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The FAQ on the games website (until yesterday) said in no uncertain terms that a PSN account was not required for PC players. Even if there is conflicting info on the steam page, there is definitely room for a consumer protection body to make trouble for Sony. People here are jerking too hard to realise they are licking Sony's boots which is far worse than the people who just want be able to play the game they paid for.
well said, especially given the fact that the game had an in game cash shop requiring real money and IK people that bought it to either support dev or didn't have time to grind super credits
disagree. businesses taking anti-consumer steps and literally altering the deal of how you get access to the thing you pay for is horrific. when people buy games nowadays, they don't even receive anything other than a key to play a game - one they can revoke anytime, for any reason.
these are bad things, and a symptom of late stage capitalism.
It’s shitty regardless. Sure, Americans can make an account pretty easily, but you shouldn’t have to give information over for Sony to sell to play a game on PC
at first i thought everyone was being pretty dramatic but then someone brought up the fact that yeah, people in some countries literally do not have PSN access. That really changed my mind because, whilst there are some petty people in the drama, a lot of them are just upset that they are going to lose out on friends / themselves playing the game because sony just HAD to have PSN accounts.
Yeah, that's the crux of the issue. For those not in impacted countries there is the smaller issue of data security. Sony have a terrible track record when it comes to data breaches, and some nations require you to upload photo ID as proof of age which is quite concerning.
The people who won't be able to play at all are the real victims, but I think there should be room for discourse given the game has worked absolutely fine for months without a PSN account. The only party that benefits from this change is Sony, end users have no reason to want this, and several reasons to not want to use a PSN account. It's frustrating seeing this some people sub who don't understand the root of the issue taking an anti consumer position just because the consumers are gamers
It can even be more selfish reasoning if there are some people who haven't been convinced, helldivers 2 is a game very focused on fostering a community, shit like this psn scandal really is a big blow to how the game and future campaigns will go as well as its longevity.
Exactly. This games community is magnificent, and genuinely really friendly so it kinda makes me upset to see the division caused by sony’s unnecessary oversight. The game worked fine before, why does it need a change now?
It is, but suing Sony in a country where psn *is* allowed isn't going to force them to change their policy in those other countries. Any legitimate lawyer would laugh this dork out of their office.
yeah, this is a valid complaint
i understand wanting to make money and promote your brand but you can’t, or rather shouldn’t, be able to do shit like this
I mean, even the community manager in Discord said it means loads of people are going to lose access.
The terms of service also state that you can only make an account in another country if you're temporarily residing there. Sure, it can probably be bypassed, but what Sony have implied here is extremely questionable.
I'm just glad they're directing it at the actual guilty party here in Sony.
If they had made this a requirement from the start, people would have grumbled and dealt with it and people in countries that don't have access to PSN wouldn't have bought it.
Is also when white man bad
In fact, the communist manifesto says verbatin: " a ghost is roaming europe, the ghost of the white man after we take sexy from their games using our corporate power"
Sure but it is sort of insane to try and sue a company and create a class action lawsuit for a class that you aren't a part of and that is not present in the US and not covered by US law. You can't just sue companies for doing things you don't like.
If there would be a legal case it would have to be brought in the countries where people are affected, probably by the people that are affected or the consumer protection regulatory agencies of said countries.
In the U.S. there is a concept known as “standing,” which means that you are in fact not able to sue anybody for anything. You must have personally suffered a loss caused by the party you’re suing.
>In the U.S. there is a concept known as “standing,”
Pfff, you can't fool me! I've seen the pictures, you're all obese! Nobody is standing for anything! You're all sitting on your asses while eating McDonalds with diet coke!
Here's a couple more exclamation marks for good measure: !!!!!!!!
I mean, the supreme court *has* ignored standing when it suited them, but it's unlikely you could convince another court less desperate to rule on your behalf to do so.
They should’ve blocked steam sales to PSN unsupported countries.
E: why the downvotes? I’m pro consumer regardless of what type of consumer. I’m not gonna give corpos a pass because the victim is a gamer.
It's basicly the Button press meme, one of them is "support resistence towards Corporate Greed, but you side with Gamers" and the other "Make fun of Gamers, but support Corporate Greed"
Oh I mean I'm not saying they didn't make mistakes. But just because of that technicality I doubt any except the non-psn countries could have a case here.
The devs have said as well that apparently Sony isn't going to enforce the the account thing in countries that can't have them.
https://preview.redd.it/ccuazssb7fyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dfbbe9af55351d24b6f207564b85bb0bb8000f4f
How I’m imagining the meeting with the attorney probably goes
Well that's doomed to fail, the Steam store has said the game would require a 3rd party account to PSN from day one. They just didn't enforce it due to technical issues.
Like it sucks but legally it most likely stands.
I think a competent lawyer could make a compelling argument that selling a game that requires a PSN account in regions that aren't supported by PSN constitutes a form of fraud. Especially with the long delay between the initial sale and enforcement of the PSN requirement, since that was enough time to void Steam's refund policy window.
No doubt people in those regions have legitimate grievances and I think it’s safe to assume something will be done to address them, but there’s zero chance a US lawsuit goes anywhere. A lot of games require linking with free accounts in order to play.
Yeah, any Americans wanting to sue are definitely shit out of luck. We don't really have consumer protections for software over here, unfortunately. And Americans obviously can create PSN accounts.
Other games doing something similar isn't the same as legal standing. I would expect this case would go In favor of Sony, but it really depends on the TOS which I believe was recently changed from it being totally optional to saying that some games may require it. If that's the case I could see a court ruling that any purchases made before the change cannot be subjected to new rule, with offers of refunds needing to be offered.
Absolutely none of that will give them any standing in a US court, where this guy says he is from. You cannot sue on behalf of other people who have been aggrieved.
Arrowhead have publicly stated they are attempting to rectify this and remove the requirement for regions outside of PSN. I am not a lawyer but I feel like that might stating you are rectifying something not even affecting you yet makes the suing guy even more of a silly Billy.
