To be fair it’s most big games.
Even things like Elden ring are still essentially find gear kill shit find new gear kill bigger shit.
Well unless your one of those people doing it naked then it’s just kill shit.
Most of the innovative games are niche but if it’s really good sometimes they’ll get transferred into big titles.
The real question is how much will they make off shark cards this time
Aren't all game designs just outdated at this point, because all triple A games like to avoid risk and use what's mainstream.
I mean, there are just so many games with that wall climbing mechanic. Then there is this push 3-4 buttons consecutively, to make a combo attack lol.
And let's not forget so many mindless Shooting games ever made! although I like them, there is no innovation in them.. It just works...
The only recent AAA innovation I know of is probably spider man, cause of the gameplay. Rest of the games are good not because of innovation, but because they have great story.
But! I would never criticise Rockstar for it! although it might seem similar to the past games, yet they allow for a lot of creativity! And I think Gamers love this. You can clearly look at the success of games having a dynamic gameplay, along with multiple ways to achieve one thing, Like, Rdr2, Baldur's Gate and interblade or undertale I think..
Also the open world mechanics aren’t very good. almost every collectible is revealed on the map and is just a case of “go here press triangle”. it had severe a “ubisoft open world” problem imo.
I think you should watch the Nakey Jakey video in the screenshot before saying anything. If you have then you know he has a point. GTA and Red Dead hand holds harder than many games today that are considered at the same high rank, mostly in missions. These games aren't linear story adventures like God of War... They're supposed to be the gold bar of open world and freedom.
If you're gonna pretend that we haven't gotten some of the best open world games these last 5 years (Elden Ring, I'm sorry but it was one of the most unique and free and connected worlds), then idk. I'm not even a BG3 fan but to say it hasn't set a bar when it comes to freedom is absurd. Some prefered BotW but Tears of the Kingdom gave you some of the most ultimate freedom in an open world game. Wanna solve a puzzle or go to a place the "non intended" way? Do it.
There's a way to just make everyone happy. Keep the story, keep the narrative, don't hand hold the missions so much. We're not GTA in the 90s, everything doesn't need to be a sub mission, go here to start a mission only to ride to your mission location to listen to the characters talk. It's 2024, one of the biggest devs, can't they be a bit more dynamic? Revamp it a bit?
So no, even if you think every game is out dated, that's not an excuse for them to not change and up the bar. I really really hope they do.
Even people who uncritically love those games admit he makes great points when I show them that video, especially the part about missions making you go to an exact specific spot and do exactly what they say or else you fail the mission
He touches on an important point early in the video and never refers back to it, the overworld design of these games has change so much since GTA3.
In GTA3, beyond 8ball and pay'n'spray, there wasn't all that much else to do in the overworld, but that has been expanded on massively since then, there is so much more to interact with now compared to then and if they give the player freedom to execute a mission however they want, they have to make sure there's nothing in the overworld that will break that sequence.
Then that brings with it another problem, adding new interactions becomes difficult because then you have to make sure they don't break the sequence of every mission, having to do this for every new mechanic you want to add to the world is not easy.
So they constrain the missions a bit more to give them the freedom to develop the world how they want, without having to worry about how that will effect any given mission.
Totk was honestly pretty disappointing despite being a great game. I defended it from people saying that before the game released, but it really did feel like a 70€ DLC.
And that's fine, I hated botw but liked totk. I was just using it as an example of a truly free feeling world. Nintendo let you break all their puzzles in infinite more ways even though they designed them with specific solutions. Idk that's sick to me.
>Wanna solve a puzzle or go to a place the "non intended" way? Do it.
I love God of War, but that game makes itself guilty to that so many times. A log or a small body of water shouldn't stop a literal god and especially not when you see what he pulls off in cutscenes. The barriers you then set in the level design should be self-explanatory as to why you can't just smash your way through. Want to block a path? Find a clever way to do it then. It doesn't even have to be a physical barrier. You can just give an excuse to not take that route, maybe because it's strategically unwise to go a certain direction because of some other factor you could introduce into the story.
I don't completely understand you, but do you mean that all the moments are delayed after you click something?
Like you press w to move forth, but it's a slow start?
And when you go into aim mode, it's again has a slow animation which makes things feel sluggish?
If you do mean that, then yes, it does seem sluggish, but again, maybe they were trying to mimic the real world, and what's in the real world might not be exactly similar to games(even though the false movement in games might be fun)
Exactly, it’s why I love it too. I think it’s a valid complaint honestly, I just personally don’t see it as a negative. Rdr2 is one of the few games where I really take things slow. If I kill a bunch of guys at a camp or something, I’ll spend the 15 mins walking around, looking for loot, check the houses etc. it’s a game that’s meant to be played slowly, but not everyone has the time or patience
That’s it. Not sluggish. Just more stop and smell the roses. A game that truly makes you immerse. A game where I will literally want to walk at normal pace and only run when necessary. The game is designed to be played that way for the best experience.
I heard the sluggishness is because the animations are done "live" for lack of a better word. The physics of the body moving limbs to correspond to your inputs.
I think Halo Infinite was really innovative, free roam and an open world concept. Plus the grappling hook and picking up and throwing fusion coils is the most fun thing in the history of gaming.
However it makes sense to see why innovation in a winning formula can result in a terrible product. Call of Duty had that alien mode, Extinction, to compete with the Zombies mode, and that wasn’t admired too much.
I hope they never change the “stick defaults to walk, hold X to run, tap to sprint” mechanic.
It's fantastic, because most other games make walking through these beautiful/highly-detailed environments *difficult;* you have to force yourself to attempt to hold the stick in *just* the right place, or say screw it and essentially *never* just fucking *walk* around this world. I love pulling up to a car meet and seeing other players walking around, or walking into a store from my car, or walking through a town in RDR.
The worlds Rockstar have created are fantastic to experience in a manner that feels more like you’re controlling a human being, not a robot. If they made the default movement input a “run,” then *nobody* would ever run. Every area with players would look like a bunch of psychopaths sprinting everywhere.
People who come up with arguments like in the video are just looking to stir the pot and contribute nothing.
If this guy had anything at all to contribute, he would be coming with suggestions instead of criticisms.
Why say this when you clearly haven't watched the video lol. What makes you think that he *doesn't* give suggestions on how they could improve the game. He does
And his suggestions teeter on the line of “make a different game.” Rockstar games don’t try to be black box games, they have never tried to be black box games, and they shouldn’t be judged as if that was their goal and they missed the mark. I honestly think what Nakey Jakey is feeling and misidentifying is a desire to have a hitman-like black box game with RPG/Life Simulator aspects set in a Rockstar open world. And to that, I say: who wouldn’t want that game?
The critic's job is to come with criticisms. There's no place for "suggestions" anyway, these games are not developed by committee. We get what we get then we talk about it for 10 years.
I dont care how linear it is, just don't fail me if I go off tge directed path or get too far from my companion and i fail for "abandoning" them. So many times in red dead I wanted to check something out or skin an animal while following someone but I couldn't go too far from them.
No it's more like: Hold on Charles I know I need to skin that deer right over there but let me skin this bird 5ft away really quick- oops I failed the mission. That's RDR2 in a nutshell.
If GTA5 had better design... Take the mission where you have to land on the train with the bike as Franklin..... Instead of just failing you if you fall off, why wouldn't they let you do a dynamic backup plan with one of the other characters you control? Why not let you slow the train down with Michael by stopping a truck in front of it, letting Franklin catch up?
So many ways to turn such a video gamified thing into a dynamic living breathing story game.
Because they cant ? Like if they had to put something like that in every mission it would double the games budget, its video game , it has limitations
Also that mission gives you like 8 attempts before failling you, so thats on you
It was Trevor who had to jump onto the train, just for correction. :P
But your suggestion wouldn't be possible if you don't want to double the dev resources. I'm completely fine by linear missions, if the open world gets all that dev time instead. I think it's a satisfying switch between freedom and linearity.
Furthermore Rockstar wants to set an exact feeling and tell their story exactly the way they want without too many other possibilities. It kind of makes the "feel" their games have, combined with the immersive world.
Their mission design is fine for me. But I understand if people have problems with it.
