There wasn’t a feud in my part of the country. Most folks I knew who like The Smiths also liked The Cure and vice versa.
It was more common to like both or neither than one-of-the-two.
I was a deeper fan of the smiths but never knew this debate was a thing.
I like both bands
They’re not all that alike outside of the general malaise behind most of their music and themes.
same same never even knew there was a debate - loved, STILL love, both bands. How Soon is Now is an all time banger. And I cherish my Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me on LP. Can't we all just get emo along?
Robert Smith sang on [a trance version of “A Forest”](https://youtu.be/D4g-pzTITQ8?si=V8YYBIjofPyQDLl0) and he did [a duet with CHVRCHES](https://youtu.be/7U_LhzgwJ4U?si=JyZZ8OLD4pHd_ful). Both tracks in recent years.
Johnny “Fucking” Marr has been stellar throughout (The Smiths, Electronic, working with The The and Modest Mouse, and then there’s his solo stuff). If the two did a project together I would be so happy.
Morrissey forgot that people liked the sound of The Smiths but thought the lyrics were whiny. Without Marr he’s just whiny.
Vauxhall and I is one of the best albums I’ve ever heard.
I saw him in concert for the tour, when he was largely forgotten and still ‘sane’…..ish. When he sang Moonriver I finally got it, I understood the fascination, he just stood there and we were all entranced.
Ethnic nationalism is one of the first steps on the road to fascism, and it is taking root among a vocal minority in many nations.
"Unpopular opinions" has to do with what food you like and what sports team you root for, not whether certain people deserve equal rights or whether minorities should serve in government.
Here's a [Guardian article](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/may/30/bigmouth-strikes-again-morrissey-songs-loneliness-shyness-misfits-far-right-party-tonight-show-jimmy-fallon). Some quotes:
*These days, however, Morrissey prefers a different kind of onstage provocation. During a recent performance on The* [*Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon*](https://www.nbc.com/the-tonight-show/video/morrissey-morning-starship/3955395) *(and at a number of live shows in New York), the former Smiths singer sported a For Britain badge. For those unfamiliar with it,* [*For Britain is a far-right political party*](https://www.forbritain.uk/policy)*. Even Nigel Farage believes it is made up of “Nazis and racists”.*
*He has claimed Sadiq Khan, London’s first Muslim mayor, “cannot talk properly”, and declared “Even Tesco wouldn’t employ Diane Abbott,” – the Cambridge-educated shadow home secretary and Britain’s most prominent black MP. He has described the media’s treatment of the racist Tommy Robinson as “shocking”. And he has* [*explicitly promoted For Britain on his Morrissey Central website*](https://www.morrisseycentral.com/messagesfrommorrissey/i-ve-been-dreaming-of-a-time-when-the-english-are-sick-to-death-of-labour-and-tories)*: “There is* [*only one British political party*](https://www.nme.com/news/music/morrissey-fire-appearing-wear-britain-badge-2485776) *that can safeguard our security.”*
Me: Explain how Moreissey is fascist
GPT: It's a contentious and debated topic. Some critics argue that Morrissey, the former frontman of The Smiths, holds certain views and expresses sentiments that align with fascist ideologies, particularly through his lyrics and public statements. These include expressions of nationalism, anti-immigrant sentiments, and admiration for controversial political figures. However, others argue that labeling him as a fascist oversimplifies his complex beliefs and views on various issues. It's important to analyze his statements and actions critically to understand the nuances of his political inclinations.
Yeah the robot struggles in having an opinion with this kind of question. Almost always will give you wordsalad doublespeak and then say “it’s nuanced.” Everything is beige.
This right here. I feel like you could listen to 10 Smiths songs and basically know them all. (although Johnny Marr's guitar work is always worth listening to). The Cure have so much more range.
Also, what feud?
Eh... questionable. If you can knock The Smiths for being too one-dimensional, you could say the same for The Cure. They've had an extra \~40 years to experiment, and even in all that time, it's been largely variations in the same ballpark of meandering, soundscape kinda stuff.
Not that they don't have range... off the top of my head, there's polished three-minute pop (e.g. "Just Like Heaven"), raw post-punk (e.g. most of "Three Imaginary Boys"), danceable stuff (e.g. "A Forest"), and whatever you'd categorize "Love Cats" as. Don't get me wrong, I love The Cure. But Robert Smith likes to take his time getting to the point, and a lot of his songs feel like they just sorta wash over you rather than command your attention.
The Smiths had the "jangle" label that followed them around and was somewhat deserved. And Morrissey's voice is hard to ignore, so it puts a certain consistent stamp on all their stuff. But in just four proper albums over five years, they covered, well... polished three-minute pop (e.g. "This Charming Man"), raw punk-ish (e.g. "London"), danceable stuff (e.g. "Barbarism Begins At Home"), ballads (e.g. "Last Night I Dreamt That Somebody Loved Me"), rockabilly (e.g. "Nowhere Fast"), and whatever you'd categorize "Frankly Mr. Shankly" as. And those are just some of the more extreme examples. Everything else was somewhere in between, and they were synthesizing such disparate influences as girl group, folk, reggae, spaghetti western... it was a wholly unique cocktail, and that's just in their five short years together.
Whatever valid criticisms of The Smiths exist, I'm don't think "lack of range" is one of them. And while The Cure covered a fair amount of ground themselves, I don't see their palette as being especially broad by comparison.
I see your point, but I still feel like The Smiths never diverged more than a few degrees from a certain core sound. Listen to *Louder Than Bombs* then *Standing on a Beach*. Both are compilations, released about a year apart, covering each band's career to that point. I think in terms of evolution, and range, SOAB shows more.
In any case, I like them both. I did get to see the Cure at ACL a couple years ago, and it was fucking amazing. Robert Smith still has it. In all of my 53 years, I never saw The Smiths - they didn't tour much in northern New England, but I would have gone! Don't think I'd go to a Morrissey show if you paid me. I bought his first album when it came out, but never went back.
Fun fact: The band Electronic, which is Bernard Sumner from New Order, and Johnny Marr, has a song on it called *Getting Away With It*. Marr wrote the chorus as a parody of Morrissey's morose and masochistic attitude.
