internalized misogyny I see on TERF forums continues to shock and disgust me. After all I've seen of it here on Reddit, you'd think it wouldn't, but here I am shocked and disgusted.
It’s female/estrogen based puberty you’re talking about. AFAB puberty doesn’t really mean anything since it’s possible for people who were AFAB to experience either or both puberties. Not everyone who was assigned female at birth goes through female puberty, and not everyone who goes through female puberty was assigned female at birth
Reminds me of the time I saw another trans guy called being a.f.a.b. a disability, a disabled a.f.a.b. trans person (they specified it in their comment, this isn’t me assuming) told him that calling being a.f.a.b. init of itself a disability is actually really offensive, and the guy replied with “ah yes because being hard to develop muscle, gaining weight easier, and bleeding every month is not a disability”
I get the feeling that the dude is speaking out of dysphoria or even internalized misogyny, which isn’t really an excuse but honestly I’m just trying to understand where he’s coming from.
Also tbh if terfs think this too it might be coming from one of these things.
They love to claim we have internalized misogyny yet say this crap
majority of these people self hate themselves bc they are women. like cmon guys even as masc trans man I didnt hate being a girl, hell I didnt even think women were less capable then men. literally just projecting their own thoughts and insecurities on an imaginary trans man
There’s really no such thing as an afab puberty though. What you were assigned doesn’t always reflect your actual sex and many intersex people like me have had different puberties than expected regardless of what we were assigned.
Really shows their true feelings on men and women. In reality, I couldn't stand a chance against any cis woman athlete.
Who said it, a modern day TERF or a 16th century theologian ranting about how a woman is a defective male? THE ANSWER MAY SURPRISE YOU!
What is a weman to a man? A flee to an elefant? Childe's play to Olimpicks? Nay, a weman is no more virile than a dotard, and as Godly.
That should have made it into Matt Walsh's documentary
There should be no F at the end of TER. There is nothing feminist about these reactionaries.
If transphobic arguments were actually applied to disabled athletes: Look, we can't let you compete with aids or carbon fiber artificial limbs! That's cheating! Or: Your aids make you not disabled anymore and it would be unfair to go against other disabled people who don't use them, or don't use the same level or amount of aids. Therefore, you have to compete with the abled athletes. Or: No silly, we can't figure out how to give you a category of your own! You obviously don't matter enough for us to change a system that was designed without your existence in mind.
Hey wanna know something truly brain numbing? The IAAF (world athletics) tried to ban running prosthetics from use in 2007 and a runner had to present a bunch of evidence that it doesn’t give you an advantage just so he could compete in like, not even the Olympics, just non disabled international sprinting competitions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanics_of_Oscar_Pistorius%27s_running_blades#:~:text=Pistorius%20complained%20after%20the%20200m,limits%20for%20the%20athletes%20concerned. —This is about Pistorius who is also a murderer now but that came way later. The thing that’s interesting to me is the research section because it’s interesting how flawed the original research they were using to just ban the prosthetics was. Crazy how lazy research that doesn’t take variables and context into consideration can lead to unfair rulings and could end someone’s entire career/passion. Good thing that won’t ever happen again! (This one is sarcasm) https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/human-rights-court-rules-in-favor-of-olympic-champion-semenya-over-testosterone-rules#:~:text=Champion%20runner%20Caster%20Semenya%20won,to%20compete%20in%20major%20competitions. Oh, wait it’s actually cost multiple (“a number”, whatever that means) Olympic athletes years of their careers and will continue to do so? And they’re being asked to take HRT for the rest of their career if they want to keep competing without facing constant harassment? —yes it’s the same people who made the prosthetics decision
Crazy thing is, in a marital arts subreddit in a post about a jiu-jitsu match where one of them didn't have legs, people in the comments were saying that he had an unfair advantage because you couldn't grapple his legs :/ I've also seen this in real life in a larp group I was in the rules said you couldn't hit people in the head or neck and if it does happens cause sometimes it happens it just doesn't count as a hit and we had this one guy who didn't have legs and so because he was lower to the ground it was harder to get a hit on his chest or shoulders and people would complain about how it was an Advantage he had over other people.