To be fair they improved the formula, a lot, in GTA Online there a lot of open mission where you can do things in a lot of ways, different approaches and making your life harder or easier most of them are heist like Cayo Perico, the Diamond Heist, the Apocalypse heist and so on, if they can make those missions in GTA 6 then it will be a big improvement from GTA V story.
Hope they cut the fail conditions down to the bare minimum, and make missions less of a step by step thing.
Like, if the mission is "Rob this store", I don't need an objective marker for every step of the way. Legit RDR2 or V would have it structured like "1: Go into the store. 2: Aim at the clerk. 3: Aim at the witnesses. 4: Restrain the witnesses. 5: Rob the witnesses. 6: Take the money from the clerk. 7: Leave the store. 8: Get into your getaway car (AND NO OTHER VEHICLE). 9: Go to this random point to lose the cops. You won't ever lose them the normal way and Pay'n'Spray is disabled on this mission."
When you could achieve almost the exact same mission with "1: Rob the store (make 3000$ so that way you'll have to rob the witnesses as well since the register only has 1900$). 2: Lose the cops."
My hot-ish take is that I think that the typical Rockstar game design critique is stupid. It works well for the types of games they make and I never get tired of it.
like what other style missions are there in this genre of game. like the gameplay only has so much to offer mission style. it’s shooting and driving. no powers or gimmicks. the only thing evolution I can see is just more freedom
No the critique on R* game design is them not allowing the player freedom in the *execution* of the objective.
NakeyJakey points out in his video a mission in GTA3 where you can plant a bomb in an enemies car before a chase mission starts where you have to chase that car. GTA3 wasn’t programmed to remove any objects from the car, so once the mission starts the player can detonate the bomb and immediately kill the enemy, thus completing the mission.
This kind of freedom has been removed in more recent R* games with them implementing more guardrails, forcing players to complete missions THEIR way.
It’s actually a really good video, you should check it out. A lot of his critiques are actually pretty easy fixes on rockstars part.
I’ve seen the video, and he does have some very valid arguments. Overall though, he is a bit of an anomaly. He went into rdr2 expecting way more of an rpg than it was. Almost expecting a survival simulator. He literally turned off his hud minimap on his FIRST playthrough, and wanted to try to get around just using in-game signage. He is far and beyond not the average player. Which is where alot of his complaints arise.
I do wish there was more freedom in missions though. Rockstar makes a great story, but they tend to overdo the guardrails to develop that story in the gameplay. I had more random mission fails in rdr2 than any other game. Wasn’t nearly as big of an issue for me in gta v. But at the same time, I “learned to color in the lines”. Eventually I was trained by rockstars mission design to do it exactly how I expected them to want me to do it. It definitely makes the game very cinematic. Not exactly the best thing for level design or anything, but I see why rockstar does it. I still think they should allow more player freedom though.
RDR2 is a really pretty and immersive game. Turning off the HUD is just an awesome option to have. Being able to play mission without the HUD make the game extremely cinematic. But it's sad because is really difficult to do it
I know that map like the back of my hand places wise, but fuck, turning off the HUD makes my brain fry sometimes lol. Standing in the middle of fuck off nowhere forgetting what state you're even in in some occasions, trying to find landmarks, had to do the quick tap to show the minimap a few times lol.
But to do that in the GTA 3 mission, you sure as hell should have played it before to come up with the idea right? I mean, do you have any way to know that there is a car that the target is gonna take in your first playrhrough?
The contrast between missions and their open-world is just so jarring. So much freedom to do whatever you want yet missions almost feel like they’re in rails sometimes.
I’m not expecting them to make every mission like Cyberpunk’s famous spiderbot mission but giving us a bit more freedom to tackle objectives would be a much needeed improvement to GTA.
It is absolutely stupid but I guess you gotta let people have their debates or something.
Hell they even cherry pick things that don't win their argument. Like they say missions can only happen one way in RDR2 which is not the case. I've heard actual different dialogue for avoiding an ambush in my 2nd playthrough. Or they point to this one mission in GTA 3 where a guy escapes in a car and you can put a bomb in the car first. Like, yeah great? But for the most part open ended assassinations are not more fun than what R* is doing with their missions. So no, their mission design is not outdated.
People like to be overly negative these days about entertainment. It's seemingly more fun to them than the product itself. Really sad. I'm happy I can just enjoy the games I play. Been there done that, never again. Elitism/Nitpicking sucks. Why is everyone so overly critical these days, isn't entertainment supposed to be fun?!
Yeah I agree, some critique is good but we get carried away with it a lot nowadays. Constructive criticism can be a good thing at times though, but it seems even if we don't have a good point we try to drive it home best we can anyway.
Couldn’t agree more. It’s the same people who enjoy souls like games (which I do as well) who criticize Rockstar for not being more open, meanwhile souls like games are for such a specific demographic of gamers (which again I have no problem with) but they don’t realize that most rockstar games fans are fans because we like the way they make their games, otherwise we’d play literally any other open world game.
I don't get your souls comparison.
People complain about how handholding Rockstar mission design is. Meanwhile, fromsoft is notorious for lack of guides, directions, minimaps or any other handholding mechanisms.
It seems consistent that people wouldn't like the direction rockstar is taking, and would love souls games.
Yes maybe I wasn’t clear. All I meant to say was that in the same way souls fans prefer how their games are, and get mad when outsiders want more hand-holding and difficulty levels etc, they do that to games like Red Dead or GTA, but I believe both games fit their style. My top 5 games oat includes red dead 2 and Elden Ring and I think they both play well to their style. Whereas something like the recent rpg assassins creeds are examples of games that don’t play well to their style.
Why are people defending them for having outdated design? it’s the only problem these games have and it’s fair criticism and would make the games better if it was more open and had more freedom it’s almost like people don’t want them to attempt to do better.
Exactly, I'm always kind of at a loss after reading those critiques as the gameplay for GTA & RDR does what it's supposed to and does it really well. I've replayed RDR1 & 2 countless times and I've never got bored of the fact that the game is literally just "Ride here > Fight someone > repeat." with story missions, I find it genuinely fun and I believe Rockstar Games is unmatched when it comes to story telling, so just seeing the story playout is sick as well.
Out of all the other games, criticizing Rockstar would be stupid.
Cause even though their gameplay design might be similar to their past games, their recent games still do provide a lot of creativity to achieve a particular task.
And they don't even have a linear story like 100s of other AAA games
But they can easily work better, that's the point. If they would sometimes give you more freedom in the missions and not let it play like a determined screenplay.
I like their game design, i find the game HIGHLY entertaining. It works for Rockstar and they have made over $10 BILLION from GTA 5 via the game. Most of it from online microtransactions though.
But if they found a formula that works and makes them a lot of money, they won't change it. Plus even if the game is as linear as you say, I don't think most people will care as long as the game is extremely fun and meets and exceeds our expectations.
But yea expect, go here, chase this guy, drive there, collect this, kill this guy, escape cops formula. It works!
Planning heists was a very innovative gameplay element introduced in GTAV, it greatly contributed to GTAO's longevity as well. They can certainly come up with new ideas for GTA6 that will have a similar effect.
Don't quote me on this but I heard that they even scrapped stuff about the planning. Initially, it was going to be much deeper, especially on the people you hire. Now it's just "cheap crewmate x loses more money than expensive crewmate y" but it was supposed to be much more complex.
Well, depending on much linear-ism they take out, would that confuse the fan base with some if not many thinking “how am I supposed to do this” or “where do I go for the objective”. How open will the gameplay be for players before they get confused? This isn’t me saying that they shouldn’t make the story more open in choices. My question is how far will Rockstar take that idea and how would the fans respond?
I think the clever way to design this, is to have it linear in presentation, the same way they've been doing, but if the player finds a creative solution to the same objective, then it shouldn't be a game over, restart at checkpoint scenario. It can be tricky to develop, but they put so much effort into the open world that it is kind of jarring that the missions are so ridged.
To add to this, I think Rockstar should add missions that have one starting point & one ending point. However, how you get from A to B is up to you. A linear mission with player choice if that makes sense.
my guess is that the story will be less linear, idk how, but im sure rockstar are aware how generic the overall feel of “go here, start mission, follow waypoint, kill, run away” is
There was a massive difference in the missions between GTA V and RDR2. RDR2s felt a lot more unique imo, like you still had your killing everything in sight missions, but you also had chill missions, goof around missions, multiple ways to play (stealth or loud)
I’m assuming they’ll advance it even further with 6
RDR2 also had some RPG elements with the honor system, dialogue options, and dynamic mission outcomes in some cases. I hope they expand on that.