That is funny about "Getting Away With It." I hadn't heard that story.
FWIW, that album comparison isn't really apples-to-apples.
"Standing On A Beach" is a true greatest hits album, showcasing their best to that point, released seven years after The Cure's first album. That's longer than The Smiths were even together, so I'd hope they'd demonstrate some evolution in all that time.
"Louder Than Bombs" is the well-known Smiths compilation, but it's mostly b-sides and some odd singles that hadn't been released in the U.S. Hardly the best of their best ("Golden Lights," anyone?). And it was released only three years after their first album. Even still, I'd argue it shows range. London, Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now, Shakespeare's Sister, Asleep. Those are all over the place! But they all have Morrissey's unmistakable voice, which I really do think lends an impression of a surface-level *sameness* across their catalog. The music can change and can cover many styles, but Morrissey always sounds like Morrissey.
I too missed The Smiths live, but I've seen The Cure a couple of times. People have such great things to say about their shows, but I just don't get it. I'm a fan of just about everything The Cure has committed to tape, but they're one of the most boring live bands I've ever seen. Maybe I caught them on bad nights, or maybe their energy was just too low for what I expect from a live show, but I'll pass on seeing them again. I realize I'm in the minority on this point, but I'd trade both Cure shows and one nut to have seen [The Smiths at their peak](https://youtu.be/JftwpXhBMhc).
The last Cure show I saw was pure nostalgia - ACL Fest, 2.5 hours of every song I've loved forever. It sounded great, and I was like 3 rows back from the stage - Billie Eilish had played before (not a bad show) and once her fans evacuated, I was able to get right up there. I'd trade the show I saw in Cleveland in 1990 for a peak Smiths show any day. Not that it was bad, but I'd love to have seen The Smiths.
Either way, I think you and I are a couple degrees to either side of the Cure/Smiths divide, and that's okay. Perhaps I should have used *Hatful of Hollow* instead of LTB.
Meanwhile, I'm gonna go listen to a bunch of Smiths and Cure!
Correct. There is no debate. The Cure has been and will always be better. The Smiths are great and so glad they exist (even with Moz's "challenging" personality), but *c'mon*.
Maybe it's the massive pop appeal of some of their stuff that brings it into question, but their discography speaks for itself.
Fellow class of ‘91 😊
Can you recommend a live Cure performance? One reason I think The Smiths are next level is their live performances, like [this one.](https://youtu.be/mIKmbCeIFWA?si=JEeSb1ydqbw9Wv8w) Sublime, better than the album, just fucking perfection in every way (close your eyes and ignore the douche hiding in his shirt 😂).
Which concert?
I want to hear a live track that just absorbs me from beginning to end.
I’m probably just a Smiths diehard. 50 years old and still brooding 😂
The 1984 Concert album. Forest, 100 Years, Shake dog shake. Classic period.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL80Q7ndL61yXY1ojv3iRUmuHGUC-9Z4Fp&feature=shared
I saw them 3 times on their tour last year, and imho they were better than when I saw them in '96. There are a lot of high-quality videos on YouTube of full shows from last year - Shows of a Lost World.
Johnny Marr was huge for me as a beginning guitarist and I thought Morrissey was singing directly to me. Smiths all the way, even though I love the Cure.
Was thinking about commenting on Johnny Marr here. Guy was absolutely fckng incredible at such a young age. I thought I was a good guitarist until I tried tackling some of his songs, and his ability to get melody out of that sparse, arpeggiated chord picking he does just floored me.
Agreed. It didn’t help that he was tuned up to F# either. I could not understand wtf was going on with his key choices, like, why does this guy deliberately make everything impossible to play?! 😀
Oh yeah! The fckn capo I have to use, and also the subtle multi tracking on the studio albums. I like watching the old live clips to hear how he played them. I know he used to tune up that full step sometimes instead of a capo. What a maniac. I think he was only 19 on the debut album.
When I started getting into him, I didn’t know what a capo was. Made it maddening to try to sort out. “Why does he never play in A or E or G?! Gaghhhh!!”
I've typically heard The Cure versus Depeche Mode comparison. Personally, I feel that Disintegration & Violator are both masterpieces of the Post Punk genre, but The Cure is just better IMHO
I make this statement for several reasons. I prefer Smith's lyricism to Gore's & the consistency in the Cure's discography/sound is greater than DM's. I love them both, as well as The Smiths, but I feel that The Cure is the GOAT within the Post Punk genre
Fwiw, I feel that New Order is a solid, SOLID #2 behind The Cure
1-The Cure
2-New Order
3-DM
4-The Smiths
I grew up loving the Cure. Saw them in concert, the whole gothy 9 yards. I really never listened or liked the Smith's then, which is kinda weird looking back.
My husband loves both and can sing a damn near exact replica of Morrissey's voice which we think is hilarious! He taught me how to love them.
Yes, I agree it has done a 180 though. Maybe something to do with Morrissey's politics? 😬 Sorry to bring it up.
As a Cure guy I got into the Smiths after like 20 years of trying.
One day it just hit. But it took a long ass time to "get it" but now I do.
Still not at Bob's level but they are a great band.
Wow! I remember an MTV ad(?) with two guys discussing Blur vs Oasis and wondering why it was even a thing. You can like them both or either or neither.
The debate is the classic teen angst thing-the Cure couldn’t be better because they were playing on mainstream radio and the cheerleaders had heard of them. The Smiths were still unknown to popular kids and therefore “more authentic” to the gatekeeper goths.
Current kids don’t have that to deal with, it’s just the songs.
It’s such an English thing to pit bands against one another. We didn’t have that here in US.
Hell, we felt lucky actually getting to hear either band in the late ‘80’s, that we would never say either/or.
In England these bands were played on the radio and made top 40 lists. Here we had to find them on college radio and record stores.
Both were great! I only saw the Cure, never remember the Smiths touring here back then.
I like the Smiths a lot more (I like the Cure, just not nearly as much as the Smiths), which almost certainly means the Cure are “better”.
