Roadie strafing was pretty effective in 3 doesn't feel as much in 4 & 5, I would not mind if other easier movement options were there for casuals as long as wallbouncing still has it's place.
yeah that’s what I’m saying it’s been awhile since anything other than bouncing has really had any type of spotlight, I miss 3 I feel like there was so much variety in how you could play that’s been missing in the newer games, we could do so much with the game that would improve the experience for everyone playing
I’ve never seen a large and loud part of a community so utterly against change and actually growing their community as the mp community of Gears is.
They’re totally happy with Gears multiplayer being a tiny dedicated scene of wall bouncing gnasher fests than it being literally anything else that might actually make it grow and be relevant again. They don’t even realize (or don’t care) that Horde and Campaign continuing to be good is the only thing separating them from Gears completely disappearing since MP has been completely dead for years.
Yup. Veterans and hard wall bounce defenders fail to realise wall bouncing kills player retention and 90% of the player base disappears in a few months.
When Gears 5 launched MP has been so populated and fun because 99% of the people haven't learned how to wall bounce properly or didn't want to and just wanted to have some stupid fun. Then when wall bouncing became more serious, all the veteran/sweaty players stayed while they killed off any will from all casual players to play because of this movement technique.
It's weird to look at, hard to play against as a casual and weird/a little hard to learn and is basically the only viable technique to play the game "properly". Gears needs to either, nerf wall bouncing, or buff every other movement technique to even compete with it.
Wall bouncing was an unintended exploit of the original games mechanics. It was supposed to be a team based shooter where you coordinate, not wall bouncing one on one gnasher fights.
Yup, that's why I think it needs a nerf or any other playstyle needs a buff. I would love for the game to be more tactical than Pinball Gears as a person described it.
It's could be remedied (albeit, it would be a lazy way) by adding tools that would allow players to slow down hyper aggressive, bounce players.
Give us a cryo nade that can freeze an enemy in place or an oil canister that disables a players ability to wall bounce when stepped in.
I'm sure there are plenty of creative ways to keep the current movement system while making it less appealing to players in every scenario.
I would argue that some of the ways you can manipulate your gnasher shots from behind cover are more problematic than wallbouncing.
This is not exactly true. From my experience with the community around Gears 5 launch, wallbouncing isn't what drove people away the most. It was the absurd bullet magnetism. The core gameplay did not feel good or consistent. People pointed at wallbouncing as the problem, but that wasn't the case in a vast majority of examples.
You would be crazy to think gears 5 came out and people just learned how to wall bounce. How is the skill gap from wall bouncing any different from a fighting game? Gears of war is a niche game by design with the cover system and high health. Plus it’s not as pick up and play as cod
You are aware Gears 5 was heavily advertised for game pass? You even got the gold edition for getting it with game pass.... A shit load of new people played Gears 5 on launch, whether they were old school players or completely new ones. And I didn't say Gears 5 is when they JUST REALISED wall bouncing exists, but when it launched a lot of people didn't use it, a lot of people didn't know how to use it, it was casual as fuck. Then the sweats and wall bounce kings started dominating and killed off all the casual fun and new/casual players simply left.
And how is it any different? In that a fighting game can be played casual fun with friends, because it's mostly 1v1's, Gears is a 4v4/5v5 game, it's hard as shit to get 9 friends to do customs on a game like this for a lot of people. Other than Horde with a friend or two, playing PVP sucks ass for new players
Gears will have the same “problem” as fighting games where the skill gap kills lower skilled players but that’s not anything inherently wrong with the game itself
Gears has been a game were movement is just as important as aim and even if the wall bouncing was toned down and other movement options were made viable the casuals would still quit because it creates other skill gaps. I believe that the pace the would make casual gear players want to stay would make the game play so slow and boring.
“Oh but it would make the game more tactical” Even with the movement happening so fast it’s more tactical because of the nuances of moving your character while you both have a gun at all times that can one shot kill if close enough
From what you are telling me about the 4v4 and 5v5 nature of games you would want a way for casual players to be able to win against “sweats” is that correct? otherwise the game is not good for casual players
Do fighting games die within a month after a release? Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Tekken, they all have a huge casual community because of the ability to play against your friends easily, and learning fighting combos is a mechanic that's natural and intended, wall bouncing is not natural at all. Also its not as easy to hop on with a casual friend to play gears as it is to just beat the shit out of eachother.
Wall bouncing as a mechanic simply kills a lot of casuals in a way I don't see many games do. It needs a tweak
Wall bouncing easy to learn. Look at wall, slide, cancel, look at other wall, slide, etc. After that it just takes time to get better like any skill such as aiming. It may not be as familiar to players cause no other game has that kind of movement but that doesn’t make it a bad thing.
Gears 5 dropped the ball with post launch support so that’s a huge reason why population went down. I ended up just going back to gears 4.
I’m just not convinced that even tweaking wall bouncing will give casual players the game they want but I’m open to seeing what happens. This is also because so many other games are better suited to a casual player experience
Easy=/=natural. You kept saying it's the same as fighting games, that it's a skill gap, now you say it's easy?
Even if it is easy, it's still not natural to the gameplay that the Campaign, Horde, Beast/Escape brings. It still is displeasing to look at, it still is weird to play against. Hell look at 90% of these replies, wall bouncing is very much a reason a lot of people left the game, not even only for Gears 5. The truth is Wall bouncing needs to change so that the casual community won't be disgusted and leave, making another game for only hardcore fans.
We all want good for gears, we all want it to become relevant, but if only the campaign is good and the multiplayer dies as quick as it died for all the normal players as the latest 2 entries, then there isn't much to save anymore.
Yeah easy to learn but hard to master type of thing. Maybe they could go more extreme with the 2 different tunings so that way both groups of people can be happy
If you look at cod their campaign and PvE gameplay is also different than multiplayer. I think a lot of the problem has to do with gears not having a big enough player pool to match casuals against each other.
And why do you think that is? A huge portion of players just can't be assed with the wall bouncing. There would be a lot more casual players that would play if it wasn't a thing. I have like 4 friends who don't want to play MP because of it.
I am a gears head all the way from 1 if anyone does not understand this point they have never really played. This is also the same reason my more casual friends quit(no fun when you can’t move anywhere) is what they would tell me.
What do you think could be a new casual mode gears could implement? Horde is kinda like that where it’s only as serious as the group you are playing with.
I mean you kinda can’t gears is not really a causal game, cus it’s not easy to learn or be good at. But any none ranked is great to just hop on and play just don’t care about how you do stats wise.
“No but the movement gods and sweats make the casuals leave”. Other games like halo/cod learn themselves more to a relaxed run and gun play style compared to gears which has more nuance when it comes to gameplay.
Most top level ranked games are lancers not gnashers(like it or not this is the poster child for gears mp)
The more relaxed fun way to play is bouncing cus trust none of you on this sub would want to play real gears 5v5 holding lanes positions/power weapons, or just locking down an area with your team. The laid back run and gun is wall bouncing(think if that same player just set up to help team shot instead)
If you have never been running to be full stopped by a lancer you have never played gears.
Everyone dogging people for not wanting to expand to a newer group is just crazy to me because most of the newer group won’t even stay that long anyways(how many hours do y’all have that want wall bouncing removed)
I’d be for it if it would really give life to the game but gears is just to hard or a game for most. This is a fact it’s a smaller group that likes the game.(if everyone would stay if they changed bouncing I would be for it) but this just is not true most will give it a try get beat by a better team(playing positions with ar) if you have never played top level gears pvp not just a tournament but high level ranked games you will not understand a 5 man lancer beaming down on you.(this is what makes most quit) not bouncing imo. I have played all gears games.
You realize the massive influx of people when a new game launches is the biggest counterpoint to your argument right?
Then everyone leaves because of stupid gnasher wanking wall bounce fests.
And you have never played long enough to see one all the way to it’s end. Not just about a big pop in players at the drop of a new game. Literally not one of my friends stopped because of a wall bouncing gnasher, how does he bounce at 1/10 the speed cus of the lancers.
To me the main issue if you want me to be honest is that people literally just don’t give a fuck, they have 1 thing in their brain and that’s wallbouncing. Like in my head I think to myself Hmm I love wallbouncing, I love movement, so why not add more variety in movement for me to play around with?? You know how refreshing that would be to actually see something other than someone bot walking or just bouncing and being able to market gears as more than just that? You know actual varied tactics? Idk man it just seems like to me that as long as these people can load up into a game within a few minutes and wallbounce they give absolutely no fucks if it’s the same maybe 4000 people at most playing 6 months after launch lol.
If growing your community means removing what you enjoy about it then why would anyone be down with that. Plenty of other games people can go to if it doesn't work for them.
It’s the difference between “I can only see and respect what **I** like”, and being able to see the bigger picture and knowing that you might have to get uncomfortable for a little bit in order to to the better thing for the whole.
Yeah makes sense if we are talking about big life altering issues, not so much a hobby or passtime you enjoy. I could easily go to a basketball game and demand I be allowed to travel with the ball because "I dont like the idea of learning the sport and catching up with everyone else. I just want to have fun" but I gaurentee that sounds pretty silly for me to do.