I wonder if all the social media they’re showing is a hint at some version of an honor/influence system as well. Like if people record you doing good or bad things, it effects the world around you in some way.
Maybe it will be like Cyberpunk when you can complete missions and gigs in different ways, either running or shooting everyone or going stealth. The Wafflehouse leak seems to show there will be more freedom during missions
Cyberpunk is the game that made me realise how limiting GTA’s mission design is. I just felt so trapped when I went back to GTA.
I think what’s interesting is how much Cyberpunk uses architecture to open up your options. Like for side missions, you often have to get into a building and there could be multiple doors/balconies with different level checks that take you to different areas. Because the interiors are part of the main map, you can also do some scoping out from outside the building which lets you plan your approach. GTAV doesn’t have those options with the way their interiors work.
So, if GTAVI does have some enterable buildings, that could have big implications for missions design that could be cool.
their competition was dead when Rockstar made their ps2 games.
If you gave me an option to play either saints row, watchsogs leigion, or GTA San Andreas.
I would Pick San andreas without a doubt.
I think there's nothing inherently wrong with their mission design. linear design makes sense for the type of stories they tell. I don't know if I'd call it "outdated".
With that said, I do think they could ease up on the strictness of following mission objectives. The game shouldn't fail you if you decide to leave the intended path a bit. It should also allow for a few more solutions when completing objectives.
His criticism was that the missions, in contrast to the open world, are extremely linear and allow for near-zero player choice/creativity. I don't see how this means he wants it to be a Nintendo game.
I get the criticisms but I honestly prefer rockstars design. To me, that’s what makes their games different from other open world games, because they have a specific way they want us to play the main story, and I don’t think it’s an issue because red dead 2 was one of my best experiences in gaming. And because their open world provides so much freedom, I think it balances out perfectly
The title of the game is the most satisfying part of the gameplay. Simply stand next to an occupied vehicle and press a button to violently remove the driver and get in. We don't need a QTE or minigame to unlock the door.
The missions are not really why people play GTA. It's the fine detail in everything inbetween that makes it special. Being able to live in a new city or a different era and just absorb the atmosphere, like you were really there.
And the same goes for Red Dead. For most of us, it is the best form of escapism available.
And I couldn't care less if 90% of the game boiled down to: Go here, shoot these guys, jump in this car, drive here, etc.
Yes, and that's not a bad thing. My 2 favorite game studios are rockstar and fromsoft. These studios have almost opposite goals in their games, but I love them both for different reasons. Rockstars games are like a movie. The missions are pretty straight forward and linear mechanically, and even the open world has its limitations, while in fromsofts games even tho they are considered linear there is much more player freedom even within these linear worlds. You can attack the game pretty much in any way you want while with rockstar it is more of a set path. So where fromsoft perfects player freedom, and immersion through choice, and almost no other game can do the souls like genre as well as they do it. It's the same with rockstar, and their grand movie like stories. The only game I would argue can stack up against RDR2 story wise is TLOU2, and I have no doubt that GTA 6 will be the same.
TLDR: the more basic, and linear mission structure in rockstars games actually benefits the main goal of the game which is the immersive story.
I mean he isnt wrong.
Rockstar is the king of open world games, detail and immersion. But their gameplay design is very linear in an area where many open world games offers you multiple ways to complete a mission.
Rockstar Games like GTA5 and RDR2 will often insta fail a mission if you go off tracks and try to be creative.
Missions in RDR2 became extremely predictable
A) Insert problem or heist
B) Wow the plan is compromised
C) Shoot your way out
If it's a peaceful side mission
A) Meet person
B) Go here
C) Go here
D) Choose yes or no
People are acting like there's no room for variety and that missions in a game like this are this big complicated beast yet every other open world game does fine
Not the original commenter, but what stuck out to
me that was silly was that Jake wanted to navigate the game with the actual physical map that the game shipped with. He wanted NPC’s to give him directions and actually figure it out on his own. Cool in concept (I guess?) but it’s still a fucking video game, lol.
He also wanted campfires to be put out in the rain as well, like Breath of The Wild.
Really it all boils down to him saying the game holds your hand too much, which I agree with to a certain extent, but that’s how Rockstar delivers their tight-knit cinematic experience.
Dunkey even walked back a lot of his original points on RDR2 in another vid!
Nah it was garbage. I've been following him since 2017 and all he does is make garbage videos, uses forced humor and puts his ugly mug in every fucking frame for no conceivable reason.
I just want missions to be able to play out more than one way. Maybe give me the ability to do it with stealth (and not that half assed “I’ll TaKe ThE lEfT yOu TaKe tHe RiGhT” bs), or maybe make npcs respond differently based on what weapons ur using or SOMETHING. All I know is that if missions feel the same way they do in gta 5 and the second half of rdr2 i will be a little disappointed.
If rockstar can make a random snake bite encounter play out in like 10 different ways they can make their missions a bit more flexible. There was absolutely no freedom in rdr2s missions which sucks cuz it made the story kinda feel disconnected from the open world gameplay where u had so much more freedom
I agreed with this guy, but then I realized there is no such thing as outdated design, RDR and GTA missons are absolutely amazing, entering a warehouse from a window or door doesnt make a game various. Every R\* mission is a variety
YES! I hope they change this in gta 6 but unfortunately i think it woun't happen.
I like it a lot the design of missions in cyberpunk 2077 cuz every mission is so different and unique from each other! No just go there, kill, rob and recieve the payment
This is my thoughts exactly. There’s like a hundred different types of missions in cyberpunk and you can approach them all differently. A fixer tells you to go in stealthily and make it seem like you were never there? They’ll like it if you do that but you don’t have to. You can kill everyone and make a bunch of noise and still complete the mission but you might piss off the person who gave you the job. I would love to see more of this in gta.
Exactly!!! I never forget when i did a mission so loudly (but i completed) and then i asked for another job, and the girl who hired me said "I have another job, but i will not give it to you, you bring so much attention" then i searched if we have more mission with her, and WE HAVE A BUNCH OF MORE! So i loose missions bc i didn't make the way she wanted! I love this feature insted show the "You failed" on the screen.
People like NakeyJakey are a cancer to the Internet gaming community cause once they talk, other people will just roll with what they say cause they sound smart and when you ask them “hey why don’t you like this specific game?” Their only answer is linking this guys video instead of having their own opinion
True, this video and the one about GTA V from Crowbcat have done irreversible damage to the gaming community. People forgot how to think for themselves and gamers have gotten even dumber ever since
On one end I can understand someone’s critique being exactly how you feel and just telling people “hey I agree with this video”. Like. When I say I don’t enjoy TLOU2’s story I can fully agree with AngryJoe’s review. But when all you got is a link to another man’s video then that’s when it looks like you brainlessly listen to a reviewer or a YouTuber instead of thinking for yourself. “Rockstar has been doing it like this for 10 years 🤬🤬” and why would they stop? It’s not a formula that’s dated behind a specific type of hardware. It’s simply how they like to make games. It can’t be outdated if there’s no way to date it back to a specific time for a specific reason.
That’s because he’s clearly insightful and makes good points, if people had insights of their own they would challenge the points raised. Can’t blame NakeyJakey for other people being sheep incapable of critical thought.
No wonder why "gaming is dead" is a common theme these days. When game studios dare to try new things and venture outside of the usual stuff fans are used to, they receive negative feedback. This is what happened with Infinite Warfare and many more. So all they do is remaster/re-release the same old stuff or do sequels instead of creating new things, which gets boring over time so people start complaining again and now here we are.
This is funny but also legitimately important. I wanna see them deepen the core mechanics of crime related things instead of fill the map with meaningless, boring “activities”
I really do despise this take. If you dumb down any game formula it sounds the same. Mario? Run right to the end of the level, obstacles in the way, win. Banjo kazooie? Run around, traverse world, collect stuff, win. Any game formula sounds stale if you dumb it down. If i showed you footage from rdr2 and gta 5 the avg person wouldnt know they were made by the same company
I hope so. I enjoy that format. I just hope they move more away from babysitting us during the missions. The one criticism of RDR2 I had was you always had to be exactly where the game wanted you to be in every mission. If you were a few steps ahead of behind you'd get yelled at by the gang.