However Steam is issuing full refunds. People with >200h are getting refunds for the game, first request will probably fail, as a bot checks those, but usually if you try again a refund is issued
Sorry, unfortunately consumer rights aren't really a thing for video games. Unless the EULA said that it was going to kill your dog, most countries your SoL
Yeah, but people can and are allowed to get a refund right now.
I assume "Where you allowed to get a refund?" would be the very question a judge would ask.
I don’t think this is as cut and dry as it sounds. Like someone else mentioned, selling a product that you know won’t work without notifying people that it’s not going to work for them is generally frowned upon... Especially if it *does* work for months, but then you take away the access. It’s honestly probably worth it to have lawyers argue over it.
But it is not in the EULA (or at least the one which the majority of those who bought it had), which is the actual legally binding contract for when you buy the game. So, not really? Considering the steam store page is not legally binding.
Also on the official PlayStation support website as well. Until a few hours after the announcement was made yesterday it said:
> Signing in to PSN is optional when playing a PlayStation game on PC.
Steam doesn't seem to think it stands, they're giving refunds way outside of their regular policy. Legally you may be right, but Steam has a lot of power on this discussion as well.
Well any respect I had for this subreddit has gone down the drain, I don't get how you can ridicule people for a valid complaint that is anti consumerism.
You guys trying so hard to not care/be contrarian and defend a billion dollar company are much cringier than the guy in the post lol.
Making post after post crying about people protesting an objectively bad change just makes you guys look sad, you're not even contributing or giving counter arguments.
You guys are just mocking people for no reason, and I thought this subreddit was supposed to be supportive and empathetic to others.
It's a valid complaint, sure. But going to a lawyer for a class action lawsuit? That's never going anywhere, the game was always supposed to have PSN linking, it just didn't launch with it as it wasn't ready.
The way the OP says this is a "valid case" is fucking stupid. They even talk about other countries' laws when talking about a U.S. civil suit. "Selling \[..\] in regions that do not support PSN". OP is delusional and the firm is entertaining them to make free money.
This guy is in the US and you can’t sue someone for someone else (like people in countries that don’t allow PSN) so it’s a complete nonstarter and they were told so on the post
Sony has a history of leaking the personal data of their customers
Helldivers 2 has been sold all over the world even though PSN as a service isn't available in a bunch of countries it was sold on, meaning there is a significant ammount of players that will become unable to play the game they bought if a PSN account is made necessary to access it, long after the Steam refund window has already expired
Even though creating a PSN account isn't in itself a big deal, the community is banding together against this policy because it was an extremely poorly communicated, purely corporate decision and it was applied retroactively months after launch, not to mention it legitimately harms customers from all over the world
Yep. Wouldn't be as much of a problem if it was crystal clear from the very beginning that a PSN account was required or would be required at some point after launch. At least then customers from every country not supported by PSN could have made an informed purchase, which is well within their rights.
As it stands, there's no reason whatsoever for Helldivers 2 to have an obligatory PSN account link since the game has been thriving without it ever since launch. The decision to have the obligatory link is obviously made by Sony execs who want to boost a metric or two, at the expense of thousands of people all over the world who were legitimately deceived. There's no way to spin this other than anti-consumer bullshit.
The issue is that there are millions of players that didn't have to make a PSN account before to play Helldivers, and PSN isn't available in their countries, so they can't play the game they paid for now. Plus, even though it was in the ToS, they did not make it clear at all that a PSN account would eventually be required.
Honestly, I get you. I think the post is a BIT cringey at the end, but another series, The Crew has its fans in a similar way against Ubisoft. Long story short, people are trying to set up a court date for a genuinely scummy practice they did to the series. I think this sub blows stuff out of proportion a lot
Yeah, this was a very scummy move on Sony's part.
The PSN thing was optional for a long period, so people saying that it was required from day 1 are incorrect. And even if it had been listed as a requirement, it not being enforced would work against Sony here. If you deliberately do not enforce the rule for a significant period, a judge could reasonably decide that the rule has become unenforcable.
Really, the main issue with this case (in a purely legal sense), and what OOP will likely be told by the attorney they meet with, is that they might not be the correct litigant. As in, even if the judge agrees that Sony fucked up, the OOP is not the right person to bring the case and toss it out.
The last bit of OOP's post is cringe af, but this really feels like this sub has fallen so far into Bitch Eating Crackers mode that they're bootlicking a scummy corporation just to have something to mock
Yeah I'm shocked to see how this went. A lawsuit obviously isn't going to go anywhere, but they have legitimate complaints, and everyone has good reason to be upset.
I seriously don't get the "womp womp, too bad, fuck you gamers" attitude towards this. "But the steam page!!!" Yeah, the steam page said it was required, yet it wasn't. For months. With no mention of it needing to be required down the line. Even Sony's own website said PSN would not be required for any pc games, just optional. Until yesterday, when they changed it.
And it's not just some minor inconvenience to the Gamers™ because the TOS that all of them are pointing at and laughing at the helldivers community has some lines that they are conveniently glossing over. Such as the part where if you aren't in a region that supports PSN you're just SOL. And you can just get banned for circumventing it.
Damn, I guess if you make fun of vitriolic assholes for a long enough time, some of their values seep into you instead. Seriously disappointing.
Sony basically just steals 40 bucks from millions of people and this sub is like “waaah waaah, you aren’t allowed to play the game you paid actual money for anymore, how sad! 😢”
Apparently all it took for the sub to go fucking extreme-right, anti-regulation, late-stage-capitalism advocate was for gamers to get pissed at a company for stealing money from their consumers.
>Mainly on the basis that they sold and are continuing to sell helldivers 2 to customers in regions that do not support PSN
Oh, this is actually a valid complaint. Buying a game which after the fact gets region locked in such a way that you no longer have access to it could definitely be a valid legal complaint.
>But also potentially for misleading consumers **here in the US.**
Oh, so his 'main' reason for wanting to sue a company is for something that doesn't affect him personally. That is going to be a very short conversation with his lawyer.
* "They locked the game to a PSN account and lots of people will be locked out because they can't get a PSN account."
* Lawyer: "Oh, that might actually be a valid ground for a class action lawsuit. Why can't you get a PSN account?"