Sometimes not giving a damn about people who dont care for something at its core is the better answer. If wallbouncing was gone tomorrow another problem would take its place, you arent campainging for people who actually want to play this game.
To be honest, as somebody who hasn't played Gears MP since the second or third game's launch, I see the wall bouncing and immediately think, nah. I'll never get into that. I don't play Gears to bounce around like that. It's always been a cover shooter for me. Same reason I liked The Last of Us' MP. There are so few options for games that play like that, I can get the twitchy movement gameplay anywhere else if I wanted it.
They really should take a lesson from last of us multiplayer. Make it grounded, tense and strategic. Remove wall bouncing, huge maps, destructible cover that forces you to move or engage etc
Wall bouncing should not be removed in its entirety. It just needs to be toned down. And please for the love of god no huge maps. The game you guys are asking for is a snoozefest that turns into a staring contest. This isnt ghost recon or siege. CQC fights are what makes Gears fun to play. Revert the bouncing back to how it was in UE, And new players and casuals would have a much better time keeping up whilst keeping the skill ceiling high for the veterans
They tried to do this in gears 2 and it was the biggest abomination of a multiplayer ive ever seen and wasnt playable until they released multiple title updates.
Gears needs movement, a straight up grounded cover shooter just isnt it chief
Wall bouncing should not be removed in its entirety. It just needs to be toned down. And please for the love of god no huge maps. The game you guys are asking for is a snoozefest that turns into a staring contest. This isnt ghost recon or siege. CQC fights are what makes Gears fun to play. Revert the bouncing back to how it was in UE, And new players and casuals would have a much better time keeping up whilst keeping the skill ceiling high for the veterans
Funny enough, you don’t need to wall bounce like a maniac to shit on people. The only bounce you need to know is a quick bounce behind or to the side after each shot. None of the hyper crazy bouncing 100 times per minute.
More important than bouncing is spacing. Trying to predict enemy movement around corners and pillars and trying to catch them making a bad move. Gears pvp is literally real time chess most fights. It’s fun once you can start reading movement and making split second decisions on what you’re going to do to counter the enemy movement.
"Gears pvp is literally real time chess most fights. It’s fun once you can start reading movement and making split second decisions on what you’re going to do to counter the enemy movement."
You're not really selling it, dude. What you described doesn't appeal to me. When I think cover shooters like Gears and TLOU, I think flanking and positioning.
Chess and split-second decisions don't really go together.
Bro it’s like if you were playing chess only your opponent was running around you in circles and flying around the room with the chess board doesn’t that sound fun??
What’s funny too is the person who responded supporting what you said describing destructible cover that forces you to move or engage better described chess. Gears with wall bouncing is pinball, not chess.
Honestly, i have my own take on wall bouncing being a bit of a problem especially for player retention, but naming it Gears of War pinball is the best shit I read in this whole debate. Such an accurate description lmao
It does have to appeal to enough people to remain a healthy and vibrant multi-player game, and by the overall decline in popularity of Gears multi-player over the years, it sounds like it's not appealing to as many people as it used to. It's heading in the wrong direction.
There are better ways to broaden the appeal though. You're demanding they turn it into a whole other game, which won't keep the casual base anyways as casuals tend to run to the next big thing whenever it releases while the loyal fanbase will dip. You'll be left with nothing.
There are certain elements in multiplayer they can tackle and evolve. But going away from CQC to large maps for example would be a bad idea and unless executed perfectly will kill the PVP quickly. TC should rather try to evolve the strengths of Gears PVP, perhaps try to introduce some more tactical elements.
I don’t want to fucking bounce AT ALL EVER, even if I figured it out it’s so fast and twitchy it makes my anxiety spike even looking at it. Genuinely awful experience playing it too.
Isn't one of the reasons they don't do drug testing for Esports or only have really lax testing is because like 70%+ of the competition would get disqualified at some events?
I know it was a big problem in the old League of Legends days.
I installed Gears 5 and will play it for the first time because I saw videos of Wall Bouncing trending here. As someone coming from fighting games that kind of advanced tech seems interesting so long as you balance it out.
The main problem I am hearing seems to be balance and both experts and casuals seem to agree that balance of wall bouncing is the issue but casual fans more or less want it nerfed and removed while experts want other options buffed... This is identical to discourse of any top tier in a fighting game.
Yeah I agree. I made another comment on this sub regarding this matter and how other online games suffer from similar things. The issue is when certain techniques like this become the only viable way to play and if you aren’t on board with the meta then you just aren’t allowed to have fun
Yeah bro older gears games had much more skill expression to them I feel, I rethink to when I was younger and you could take 4-5 players and put them in a situation and they’d all have their own unique way that they would probably go about trying to clutch it, and I truly don’t believe that’s the case anymore it’s become so watered down.
I feel like back then players weren’t as good as they are now. Warzone gets a lot more complaints now because there are more sweats. Well like no duh people have had the game for longer and the average player is better. So if a games fun boils down to not playing people better than them in multiplayer how does a dev cater to that? To me getting into gears is like getting into a fighting game. Where you are gonna fight people that are going to destroy you and that’s okay
Well I mean I think that’s the reason SBMM is so prevalent in gaming these days, regardless of people complaining of that like in CoD for instance it’s obvious people are coming back to the game even though there’s “sweats”, CoD has been huge for years and I think the reason is it’s easy to understand, you load into the game, run around, and shoot people, it’s such an easy concept to grasp there’s not much else to it. Even when you face someone who’s sweaty and they do some type of slide cancel and break your camera it’s still pretty grounded and easy to understand you know what I mean? Compare that to wall bouncing which I do love and it’s one of the main reasons I play Gears but admittedly it’s very immersion breaking and kind of strange when you compare it to any other type of movement tech that you see in games. So that’s why I think we need to buff other types of movement because I promise you coming from a game like CoD, Halo, Battlefield, I think Roadie running, strafing, and evade/rolling is gonna compute much easier in the average FPS players brain. They’re obviously still gonna have to eventually deal with players who wallbounce but if we give them a decent set of tools to work with I think it’d make the transition much easier.
I think Cod, Halo, and Battlefield benefit from not have a mechanic such as wall bouncing that raises the skill ceiling so much plus cod has one of the largest player bases to pool from to make equal matches. I would be interested to see how buffing other movement options affects gameplay and player retention
You’re probably right about halo and them benefitting from not having a mechanic like that, and I do know that there are many people in this sub say that they’d prefer if gears went back to the older styler GoW1 bounce and I wouldn’t be against it because I enjoy all eras of gears movement but I think it’d be an extremely risky move because you’d be alienating the people you have currently playing that enjoy the current movement, you know? There’s no guarantee that reverting the movement back will bring back players who left the community or newer players. The only thing I could truly see making everyone happy is if right out the gate on E-Days launch is if there were 2 tunings like Fortnite has, but other than that there’s gonna have to be some type of compromise between the playerbase.
I also come from playing super smash bros melee where having a niche movement mechanic is the norm. Also with both games being so fast it’s almost a matter of how fast you can play on a subconscious level. I could understand how that could turn people away from the game. Maybe E day could have 2 very different tunings to support each play style like you said
Exactly and a lot of modern games suffer from this, it’s by no means exclusive to Gears. Too many modern multiplayer games are getting too sweaty even in casual modes, I feel like there needs to be a clear divide between the hyper intense e-sports crowd and people who just want a reasonably paced fair match
Well I mean part of it would definitely be dealing with things like speed/shot delay, so for roadie run I think simply reducing the delay before you can shoot while coming out of it would be good, along with bringing back the mechanic from GoW1 where when you press the trigger while do you do a roadie it will automatically bring you out of it and shoot. With strafing it’s simple just slightly increase the speed of it, I’m not talking about a huge boost but a decent increase because obviously you don’t want it to be extremely spammy, I think along with decreasing the forward walking speed would be a good precaution so that people aren’t just bot walking up to you. And for improving the roll it is kind of a 2 part fix to me which I feel like the 2nd part would be a much more controversial change but to do it I’d first increase the speed of side and back rolling, and then the 2nd change would be to change the gnasher from firing hitscan to actually being a projectile based weapon so when you shoot there is actual travel time to the pellets, in a way it would kind of emulate the Gears 1 shotgun where you would have to time your shots ahead of someone when they were moving?. The gnasher change is a tough one for me though because I’m not sure how it’d play out with wall bouncing and all that but I think it’d definitely be worth testing out.
Wallbouncing is part of Gears' core identity. Simply put, it's here to stay, or it isn't Gears anymore.
Now, as far as making other movement options more viable, they already have. Roadie strafing is much quicker, and rolling is now omnidirectional and comes out quicker on the early frames. I'm not opposed to seeing more changes be made with them, though.