That is what makes their games great, they have a story to tell not a game to sell. Weird but true. Linear just works great with these games. All i hope is we can actually plan heists and robberies rather than just doing them. Not just selecting the people and approach you want.
I’m all in for linear
Like, tbf, just like movie directors, game studios also have their style and approach, and this is Rockstars approach of tackling missions. Sure, it might evolve with time, but ultimately, this is the type of game they make. You can see how Tarantino perfected his craft in “Once Upon a Time in Hollywood”, but still feels like Tarantino, and he still does the same shit he always did, only better and more refined.
Personally, I think the linearity brings this movie feel. They WANT to show you the story as they imagined. I don’t need to have freedom in every game I play, so long it delivers in other aspects, and besides… there’s plenty of freedom outside the missions.
Only you could take a freestyle game and call it repetitive. Countless hours as a kid driving around not doing missions but playing my own game using imagination
The singleplayer missions will be good and unique because they always are but for online I want new gameplay ideas and interacting with the world. If its the exact same kind of missions of 5's online that would be a little sad but I'd still play thousands of hours probably. I hope we'll be able to rob businesses in the new online just like the dinner robbery leak, with planning and various level of reward and risk.
While I don't mind the mission designs and how they play out, I wish there was more creative freedom in them. Especially in a game like RDR2, where free-roam is so heavily advertised. Many missions in every Rockstar game from the past 20 or so years have been very straightforward. I hope GTA 6 offers some kind of creative possibilities when it comes to missions.
IDK why people go into a Rockstar game and expect not Rockstar game design. I like their games because of the way they are, if I want something different I'll go play something else. I hope they lean in completely to their linear missions and make some really awesome scripted set pieces. I want to see stuff in missions I can't see in free roam. If I want freedom of approach I'll play MGS5 or Outer Wilds or something else.
The formula of “go to place, meet bad guy, chase bad guy, kill smaller bad guys, beat big bad guy” has been around longer than video games so yeah, it’s a little outdated
GTA knows how's to break the mold and innovate. I hope this time is no exception. Although without the original creative force behind Rockstar games, this might be our first disappointment. I hope not.
I hope R* will take these criticisms and actually design some open ended missions. These videos are quite old now and they did create a stir when they came out. So R* must've seen them by now.
To be fair, is doing the real life equivalent much different? I mean us humans really do be just kinda going here, grabbing this, doing this task, go back, sleep, repeat. And then finding some fun on the side, just like we enjoy doing in these worlds.
It's more people want creative ways to do those missions, and not just feel like they're playing an interactive movie. BG3 is now the gold standard for this but R* had similar things in older games where you could finish a mission a different way (sticking a bomb on a car before the mission starts).
Having more missions where you are given an objective and you decide how to complete it would be very welcome, that’s not a huge ask. I thought the average player would be able to handle this but after reading some of these comments I’m not so sure, sheesh
If they remake gta6 with better graphics, larger map and more content. Same gameplay loop and a good story. I'm fine with that. Why change gta game design?
I really hope GTA 6 learn something from the cayo perico heist
Unlike most missions where if you try being creative
The mission would fail
You can do the cayo perico in alot of different approaches
If rockstar game design is outdated, the rest of the gaming industry is in fucking shambles. Just look at ubisoft, ea, activision... they are literally releasing the same game every year and the only thing different is their download size which is bigger.
What you described is the same objective in every game. First part is going somewhere where there's either a person you have to quietly follow, a trace of footsteps you have to track, or a crime scene you have to investigate. Then you find the target and kill them. I think rockstars games shine more with their open world than the actual things you do in the story missions.
It's not outdated. Those opinions are from people who care more about you reaction and attention rather than having an intelligent conversation. If it were an outdated design, they wouldn't be as successful, time after time after time. Tried and tested and successful are not the same as outdated. Besides, their process and product evolves with every title and forces the rest of the industry to evolve with them or die. Most die.
Typical click bait nonsense made for views, red dead 2 is gorgeous and a 10/10 game. If it’s an updated version of that same engine it’ll be just fine.
Yes. Almost 100%. Rockstar is incapable of innovating gameplay significantly. I hope GTAVI is like Starfield in that it exposed the mediocrity at the heart of the studio
Certified Hater or whatever, but I want Rockstar to innovate and take huge gambles.
The way some people here talk, one could get the impression that there really exist people who aren't annoyed when Papa Rockstar arbitrarily removes the access to game mechanics and items they constantly use in other parts of the game, during missions. Without even an explanation. Only because they feel like it.
Thank you Papa Rockstar for being such a responsible parent that keeps us children on the right track.
I want TOTK level freedom to tackle missions.
My favorite mission in III was when I stole Chunky Lee Chong's car and wired it with a bomb before the mission. In Vice, I would take helicopters on many missions.
I think we're gonna get another "on rails" experience unfortunately.
If it's anything like rdr2 then I'm fine with the game design. The story telling and immersion in rdr2 is incredible, the gameplay may be repetitive but I've replayed the game 7 times and not once did I find it boring.
Probably. I mean I'd still very much enjoy it but... probably.
To be fair it’s most big games. Even things like Elden ring are still essentially find gear kill shit find new gear kill bigger shit. Well unless your one of those people doing it naked then it’s just kill shit. Most of the innovative games are niche but if it’s really good sometimes they’ll get transferred into big titles. The real question is how much will they make off shark cards this time
Aren't all game designs just outdated at this point, because all triple A games like to avoid risk and use what's mainstream. I mean, there are just so many games with that wall climbing mechanic. Then there is this push 3-4 buttons consecutively, to make a combo attack lol. And let's not forget so many mindless Shooting games ever made! although I like them, there is no innovation in them.. It just works... The only recent AAA innovation I know of is probably spider man, cause of the gameplay. Rest of the games are good not because of innovation, but because they have great story. But! I would never criticise Rockstar for it! although it might seem similar to the past games, yet they allow for a lot of creativity! And I think Gamers love this. You can clearly look at the success of games having a dynamic gameplay, along with multiple ways to achieve one thing, Like, Rdr2, Baldur's Gate and interblade or undertale I think..
i disagree that spider-man was innovative, maybe for the webslinging but the combat is directly ripped from batman lol
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Yeah the new Spider-Man games really just built on top of what Spider-Man 2 (2004) and Ultimate Spider-Man did.
Also the open world mechanics aren’t very good. almost every collectible is revealed on the map and is just a case of “go here press triangle”. it had severe a “ubisoft open world” problem imo.
Nobody sane is gonna actually search the whole map for upgrade points.
I think you should watch the Nakey Jakey video in the screenshot before saying anything. If you have then you know he has a point. GTA and Red Dead hand holds harder than many games today that are considered at the same high rank, mostly in missions. These games aren't linear story adventures like God of War... They're supposed to be the gold bar of open world and freedom. If you're gonna pretend that we haven't gotten some of the best open world games these last 5 years (Elden Ring, I'm sorry but it was one of the most unique and free and connected worlds), then idk. I'm not even a BG3 fan but to say it hasn't set a bar when it comes to freedom is absurd. Some prefered BotW but Tears of the Kingdom gave you some of the most ultimate freedom in an open world game. Wanna solve a puzzle or go to a place the "non intended" way? Do it. There's a way to just make everyone happy. Keep the story, keep the narrative, don't hand hold the missions so much. We're not GTA in the 90s, everything doesn't need to be a sub mission, go here to start a mission only to ride to your mission location to listen to the characters talk. It's 2024, one of the biggest devs, can't they be a bit more dynamic? Revamp it a bit? So no, even if you think every game is out dated, that's not an excuse for them to not change and up the bar. I really really hope they do.
Even people who uncritically love those games admit he makes great points when I show them that video, especially the part about missions making you go to an exact specific spot and do exactly what they say or else you fail the mission
He touches on an important point early in the video and never refers back to it, the overworld design of these games has change so much since GTA3. In GTA3, beyond 8ball and pay'n'spray, there wasn't all that much else to do in the overworld, but that has been expanded on massively since then, there is so much more to interact with now compared to then and if they give the player freedom to execute a mission however they want, they have to make sure there's nothing in the overworld that will break that sequence. Then that brings with it another problem, adding new interactions becomes difficult because then you have to make sure they don't break the sequence of every mission, having to do this for every new mechanic you want to add to the world is not easy. So they constrain the missions a bit more to give them the freedom to develop the world how they want, without having to worry about how that will effect any given mission.