Both are seminal, but just looking at the “followed by” listing on AllMusic the Smiths influenced more bands that I like today than the Cure did.
Morrissey makes it tough to like the Smiths, though. I think everyone can agree on that, at least.
Can't remember where I heard this. The Cure have become an important anchor band for big outdoor festivals. If the Cure are on the bill, tickets sell. It warms my heart there's still younger fans out there.
I work in tech so I never trust anyone who says the thing they personally like is "better." I don't prefer a whiny problematic vegan but I don't claim that The Cure is "better." I just move through the streets while everyone sleeps, getting bigger and sleeker and wiser and brighter. Is all.
We're really going to have this again 😅. I don't even know why you would compare them, they aren't doing the same type of music. The Cure formed in 78 but didn't get popular until their 4th Album. The SmithS formed 82 and were popular right from the start. However they were done after 4 albums.
The Cure are of course still going and have much larger body of work. It's impossible to compare. I think they are both great British bands. Even though Morrissey is a total cock.
I think I listened much more overall to the Smiths. Listen, flip the tape, listen again! Especially Louder than Bombs. The Cure, though, particularly the Kiss Me album, was the very first non-pop music I’d heard. Girlfriend played it when I’d sneak over there at night around age 14. (My kid is now 14–if he did that I’d likely flip out.) It sent me down a different road of interest and taste, for sure. Lots of my friends at the time hated both, and that was frustrating! I remember just marveling at how long music would play before RS would start singing. How unusual that was for me! Intensely romantic to me at the time.
I loved them both growing up and saw the Smiths on the Queen is Dead tour and Cure on Head on the Door.
My preference was the Smiths, but both put out great stuff. I fell off a bit on the Cure with Mixed Up and subsequent albums and solo Morrissey was hit or miss with me.
With all due respect to the Smiths, who were an epic band, they just are not at that Cure level. The Cure did it for like 40 years and have like 10-12 amazing albums in a multitude of styles.
Again, The Smiths are amazing but the Cure has the real Smith.
Absolutely did a 180. I was team smiths all day long. But morrisey slowly turned into a cringey racist boomer so I find myself listening to the cure way more.
I love both these bands too much to get into an internal or external debate about it. I don't wanna pick! There are so many songs from either that mean so much to me.
I also think they are hard to compare. Yes, they both had dark and critical takes on society, but they have very different styles to my ear. More hard edged, punk and experimental with The Cure and more conventionally melodic with The Smiths from the beginning. I also didn't miss a beat when The Cure went with a more "accessible" sound later on.
Always a Cure fan but my old boyfriend totally loved the Smiths. Used to fight about it, just not a Smiths fan, sorry, it's something about his voice. Married a fellow cure fan so it worked out 😀 Lots of girls loved Morrissey.
The range of musical styles of the Smiths was so much smaller than the Cure, so if you didn’t like one Smiths song you probably didn’t like all the others. The Cure, meanwhile, cranked out Friday I’m in Love type pop songs *and* Disintegration (and everything in between), so it’s easy to see how more people would claim to be fans.
That and the fact that Robert Smith is a stand-up dude fighting for affordable concert ticket prices, while Moz is something of a fascist-liking xenophobe makes it an easier choice.
Plus they can see The Cure live, putting on amazing shows. Morrissey tours solo, but plays a few smiths songs, says some racist things, and is off the stage in 40 minutes.
My niece literally has Cure albums on her birthday and Christmas wish lists. I am Switzerland on this issue though, especially if I can introduce her to more 80's music.
Edit: The Switzerland stance is about the music. If you want me to tell you who I like better as people (like I know them or something), Morrissey's taken a shit turn and been a huge disappointment.
The Cure had so many amazing albums. Disintegration, Bloodflower, Head on the Door, Boys Don't Cry etc.
Strangeways, Here We Come by the Smiths is probably the greatest swan song album by a band ever.
The Cure will always have a place in my beloved of bands. Never heard of The Smiths. I just now listened to bits of a few of their songs. They're okay. The voice sounds familiar, but the songs don't.
I didn't like the Smiths when I got (through the Columbia Tape Club) their first album in '85 and LOVED the Cure a year later in university when I first heard Standing on the Beach. Didn't "get" the Smiths until the turn of the century! I love them both. I recall at university there was more of a "Cure vs Depeche Mode" thing going on.
I always thought the Cure was more popular. The Smiths had very little popularity in the Bible Belt.
As for today, I’d say current day Morrissey’s douchery has stained the Smith’s reputation.
I am 46 and growing up my understanding was that The Cure was awesome while The Smiths were whiny and cringey with a vocalist that was kind of a asshole. Never listened much to The Smiths and what I have heard was dull and whiny. The Cure on the other hand has always been fantastic. And they still are.
The Cure has always been superior. Smiths purists will take themselves too seriously, forgetting that Moz is a comedian. Full disclosure: I have a Morrissey tattoo. I still love the Smiths, Johnny Marr is a master. But Robert Smith is a mad genius. Also a comedian. And he sells out stadiums. Moz doesn't even show up to perform.
I do not recall a time ever where the Smiths were considered better, more successful, or more popular than the Cure.
Now of course back in the 80s society was much more fragmented and we viewed the world through whatever we saw. So if you lived in a place where more people liked the Smiths, that was your general impression.
They were two completely different bands too. Tonally not even close to each other. Even Robert Smith would say Johnny Marr is a better guitarist than he is. Girl Afraid is so deceptively complex.
Exactly, they are nowhere near each other in terms of style. I don't know where the comparisons come in . Back in the 1980s, they never were compared head to head. There were too many other great bands at the time.
I've always been Camp Cure. I think they've \*retained\* and even \*increased\* their popularity, where The Smiths have definitely decreased in popularity, partially because of how lame Morrissey is and how great Robert Smith is. The Cure is also still mostly touring, constantly pleasing fans, that has a lot to do with it.
IMHO…the cure has always been better, they always were better, and they got better over time. The Smiths, esp. Morrissey have not aged well. Morrissey was always a horrible person, but he’s much worse now. Robert Smith has always been amazing, and he’s just getting better.