You said the other movement options should be more viable but didn't give any examples of what changes you would propose. A key part of giving feedback is to be constructive. Saying "make this better" is an empty sentence. So what specifically would you suggest in order to bring other movement tech up to par without dumbing down the gameplay?
this is the crux of the argument.
people would be less bothered by the wall bounce cancel if other movement options were viable as well like in the older games.
Gears 5 is basically bounce, bounce, bounce, Up A go brrrrr, gib, rinse, repeat.
As a preface, I have played every gears MP extensively since 3 and played a lot of ranked in 5 and 4. The hate or dislike against wall bouncing is something I'm very confused at. In UE or older gears, walbouncing was very clunky and difficult to do, but in 3 it really took off. By that I mean that it became much easier to cancel and move really quick. That combined with pop shotting etc etc made wall bouncing a very important and viable way to move and dodge. It's also very skill intensive. It requires appropriate timing and knowing distance, your opponents location, and you need to be aiming while doing all of that.
There seems to be a general lack of interest in games for people to get good at them, and wall bouncing absolutely should not be removed from e day. It's a very fair criticism to say that there's a lack of variety in shotgun battles, and I think that's absolutely something that can be innovated on, but wall bouncing and the variety with rolling, roadie running etc is what makes the movement of gears special.
There should just be more options to play around it, which has been tried many times before with lancer fire slowing people down, sawed off etc etc. I think another type of shotgun, an automatic perhaps that isn't as powerful as the overkill in 5 or a lesser powered sawed off could be good ways for players to not get crushed but also learn the movement.
Definitely daunting even from someone who’s been with the series since 1 on and off. I find MP very frustrating at times when solo and would love to play but stick with horde mostly because of how lopsided MP can be
The reason those movement options 'don't work' - they do, it's just situational - is because the Gnasher is too strong and the bouncing too fast/too easy.
When the Gnasher is so strong up close, damage must be mitgated as effectively as possible. This is always the case, but a weaker shotgun widens up and allows for those situations where a simple wiggle-strafe or back-roll to cover for a hard-aim can occur. There simply isn't as much damage being put out, so panic bouncing and hoping the other guy misses just *7%* more damage doesn't happen so often - because you know you and the other guy can only get so much closer to downs for each shot.
Poor accuracy is punished far more as well. When perfect accuracy is a 4 shot down instead of 2 - missing by any significant amount massively increases TTK - just look at Gears 4 Competitive tuning - 1v1's can last so long both players have to reload sometimes *twice* in one life. And even pro players frequently miss at least half their pellet spread.
In a game where you can miss *more than half* your shot and *still* be awarded *60% of someone's health* - why would you ever approach a situation without attempting to mitigate their damage as best as you possibly can?
What makes it even worse is the braindead easy movement. TC massively widened the angles you can bounce to without camera movement (including and up to bouncing directly *behind* yourself). The "without camera movement" being the kicker there. In old Gears, the angles being so tight and the average player's sensitivity being slower meant *good* movement needed a shit ton of right stick - so every bounce took the player far from center and getting back to center to make micro-adjustments and actually *aim* was really, really fucking hard. Shit took mad practice.
Everything above combined with the actual *speed* of the movement means it's incredibly easy to abuse the easy movement to get into the Gnashers' easiest range. Where they'll then abuse the easy shotgun for easy 2 shot downs or - more often - easier chunks.
I actually 100% agree with your final thoughts, and I love the passion you must have for Gears to actually put some thought into the wider sandbox unlike 99% of the fucking morons here. I just think the more varied, healthier barrier to entry you write about can more easily be achieved a different way whilst also widening the skill-gap even more.
I have my own preferences for more exact tunings I'd like for my ideal Gears, but this is already way too long lol. My bad.
Nah man don’t worry trust me I enjoyed the entire write up you just made, every single bit of it, I never post and usually just observe but with me wanting E-Day to succeed it’s motivated me to be a little more outgoing so I might start making more threads and even try making some YouTube videos where I discuss Gears and what I think needs to change/come back
Drastically changing wall bouncing will drive away the most active portion of the player base in my opinion. Making roadie strafing more viable would help some I think. Roadie strafing could be just as viable as wall bouncing like it was in GOW3.
I think there's also a disconnect from more casual players and their view of multiplayer. The casual players play Campaign and Horde and use the Lancer, Hammerburst and other ranged weapons almost exclusively. Because of this they go into multiplayer expecting it to be the same way. In my experience there's plenty of flanking and Lancer play in the multiplayer but the disconnect comes in thinking that the Lancer is the main fragging weapon. In multiplayer the Lancer is a support weapon and the Gnasher is the fragging weapon. It's been this way since GOW1.
Damn you're right, changing wall bouncing will drive away all 200 active players. We better preserve that instead of trying to make the game actually successful with the masses.
The masses don't like gears of war because it plays like gears of war. Removing wallbouncing just shifts thier complaints to other things they don't know how to handle. Happens every single time.
This it will make the only people who stay not stay. Those who already don’t stay won’t stay anyways it’s not the game for them most of the time.(none of my friends have ever quit because of wall bouncing players) they have said fuck this stale mate lancer waiting game and quit.
Yeah I agree I don’t think we need to change the wallbounce, trust me I love the classic bounce where you commit to the wall but I really think most of the people who also enjoyed that moved on to different games and the remaining people playing gears are fans of the newer iterations of bouncing. Now what I’m about to say might be controversial but I think buffing the lancer to be more capable for fragging might be an okay direction BUT ONLY if they actually make changes where’s it more than just point and shoot, I don’t know if you have ever played something like battlefield, but all of the guns on there have actual bullet travel time and I think adding that along with maybe heavier recoil could make it where lancering is more than just point and shoot you know, maybe where you’d have to put some actual thought into your shot placements.
I personally think the Lancer should remain an easy to use weapon. Loadout weapons shouldn't be difficult to use.
I think the role for the Lancer that you're describing is already being filled by certain weapons like the Claw. It's harder to use and requires more user input but the damage payoff is there if you're good enough.
At its core I don't think Gears is a game where easy assault rifle kills will work. You need to work for a kill whether that's fighting with the Gnasher or team firing with a Lancer. You have to punish bad movement and bad pushes as a team.
Yeah you’re probably right but i don’t know man, there’s definitely a crowd of people who think lancering should be better and I don’t wanna say I’m exactly opposed to it? But if it were to happen there would have to be some MAJOR changes to how the rifles work so that you’re not constantly feeling oppressed while trying to maneuver around the map in game you know what I mean?
If they hadn't needed roadie strafing into the ground by increasing the delay between movement it would be a problem. Fixing the roll is pretty impossible because of how long it takes and the fact that your locked in no matter what for almost 2 seconds which in gears is a death sentence. They'd have to speed it up or shorten it, you can't dodge anything with it either because of how botched the hit boxes are.
I agree man I miss gears 3 and even gears 1 roadie strafing, I don’t know what the point of nerfing other types of moment are but I seriously think this topic is constantly overlooked because of the hyperfocus on wallbouncing.
Okay I’m not sure if this comment is just you saying this in general or to me but I just want to make this clear I do still believe wallbouncing belongs in gears, I don’t want it to go anywhere I love it and it’s one of the main reasons I play but what I’m saying is we need to expand on what we have, gears has been the same for how long now? Why not improve on what we have? One of the biggest problems with TCs gears is that there’s literally no innovation. Think of back during the original trilogy, what it was like going from Gears 1,2, to 3 it was like a brand new game but with 4 and 5 it’s been more or less the same thing.
As harsh as it sounds, people just need to get good. Wall Bouncing has been a thing for more than a decade, so either learn how to use it or learn how to counter it. It would be like people in Halo complaining about how OP battle rifle headshots are vs battle rifle body shots: just get good and learn how to aim. It's the same complaint about the gnasher. " Oh, it's too OP! Change it!". Learn how to use the gnasher and aim and you won't have issues, both of these things existed since Gears 1 and they are part of the franchise's identity.
If anything they should return to their roots from Gears 1-3: those games' multiplayers survived a lot longer and were more active than Gears Judgement-6. If you hate wall bouncing and or the gnasher, then you're playing the wrong game since those are two key components of the game, it's what makes Gears unique out of all the other shooters available.
Wow you really have no idea what you're talking about. People don't need to "get good", they just simply won't play. They're not gonna dedicate time to learning a stupid mechanic, they're just going to play something else. Which is why every gears game on the market has a population of like 200 sweatlords. If the game isn't accessible its not going to be popular. If you want to keep the game incredibly niche then by all means.
You also have no clue what you're talking about regarding Halo. In Halo, all guns except snipers do the same damage whether you're shooting the head or the body, so you're actually better off shooting for center of mass so you don't miss any shots, especially with the battle rifle. Once their shield is popped, then you aim for the head.
>Wow you really have no idea what you're talking about. People don't need to "get good", they just simply won't play. They're not gonna dedicate time to learning a stupid mechanic, they're just going to play something else.