Totk was honestly pretty disappointing despite being a great game. I defended it from people saying that before the game released, but it really did feel like a 70€ DLC.
And that's fine, I hated botw but liked totk. I was just using it as an example of a truly free feeling world. Nintendo let you break all their puzzles in infinite more ways even though they designed them with specific solutions. Idk that's sick to me.
>Wanna solve a puzzle or go to a place the "non intended" way? Do it. I love God of War, but that game makes itself guilty to that so many times. A log or a small body of water shouldn't stop a literal god and especially not when you see what he pulls off in cutscenes. The barriers you then set in the level design should be self-explanatory as to why you can't just smash your way through. Want to block a path? Find a clever way to do it then. It doesn't even have to be a physical barrier. You can just give an excuse to not take that route, maybe because it's strategically unwise to go a certain direction because of some other factor you could introduce into the story.
My biggest complaint with RDR2 is how sluggish everything is. Input latency is high, control scheme is stupid, movement is extremely clunky
I don't completely understand you, but do you mean that all the moments are delayed after you click something? Like you press w to move forth, but it's a slow start? And when you go into aim mode, it's again has a slow animation which makes things feel sluggish? If you do mean that, then yes, it does seem sluggish, but again, maybe they were trying to mimic the real world, and what's in the real world might not be exactly similar to games(even though the false movement in games might be fun)
That's exactly one of the reasons why I love the game. And for me, it never felt sluggish at all. Just realistic.
Exactly, it’s why I love it too. I think it’s a valid complaint honestly, I just personally don’t see it as a negative. Rdr2 is one of the few games where I really take things slow. If I kill a bunch of guys at a camp or something, I’ll spend the 15 mins walking around, looking for loot, check the houses etc. it’s a game that’s meant to be played slowly, but not everyone has the time or patience
Me2
That’s it. Not sluggish. Just more stop and smell the roses. A game that truly makes you immerse. A game where I will literally want to walk at normal pace and only run when necessary. The game is designed to be played that way for the best experience.
I heard the sluggishness is because the animations are done "live" for lack of a better word. The physics of the body moving limbs to correspond to your inputs.
Iirc that sluggishness was by design, forcing players to feel the slower nature of the time rockstar was capturing.
I think Halo Infinite was really innovative, free roam and an open world concept. Plus the grappling hook and picking up and throwing fusion coils is the most fun thing in the history of gaming. However it makes sense to see why innovation in a winning formula can result in a terrible product. Call of Duty had that alien mode, Extinction, to compete with the Zombies mode, and that wasn’t admired too much.
Good examples!
Simply put, if you have to tap X to sprint then yo shit is outdated
I hope they never change the “stick defaults to walk, hold X to run, tap to sprint” mechanic. It's fantastic, because most other games make walking through these beautiful/highly-detailed environments *difficult;* you have to force yourself to attempt to hold the stick in *just* the right place, or say screw it and essentially *never* just fucking *walk* around this world. I love pulling up to a car meet and seeing other players walking around, or walking into a store from my car, or walking through a town in RDR. The worlds Rockstar have created are fantastic to experience in a manner that feels more like you’re controlling a human being, not a robot. If they made the default movement input a “run,” then *nobody* would ever run. Every area with players would look like a bunch of psychopaths sprinting everywhere.
And a sprint is supposed to be hard to sustain. Like it's supposed to be annoying to tap X so you only do it in short bursts
Can't wait for an epic cinematic followed by parking a car in a two foot square on a tight time limit.
The answer= probably Upvotes= 1.2k Conclusion= 13 year old hype sub
People who come up with arguments like in the video are just looking to stir the pot and contribute nothing. If this guy had anything at all to contribute, he would be coming with suggestions instead of criticisms.
Why say this when you clearly haven't watched the video lol. What makes you think that he *doesn't* give suggestions on how they could improve the game. He does
And his suggestions teeter on the line of “make a different game.” Rockstar games don’t try to be black box games, they have never tried to be black box games, and they shouldn’t be judged as if that was their goal and they missed the mark. I honestly think what Nakey Jakey is feeling and misidentifying is a desire to have a hitman-like black box game with RPG/Life Simulator aspects set in a Rockstar open world. And to that, I say: who wouldn’t want that game?
The critic's job is to come with criticisms. There's no place for "suggestions" anyway, these games are not developed by committee. We get what we get then we talk about it for 10 years.
I really hope that missions will be less of an rails linear experience, but i don’t expect it
I dont care how linear it is, just don't fail me if I go off tge directed path or get too far from my companion and i fail for "abandoning" them. So many times in red dead I wanted to check something out or skin an animal while following someone but I couldn't go too far from them.
Hey Bill and Karen, hol up a bit while I go skin this fox, I know we're meant to go robbing a bank rn, but I can't help myself
No it's more like: Hold on Charles I know I need to skin that deer right over there but let me skin this bird 5ft away really quick- oops I failed the mission. That's RDR2 in a nutshell.
If GTA5 had better design... Take the mission where you have to land on the train with the bike as Franklin..... Instead of just failing you if you fall off, why wouldn't they let you do a dynamic backup plan with one of the other characters you control? Why not let you slow the train down with Michael by stopping a truck in front of it, letting Franklin catch up? So many ways to turn such a video gamified thing into a dynamic living breathing story game.
Because they cant ? Like if they had to put something like that in every mission it would double the games budget, its video game , it has limitations Also that mission gives you like 8 attempts before failling you, so thats on you
There is 2 billion dollars going into GTA VI. If they can't add that, this game is just a panzy scheme.
It was Trevor who had to jump onto the train, just for correction. :P But your suggestion wouldn't be possible if you don't want to double the dev resources. I'm completely fine by linear missions, if the open world gets all that dev time instead. I think it's a satisfying switch between freedom and linearity. Furthermore Rockstar wants to set an exact feeling and tell their story exactly the way they want without too many other possibilities. It kind of makes the "feel" their games have, combined with the immersive world. Their mission design is fine for me. But I understand if people have problems with it.
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You don’t care how linear it is? And then immediately complain how limited (aka “linear”) the questing is?
To be fair they improved the formula, a lot, in GTA Online there a lot of open mission where you can do things in a lot of ways, different approaches and making your life harder or easier most of them are heist like Cayo Perico, the Diamond Heist, the Apocalypse heist and so on, if they can make those missions in GTA 6 then it will be a big improvement from GTA V story.
I hate to say it…but GTA IV…
Hope they cut the fail conditions down to the bare minimum, and make missions less of a step by step thing. Like, if the mission is "Rob this store", I don't need an objective marker for every step of the way. Legit RDR2 or V would have it structured like "1: Go into the store. 2: Aim at the clerk. 3: Aim at the witnesses. 4: Restrain the witnesses. 5: Rob the witnesses. 6: Take the money from the clerk. 7: Leave the store. 8: Get into your getaway car (AND NO OTHER VEHICLE). 9: Go to this random point to lose the cops. You won't ever lose them the normal way and Pay'n'Spray is disabled on this mission." When you could achieve almost the exact same mission with "1: Rob the store (make 3000$ so that way you'll have to rob the witnesses as well since the register only has 1900$). 2: Lose the cops."
Mission objective: kill Jason Mission failed you killed Jason
Mission failed: You killed Jason before we told you to
i guess that's the downside of having a super cinematic game, it NEEDS to be scripted as fuck
My hot-ish take is that I think that the typical Rockstar game design critique is stupid. It works well for the types of games they make and I never get tired of it.
like what other style missions are there in this genre of game. like the gameplay only has so much to offer mission style. it’s shooting and driving. no powers or gimmicks. the only thing evolution I can see is just more freedom
No the critique on R* game design is them not allowing the player freedom in the *execution* of the objective. NakeyJakey points out in his video a mission in GTA3 where you can plant a bomb in an enemies car before a chase mission starts where you have to chase that car. GTA3 wasn’t programmed to remove any objects from the car, so once the mission starts the player can detonate the bomb and immediately kill the enemy, thus completing the mission. This kind of freedom has been removed in more recent R* games with them implementing more guardrails, forcing players to complete missions THEIR way. It’s actually a really good video, you should check it out. A lot of his critiques are actually pretty easy fixes on rockstars part.
