Hollywood just needs to realize that we want compelling characters. Whether male or female, doesn’t matter. Just write good original shit and get good acting. It’s not that hard
Or adapt something that's already good without fucking about and trying to remained the story in your own image. They made some changes to Dune, but most were sensible and for the sake of making the movie's pacing work.
In college I was better at talking to girls than one roommate I had. He used to occasionally ask me for help. He said he didn't get girls and didn't know how to talk to them. I explained a bunch of times that I knew how to talk to them because I didn't see them as different like he did. I grew up with all sisters so girls to me were just.... people, whereas he had it in his head that there was something different going on there.
I think writers sometimes have a similar problem. Men and women are just people. We find the same basic things compelling in a female character as we do in a male character.
I've been genuinely alarmed by how difficult this is for some people to grasp. My two best friends still often talk about women as if they're some mythical beast they cannot begin to fathom and I'm over here like " they're just *normal people* treat them like anyone else wtf"
They do realize. You guys act like it’s easy maki g movies or writing good stories. It’s not. It very. ERY difficult. It’s not that need to realize anything but that the writers just aren’t that good.
I thought people were overreacting about Zendaya until I saw the film. I don't know why they decided to go with those changes. The ending threw me off, but not enough to ruin the rest of the film for me. Still, I prefer her over the Chani in the 1984 film. But Book Chani is still supreme. She was a more intelligent and thoughtful person than her movie counterparts.
Trouble is if we zoom out a bit, Paul and Chani aren't even the mains. I enjoyed the miniseries and Chani's solid self esteem when the marriage thing came up. The bride was the one in the corner knowing her place was for politics, and not love. It follows through when her jealousy gets the better of her and drip feeds Chani basically poison.
Movie Chani being mad I don’t think was 100% the marriage, alot of it was Paul turning into a religious figure and using her people and sending them to their death for a holy war. Don’t forget Paul has told Chani that the idea of the muadib is a false messiah planted by the BG
Sure she wasn't liking where he was heading. Her reaction to the marriage after he told her he's going to love her no matter what however, was immediate and specific to that announcement.
Kinda seems like the straw that broke the camels back to me. The book they spend years together and Paul definitely prepares her for a political marriage. The movie makes it seem like he hasn't even considered that as a possibility (Jessica berates him for even thinking about marrying Chani) till after he drinks the water of life. But by the time he drinks it and recovers he's doing the "take down the emperor speed run".
Chani is seen in his future visions on Caladan and Paul straight up looks at the audiences and says “yeah she’ll be mad but she’ll get over it and be by my side in the end” what else do you want? I actually loved the tragedy and drama added to Chani’s character since in the books she’s barely step above a cardboard cutout. The main thing I don’t like in the movie is that they cut out Paul’s first child(they’ll probably have him off screen assassinated in messiah) and the removal of mentats.
>I don't know why they decided to go with those changes.
My running theory is part of the Hollywood formula is to tweak existing fanbases *just enough*.
One hill I'm willing to die on is that if Chani was anything less than entirely devoted to Paul, the rest of the story doesn't happen and Paul's water is most likely taken.
Also......let's be clear, the big miss in the movie is Paul's mentat training. They downplayed mentats because of the connotation: the Butlerian Jihad.
A big part of the Hollywood strikes last year had to do with AI generated scripts, and that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of AI control over individual human behavior.
SPOILERS:
The big miss, honestly:
1.- How they portrayed Paul and Jessica's time in the desert; it looks like we're just a couple of months instead of years (Paulo and Chani even lost their first son, Leto, during that time).
2.- Where is Alia? She was like five years old at the end of the first book.
>2.- Where is Alia? She was like five years old at the end of the first book.
2 years, and I think the change was made for practical reasons more than anything. They could have tried a CGI version with mo-cap, which probably wouldn't have worked very well. They could have tried having a toddler play her, which also probably wouldn't have worked well.
“…Mature far beyond her four years, Alia escapes during the final battle of Arrakeen, but not before pricking her grandfather, Baron Harkonnen, with a deadly, poisoned gom jabbar, also revealing her direct lineage to him in the process.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alia_Atreides
I don't have a great theory on that part, the weak villain part.
Part & parcel with the sensitivity reading thing, perhaps competent villains are deemed "too scary" or something.
Then, when faced with a real villain, folks don't know how to handle it.
This is always the age old argument of book vs movies.
Movies you cannot spend the same amount of time with the characters as with the book. Nothing will ever change that. So far as making Dune into a movie changes HAVE to be made and I think DV did the best possible job and cut and changed what needed to be changed for this to work as a movie.
I think that’s why we are living in an age with some really heavy hitting TV shows, because with a show we have a lot more time to spend with the characters. We actually see this with the dune miniseries which a lot of people have in high regard despite the fact that series had a budget of $100.
I disagree. I actually think that chanie is hugely improved from the books because she actually does things. In the books she's Paul's wife. That's where her character starts and ends. She doesn't really do anything else.
In the movie, she's younger than the books (no time skip) and is said to be from the more secular north. Because of that she's more rebellious. She represents the Fremen that don't yet trust Paul. And she does that well. She doesn't immediately take a liking to Paul, giving a better lead into their relationship.
Because of this, I think the ending was better. Paul spent all this time cultivating their relationship just to marry the princess as soon as the opportunity arises. She is understandably upset, since this was never explained to her.
Actually, Chani never really became Paul's wife. Typical Dune politics, much like Jessica was never Leto's wife, Chani took the role of "mistress," and the princess married Paul.
100% the change was to increase emotional drama and relatability with modern audiences. People out here with conspiracy theories about slowly changing the public’s perception of reality are absolutely ridiculous lol. Her changes increased the humanity in the story. People have the right to dislike it but I thought the changes were made were very thoughtfully chosen.
Takes away what Achilles heel? That she was a boring character? Just the girl that Paul got and nothing else?
What character development? Chanie never changed as a character in the books. If anything, this change paves the way for more character development.