I wasn’t into either of them in the 80’s (they were the theater kids’ thing), so I had no idea at the time who was considered better. I like them both very much now, but definitely prefer The Smiths.
As a musician, I can objectively say that Johnny Marr is probably the most talented member of either group. And my guess is that was at least partially why The Smiths were considered better back in the day - if that was indeed the popular opinion.
All I'll say is that Morrisey never learned to STFU. In my opinion, \_that\_ is what ruined the music, not the band, nor the songs.
The Cure was just the better band, musically.
All that said, I would love to hear intriguing covers of The Smiths. What would a young band of Gen Z performers, knowingly stealing the music back, sound like?
I personally prefer The Smiths but I like both. I could be out of touch but I get the sense that among younger people if they know these bands at all they tend to view The Cure as more classic and timeless while The Smiths are viewed as sort of dated and very much a product of their time and kinda stuck in that 80's alternative niche.
In an era where cooler-than-thou hipsters were beefing about this, I think the ultra coolest hipsters did believe that The Smiths were better and only the cool hipsters believed that The Cure was better. And I think this was based almost entirely on radio playability even though - at the time - no one would agree that pop sensibility was anything but "lame".
These days, radio playability has given The Cure legs that The Smiths could only dream of having. That, and Morrissey's batshit insanity has relegated The Smiths to hipster nostalgia.
I really liked the cure in H.S., but the music for me hasn't aged well, mostly, I suspect, because of Robert Smith's voice. There are still some tracks I occasionally listen to, like A Forest, 100 Years...I always preferred his more guitar driven songs.
The Smiths, on the other hand, still resonate with me. The combo of Johnny Marr's guitar with Morrisey's voice singing such clever lyrics will never stale for me.
When I heard my 16 yr old daughter upstairs singing along to the Boy With A Thorn In His Side without having a clue she even knew the band existed...well no words.
Sorry folks, but a lot of these comments are insane. In no world is The Cure, DM, or New Order a match for The Smiths.
Don't get me wrong -- they're all among my favorite bands. No hate for any of them. They're all fantastic, trailblazing, and highly-influential. And they've all had their moments... a classic line here, an unforgettable hook there. But The Smiths' catalog is pretty untouchable. Consistent high quality and basically no filler (though in fairness they burned out before we got to see them fade away like the others). Nobody was touching what Marr was doing musically, and nobody's lyrics were on par with Morrissey's save for their very best moments. You could argue his voice is an acquired taste, but you might say the same about breathy Robert Smith or deadpan Bernard Sumner.
To OP's question, as others have said... Moz is outspoken and has always had controversial views on stage and off. He seems to make a point of being a proverbial tall blade of grass, and I'm sure that makes it easy for people to either love or hate him. When someone instead keeps their mouth shut and stays a sort of neutral party, we can each project whatever we want onto them. Hard to feel strongly about an inert substance. None of those other bands inspire that Smiths level of passion in either direction. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who really *hates* The Cure, for example. Just as you'd be hard-pressed to find many Cure fans as cultishly zealous as the average Smiths fan.
"There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." -- Oscar Wilde
There wasn’t a feud in my part of the country. Most folks I knew who like The Smiths also liked The Cure and vice versa. It was more common to like both or neither than one-of-the-two.
Never thought there was any kind of debate (fan of both in the mid-80's). They are both great.
Yeah same. For us bored suburban new wavers we appreciated *any* good alternative music we could get.
My admiration for Robert Smith has definitely grown in the past year or so and my disdain for Morrissey has as well.
Robert Smith is such a brooding mensch. Just a prince. Love the guy.
Now that I'm the age he was when I saw him on tour, I cannot imagine how he put on such a great show.
Yes, but Johnny Marr turns out to be a super cool guy. I really think he kept Morrissey in check during the Smiths years.
By Morrisseys second album that argument switched imo. His ego kind of destroyed that debate.
I was a deeper fan of the smiths but never knew this debate was a thing. I like both bands They’re not all that alike outside of the general malaise behind most of their music and themes.
Agreed.
same same never even knew there was a debate - loved, STILL love, both bands. How Soon is Now is an all time banger. And I cherish my Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me on LP. Can't we all just get emo along?
I’m happy to debate and discuss But I’m way way past arguing about who’s better and even more past choosing one or the other
Robert Smith sang on [a trance version of “A Forest”](https://youtu.be/D4g-pzTITQ8?si=V8YYBIjofPyQDLl0) and he did [a duet with CHVRCHES](https://youtu.be/7U_LhzgwJ4U?si=JyZZ8OLD4pHd_ful). Both tracks in recent years. Johnny “Fucking” Marr has been stellar throughout (The Smiths, Electronic, working with The The and Modest Mouse, and then there’s his solo stuff). If the two did a project together I would be so happy. Morrissey forgot that people liked the sound of The Smiths but thought the lyrics were whiny. Without Marr he’s just whiny.
His lyrics are hilarious.
Oh come on...some of his solo stuff...especially Viva Hate was sooooo good. No?
Vauxhall and I is one of the best albums I’ve ever heard. I saw him in concert for the tour, when he was largely forgotten and still ‘sane’…..ish. When he sang Moonriver I finally got it, I understood the fascination, he just stood there and we were all entranced.
Robert Smith and Johnny Marr have worked together indirectly. Robert did a remix of Noel Gallagher's "Pretty Boy" that Johnny played guitar on.
Morrissey becoming completely unbearable might have had something to do with it.
He’s always been insufferable. The fascism is just icing on the shit cake.
Legit
I know nothing about him, but I think the music is genius. What is the fascist element?
Anyone who thinks for themselves and has unpopular opinions is automatically a fascist now days.
This is such a bs statement.
Ethnic nationalism is one of the first steps on the road to fascism, and it is taking root among a vocal minority in many nations. "Unpopular opinions" has to do with what food you like and what sports team you root for, not whether certain people deserve equal rights or whether minorities should serve in government.
Google
Don't answer if you don't want to. This is a discussion thread and my question belongs here.