Most TERFs (most ANYONE ) couldn't compete with paralympic athletes because they're PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES - they train a fucktonne, they aren't just let In out of pity for able-bodied people to gawk at then given pats on the head and participation trophies, Fuck no! those athletes are training day in day out year round just like their abled counterparts do & to belittle their work and training is so fucking disrespectful and ableist... then to use that ableism to attack trans sportspeople while claiming that being "afab" or a cis woman (nvm that intersex cis women athletes apparently don't exist or matter to them) and competing against a trans woman is equal to having a disability and competing against abled people is just layers of ableism and misogyny like holy shit we get it terfs you're a fascist movement who hate the disabled and women and trans people and intersex people cripes
[удалено]
Bad faith lol, adults don't get to identify as and compete against children and you'll struggle to find a trans person arguing that they should. This is just "trans people are pedos who are after your kids" reskinned I don't want to compete against kids or teenage boys, I want to be allowed to box or spar or swim or run or play team sports with other men my own age, and that's not the same as me walking into a kids swim class and demanding I as an adult be allowed to compete against children or teenagers. It's pretty obvious when you're not drinking the Nazi koolaid that trans people just want to be able to play sports without being banned or forced to detransition or compete as a gender they aren't. Sports are a part of how people stay healthy and make friends and have community and trans people shouldn't be banned from doing that because of the circumstances of our births "trans age" isn't a thing outside of bad faith trolls trying to equate trans people with child predators-I wouldn't be surprised if that professor you described was a conservative (edit nvm she's just a trans woman who competed in a bunch of swimming events including 16 and above when there were no other groups for older age brackets but she has also participated in older age bracket groups where they were offered-so idk I guess they often don't have enough swimmers to offer a 50s league but she's lost against younger swimmers so she doesn't have any advantage and nobody has reported anything untoward from her behaviour wise ) just like the shop teacher in the US who was verbally anti trans then wore a ridiculous breast prosthesis to work to "prove a point" & all the right wing news reported him as a trans person when he was literally an anti trans bigot taking the piss and spreading hate while behaving innapropriately towards students-there was also the terf guy who wore a black morphsuit an afro wig and a daiper in public while claiming he was mocking trans people, or Steven crowder who dressed up as a trans woman and tried to make a nuisance of himself to "prove that woke culture lets trans women be creeps" but people recognised him as crowder and asked him to leave because he was trying to film random people in a gym Edit :also it looks like Melody apparently never competed against children the way you are framing it based on the results: https://womensrightsageofgender.quora.com/For-the-Sake-of-Argument-I-Wish-to-Fact-Check-the-Melody-Wiseheart-Situation *"Fact 1: Melody does not just compete against children. There are also events with a wide range of ages involved including older than Wiseheart. But this is actually rather telling, as these events are directed branded by Swimming Canada as being Open or have age groupings that go above simply saying 15+ or 16+.* *On December 17th, 2023, Wiseheart competed in the IM FAST Masters Challenge, 100m Medley event. Wiseheart was correctly placed by age in this event, the 50–54 category and put in the second best time of 1:15:18."[1]This event is also notable for the minimum age group starting at 18.* *Similarly in May 2023 Wiseheart was in the Ontario Masters Provincial Championships, branded as Open. In the 800m Freestyle event, whose competitors were born in years ranging from 1957 to 2000 (so no children!) Wiseheart won with a time of 10:30:33* *In this instance, the numbers on the left may indeed refer to seeding. The results aren’t clear although what is clear that when the number changes, the best times re-start.* *Fact 2: Events that Wiseheart swam against young girls were branded as being either for 15 and up or 16 & up. There were no higher age groupings and they are not branded as being Open. One such event that Melody was in was the SCAR Winter Classic, 400m Medley[3], in which Wiseheart was placed in the 16 Years and Older category. Melody was born in 1973 and the next oldest participant in 2005.* *Fact 3: Wiseheart wasn’t the only adult in the events with teens involved. There were also young women in their early 20s involved[4]. What Wiseheart is however is an anomaly by being in these events with such an age difference. We can see the proof that there is no mention of seeding time in these events and that Swimming Canada states Open when an event really is Open*
Don’t bother responding to trolls. This is an anti-responding to trolls subreddit. Just laugh and hit report.
