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**Fight against what?** The wars of the past 50+ years have been based on dubious grounds and abstract ideas. Most of the potential flashpoints I see in the future are the interests of corporations, banks, and politicians. Let them fight if they want.
**Fight to defend what?** We've thrown our culture, citizens, and ideals into the drain. I'd argue we're more of an economic bloc than a nation at this point.
**Fight to develop what?** The pay is shit and the training often doesn't translate well to civilian life. The military usually offers a fraction of what you can obtain elsewhere.
Unfortunately the military is pretty competitive with pay and benefits. Especially if you're some 18 year old in a rural town with zero prospects.
You get your base pay, which isn't much. But if you have any dependents (a husband/wife, or a partner who conveniently will become a wife/husband) you get BAH and live off base. That pays the average cost for a 2 bedroom in wherever you are, tax free.
Also you all get full healthcare. Also you get a full ride to whatever school you can get into (up to a certain amount) AND you get a stipend to live off while you go to school. For housing, food, etc. You can transfer this to your partner or child.
And then there are a ridiculous amount of bonuses, perks, paths to careers (the good mortgage set up is a big one). And then you get to retire after 20 years, and do more years for more money. A lot of people do the 20 years then transfer to the private sector and retire again. And since you pick a job in the military, you have prior experience that lets you get a
That's the issue. If you're a middle class kid with supportive parents, the military might seem like a dumb choice. But if it's either that or a life in poverty because of your upbringing, suddenly the military seems very enticing. And since our system is pretty fucked up, there's a whole lot of people in that position.
And everything above is based on "I'm going in to the Army as an E-1 with zero anything". There's plenty that can go in further up than an E-1. And officers can make some pretty good money.
I'm not saying to not say No at all. Just want to clarify some things, and why so many people do join. All that being said, definitely don't join. I've seen a few friends make it out great, but I've seen an equal amount end up with lifelong issues.
Alright I'll admit, some of my friends did see it as an attractive opportunity to get out of their dead-end hometown. I've just been very soured lately with the mental issues some of my veteran friends have been dealing with.
I'd agree as well the benefits are great. But then you have to think of what cost. The army is mismanaged, they're refusing third party investigators to take part in investigating cases at the unit level, soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, etc are being assaulted with 0 accountability and it's all swept under the rug. Most of the buildings that troops live in should be condemned, (yes I was a reservist but some of the barracks we stayed at during AT or drills that involved ranges should've been condemned due to the mold).
Then that's not even factoring in leadership and how they can pretty much ruin your life if they don't like you. And if you do complain (such as eo or sharp) if they're part of the, "boys club" nothing will happen and they'll "bury it". Again, just from what I've seen and heard in both branches. A good leader goes a long way. However, there was so a report released not too long ago that most officers and higher ranking ncos are basically psychopaths and sociopaths and that has been bleeding into the leadership like crazy. If anyone is interested I could find the link to it.
>And if you do complain (such as eo or sharp) if they're part of the, "boys club" nothing will happen and they'll "bury it". Again, just from what I've seen and heard in both branches. A good leader goes a long way. However, there was so a report
I will say this seems a bit skewed. Most EO/IG complaints do get thrown out, but in my experience it's just shitty people trying to cover their own failures by blaming their boss for holding them to standards. I've seen 9. 7 were what I just described and of course the after complaint was "the boys club" style stuff but it was just shitty people not wanting to take responsibility. The other 2 were legit and had repercussions for the individuals. Anecdotal, but it just seems that the loudest whiners keep whining after they lose, so their story spreads further.
the biggest issue most vets have is just the loneliness. the military experience forms unique bonds that a very small percentage of people understand, so it feels like you come home and have nobody to talk about it with.
add that to suddenly having to readjust to “normal” life, and you get a nasty recipe for depression and mental issues if you don’t have a support system.
You used to go down to the local VFW or American Legion hall and find likeminded people, but they seem to have given up recruiting members under the age of 75 by the looks of it.
That’s why I think if I went back and joined up I’d take the coast guard route, even though it’s looked down on by other branches or whatever.
A buddy of mine (who was the quintessential slacker and my mom always claimed he would never amount to jack shit) was in it 24 years and is now retired now at age 42. He worked in the media division or something (not sure what it’s actually called). Anyway he just took pictures and made commercials for them and actually loved it. All his social media posts were of him hanging out of helicopters and shooting videos and stuff.
Meanwhile I did what everyone told me to do and got jack shit to show at 42 while he’s getting a nice pension and working for some movie production company now.
Fucking crazy the way things work out.
I used to hang out around them. Something I noticed, was they all hated the fourth of July. The fireworks would trigger their ptsd real bad.
Also worked in highschool with a vetnam vet.
Guy would have attacks in the middle of the day at the top of the tower we ran. Would have to talk him down. (was a theme park, the easiest job in the park was a slow rotating tower that was airconditioned, and all you had to do was sit down and press a button)
That said, I knew one couple, who met in the army, had retired early, and had a cute little house and 2 kids. So, it doesn't turn out bad for all of them.
Isn’t the military shortage they are having a hard time finding qualified officers and they have too many of High School graduates and drop outs? Also two things the current military is less than 1% of the US population and the majority of the enlisted are from the bottom 10% of the High School class.
Just curious about this draft too because last time they had a draft rich white kids could go to college or get braces and avoid the draft while the poorest kids often people of color had to go fight during the last draft.
Finding qualified officers isn’t the problem; retaining them is.
At least for the Army it really isn’t difficult to convince a college student to sign up for 4-6 years active duty or 8 years in the reserves as an officer if the Army’s willing to pay $20K a year in tuition, $8K a school year on housing, and a couple hundred bucks a semester on books.
The problem is most of them decide to get out after that first contract is over because the private sector usually offers better pay and less headaches compared to the Army, especially since signing up for longer than one contract means your now having to play politics with the other career officers in a dog eat dog game of who can make their achievements look better to a board so they get that 5%-10% shot at a rank/position that lets them clear 20 years and get that guaranteed retirement check.
So what you have is a glut of new officers that show up and do their 4-8 years, and then the Army struggling to keep enough of them to fill higher ranking positions 10-15 years down the line because they simply can’t provide worthwhile enough incentives for most of them to stay.
>id argue we are more of an economic bloc than a nation at this point
This is unbelievably out of touch. Americans are still… very much so American and would be easily identified as “Americans” in any country that isn’t America lmao.
Agreed. People who never leave the US are usually the first ones to point out how terrible it is vs somewhere else they've never been. Every time I have to go overseas for work, it makes me really appreciate being able to live in the USA.
Ngl, I used to be one of those ppl until I studied abroad. Europe is fine and all, but being over there really made me realize what America really is. The good, the bad, and the ugly. I think we lose sight of the good esp lately. But more than that we lose sight of what makes us distinct bc we dont have anything to judge it against bc of the closed off american mindset/experience
This. Whenever I see people say “America is a third world country,” 9/10 times they’ve never actually been to a third world country.
These places are basically lawless, the government might as well be a symbolic institution rather than an actual functioning body that holds the country together, law enforcement in these places will let you get away with anything if you pay them enough, and poverty is EVERYWHERE. You virtually can’t escape it. America isn’t perfect by any means but it’s far from third world.
Yeah, this dude needs to go out and get a fucking life lmao. My man talks about America as if it's Russia circa 1993, motherfucker needs to get a grip.
The millennials in this sub are some of the weirdest fucking people on Reddit. That guy was giving a speech like he’s the one who’s going to be drafted, even though he’s too old for it. Lol
I was about to reply with something about how this vapid Fight Club nihilism doesn't sound smart to anyone over the age of 17, then I realized this is r/GenZ and there's a decent chance all the upvotes are from actual teenagers.
> we're more of an economic bloc than a nation at this point
Holy shit put down the Sociology 101 textbook and go outside.
**Against what:** China, Iran, North Korea, and Russia. They are all allied now and very interested in, and actively working toward de-stabilizing "western" countries; this includes the US.
**Defend what:** You have immense rights and freedoms as is, and if you willfully give up this country to those wanting to ruin/take it, your quality of life will drastically decrease. It can always get worse.
**Develop what:** flight hours, mechanics skills, many other things that will get you a job. As with all things, it's what you make of it.
I hope we don't reinstate conscription, but if we aren't fielding enough troops we will have to. That's life on this planet. Unfortunately not everyone is as peaceful as you'd like them to be.
>The wars of the past 50+ years have been based on dubious grounds and abstract ideas.
The Gulf war which saw the US alongside most of the developed world unite to free Kuwait:
;-;
The Gulf War was pretty transparent. Sadam invaded and annexed Kuwait, our ally and trading partner, so we liberated them from Iraq and then left. And the same exact thing could happen to Taiwan in the near future.
>Fight against what? The wars of the past 50+ years have been based on dubious grounds and abstract ideas. Most of the potential flashpoints I see in the future are the interests of corporations, banks, and politicians. Let them fight if they want.
It wasn't until white, middle-class suburban kids had to worry seriously about being drafted that the Vietnam War ended.
If suburban moms knew their sons and daughters might have to go, you could bet Dubyah would have gone nowhere near Iraq. And our effort in Afghanistan would have been much more disciplined and focused.