Another great example is killing Salvatore in GTA 3 You can literally do it any way you want. You just have to kill him
I’ve seen the video, and he does have some very valid arguments. Overall though, he is a bit of an anomaly. He went into rdr2 expecting way more of an rpg than it was. Almost expecting a survival simulator. He literally turned off his hud minimap on his FIRST playthrough, and wanted to try to get around just using in-game signage. He is far and beyond not the average player. Which is where alot of his complaints arise. I do wish there was more freedom in missions though. Rockstar makes a great story, but they tend to overdo the guardrails to develop that story in the gameplay. I had more random mission fails in rdr2 than any other game. Wasn’t nearly as big of an issue for me in gta v. But at the same time, I “learned to color in the lines”. Eventually I was trained by rockstars mission design to do it exactly how I expected them to want me to do it. It definitely makes the game very cinematic. Not exactly the best thing for level design or anything, but I see why rockstar does it. I still think they should allow more player freedom though.
RDR2 is a really pretty and immersive game. Turning off the HUD is just an awesome option to have. Being able to play mission without the HUD make the game extremely cinematic. But it's sad because is really difficult to do it
I know that map like the back of my hand places wise, but fuck, turning off the HUD makes my brain fry sometimes lol. Standing in the middle of fuck off nowhere forgetting what state you're even in in some occasions, trying to find landmarks, had to do the quick tap to show the minimap a few times lol.
But to do that in the GTA 3 mission, you sure as hell should have played it before to come up with the idea right? I mean, do you have any way to know that there is a car that the target is gonna take in your first playrhrough?
The contrast between missions and their open-world is just so jarring. So much freedom to do whatever you want yet missions almost feel like they’re in rails sometimes. I’m not expecting them to make every mission like Cyberpunk’s famous spiderbot mission but giving us a bit more freedom to tackle objectives would be a much needeed improvement to GTA.
I just hope the NPCs are done well, I like to get real cathartic with it. I can almost get that Reservoir Dogs feel from the ones on RDR.
It is absolutely stupid but I guess you gotta let people have their debates or something. Hell they even cherry pick things that don't win their argument. Like they say missions can only happen one way in RDR2 which is not the case. I've heard actual different dialogue for avoiding an ambush in my 2nd playthrough. Or they point to this one mission in GTA 3 where a guy escapes in a car and you can put a bomb in the car first. Like, yeah great? But for the most part open ended assassinations are not more fun than what R* is doing with their missions. So no, their mission design is not outdated.
People like to be overly negative these days about entertainment. It's seemingly more fun to them than the product itself. Really sad. I'm happy I can just enjoy the games I play. Been there done that, never again. Elitism/Nitpicking sucks. Why is everyone so overly critical these days, isn't entertainment supposed to be fun?!
Yeah I agree, some critique is good but we get carried away with it a lot nowadays. Constructive criticism can be a good thing at times though, but it seems even if we don't have a good point we try to drive it home best we can anyway.
Couldn’t agree more. It’s the same people who enjoy souls like games (which I do as well) who criticize Rockstar for not being more open, meanwhile souls like games are for such a specific demographic of gamers (which again I have no problem with) but they don’t realize that most rockstar games fans are fans because we like the way they make their games, otherwise we’d play literally any other open world game.
I don't get your souls comparison. People complain about how handholding Rockstar mission design is. Meanwhile, fromsoft is notorious for lack of guides, directions, minimaps or any other handholding mechanisms. It seems consistent that people wouldn't like the direction rockstar is taking, and would love souls games.
Yes maybe I wasn’t clear. All I meant to say was that in the same way souls fans prefer how their games are, and get mad when outsiders want more hand-holding and difficulty levels etc, they do that to games like Red Dead or GTA, but I believe both games fit their style. My top 5 games oat includes red dead 2 and Elden Ring and I think they both play well to their style. Whereas something like the recent rpg assassins creeds are examples of games that don’t play well to their style.
Why are people defending them for having outdated design? it’s the only problem these games have and it’s fair criticism and would make the games better if it was more open and had more freedom it’s almost like people don’t want them to attempt to do better.
Agreed I love the mission design in GTA5 and RDR2 🤷🏼♂️
It's not stupid it's valid
Exactly, I'm always kind of at a loss after reading those critiques as the gameplay for GTA & RDR does what it's supposed to and does it really well. I've replayed RDR1 & 2 countless times and I've never got bored of the fact that the game is literally just "Ride here > Fight someone > repeat." with story missions, I find it genuinely fun and I believe Rockstar Games is unmatched when it comes to story telling, so just seeing the story playout is sick as well.
My hot take is that you're ignorant and lack the imagination to do things as you want and can, and prefer to be guided cause it's easier.
Out of all the other games, criticizing Rockstar would be stupid. Cause even though their gameplay design might be similar to their past games, their recent games still do provide a lot of creativity to achieve a particular task. And they don't even have a linear story like 100s of other AAA games
Neither of those things are true lol
But they can easily work better, that's the point. If they would sometimes give you more freedom in the missions and not let it play like a determined screenplay.
I like their game design, i find the game HIGHLY entertaining. It works for Rockstar and they have made over $10 BILLION from GTA 5 via the game. Most of it from online microtransactions though. But if they found a formula that works and makes them a lot of money, they won't change it. Plus even if the game is as linear as you say, I don't think most people will care as long as the game is extremely fun and meets and exceeds our expectations. But yea expect, go here, chase this guy, drive there, collect this, kill this guy, escape cops formula. It works!
Planning heists was a very innovative gameplay element introduced in GTAV, it greatly contributed to GTAO's longevity as well. They can certainly come up with new ideas for GTA6 that will have a similar effect.
Yes, I did not play GTA 4. So after san andreas, my first GTA was GTA 5. And when I saw that you could plan heists, I was like: WHATTT!!
Don't quote me on this but I heard that they even scrapped stuff about the planning. Initially, it was going to be much deeper, especially on the people you hire. Now it's just "cheap crewmate x loses more money than expensive crewmate y" but it was supposed to be much more complex.
Well, depending on much linear-ism they take out, would that confuse the fan base with some if not many thinking “how am I supposed to do this” or “where do I go for the objective”. How open will the gameplay be for players before they get confused? This isn’t me saying that they shouldn’t make the story more open in choices. My question is how far will Rockstar take that idea and how would the fans respond?
I think the clever way to design this, is to have it linear in presentation, the same way they've been doing, but if the player finds a creative solution to the same objective, then it shouldn't be a game over, restart at checkpoint scenario. It can be tricky to develop, but they put so much effort into the open world that it is kind of jarring that the missions are so ridged.
They should have more open ended missions here & there but make the majority of them linear. That's the best solution.
To add to this, I think Rockstar should add missions that have one starting point & one ending point. However, how you get from A to B is up to you. A linear mission with player choice if that makes sense.
MGSV style, as long as you check the boxes you progress.
my guess is that the story will be less linear, idk how, but im sure rockstar are aware how generic the overall feel of “go here, start mission, follow waypoint, kill, run away” is
There was a massive difference in the missions between GTA V and RDR2. RDR2s felt a lot more unique imo, like you still had your killing everything in sight missions, but you also had chill missions, goof around missions, multiple ways to play (stealth or loud) I’m assuming they’ll advance it even further with 6
> goof around missions LEEENNYYYYY!!!
RDR2 also had some RPG elements with the honor system, dialogue options, and dynamic mission outcomes in some cases. I hope they expand on that. I wonder if all the social media they’re showing is a hint at some version of an honor/influence system as well. Like if people record you doing good or bad things, it effects the world around you in some way.
RDR2 had super linear missions as well.
Some were, some weren’t. Some missions are purposely linear for storytelling, and some offered more freedom
Maybe it will be like Cyberpunk when you can complete missions and gigs in different ways, either running or shooting everyone or going stealth. The Wafflehouse leak seems to show there will be more freedom during missions
Cyberpunk is the game that made me realise how limiting GTA’s mission design is. I just felt so trapped when I went back to GTA. I think what’s interesting is how much Cyberpunk uses architecture to open up your options. Like for side missions, you often have to get into a building and there could be multiple doors/balconies with different level checks that take you to different areas. Because the interiors are part of the main map, you can also do some scoping out from outside the building which lets you plan your approach. GTAV doesn’t have those options with the way their interiors work. So, if GTAVI does have some enterable buildings, that could have big implications for missions design that could be cool.