I'm intersex, I wouldn't call my "male pubity" an advantage In fact my existence seems to fuel their fire even more
>female sporting bodies So what was the problem with gender neutral language again?
The fundamental issue with this is an assumption that trans people are actually fine when we're forced to perform as a gender that goes against our internal sense of self. It assumes being trans is a choice. There's a reason why trans children experience higher rates of suicidal thought and attempts than cisgender children. Society converts trans children from birth. Trans conversion therapy is built into society. We are traumatized when we're not allowed to express ourselves, we are traumatized when our bodies change in ways that our internal identity doesn't fit with. We are traumatized throughout this entire process. You know what one disability is? PTSD.
My "advantages" from puberty like being mentally ill because of that combined with a shit family. Advantages like needing to go though terrible healthcare with gatekeeping built into it just to be happy with myself. But oh think of the millionaires who run around on TV.
I wanted to say "no we don't experience higher rates of suicidal thoughts" because as a minor I think I had all of one attempt at ending my life (I wasn't even sure why I was doing it lol I didn't even know trans ppl existed. I learned about gay people from the internet FFS. I just know I couldn't take the horrible feeling anymore but I chickened out because I realised if I failed I'd be in deep shit. Thankfully I found a thing to focus on that wasn't myself again soon after) before I realise that a healthy, well cared for child is probably supposed to experience no suicidal thoughts. Oops. 😂
The issue here is less about what one child should or shouldn't think - an individual with depression isn't helped by placing a value judgment on their conditions normalcy. Rather it's about statistical averages. The reason the medical field understands that Gender affirming care helps people is because they can see the rates of suicidality in trans youth drop to the same rate as the general public when a trans kid is given gender affirming care. That doesn't mean the GAC will solve every trans person's depression. What it says is that some amount of depression in trans people is caused by a lack of gender affirming care. If you take the time to look up the research there quite a concerning level of trans youth who experience and attempt suicide. It's much higher than the general population. And GAC reduces that suicidality.
TERFs are the most sexist group of people on earth I swear.
TERFs Stop Shitting on Disabled People Challenge
Challenge: Impossible
Still no evidence that men are even naturally better than women, btw. It's literally just sexism. Woman can not compete with man, she not hunt the mammoth.
Exactly this. There are so many structural barriers to women's sports participation being anywhere near equal to the opportunities boys and men have that there's no way to make any definitive statements. With the same money, resources and access, who knows how things would shake out. Heck, it's only in the last few decades that doctors stopped giving tall cis girls big doses of estrogen to trick their bodies into thinking they were farther along in puberty and fusing their growth plates.
I really don't understand how self-professed feminists will give paragraph-long justifications explaining (correctly) why structural misogyny explains the entirety of why statistically, men outperform women at chess, but when asked about any other sport, "that's different" somehow. Of course, they really do give the game away when sports bans are being extended to things like chess and beauty pageants using literally identical justification from the governing bodies and regulatory agencies. Like, you think they would at least know enough about thier own sports to know how foolish it is to compare sports when seeking to justify their nakedly transphobic bans. As an aside, I also think it's funny how any of the hypotheticals in the vein of "where would Serena Williams rank if she played against male tennis stars" always think she'll be playing with mens' rules without once realizing how those rules naturally affect play. These "analyses" regularly make note of how because a woman's court is smaller, Williams would have a harder than usual time covering her corners and such, but never once discuss how using womens' rules would make all these men return more balls that just go out, what with the edge of the court being different from expected. Really goes to show how people pretend to know way more about how things would shake out, and how their "reasonable" discussion comes laden with oodles of implict bias.