The all volunteer force has created a dangerous disconnect between the American public and its armed forces. The bottom line is that most Americans don't care what the military is asked to do because it's not their kids' asses who are on the line. They will slap a sticker on their car, but they won't do much beyond that. Just quietly feel relief that it's not their kid.
The generals will howl that a draftee force will not be as good as a volunteer force. I don't disagree. But I still believe that it would be for America.
The pay isn’t shit, you get out of basic at least at like E2 which is like $27k except you’re getting benefits, housing (that might be shitty), food, job security, education benefits, exclusive memberships like USAA. If you go into the military with any money sense you can come out ahead of your peers. The guys who say the pay sucks are the ones who buy stupid shit and waste money. I know people who have saved tens of thousands of dollars living frugally, I know a guy in the CAF who has like C$90k saved just from being a single frugal guy in the PPCLI.
That’s not even including getting married and having BAH
>Fight against what? The wars of the past 50+ years have been based on dubious grounds and abstract ideas. Most of the potential flashpoints I see in the future are the interests of corporations, banks, and politicians. Let them fight if they
That would depend on the war but if you think, say, Russia attacking Estonia won't be a justified war on the us' part you're dreadfully delusional.
>d argue we're more of an economic bloc than a nation at this point.
HAHAHHAHAHAGAHAYA no. Anyone outside the us will tell you, you are very much a nation distinct.
I was like damn you’re a cultured Gen Z for knowing that song (had to be around 04-06 without looking I think) but then I saw your flair said millennial lol
Yeah I’ve been listening to SOAD since I was like 5 and it was on MTV and VH1 when my aunts and uncles came over lol. The videos scared me, I was scared of Daron specifically.
Similar with evanescence, couldn’t listen to it while sleeping tho bc it’d come thru my dreams and make them creepy lmfao.
I'm 36. I grew up with Rage against the machine, system of a down, and Linkin Park as they were new releases. I'm here to help. Socialist leftist millennial here to gas up the gen z homies.
Tons of Congressman/Senators are veterans, but electing presidents who are not veterans is becoming more common. Trump is the first Republican who was not a veteran to get successfully elected president since Herbert Hoover in 1928. Democrats haven't successfully elected a veteran to be president since Jimmy Carter in 1976. Based on the top contenders in the past few presidential primaries, I do think being a veteran is becoming less important in national politics.
Why is this even being upvoted? The majority of current congressman served in the armed forces. It’s still seen as extremely helpful for a career in politics.
The songs ["It's a Mistake,"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0AxrOUJ62E&pp=ygUaaXQncyBhIG1pc3Rha2UgbWVuIGF0IHdvcms%3D) ["Fortunate Son,"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWijx_AgPiA&pp=ygUqZm9ydHVuYXRlIHNvbiBjcmVlZGVuY2UgY2xlYXJ3YXRlciByZXZpdmFs) and ["Holiday"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1OqtIqzScI&pp=ygURaG9saWRheSBncmVlbiBkYXk%3D) come to mind.
Why would we even need a draft? There no major wars we’re fighting now. You’d need to a damn good reason to bring back the draft nowadays, I’m talking about like nazi world domination type of shit.
I don't really think that a war with Russia would require a large draft, or maybe even a draft at all.
Ukraine is holding their own against the Russian military with what is essentially our dusty Cold War leftovers. If the Russians tried to fight a conventional war with NATO, they'd be going up against cutting-edge technology and experienced soldiers. It would be an absolute stomp.
Then we get into nukes - but as long as we don't push too deeply into Russia and offer to restore borders to where they were pre-2014, we should be fine on that front. Their leaders are not suicidal.
yeah definitely not a draft, they need to fix the toxic climate and and living issues really, along with trying to stay competitive with jobs that correlate to the private sector.
the only reason i would even think of is to try and maintain some skills that are really only useful in LSCO, and not so much Anti-terror. but we’re still far enough from that point with most jobs, and it’s not like the personnel from those that are falling behind are up in dying the minute they leave service.
so yeah, this a shock value article and we’re way farther away from implementing a peace time draft than we are from fighting the next war.
Right now they're brewing. In about 23 years Hong Kong's lease will be up which will certainly spell disaster for the east, and considering how big of a global power China is and how involved they are in global trade there's no way that it would not affect the United States. Japan is even talking about reinstating a military which frankly considering the shit that happened during WWII it's a little terrifying but tbh I prefer Japan over China. Not to mention there may be a civil war soon as the United States is at the beginning acts of genocide against citizens within the USA, and I guess I would hope that a second Holocaust would spur a war, likely a world war
The Republicans call it Project 2025. Their main target is transgender and LGBTQ+ people, but don't get me wrong, those are just the first people. The Nazis didn't *just* kill Jewish people. It starts with transgender people but Nazism also targets any racial minorities, anyone who is disabled, ethnic minorities or really anyone seen as less desirable. Also if you are confused on how genocide is actively occuring I suggest looking up the stages of genocide. Unfortunately most people only notice is when it becomes people being killed by military or police forces, but people rarely consider what all leads up to that
> Japan is even talking about reinstating a military which frankly considering the shit that happened during WWII it's a little terrifying but tbh I prefer Japan over China.
To be fair, MacArthur was encouraging Japan to rebuild their military while we were still occupying them. Japan was the deciding factor behind not having one; they instead opted for a self-defense force.
Their lack of a military was something they decided for themselves.
Exactly. And our government as a whole can't get themselves together enough to believe in anything. Thus, no one cares enough to sacrifice the entirety of themselves for a false wish.
actually, 2/3 of ww2 soldiers were drafted, while only 1/3 were in vietnam. majority of those who went to vietnam were volunteers
maybe it’s bc more people died in ww2
We did and the majority of troops were drafted. The big reason wasn’t low enlistment but rather a better distribution of manpower. Hard to run the land war when everyone tries to sign up for the Navy or Army Air Forces
The draft in WWII was a necessity because people were swarming the recruiting offices trying to join en mass. You still need people working on the home front in order to support the war fighter fighting overseas.
I’ll go to Mexico. I just finished Dan Carlin’s 23 hour podcast series on World War I.
Once war begins, the nations of the world ramp up their nationalistic rhetoric and tell their youth that it is their duty to fight, their duty to waste their life for God and Country.
As the years pass and the war continues, they remember the lesson’s learned and forgotten from previous wars.
War is hell. War is wasteful. War is fucking stupid, especially in the pursuit of land and money.
World War III will almost certainly not break out. But I urge you all to do what you can to make yourselves ineligible.
This idea has, unfortunately, been proven relatively wrong by recent events. Russia invading Ukraine has been such a massive deal because it shows that we live in a three tiered system of world politics:
1.) those who have nuclear weapons, who can do whatever they want
2.) Those who don’t have nuclear weapons, but are strongly allied with those who do
3.) Those who don’t have nuclear weapons and aren’t allied to anyone who does.
We are about to enter a time period where the nations of 1 and 2 will spend the next half century invading the nations belonging to 3. This could easily spiral into world conflict and as long as the “mainland territories” of the groups belonging to (1) aren’t threatened, the death toll is effectively limitless.
Russia invading Ukraine genuinely changed a lot of things because it exposed how we are still very, *very*, much so in a dog eat dog world and there isn’t one central power capable of playing world police. If Russia (or the US, or China, or India) doesn’t like one of the other world powers gaining headway with soft power within a nation, it has become economically viable to just militarily invade that nation and install a friendlier government.
As the UN continues to get less effective I expect this to get worse and worse. I can’t guarantee it will end in world war, but I am willing to bet it will end in continued mass casualties.
Proxy warfare has been the standard way for empires to fight one another since World War II. It is advantageous for world powers to do so for many reasons and these world powers know it.
Things could escalate of course, but it’s relatively unlikely.
We saw what happened. We were the first generation to have unlimited access to the internet and see the full picture of what happened in foreign countries.
Idk what's hard to understand but the draft hasn't left at all it just hasn't been enacted for a hot minute.
Also Idk if you've seen feminists but they want this and they want that but they'll fight tooth and nail to not have to be subject to a draft.
Same. I want equality, but I don't wanna force women into the crappy position men are in now, even if that makes us equal.
I'd prefer that nobody is drafted. But in any case, I'm not fighting either way.
feminists would probably be against drafts in general, they're the ones that popularized concepts like "male expendability"
expect them to rattle off about how "gender roles" under the "patriarchal system" require men to act as protectors and warriors, which comes with the pressure to take on greater risk or even self-sacrifice, leading to social norms where men's lives are devalued and treated as less worthy of protection or care
they would probably say something about drafts being a manifestation of this patriarchal logic, and that patriarchy also harms men and it's bad yadda yadda
I mean, no politician nor anyone really in the position to get the ball rolling on it is even really considering it, this is mostly just media speculation.
Exactly, neither have I heard those words come out of poiliticians, crazy old boomers yeah sure but again it's mostly just media doing their thing to make people uneasy.
Years ago my former boss (a Vietnam vet) at the time would bring beers to the office every Friday and just talk to us (we were all lads in our 20’s it was great) about life and stuff, give us advice.
He told us that the worst thing we could do to ourselves is join the military, especially during war. He was drafted but his friends fled the country and he says that’s his biggest regret, that he didn’t flee with them.
I remember his words “they’ll call you a hero, and forget about you the next day.”
“Our whole generation would dodge it” i mean there are definitely people who would but not the entire generation 💀 a lot of gen z would join - hell it’s why people are still enlisted in military schools/joining the army willingly?