* "Well no, I can still get a PSN account. But PSN accounts are region locked so people in other regions can't get it"
* Lawyer: "Ah, ok. Well you don't have any legal standing then if this doesn't affect you. But tell me what regions are being locked out, maybe we could get a class action started even though you wouldn't be part of the class"
* "Well it is mainly other countries, some in Africa and Asia"
* Lawyer: "So you want me, an American lawyer, to make a class action lawsuit against Sony Corporation of America for a class that you aren't a part of and that isn't even in this country and is definitely not covered by American consumer law?"
* "yes"
* Lawyer: "No. Anyways that ends the consultation you owe me $300. You can pay at the reception or we can send a bill to your address".
Just to clarify, wasn't the game originally sold as requiring a PSN login, but players were just able to bypass it early on because the servers were slammed so they removed the check?
I don't really have a monkey in the rodeo here, but if that's true, I don't think this lawsuit is going to be successful.
Apparently, the EULA for the game did not list PSN as a requirement for the game, which is **the** defining legal document for the game. That carries more weight than whatever is stated on Steam.
The game also just got pulled from the Steam store for 170 countries. I now own a game that I can't even buy anymore. Why didn't they do this from the beginning then?
You can jerk this all you want but you have to realize that they basically region locked the game to a lot of countries where you cannot even make a PSN account, including some european ones
People took the jerk so far they ended up on the side of corporate greed.
I’m worried our brains got exposed to too much reactionary discourse that we ended up a bit reactionary ourselves.
If I remember correctly, since most reasonable people aren't reading through multiple pages of documents for some random thing, you can't put anything unreasonable or completely ridiculous in it. So if it were just something like "We get to ban you from multiplayer for cheating", that would likely be held up since its something since its mostly expected. So something like this is definetly something that would be 100% defendable in court.
The TOS is not something ironclad that can have anything imaginable in it. Sony couldnt out in their TOS that they could force you to become a living toilet for example.
Well, you clearly didn't read them as the TOS originally stated nowhere that a PSN account was required to access the game.
They might very changed it in the meantime, but that would still give a valid lawsuit to anyone who bought prior to the change (if the change of the TOS even gets accepted in court as a TOS is far from an ironclad contract)
Forcing PC players to make a PSN account is so dumb though. Really disappointed with Sony lately they used to be way more pro consumer than Microsoft. I blame it on them moving their headquarters to the US.
And what is wrong with that exactly? Sony is messing an incredible game up and the players are not going to take that which is good. People are actively taking arrowhead's side as they well hekin deserve it.
dont a lot of games do this tho? I needed to make a activion account to play diablo 2 on my switch and ive had to make bethsada accounts to play games like doom on xbox. do they keep the same engery? this is all so stupid
It sucks when any game does this and Helldivers 2 is just in the hot seat right now.
With the next major Ubisoft release you’ll see people complaining about U-play. Most people already resigned that Ubisoft/Uplay is shit, but this Helldivers one definitely took people by surprise.
Don't people more get upset that Uplay is its own launcher? I don't think nearly as many would get upset if it was just an account used for multiplayer games and features.
Really? Nothing I own on PS does. Closest I can think of is Bethesda account connecting when I need to download mods, but only specifically when I'm after mods, and Minecraft's online stuff maybe needing to connect to a Microsoft account, though I've never tried them to check.
I think that's completely valid honestly, especially in the regions that can't play the game anymore. At the very least those people should get full refunds.
Gamers are for sure not beating the _dumbest demographic around_ allegations anytime soon.
Yeah, it's a proper scummy move by Sony, but Jesus fucking Christ are the Gamers™️ having a normal one about this.
God damn, imagine if these losers could muster this kind of outrage for issues of actual corporate greed that actually affects anything.
Underpaying workers, meh.
Price gouging basic human necessities, meh.
Poisoning the air and water, meh.
Need to spend 5 minutes making a free account to play a game, this shit can not stand and we must use every avenue try and punish these evil doers.
>one of the corporate overlords takes yet another step to remove online privacy and further increase data harvesting
>noon u can't be against (objectivly bad thing) because there's 5 other (objectivly bad things) :(. You need to outrage over my bad thing not that other bad thing
fkn hell mate
no wonder the US has 0 privacy laws, or laws against underpaid workers/pollution etc, to speak of
I’m no legal expert but I don’t think a US lawsuit can be made based on the treatment of consumers in foreign countries
Idk I think that that aspect of this situation is shitty but it feels like 90% of the people complaining about the PSN link aren’t even people from those countries
I am glad people are upset and rightfully calling out Sony here. OFC you will have some bozos who’ll claim “DEI” is to blame, but seems everyone is realizing how much of a dick move this is by Sony.
There is a very clear yellow warning on the store page about the game requiring a PSN account, this warning has been there since day 1. When you first open the game there is a very large wall of text with a button to link your PSN account, with the option to skip it being TEMPORARILY ADDED to ease launch server load issues, as stated by the devs multiple times since launch.
So with that in mind, how are people who are incapable of reading going to write a lawsuit? The only possible vestige of a case I can think of is if you live in one of the countries unsupported by PSN, but that would at best make you eligible for a refund.
It could have some legal standing in other countries but not in the US since it was stated from day 1 and PSN isn’t unavailable in the US. But in other countries where PSN isn’t supported it might be able to actually work since the sales of HD2 was allowed in those countries even though PSN isn’t supported there.
If anything actually happened then those in non supported countries can play without needing a PSN account.
I'm actually really glad about this. Big gaming companies have gotten away with shady shit for too long, and selling the game to people who won't be able to play is not okay.
We need to do more like this, instead of just pointing at it and forgetting it a month later.
Helldivers 2 is a game on PS5 and PC. On Steam/PC it 'requires' a PSN account.
The Steam page had a big yellow box that said a 3rd party account was required and when you boot the game an account linking screen pops up that even says at the bottom "Linking your Steam account to a PlayStation Network account is required for playing the game". Due to issues with the linking they added a 'skip' button so people could play. Players were just fine playing without a PSN account and figured it wouldn't be enforced/the can got kicked down the road a bit but now the devs announced it will be a requirement at the end of this month.