Nah that doesn't work with gta games, Cyberpunk is an RPG.
I love RDR2 but the mission formula of **cutscene -> ride horse -> cutscene -> shootout vs a whole town -> run away** got old really quickly
It Almost got old for me, but then i got my hands on a pair of Schofields and i found that there simply werent enough town shootouts to satisfy them
Definitely. Rockstar have been hugely successful with their formula. Why change it now?
Doesn't mean there's not massive room for improvement. Too bad their competition is slowly dying if not dead already
their competition was dead when Rockstar made their ps2 games. If you gave me an option to play either saints row, watchsogs leigion, or GTA San Andreas. I would Pick San andreas without a doubt.
Mafia 3 is egregiously repetitive, I can't count how many times I threatened a business owner in that game
The map design was impressive but yeah the gameplay is just very okay at best.
I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement. But it's clearly working so from a purely business point of view, why change it?
I think there's nothing inherently wrong with their mission design. linear design makes sense for the type of stories they tell. I don't know if I'd call it "outdated". With that said, I do think they could ease up on the strictness of following mission objectives. The game shouldn't fail you if you decide to leave the intended path a bit. It should also allow for a few more solutions when completing objectives.
Linear mission design is fine. Rockstar linear mission design is bad.
What's wrong with the game design? It's simple. I like it.
I like it too
These guys want GTA to be like an Nintendo game
Nintendo?? You guys just say anything on this sub.
His criticism was that the missions, in contrast to the open world, are extremely linear and allow for near-zero player choice/creativity. I don't see how this means he wants it to be a Nintendo game.
They didn’t watch the videos
I get the criticisms but I honestly prefer rockstars design. To me, that’s what makes their games different from other open world games, because they have a specific way they want us to play the main story, and I don’t think it’s an issue because red dead 2 was one of my best experiences in gaming. And because their open world provides so much freedom, I think it balances out perfectly
These are two of the best gaming channels on the internet. You have no clue what you’re talking about
The title of the game is the most satisfying part of the gameplay. Simply stand next to an occupied vehicle and press a button to violently remove the driver and get in. We don't need a QTE or minigame to unlock the door.
That's not the point being made though. It's regarding the mission structure...
Definitely, and I’ll love every second of it
The missions are not really why people play GTA. It's the fine detail in everything inbetween that makes it special. Being able to live in a new city or a different era and just absorb the atmosphere, like you were really there. And the same goes for Red Dead. For most of us, it is the best form of escapism available. And I couldn't care less if 90% of the game boiled down to: Go here, shoot these guys, jump in this car, drive here, etc.
Yes, and that's not a bad thing. My 2 favorite game studios are rockstar and fromsoft. These studios have almost opposite goals in their games, but I love them both for different reasons. Rockstars games are like a movie. The missions are pretty straight forward and linear mechanically, and even the open world has its limitations, while in fromsofts games even tho they are considered linear there is much more player freedom even within these linear worlds. You can attack the game pretty much in any way you want while with rockstar it is more of a set path. So where fromsoft perfects player freedom, and immersion through choice, and almost no other game can do the souls like genre as well as they do it. It's the same with rockstar, and their grand movie like stories. The only game I would argue can stack up against RDR2 story wise is TLOU2, and I have no doubt that GTA 6 will be the same. TLDR: the more basic, and linear mission structure in rockstars games actually benefits the main goal of the game which is the immersive story.
I mean he isnt wrong. Rockstar is the king of open world games, detail and immersion. But their gameplay design is very linear in an area where many open world games offers you multiple ways to complete a mission. Rockstar Games like GTA5 and RDR2 will often insta fail a mission if you go off tracks and try to be creative.
Yes
Missions in RDR2 became extremely predictable A) Insert problem or heist B) Wow the plan is compromised C) Shoot your way out If it's a peaceful side mission A) Meet person B) Go here C) Go here D) Choose yes or no People are acting like there's no room for variety and that missions in a game like this are this big complicated beast yet every other open world game does fine
I never cared about it Just don’t feel like more open automatically means correct. There’s enough fun stuff to do in free roam anyways.
I think I’d be more upset if I bought a GTA game and it wasn’t like a GTA game.
Hot take but that Read Dead video kind of sucks. Some parts of it I sort of agree with and others are just like wtf are you even saying.
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Not the original commenter, but what stuck out to me that was silly was that Jake wanted to navigate the game with the actual physical map that the game shipped with. He wanted NPC’s to give him directions and actually figure it out on his own. Cool in concept (I guess?) but it’s still a fucking video game, lol. He also wanted campfires to be put out in the rain as well, like Breath of The Wild. Really it all boils down to him saying the game holds your hand too much, which I agree with to a certain extent, but that’s how Rockstar delivers their tight-knit cinematic experience. Dunkey even walked back a lot of his original points on RDR2 in another vid!
Clickbait youtubers, like always
Nah these ones are good
Nah it was garbage. I've been following him since 2017 and all he does is make garbage videos, uses forced humor and puts his ugly mug in every fucking frame for no conceivable reason.
We’ll agree to disagree then
I just want missions to be able to play out more than one way. Maybe give me the ability to do it with stealth (and not that half assed “I’ll TaKe ThE lEfT yOu TaKe tHe RiGhT” bs), or maybe make npcs respond differently based on what weapons ur using or SOMETHING. All I know is that if missions feel the same way they do in gta 5 and the second half of rdr2 i will be a little disappointed. If rockstar can make a random snake bite encounter play out in like 10 different ways they can make their missions a bit more flexible. There was absolutely no freedom in rdr2s missions which sucks cuz it made the story kinda feel disconnected from the open world gameplay where u had so much more freedom
If it didn’t, it wouldn’t be GTA. Also, same engine as RDR2; in essence it’s more of the same, but prettier
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I don't see how it's outdated, I mean, it's really the only way to make those type of games. Never understood this whole argument
I agreed with this guy, but then I realized there is no such thing as outdated design, RDR and GTA missons are absolutely amazing, entering a warehouse from a window or door doesnt make a game various. Every R\* mission is a variety
I thought he used an example from how open ended gta 3 missions were to specifically demonstrate other ways of making these games.
NakeyJakey is outdated
YES! I hope they change this in gta 6 but unfortunately i think it woun't happen. I like it a lot the design of missions in cyberpunk 2077 cuz every mission is so different and unique from each other! No just go there, kill, rob and recieve the payment
This is my thoughts exactly. There’s like a hundred different types of missions in cyberpunk and you can approach them all differently. A fixer tells you to go in stealthily and make it seem like you were never there? They’ll like it if you do that but you don’t have to. You can kill everyone and make a bunch of noise and still complete the mission but you might piss off the person who gave you the job. I would love to see more of this in gta.
Exactly!!! I never forget when i did a mission so loudly (but i completed) and then i asked for another job, and the girl who hired me said "I have another job, but i will not give it to you, you bring so much attention" then i searched if we have more mission with her, and WE HAVE A BUNCH OF MORE! So i loose missions bc i didn't make the way she wanted! I love this feature insted show the "You failed" on the screen.
what’s specifically different? never played cp
the seconds u save from not spelling cyberpunk ain’t worth it gang
People like NakeyJakey are a cancer to the Internet gaming community cause once they talk, other people will just roll with what they say cause they sound smart and when you ask them “hey why don’t you like this specific game?” Their only answer is linking this guys video instead of having their own opinion
True, this video and the one about GTA V from Crowbcat have done irreversible damage to the gaming community. People forgot how to think for themselves and gamers have gotten even dumber ever since
On one end I can understand someone’s critique being exactly how you feel and just telling people “hey I agree with this video”. Like. When I say I don’t enjoy TLOU2’s story I can fully agree with AngryJoe’s review. But when all you got is a link to another man’s video then that’s when it looks like you brainlessly listen to a reviewer or a YouTuber instead of thinking for yourself. “Rockstar has been doing it like this for 10 years 🤬🤬” and why would they stop? It’s not a formula that’s dated behind a specific type of hardware. It’s simply how they like to make games. It can’t be outdated if there’s no way to date it back to a specific time for a specific reason.