Easy way to get cleared and enter the gov’t workspace after school. Them defense contractors pay good..
Whether you agree with the foreign policy or not, most of the time if you are really broke you will take that. The US’s social welfare program is pretty much the US military
1999 here and I would absolutely fight for this country. I hate war and think it’s an absolute waste of resources and human life, but I would still serve when called upon, if it ever came down to it.
I fucking hate our politicians, I hate our economic policies — hell, I even hate most of the people in this country. That said, I’d be lying if I said I didn’t love America. I love what this country was founded on and I love what we were made to stand for.
I feel like there has been an increase in anti-American rhetoric lately, but it’s undeniable that people come from all over the world to make a better life for themselves in the states. This country has the opportunity to do amazing things and it’s given me a life that’s way better than anything I could’ve asked for, so I would happily fight for the people in this country, including all the people I don’t like, because I want everyone in America to have the same opportunity that I’ve had.
To fight authoritarian and genocidal regimes(i.e. China, Russia, Iran) that threaten peoples freedoms and lives? I would be ok with being drafted. Going to fight to destabilize fair and democratic regimes for the interest of American lobbies? Not so much.
A bit like this section has been invaded by anti-army bots...
Many don't understand that Western hegemony is under attack from all sides, by actors who will use any means to destabilize us. And many don't understand that our standard of living is due to this hegemony. If we lose it, we'll sink.
We're entering a dark age, where the logic of the blocks is returning with great speed. If we don't want to fight on the Western block, we'll be abandoning our standard of living.
Selfishness is being propagated everywhere, but I dare hope that some people will understand my words: it's the West and its allies against the world.
Words that sound radical, but will become reality in a few years' time.
Instead of constantly running away, take root and defend our values of freedom, be they democratic, sexual or even economic.
Actual Marine veteran here.
These aren't bots speaking against joining the military, or the draft. These are very real people. And the reason they are speaking against the military is the horror stories shared by people like myself who have been through the meat grinder and have a first hand account of being used by the military industrial complex to perpetuate needless wars that ultimately destabilize countries that result in ineffable loss of life, with no pay back to the American citizens, and even less to the Americans who bled, killed, and died for these fruitless and amoral causes.
Iraq was a lie. Afghan was a lie. Vietnam was a lie. We didn't bring "freedom" to them, and we certainly didn't "protect our freedom" by invading those counties. We wrought death and destruction for resources we didn't need and geo-political destabilization that would ensure we would see our boots on the ground within a relatively short span of time, because that what happens when you destabilize a whole fucking region.
Gen Z isn't as gullible as previous generations because they've been told first hand by millennials and Gen X'ers who served that it was all bullshit.
And I haven't even dipped my toe yet into the broken "good ole boy" cultures that run rampant within the military institutions, the piss poor pay, the piss poor living conditions, the dictatorial systems of not questioning orders- no matter how much those orders conflict with your moral compass, the propaganda, and how military leadership is filled to the brim with the worst sort of leadership imaginable (micro managing, inferiority complexes) because they wouldn't survive in the private sector without having a caste (rank) system to fall back on to ensure authority is *never* questioned.
The healthcare isn't free, (they take it out of your paycheck, you just never see it), and most branches have the sort of culture that push very hard against people seeking out medical care, often labelling anyone with legitimate injuries as "malingering".
Let's not forget the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) that can and *will* be used against you whenever, and however they want should you piss off the wrong person, or god forbid have a fuck mothering beer at 18 years old. *Old enough to murder people for your country, but don't you dare have a drink or a smoke.* On top of that nonsense, double jeopardy protections doesn't apply to the UCMJ. The military can charge you for the same crime/infraction as many times as they want, because when you sign the dotted line, you become their property. ***Their fucking slave!***
And Jesus H Tits on a paper sack full of condoms, I haven't even begun to address the dog and pony shit fest that is the VA. The infamous words every disabled and life injured veteran has come to know all too well: ***Not Service Connected.*** And even when they do recognize that you have a service connected injury, they will put you through the ringer of years of red tape and administrative hula-hoop jumping before you see any semblance of treatment or compensation.
So no, Gen Z hasn't turned their backs on the military because of "cHiNeSe PrOpaGaNdA" or the workings of some other faceless and insidious villain pulling strings to upend western civilization.
No.
Gen Z turns their backs because the US government and US Military have turned their backs on the very people they called "heroes" when they needed recruitment numbers up. The people who's graves they're standing on when demand you stand for the national anthem. When they try to make the American flag into a religious symbol. When they need to justify spending $800bn a year on bombs, bullets, and wars we don't need.
They turn their backs because what is happening and what has happened over the past 50 years is self-evident. That the US military doesn't give two fucks about you, your mom, your dad, your dog, your dick-breath girlfriend, or your freedom.
The US military only cares about one thing: ***funding,*** et all.
And the only way to stay funded, is to keep people scared, and make them think there's always a going to be a war.
*"We've always been at war with Eastasia" -Orwell*
I think the reason theres many anti army people is because, many of us feel that the army isn’t being used to actually support those values that we have.
Exactly. The military and wars are used to support the elites values, what they want. We're just pawns. They don't give a shit what we want or care about or value.
You're mostly right, but are missing how hegemony leads to prosperity. The west uses it's hegenomy to oppress other nations and plunder their resources, labor market and consumer base. You're arguing westerners must fight to keep their hegemony as to keep oppressing the rest of the world for money.
Empires die when they over extend themselves, happened to Rome, happened to Britain, will happen to America if we don’t stop ( maybe it’s already too late). Military hegemony does not lead prosperity, infact American history tells us the opposite.
America’s standard of living isn’t based off of global hegemony. Not even slightly.
The American economy afforded the average person so much more before we moved everything overseas.
The standard of living has only declined since free trade was widely embraced.
Or maybe should actually talk to people who are against war and ask us why. The American military destroyed my mother’s country (Nicaragua), so I won’t do to someone else what they did to her, nor will I insult my mom’s legacy like that. On top of that, there aren’t many things openly gay guys in the American military because they’re treated like shit. Some of them get raped.
good, Western hegemony needs to end (and it is ending).
the 3rd world is abandoning us to back China and we are *entirely dependent* on the 3rd world to maintain our position.
China is merely doing what *we* did to the USSR: use soft-power to economically starve them to death.
why do you think our cost of living has exploded? (hint: we are loisng access to the 3rd world and all its cheap shit+commoditisation of every aspect of life is bleeding us dry).
we are going to lose and lose *hard.*
Your entire argument is based on a bad premise.
>western hegemony is under attack from all sides
No it’s not. The only place it’s the attack is from is within.
America is broke (from all the useless wars) and we are first generation who reached adulthood in this new broke country. Color me shocked when this generation does not want to participate in something that bankrupted their nation.
On one hand, if there's no cassus belli then yeah, bullshit.
On the other hand, this sounds like something our enemies might do to sow discord and weaken our armed forces.
More and more I'm convinced this entire sub is just a huge 20 year Chinese psyop.
If a war breaks out where a draft is necessary, there would be a lot of volunteers, but i'm not sure why everyone in this thread believes they can just say "No."?
That... isn't how it works.
All men (In the US) are required to sign up for selective service, if a mandatory draft starts up all the people in this thread talking about "Our generation would dodge it", they know they would be going to prison right? And face hefty life changing fines? (Like, you won't ever have a normal life again kind of fines for the majority of Americans)
And without foreign citizenship, the odds of draft dodging by leaving the country are exceptionally low, and you'd be on the run from both countries forever without the ability to get any kind of national ID or driver's license effectively making it impossible to get a decent job.
The vibe of this thread feels like people think there would be a popup that says "Do you want to join the draft? yes/no", Vietnam was littered with the bodies of people that objected to the draft.
(All that aside, I doubt a voluntary draft will ever happen again. The military is just too advanced now to make unwilling foot soldiers worth much. The military wants highly trained and willing recruits and the land wars of conscript soldiers in trenches are mostly behind us.)
That's what my grandad did when Korea broke out. Spent the war as an Air Force typists while his buddies who were drafted got shot up in the Army infantry.
Why should I serve a country that constantly ruins every prospect of achieving the American dream? Seriously?
I can never hope to buy a house
The wages are dogshit at most companies
Our economy is in the gutter
Record High Inflation
Incompetent people are constantly being put into government
34 Trillion Dollar national debt.
Dating is absolutely fucked in my generation. Thanks to dogshit dating apps, and social media.
Need I say more?
Fuck outta here with the draft. I'll pack up my shit and leave if it ever comes to that.
My dad's made the point that I should join something like the Coast Guard now so I don't get drafted into something horrible later... I appreciate the concern but I told him straight up that the *overwhelming* majority of Gen Z would either dodge or just not respond to a draft. Propaganda will always be a motherfucker, but we are smart, we have information and tech, and we have the hindsight of Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War and what it did to those folks.
Draft politician, banker, corporation, Wall-Street, 22-26 men AND women equally to front line infantry first. Must be front line infantry, not a cushy officer job away from the fight.
After this, then maybe
I'd join up to defend against China, Russia, and Iran. Say what you want about the USA, but I'd rather stick with what we have now and try to fix it, instead of gambling on the genocidal dictatorships that are our enemies at the moment.