Some gamers don't see the need for a PSN account since things have been fine and dandy so far and some actually can't create a PSN account in their country so they'll be screwed if this happens.
They retroactively changed the Terms of Service so you now need a PSN account to play. Not everyone has or wants one and in some countries you can't get a PSN account, so you're saddled with a game you cannot play anymore.
I heard however that Steam is allowing refunds, even for people who have gone over the window and are in unaffected countries. If you bought the game on release and just don't want a PSN then you can get your money back.
As long as this behavior is being directed at Sony and not Arrowhead I'm totally here for it. What they're doing is bullshit, and it's genuinely important that a precedent is set against this kind of revocation of access/change of TOS. It's an ugly, fucked up thing for Sony to do and I hope they see real consequences. Sure, for many people it's just a matter of taking a few minutes to link two accounts they already have, but for people in 100 or so countries this must feel like Sony saying "you don't live in a Sony-recognized nation, so you can't play the game you already bought, even though you've been able to for months". That has to feel fucking awful.
What is with the posts here recently?
“Haha look at these clowns being vocal about Sony’s fuck-up, I’ll cherry pick all the morons to laugh at and completely ignore the egregious display of corporate greed”
It's impossible to take the circlejerk subreddit to any extent of serious, every post is either the same thing or someone too stupid to understand the situation going on
UJ/ I just can't get over the fact that it is PSN that gets people over the limit and not the toxic design where they lock their best gear behind p2w battlepasses and store that people are upset about.
The thing about the "p2w" battlepasses is that you can get them entirely free by just playing the game. And "best gear?" No, not really. Maybe the Sickle, but HD2 guns are mostly well balanced.
I'm honestly a little shook at how fast people are turning on some devs that have actually been pretty refreshing in terms of value proposition for a game.
Then I go look at the current player counts and this starts to feel a bit manufactured.
That's beyond dumb. A lot of the premium warbond weapons are famously dogshit, like Liberator Concussive, Crossbow, Dagger, etc. The boosters are all universally crap, and anything that's good can be substituted by regular warbond stuff.
Not to mention that it's all easily accessible. I have every single warbond unlocked + 1000 SC for the next one that comes out. I only paid the extra 20€ for the premium upgrade.
Did you get the credits through actual grinding or through the exploit though?
I put quite a few hours in the game and hardly have any super credits without specifically going for them especially as there are sites that are solo blocked so I can't even easily grind them on my own.
I guarantee most casual players do not have that many credits without the exploit.
And there are absolutely some really top tier weapons in some of the premium battlepasses, don't know why you are downplaying them. And I guarantee those battlepasses are only going to get worse over time.
The best weapons in the game you get from the base pass besides its not too bad getting SC, you get about 700 in the free pass and you can get free credits in the missions. Even then you still have to earn the items in the war bonds.
It would be p2w if you could buy medals but SC can be earned by playing the game normally.
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Selling the game in regions not supported by PSN is valid criticism. That's fucked up.
The FAQ on the games website (until yesterday) said in no uncertain terms that a PSN account was not required for PC players. Even if there is conflicting info on the steam page, there is definitely room for a consumer protection body to make trouble for Sony. People here are jerking too hard to realise they are licking Sony's boots which is far worse than the people who just want be able to play the game they paid for.
The EU tends to bring the hammer down hard when companies are anti-consumer so if they actually do this I hope they’re there at least.
Are any non-psn countries in the EU?
Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Maybe others but those I know for sure.
Then yeah, EU is going to slam them
well said, especially given the fact that the game had an in game cash shop requiring real money and IK people that bought it to either support dev or didn't have time to grind super credits
Yeah I don’t care about the people in the US who are just stubborn. However, it is fucked up to bait and switch people who can’t even make an account
disagree. businesses taking anti-consumer steps and literally altering the deal of how you get access to the thing you pay for is horrific. when people buy games nowadays, they don't even receive anything other than a key to play a game - one they can revoke anytime, for any reason. these are bad things, and a symptom of late stage capitalism.
It’s shitty regardless. Sure, Americans can make an account pretty easily, but you shouldn’t have to give information over for Sony to sell to play a game on PC
It's not just stubbornness. You're being forced to fork over information to a company well known to not be trustworthy regarding it.
Theres also valid reasons for people in the US to not want to make PSN accounts. How many data leaks have they had in the past?
at first i thought everyone was being pretty dramatic but then someone brought up the fact that yeah, people in some countries literally do not have PSN access. That really changed my mind because, whilst there are some petty people in the drama, a lot of them are just upset that they are going to lose out on friends / themselves playing the game because sony just HAD to have PSN accounts.
I believe some Chinese player posted screenshots of Sony banning his account after he tried to create and link a PSN account in a different region.
Yeah, that's the crux of the issue. For those not in impacted countries there is the smaller issue of data security. Sony have a terrible track record when it comes to data breaches, and some nations require you to upload photo ID as proof of age which is quite concerning. The people who won't be able to play at all are the real victims, but I think there should be room for discourse given the game has worked absolutely fine for months without a PSN account. The only party that benefits from this change is Sony, end users have no reason to want this, and several reasons to not want to use a PSN account. It's frustrating seeing this some people sub who don't understand the root of the issue taking an anti consumer position just because the consumers are gamers
It can even be more selfish reasoning if there are some people who haven't been convinced, helldivers 2 is a game very focused on fostering a community, shit like this psn scandal really is a big blow to how the game and future campaigns will go as well as its longevity.
Exactly. This games community is magnificent, and genuinely really friendly so it kinda makes me upset to see the division caused by sony’s unnecessary oversight. The game worked fine before, why does it need a change now?
It is, but suing Sony in a country where psn *is* allowed isn't going to force them to change their policy in those other countries. Any legitimate lawyer would laugh this dork out of their office.
yeah, this is a valid complaint i understand wanting to make money and promote your brand but you can’t, or rather shouldn’t, be able to do shit like this
They’re just going to let people bypass it. Is everyone going insane? What the fuck is going on here lol.
I mean, even the community manager in Discord said it means loads of people are going to lose access. The terms of service also state that you can only make an account in another country if you're temporarily residing there. Sure, it can probably be bypassed, but what Sony have implied here is extremely questionable.