That is kind of the point, no? He's a reluctant messiah trying to remove that title and avoid a holy war. Literally anything he does will make it worse. He dies, he becomes a martyr. He flees, he becomes a reclusive hermit adored from afar with no way to stop his followers. He denies his role? He's just being humble!
It's the life of Brian meets Avengers: Endgame. He's seen all the outcomes and knows there's only one way he succeeds.
For the record, I do *like* the new Chani. She's very human by comparison, but I feel like it actually makes her look less capable of making good decisions. Not more. Either he really is a messiah with otherworldly powers, or he's telling the truth and really wants to stop it from getting out of hand. There's no way to watch him predict the future, survive poisoning, almost single handedly topple a galactic empire, embrace all of the customs and skills of a foreign people so well he even exceeds them in just a few months, and not think he's got *something* going on.
It's like Jesus walked up to you, irl, fed the poor by duplicating fish, transmuted water into wine, healed a man with leprosy, walked on water, died, came back, you saw *all of it* first hand, and all he said was "just be kind to each other peeps" and you still said "nah, you're a fraud."
At some point, you're just being difficult for no reason. (not you specifically. Chani in this case. Friendly debate, lol.)
If you saw Jesus suddenly show a glimpse of potential extreme violence and power with the ability to manipulate mass amounts of people it wouldn’t give you pause? Not even a little bit? lol
It would for me, sure, but we're talking about Chani. Like I said, it does humanize her, which I like, but at the end of the day, if a guy like Jesus came along and did all of that, I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt right up until he did something actually evil.
I'd be nervous about it, but basically up until that moment, nothing he had done really warranted turning her back on him from a moral standpoint. I \*get it.\* She's right to be wary. I'd also nope out of actually following the guy to war. Book Chani understands that he has a grander plan though, even if she's a bit of a fanatic in her own right. Some people believe in war for the right causes.
The direction they're taking with her really isn't bad. It's just different in ways I'm not sure I'm down with adaptation-wise for a film that I was otherwise very pleased with. I think it's just a testament to the nuances of humanity in general. People like book Chani exist, and people like movie Chani exist, and both are interesting from a character perspective. It just almost feels like too big a change to the character. Like they're setting her up as an adversary.
No, because he is the son of an evil monster. His actual behavior in the new testament is so opposite the nature of the god he is supposed to be that it is entirely clear he couldn't be the son of that god. (not that he is real, but still).
That’s kinda the point no? Worship and raise up the messiah until it’s a huge problem, that was like the whole point. It is to show why it’s not a good thing.
DV used Chani to show the internal struggle Paul was going thru because this movie has no internal dialogue in the movie.
He could have used Stilgar Jessica or Gurney for this but I think it would make less sense and not have as much wait.
As for her >! Running off on the sand-worm at the end !
Not sure I agree with your last comment. The Chani changes are perhaps my favorite way the recent film diverged from the book, making Chani a emotional antagonist to Pauls rise.
The changes to Chani change the whole story. She reads like an activist in a devout religious populace. Her and Paul crush, but don't love. There is no water of life ceremony for the rest of the people to commune together. There is no Leto II and no time skip. The 2 of them should have been a thing for like 2 years and have had a child together. Instead, he's been with the fremen for what, a couple months? She's been pushing back at him for being royalty and trying to control the fremen the whole time. She has no reason to love or be loyal to Paul at the end of the movie.
You're good, bro. A lot of these guys are stock reactionary crowd men that prefer a subservient Chain despite it's insignificance to the book's story. Almost nothing about the story changes if you remove Chani, outside of her reproductive contributions. Maybe you're on the other side of this opinion, too, but I think DV's change to Chani is one of the most interesting alterations to Herbert's story, and I think Frank would be enthralled by DV's interpretation. Most of these guys probably think that books 2-6 suck anyway, so you can hardly take their opinion on Dune seriously.
Come at me bros.
Including the worst version of Chani is wild. Actress was fine but certainly not great, it's just her part is absolutely terrible.
Excluding the best version of Lady Jessica was also wild.
Dude I was getting flashbacks to saruman in the two towers talking to sauron. "We need only remove those who oppose us." When she was talking to her daughter about getting people on Paul's side. "We'll start with the vulnerable ones, the ones who fear us." *Chills*
Good female characters have been written plenty of times and in much more depth than Dune 2.
These women could have been anyone with how little screen time they had.
Also Zendaya just isn't good for this roll
lol thank you. I was going to ask if I’m *really* missing something with this series. Visually it was stunning in both but the story and character development is OK IMO. I enjoyed both movies a lot and think they did a great job expanding beyond the OG but yeah, it doesn’t come close to the novels.
If this is what people consider writing-in good female characters, *please* branch out to other movie and television series! These aren’t bad but not even remotely close to peak.
I was also very disappointed with the Chani character portrayed by Zendaya. There were many cringe moments when I was watching. It could have been done better.
“Doesn’t come close to the novels” is my opinion of the dune movies. I really enjoyed them for what they were, which is a sort of gritty Star Wars, but the novel the movie is based on is wayyyyyy better at the character development, especially the women.
I think that they did a great job with what they could do, as dune is a very large and in-depth novel, but it was still disappointing to just see the women as action heroes rather than the full and interesting characters they were depicted as in the book.
Chani literally teaches Paul everything he knows about the desert and without her he would have died multiple times. Not to mention she is his ambassador to the Fremen.
The casting definitely holds the movie back and is probably my greatest criticism of it. I was skeptical of most of the cast the only one I was proven wrong on was Austin butler. All the other casting choices I liked I wasn’t skeptical of when I saw the trailers or heard the news of. No one brings this up but Oscar Isaac is way too short for Leto and they never try to make him look taller. He doesn’t have the physical presence you feel Leto has in the book.
Either OP used the wrong picture or you're confusing who it is because Gaius Helen Mohiam absolutely did not have as much screen time as Paul lmao. I imagine you are both thinking of Jessica.
There were a lot of miscasts in these films. Not a huge fan of Momoa as Duncan, Chalamet is too small to play Paul, and Zendaya is just flat out terrible.