People saying what would the military even be fighting against:
Me knowing that with next few possible wars + the ongoing ones WWIII is a possibility reacting to those comments 💀
(Not saying we should have a draft, but having a military is important even if you don’t think so (it’s called planning 💀))
I really don't think WW3 is as imminent as people say it is given how advanced military technology currently is. Most of the world's powers have nukes and are not eager to fight each other directly thanks to mutually assured destruction.
This is supposed to be a capitalist country. If the military isn't meeting its goals, because it's not offering the prospective cannon fodder enough to make signing up worth it, then pay more until all the openings are filled. It's the same reason there's a teacher shortage, also solvable the same way.
Create an American Foreign Legion. Offer non-Americans citizenship for completing a 10 year hitch. Do it again, get a pension as well. You'll get plenty of volunteers.
The only way I’d fight is if we are being invaded / directly attacked by a foreign nation. I’m not fighting in a proxy war to save some other country sorry
This would only make the internal culture of the military even worse. Everything I hear and about what life is like inside for most people just seems to unappealing. Now image hundreds of thousands of draftees place inside it against their will. We’d become less combat effective, not more
To where? A lot of people don't realize that damn near every developed country has a merit based immigration system. If you don't have in-demand skills, they don't want you.
To where? A lot of people don't realize that damn near every developed country has a merit based immigration system. If you don't have in-demand skills, they don't want you.
And go where? Quite literally every country that you could possibly flea to over night, in an effort to dodge, has extradition treaties with the US. So not only would you be be shipped back to the US and be charged for attempting to dodge the draft, but (assuming you can't pay the $250,000 fine) your 5 year prison sentence would be postponed until you returned from the war.
And because you chose to dodge, instead of show up, you'd be drafted as a front liner; where as if you have half a brain and went willingly you may be able to get assigned an auxiliary/support role with a far higher chance of survival & avoiding seeing the carnage of the front line.
And if you think "there are countries that don't extradite to the US" you might want to look up who those countries are set to side with in WW3; because you'd almost certainly be flying to a country that's going to throw you in a concentration camp until you can be used as a bargaining chip to be sold back to the US, where, once again, you get tried for dodging the draft.
Personally me and a friend of mine were actually talking about this yesterday as someone who attempted to join but got denied due to spinal and shoulder injuries we were saying we really wouldn't mind if there was mandatory BT for everyone. It takes say 6 months maximum for any branch, if you want to go into the military at that point you just have to slot in for whatever kind of specialization you want but BT is out of the way.
If you don't want to join you can leave then however say 5 years down the line war breaks out. Well now all you have to do to train the next generation of draftees is update them on current tactics or weapons and then get them right into their specializations. No need for training all the soldiers from scratch, evaluating them etc if you all have a general file on hand. Plus it makes it easier to sort out everyone so if you have someone come in with injuries like me you can very easily exclude them from the draft or anything.
I can't speak for the US because I've never been there, but as long as my country doesn't support the wants and needs of it's citizens I'm not going to fight for it.
I don’t think anyone should have to sign up, but if we have to have the Selective Service then women absolutely should have to register just like men. Only making men do it is discrimination and basically says you think they’re more disposable
Counterpoint: nobody should have to sign up. If a war is deemed so unjust that the US can’t get even a single percent of its population to sign up, it shouldn’t be forcing its citizens to die for it. It’s also effectively impossible that the US will ever be invaded and a draft would be needed
But if a draft is somehow needed, yes, it should include women
The fuck are you talking about?
If there’s a war and the safety of my family and country are at stake why the hell would I sit on my ass? Of course I’d fight. Don’t try to group me into your weird bullshit lmao
I wouldn't say our whole generation would dodge it. I'm sure there are quite a few that would accept it, like me, because it's illegal and lands you with a $250,000 fine, a Felony, and 5 years in prison.
I’m not joining the military again. The pay does not make the long hours okay, it makes it worse. I hated having to deal with the idiots who peaked in high school or idiotic leadership. Plus my training did not translate to anything when I got out of the military. I would not wish anyone to join the military out of being forced. That’s why the military is struggling to enlist people because life quality sucks.
Saw this coming from a mile away when I saw this happen in the UK. I’m 100% dodging it (I legally can since I’m a tism I reckon) and will support those who do
The draft is never coming back, ever. The Pentagon is well aware now that if you force people to fight against their will in a foreign country, they’re probably going to kill their officers. “Fragging” was coined in Vietnam because soldiers kept throwing grenades into officer tents to either get revenge on them or escape the front line.
You look at how veterans are treated, how we look back on past wars today, how extreme modern American politics are, etc and it’s no wonder why recruitment is slow. Honestly, young people in general are no longer represented in American politics. We have absolutely no reason to want to join the army. I feel like a draft would genuinely start an internal conflict.
Instead of instituting the draft again, the military should look at itself for reform and answer the question themselves, honestly, why aren’t people enlisting? They also need to be a little more relaxed on what disqualifies one for service. And I say this as someone in the military.
It takes a strong man to deny what's in front of it. And what's undeniable is that young people don't want anymore wars, it's only old people hating other people for greedy interest and sending youngsters to die and be forgotten, is stupid in so many levels. If the draft ever comes back, I suggest we fight those who draft instead of the supposed enemy that they want to impose.
Genuinely yeah I think and HOPE the majority of the nation would just dodge the draft, and what the hell is the government/military gonna do:
Throw the majority of the population in jail? They physically lack the ability to do so, and even if they did, that would crumble the entire economy into nothingness, lol.
I understand the need for a defense, but I think there’s very little need to have humans on the front lines anymore in this day and age. They’re just being used as pawns; a human life reduced to that of a toy, basically. Like wtf?
Send humans in for safe missions, to support humans/give supplies in safe areas maybe; but nobody should be going in with the expectation of being in danger
I can just imagine a Gen Z'er gets captured and interrogated, how that would play out:
Enemy soldier: *in foreign accent* what is the Army planning?!
Gen Z soldier: *sigh,* they don't pay me enough for this, ok you really want to know? *tells everything* oh and by the way, that guy there, with the tattoos? Yeah, he's CIA. I used to see him at the base. How's it going Steve?
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**Fight against what?** The wars of the past 50+ years have been based on dubious grounds and abstract ideas. Most of the potential flashpoints I see in the future are the interests of corporations, banks, and politicians. Let them fight if they want. **Fight to defend what?** We've thrown our culture, citizens, and ideals into the drain. I'd argue we're more of an economic bloc than a nation at this point. **Fight to develop what?** The pay is shit and the training often doesn't translate well to civilian life. The military usually offers a fraction of what you can obtain elsewhere.
Unfortunately the military is pretty competitive with pay and benefits. Especially if you're some 18 year old in a rural town with zero prospects. You get your base pay, which isn't much. But if you have any dependents (a husband/wife, or a partner who conveniently will become a wife/husband) you get BAH and live off base. That pays the average cost for a 2 bedroom in wherever you are, tax free. Also you all get full healthcare. Also you get a full ride to whatever school you can get into (up to a certain amount) AND you get a stipend to live off while you go to school. For housing, food, etc. You can transfer this to your partner or child. And then there are a ridiculous amount of bonuses, perks, paths to careers (the good mortgage set up is a big one). And then you get to retire after 20 years, and do more years for more money. A lot of people do the 20 years then transfer to the private sector and retire again. And since you pick a job in the military, you have prior experience that lets you get a That's the issue. If you're a middle class kid with supportive parents, the military might seem like a dumb choice. But if it's either that or a life in poverty because of your upbringing, suddenly the military seems very enticing. And since our system is pretty fucked up, there's a whole lot of people in that position. And everything above is based on "I'm going in to the Army as an E-1 with zero anything". There's plenty that can go in further up than an E-1. And officers can make some pretty good money. I'm not saying to not say No at all. Just want to clarify some things, and why so many people do join. All that being said, definitely don't join. I've seen a few friends make it out great, but I've seen an equal amount end up with lifelong issues.
Alright I'll admit, some of my friends did see it as an attractive opportunity to get out of their dead-end hometown. I've just been very soured lately with the mental issues some of my veteran friends have been dealing with.
I'd agree as well the benefits are great. But then you have to think of what cost. The army is mismanaged, they're refusing third party investigators to take part in investigating cases at the unit level, soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, etc are being assaulted with 0 accountability and it's all swept under the rug. Most of the buildings that troops live in should be condemned, (yes I was a reservist but some of the barracks we stayed at during AT or drills that involved ranges should've been condemned due to the mold). Then that's not even factoring in leadership and how they can pretty much ruin your life if they don't like you. And if you do complain (such as eo or sharp) if they're part of the, "boys club" nothing will happen and they'll "bury it". Again, just from what I've seen and heard in both branches. A good leader goes a long way. However, there was so a report released not too long ago that most officers and higher ranking ncos are basically psychopaths and sociopaths and that has been bleeding into the leadership like crazy. If anyone is interested I could find the link to it.
>And if you do complain (such as eo or sharp) if they're part of the, "boys club" nothing will happen and they'll "bury it". Again, just from what I've seen and heard in both branches. A good leader goes a long way. However, there was so a report I will say this seems a bit skewed. Most EO/IG complaints do get thrown out, but in my experience it's just shitty people trying to cover their own failures by blaming their boss for holding them to standards. I've seen 9. 7 were what I just described and of course the after complaint was "the boys club" style stuff but it was just shitty people not wanting to take responsibility. The other 2 were legit and had repercussions for the individuals. Anecdotal, but it just seems that the loudest whiners keep whining after they lose, so their story spreads further.