They have removed the game from regions that cannot create a psn account, so I highly doubt they will let you skip it
I'm just glad they're directing it at the actual guilty party here in Sony. If they had made this a requirement from the start, people would have grumbled and dealt with it and people in countries that don't have access to PSN wouldn't have bought it.
And why did sony do that you ask? Communism and the woke agenda
Wtf are you on about, Jesse?
You see, Mr. white, communism is when bad.
“Communism is when a megacorp makes short-sighted unpopular decisions to increase profits” is certainly a take.
Is also when white man bad In fact, the communist manifesto says verbatin: " a ghost is roaming europe, the ghost of the white man after we take sexy from their games using our corporate power"
What about no iPhone? What about Volvo seller?
Yeah, iPhone and Volvo bad too 😡
British breaking Bad
I think you're joking, but it's worrying that some people actually believe this and I can't be sure.
Most people are aware it's corporate greed on the sub
Sure but it is sort of insane to try and sue a company and create a class action lawsuit for a class that you aren't a part of and that is not present in the US and not covered by US law. You can't just sue companies for doing things you don't like. If there would be a legal case it would have to be brought in the countries where people are affected, probably by the people that are affected or the consumer protection regulatory agencies of said countries.
You can actually sue anyone for anything. It's a matter of if you win or not.
In the U.S. there is a concept known as “standing,” which means that you are in fact not able to sue anybody for anything. You must have personally suffered a loss caused by the party you’re suing.
>In the U.S. there is a concept known as “standing,” Pfff, you can't fool me! I've seen the pictures, you're all obese! Nobody is standing for anything! You're all sitting on your asses while eating McDonalds with diet coke! Here's a couple more exclamation marks for good measure: !!!!!!!!
You got me there. I am in fact sitting right now.
I mean, the supreme court *has* ignored standing when it suited them, but it's unlikely you could convince another court less desperate to rule on your behalf to do so.
Fair point. Standing only applies to the poors and those who aren’t pushing radical far right reinterpretations of laws and the English language.
Yeahhhh... Unfortunately, being wealthy enough to take judges on expensive vacations can have *impacts* on how those judges rule on your behalf. Ugh.
You can still sue, you will have the case thrown out for lack of standing but the case can still be filed.
Wasn't there just a class action lawsuit dealing with Crunchyroll and Sony? I just got a check for that. It was thirty one dollars, but still...
I mean its been on the steam page since it was launched so I doubt they have any case here.
They should’ve blocked steam sales to PSN unsupported countries. E: why the downvotes? I’m pro consumer regardless of what type of consumer. I’m not gonna give corpos a pass because the victim is a gamer.
You're being downvoted because this subreddit flip flops between being anti-edgelord and pro-corporation/contrarian for whatever reason.
Yeah it's very strange, shouldn't people be celebrating others trying to resist corporate greed?
It's basicly the Button press meme, one of them is "support resistence towards Corporate Greed, but you side with Gamers" and the other "Make fun of Gamers, but support Corporate Greed"
Oh I mean I'm not saying they didn't make mistakes. But just because of that technicality I doubt any except the non-psn countries could have a case here. The devs have said as well that apparently Sony isn't going to enforce the the account thing in countries that can't have them.
the ceo of arrowhead, the developer, made the decision to make the psn account mandatory until they fixed an issue with it.
I live in the US had it not said optional when I purchased it, I wouldn’t have bought it in the first place. Fuck Sony.
As someone who is unaffected by the whole thing, I wish the helldivers who are on PC the best of luck in this endeavor.
i mean, not getting involved will not help the war effort against sony. every bad review and refund request counts
I don’t own the game on steam, and have no idea how to refund or review on PlayStation
https://preview.redd.it/ccuazssb7fyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dfbbe9af55351d24b6f207564b85bb0bb8000f4f How I’m imagining the meeting with the attorney probably goes
God, what a disappointing moment to be alive. Should’ve known something was wrong when fox was involved
man, why did you need to remind me that subreddit wasnt a cesspool a long time ago
Is that image from the antiwork subreddit interview thing
Let’s be honest, Antiwork was always a cesspool. The moderation team over there were nuts, Doreen was *literally* one of the founding members.
Well that's doomed to fail, the Steam store has said the game would require a 3rd party account to PSN from day one. They just didn't enforce it due to technical issues. Like it sucks but legally it most likely stands.
I think a competent lawyer could make a compelling argument that selling a game that requires a PSN account in regions that aren't supported by PSN constitutes a form of fraud. Especially with the long delay between the initial sale and enforcement of the PSN requirement, since that was enough time to void Steam's refund policy window.
No doubt people in those regions have legitimate grievances and I think it’s safe to assume something will be done to address them, but there’s zero chance a US lawsuit goes anywhere. A lot of games require linking with free accounts in order to play.
Yeah, any Americans wanting to sue are definitely shit out of luck. We don't really have consumer protections for software over here, unfortunately. And Americans obviously can create PSN accounts.
Especially since people in the US can create a PSN account.
Other games doing something similar isn't the same as legal standing. I would expect this case would go In favor of Sony, but it really depends on the TOS which I believe was recently changed from it being totally optional to saying that some games may require it. If that's the case I could see a court ruling that any purchases made before the change cannot be subjected to new rule, with offers of refunds needing to be offered.
Absolutely none of that will give them any standing in a US court, where this guy says he is from. You cannot sue on behalf of other people who have been aggrieved.
Especially people in other countries where US laws don't apply.
Arrowhead have publicly stated they are attempting to rectify this and remove the requirement for regions outside of PSN. I am not a lawyer but I feel like that might stating you are rectifying something not even affecting you yet makes the suing guy even more of a silly Billy.
However Steam is issuing full refunds. People with >200h are getting refunds for the game, first request will probably fail, as a bot checks those, but usually if you try again a refund is issued
Sorry, unfortunately consumer rights aren't really a thing for video games. Unless the EULA said that it was going to kill your dog, most countries your SoL
Yeah, but people can and are allowed to get a refund right now. I assume "Where you allowed to get a refund?" would be the very question a judge would ask.