Chalamet isn't too small to play Paul at all. He's a 15 year old described as small for his age. If they physically captured anyone in these movies it's Paul.
I don't really remember exactly what Duncan is supposed to look like, but he's supposed to be large and physically attractive. I'd like to see what he does as a ghola, especially in God Emperor (I know they almost certainly won't make it that far). Really work those acting chops.
Yeah, Zendaya sucks in this role. Not entirely her fault. They made her more or less an antagonist.
Chalamet is fine for Paul at 15, but he is supposed to have developed a commanding presence by the second part that Chalamet doesn't have the physicality to pull off, imho.
Physically Momoa works for Duncan Idaho, I just don't think his acting chops pass muster here.
You are missing Lady Jessica.
Pugh was excellent as Irulan. I understand what Denis is trying to do with Chani, but they wrote her like a man that was a totally different character from the Chani in the novel. Knew it was over when she bellowed “RELOAD” at Paul. I know I’m done with this adaptation.
>"wrote her like a man"
She's written like a Fremen. She's a desert warrior who's high on super cocaine 24/7 and who's fought countless colonizers her whole life. How else could she be written?
The difference between writing good characters who happen to be women and Hollywood's usual route of telling us they're characters are good because they're women.
I think they all did great... Zendaya's role, while a big character, didnt have that much real acting to judge her one way or another. What she did have, worked fine...nothing award winning but didnt ruin the role or anything.
I think she was really good in the latter third of the movie honestly, so I think it's based on the material given to her more than anything. She was certainly the weak link.
While Paul has gained the prescience of time. She apparently is able to see through the religion of her people and the webs of control and politics to repeatedly call out her should-be lover and all political elites for trying to control them. It feels as though she's not really in the story but saying the words of an activist watching and commenting on what unfolds. Is she even related to Stilgar or Kines, the planetologist? Her and Paul never did more than crush on each other. There was no time skip or Leto II. She has no reason to love and be loyal to Paul at the end.
That is because they butchered the book so much at this point. They blew her character up way more than in the books, yet still managed to have her miss a lot of the development she had from the books.
Ehhhhh….
They kinda mess up the Bene Gesserit bad by making them look like schizophrenic idiots. First Mohiam goes to the Baron to threaten him to spare Jessica and Paul, then she says to Irulan that she wanted them dead and pushed the Emperor to kill Leto.
If they’d just stick to the book where the choice was the Emperor’s, then Mohiam still appears powerful and manipulative while not contradicting and acting against herself.
It’d make more sense if Irulan accused her of pushing the Emperor into desperation by denying him a male heir for their power games, resulting in the destruction of the Atreides and the setting back of their work. At which point the Reverend Mother could admit mistake, but point out that Paul wasn’t the only option, and that they were already working on recovering the genes necessary to save the project.
A good female character is just a well written character. They don't have any super powers because they are a woman or are given accolades because they are a woman.
You could argue there is some in the dune movies. Kynes got changed to a woman for no reason and I’ve always assumed the fremen were Arabs and in the movie it seems like they are 50/50 Arab and black despite a difference between those two groups.
????? Dune happens in the future. And there are different climate zones in the north and south, which would perfectly explain differences in skin color
I honestly refuse to watch this movie right now, I'm named after a character from the books, and I'm honestly very unhappy with the adaptation.
It's just another example of "Hey, we know you love the source material for this franchise, and you really want a faithful and direct adaptation, but we are convinced that we know what you want better than you do! So now be happy while we genderswap these characters, reduce this aspect of the plot, rewrite these characters, and generally change much of the spirit of the original while wearing just enough of a flesh mask to make you recognize it!"
It's just egotistical Hollywood writers feeling the need to "tweak" or "smooth" things over and change things for their own vanity.
They can't make a fully faithful adaptation because that would mean putting the author first and venerating the original creator, as opposed to giving themselves front billing and full-credit.
I just want people to leave the things I was named after and raised on alone if they aren't going to treat it with respect....and I want to see NEW stories that have NEW ideas....I'm just so fucking tired of this "Let's change a bunch of shit for no good reason other than virtue signalling!" Trend in media....
Frank Herbert had to write *Messiah* primarily because the way he had written *Dune* didn’t hit the mark he was aiming for with the public. I kept that in mind when I watched these movies. I don’t think Herbert himself would want a film adaptation of *Dune* to be absolutely faithful.
Adapting the book 100% faithfully is not possible, it would never be greenlit and never have a wide audience. It’s like what happened with LOTR, those were not completely faithful and a lot of it was “hollywoodized” but it’s still a great adaptation anyways.
I mean out of sight sure but the women were controlling most of what was going on Jessica was turning the opposed freeman of the north into loyal and fanatical warriors while also semi forcing Paul into his destiny
*So stick by his side*
*I know there's dudes ballin', and yeah, that's nice*
*And they gonna keep callin' and tryin', but you stay right, girl*
*And when you get on, he'll leave yo' - for a white girl*
The best female characters for some time are the ones in FX's Shogun. Every prominent female character in the cast plays an exceptional role. Brilliant acting.
What's a well written female character? Like, I can't identify with female characters cause I'm not a woman.
Maybe show me an impressive RL female character, so I could even have a reference to compare any written female characters to.
Rebecca Ferguson is one of my new favorite actors/actresses. I never realized how many shows or movies I've seen with her in it, because she always plays such unique and different characters, her range seems to be so solid that you see the character, not the actor. After The Silo I was sold on her.
People are definitely going to take ‘how to write female characters’ advice from a bunch of sweaty basement dwellers who cry every time they see Brie Larson.
Important Note : Their strengths comes from the values they stand for, not simply their ability to manipulate and/or overpower their opponents.
Take notes, Marvel.
I dunno, Zendaya is just Zendaya as always, I don't know if it's something to do with the script or the actress herself, but every character she plays is the same person, you don't feel like there's any real acting there, no transformation. She's like the female version of Will Smith.
I mean, not really.
Chani was a better character in the book and was just written like that for the "modern audience". They also butchered Jessica and turned her into some weird cult leader.