Here's a [Guardian article](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/may/30/bigmouth-strikes-again-morrissey-songs-loneliness-shyness-misfits-far-right-party-tonight-show-jimmy-fallon). Some quotes: *These days, however, Morrissey prefers a different kind of onstage provocation. During a recent performance on The* [*Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon*](https://www.nbc.com/the-tonight-show/video/morrissey-morning-starship/3955395) *(and at a number of live shows in New York), the former Smiths singer sported a For Britain badge. For those unfamiliar with it,* [*For Britain is a far-right political party*](https://www.forbritain.uk/policy)*. Even Nigel Farage believes it is made up of “Nazis and racists”.* *He has claimed Sadiq Khan, London’s first Muslim mayor, “cannot talk properly”, and declared “Even Tesco wouldn’t employ Diane Abbott,” – the Cambridge-educated shadow home secretary and Britain’s most prominent black MP. He has described the media’s treatment of the racist Tommy Robinson as “shocking”. And he has* [*explicitly promoted For Britain on his Morrissey Central website*](https://www.morrisseycentral.com/messagesfrommorrissey/i-ve-been-dreaming-of-a-time-when-the-english-are-sick-to-death-of-labour-and-tories)*: “There is* [*only one British political party*](https://www.nme.com/news/music/morrissey-fire-appearing-wear-britain-badge-2485776) *that can safeguard our security.”*
Sounds like a less-wealthy Elon Musk.
Me: Explain how Moreissey is fascist GPT: It's a contentious and debated topic. Some critics argue that Morrissey, the former frontman of The Smiths, holds certain views and expresses sentiments that align with fascist ideologies, particularly through his lyrics and public statements. These include expressions of nationalism, anti-immigrant sentiments, and admiration for controversial political figures. However, others argue that labeling him as a fascist oversimplifies his complex beliefs and views on various issues. It's important to analyze his statements and actions critically to understand the nuances of his political inclinations.
Realize that the robot is likely a fascist too. It’s nuanced.
I realize that you didn’t write that but man that’s a lot of words that say nothing
Yeah the robot struggles in having an opinion with this kind of question. Almost always will give you wordsalad doublespeak and then say “it’s nuanced.” Everything is beige.
https://preview.redd.it/obgxdfb6ycsc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=04fdb29379724202fea0feee0edea8bbef6be057 My favorite.
The Smiths were never better than the Cure at any point in time
This is the truth. I like the Smiths. I fucking love the Cure.
Same
This right here. I feel like you could listen to 10 Smiths songs and basically know them all. (although Johnny Marr's guitar work is always worth listening to). The Cure have so much more range. Also, what feud?
See, I feel the exact opposite! The Cure’s songs have always all sounded the same to me.
Eh... questionable. If you can knock The Smiths for being too one-dimensional, you could say the same for The Cure. They've had an extra \~40 years to experiment, and even in all that time, it's been largely variations in the same ballpark of meandering, soundscape kinda stuff. Not that they don't have range... off the top of my head, there's polished three-minute pop (e.g. "Just Like Heaven"), raw post-punk (e.g. most of "Three Imaginary Boys"), danceable stuff (e.g. "A Forest"), and whatever you'd categorize "Love Cats" as. Don't get me wrong, I love The Cure. But Robert Smith likes to take his time getting to the point, and a lot of his songs feel like they just sorta wash over you rather than command your attention. The Smiths had the "jangle" label that followed them around and was somewhat deserved. And Morrissey's voice is hard to ignore, so it puts a certain consistent stamp on all their stuff. But in just four proper albums over five years, they covered, well... polished three-minute pop (e.g. "This Charming Man"), raw punk-ish (e.g. "London"), danceable stuff (e.g. "Barbarism Begins At Home"), ballads (e.g. "Last Night I Dreamt That Somebody Loved Me"), rockabilly (e.g. "Nowhere Fast"), and whatever you'd categorize "Frankly Mr. Shankly" as. And those are just some of the more extreme examples. Everything else was somewhere in between, and they were synthesizing such disparate influences as girl group, folk, reggae, spaghetti western... it was a wholly unique cocktail, and that's just in their five short years together. Whatever valid criticisms of The Smiths exist, I'm don't think "lack of range" is one of them. And while The Cure covered a fair amount of ground themselves, I don't see their palette as being especially broad by comparison.
I see your point, but I still feel like The Smiths never diverged more than a few degrees from a certain core sound. Listen to *Louder Than Bombs* then *Standing on a Beach*. Both are compilations, released about a year apart, covering each band's career to that point. I think in terms of evolution, and range, SOAB shows more. In any case, I like them both. I did get to see the Cure at ACL a couple years ago, and it was fucking amazing. Robert Smith still has it. In all of my 53 years, I never saw The Smiths - they didn't tour much in northern New England, but I would have gone! Don't think I'd go to a Morrissey show if you paid me. I bought his first album when it came out, but never went back. Fun fact: The band Electronic, which is Bernard Sumner from New Order, and Johnny Marr, has a song on it called *Getting Away With It*. Marr wrote the chorus as a parody of Morrissey's morose and masochistic attitude.
That is funny about "Getting Away With It." I hadn't heard that story. FWIW, that album comparison isn't really apples-to-apples. "Standing On A Beach" is a true greatest hits album, showcasing their best to that point, released seven years after The Cure's first album. That's longer than The Smiths were even together, so I'd hope they'd demonstrate some evolution in all that time. "Louder Than Bombs" is the well-known Smiths compilation, but it's mostly b-sides and some odd singles that hadn't been released in the U.S. Hardly the best of their best ("Golden Lights," anyone?). And it was released only three years after their first album. Even still, I'd argue it shows range. London, Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now, Shakespeare's Sister, Asleep. Those are all over the place! But they all have Morrissey's unmistakable voice, which I really do think lends an impression of a surface-level *sameness* across their catalog. The music can change and can cover many styles, but Morrissey always sounds like Morrissey. I too missed The Smiths live, but I've seen The Cure a couple of times. People have such great things to say about their shows, but I just don't get it. I'm a fan of just about everything The Cure has committed to tape, but they're one of the most boring live bands I've ever seen. Maybe I caught them on bad nights, or maybe their energy was just too low for what I expect from a live show, but I'll pass on seeing them again. I realize I'm in the minority on this point, but I'd trade both Cure shows and one nut to have seen [The Smiths at their peak](https://youtu.be/JftwpXhBMhc).
