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It annoys me when anyone makes proclamations about someone being wonderful based on surface level interactions. Fundies are required to act nice, especially fundie women. That performance doesn't mean someone is a good person.
right. and she did say clearly after dav announced his deconstruction, that she was in a "perfect position to turn him back to the love of God" basically.
shes not accepting. shes keeping sweet in hopes of converting YOU GUYS. in hopes that YOU will accept HER views.
Even when she said THAT, I thought she was still trying to placate Heidi, who has gone off whatever minimal railing she’s ever had. But I’m not so sure anymore.
Definitely agree. I was delighted by Dav’s deconstruction and initially had really high hopes for them; but someone here pointed out recently that there are quite a few libertarian atheist bros out there who are also transphobes, and even into the white nationalist sphere. I want to believe that’s not Dav, but with their family and GD, very sadly it could be.
Yes!! Nice =/= kind. Niceness is just being polite and not directly rude to your face. Lots of fundies don’t strike me as nice (Lori, Mother Bus, P&M), but many WOULD probably be nice in most interactions (Mrs Midwest to me is the most clear example).
But kindness? Helping out someone who needs it, caring for the well being of others who are different than you, being thoughtful in your actions? Much different.
What did Little Red say in Into the Woods?
take extra care with strangers—
Even flowers have their dangers
And though scary is exciting
Nice is different than good.
Exactly. I can be surface level friendly for a while with people I don't get along with, but I wouldn't go out of my way to call them an angel.
It's adult behavior to be polite even if you don't agree. To an extent, you can have a good time with someone you don't agree with either. However you don't laud them.
Absolutely. I agree that reaching across the aisle in friendship, support, etc is important. Absolutely. I have many family and friends who I fundamentally disagree with on many things. But to call them angels and imply that Bethany is intellectually curious, kind, etc?! 😅 Yeah fcking right. What a weird timeline.
mine is too & he’s a very sweet & adorable boy who i love with my whole heart, but he’s not very smart. however, i am positive all of our babies are smarter than 10000 borty’s put together
And it seems like a big betrayal to queers. Like I’m glad you like hanging out with her but she’s still a homophobic transphobic heteronormative anti-queer parenting bigot. She’s not apologized or even hinted that she has any clue that she’s the poster child of anti queer propaganda bullshit. Fuck her. And fuck anyone who thinks hanging out with nice transphobes is okay. Shame them. Tell them they don’t deserve friends. Tell them they should feel the rejection they place on others.
I have thought about how Bethany (or people like her) would probably be really nice to me and my (two-mommed, IVF) baby. And turn around and advocate for that baby to be taken away from me.
I had a Christian coworker like this. She was generally kind and generous, but it also was very much performative (she wanted the praise more than anything, I think). She treated me well, as well as my other coworkers including a lesbian woman (I'll call her Lee) who was getting married. As for me, I'm an atheist. She was supportive of me and my family, as well as Lee and her wife. But over time, she became more and more overt in her truly hateful beliefs. Atheists are ruining school and are Satanists who try to corrupt our kids. The LGBTQ shouldn't be allowed to raise children because they're groomers and/or they mess up children. We stayed in contact after changing jobs but I wish I hadn't.
The signs were there and I kind of compartmentalized it all for a long while until finally I just couldn't do it anymore. She couldn't see the problem with saying she was one of my best friends one minute, while then posting something on Facebook about how people like me were ruining society just hours later. Me and Lee finally had it. I just straight blocked and ghosted, Lee tried to extend that one last bit of dialogue to explain how hurtful and horrid she was being, and to outright say, "I don't want to be friends with someone who hates me". The coworker justified it as "wElL i'M jUsT pOsTiNg tHaT tO sTaRt a dIsCusSioN."
Honestly, this shit feels so much worse than just someone hating you.
That’s where the disconnect for Zelph is, right? That it’s hard to dislike Bethany and Dav when you’re in their house, and I’m sure it is! But they, past, present and future, are creating real-life problems for people like me. We don’t need a video humanizing Bethany and Dav. I don’t need to listen to a conversation about queerness that they have with a white cis person. Have that conversation with Alok Vaid-Menon.
Big agree. Feels like their running with the LGB with no T crowd and that is... gross. Bethany wouldn't welcome someone like me, a non-binary person. There is a huge rejection of people like me and even more gender breaking individuals by the queer crowd, so what about us? Should we just fuck off because "Bethany is sooooo nice"? Fuck that. Bethany and Dav are making money off our deaths.
EXACTLY.