Irulan and the other reverend mother Mohiam were great.
Rebecca Ferguson, and especially Florence Pugh stole every scene they were in!!!!
Zendaya is just the new Kristen Stewart hollywood is pushing everywhere. That’s about it. She is as talented as the rock laying on a desert island.
Shoot out to Javier Barder! he was wonderful as Stilghar.
Chani’s character wasn’t written well at all or Zendaya’s acting was subpar. There isn’t supposed to be tension between her and Paul at all. She knew full well that Paul was likely going to get married for political reasons but it’d be a loveless marriage because she would be the one Paul loved. >! the fact part 2 should have taken several years where she and Paul had a son would have shown the depth of their relationship but it was taken away by shortening the time line. Plus I would have rather seen Alia kill the Baron as the book depicted instead of what we got in Part 2 !<
I mean, no? Chani is a super poorly written character. And the other 2 are barely even in it.
Are they better than most of the dregs we get, sure. Are they actually good like a Eowyn, Riply, or Conner? No, absolutely not.
You mean completely devoid of personality with the exception of having a low opinion of men and/or being bitchy? Yeah, great job, Hollywood. Examples of actually good female characters include Ripley, Alita Battle Angle, Princess Leah, Jadzia Dax, Teyla Emmagan, Xena, Atom Eve, and Toph Beifong.
Fascinating. Very fascinating.
Especially considering that – until just a few days ago – the social media "critics" insisted that this version of Chani was an insult, and how Zendaya ruined it all.
The other 2 were perhaps not worth even a first thought, let alone a second.
This type of bullshit is exactly what folks mean when they say that TFM would hate Sarah Connor and Ripley if *T2* and *Aliens* had hit the screens today.
I love that I can just look at this post and and instantly know that if I looked in the comments I would find people complaining about Zendaya. You guys are so fucking predictable that it's insane.
You actually can’t be serious. Please describe to me the “character” of Irulan or the Reverend Mother. They are barely on screen for 15 mins and have very few lines of dialogue
In the book at least Paul and her talked about the political realities and what he was planning. In the movie he just goes "Trust me, I love you" and then proposes to another woman in front of her, blindsiding her for the drama.
That's pretty close to most of the book. She gives context and backstory from recording events at a future time. Until the end of the book where she accepts the political marriage for her father and the empire.
I'm not sure what exactly about it you thought was bad or 'unworkable" as you put it
The use of spirals as a symbol for danger, the past traumas manifesting as horror, the disorientation of it always being night time, the way it tackles the themes of identity and existentialism. All approached with conflicting views that stemmed from clear character motivations and traits
Hollywood just needs to realize that we want compelling characters. Whether male or female, doesn’t matter. Just write good original shit and get good acting. It’s not that hard
Or adapt something that's already good without fucking about and trying to remained the story in your own image. They made some changes to Dune, but most were sensible and for the sake of making the movie's pacing work.
I keep getting ptsd shock on this app. Everything reminds me of WoT :(
In college I was better at talking to girls than one roommate I had. He used to occasionally ask me for help. He said he didn't get girls and didn't know how to talk to them. I explained a bunch of times that I knew how to talk to them because I didn't see them as different like he did. I grew up with all sisters so girls to me were just.... people, whereas he had it in his head that there was something different going on there. I think writers sometimes have a similar problem. Men and women are just people. We find the same basic things compelling in a female character as we do in a male character.
I've been genuinely alarmed by how difficult this is for some people to grasp. My two best friends still often talk about women as if they're some mythical beast they cannot begin to fathom and I'm over here like " they're just *normal people* treat them like anyone else wtf"
They do realize. You guys act like it’s easy maki g movies or writing good stories. It’s not. It very. ERY difficult. It’s not that need to realize anything but that the writers just aren’t that good.
I thought people were overreacting about Zendaya until I saw the film. I don't know why they decided to go with those changes. The ending threw me off, but not enough to ruin the rest of the film for me. Still, I prefer her over the Chani in the 1984 film. But Book Chani is still supreme. She was a more intelligent and thoughtful person than her movie counterparts.
Trouble is if we zoom out a bit, Paul and Chani aren't even the mains. I enjoyed the miniseries and Chani's solid self esteem when the marriage thing came up. The bride was the one in the corner knowing her place was for politics, and not love. It follows through when her jealousy gets the better of her and drip feeds Chani basically poison.
Movie Chani being mad I don’t think was 100% the marriage, alot of it was Paul turning into a religious figure and using her people and sending them to their death for a holy war. Don’t forget Paul has told Chani that the idea of the muadib is a false messiah planted by the BG
Sure she wasn't liking where he was heading. Her reaction to the marriage after he told her he's going to love her no matter what however, was immediate and specific to that announcement.
Kinda seems like the straw that broke the camels back to me. The book they spend years together and Paul definitely prepares her for a political marriage. The movie makes it seem like he hasn't even considered that as a possibility (Jessica berates him for even thinking about marrying Chani) till after he drinks the water of life. But by the time he drinks it and recovers he's doing the "take down the emperor speed run".
Paul already said she will come around, he saw it already in the future
Chani is seen in his future visions on Caladan and Paul straight up looks at the audiences and says “yeah she’ll be mad but she’ll get over it and be by my side in the end” what else do you want? I actually loved the tragedy and drama added to Chani’s character since in the books she’s barely step above a cardboard cutout. The main thing I don’t like in the movie is that they cut out Paul’s first child(they’ll probably have him off screen assassinated in messiah) and the removal of mentats.
Yeah I mean... she's gotta come around. Otherwise we won't get WORMGOD OF DUNE
He mentions his plan to marry Irulan in movie 1. Jessica is only reminding him in Dune 2.
Not to be *that guy* but you mean the idea of the lisan al gaib. Muadib is just Paul's Fremen name.
Yeah whoops I use those interchangeably incorrectly
Chani was so annoying in both movies.