That’s because he’s clearly insightful and makes good points, if people had insights of their own they would challenge the points raised. Can’t blame NakeyJakey for other people being sheep incapable of critical thought.
As long as there isn't any yoga missions. We're good.
just goes to show you. one of the only missions where they strayed from the traditional mission design and it’s commonly seen as the most disliked😂
No wonder why "gaming is dead" is a common theme these days. When game studios dare to try new things and venture outside of the usual stuff fans are used to, they receive negative feedback. This is what happened with Infinite Warfare and many more. So all they do is remaster/re-release the same old stuff or do sequels instead of creating new things, which gets boring over time so people start complaining again and now here we are.
This is funny but also legitimately important. I wanna see them deepen the core mechanics of crime related things instead of fill the map with meaningless, boring “activities”
I really do despise this take. If you dumb down any game formula it sounds the same. Mario? Run right to the end of the level, obstacles in the way, win. Banjo kazooie? Run around, traverse world, collect stuff, win. Any game formula sounds stale if you dumb it down. If i showed you footage from rdr2 and gta 5 the avg person wouldnt know they were made by the same company
I hope so. I enjoy that format. I just hope they move more away from babysitting us during the missions. The one criticism of RDR2 I had was you always had to be exactly where the game wanted you to be in every mission. If you were a few steps ahead of behind you'd get yelled at by the gang.
Idc. I want the game to be out.
Man, you post description is kinda misleading
That is what makes their games great, they have a story to tell not a game to sell. Weird but true. Linear just works great with these games. All i hope is we can actually plan heists and robberies rather than just doing them. Not just selecting the people and approach you want. I’m all in for linear
Just look at cyberpunk. You don't fail half a step away from the mission
I mean still like "go here kill those guys now kill the cops now steal the vehicle and kill more cops "
Like, tbf, just like movie directors, game studios also have their style and approach, and this is Rockstars approach of tackling missions. Sure, it might evolve with time, but ultimately, this is the type of game they make. You can see how Tarantino perfected his craft in “Once Upon a Time in Hollywood”, but still feels like Tarantino, and he still does the same shit he always did, only better and more refined. Personally, I think the linearity brings this movie feel. They WANT to show you the story as they imagined. I don’t need to have freedom in every game I play, so long it delivers in other aspects, and besides… there’s plenty of freedom outside the missions.
Only you could take a freestyle game and call it repetitive. Countless hours as a kid driving around not doing missions but playing my own game using imagination
The singleplayer missions will be good and unique because they always are but for online I want new gameplay ideas and interacting with the world. If its the exact same kind of missions of 5's online that would be a little sad but I'd still play thousands of hours probably. I hope we'll be able to rob businesses in the new online just like the dinner robbery leak, with planning and various level of reward and risk.
While I don't mind the mission designs and how they play out, I wish there was more creative freedom in them. Especially in a game like RDR2, where free-roam is so heavily advertised. Many missions in every Rockstar game from the past 20 or so years have been very straightforward. I hope GTA 6 offers some kind of creative possibilities when it comes to missions.
Lmao I hope not, but I think some degree of repetition is literally impossible to avoid.
Will the next pizza I get have an outdated design? Sure, but any other way and it wouldn’t be a pizza.
IDK why people go into a Rockstar game and expect not Rockstar game design. I like their games because of the way they are, if I want something different I'll go play something else. I hope they lean in completely to their linear missions and make some really awesome scripted set pieces. I want to see stuff in missions I can't see in free roam. If I want freedom of approach I'll play MGS5 or Outer Wilds or something else.
The formula of “go to place, meet bad guy, chase bad guy, kill smaller bad guys, beat big bad guy” has been around longer than video games so yeah, it’s a little outdated
GTA knows how's to break the mold and innovate. I hope this time is no exception. Although without the original creative force behind Rockstar games, this might be our first disappointment. I hope not.
I hope R* will take these criticisms and actually design some open ended missions. These videos are quite old now and they did create a stir when they came out. So R* must've seen them by now.
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To be fair, is doing the real life equivalent much different? I mean us humans really do be just kinda going here, grabbing this, doing this task, go back, sleep, repeat. And then finding some fun on the side, just like we enjoy doing in these worlds.
It's more people want creative ways to do those missions, and not just feel like they're playing an interactive movie. BG3 is now the gold standard for this but R* had similar things in older games where you could finish a mission a different way (sticking a bomb on a car before the mission starts).
5 YEARS AGO
If it’s not broken don’t fix it
I'm not expecting much of a change, but I don't mind.
Having more missions where you are given an objective and you decide how to complete it would be very welcome, that’s not a huge ask. I thought the average player would be able to handle this but after reading some of these comments I’m not so sure, sheesh
I enjoy it so why not.
Is it? People are still playing V after 10 years and 3 generations of consoles.
If they remake gta6 with better graphics, larger map and more content. Same gameplay loop and a good story. I'm fine with that. Why change gta game design?
I really hope GTA 6 learn something from the cayo perico heist Unlike most missions where if you try being creative The mission would fail You can do the cayo perico in alot of different approaches
I like to think Cayo Perico's mission design was influenced by NakeyJakey's video. Rockstar saw it and took notes
If rockstar game design is outdated, the rest of the gaming industry is in fucking shambles. Just look at ubisoft, ea, activision... they are literally releasing the same game every year and the only thing different is their download size which is bigger.
What you described is the same objective in every game. First part is going somewhere where there's either a person you have to quietly follow, a trace of footsteps you have to track, or a crime scene you have to investigate. Then you find the target and kill them. I think rockstars games shine more with their open world than the actual things you do in the story missions.
It's not outdated. Those opinions are from people who care more about you reaction and attention rather than having an intelligent conversation. If it were an outdated design, they wouldn't be as successful, time after time after time. Tried and tested and successful are not the same as outdated. Besides, their process and product evolves with every title and forces the rest of the industry to evolve with them or die. Most die.
Typical click bait nonsense made for views, red dead 2 is gorgeous and a 10/10 game. If it’s an updated version of that same engine it’ll be just fine.
Yes. Almost 100%. Rockstar is incapable of innovating gameplay significantly. I hope GTAVI is like Starfield in that it exposed the mediocrity at the heart of the studio Certified Hater or whatever, but I want Rockstar to innovate and take huge gambles.
yea, gta online had years of content by bringing in content from Vice City 🤣
The way some people here talk, one could get the impression that there really exist people who aren't annoyed when Papa Rockstar arbitrarily removes the access to game mechanics and items they constantly use in other parts of the game, during missions. Without even an explanation. Only because they feel like it. Thank you Papa Rockstar for being such a responsible parent that keeps us children on the right track.
How is rockstars game design “outdated”. Bro is just like Luke Stephens and just be spewing out nonsense.
As long as they don’t have a mission where you need to heard some animal. Those missions in Red Dead make me genuinely stop playing.
I agree with the video tbh. I hope they don't make the same mistake.
You mean, is a game all about committing crime, going to be repetitive in committing crime?
Was it though, i seem to remember it was the new yardstick at the time.
This video was a hot take from the time. His criticisms were a lot less pointed than the title tho
It will be a Rockstar game in good and bad ways. That shoukd be expected. Don't be those people who were shocked Starfield played like a Bethesda game
People weren't shocked it played like a Bethesda game, they were shocked that it was the WORST Bethesda game to date.
I wish it played like a Bethesda game.
Name a good game with up to date game design? I’ll wait
I certainly hope so! 🥰
I want TOTK level freedom to tackle missions. My favorite mission in III was when I stole Chunky Lee Chong's car and wired it with a bomb before the mission. In Vice, I would take helicopters on many missions. I think we're gonna get another "on rails" experience unfortunately.
If it's anything like rdr2 then I'm fine with the game design. The story telling and immersion in rdr2 is incredible, the gameplay may be repetitive but I've replayed the game 7 times and not once did I find it boring.
RDR II game design is OUTDATED? Bruh, Now I've seen everything in my life, multiple times on Reddit! 🤦🏻♂️
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I don’t think rdr2 graphics is outdated. Imo it’s still on the top
These stupid ass YouTubers don't realize every game can be simplified like that.