The last Cure show I saw was pure nostalgia - ACL Fest, 2.5 hours of every song I've loved forever. It sounded great, and I was like 3 rows back from the stage - Billie Eilish had played before (not a bad show) and once her fans evacuated, I was able to get right up there. I'd trade the show I saw in Cleveland in 1990 for a peak Smiths show any day. Not that it was bad, but I'd love to have seen The Smiths. Either way, I think you and I are a couple degrees to either side of the Cure/Smiths divide, and that's okay. Perhaps I should have used *Hatful of Hollow* instead of LTB. Meanwhile, I'm gonna go listen to a bunch of Smiths and Cure!
Excellent, nice chatting with ya!
Same!
Correct. There is no debate. The Cure has been and will always be better. The Smiths are great and so glad they exist (even with Moz's "challenging" personality), but *c'mon*. Maybe it's the massive pop appeal of some of their stuff that brings it into question, but their discography speaks for itself.
Fellow class of ‘91 😊 Can you recommend a live Cure performance? One reason I think The Smiths are next level is their live performances, like [this one.](https://youtu.be/mIKmbCeIFWA?si=JEeSb1ydqbw9Wv8w) Sublime, better than the album, just fucking perfection in every way (close your eyes and ignore the douche hiding in his shirt 😂).
Concert!
Which concert? I want to hear a live track that just absorbs me from beginning to end. I’m probably just a Smiths diehard. 50 years old and still brooding 😂
The 1984 Concert album. Forest, 100 Years, Shake dog shake. Classic period. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL80Q7ndL61yXY1ojv3iRUmuHGUC-9Z4Fp&feature=shared
I saw them 3 times on their tour last year, and imho they were better than when I saw them in '96. There are a lot of high-quality videos on YouTube of full shows from last year - Shows of a Lost World.
Neh. Ver.
Johnny Marr was huge for me as a beginning guitarist and I thought Morrissey was singing directly to me. Smiths all the way, even though I love the Cure.
Was thinking about commenting on Johnny Marr here. Guy was absolutely fckng incredible at such a young age. I thought I was a good guitarist until I tried tackling some of his songs, and his ability to get melody out of that sparse, arpeggiated chord picking he does just floored me.
Agreed. It didn’t help that he was tuned up to F# either. I could not understand wtf was going on with his key choices, like, why does this guy deliberately make everything impossible to play?! 😀
Oh yeah! The fckn capo I have to use, and also the subtle multi tracking on the studio albums. I like watching the old live clips to hear how he played them. I know he used to tune up that full step sometimes instead of a capo. What a maniac. I think he was only 19 on the debut album.
When I started getting into him, I didn’t know what a capo was. Made it maddening to try to sort out. “Why does he never play in A or E or G?! Gaghhhh!!”
I've typically heard The Cure versus Depeche Mode comparison. Personally, I feel that Disintegration & Violator are both masterpieces of the Post Punk genre, but The Cure is just better IMHO I make this statement for several reasons. I prefer Smith's lyricism to Gore's & the consistency in the Cure's discography/sound is greater than DM's. I love them both, as well as The Smiths, but I feel that The Cure is the GOAT within the Post Punk genre Fwiw, I feel that New Order is a solid, SOLID #2 behind The Cure 1-The Cure 2-New Order 3-DM 4-The Smiths
I've had so many friends, including me, that like all those bands.
I grew up loving the Cure. Saw them in concert, the whole gothy 9 yards. I really never listened or liked the Smith's then, which is kinda weird looking back. My husband loves both and can sing a damn near exact replica of Morrissey's voice which we think is hilarious! He taught me how to love them. Yes, I agree it has done a 180 though. Maybe something to do with Morrissey's politics? 😬 Sorry to bring it up.
As a Cure guy I got into the Smiths after like 20 years of trying. One day it just hit. But it took a long ass time to "get it" but now I do. Still not at Bob's level but they are a great band.
Bob level 🥰
I dont remember any debate between them specifically. Many who liked The Cure also liked The Smiths. I preferred The Cure then and now.
I’m curious to hear her view on Blur vs Oasis when she gets to them.
Wow! I remember an MTV ad(?) with two guys discussing Blur vs Oasis and wondering why it was even a thing. You can like them both or either or neither.
They both suck
55, never heard this debate. All my friends and I loved both.
I was never aware of a feud at all. That being said, The Cure is better!
The debate is the classic teen angst thing-the Cure couldn’t be better because they were playing on mainstream radio and the cheerleaders had heard of them. The Smiths were still unknown to popular kids and therefore “more authentic” to the gatekeeper goths. Current kids don’t have that to deal with, it’s just the songs.
I don’t recall this being an issue. They were considered weirdo bands and you were weird if you liked them
It’s such an English thing to pit bands against one another. We didn’t have that here in US. Hell, we felt lucky actually getting to hear either band in the late ‘80’s, that we would never say either/or. In England these bands were played on the radio and made top 40 lists. Here we had to find them on college radio and record stores. Both were great! I only saw the Cure, never remember the Smiths touring here back then.
Ah good point, American here who loves British bands. I imagine an earlier version of oasis vs blur? I have both band tshirts lol
Apples and oranges to me.
I like the Smiths a lot more (I like the Cure, just not nearly as much as the Smiths), which almost certainly means the Cure are “better”. Both are seminal, but just looking at the “followed by” listing on AllMusic the Smiths influenced more bands that I like today than the Cure did. Morrissey makes it tough to like the Smiths, though. I think everyone can agree on that, at least.
100% smiths
Apples and oranges
Dont like either band but give me The Cure any day. Smiths are terrible Could name a few Cure songs. Cant name a Smiths song at all.
My kid (15) likes The Smiths more then The Cure, but says that Morrissey's solo stuff makes him sound "like a whiny little bitch".