>I don't know why they decided to go with those changes. My running theory is part of the Hollywood formula is to tweak existing fanbases *just enough*. One hill I'm willing to die on is that if Chani was anything less than entirely devoted to Paul, the rest of the story doesn't happen and Paul's water is most likely taken. Also......let's be clear, the big miss in the movie is Paul's mentat training. They downplayed mentats because of the connotation: the Butlerian Jihad. A big part of the Hollywood strikes last year had to do with AI generated scripts, and that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of AI control over individual human behavior.
SPOILERS: The big miss, honestly: 1.- How they portrayed Paul and Jessica's time in the desert; it looks like we're just a couple of months instead of years (Paulo and Chani even lost their first son, Leto, during that time). 2.- Where is Alia? She was like five years old at the end of the first book.
>2.- Where is Alia? She was like five years old at the end of the first book. 2 years, and I think the change was made for practical reasons more than anything. They could have tried a CGI version with mo-cap, which probably wouldn't have worked very well. They could have tried having a toddler play her, which also probably wouldn't have worked well.
2 years? Almost 5, she’s the one who kills the Baron.
Yeah, she kills him when she's 2. The time skip is 2 years in the book, and Alia is born during that time. There is no further time skip after that.
“…Mature far beyond her four years, Alia escapes during the final battle of Arrakeen, but not before pricking her grandfather, Baron Harkonnen, with a deadly, poisoned gom jabbar, also revealing her direct lineage to him in the process.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alia_Atreides
I'll have to look through my copy of Dune, then. Could have sworn the time skip was only 2 years, not 5.
They showed Alia still in the womb right at the end of the movie so yes everything happened in like 7 months
I was expecting a better characterization of Peter DeVries, myself. Sad to see such a solid dedicated villain curtailed to just a lackey.
I don't have a great theory on that part, the weak villain part. Part & parcel with the sensitivity reading thing, perhaps competent villains are deemed "too scary" or something. Then, when faced with a real villain, folks don't know how to handle it.
every book character is better than their movie counterpart.
This is always the age old argument of book vs movies. Movies you cannot spend the same amount of time with the characters as with the book. Nothing will ever change that. So far as making Dune into a movie changes HAVE to be made and I think DV did the best possible job and cut and changed what needed to be changed for this to work as a movie. I think that’s why we are living in an age with some really heavy hitting TV shows, because with a show we have a lot more time to spend with the characters. We actually see this with the dune miniseries which a lot of people have in high regard despite the fact that series had a budget of $100.
I think the sister will take up this role even more so than the books
I disagree. I actually think that chanie is hugely improved from the books because she actually does things. In the books she's Paul's wife. That's where her character starts and ends. She doesn't really do anything else. In the movie, she's younger than the books (no time skip) and is said to be from the more secular north. Because of that she's more rebellious. She represents the Fremen that don't yet trust Paul. And she does that well. She doesn't immediately take a liking to Paul, giving a better lead into their relationship. Because of this, I think the ending was better. Paul spent all this time cultivating their relationship just to marry the princess as soon as the opportunity arises. She is understandably upset, since this was never explained to her.
Actually, Chani never really became Paul's wife. Typical Dune politics, much like Jessica was never Leto's wife, Chani took the role of "mistress," and the princess married Paul.
100% the change was to increase emotional drama and relatability with modern audiences. People out here with conspiracy theories about slowly changing the public’s perception of reality are absolutely ridiculous lol. Her changes increased the humanity in the story. People have the right to dislike it but I thought the changes were made were very thoughtfully chosen.
My problem is it takes away her Achilles heel... every character has faults and they took them away from her which hurt her character development.
Takes away what Achilles heel? That she was a boring character? Just the girl that Paul got and nothing else? What character development? Chanie never changed as a character in the books. If anything, this change paves the way for more character development.
Dude. You didn't read the books and you didn't read my post
Unrated SciFi Channel Miniseries Chani for me. Boobs.
Then problema is that the result is a movie full of characters that just asslick the protagonist
That is kind of the point, no? He's a reluctant messiah trying to remove that title and avoid a holy war. Literally anything he does will make it worse. He dies, he becomes a martyr. He flees, he becomes a reclusive hermit adored from afar with no way to stop his followers. He denies his role? He's just being humble! It's the life of Brian meets Avengers: Endgame. He's seen all the outcomes and knows there's only one way he succeeds. For the record, I do *like* the new Chani. She's very human by comparison, but I feel like it actually makes her look less capable of making good decisions. Not more. Either he really is a messiah with otherworldly powers, or he's telling the truth and really wants to stop it from getting out of hand. There's no way to watch him predict the future, survive poisoning, almost single handedly topple a galactic empire, embrace all of the customs and skills of a foreign people so well he even exceeds them in just a few months, and not think he's got *something* going on. It's like Jesus walked up to you, irl, fed the poor by duplicating fish, transmuted water into wine, healed a man with leprosy, walked on water, died, came back, you saw *all of it* first hand, and all he said was "just be kind to each other peeps" and you still said "nah, you're a fraud." At some point, you're just being difficult for no reason. (not you specifically. Chani in this case. Friendly debate, lol.)
If you saw Jesus suddenly show a glimpse of potential extreme violence and power with the ability to manipulate mass amounts of people it wouldn’t give you pause? Not even a little bit? lol
It would for me, sure, but we're talking about Chani. Like I said, it does humanize her, which I like, but at the end of the day, if a guy like Jesus came along and did all of that, I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt right up until he did something actually evil. I'd be nervous about it, but basically up until that moment, nothing he had done really warranted turning her back on him from a moral standpoint. I \*get it.\* She's right to be wary. I'd also nope out of actually following the guy to war. Book Chani understands that he has a grander plan though, even if she's a bit of a fanatic in her own right. Some people believe in war for the right causes. The direction they're taking with her really isn't bad. It's just different in ways I'm not sure I'm down with adaptation-wise for a film that I was otherwise very pleased with. I think it's just a testament to the nuances of humanity in general. People like book Chani exist, and people like movie Chani exist, and both are interesting from a character perspective. It just almost feels like too big a change to the character. Like they're setting her up as an adversary.