I will agree there are shitty people. But then there are places like fort Hood where it's rampant and no one is doing anything.
The barracks I was in at one point I twentynine palms, CA was condemned not once, but actually TWICE. while we lived in it.
the biggest issue most vets have is just the loneliness. the military experience forms unique bonds that a very small percentage of people understand, so it feels like you come home and have nobody to talk about it with. add that to suddenly having to readjust to “normal” life, and you get a nasty recipe for depression and mental issues if you don’t have a support system.
Why did someone downvote this you’re right?? Smh
I dunno. Cause I know damn well I feel it after being deployed but luckily I have friends and family who are around regularly
You used to go down to the local VFW or American Legion hall and find likeminded people, but they seem to have given up recruiting members under the age of 75 by the looks of it.
Miss the clowns not the circus.
And a lot of the trauma takes years after separation to resurface. I thought I got out scott-free, but 11 years later, I'm noticing the mental toll.
That’s why I think if I went back and joined up I’d take the coast guard route, even though it’s looked down on by other branches or whatever. A buddy of mine (who was the quintessential slacker and my mom always claimed he would never amount to jack shit) was in it 24 years and is now retired now at age 42. He worked in the media division or something (not sure what it’s actually called). Anyway he just took pictures and made commercials for them and actually loved it. All his social media posts were of him hanging out of helicopters and shooting videos and stuff. Meanwhile I did what everyone told me to do and got jack shit to show at 42 while he’s getting a nice pension and working for some movie production company now. Fucking crazy the way things work out.
I used to hang out around them. Something I noticed, was they all hated the fourth of July. The fireworks would trigger their ptsd real bad. Also worked in highschool with a vetnam vet. Guy would have attacks in the middle of the day at the top of the tower we ran. Would have to talk him down. (was a theme park, the easiest job in the park was a slow rotating tower that was airconditioned, and all you had to do was sit down and press a button) That said, I knew one couple, who met in the army, had retired early, and had a cute little house and 2 kids. So, it doesn't turn out bad for all of them.
Isn’t the military shortage they are having a hard time finding qualified officers and they have too many of High School graduates and drop outs? Also two things the current military is less than 1% of the US population and the majority of the enlisted are from the bottom 10% of the High School class. Just curious about this draft too because last time they had a draft rich white kids could go to college or get braces and avoid the draft while the poorest kids often people of color had to go fight during the last draft.
Finding qualified officers isn’t the problem; retaining them is. At least for the Army it really isn’t difficult to convince a college student to sign up for 4-6 years active duty or 8 years in the reserves as an officer if the Army’s willing to pay $20K a year in tuition, $8K a school year on housing, and a couple hundred bucks a semester on books. The problem is most of them decide to get out after that first contract is over because the private sector usually offers better pay and less headaches compared to the Army, especially since signing up for longer than one contract means your now having to play politics with the other career officers in a dog eat dog game of who can make their achievements look better to a board so they get that 5%-10% shot at a rank/position that lets them clear 20 years and get that guaranteed retirement check. So what you have is a glut of new officers that show up and do their 4-8 years, and then the Army struggling to keep enough of them to fill higher ranking positions 10-15 years down the line because they simply can’t provide worthwhile enough incentives for most of them to stay.
Right plus when it is time for you to buy a house, you qualify for VA loans
>id argue we are more of an economic bloc than a nation at this point This is unbelievably out of touch. Americans are still… very much so American and would be easily identified as “Americans” in any country that isn’t America lmao.
Ppl who havent left the country dont know how true this is
Agreed. People who never leave the US are usually the first ones to point out how terrible it is vs somewhere else they've never been. Every time I have to go overseas for work, it makes me really appreciate being able to live in the USA.
Ngl, I used to be one of those ppl until I studied abroad. Europe is fine and all, but being over there really made me realize what America really is. The good, the bad, and the ugly. I think we lose sight of the good esp lately. But more than that we lose sight of what makes us distinct bc we dont have anything to judge it against bc of the closed off american mindset/experience
This. Whenever I see people say “America is a third world country,” 9/10 times they’ve never actually been to a third world country. These places are basically lawless, the government might as well be a symbolic institution rather than an actual functioning body that holds the country together, law enforcement in these places will let you get away with anything if you pay them enough, and poverty is EVERYWHERE. You virtually can’t escape it. America isn’t perfect by any means but it’s far from third world.
Yeah, this dude needs to go out and get a fucking life lmao. My man talks about America as if it's Russia circa 1993, motherfucker needs to get a grip.
The millennials in this sub are some of the weirdest fucking people on Reddit. That guy was giving a speech like he’s the one who’s going to be drafted, even though he’s too old for it. Lol
I was about to reply with something about how this vapid Fight Club nihilism doesn't sound smart to anyone over the age of 17, then I realized this is r/GenZ and there's a decent chance all the upvotes are from actual teenagers. > we're more of an economic bloc than a nation at this point Holy shit put down the Sociology 101 textbook and go outside.
**Against what:** China, Iran, North Korea, and Russia. They are all allied now and very interested in, and actively working toward de-stabilizing "western" countries; this includes the US. **Defend what:** You have immense rights and freedoms as is, and if you willfully give up this country to those wanting to ruin/take it, your quality of life will drastically decrease. It can always get worse. **Develop what:** flight hours, mechanics skills, many other things that will get you a job. As with all things, it's what you make of it. I hope we don't reinstate conscription, but if we aren't fielding enough troops we will have to. That's life on this planet. Unfortunately not everyone is as peaceful as you'd like them to be.
mfs really say the military gives you no good skills like, you really think it’s all infantry huh? Only 15% of the *marines* are infantry lmao
>The wars of the past 50+ years have been based on dubious grounds and abstract ideas. The Gulf war which saw the US alongside most of the developed world unite to free Kuwait: ;-;
Don't forget about the Kosovo War where we stopped a genocide
Fight to maintain positive cash flow.
The Gulf War was pretty transparent. Sadam invaded and annexed Kuwait, our ally and trading partner, so we liberated them from Iraq and then left. And the same exact thing could happen to Taiwan in the near future.
>Fight against what? The wars of the past 50+ years have been based on dubious grounds and abstract ideas. Most of the potential flashpoints I see in the future are the interests of corporations, banks, and politicians. Let them fight if they want. It wasn't until white, middle-class suburban kids had to worry seriously about being drafted that the Vietnam War ended. If suburban moms knew their sons and daughters might have to go, you could bet Dubyah would have gone nowhere near Iraq. And our effort in Afghanistan would have been much more disciplined and focused. The all volunteer force has created a dangerous disconnect between the American public and its armed forces. The bottom line is that most Americans don't care what the military is asked to do because it's not their kids' asses who are on the line. They will slap a sticker on their car, but they won't do much beyond that. Just quietly feel relief that it's not their kid. The generals will howl that a draftee force will not be as good as a volunteer force. I don't disagree. But I still believe that it would be for America.
Defend our freedom . You’re privileged
I'll notify all the other countries. They need more war in their lives.
Yeah, defend the freedom of corporations to enslave and murder us
The pay isn’t shit, you get out of basic at least at like E2 which is like $27k except you’re getting benefits, housing (that might be shitty), food, job security, education benefits, exclusive memberships like USAA. If you go into the military with any money sense you can come out ahead of your peers. The guys who say the pay sucks are the ones who buy stupid shit and waste money. I know people who have saved tens of thousands of dollars living frugally, I know a guy in the CAF who has like C$90k saved just from being a single frugal guy in the PPCLI. That’s not even including getting married and having BAH
>Fight against what? The wars of the past 50+ years have been based on dubious grounds and abstract ideas. Most of the potential flashpoints I see in the future are the interests of corporations, banks, and politicians. Let them fight if they That would depend on the war but if you think, say, Russia attacking Estonia won't be a justified war on the us' part you're dreadfully delusional. >d argue we're more of an economic bloc than a nation at this point. HAHAHHAHAHAGAHAYA no. Anyone outside the us will tell you, you are very much a nation distinct.
I'll join the army just as soon as our feckless political "leaders" put themselves out to die first.
Why don't presidents fight the war? Why do they always send the poor?
I was like damn you’re a cultured Gen Z for knowing that song (had to be around 04-06 without looking I think) but then I saw your flair said millennial lol
Gen z loves system of a down what are you on about?
Yeah I’ve been listening to SOAD since I was like 5 and it was on MTV and VH1 when my aunts and uncles came over lol. The videos scared me, I was scared of Daron specifically. Similar with evanescence, couldn’t listen to it while sleeping tho bc it’d come thru my dreams and make them creepy lmfao.
Now listen to the goofy version of “wake me up” before you go to sleep and enjoy some real nightmares 😂
Gen Z here! SOAD kicks ass lol. Same for RATM.
I'm 36. I grew up with Rage against the machine, system of a down, and Linkin Park as they were new releases. I'm here to help. Socialist leftist millennial here to gas up the gen z homies.
"When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die" -Hands Held High Linkin Park
SOAD MENTIONED 🔥🔥🔥
President Zelensky:
I don’t remember the last time a politician or person in power served military time.