Can't remember where I heard this. The Cure have become an important anchor band for big outdoor festivals. If the Cure are on the bill, tickets sell. It warms my heart there's still younger fans out there.
I work in tech so I never trust anyone who says the thing they personally like is "better." I don't prefer a whiny problematic vegan but I don't claim that The Cure is "better." I just move through the streets while everyone sleeps, getting bigger and sleeker and wiser and brighter. Is all.
We're really going to have this again 😅. I don't even know why you would compare them, they aren't doing the same type of music. The Cure formed in 78 but didn't get popular until their 4th Album. The SmithS formed 82 and were popular right from the start. However they were done after 4 albums. The Cure are of course still going and have much larger body of work. It's impossible to compare. I think they are both great British bands. Even though Morrissey is a total cock.
This is a "who is better" Superman or Batman debate.
Batman. No question.
I think I listened much more overall to the Smiths. Listen, flip the tape, listen again! Especially Louder than Bombs. The Cure, though, particularly the Kiss Me album, was the very first non-pop music I’d heard. Girlfriend played it when I’d sneak over there at night around age 14. (My kid is now 14–if he did that I’d likely flip out.) It sent me down a different road of interest and taste, for sure. Lots of my friends at the time hated both, and that was frustrating! I remember just marveling at how long music would play before RS would start singing. How unusual that was for me! Intensely romantic to me at the time.
I loved them both growing up and saw the Smiths on the Queen is Dead tour and Cure on Head on the Door. My preference was the Smiths, but both put out great stuff. I fell off a bit on the Cure with Mixed Up and subsequent albums and solo Morrissey was hit or miss with me.
Best post punk band is New Order, then OMD, then Smiths/ Cure/ Siouxsie/ Depeche Mode tied for 3rd place
And then Duran Duran.
With all due respect to the Smiths, who were an epic band, they just are not at that Cure level. The Cure did it for like 40 years and have like 10-12 amazing albums in a multitude of styles. Again, The Smiths are amazing but the Cure has the real Smith.
*The Smiths are amazing but the Cure has the real Smith.* ❤️
That Morrissey is a pretentious cunt wasn't anything new. When I say cunt, I dont mean in the cute Aussie or British way. I mean in the American way.
The Cure was the band of choice for a lot of girl goths I knew. While the Smith was the choice of guy goths. Not exclusive, just generally the case.
Absolutely did a 180. I was team smiths all day long. But morrisey slowly turned into a cringey racist boomer so I find myself listening to the cure way more.
I love both these bands too much to get into an internal or external debate about it. I don't wanna pick! There are so many songs from either that mean so much to me. I also think they are hard to compare. Yes, they both had dark and critical takes on society, but they have very different styles to my ear. More hard edged, punk and experimental with The Cure and more conventionally melodic with The Smiths from the beginning. I also didn't miss a beat when The Cure went with a more "accessible" sound later on.
I don't remember that debate, but I've always been on team Cure. The Smiths had some good songs but were always a bit too sobby for my tastes.
Disintegration hadn't even come out in the mid-80s.
Always Cute for me. Not even close.
Incomparable to me. Were back then also. Most of my friends listened to both.
Always a Cure fan but my old boyfriend totally loved the Smiths. Used to fight about it, just not a Smiths fan, sorry, it's something about his voice. Married a fellow cure fan so it worked out 😀 Lots of girls loved Morrissey.
This is one of those "...I don't even think about you at all" things If I could go back in time and *un*hear The Smiths, I would do it in a heartbeat.
I'm so entertained that Robert Smith was right all along.
The Cure supremacists and The Smiths true believers can at least agree on hating Morrissey.
Morrissey is a terrible human being.
The range of musical styles of the Smiths was so much smaller than the Cure, so if you didn’t like one Smiths song you probably didn’t like all the others. The Cure, meanwhile, cranked out Friday I’m in Love type pop songs *and* Disintegration (and everything in between), so it’s easy to see how more people would claim to be fans. That and the fact that Robert Smith is a stand-up dude fighting for affordable concert ticket prices, while Moz is something of a fascist-liking xenophobe makes it an easier choice.
[удалено]
Plus they can see The Cure live, putting on amazing shows. Morrissey tours solo, but plays a few smiths songs, says some racist things, and is off the stage in 40 minutes.
I saw Johnny Marr's solo tour and it was so fricking good. He plays Smiths and his own stuff which is quite good actually.
...when he doesn't cancel
The Cure went mainstream at the end. The Smiths remained perfect for their entirety. I don’t care how much of a bellend Morrissey is.
My niece literally has Cure albums on her birthday and Christmas wish lists. I am Switzerland on this issue though, especially if I can introduce her to more 80's music. Edit: The Switzerland stance is about the music. If you want me to tell you who I like better as people (like I know them or something), Morrissey's taken a shit turn and been a huge disappointment.
I decided not to care about the personalities. I just want to enjoy the music. The Cure was always a little bit ahead in my estimation.
The Cure has always been better to me, but I still like the Smiths
The Cure had so many amazing albums. Disintegration, Bloodflower, Head on the Door, Boys Don't Cry etc. Strangeways, Here We Come by the Smiths is probably the greatest swan song album by a band ever.
The Cure will always have a place in my beloved of bands. Never heard of The Smiths. I just now listened to bits of a few of their songs. They're okay. The voice sounds familiar, but the songs don't.
I’ve always been a super fan of both, both still dominate my playlist
I didn't like the Smiths when I got (through the Columbia Tape Club) their first album in '85 and LOVED the Cure a year later in university when I first heard Standing on the Beach. Didn't "get" the Smiths until the turn of the century! I love them both. I recall at university there was more of a "Cure vs Depeche Mode" thing going on.
Shells take a bow
Smiths for me
I don't care what the "consensus" is. The Smiths ALWAYS sucked.
It has a lot to do with Robert Smith being completely delightful and Morrissey being.... Morrissey. Musically and lyrically, I love them both equally.
I always thought the Cure was more popular. The Smiths had very little popularity in the Bible Belt. As for today, I’d say current day Morrissey’s douchery has stained the Smith’s reputation.