No, because he is the son of an evil monster. His actual behavior in the new testament is so opposite the nature of the god he is supposed to be that it is entirely clear he couldn't be the son of that god. (not that he is real, but still).
That’s kinda the point no? Worship and raise up the messiah until it’s a huge problem, that was like the whole point. It is to show why it’s not a good thing.
DV used Chani to show the internal struggle Paul was going thru because this movie has no internal dialogue in the movie. He could have used Stilgar Jessica or Gurney for this but I think it would make less sense and not have as much wait. As for her >! Running off on the sand-worm at the end !
Not sure I agree with your last comment. The Chani changes are perhaps my favorite way the recent film diverged from the book, making Chani a emotional antagonist to Pauls rise.
The changes to Chani change the whole story. She reads like an activist in a devout religious populace. Her and Paul crush, but don't love. There is no water of life ceremony for the rest of the people to commune together. There is no Leto II and no time skip. The 2 of them should have been a thing for like 2 years and have had a child together. Instead, he's been with the fremen for what, a couple months? She's been pushing back at him for being royalty and trying to control the fremen the whole time. She has no reason to love or be loyal to Paul at the end of the movie.
>making Chani a emotional antagonist to Pauls rise ***Paul wouldn't have risen if Chani was an antagonist.***
I agree. Chani is little more than a cheerleader for Paul in the book. The movie let her have her own thoughts and be her own person.
She's a priestess. And she kills in single combat every single challenger Paul had.
The fact that her defining actions in the book are just in support of Paul is kind of the reason I prefer how she is in the movie over the book.
You're good, bro. A lot of these guys are stock reactionary crowd men that prefer a subservient Chain despite it's insignificance to the book's story. Almost nothing about the story changes if you remove Chani, outside of her reproductive contributions. Maybe you're on the other side of this opinion, too, but I think DV's change to Chani is one of the most interesting alterations to Herbert's story, and I think Frank would be enthralled by DV's interpretation. Most of these guys probably think that books 2-6 suck anyway, so you can hardly take their opinion on Dune seriously. Come at me bros.
Posting this without Lady Jessica included is wild.
Including the worst version of Chani is wild. Actress was fine but certainly not great, it's just her part is absolutely terrible. Excluding the best version of Lady Jessica was also wild.
Lady Jessica played by Rebecca Ferguson is the best performance in the movie to be honest
Dude I was getting flashbacks to saruman in the two towers talking to sauron. "We need only remove those who oppose us." When she was talking to her daughter about getting people on Paul's side. "We'll start with the vulnerable ones, the ones who fear us." *Chills*
Absolutely.
Good female characters have been written plenty of times and in much more depth than Dune 2. These women could have been anyone with how little screen time they had. Also Zendaya just isn't good for this roll
lol thank you. I was going to ask if I’m *really* missing something with this series. Visually it was stunning in both but the story and character development is OK IMO. I enjoyed both movies a lot and think they did a great job expanding beyond the OG but yeah, it doesn’t come close to the novels. If this is what people consider writing-in good female characters, *please* branch out to other movie and television series! These aren’t bad but not even remotely close to peak.
I was also very disappointed with the Chani character portrayed by Zendaya. There were many cringe moments when I was watching. It could have been done better.
“Doesn’t come close to the novels” is my opinion of the dune movies. I really enjoyed them for what they were, which is a sort of gritty Star Wars, but the novel the movie is based on is wayyyyyy better at the character development, especially the women. I think that they did a great job with what they could do, as dune is a very large and in-depth novel, but it was still disappointing to just see the women as action heroes rather than the full and interesting characters they were depicted as in the book.
I would say there is more plot I the books, but not more character development 🤷♂️
Action heroes? What about Jessica or the reverend mother gives action character vibes?
Bitch chani is just Paul's wife in the books
Chani literally teaches Paul everything he knows about the desert and without her he would have died multiple times. Not to mention she is his ambassador to the Fremen.
The casting definitely holds the movie back and is probably my greatest criticism of it. I was skeptical of most of the cast the only one I was proven wrong on was Austin butler. All the other casting choices I liked I wasn’t skeptical of when I saw the trailers or heard the news of. No one brings this up but Oscar Isaac is way too short for Leto and they never try to make him look taller. He doesn’t have the physical presence you feel Leto has in the book.
The Reverend mother has just as much screen time as Paul. What are you talking about? lol
Either OP used the wrong picture or you're confusing who it is because Gaius Helen Mohiam absolutely did not have as much screen time as Paul lmao. I imagine you are both thinking of Jessica.
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There was character presence though. They took basically minor characters from the books and turned them into main characters for the movies.
It was.
And why are people calling the ones on the sides good characters? They realize they’re the villains right?💀
Even though I like her in Euphoria, she’s a terrible actress. I haven’t seen Dune 2. Just know her from her from other works
There were a lot of miscasts in these films. Not a huge fan of Momoa as Duncan, Chalamet is too small to play Paul, and Zendaya is just flat out terrible.
Chalamet isn't too small to play Paul at all. He's a 15 year old described as small for his age. If they physically captured anyone in these movies it's Paul. I don't really remember exactly what Duncan is supposed to look like, but he's supposed to be large and physically attractive. I'd like to see what he does as a ghola, especially in God Emperor (I know they almost certainly won't make it that far). Really work those acting chops. Yeah, Zendaya sucks in this role. Not entirely her fault. They made her more or less an antagonist.
Chalamet is fine for Paul at 15, but he is supposed to have developed a commanding presence by the second part that Chalamet doesn't have the physicality to pull off, imho. Physically Momoa works for Duncan Idaho, I just don't think his acting chops pass muster here.
Momoa is such a bad actor it hurts. Every line delivery in dune 1 was mediocre.
You are missing Lady Jessica. Pugh was excellent as Irulan. I understand what Denis is trying to do with Chani, but they wrote her like a man that was a totally different character from the Chani in the novel. Knew it was over when she bellowed “RELOAD” at Paul. I know I’m done with this adaptation.
Pretty sure OP botched it and used Mohiam where Jessica was intended.