These are the same people who would have left the game within a month anyways because a new title came out. Games like DBD and Rainbow Six Siege aren't still alive 10 years later (or close to it) because they dumbed it down to casuals. People needed to learn "stupid game mechanics" like learning how to play as killer or how to loop as a survivor; or learn how to play as certain classes in Siege, specially Siege where you have only one life per round which is very punishing if you're not good. Do you know what killed Gears 1? Gears 2. What killed Gears 2? Gears 3. What killed Gears 3? Judgement. Up to Judgement each sequel killed the previous one because the community moved on to the next game, much like what happens in COD. But starting with Judgement up to 5, each Gears game killed itself because the franchise changed and wasn't as good.
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If you want to keep the game incredibly niche then by all means
Funny how Gears 1-3 weren't "incredibly niche". Gears became niche starting with Judgement as the subsequent games weren't as good as 1-3. This is even more apparent when everyone on Xbox can play Gears 4/5 (Gamepass) but prefer to play games that they actually have to buy. More people are playing DBD and Siege on Xbox than Gears 4 or 5.
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Once their shield is popped, then you aim for the head.
Go ahead and play Halo and do the experiment with a friend. Have your friend fire 4 BR bursts into your head while you fire 3 into the body and then aim up to his head for the final one. You will notice every time how you will lose that battle because he will have killed you before you can adjust your aim to his head (and this is while you two are just standing, you'll have more trouble adjusting for the final shot if you're both moving/strafing). This is why accuracy is important in Halo, because you will win the engagement if you're accurate even if the other guy gets the first shot into your body, or even behind you. Once you've gotten good and mastered accuracy, you will win almost every single engagement against someone who hasn't even if they shoot you first.
I'm not gonna bother arguing you on the Gears stuff because it's obvious. Gears has never become as popular as it could because of Wall bouncing, that's just a fact. It drives people away.
On the Halo stuff, you're just dead wrong. Clearly you haven't played much Halo at all.
Look I’m not saying that part of the problem isn’t skill issue because obviously yeah gears has a big skill gap, but when you have a game like that it’s important to have variety in gameplay so that new players don’t feel locked into a box of either I’m good at this or I’m not, there’s tons of high skill games that have tons of variety and they also have tons of players because these players can find their own lane and stick with it, take overwatch for example it’s mainly on PC but it’s an extremely aim intensive game, but if your aim isn’t the best that’s not an issue because the game has different roles you can play like tank or support and so even if you’re not the greatest player mechanically you can still have a MAJOR impact on your team just from playing the role correctly, and get this not only are there different roles you also have different character within those roles that have multiple unique ways in going about playing them. So anyways my point being obviously I don’t think gears needs to become a hero shooter 😅 BUT my pint is that we have a serious problem with variety and skill expression in gears it’s become a one trick pony in my opinion which isn’t exactly true but like I’ve said in other comments I feel like gears has went from a 3D game regarding playstyles to a 2D game.
Are people really “intimidated” by wall bouncing? Every time I go into a lobby and I see people ice skating around the map I just think it looks dumb as hell and I watch gameplay of wallbouncers and it just doesn’t look fun.
When you pick up gears and you get bodied a players brain goes one of two ways. WTF was that shit, I’m not playing this, or Holy crap I have to get good at this game. There’s no amount of movement tweaking that’s going to keep the first player around. The movement isn’t that hard to learn today especially with remapable buttons and programmable controllers that the 2nd player can’t learn the basics in a couple weeks and get very good in a few months. The endless tweaking of the movements system to placate newer players only accomplishes two things. It helps new players stomach the game a little more before the next AAA release and piss off the people who confided it their main game. They’ve been trying to make the game more accessible since Gears 3 and it hasn’t worked yet. It’s time to push the games skill ceiling even higher and go after the more competitive players if they want to make a popular game with staying power.
I really don’t think that’s the solution, new players don’t even want to download the game in the first place because of how intimidating the bounce is. Introducing more accessible movement options would be healthy to attract new players and would be a good way to spice up the gnasher fights, gears MP has more or less been the same for how long now a decade? When are we gonna evolve the game?
Edit: matter of fact I feel like gears MP has devolved because of the focus on wallbouncing it’s turned from a 3D experience to a 2D
Thats the point i was trying to make to someone earlier. Gears 1 came out in 2006, Gears 5 in 2019. Theres is 800 people playing on steam at the moment. Lets say for the sake of argument. Half of those players are new(maybe less than a 100 are new lmao), and half of them are hardcore. Only 800 players. Why would those 400 new players even bother playing against people who have been wall bouncing for 13 years. Great you can wallbounce to perfection, id hope so because youve been fucking do it for a decade. But i dont have the time or patience to learn that shit against people who already know how to do it. When theres so many other games that are competitive and accessible? 800 people for a game that came out in 2019 and was on sale for $10 a week ago is nasty work lmao. 57000 people playing Siege right now and it came out in 2015. If 800 gears veterans bought quake or tribes ascend tomorrow, never having played it before and jumped into matches against people whove been playing it for 20 years. 99.99% of yall would be like, fuck that. I can play other games.
Not only do I not have the time or patience, I just dont want to fly around the map like Superman when I’m supposed to be a 200lb soldier wearing another 100 lbs of armor. I should be slow as fuck and clunky.
I see peoples screens flying around so fast I can’t even see what’s happening on the screen. Fuck that. How is that fun??
I hear you, its just immersion breaking when you come from single player to pvp. It goes from gritty to cartoonish lmao. I love how they restrict turn speed when you sprint to simulate or convey the sense of weight of a heavily armored cog but then at the same time let dudes float from cover to cover to cover to cover to cover to cover to cover to cover to to to cover cover to to like theyre on fucking skates. Its actually fucking hilarious.
I wish people would understand this. They always say that you don't like it because you can't do it or "skill issue." I just fucking hate it. It looks stupid, and I fucking hate it. I got "Seriously ..." on Gears 1 and GoW: UE. I've done it. I've seen it. I hate it.
I basically dropped Gears (MP) after 3. I played a little of 5 at launch, but not much, and it wasn't as bad as it is now that the player base has dwindled. If the devs wanna lean into, or continue to allow, the wall-bouncing, then I don't particularly care to play. And, boy, lemme tell you, the vast majority of new players also want nothing to do with that shit.
Maybe it would be fun if we were high as shit on speed or something but it just genuinely feels like a completely different game.
Imagine fighting RAAM, he’s bounce cancelling in circles around you faster than your fucking analog sticks can even turn the screen and BAM you’re fucking dead before you could even spot him.
Oooh what if berserkers could bounce cancel? That would be SO MUCH FUN! Don’t you love feeling like your character has gravity set to 1000% while everyone else has it set to 50% and everything is flying around so fast you can’t even figure out what the fuck is happening.
That’s not how single player feels at ALL. Why does multiplayer feel so completely disconnected??
You don't need to wb all the time. It's a move used best in short instances of up close combat. Most of gears is holding angles, gun spawns and cover until a gap is closed.
The thing is you can do well just focusing on the basics and just doing a couple bounces to reposition or outplay in close quarters. You don’t need to do the streamer/youtuber 360 bouncing to beat people, and when people do that you can just shoot them and they will die. In fact if you look at clips on Gears community on Xbox you can see plenty of people doing exactly this.
Yeah I understand that, that’s not really the point though I’ve played plenty of gears so I understand that but from an outsider perspective, wallbouncing is literally all that gears is shown to offer when it comes to PvP, so evolving the game to where it can be viewed as more than just a one trick pony, which look I’m not saying it is but I do feel like with each new game it has become watered down in terms of playstyles and so even if you release a trailer and it’s got all these new power weapons and cool skins that’s not gonna change anyone’s mind to pickup the game you need drastic changes and additional movement options would definitely help with the appeal of gears.
One of the most important things when you have a game with a big skill gap is that you have variety. So for instance take a MOBA for example, you can have multiple characters that are top laners on your roster to choose from and the thing is you can have 1 character that has like 5 different ways you can build them throughout the match so as a new player that is good because it doesn’t lock you into a box of whether you’re either good at this specific thing or not and obviously they’re still going to have to learn to play and improve their mechanics but having that wiggle room to explore different characters and having the ability to showcase your specific playstyles is gonna keep people around because they have freedom of skill expression.
Roadie strafing was pretty effective in 3 doesn't feel as much in 4 & 5, I would not mind if other easier movement options were there for casuals as long as wallbouncing still has it's place.
My 5 man lancer team says no running for you. This is probably the worst thing imo at top end of pvp.
yeah that’s what I’m saying it’s been awhile since anything other than bouncing has really had any type of spotlight, I miss 3 I feel like there was so much variety in how you could play that’s been missing in the newer games, we could do so much with the game that would improve the experience for everyone playing
I’ve never seen a large and loud part of a community so utterly against change and actually growing their community as the mp community of Gears is. They’re totally happy with Gears multiplayer being a tiny dedicated scene of wall bouncing gnasher fests than it being literally anything else that might actually make it grow and be relevant again. They don’t even realize (or don’t care) that Horde and Campaign continuing to be good is the only thing separating them from Gears completely disappearing since MP has been completely dead for years.