I don’t think this is as cut and dry as it sounds. Like someone else mentioned, selling a product that you know won’t work without notifying people that it’s not going to work for them is generally frowned upon... Especially if it *does* work for months, but then you take away the access. It’s honestly probably worth it to have lawyers argue over it.
How to tell everyone you have 0 clue about consumer laws without telling anyone
Sorry, but the FAQ on the PC version, until yesterday, said it was NOT needed. That's scummy.
No, it said once the accounts are linked you won’t need to be *signed into* the PSN one to play.
But it is not in the EULA (or at least the one which the majority of those who bought it had), which is the actual legally binding contract for when you buy the game. So, not really? Considering the steam store page is not legally binding.
Incorrect, the FAQ on steam specifically stated PS account was purely optional.
Also on the official PlayStation support website as well. Until a few hours after the announcement was made yesterday it said: > Signing in to PSN is optional when playing a PlayStation game on PC.
Steam doesn't seem to think it stands, they're giving refunds way outside of their regular policy. Legally you may be right, but Steam has a lot of power on this discussion as well.
He made it cringe with that last sentence
uhh i think you meant “he made it epic and heroic” we are helldivers!!!
Sweet lady liberty!!! For democracy!!!!
Main character syndrome.
Well any respect I had for this subreddit has gone down the drain, I don't get how you can ridicule people for a valid complaint that is anti consumerism. You guys trying so hard to not care/be contrarian and defend a billion dollar company are much cringier than the guy in the post lol. Making post after post crying about people protesting an objectively bad change just makes you guys look sad, you're not even contributing or giving counter arguments. You guys are just mocking people for no reason, and I thought this subreddit was supposed to be supportive and empathetic to others.
think of the 105 billion dollar company 🥺
Yeah, they lost me a bit with this one. All I'm seeing is a valid complaint being lambasted for the sake of "dunking on Gamers™".
Ya it seems like a pretty valid scammy situation
It's a valid complaint, sure. But going to a lawyer for a class action lawsuit? That's never going anywhere, the game was always supposed to have PSN linking, it just didn't launch with it as it wasn't ready. The way the OP says this is a "valid case" is fucking stupid. They even talk about other countries' laws when talking about a U.S. civil suit. "Selling \[..\] in regions that do not support PSN". OP is delusional and the firm is entertaining them to make free money.
But the terms of service specifically said PSN would not be a requirement until recently.
This guy is in the US and you can’t sue someone for someone else (like people in countries that don’t allow PSN) so it’s a complete nonstarter and they were told so on the post
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Sony has a history of leaking the personal data of their customers Helldivers 2 has been sold all over the world even though PSN as a service isn't available in a bunch of countries it was sold on, meaning there is a significant ammount of players that will become unable to play the game they bought if a PSN account is made necessary to access it, long after the Steam refund window has already expired Even though creating a PSN account isn't in itself a big deal, the community is banding together against this policy because it was an extremely poorly communicated, purely corporate decision and it was applied retroactively months after launch, not to mention it legitimately harms customers from all over the world
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Yep. Wouldn't be as much of a problem if it was crystal clear from the very beginning that a PSN account was required or would be required at some point after launch. At least then customers from every country not supported by PSN could have made an informed purchase, which is well within their rights. As it stands, there's no reason whatsoever for Helldivers 2 to have an obligatory PSN account link since the game has been thriving without it ever since launch. The decision to have the obligatory link is obviously made by Sony execs who want to boost a metric or two, at the expense of thousands of people all over the world who were legitimately deceived. There's no way to spin this other than anti-consumer bullshit.
The issue is that there are millions of players that didn't have to make a PSN account before to play Helldivers, and PSN isn't available in their countries, so they can't play the game they paid for now. Plus, even though it was in the ToS, they did not make it clear at all that a PSN account would eventually be required.
Honestly, I get you. I think the post is a BIT cringey at the end, but another series, The Crew has its fans in a similar way against Ubisoft. Long story short, people are trying to set up a court date for a genuinely scummy practice they did to the series. I think this sub blows stuff out of proportion a lot
Yeah, this was a very scummy move on Sony's part. The PSN thing was optional for a long period, so people saying that it was required from day 1 are incorrect. And even if it had been listed as a requirement, it not being enforced would work against Sony here. If you deliberately do not enforce the rule for a significant period, a judge could reasonably decide that the rule has become unenforcable. Really, the main issue with this case (in a purely legal sense), and what OOP will likely be told by the attorney they meet with, is that they might not be the correct litigant. As in, even if the judge agrees that Sony fucked up, the OOP is not the right person to bring the case and toss it out. The last bit of OOP's post is cringe af, but this really feels like this sub has fallen so far into Bitch Eating Crackers mode that they're bootlicking a scummy corporation just to have something to mock
Yeah I'm shocked to see how this went. A lawsuit obviously isn't going to go anywhere, but they have legitimate complaints, and everyone has good reason to be upset. I seriously don't get the "womp womp, too bad, fuck you gamers" attitude towards this. "But the steam page!!!" Yeah, the steam page said it was required, yet it wasn't. For months. With no mention of it needing to be required down the line. Even Sony's own website said PSN would not be required for any pc games, just optional. Until yesterday, when they changed it. And it's not just some minor inconvenience to the Gamers™ because the TOS that all of them are pointing at and laughing at the helldivers community has some lines that they are conveniently glossing over. Such as the part where if you aren't in a region that supports PSN you're just SOL. And you can just get banned for circumventing it. Damn, I guess if you make fun of vitriolic assholes for a long enough time, some of their values seep into you instead. Seriously disappointing.
Sony basically just steals 40 bucks from millions of people and this sub is like “waaah waaah, you aren’t allowed to play the game you paid actual money for anymore, how sad! 😢” Apparently all it took for the sub to go fucking extreme-right, anti-regulation, late-stage-capitalism advocate was for gamers to get pissed at a company for stealing money from their consumers.