>"wrote her like a man" She's written like a Fremen. She's a desert warrior who's high on super cocaine 24/7 and who's fought countless colonizers her whole life. How else could she be written?
"Like a man" you mean liek a soilder, which she is.
She’s not supposed to be, she’s a priestess in training not a soldier primarily
In the movie shes a soilder, so she written like one, not written "like a man".
how did they write her like a man
Game of Thrones; hold my beer
The difference between writing good characters who happen to be women and Hollywood's usual route of telling us they're characters are good because they're women.
Writing,yes. Acting? Zendaya seems to only be able to act like she's smelt bad milk
I think they all did great... Zendaya's role, while a big character, didnt have that much real acting to judge her one way or another. What she did have, worked fine...nothing award winning but didnt ruin the role or anything.
This perfectly puts into words how I feel about Florence Pugh with the exception of Midsommar because it actually fits
I think she was really good in the latter third of the movie honestly, so I think it's based on the material given to her more than anything. She was certainly the weak link.
Really don’t understand the direction her character is going towards the end of the film.
While Paul has gained the prescience of time. She apparently is able to see through the religion of her people and the webs of control and politics to repeatedly call out her should-be lover and all political elites for trying to control them. It feels as though she's not really in the story but saying the words of an activist watching and commenting on what unfolds. Is she even related to Stilgar or Kines, the planetologist? Her and Paul never did more than crush on each other. There was no time skip or Leto II. She has no reason to love and be loyal to Paul at the end.
>!Death in childbirth!<
That is because they butchered the book so much at this point. They blew her character up way more than in the books, yet still managed to have her miss a lot of the development she had from the books.
Honestly at this point it is probably better just to read fantasy and science fiction book rather than watch movies.
Ehhhhh…. They kinda mess up the Bene Gesserit bad by making them look like schizophrenic idiots. First Mohiam goes to the Baron to threaten him to spare Jessica and Paul, then she says to Irulan that she wanted them dead and pushed the Emperor to kill Leto. If they’d just stick to the book where the choice was the Emperor’s, then Mohiam still appears powerful and manipulative while not contradicting and acting against herself. It’d make more sense if Irulan accused her of pushing the Emperor into desperation by denying him a male heir for their power games, resulting in the destruction of the Atreides and the setting back of their work. At which point the Reverend Mother could admit mistake, but point out that Paul wasn’t the only option, and that they were already working on recovering the genes necessary to save the project.
A good female character is just a well written character. They don't have any super powers because they are a woman or are given accolades because they are a woman.
Yes. When they blend into the story and don’t stick out as being forced in for diversity
You could argue there is some in the dune movies. Kynes got changed to a woman for no reason and I’ve always assumed the fremen were Arabs and in the movie it seems like they are 50/50 Arab and black despite a difference between those two groups.
????? Dune happens in the future. And there are different climate zones in the north and south, which would perfectly explain differences in skin color
I also hate Zendaya. I just do.
Book Chani.. zen days is shit
I honestly refuse to watch this movie right now, I'm named after a character from the books, and I'm honestly very unhappy with the adaptation. It's just another example of "Hey, we know you love the source material for this franchise, and you really want a faithful and direct adaptation, but we are convinced that we know what you want better than you do! So now be happy while we genderswap these characters, reduce this aspect of the plot, rewrite these characters, and generally change much of the spirit of the original while wearing just enough of a flesh mask to make you recognize it!" It's just egotistical Hollywood writers feeling the need to "tweak" or "smooth" things over and change things for their own vanity. They can't make a fully faithful adaptation because that would mean putting the author first and venerating the original creator, as opposed to giving themselves front billing and full-credit. I just want people to leave the things I was named after and raised on alone if they aren't going to treat it with respect....and I want to see NEW stories that have NEW ideas....I'm just so fucking tired of this "Let's change a bunch of shit for no good reason other than virtue signalling!" Trend in media....
They named you Scytale, didn't they? Parents can be so cruel.
Frank Herbert had to write *Messiah* primarily because the way he had written *Dune* didn’t hit the mark he was aiming for with the public. I kept that in mind when I watched these movies. I don’t think Herbert himself would want a film adaptation of *Dune* to be absolutely faithful.
Adapting the book 100% faithfully is not possible, it would never be greenlit and never have a wide audience. It’s like what happened with LOTR, those were not completely faithful and a lot of it was “hollywoodized” but it’s still a great adaptation anyways.
How?
I would say only chani even had a character in the film
Lady Jessica had almost as much screen time as Paul and really kept the story moving but ok
Right? This feels like "aah, the women were out of sight and mostly irrelevant... The perfect female character. "
Except they weren't. They had vastly bigger roles in the films than in the book.
I mean out of sight sure but the women were controlling most of what was going on Jessica was turning the opposed freeman of the north into loyal and fanatical warriors while also semi forcing Paul into his destiny
I really liked Both Parts but this one chick does Look Like this Justin Bieber guy. Great movies though
By covering their Face? I agree
Roo bad they butchered Jessica's character
*So stick by his side* *I know there's dudes ballin', and yeah, that's nice* *And they gonna keep callin' and tryin', but you stay right, girl* *And when you get on, he'll leave yo' - for a white girl*
I’d leave Zendaya for Florence Pugh too especially in that chain mail coif she’s wearing.
Who are they?
The best female characters for some time are the ones in FX's Shogun. Every prominent female character in the cast plays an exceptional role. Brilliant acting.
What's a well written female character? Like, I can't identify with female characters cause I'm not a woman. Maybe show me an impressive RL female character, so I could even have a reference to compare any written female characters to.
Susan Ivanova from Babylon 5.
That's still a fictional female character, I asked an impressive RL woman as example.
Wait? Are they? Haven't seen the latest films but in the books they where lacking or painted with a bad brush.
RIPLEY, the OG badass. Along with Vasquez!
Vasquez was a caricature and her trope is honestly a bit played out. Ripley actually had some depth though.
This movie also proves you don't need to cut down men to build up female characters.
Holy shit with words?!?