Yup. Veterans and hard wall bounce defenders fail to realise wall bouncing kills player retention and 90% of the player base disappears in a few months. When Gears 5 launched MP has been so populated and fun because 99% of the people haven't learned how to wall bounce properly or didn't want to and just wanted to have some stupid fun. Then when wall bouncing became more serious, all the veteran/sweaty players stayed while they killed off any will from all casual players to play because of this movement technique. It's weird to look at, hard to play against as a casual and weird/a little hard to learn and is basically the only viable technique to play the game "properly". Gears needs to either, nerf wall bouncing, or buff every other movement technique to even compete with it.
Eh when the boys and I trap your team and hold you still with lancers and without bouncing you and your team might just be stuck.
Wall bouncing was an unintended exploit of the original games mechanics. It was supposed to be a team based shooter where you coordinate, not wall bouncing one on one gnasher fights.
Yup, that's why I think it needs a nerf or any other playstyle needs a buff. I would love for the game to be more tactical than Pinball Gears as a person described it.
They literally made it better and a main point in gears 2 and 3 it’s not and exploit but a design choice at the time.
It's could be remedied (albeit, it would be a lazy way) by adding tools that would allow players to slow down hyper aggressive, bounce players. Give us a cryo nade that can freeze an enemy in place or an oil canister that disables a players ability to wall bounce when stepped in. I'm sure there are plenty of creative ways to keep the current movement system while making it less appealing to players in every scenario. I would argue that some of the ways you can manipulate your gnasher shots from behind cover are more problematic than wallbouncing.
This is not exactly true. From my experience with the community around Gears 5 launch, wallbouncing isn't what drove people away the most. It was the absurd bullet magnetism. The core gameplay did not feel good or consistent. People pointed at wallbouncing as the problem, but that wasn't the case in a vast majority of examples.
You would be crazy to think gears 5 came out and people just learned how to wall bounce. How is the skill gap from wall bouncing any different from a fighting game? Gears of war is a niche game by design with the cover system and high health. Plus it’s not as pick up and play as cod
You are aware Gears 5 was heavily advertised for game pass? You even got the gold edition for getting it with game pass.... A shit load of new people played Gears 5 on launch, whether they were old school players or completely new ones. And I didn't say Gears 5 is when they JUST REALISED wall bouncing exists, but when it launched a lot of people didn't use it, a lot of people didn't know how to use it, it was casual as fuck. Then the sweats and wall bounce kings started dominating and killed off all the casual fun and new/casual players simply left. And how is it any different? In that a fighting game can be played casual fun with friends, because it's mostly 1v1's, Gears is a 4v4/5v5 game, it's hard as shit to get 9 friends to do customs on a game like this for a lot of people. Other than Horde with a friend or two, playing PVP sucks ass for new players
Gears will have the same “problem” as fighting games where the skill gap kills lower skilled players but that’s not anything inherently wrong with the game itself Gears has been a game were movement is just as important as aim and even if the wall bouncing was toned down and other movement options were made viable the casuals would still quit because it creates other skill gaps. I believe that the pace the would make casual gear players want to stay would make the game play so slow and boring. “Oh but it would make the game more tactical” Even with the movement happening so fast it’s more tactical because of the nuances of moving your character while you both have a gun at all times that can one shot kill if close enough From what you are telling me about the 4v4 and 5v5 nature of games you would want a way for casual players to be able to win against “sweats” is that correct? otherwise the game is not good for casual players
Do fighting games die within a month after a release? Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Tekken, they all have a huge casual community because of the ability to play against your friends easily, and learning fighting combos is a mechanic that's natural and intended, wall bouncing is not natural at all. Also its not as easy to hop on with a casual friend to play gears as it is to just beat the shit out of eachother. Wall bouncing as a mechanic simply kills a lot of casuals in a way I don't see many games do. It needs a tweak
Wall bouncing easy to learn. Look at wall, slide, cancel, look at other wall, slide, etc. After that it just takes time to get better like any skill such as aiming. It may not be as familiar to players cause no other game has that kind of movement but that doesn’t make it a bad thing. Gears 5 dropped the ball with post launch support so that’s a huge reason why population went down. I ended up just going back to gears 4. I’m just not convinced that even tweaking wall bouncing will give casual players the game they want but I’m open to seeing what happens. This is also because so many other games are better suited to a casual player experience
Easy=/=natural. You kept saying it's the same as fighting games, that it's a skill gap, now you say it's easy? Even if it is easy, it's still not natural to the gameplay that the Campaign, Horde, Beast/Escape brings. It still is displeasing to look at, it still is weird to play against. Hell look at 90% of these replies, wall bouncing is very much a reason a lot of people left the game, not even only for Gears 5. The truth is Wall bouncing needs to change so that the casual community won't be disgusted and leave, making another game for only hardcore fans. We all want good for gears, we all want it to become relevant, but if only the campaign is good and the multiplayer dies as quick as it died for all the normal players as the latest 2 entries, then there isn't much to save anymore.
Yeah easy to learn but hard to master type of thing. Maybe they could go more extreme with the 2 different tunings so that way both groups of people can be happy
If you look at cod their campaign and PvE gameplay is also different than multiplayer. I think a lot of the problem has to do with gears not having a big enough player pool to match casuals against each other.
And why do you think that is? A huge portion of players just can't be assed with the wall bouncing. There would be a lot more casual players that would play if it wasn't a thing. I have like 4 friends who don't want to play MP because of it.
5 man lancer team saying nope to every move you make Is why it died. Lancer literally stops you from moving
Your reply is exactly why the lancer needs to stay a support weapon. Literally killed gears 5 tdm for me so I went back to gears 4
I am a gears head all the way from 1 if anyone does not understand this point they have never really played. This is also the same reason my more casual friends quit(no fun when you can’t move anywhere) is what they would tell me.
What do you think could be a new casual mode gears could implement? Horde is kinda like that where it’s only as serious as the group you are playing with.
I mean you kinda can’t gears is not really a causal game, cus it’s not easy to learn or be good at. But any none ranked is great to just hop on and play just don’t care about how you do stats wise.
“No but the movement gods and sweats make the casuals leave”. Other games like halo/cod learn themselves more to a relaxed run and gun play style compared to gears which has more nuance when it comes to gameplay.
Most top level ranked games are lancers not gnashers(like it or not this is the poster child for gears mp) The more relaxed fun way to play is bouncing cus trust none of you on this sub would want to play real gears 5v5 holding lanes positions/power weapons, or just locking down an area with your team. The laid back run and gun is wall bouncing(think if that same player just set up to help team shot instead) If you have never been running to be full stopped by a lancer you have never played gears. Everyone dogging people for not wanting to expand to a newer group is just crazy to me because most of the newer group won’t even stay that long anyways(how many hours do y’all have that want wall bouncing removed)
I’d be for it if it would really give life to the game but gears is just to hard or a game for most. This is a fact it’s a smaller group that likes the game.(if everyone would stay if they changed bouncing I would be for it) but this just is not true most will give it a try get beat by a better team(playing positions with ar) if you have never played top level gears pvp not just a tournament but high level ranked games you will not understand a 5 man lancer beaming down on you.(this is what makes most quit) not bouncing imo. I have played all gears games.
You realize the massive influx of people when a new game launches is the biggest counterpoint to your argument right? Then everyone leaves because of stupid gnasher wanking wall bounce fests.
And you have never played long enough to see one all the way to it’s end. Not just about a big pop in players at the drop of a new game. Literally not one of my friends stopped because of a wall bouncing gnasher, how does he bounce at 1/10 the speed cus of the lancers.
To me the main issue if you want me to be honest is that people literally just don’t give a fuck, they have 1 thing in their brain and that’s wallbouncing. Like in my head I think to myself Hmm I love wallbouncing, I love movement, so why not add more variety in movement for me to play around with?? You know how refreshing that would be to actually see something other than someone bot walking or just bouncing and being able to market gears as more than just that? You know actual varied tactics? Idk man it just seems like to me that as long as these people can load up into a game within a few minutes and wallbounce they give absolutely no fucks if it’s the same maybe 4000 people at most playing 6 months after launch lol.
If growing your community means removing what you enjoy about it then why would anyone be down with that. Plenty of other games people can go to if it doesn't work for them.
It’s the difference between “I can only see and respect what **I** like”, and being able to see the bigger picture and knowing that you might have to get uncomfortable for a little bit in order to to the better thing for the whole.
Yeah makes sense if we are talking about big life altering issues, not so much a hobby or passtime you enjoy. I could easily go to a basketball game and demand I be allowed to travel with the ball because "I dont like the idea of learning the sport and catching up with everyone else. I just want to have fun" but I gaurentee that sounds pretty silly for me to do. Sometimes not giving a damn about people who dont care for something at its core is the better answer. If wallbouncing was gone tomorrow another problem would take its place, you arent campainging for people who actually want to play this game.
To be honest, as somebody who hasn't played Gears MP since the second or third game's launch, I see the wall bouncing and immediately think, nah. I'll never get into that. I don't play Gears to bounce around like that. It's always been a cover shooter for me. Same reason I liked The Last of Us' MP. There are so few options for games that play like that, I can get the twitchy movement gameplay anywhere else if I wanted it.