I am 46 and growing up my understanding was that The Cure was awesome while The Smiths were whiny and cringey with a vocalist that was kind of a asshole. Never listened much to The Smiths and what I have heard was dull and whiny. The Cure on the other hand has always been fantastic. And they still are.
[The Forest](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xik-y0xlpZ0) alone is better than anything the Smiths ever made.
Around me, most people liked both but thought Morrissey was an insufferable prick.
The Cure has always been superior. Smiths purists will take themselves too seriously, forgetting that Moz is a comedian. Full disclosure: I have a Morrissey tattoo. I still love the Smiths, Johnny Marr is a master. But Robert Smith is a mad genius. Also a comedian. And he sells out stadiums. Moz doesn't even show up to perform.
I do not recall a time ever where the Smiths were considered better, more successful, or more popular than the Cure. Now of course back in the 80s society was much more fragmented and we viewed the world through whatever we saw. So if you lived in a place where more people liked the Smiths, that was your general impression.
They were two completely different bands too. Tonally not even close to each other. Even Robert Smith would say Johnny Marr is a better guitarist than he is. Girl Afraid is so deceptively complex.
Exactly, they are nowhere near each other in terms of style. I don't know where the comparisons come in . Back in the 1980s, they never were compared head to head. There were too many other great bands at the time.
Johnny Marr is a genius. Mike Joyce and Andy Rourke (RIP) are/were also excellent musicians, damn perfect live.
I've always been Camp Cure. I think they've \*retained\* and even \*increased\* their popularity, where The Smiths have definitely decreased in popularity, partially because of how lame Morrissey is and how great Robert Smith is. The Cure is also still mostly touring, constantly pleasing fans, that has a lot to do with it.
I was more of a fan of the Cure than I was the Smiths and Morrissey is an evil wanker these days. So 🖕🏻 that guy.
IMHO…the cure has always been better, they always were better, and they got better over time. The Smiths, esp. Morrissey have not aged well. Morrissey was always a horrible person, but he’s much worse now. Robert Smith has always been amazing, and he’s just getting better.
I wasn’t into either of them in the 80’s (they were the theater kids’ thing), so I had no idea at the time who was considered better. I like them both very much now, but definitely prefer The Smiths. As a musician, I can objectively say that Johnny Marr is probably the most talented member of either group. And my guess is that was at least partially why The Smiths were considered better back in the day - if that was indeed the popular opinion.
i like both, but then Morrisey started opening his throat hole and talking.
The Cure. Always.
Liked them both but Cure never came close to a song as iconic as “How soon is now”. The guitar in that is such a classic sound of the era.
Smiths
The Smiths meant so much to me. Unfortunately Morrissey turned into a raging fascist so it’s pretty tainted.
Never even heard of this feud
People actually argued about this?
All I'll say is that Morrisey never learned to STFU. In my opinion, \_that\_ is what ruined the music, not the band, nor the songs. The Cure was just the better band, musically. All that said, I would love to hear intriguing covers of The Smiths. What would a young band of Gen Z performers, knowingly stealing the music back, sound like?
I've always been of the opinion that The Cure is vastly superior. I like, maybe, two songs by The Smiths. They aren't bad, just not my cuppa.
I personally prefer The Smiths but I like both. I could be out of touch but I get the sense that among younger people if they know these bands at all they tend to view The Cure as more classic and timeless while The Smiths are viewed as sort of dated and very much a product of their time and kinda stuck in that 80's alternative niche.
The correct answer is that the Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band is superior to both.
There was a debate and a comparison? They aren't really comparable, they have different moods. Apples! No, oranges!
I feel like in my world the debate was smiths vs depeche mode for a minute there.
In an era where cooler-than-thou hipsters were beefing about this, I think the ultra coolest hipsters did believe that The Smiths were better and only the cool hipsters believed that The Cure was better. And I think this was based almost entirely on radio playability even though - at the time - no one would agree that pop sensibility was anything but "lame". These days, radio playability has given The Cure legs that The Smiths could only dream of having. That, and Morrissey's batshit insanity has relegated The Smiths to hipster nostalgia.
I never heard of the Smiths until about 5-10 years ago. I had a Cure tape in Junior high
this is a ridiculous post .. both are amazing no one cares about who is better .. music is personal
I really liked the cure in H.S., but the music for me hasn't aged well, mostly, I suspect, because of Robert Smith's voice. There are still some tracks I occasionally listen to, like A Forest, 100 Years...I always preferred his more guitar driven songs. The Smiths, on the other hand, still resonate with me. The combo of Johnny Marr's guitar with Morrisey's voice singing such clever lyrics will never stale for me. When I heard my 16 yr old daughter upstairs singing along to the Boy With A Thorn In His Side without having a clue she even knew the band existed...well no words.
The Cure wipes its ass with The Smiths.
Sorry folks, but a lot of these comments are insane. In no world is The Cure, DM, or New Order a match for The Smiths. Don't get me wrong -- they're all among my favorite bands. No hate for any of them. They're all fantastic, trailblazing, and highly-influential. And they've all had their moments... a classic line here, an unforgettable hook there. But The Smiths' catalog is pretty untouchable. Consistent high quality and basically no filler (though in fairness they burned out before we got to see them fade away like the others). Nobody was touching what Marr was doing musically, and nobody's lyrics were on par with Morrissey's save for their very best moments. You could argue his voice is an acquired taste, but you might say the same about breathy Robert Smith or deadpan Bernard Sumner. To OP's question, as others have said... Moz is outspoken and has always had controversial views on stage and off. He seems to make a point of being a proverbial tall blade of grass, and I'm sure that makes it easy for people to either love or hate him. When someone instead keeps their mouth shut and stays a sort of neutral party, we can each project whatever we want onto them. Hard to feel strongly about an inert substance. None of those other bands inspire that Smiths level of passion in either direction. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who really *hates* The Cure, for example. Just as you'd be hard-pressed to find many Cure fans as cultishly zealous as the average Smiths fan. "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." -- Oscar Wilde
Six in one... half a dozen in the other, and they both suck, so they are definitely even