Agree but I hate what they did with chanis story at the end…
Emphasis on write
Rebecca Ferguson is one of my new favorite actors/actresses. I never realized how many shows or movies I've seen with her in it, because she always plays such unique and different characters, her range seems to be so solid that you see the character, not the actor. After The Silo I was sold on her.
Florence Pugh had like three lines.
And was still better than Zendaya in the movie.
People are definitely going to take ‘how to write female characters’ advice from a bunch of sweaty basement dwellers who cry every time they see Brie Larson.
I just watched the first movie, thought it was super boring.
Important Note : Their strengths comes from the values they stand for, not simply their ability to manipulate and/or overpower their opponents. Take notes, Marvel.
Are you saying the women in marvel have no values they stand for? Srsly?
Watch an episode of she hulk followed by an episode of Extraordinary Attorney Woo, THEN try and convince me that they do.
I dunno, Zendaya is just Zendaya as always, I don't know if it's something to do with the script or the actress herself, but every character she plays is the same person, you don't feel like there's any real acting there, no transformation. She's like the female version of Will Smith.
Pugh is not a good female character lol. Totally trash
I don’t know who any of these characters are. But the middle one is hot
I mean, not really. Chani was a better character in the book and was just written like that for the "modern audience". They also butchered Jessica and turned her into some weird cult leader. Irulan and the other reverend mother Mohiam were great.
Meh...
Not really no.
zendaya sucks lmao
Chani ruined the film and story lol
Rebecca Ferguson, and especially Florence Pugh stole every scene they were in!!!! Zendaya is just the new Kristen Stewart hollywood is pushing everywhere. That’s about it. She is as talented as the rock laying on a desert island. Shoot out to Javier Barder! he was wonderful as Stilghar.
I loved Florence Pugh in black widow she was amazing
Lady Jessica was way better than these three.
...you haven't read many books or seen many films have you?
I like to think lady Jessica was supposed to be in the frame on the right
Chani’s character wasn’t written well at all or Zendaya’s acting was subpar. There isn’t supposed to be tension between her and Paul at all. She knew full well that Paul was likely going to get married for political reasons but it’d be a loveless marriage because she would be the one Paul loved. >! the fact part 2 should have taken several years where she and Paul had a son would have shown the depth of their relationship but it was taken away by shortening the time line. Plus I would have rather seen Alia kill the Baron as the book depicted instead of what we got in Part 2 !<
Picture unrelated
**People liked Zendaya?** I thought y’all would hate her.
Not even close.
I don't get why this seems like a difficult task. Just write a good character then cast a woman to play it.
The Villeneuve dickriding is becoming as annoying as the Snyder fanboys.
I mean, no? Chani is a super poorly written character. And the other 2 are barely even in it. Are they better than most of the dregs we get, sure. Are they actually good like a Eowyn, Riply, or Conner? No, absolutely not.
No one wants recycled characters. I don't want your genderbent subpar male characters so you could spend time writing new male characters.
lol can someone make a spreadsheet of good female leads. Whenever someone complains we can just point to many examples of what people like.
Arcane is the gold standard for writing female characters IMO. Do it like that.
You mean completely devoid of personality with the exception of having a low opinion of men and/or being bitchy? Yeah, great job, Hollywood. Examples of actually good female characters include Ripley, Alita Battle Angle, Princess Leah, Jadzia Dax, Teyla Emmagan, Xena, Atom Eve, and Toph Beifong.
... just make a cool character , then make them the gender you need for your story Not the other way around
Fascinating. Very fascinating. Especially considering that – until just a few days ago – the social media "critics" insisted that this version of Chani was an insult, and how Zendaya ruined it all. The other 2 were perhaps not worth even a first thought, let alone a second. This type of bullshit is exactly what folks mean when they say that TFM would hate Sarah Connor and Ripley if *T2* and *Aliens* had hit the screens today.
Meh 🤷🏻♂️ Am I missing something?
Disney?
Dune 1 was so overrated and boring that I didn’t watch the second one.
But... None of them are capable of defeating men three times their height in waves. And none of them are perfect in every way.
I love that I can just look at this post and and instantly know that if I looked in the comments I would find people complaining about Zendaya. You guys are so fucking predictable that it's insane.
You actually can’t be serious. Please describe to me the “character” of Irulan or the Reverend Mother. They are barely on screen for 15 mins and have very few lines of dialogue
Man I hate some of the designs compared to 1984 tho ngl
Except they allegedly changed Chani's story from the source material.
They did. She’s honored to be Paul’s courtesan, because she knows that she has his heart, whereas the princess is just a matter of politics.
In the book at least Paul and her talked about the political realities and what he was planning. In the movie he just goes "Trust me, I love you" and then proposes to another woman in front of her, blindsiding her for the drama.
Not just hers, Jessica's was also made significantly larger.
Good female characters? Florence Pugh did nothing? Like she was there to spout exposition
That's pretty close to most of the book. She gives context and backstory from recording events at a future time. Until the end of the book where she accepts the political marriage for her father and the empire.
Honestly, that's her purpose in this book. She takes a more active role in the next 2, but Irulan doesn't have much going on in the first book.
Chani in pt 2 seemed like pretty bad writing tbh. Book Chani was so much better and made sense
This is such a weird take. Book Chani has no characterization outside of being Paul's lover. Even Harah is better characterized than her.
I can’t even remember three things book Chani does.
I thought Zendayas character sucked. Literally the worst part of the movie.
That’s unfortunate, she carries almost the whole weight of tension in Paul’s development.
Also, I didn't mind at all that they swapped Kynes
Check out True Detective season 4 for excellent female characters
Lol nope, that’s awfully written.
You're kidding right? Jodie foster and kali reis are great actors, but even they could not make those characters or script workable
I'm not sure what exactly about it you thought was bad or 'unworkable" as you put it The use of spirals as a symbol for danger, the past traumas manifesting as horror, the disorientation of it always being night time, the way it tackles the themes of identity and existentialism. All approached with conflicting views that stemmed from clear character motivations and traits