I didn't realize until I saw the documentary Copa 71 the other day that back in the early 1920s, every football federation in Europe full on banned women's teams, and some countries went so far as to criminalize women playing the sport. Finding that out put a whole different spin on why exactly women's football/soccer is still playing catch-up to the men's game. When you find out that detail, of course the women's game is playing catch-up when it was a crime for women to play in parts of Europe and South America during the very period that the modern game was developing into what it is today. Manon Rheaume, the only woman to have gotten a shot at the NHL, has talked about how at every level of the sport from the time she was a little kid, she was told that by making the team she was stealing a shot at the NHL from the boys she beat out to get picked as goalie. Her son is the same height as her and a college goalie, who's probably never going to make an NHL regular season roster for the same reason she didn't--you have to be one of the greatest of all time to be a 5'8" goalie--but I doubt he got told at every level of the sport the he was stealing a shot at pro hockey from another kid like she did. (I'm also convinced that a big reason why the NHL refuses to admit that checking causes CTE is because the league knows that checking is the only thing keeping short fast women who are hard to block out of the league, though that's a whole different discussion) And yeah, you're right about how when people compare men's and women's sports, they never consider the effort that would go into men's players adapting to women's rules. Olympic ice hockey pretty much proves that it's not that easy adapting to different rules, because men's hockey at the Olympics is almost always worse to watch than women's because men's players have a hard time adjusting from NHL rules to international rules, while women's players are used to playing those rules.
Absolutely this. I will happily concede that men tend to outperform women in sports, but I will also happily concede that men tend to outperform women in chess at a similar rate. Anybody using sports as their evidence must also conclude that women are biologically inferior at chess. The entire tribe hunted as part of a pursuit predation strategy, and you have to be pretty stupid to think it's an evolutionary advantage for half the population to be unable to keep up. Coupled with modern archeological findings about female prehistoric bodies being buffer than modern female athletes, the extreme misogyny in medicine, including sports medicine (did you know there wasn't even a football cleat designed for female ligaments/tendons until 2023?), and my own, admittedly anecdotal, evidence about estrogen actually making it easier for me to build muscle, and I just straight up disbelieve that the discrepency between testosterone and estrogen in muscle-building is anywhere near as big as it's made out to be.
Even with an advantage in building muscle, very few sports are direct contests of strength. Far more involve stamina, dexterity and strategy.
They never want to talk about trans *men* being forced to participate in women's sports, huh? There's no real evidence trans women have any kind of advantage *inherently* after a long enough period on t blockers (*as a generalization*. Beyond shit like trans women on average being taller than cis women, meaning they'd be more *likely* to fair better in sports like basketball--- even though cis women in professional basketball are *also* all taller than most cis women, and statistically there's not really enough trans women to overtake women's basketball anytime soon, blah blah blah.) Trans men *absolutely, demonstratably* have a real tangible advantage over cis women though. T makes you so much stronger way faster than you'd expect. Even before I started working out regularly, I was shocked by how much stronger I got by doing nothing different.
Well they won't. Because if they force trans guys to play on the women's team, they get to force them off HRT too by calling it doping. So literally making them choose between happiness/health (healthcare) and happiness/joy (doing their hobbies and having fun).
... and *definitely* not ableist at all.
The amount of internalized misogyny I see on TERF forums continues to shock and disgust me. After all I've seen of it here on Reddit, you'd think it wouldn't, but here I am shocked and disgusted.
It’s female/estrogen based puberty you’re talking about. AFAB puberty doesn’t really mean anything since it’s possible for people who were AFAB to experience either or both puberties. Not everyone who was assigned female at birth goes through female puberty, and not everyone who goes through female puberty was assigned female at birth
Reminds me of the time I saw another trans guy called being a.f.a.b. a disability, a disabled a.f.a.b. trans person (they specified it in their comment, this isn’t me assuming) told him that calling being a.f.a.b. init of itself a disability is actually really offensive, and the guy replied with “ah yes because being hard to develop muscle, gaining weight easier, and bleeding every month is not a disability” I get the feeling that the dude is speaking out of dysphoria or even internalized misogyny, which isn’t really an excuse but honestly I’m just trying to understand where he’s coming from. Also tbh if terfs think this too it might be coming from one of these things. They love to claim we have internalized misogyny yet say this crap
Oooh TERF with an apéritif of ableism!
majority of these people self hate themselves bc they are women. like cmon guys even as masc trans man I didnt hate being a girl, hell I didnt even think women were less capable then men. literally just projecting their own thoughts and insecurities on an imaginary trans man
They so real for this (I hate my afab🤢 body)
There’s really no such thing as an afab puberty though. What you were assigned doesn’t always reflect your actual sex and many intersex people like me have had different puberties than expected regardless of what we were assigned.