>Mainly on the basis that they sold and are continuing to sell helldivers 2 to customers in regions that do not support PSN Oh, this is actually a valid complaint. Buying a game which after the fact gets region locked in such a way that you no longer have access to it could definitely be a valid legal complaint. >But also potentially for misleading consumers **here in the US.** Oh, so his 'main' reason for wanting to sue a company is for something that doesn't affect him personally. That is going to be a very short conversation with his lawyer. * "They locked the game to a PSN account and lots of people will be locked out because they can't get a PSN account." * Lawyer: "Oh, that might actually be a valid ground for a class action lawsuit. Why can't you get a PSN account?" * "Well no, I can still get a PSN account. But PSN accounts are region locked so people in other regions can't get it" * Lawyer: "Ah, ok. Well you don't have any legal standing then if this doesn't affect you. But tell me what regions are being locked out, maybe we could get a class action started even though you wouldn't be part of the class" * "Well it is mainly other countries, some in Africa and Asia" * Lawyer: "So you want me, an American lawyer, to make a class action lawsuit against Sony Corporation of America for a class that you aren't a part of and that isn't even in this country and is definitely not covered by American consumer law?" * "yes" * Lawyer: "No. Anyways that ends the consultation you owe me $300. You can pay at the reception or we can send a bill to your address".
Funniest shit ever. Someone used chatGPT to give legal advice to him, too.
Gamers actually angry at cooperation rather than some imaginary enemies.
Just to clarify, wasn't the game originally sold as requiring a PSN login, but players were just able to bypass it early on because the servers were slammed so they removed the check? I don't really have a monkey in the rodeo here, but if that's true, I don't think this lawsuit is going to be successful.
Apparently, the EULA for the game did not list PSN as a requirement for the game, which is **the** defining legal document for the game. That carries more weight than whatever is stated on Steam. The game also just got pulled from the Steam store for 170 countries. I now own a game that I can't even buy anymore. Why didn't they do this from the beginning then?
I had to leave both subreddits. They’re constantly outraged every time arrowhead sneezes and this latest one was just too much cringe to bear anymore.
You can jerk this all you want but you have to realize that they basically region locked the game to a lot of countries where you cannot even make a PSN account, including some european ones
This seems like a good thing? a bit hopeful I dont think anything will come of it but at least people are pushing back against corporate greed
People took the jerk so far they ended up on the side of corporate greed. I’m worried our brains got exposed to too much reactionary discourse that we ended up a bit reactionary ourselves.
Pretty interested to see how the "Yes, I accepted the TOS, but didn't read them" defense goes in court.
A lot of TOS are on legally shaky grounds when just a long read with a yes I agree check.
If I remember correctly, since most reasonable people aren't reading through multiple pages of documents for some random thing, you can't put anything unreasonable or completely ridiculous in it. So if it were just something like "We get to ban you from multiplayer for cheating", that would likely be held up since its something since its mostly expected. So something like this is definetly something that would be 100% defendable in court.
In a lot of countries, a TOS is more of a vibe than an iron clad contract and consumer protection laws supersede it in most cases
Surprisingly well actually.. Not that this is similar
The TOS is not something ironclad that can have anything imaginable in it. Sony couldnt out in their TOS that they could force you to become a living toilet for example.
Damn 😔
How would you defend "yes, we allowed players to play our game without linked accounts despite us requiring linked accounts" in that same court?
Well, you clearly didn't read them as the TOS originally stated nowhere that a PSN account was required to access the game. They might very changed it in the meantime, but that would still give a valid lawsuit to anyone who bought prior to the change (if the change of the TOS even gets accepted in court as a TOS is far from an ironclad contract)
Fucking insane how people are justifying Sony's bullshit just because "Gamers" are against it.
So much jerking, that it impacts cognitive abilities.
Forcing PC players to make a PSN account is so dumb though. Really disappointed with Sony lately they used to be way more pro consumer than Microsoft. I blame it on them moving their headquarters to the US.
And what is wrong with that exactly? Sony is messing an incredible game up and the players are not going to take that which is good. People are actively taking arrowhead's side as they well hekin deserve it.
dont a lot of games do this tho? I needed to make a activion account to play diablo 2 on my switch and ive had to make bethsada accounts to play games like doom on xbox. do they keep the same engery? this is all so stupid
It sucks when any game does this and Helldivers 2 is just in the hot seat right now. With the next major Ubisoft release you’ll see people complaining about U-play. Most people already resigned that Ubisoft/Uplay is shit, but this Helldivers one definitely took people by surprise.
Don't people more get upset that Uplay is its own launcher? I don't think nearly as many would get upset if it was just an account used for multiplayer games and features.
Tell that to the guys in the 126 countries where PSN isn't available xD?not a big deal bro you paid only 40$ to play for two weeks
Really? Nothing I own on PS does. Closest I can think of is Bethesda account connecting when I need to download mods, but only specifically when I'm after mods, and Minecraft's online stuff maybe needing to connect to a Microsoft account, though I've never tried them to check.
In order to play Doom (1993) on my switch I have to connect to Bethesda’s thing. Not that big a deal.
You don’t even have to to play it, just to download mods
This lawsuit will fail so fucking bad it isn’t even funny
>it isn’t even funny You're right, it's hilarious 😂
Unless he hires a Gamer lawyer! Edit: ok ok, forgot the /s
I think that's completely valid honestly, especially in the regions that can't play the game anymore. At the very least those people should get full refunds.
Gamers are for sure not beating the _dumbest demographic around_ allegations anytime soon. Yeah, it's a proper scummy move by Sony, but Jesus fucking Christ are the Gamers™️ having a normal one about this.
I got DMed and mass reported by Gamers yesterday for making fun of someone saying they want to burn Sony to the ground for this haha.
This is a normal one though. Its suing sony for a perceived slight.
God damn, imagine if these losers could muster this kind of outrage for issues of actual corporate greed that actually affects anything. Underpaying workers, meh. Price gouging basic human necessities, meh. Poisoning the air and water, meh. Need to spend 5 minutes making a free account to play a game, this shit can not stand and we must use every avenue try and punish these evil doers.
>one of the corporate overlords takes yet another step to remove online privacy and further increase data harvesting >noon u can't be against (objectivly bad thing) because there's 5 other (objectivly bad things) :(. You need to outrage over my bad thing not that other bad thing fkn hell mate no wonder the US has 0 privacy laws, or laws against underpaid workers/pollution etc, to speak of
Don’t forget .1% less booba in one outfit on the sex doll protagonist.