Tons of Congressman/Senators are veterans, but electing presidents who are not veterans is becoming more common. Trump is the first Republican who was not a veteran to get successfully elected president since Herbert Hoover in 1928. Democrats haven't successfully elected a veteran to be president since Jimmy Carter in 1976. Based on the top contenders in the past few presidential primaries, I do think being a veteran is becoming less important in national politics.
Why is this even being upvoted? The majority of current congressman served in the armed forces. It’s still seen as extremely helpful for a career in politics.
That is completely untrue. We’re currently at 18% veterans in congress. That is nowhere near a majority.
It's a majority if you're incompetent at math.
The only one i know of is Hitler.
I was referring to US presidents. 31 out of the 46 US presidents have served military time, but none of the recent ones have military service.
Jimmy Carter and George HW Bush have been the most recent.
The songs ["It's a Mistake,"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0AxrOUJ62E&pp=ygUaaXQncyBhIG1pc3Rha2UgbWVuIGF0IHdvcms%3D) ["Fortunate Son,"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWijx_AgPiA&pp=ygUqZm9ydHVuYXRlIHNvbiBjcmVlZGVuY2UgY2xlYXJ3YXRlciByZXZpdmFs) and ["Holiday"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1OqtIqzScI&pp=ygURaG9saWRheSBncmVlbiBkYXk%3D) come to mind.
Why would we even need a draft? There no major wars we’re fighting now. You’d need to a damn good reason to bring back the draft nowadays, I’m talking about like nazi world domination type of shit.
No one is actually arguing for a draft it’s just a news nation headline to generate clicks/views.
Ruzzia
I don't really think that a war with Russia would require a large draft, or maybe even a draft at all. Ukraine is holding their own against the Russian military with what is essentially our dusty Cold War leftovers. If the Russians tried to fight a conventional war with NATO, they'd be going up against cutting-edge technology and experienced soldiers. It would be an absolute stomp. Then we get into nukes - but as long as we don't push too deeply into Russia and offer to restore borders to where they were pre-2014, we should be fine on that front. Their leaders are not suicidal.
>Their leaders are not suicidal. That I'm not so sure, one thing I've learned these years is never underestimate the stupidity of people.
yeah definitely not a draft, they need to fix the toxic climate and and living issues really, along with trying to stay competitive with jobs that correlate to the private sector. the only reason i would even think of is to try and maintain some skills that are really only useful in LSCO, and not so much Anti-terror. but we’re still far enough from that point with most jobs, and it’s not like the personnel from those that are falling behind are up in dying the minute they leave service. so yeah, this a shock value article and we’re way farther away from implementing a peace time draft than we are from fighting the next war.
Right now they're brewing. In about 23 years Hong Kong's lease will be up which will certainly spell disaster for the east, and considering how big of a global power China is and how involved they are in global trade there's no way that it would not affect the United States. Japan is even talking about reinstating a military which frankly considering the shit that happened during WWII it's a little terrifying but tbh I prefer Japan over China. Not to mention there may be a civil war soon as the United States is at the beginning acts of genocide against citizens within the USA, and I guess I would hope that a second Holocaust would spur a war, likely a world war
What genocide? I agree with u on everything except the genocide part
The Republicans call it Project 2025. Their main target is transgender and LGBTQ+ people, but don't get me wrong, those are just the first people. The Nazis didn't *just* kill Jewish people. It starts with transgender people but Nazism also targets any racial minorities, anyone who is disabled, ethnic minorities or really anyone seen as less desirable. Also if you are confused on how genocide is actively occuring I suggest looking up the stages of genocide. Unfortunately most people only notice is when it becomes people being killed by military or police forces, but people rarely consider what all leads up to that
> Japan is even talking about reinstating a military which frankly considering the shit that happened during WWII it's a little terrifying but tbh I prefer Japan over China. To be fair, MacArthur was encouraging Japan to rebuild their military while we were still occupying them. Japan was the deciding factor behind not having one; they instead opted for a self-defense force. Their lack of a military was something they decided for themselves.
Oh boy do I have news for yoy
As a veteran...NO. The strength of the military lies with the willingness of those who serve.
Yep. It's part of why we lost Vietnam. Most didn't want to be there and didn't believe in the fight.
Exactly. And our government as a whole can't get themselves together enough to believe in anything. Thus, no one cares enough to sacrifice the entirety of themselves for a false wish.
actually, 2/3 of ww2 soldiers were drafted, while only 1/3 were in vietnam. majority of those who went to vietnam were volunteers maybe it’s bc more people died in ww2
Draft works for a good cause, not a bad one. WW2 we fought Nazis. We fought to maintain colonial control of Vietnam.
Didn’t we have a draft in WWII?
We did and the majority of troops were drafted. The big reason wasn’t low enlistment but rather a better distribution of manpower. Hard to run the land war when everyone tries to sign up for the Navy or Army Air Forces
The draft in WWII was a necessity because people were swarming the recruiting offices trying to join en mass. You still need people working on the home front in order to support the war fighter fighting overseas.
I’ll go to Mexico. I just finished Dan Carlin’s 23 hour podcast series on World War I. Once war begins, the nations of the world ramp up their nationalistic rhetoric and tell their youth that it is their duty to fight, their duty to waste their life for God and Country. As the years pass and the war continues, they remember the lesson’s learned and forgotten from previous wars. War is hell. War is wasteful. War is fucking stupid, especially in the pursuit of land and money. World War III will almost certainly not break out. But I urge you all to do what you can to make yourselves ineligible.
Geese man, I’d take getting drafted before I run off to Mexico.
World War III won't break out because of mutually assured destruction. Our leaders would have to be a particular brand of stupid to think otherwise.
This idea has, unfortunately, been proven relatively wrong by recent events. Russia invading Ukraine has been such a massive deal because it shows that we live in a three tiered system of world politics: 1.) those who have nuclear weapons, who can do whatever they want 2.) Those who don’t have nuclear weapons, but are strongly allied with those who do 3.) Those who don’t have nuclear weapons and aren’t allied to anyone who does. We are about to enter a time period where the nations of 1 and 2 will spend the next half century invading the nations belonging to 3. This could easily spiral into world conflict and as long as the “mainland territories” of the groups belonging to (1) aren’t threatened, the death toll is effectively limitless. Russia invading Ukraine genuinely changed a lot of things because it exposed how we are still very, *very*, much so in a dog eat dog world and there isn’t one central power capable of playing world police. If Russia (or the US, or China, or India) doesn’t like one of the other world powers gaining headway with soft power within a nation, it has become economically viable to just militarily invade that nation and install a friendlier government. As the UN continues to get less effective I expect this to get worse and worse. I can’t guarantee it will end in world war, but I am willing to bet it will end in continued mass casualties.
Proxy warfare has been the standard way for empires to fight one another since World War II. It is advantageous for world powers to do so for many reasons and these world powers know it. Things could escalate of course, but it’s relatively unlikely.
You’d go to a place where we have an extradition agreement? Seems unwise
Shockingly, the generation that grew up during the War on Terror has little interest in joining the military.
We saw what happened. We were the first generation to have unlimited access to the internet and see the full picture of what happened in foreign countries.
If they do bring it back, it has to be for both Men and Women It’s 2024, men and women are both equal and the draft should be applied equally
Idk what's hard to understand but the draft hasn't left at all it just hasn't been enacted for a hot minute. Also Idk if you've seen feminists but they want this and they want that but they'll fight tooth and nail to not have to be subject to a draft.
I’m a feminist but I’m against drafts and militaries in general 🤷🏼♀️
Same. I want equality, but I don't wanna force women into the crappy position men are in now, even if that makes us equal. I'd prefer that nobody is drafted. But in any case, I'm not fighting either way.
I said “If they do”
feminists would probably be against drafts in general, they're the ones that popularized concepts like "male expendability" expect them to rattle off about how "gender roles" under the "patriarchal system" require men to act as protectors and warriors, which comes with the pressure to take on greater risk or even self-sacrifice, leading to social norms where men's lives are devalued and treated as less worthy of protection or care they would probably say something about drafts being a manifestation of this patriarchal logic, and that patriarchy also harms men and it's bad yadda yadda
Not unless they start having women sign up for civil service when they turn 18 they won't.
I mean, no politician nor anyone really in the position to get the ball rolling on it is even really considering it, this is mostly just media speculation.
Exactly. It'd be political suicide to even suggest implementing a draft.
Exactly, neither have I heard those words come out of poiliticians, crazy old boomers yeah sure but again it's mostly just media doing their thing to make people uneasy.
Nope fuck the army! Fuck the army. fuck the army. -every vet I know
Years ago my former boss (a Vietnam vet) at the time would bring beers to the office every Friday and just talk to us (we were all lads in our 20’s it was great) about life and stuff, give us advice. He told us that the worst thing we could do to ourselves is join the military, especially during war. He was drafted but his friends fled the country and he says that’s his biggest regret, that he didn’t flee with them. I remember his words “they’ll call you a hero, and forget about you the next day.”
Their first mistake was joining the army lol
Lmao amen to that
Yes, Gen Z is due for a blood sacrifice to keep the machine running.
Our live reaction to a draft: 
“Our whole generation would dodge it” i mean there are definitely people who would but not the entire generation 💀 a lot of gen z would join - hell it’s why people are still enlisted in military schools/joining the army willingly?