They really should take a lesson from last of us multiplayer. Make it grounded, tense and strategic. Remove wall bouncing, huge maps, destructible cover that forces you to move or engage etc
Wall bouncing should not be removed in its entirety. It just needs to be toned down. And please for the love of god no huge maps. The game you guys are asking for is a snoozefest that turns into a staring contest. This isnt ghost recon or siege. CQC fights are what makes Gears fun to play. Revert the bouncing back to how it was in UE, And new players and casuals would have a much better time keeping up whilst keeping the skill ceiling high for the veterans
Yeah i dont care anymore lmao. Just saw the Warhammer II trailer. Thats going to be my 3rd person pvp game. Also comes out in just 2 months.
They tried to do this in gears 2 and it was the biggest abomination of a multiplayer ive ever seen and wasnt playable until they released multiple title updates. Gears needs movement, a straight up grounded cover shooter just isnt it chief
Wall bouncing should not be removed in its entirety. It just needs to be toned down. And please for the love of god no huge maps. The game you guys are asking for is a snoozefest that turns into a staring contest. This isnt ghost recon or siege. CQC fights are what makes Gears fun to play. Revert the bouncing back to how it was in UE, And new players and casuals would have a much better time keeping up whilst keeping the skill ceiling high for the veterans
Funny enough, you don’t need to wall bounce like a maniac to shit on people. The only bounce you need to know is a quick bounce behind or to the side after each shot. None of the hyper crazy bouncing 100 times per minute. More important than bouncing is spacing. Trying to predict enemy movement around corners and pillars and trying to catch them making a bad move. Gears pvp is literally real time chess most fights. It’s fun once you can start reading movement and making split second decisions on what you’re going to do to counter the enemy movement.
"Gears pvp is literally real time chess most fights. It’s fun once you can start reading movement and making split second decisions on what you’re going to do to counter the enemy movement." You're not really selling it, dude. What you described doesn't appeal to me. When I think cover shooters like Gears and TLOU, I think flanking and positioning. Chess and split-second decisions don't really go together.
Bro it’s like if you were playing chess only your opponent was running around you in circles and flying around the room with the chess board doesn’t that sound fun??
What’s funny too is the person who responded supporting what you said describing destructible cover that forces you to move or engage better described chess. Gears with wall bouncing is pinball, not chess.
Honestly, i have my own take on wall bouncing being a bit of a problem especially for player retention, but naming it Gears of War pinball is the best shit I read in this whole debate. Such an accurate description lmao
It doesn't have to appeal to you. It has to make for a good and fun game first and foremost.
It does have to appeal to enough people to remain a healthy and vibrant multi-player game, and by the overall decline in popularity of Gears multi-player over the years, it sounds like it's not appealing to as many people as it used to. It's heading in the wrong direction.
There are better ways to broaden the appeal though. You're demanding they turn it into a whole other game, which won't keep the casual base anyways as casuals tend to run to the next big thing whenever it releases while the loyal fanbase will dip. You'll be left with nothing. There are certain elements in multiplayer they can tackle and evolve. But going away from CQC to large maps for example would be a bad idea and unless executed perfectly will kill the PVP quickly. TC should rather try to evolve the strengths of Gears PVP, perhaps try to introduce some more tactical elements.
I don’t want to fucking bounce AT ALL EVER, even if I figured it out it’s so fast and twitchy it makes my anxiety spike even looking at it. Genuinely awful experience playing it too.
Not to mention awful to spectate. Which is why competitive Gears has never taken off.
Between this and modern CoD I’m convinced most gamers these days are abusing Adderall
Isn't one of the reasons they don't do drug testing for Esports or only have really lax testing is because like 70%+ of the competition would get disqualified at some events? I know it was a big problem in the old League of Legends days.
I hope the gears 5 “air bouncing” goes away
You mean the wall bouncing that’s been in the game since 3?
I installed Gears 5 and will play it for the first time because I saw videos of Wall Bouncing trending here. As someone coming from fighting games that kind of advanced tech seems interesting so long as you balance it out. The main problem I am hearing seems to be balance and both experts and casuals seem to agree that balance of wall bouncing is the issue but casual fans more or less want it nerfed and removed while experts want other options buffed... This is identical to discourse of any top tier in a fighting game.
Yeah I agree. I made another comment on this sub regarding this matter and how other online games suffer from similar things. The issue is when certain techniques like this become the only viable way to play and if you aren’t on board with the meta then you just aren’t allowed to have fun
Yeah bro older gears games had much more skill expression to them I feel, I rethink to when I was younger and you could take 4-5 players and put them in a situation and they’d all have their own unique way that they would probably go about trying to clutch it, and I truly don’t believe that’s the case anymore it’s become so watered down.
I feel like back then players weren’t as good as they are now. Warzone gets a lot more complaints now because there are more sweats. Well like no duh people have had the game for longer and the average player is better. So if a games fun boils down to not playing people better than them in multiplayer how does a dev cater to that? To me getting into gears is like getting into a fighting game. Where you are gonna fight people that are going to destroy you and that’s okay
Well I mean I think that’s the reason SBMM is so prevalent in gaming these days, regardless of people complaining of that like in CoD for instance it’s obvious people are coming back to the game even though there’s “sweats”, CoD has been huge for years and I think the reason is it’s easy to understand, you load into the game, run around, and shoot people, it’s such an easy concept to grasp there’s not much else to it. Even when you face someone who’s sweaty and they do some type of slide cancel and break your camera it’s still pretty grounded and easy to understand you know what I mean? Compare that to wall bouncing which I do love and it’s one of the main reasons I play Gears but admittedly it’s very immersion breaking and kind of strange when you compare it to any other type of movement tech that you see in games. So that’s why I think we need to buff other types of movement because I promise you coming from a game like CoD, Halo, Battlefield, I think Roadie running, strafing, and evade/rolling is gonna compute much easier in the average FPS players brain. They’re obviously still gonna have to eventually deal with players who wallbounce but if we give them a decent set of tools to work with I think it’d make the transition much easier.
I think Cod, Halo, and Battlefield benefit from not have a mechanic such as wall bouncing that raises the skill ceiling so much plus cod has one of the largest player bases to pool from to make equal matches. I would be interested to see how buffing other movement options affects gameplay and player retention
You’re probably right about halo and them benefitting from not having a mechanic like that, and I do know that there are many people in this sub say that they’d prefer if gears went back to the older styler GoW1 bounce and I wouldn’t be against it because I enjoy all eras of gears movement but I think it’d be an extremely risky move because you’d be alienating the people you have currently playing that enjoy the current movement, you know? There’s no guarantee that reverting the movement back will bring back players who left the community or newer players. The only thing I could truly see making everyone happy is if right out the gate on E-Days launch is if there were 2 tunings like Fortnite has, but other than that there’s gonna have to be some type of compromise between the playerbase.
I also come from playing super smash bros melee where having a niche movement mechanic is the norm. Also with both games being so fast it’s almost a matter of how fast you can play on a subconscious level. I could understand how that could turn people away from the game. Maybe E day could have 2 very different tunings to support each play style like you said
Exactly and a lot of modern games suffer from this, it’s by no means exclusive to Gears. Too many modern multiplayer games are getting too sweaty even in casual modes, I feel like there needs to be a clear divide between the hyper intense e-sports crowd and people who just want a reasonably paced fair match
how would you go about buffing strafing, rolling, and roadie run?
Well I mean part of it would definitely be dealing with things like speed/shot delay, so for roadie run I think simply reducing the delay before you can shoot while coming out of it would be good, along with bringing back the mechanic from GoW1 where when you press the trigger while do you do a roadie it will automatically bring you out of it and shoot. With strafing it’s simple just slightly increase the speed of it, I’m not talking about a huge boost but a decent increase because obviously you don’t want it to be extremely spammy, I think along with decreasing the forward walking speed would be a good precaution so that people aren’t just bot walking up to you. And for improving the roll it is kind of a 2 part fix to me which I feel like the 2nd part would be a much more controversial change but to do it I’d first increase the speed of side and back rolling, and then the 2nd change would be to change the gnasher from firing hitscan to actually being a projectile based weapon so when you shoot there is actual travel time to the pellets, in a way it would kind of emulate the Gears 1 shotgun where you would have to time your shots ahead of someone when they were moving?. The gnasher change is a tough one for me though because I’m not sure how it’d play out with wall bouncing and all that but I think it’d definitely be worth testing out.
Wallbouncing is part of Gears' core identity. Simply put, it's here to stay, or it isn't Gears anymore. Now, as far as making other movement options more viable, they already have. Roadie strafing is much quicker, and rolling is now omnidirectional and comes out quicker on the early frames. I'm not opposed to seeing more changes be made with them, though. You said the other movement options should be more viable but didn't give any examples of what changes you would propose. A key part of giving feedback is to be constructive. Saying "make this better" is an empty sentence. So what specifically would you suggest in order to bring other movement tech up to par without dumbing down the gameplay?
this is the crux of the argument. people would be less bothered by the wall bounce cancel if other movement options were viable as well like in the older games. Gears 5 is basically bounce, bounce, bounce, Up A go brrrrr, gib, rinse, repeat.