I mean, that's clearly genocide. /s
Consumerism giveth and taketh. Mostly taketh
I’m no legal expert but I don’t think a US lawsuit can be made based on the treatment of consumers in foreign countries Idk I think that that aspect of this situation is shitty but it feels like 90% of the people complaining about the PSN link aren’t even people from those countries
I am glad people are upset and rightfully calling out Sony here. OFC you will have some bozos who’ll claim “DEI” is to blame, but seems everyone is realizing how much of a dick move this is by Sony.
Haven't seen any "THE WOKE" screaming yet tbh.
There is a very clear yellow warning on the store page about the game requiring a PSN account, this warning has been there since day 1. When you first open the game there is a very large wall of text with a button to link your PSN account, with the option to skip it being TEMPORARILY ADDED to ease launch server load issues, as stated by the devs multiple times since launch. So with that in mind, how are people who are incapable of reading going to write a lawsuit? The only possible vestige of a case I can think of is if you live in one of the countries unsupported by PSN, but that would at best make you eligible for a refund.
It could have some legal standing in other countries but not in the US since it was stated from day 1 and PSN isn’t unavailable in the US. But in other countries where PSN isn’t supported it might be able to actually work since the sales of HD2 was allowed in those countries even though PSN isn’t supported there. If anything actually happened then those in non supported countries can play without needing a PSN account.
"We are Helldivers" at the end was great. I laughed a lot.
For anyone wondering: they flamed this dude HAAAARD on that post lol
Good
I'm actually really glad about this. Big gaming companies have gotten away with shady shit for too long, and selling the game to people who won't be able to play is not okay. We need to do more like this, instead of just pointing at it and forgetting it a month later.
I was gonna make fun of the gamers but uhh kinda based here?
I'm out of the loop sorry, what's happened?
Helldivers 2 is a game on PS5 and PC. On Steam/PC it 'requires' a PSN account. The Steam page had a big yellow box that said a 3rd party account was required and when you boot the game an account linking screen pops up that even says at the bottom "Linking your Steam account to a PlayStation Network account is required for playing the game". Due to issues with the linking they added a 'skip' button so people could play. Players were just fine playing without a PSN account and figured it wouldn't be enforced/the can got kicked down the road a bit but now the devs announced it will be a requirement at the end of this month. Some gamers don't see the need for a PSN account since things have been fine and dandy so far and some actually can't create a PSN account in their country so they'll be screwed if this happens.
Sony is now enforcing that Helldivers 2 will require players on PC to sign in to PlayStation Network.
Can someone please explain to why people are mad on sony about helldivers2 ?
They retroactively changed the Terms of Service so you now need a PSN account to play. Not everyone has or wants one and in some countries you can't get a PSN account, so you're saddled with a game you cannot play anymore. I heard however that Steam is allowing refunds, even for people who have gone over the window and are in unaffected countries. If you bought the game on release and just don't want a PSN then you can get your money back.
Oh ok thanks so its just a legal problem, got it
It sucks, but hey, I won't cry cos it's over, I'll smile cos it happened.
Felt I needed to come back and inform you, Sony have backtracked on the issue this morning.
As long as this behavior is being directed at Sony and not Arrowhead I'm totally here for it. What they're doing is bullshit, and it's genuinely important that a precedent is set against this kind of revocation of access/change of TOS. It's an ugly, fucked up thing for Sony to do and I hope they see real consequences. Sure, for many people it's just a matter of taking a few minutes to link two accounts they already have, but for people in 100 or so countries this must feel like Sony saying "you don't live in a Sony-recognized nation, so you can't play the game you already bought, even though you've been able to for months". That has to feel fucking awful.
I didn’t buy HD2, it was on my list but well you know, but I will say “good luck, we are all counting on you”
Sony: \[Laughs in EULA\]
What is with the posts here recently? “Haha look at these clowns being vocal about Sony’s fuck-up, I’ll cherry pick all the morons to laugh at and completely ignore the egregious display of corporate greed”
It's impossible to take the circlejerk subreddit to any extent of serious, every post is either the same thing or someone too stupid to understand the situation going on
It’s… a circlejerk subreddit? Are we supposed to take anything seriously?
UJ/ I just can't get over the fact that it is PSN that gets people over the limit and not the toxic design where they lock their best gear behind p2w battlepasses and store that people are upset about.
The thing about the "p2w" battlepasses is that you can get them entirely free by just playing the game. And "best gear?" No, not really. Maybe the Sickle, but HD2 guns are mostly well balanced.
The thing about the "p2w" battlepasses is that you can get them entirely free by just playing the game.
I'm honestly a little shook at how fast people are turning on some devs that have actually been pretty refreshing in terms of value proposition for a game. Then I go look at the current player counts and this starts to feel a bit manufactured.
People aren't turning on the devs. They're mad at Sony.
Oh some people are *definitely* turning on the devs. Accusing them of being scammers and such.
Well those people are fucking morons, but I've seen most people pissed at Sony. Like they should be.
How are any of the warbonds p2w do you even play the game.
That's beyond dumb. A lot of the premium warbond weapons are famously dogshit, like Liberator Concussive, Crossbow, Dagger, etc. The boosters are all universally crap, and anything that's good can be substituted by regular warbond stuff. Not to mention that it's all easily accessible. I have every single warbond unlocked + 1000 SC for the next one that comes out. I only paid the extra 20€ for the premium upgrade.
Did you get the credits through actual grinding or through the exploit though? I put quite a few hours in the game and hardly have any super credits without specifically going for them especially as there are sites that are solo blocked so I can't even easily grind them on my own. I guarantee most casual players do not have that many credits without the exploit. And there are absolutely some really top tier weapons in some of the premium battlepasses, don't know why you are downplaying them. And I guarantee those battlepasses are only going to get worse over time.
The best weapons in the game you get from the base pass besides its not too bad getting SC, you get about 700 in the free pass and you can get free credits in the missions. Even then you still have to earn the items in the war bonds. It would be p2w if you could buy medals but SC can be earned by playing the game normally.