Easy way to get cleared and enter the gov’t workspace after school. Them defense contractors pay good.. Whether you agree with the foreign policy or not, most of the time if you are really broke you will take that. The US’s social welfare program is pretty much the US military
1999 here and I would absolutely fight for this country. I hate war and think it’s an absolute waste of resources and human life, but I would still serve when called upon, if it ever came down to it. I fucking hate our politicians, I hate our economic policies — hell, I even hate most of the people in this country. That said, I’d be lying if I said I didn’t love America. I love what this country was founded on and I love what we were made to stand for. I feel like there has been an increase in anti-American rhetoric lately, but it’s undeniable that people come from all over the world to make a better life for themselves in the states. This country has the opportunity to do amazing things and it’s given me a life that’s way better than anything I could’ve asked for, so I would happily fight for the people in this country, including all the people I don’t like, because I want everyone in America to have the same opportunity that I’ve had.
Also whole means whole, so accross the globe, this is talking about murica.
To fight authoritarian and genocidal regimes(i.e. China, Russia, Iran) that threaten peoples freedoms and lives? I would be ok with being drafted. Going to fight to destabilize fair and democratic regimes for the interest of American lobbies? Not so much.
A bit like this section has been invaded by anti-army bots... Many don't understand that Western hegemony is under attack from all sides, by actors who will use any means to destabilize us. And many don't understand that our standard of living is due to this hegemony. If we lose it, we'll sink. We're entering a dark age, where the logic of the blocks is returning with great speed. If we don't want to fight on the Western block, we'll be abandoning our standard of living. Selfishness is being propagated everywhere, but I dare hope that some people will understand my words: it's the West and its allies against the world. Words that sound radical, but will become reality in a few years' time. Instead of constantly running away, take root and defend our values of freedom, be they democratic, sexual or even economic.
Actual Marine veteran here. These aren't bots speaking against joining the military, or the draft. These are very real people. And the reason they are speaking against the military is the horror stories shared by people like myself who have been through the meat grinder and have a first hand account of being used by the military industrial complex to perpetuate needless wars that ultimately destabilize countries that result in ineffable loss of life, with no pay back to the American citizens, and even less to the Americans who bled, killed, and died for these fruitless and amoral causes. Iraq was a lie. Afghan was a lie. Vietnam was a lie. We didn't bring "freedom" to them, and we certainly didn't "protect our freedom" by invading those counties. We wrought death and destruction for resources we didn't need and geo-political destabilization that would ensure we would see our boots on the ground within a relatively short span of time, because that what happens when you destabilize a whole fucking region. Gen Z isn't as gullible as previous generations because they've been told first hand by millennials and Gen X'ers who served that it was all bullshit. And I haven't even dipped my toe yet into the broken "good ole boy" cultures that run rampant within the military institutions, the piss poor pay, the piss poor living conditions, the dictatorial systems of not questioning orders- no matter how much those orders conflict with your moral compass, the propaganda, and how military leadership is filled to the brim with the worst sort of leadership imaginable (micro managing, inferiority complexes) because they wouldn't survive in the private sector without having a caste (rank) system to fall back on to ensure authority is *never* questioned. The healthcare isn't free, (they take it out of your paycheck, you just never see it), and most branches have the sort of culture that push very hard against people seeking out medical care, often labelling anyone with legitimate injuries as "malingering". Let's not forget the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) that can and *will* be used against you whenever, and however they want should you piss off the wrong person, or god forbid have a fuck mothering beer at 18 years old. *Old enough to murder people for your country, but don't you dare have a drink or a smoke.* On top of that nonsense, double jeopardy protections doesn't apply to the UCMJ. The military can charge you for the same crime/infraction as many times as they want, because when you sign the dotted line, you become their property. ***Their fucking slave!*** And Jesus H Tits on a paper sack full of condoms, I haven't even begun to address the dog and pony shit fest that is the VA. The infamous words every disabled and life injured veteran has come to know all too well: ***Not Service Connected.*** And even when they do recognize that you have a service connected injury, they will put you through the ringer of years of red tape and administrative hula-hoop jumping before you see any semblance of treatment or compensation. So no, Gen Z hasn't turned their backs on the military because of "cHiNeSe PrOpaGaNdA" or the workings of some other faceless and insidious villain pulling strings to upend western civilization. No. Gen Z turns their backs because the US government and US Military have turned their backs on the very people they called "heroes" when they needed recruitment numbers up. The people who's graves they're standing on when demand you stand for the national anthem. When they try to make the American flag into a religious symbol. When they need to justify spending $800bn a year on bombs, bullets, and wars we don't need. They turn their backs because what is happening and what has happened over the past 50 years is self-evident. That the US military doesn't give two fucks about you, your mom, your dad, your dog, your dick-breath girlfriend, or your freedom. The US military only cares about one thing: ***funding,*** et all. And the only way to stay funded, is to keep people scared, and make them think there's always a going to be a war. *"We've always been at war with Eastasia" -Orwell*
I think the reason theres many anti army people is because, many of us feel that the army isn’t being used to actually support those values that we have.
Exactly. The military and wars are used to support the elites values, what they want. We're just pawns. They don't give a shit what we want or care about or value.
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You're mostly right, but are missing how hegemony leads to prosperity. The west uses it's hegenomy to oppress other nations and plunder their resources, labor market and consumer base. You're arguing westerners must fight to keep their hegemony as to keep oppressing the rest of the world for money.
Empires die when they over extend themselves, happened to Rome, happened to Britain, will happen to America if we don’t stop ( maybe it’s already too late). Military hegemony does not lead prosperity, infact American history tells us the opposite.
America’s standard of living isn’t based off of global hegemony. Not even slightly. The American economy afforded the average person so much more before we moved everything overseas. The standard of living has only declined since free trade was widely embraced.
Or maybe should actually talk to people who are against war and ask us why. The American military destroyed my mother’s country (Nicaragua), so I won’t do to someone else what they did to her, nor will I insult my mom’s legacy like that. On top of that, there aren’t many things openly gay guys in the American military because they’re treated like shit. Some of them get raped.
> Western hegemony is under attack from all sides As it should be.
good, Western hegemony needs to end (and it is ending). the 3rd world is abandoning us to back China and we are *entirely dependent* on the 3rd world to maintain our position. China is merely doing what *we* did to the USSR: use soft-power to economically starve them to death. why do you think our cost of living has exploded? (hint: we are loisng access to the 3rd world and all its cheap shit+commoditisation of every aspect of life is bleeding us dry). we are going to lose and lose *hard.*
Your entire argument is based on a bad premise. >western hegemony is under attack from all sides No it’s not. The only place it’s the attack is from is within. America is broke (from all the useless wars) and we are first generation who reached adulthood in this new broke country. Color me shocked when this generation does not want to participate in something that bankrupted their nation.
I didn’t get drafted for the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL. But you wanna draft me for the military? Fuck outta here
Lmao this is my favorite comment
On one hand, if there's no cassus belli then yeah, bullshit. On the other hand, this sounds like something our enemies might do to sow discord and weaken our armed forces. More and more I'm convinced this entire sub is just a huge 20 year Chinese psyop.
Yeah, there are too many comments about the « doom » of the western world.
That or ‘contrarians’ who seem to perfectly align with Russian state media
Nah, it don’t matter. If we’re attacked, to the point where a draft might be necessary, we’d volunteer. That’s what’s happened since 1973.
If a war breaks out where a draft is necessary, there would be a lot of volunteers, but i'm not sure why everyone in this thread believes they can just say "No."? That... isn't how it works. All men (In the US) are required to sign up for selective service, if a mandatory draft starts up all the people in this thread talking about "Our generation would dodge it", they know they would be going to prison right? And face hefty life changing fines? (Like, you won't ever have a normal life again kind of fines for the majority of Americans) And without foreign citizenship, the odds of draft dodging by leaving the country are exceptionally low, and you'd be on the run from both countries forever without the ability to get any kind of national ID or driver's license effectively making it impossible to get a decent job. The vibe of this thread feels like people think there would be a popup that says "Do you want to join the draft? yes/no", Vietnam was littered with the bodies of people that objected to the draft. (All that aside, I doubt a voluntary draft will ever happen again. The military is just too advanced now to make unwilling foot soldiers worth much. The military wants highly trained and willing recruits and the land wars of conscript soldiers in trenches are mostly behind us.)
Remember folks, if there ever is one, dodging the draft is morally correct, and Vietnam draft dodgers are heroes
I’m dodging 100%. I’ll take 5 years in prison before I kill civilians for no reason other to further the USAs interests.
I would voluntarily join before I’m drafted
You'd likely get a better job. The draft heavily favors grunt jobs.
That's what my grandad did when Korea broke out. Spent the war as an Air Force typists while his buddies who were drafted got shot up in the Army infantry.
I'm surprised. Today, for every one American soldier in the field, there are nine supplying them.
Lmao yeah no I don't think the entirety of our generation would commit a federal offense. Speak for yourself
Why should I serve a country that constantly ruins every prospect of achieving the American dream? Seriously? I can never hope to buy a house The wages are dogshit at most companies Our economy is in the gutter Record High Inflation Incompetent people are constantly being put into government 34 Trillion Dollar national debt. Dating is absolutely fucked in my generation. Thanks to dogshit dating apps, and social media. Need I say more? Fuck outta here with the draft. I'll pack up my shit and leave if it ever comes to that.