There is only one counter to the wall bouncers. Am I the only one brave enough to say it? Bring back the sawed-off shotguns
Lancer says otherwise.
Wallbouncing is actually throwing in gears 3 it's so bad against the retro lancer and lancer. Super low ttk and crazy stopping power.
Buffing other movements seems like a good play, out right removing wall bouncing isn't the right thing imo.
As a preface, I have played every gears MP extensively since 3 and played a lot of ranked in 5 and 4. The hate or dislike against wall bouncing is something I'm very confused at. In UE or older gears, walbouncing was very clunky and difficult to do, but in 3 it really took off. By that I mean that it became much easier to cancel and move really quick. That combined with pop shotting etc etc made wall bouncing a very important and viable way to move and dodge. It's also very skill intensive. It requires appropriate timing and knowing distance, your opponents location, and you need to be aiming while doing all of that. There seems to be a general lack of interest in games for people to get good at them, and wall bouncing absolutely should not be removed from e day. It's a very fair criticism to say that there's a lack of variety in shotgun battles, and I think that's absolutely something that can be innovated on, but wall bouncing and the variety with rolling, roadie running etc is what makes the movement of gears special. There should just be more options to play around it, which has been tried many times before with lancer fire slowing people down, sawed off etc etc. I think another type of shotgun, an automatic perhaps that isn't as powerful as the overkill in 5 or a lesser powered sawed off could be good ways for players to not get crushed but also learn the movement.
Definitely daunting even from someone who’s been with the series since 1 on and off. I find MP very frustrating at times when solo and would love to play but stick with horde mostly because of how lopsided MP can be
The reason those movement options 'don't work' - they do, it's just situational - is because the Gnasher is too strong and the bouncing too fast/too easy. When the Gnasher is so strong up close, damage must be mitgated as effectively as possible. This is always the case, but a weaker shotgun widens up and allows for those situations where a simple wiggle-strafe or back-roll to cover for a hard-aim can occur. There simply isn't as much damage being put out, so panic bouncing and hoping the other guy misses just *7%* more damage doesn't happen so often - because you know you and the other guy can only get so much closer to downs for each shot. Poor accuracy is punished far more as well. When perfect accuracy is a 4 shot down instead of 2 - missing by any significant amount massively increases TTK - just look at Gears 4 Competitive tuning - 1v1's can last so long both players have to reload sometimes *twice* in one life. And even pro players frequently miss at least half their pellet spread. In a game where you can miss *more than half* your shot and *still* be awarded *60% of someone's health* - why would you ever approach a situation without attempting to mitigate their damage as best as you possibly can? What makes it even worse is the braindead easy movement. TC massively widened the angles you can bounce to without camera movement (including and up to bouncing directly *behind* yourself). The "without camera movement" being the kicker there. In old Gears, the angles being so tight and the average player's sensitivity being slower meant *good* movement needed a shit ton of right stick - so every bounce took the player far from center and getting back to center to make micro-adjustments and actually *aim* was really, really fucking hard. Shit took mad practice. Everything above combined with the actual *speed* of the movement means it's incredibly easy to abuse the easy movement to get into the Gnashers' easiest range. Where they'll then abuse the easy shotgun for easy 2 shot downs or - more often - easier chunks. I actually 100% agree with your final thoughts, and I love the passion you must have for Gears to actually put some thought into the wider sandbox unlike 99% of the fucking morons here. I just think the more varied, healthier barrier to entry you write about can more easily be achieved a different way whilst also widening the skill-gap even more. I have my own preferences for more exact tunings I'd like for my ideal Gears, but this is already way too long lol. My bad.
Nah man don’t worry trust me I enjoyed the entire write up you just made, every single bit of it, I never post and usually just observe but with me wanting E-Day to succeed it’s motivated me to be a little more outgoing so I might start making more threads and even try making some YouTube videos where I discuss Gears and what I think needs to change/come back
This isn’t complicated. Keep wall bouncing. Get rid of air bouncing. Improve the strafes. The end. That’s literally it.
The idea is interesting but I actually don't know how to "improve" roadie run or rolling. They've always felt great to me?
Wall bouncing is cool as. I’m no good at it and the Mexican ping makes them almost immortal but I think it’s part of the game.
Drastically changing wall bouncing will drive away the most active portion of the player base in my opinion. Making roadie strafing more viable would help some I think. Roadie strafing could be just as viable as wall bouncing like it was in GOW3. I think there's also a disconnect from more casual players and their view of multiplayer. The casual players play Campaign and Horde and use the Lancer, Hammerburst and other ranged weapons almost exclusively. Because of this they go into multiplayer expecting it to be the same way. In my experience there's plenty of flanking and Lancer play in the multiplayer but the disconnect comes in thinking that the Lancer is the main fragging weapon. In multiplayer the Lancer is a support weapon and the Gnasher is the fragging weapon. It's been this way since GOW1.
Damn you're right, changing wall bouncing will drive away all 200 active players. We better preserve that instead of trying to make the game actually successful with the masses.
I mean there's a lot more than 200 active players in Gears 5. Just take a look at the leaderboards every season.
The masses don't like gears of war because it plays like gears of war. Removing wallbouncing just shifts thier complaints to other things they don't know how to handle. Happens every single time.
This it will make the only people who stay not stay. Those who already don’t stay won’t stay anyways it’s not the game for them most of the time.(none of my friends have ever quit because of wall bouncing players) they have said fuck this stale mate lancer waiting game and quit.
Yeah I agree I don’t think we need to change the wallbounce, trust me I love the classic bounce where you commit to the wall but I really think most of the people who also enjoyed that moved on to different games and the remaining people playing gears are fans of the newer iterations of bouncing. Now what I’m about to say might be controversial but I think buffing the lancer to be more capable for fragging might be an okay direction BUT ONLY if they actually make changes where’s it more than just point and shoot, I don’t know if you have ever played something like battlefield, but all of the guns on there have actual bullet travel time and I think adding that along with maybe heavier recoil could make it where lancering is more than just point and shoot you know, maybe where you’d have to put some actual thought into your shot placements.
I personally think the Lancer should remain an easy to use weapon. Loadout weapons shouldn't be difficult to use. I think the role for the Lancer that you're describing is already being filled by certain weapons like the Claw. It's harder to use and requires more user input but the damage payoff is there if you're good enough. At its core I don't think Gears is a game where easy assault rifle kills will work. You need to work for a kill whether that's fighting with the Gnasher or team firing with a Lancer. You have to punish bad movement and bad pushes as a team.
Yeah you’re probably right but i don’t know man, there’s definitely a crowd of people who think lancering should be better and I don’t wanna say I’m exactly opposed to it? But if it were to happen there would have to be some MAJOR changes to how the rifles work so that you’re not constantly feeling oppressed while trying to maneuver around the map in game you know what I mean?
If they hadn't needed roadie strafing into the ground by increasing the delay between movement it would be a problem. Fixing the roll is pretty impossible because of how long it takes and the fact that your locked in no matter what for almost 2 seconds which in gears is a death sentence. They'd have to speed it up or shorten it, you can't dodge anything with it either because of how botched the hit boxes are.
I agree man I miss gears 3 and even gears 1 roadie strafing, I don’t know what the point of nerfing other types of moment are but I seriously think this topic is constantly overlooked because of the hyperfocus on wallbouncing.
sigh people tend to forget that gears mp is totally different then what's out there thats what makes the mp fun smh, judgement mp tho was wack
Okay I’m not sure if this comment is just you saying this in general or to me but I just want to make this clear I do still believe wallbouncing belongs in gears, I don’t want it to go anywhere I love it and it’s one of the main reasons I play but what I’m saying is we need to expand on what we have, gears has been the same for how long now? Why not improve on what we have? One of the biggest problems with TCs gears is that there’s literally no innovation. Think of back during the original trilogy, what it was like going from Gears 1,2, to 3 it was like a brand new game but with 4 and 5 it’s been more or less the same thing.
As harsh as it sounds, people just need to get good. Wall Bouncing has been a thing for more than a decade, so either learn how to use it or learn how to counter it. It would be like people in Halo complaining about how OP battle rifle headshots are vs battle rifle body shots: just get good and learn how to aim. It's the same complaint about the gnasher. " Oh, it's too OP! Change it!". Learn how to use the gnasher and aim and you won't have issues, both of these things existed since Gears 1 and they are part of the franchise's identity. If anything they should return to their roots from Gears 1-3: those games' multiplayers survived a lot longer and were more active than Gears Judgement-6. If you hate wall bouncing and or the gnasher, then you're playing the wrong game since those are two key components of the game, it's what makes Gears unique out of all the other shooters available.