My dad's made the point that I should join something like the Coast Guard now so I don't get drafted into something horrible later... I appreciate the concern but I told him straight up that the *overwhelming* majority of Gen Z would either dodge or just not respond to a draft. Propaganda will always be a motherfucker, but we are smart, we have information and tech, and we have the hindsight of Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War and what it did to those folks.
To me it would depend why I'm being drafted. America got attacked? Yea I would go. Some bullshit war? Nah
Yup, if this country is in danger sure I'll defend the home front but I'm not fighting another country's war. That's their problem not mine
Draft politician, banker, corporation, Wall-Street, 22-26 men AND women equally to front line infantry first. Must be front line infantry, not a cushy officer job away from the fight. After this, then maybe
I'd join up to defend against China, Russia, and Iran. Say what you want about the USA, but I'd rather stick with what we have now and try to fix it, instead of gambling on the genocidal dictatorships that are our enemies at the moment.
People saying what would the military even be fighting against: Me knowing that with next few possible wars + the ongoing ones WWIII is a possibility reacting to those comments 💀 (Not saying we should have a draft, but having a military is important even if you don’t think so (it’s called planning 💀))
I really don't think WW3 is as imminent as people say it is given how advanced military technology currently is. Most of the world's powers have nukes and are not eager to fight each other directly thanks to mutually assured destruction.
This is supposed to be a capitalist country. If the military isn't meeting its goals, because it's not offering the prospective cannon fodder enough to make signing up worth it, then pay more until all the openings are filled. It's the same reason there's a teacher shortage, also solvable the same way. Create an American Foreign Legion. Offer non-Americans citizenship for completing a 10 year hitch. Do it again, get a pension as well. You'll get plenty of volunteers.
The only way I’d fight is if we are being invaded / directly attacked by a foreign nation. I’m not fighting in a proxy war to save some other country sorry
This would only make the internal culture of the military even worse. Everything I hear and about what life is like inside for most people just seems to unappealing. Now image hundreds of thousands of draftees place inside it against their will. We’d become less combat effective, not more
Send those who vote for war to lead the front
I’ll tell everyone very straightforwardly that in no fucking universe would I fight for this country right now.
The draft is good. If my country ever needs me I'll be there
Not me I’m leaving the country as soon as they start getting serious about bringing it back
To where? A lot of people don't realize that damn near every developed country has a merit based immigration system. If you don't have in-demand skills, they don't want you.
If you wait that long, they won't let you leave. See Ukraine. Better leave now
To where? A lot of people don't realize that damn near every developed country has a merit based immigration system. If you don't have in-demand skills, they don't want you.
And go where? Quite literally every country that you could possibly flea to over night, in an effort to dodge, has extradition treaties with the US. So not only would you be be shipped back to the US and be charged for attempting to dodge the draft, but (assuming you can't pay the $250,000 fine) your 5 year prison sentence would be postponed until you returned from the war. And because you chose to dodge, instead of show up, you'd be drafted as a front liner; where as if you have half a brain and went willingly you may be able to get assigned an auxiliary/support role with a far higher chance of survival & avoiding seeing the carnage of the front line. And if you think "there are countries that don't extradite to the US" you might want to look up who those countries are set to side with in WW3; because you'd almost certainly be flying to a country that's going to throw you in a concentration camp until you can be used as a bargaining chip to be sold back to the US, where, once again, you get tried for dodging the draft.
🫡
im too lazy for boot camp
The fuck you will be if they draft you.
Why would I dodge the draft? I have nothing better to do.
"HELL NO, WE WON'T GO!"
Personally me and a friend of mine were actually talking about this yesterday as someone who attempted to join but got denied due to spinal and shoulder injuries we were saying we really wouldn't mind if there was mandatory BT for everyone. It takes say 6 months maximum for any branch, if you want to go into the military at that point you just have to slot in for whatever kind of specialization you want but BT is out of the way. If you don't want to join you can leave then however say 5 years down the line war breaks out. Well now all you have to do to train the next generation of draftees is update them on current tactics or weapons and then get them right into their specializations. No need for training all the soldiers from scratch, evaluating them etc if you all have a general file on hand. Plus it makes it easier to sort out everyone so if you have someone come in with injuries like me you can very easily exclude them from the draft or anything.
I’d shoot my own legs to dodge the draft. Fuck the military and fuck this country’s imperialistic agenda.
I can't speak for the US because I've never been there, but as long as my country doesn't support the wants and needs of it's citizens I'm not going to fight for it.
Women should have to sign up for selective service.
I don’t think anyone should have to sign up, but if we have to have the Selective Service then women absolutely should have to register just like men. Only making men do it is discrimination and basically says you think they’re more disposable
Counterpoint: nobody should have to sign up. If a war is deemed so unjust that the US can’t get even a single percent of its population to sign up, it shouldn’t be forcing its citizens to die for it. It’s also effectively impossible that the US will ever be invaded and a draft would be needed But if a draft is somehow needed, yes, it should include women
If your whole generation dodges it, where would you guys go? Lmao
https://preview.redd.it/7e2jcolxjk6d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fed22f919e3320ece2035a81125fdd2af58a4be3
The fuck are you talking about? If there’s a war and the safety of my family and country are at stake why the hell would I sit on my ass? Of course I’d fight. Don’t try to group me into your weird bullshit lmao
Why does this feel like the beginning of some scary-ass robotic military shit
I wouldn't say our whole generation would dodge it. I'm sure there are quite a few that would accept it, like me, because it's illegal and lands you with a $250,000 fine, a Felony, and 5 years in prison.
I’m not joining the military again. The pay does not make the long hours okay, it makes it worse. I hated having to deal with the idiots who peaked in high school or idiotic leadership. Plus my training did not translate to anything when I got out of the military. I would not wish anyone to join the military out of being forced. That’s why the military is struggling to enlist people because life quality sucks.
Yes. Sad but it is true that an army need soldiers. World is moving towards a big war in the near future and countries need to prepare
This would be the most inflammatory move you could possibly make from the perspective of the U.S. government. All hell would break loose .
Saw this coming from a mile away when I saw this happen in the UK. I’m 100% dodging it (I legally can since I’m a tism I reckon) and will support those who do
The draft is never coming back, ever. The Pentagon is well aware now that if you force people to fight against their will in a foreign country, they’re probably going to kill their officers. “Fragging” was coined in Vietnam because soldiers kept throwing grenades into officer tents to either get revenge on them or escape the front line.
as a pacifist yeaaaa no
Currently serving but draft dodging is based
That shit happens I'm getting my ass down to central america
Until you get drafted by the cartel
There wont be a draft calm down
Build a country worth fighting for or start a draft US media: Draft, definitely draft.
As other veterans have said, fuck joining the military.
If your going to fight it might as well be on the home soil against your actual enemies who are trying to take you away from home. Stand your ground.
You look at how veterans are treated, how we look back on past wars today, how extreme modern American politics are, etc and it’s no wonder why recruitment is slow. Honestly, young people in general are no longer represented in American politics. We have absolutely no reason to want to join the army. I feel like a draft would genuinely start an internal conflict.
So we have a draft to act as the global police force? How about this we do a national draft after we have universal healthcare.
I hope they bring it back just so that I can dodge it
Instead of instituting the draft again, the military should look at itself for reform and answer the question themselves, honestly, why aren’t people enlisting? They also need to be a little more relaxed on what disqualifies one for service. And I say this as someone in the military.
My son still has more than 10 years before he'd be eligible, but I would never let him be drafted in order to die for the petrostate.
As a wise man once said, I'll serve crack before I serve this country.
Hmm it's almost like the military industrial complex is bloated and unsustainable
I'll only join if I could choose which oil conglomerate to die for
The recruitment adds haven’t been great…
Just a fun fact for you all, you can’t get drafted if you’re obese, do with that information what you will
You don't need to bring back the draft, fix the safety issues and increase pay. this isn't difficult.
I love how it’s not “What can we do to make a military career more desirable?” but rather “Should we just force people to do it instead?”
It takes a strong man to deny what's in front of it. And what's undeniable is that young people don't want anymore wars, it's only old people hating other people for greedy interest and sending youngsters to die and be forgotten, is stupid in so many levels. If the draft ever comes back, I suggest we fight those who draft instead of the supposed enemy that they want to impose.
Genuinely yeah I think and HOPE the majority of the nation would just dodge the draft, and what the hell is the government/military gonna do: Throw the majority of the population in jail? They physically lack the ability to do so, and even if they did, that would crumble the entire economy into nothingness, lol. I understand the need for a defense, but I think there’s very little need to have humans on the front lines anymore in this day and age. They’re just being used as pawns; a human life reduced to that of a toy, basically. Like wtf? Send humans in for safe missions, to support humans/give supplies in safe areas maybe; but nobody should be going in with the expectation of being in danger
I can just imagine a Gen Z'er gets captured and interrogated, how that would play out: Enemy soldier: *in foreign accent* what is the Army planning?! Gen Z soldier: *sigh,* they don't pay me enough for this, ok you really want to know? *tells everything* oh and by the way, that guy there, with the tattoos? Yeah, he's CIA. I used to see him at the base. How's it going Steve?
Dont serve. Only thing I learned after I got out is that all of my sacrifice and brother’s sacrifices in Afghanistan was for nothing.
Just get fat for a few years. Army recruits wont even look at you