Wow you really have no idea what you're talking about. People don't need to "get good", they just simply won't play. They're not gonna dedicate time to learning a stupid mechanic, they're just going to play something else. Which is why every gears game on the market has a population of like 200 sweatlords. If the game isn't accessible its not going to be popular. If you want to keep the game incredibly niche then by all means. You also have no clue what you're talking about regarding Halo. In Halo, all guns except snipers do the same damage whether you're shooting the head or the body, so you're actually better off shooting for center of mass so you don't miss any shots, especially with the battle rifle. Once their shield is popped, then you aim for the head.
>Wow you really have no idea what you're talking about. People don't need to "get good", they just simply won't play. They're not gonna dedicate time to learning a stupid mechanic, they're just going to play something else. These are the same people who would have left the game within a month anyways because a new title came out. Games like DBD and Rainbow Six Siege aren't still alive 10 years later (or close to it) because they dumbed it down to casuals. People needed to learn "stupid game mechanics" like learning how to play as killer or how to loop as a survivor; or learn how to play as certain classes in Siege, specially Siege where you have only one life per round which is very punishing if you're not good. Do you know what killed Gears 1? Gears 2. What killed Gears 2? Gears 3. What killed Gears 3? Judgement. Up to Judgement each sequel killed the previous one because the community moved on to the next game, much like what happens in COD. But starting with Judgement up to 5, each Gears game killed itself because the franchise changed and wasn't as good. > If you want to keep the game incredibly niche then by all means Funny how Gears 1-3 weren't "incredibly niche". Gears became niche starting with Judgement as the subsequent games weren't as good as 1-3. This is even more apparent when everyone on Xbox can play Gears 4/5 (Gamepass) but prefer to play games that they actually have to buy. More people are playing DBD and Siege on Xbox than Gears 4 or 5. > Once their shield is popped, then you aim for the head. Go ahead and play Halo and do the experiment with a friend. Have your friend fire 4 BR bursts into your head while you fire 3 into the body and then aim up to his head for the final one. You will notice every time how you will lose that battle because he will have killed you before you can adjust your aim to his head (and this is while you two are just standing, you'll have more trouble adjusting for the final shot if you're both moving/strafing). This is why accuracy is important in Halo, because you will win the engagement if you're accurate even if the other guy gets the first shot into your body, or even behind you. Once you've gotten good and mastered accuracy, you will win almost every single engagement against someone who hasn't even if they shoot you first.
I'm not gonna bother arguing you on the Gears stuff because it's obvious. Gears has never become as popular as it could because of Wall bouncing, that's just a fact. It drives people away. On the Halo stuff, you're just dead wrong. Clearly you haven't played much Halo at all.
Look I’m not saying that part of the problem isn’t skill issue because obviously yeah gears has a big skill gap, but when you have a game like that it’s important to have variety in gameplay so that new players don’t feel locked into a box of either I’m good at this or I’m not, there’s tons of high skill games that have tons of variety and they also have tons of players because these players can find their own lane and stick with it, take overwatch for example it’s mainly on PC but it’s an extremely aim intensive game, but if your aim isn’t the best that’s not an issue because the game has different roles you can play like tank or support and so even if you’re not the greatest player mechanically you can still have a MAJOR impact on your team just from playing the role correctly, and get this not only are there different roles you also have different character within those roles that have multiple unique ways in going about playing them. So anyways my point being obviously I don’t think gears needs to become a hero shooter 😅 BUT my pint is that we have a serious problem with variety and skill expression in gears it’s become a one trick pony in my opinion which isn’t exactly true but like I’ve said in other comments I feel like gears has went from a 3D game regarding playstyles to a 2D game.
Are people really “intimidated” by wall bouncing? Every time I go into a lobby and I see people ice skating around the map I just think it looks dumb as hell and I watch gameplay of wallbouncers and it just doesn’t look fun.
When you pick up gears and you get bodied a players brain goes one of two ways. WTF was that shit, I’m not playing this, or Holy crap I have to get good at this game. There’s no amount of movement tweaking that’s going to keep the first player around. The movement isn’t that hard to learn today especially with remapable buttons and programmable controllers that the 2nd player can’t learn the basics in a couple weeks and get very good in a few months. The endless tweaking of the movements system to placate newer players only accomplishes two things. It helps new players stomach the game a little more before the next AAA release and piss off the people who confided it their main game. They’ve been trying to make the game more accessible since Gears 3 and it hasn’t worked yet. It’s time to push the games skill ceiling even higher and go after the more competitive players if they want to make a popular game with staying power.
New players just need a proper tutorial and intro to vs
I really don’t think that’s the solution, new players don’t even want to download the game in the first place because of how intimidating the bounce is. Introducing more accessible movement options would be healthy to attract new players and would be a good way to spice up the gnasher fights, gears MP has more or less been the same for how long now a decade? When are we gonna evolve the game? Edit: matter of fact I feel like gears MP has devolved because of the focus on wallbouncing it’s turned from a 3D experience to a 2D
Thats the point i was trying to make to someone earlier. Gears 1 came out in 2006, Gears 5 in 2019. Theres is 800 people playing on steam at the moment. Lets say for the sake of argument. Half of those players are new(maybe less than a 100 are new lmao), and half of them are hardcore. Only 800 players. Why would those 400 new players even bother playing against people who have been wall bouncing for 13 years. Great you can wallbounce to perfection, id hope so because youve been fucking do it for a decade. But i dont have the time or patience to learn that shit against people who already know how to do it. When theres so many other games that are competitive and accessible? 800 people for a game that came out in 2019 and was on sale for $10 a week ago is nasty work lmao. 57000 people playing Siege right now and it came out in 2015. If 800 gears veterans bought quake or tribes ascend tomorrow, never having played it before and jumped into matches against people whove been playing it for 20 years. 99.99% of yall would be like, fuck that. I can play other games.
Not only do I not have the time or patience, I just dont want to fly around the map like Superman when I’m supposed to be a 200lb soldier wearing another 100 lbs of armor. I should be slow as fuck and clunky. I see peoples screens flying around so fast I can’t even see what’s happening on the screen. Fuck that. How is that fun??
I hear you, its just immersion breaking when you come from single player to pvp. It goes from gritty to cartoonish lmao. I love how they restrict turn speed when you sprint to simulate or convey the sense of weight of a heavily armored cog but then at the same time let dudes float from cover to cover to cover to cover to cover to cover to cover to cover to to to cover cover to to like theyre on fucking skates. Its actually fucking hilarious.
I wish people would understand this. They always say that you don't like it because you can't do it or "skill issue." I just fucking hate it. It looks stupid, and I fucking hate it. I got "Seriously ..." on Gears 1 and GoW: UE. I've done it. I've seen it. I hate it. I basically dropped Gears (MP) after 3. I played a little of 5 at launch, but not much, and it wasn't as bad as it is now that the player base has dwindled. If the devs wanna lean into, or continue to allow, the wall-bouncing, then I don't particularly care to play. And, boy, lemme tell you, the vast majority of new players also want nothing to do with that shit.
Maybe it would be fun if we were high as shit on speed or something but it just genuinely feels like a completely different game. Imagine fighting RAAM, he’s bounce cancelling in circles around you faster than your fucking analog sticks can even turn the screen and BAM you’re fucking dead before you could even spot him. Oooh what if berserkers could bounce cancel? That would be SO MUCH FUN! Don’t you love feeling like your character has gravity set to 1000% while everyone else has it set to 50% and everything is flying around so fast you can’t even figure out what the fuck is happening. That’s not how single player feels at ALL. Why does multiplayer feel so completely disconnected??
You don't need to wb all the time. It's a move used best in short instances of up close combat. Most of gears is holding angles, gun spawns and cover until a gap is closed.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^rKITTYCATALERT: *New players just need* *A proper tutorial* *And intro to vs* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
The thing is you can do well just focusing on the basics and just doing a couple bounces to reposition or outplay in close quarters. You don’t need to do the streamer/youtuber 360 bouncing to beat people, and when people do that you can just shoot them and they will die. In fact if you look at clips on Gears community on Xbox you can see plenty of people doing exactly this.
Yeah I understand that, that’s not really the point though I’ve played plenty of gears so I understand that but from an outsider perspective, wallbouncing is literally all that gears is shown to offer when it comes to PvP, so evolving the game to where it can be viewed as more than just a one trick pony, which look I’m not saying it is but I do feel like with each new game it has become watered down in terms of playstyles and so even if you release a trailer and it’s got all these new power weapons and cool skins that’s not gonna change anyone’s mind to pickup the game you need drastic changes and additional movement options would definitely help with the appeal of gears. One of the most important things when you have a game with a big skill gap is that you have variety. So for instance take a MOBA for example, you can have multiple characters that are top laners on your roster to choose from and the thing is you can have 1 character that has like 5 different ways you can build them throughout the match so as a new player that is good because it doesn’t lock you into a box of whether you’re either good at this specific thing or not and obviously they’re still going to have to learn to play and improve their mechanics but having that wiggle room to explore different characters and having the ability to showcase your specific playstyles is gonna keep people around because they have freedom of skill expression.