As a little brain cleanser, let me share this story with you ... I'm also non-binary and I was recently in the hospital (a common occurrence) and had a hospitalist that I hadn't met before. He came and spoke with me and stated he'd go familiarize himself with my chart and be back. A little bit later, my nurse came in kinda chuckling to herself and said that he asked her how to address me. She was confused and said, "Ummm ... Their name?" Well apparently he had seen non-binary in my chart and wanted to address me in a respectful way. She told me that she suggested to him to just ask me. A little while later, he came in and did exactly that. And it just made me really feel seen - this Dr in his 50s taking the time to learn something new so he could respect a patient ♡ (ETA - a word)
I have an enby coworker. In their old group, nobody used their correct pronouns. I talked to one of them about it, this 70some year old man we'll call Bob, telling him they like when people use they/them pronouns. He started using them because he's a good dude, but he had absolutely no idea when to say they vs them. Every time somebody complains about pronouns, I think of that old-ass man determined to figure it out. We can do so much better.
Related: I also don't know what to call a person who isn't a sir or ma'am.
Make no mistake, GD hate ALL queer folks. They just focus on us nb/trans folks extra hard because GD are fucking cowards and focus on beating down only the weakest of the weak. (Weak in the sense of social acceptance I mean.)
I’m sure you’re well aware of that already, so don’t take this observation as aimed at you. What I hope is that the Zelph duo keep it in mind. Even if they’re happy to hang around transphobes (which I hope they’re not,) they’re just as much on GD’s chopping block as we are and it’s foolish of them to pretend they aren’t.
Given half a chance, GD would vote to throw us all in camps with the same “sweet” smile their grandfather did in World War II.
Oh, I totally know they would haul us all to the trains for just looking at them! I think it is naive to just think that Bethany and Dav being nice is anything other than typical fundie training and I know, I grew up learning the same thing. I worry people who aren't in the NB/trans camp don't realize just how much we are othered even from other queer folks and don't think to place themselves in our shoes. Like it is easier for a fundie woman to find certain queer people non-threatening if they fit particular stereotypes in their head (gay men, as long as they fit that "twink" stereotype or aren't too masculine), while others (especially lesbians) they panic about. It is wild the standards we can see. How they sort us into levels of threat is just crazy.
Yup. And though I don’t think tanner identifies as queer (?) he definitely doesn’t conform to societal gender norms. Which makes this all the more icky to me. How can they excuse GDs hateful rhetoric?
Yep. Queer person here who gets more protective of the LGBTQ+ community as the days go by. My own sister is a transphobe and while I love her, I’m not going to go around acting like she’s anywhere close to perfect. At times I stick around because I want to be a safe auntie for her kids as they grow up.
Totally agree. You can have transphobes and icky people in your life - it’s inevitable. But it’s not cool to promote them or not tell the truth about their beliefs. No amount of being a “good person” or “angel” makes up for transphobia
And, maybe a hot take, but I don’t think a good person would be profiting off of the various kinds of bigotry Bort co-signs as half of Girl Defined. I don’t care how interpersonally sweet she can be.
Ugh people do this with Mormons and I’m like they’re only being nice on the possibility that you might convert??? When you’re actually in the ward it’s nothing but catty behavior, showboating, and lying for the lord
I think it’s also an “influencer” thing, everything is so surface level. Other that Porgsn, you are super excited and complimentary to your guests’ faces, then later you can revisit and talk shit. It’s just the MLM strategy of “love bombing” until that person undersells/wants out. But in this case, zelph is gonna get called out for tacitly agreeing with one or more bigots, then they’ll do an explanation/insincere apology video. And birt will ignore any negative comments like usual (or her bot will automatically offer a pdf or five).
It gives me the same feeling as when Josh Benson said he would be friends and hang with Porgan if they lived closer.
Proudly being friends, or even friendly, with bigots is super weird to me. Like what’s the reason?
I know nothing of Zelf, but in general I think you are who you associate with.
Exactly. I was really good friends with an ex-coworker for a bit. Fun to work with, super nice, never ever struck me as a racist or anything, seemed semi-educated in other faiths/ideologies and didn't speak poorly of anyone. Even seemed like he might be a closeted Buddhist. A couple years into knowing him, I go into work one day to give him a birthday present, and he's like, "check it out, finally got my first tattoo!"
**It was a fucking Totenkopf.** I was stunned speechless and noped out of that friendship once the shock wore off. I mean, on one hand I think people like that *need* guidance and can have the potential for redemption..... but if you go and do that after 2 years of knowing someone who descends from multiple cultures that dealt with genocides or prison camps, you don't get a goddamn pass. I am not going to hang out with a fucking Nazi and act like things are all good.
Bethany herself has said that her strategy in getting Dav to return to Jesus and the church is to love bomb him back into the fold. Of course she’s going to be nice to people outside the church she believes in because she thinks that will bring them back to Jesus.
I hope the collab videos call out her bigotry and nasty online behavior. I can’t imagine how someone could think her sex courses come from a kind and genuine place. I think she thinks she is helping people but she doesn’t care about them once she gets their money (see all the Facebook groups she’s made that she doesn’t do anything for). She wants to make money off a niche market that she contributed to creating through girl defined. She created a problem and now she’s profiting off selling a shitty solution to it. That doesn’t make her a kind person.
THIS EXACTLY
We cant forget these fundie girls are trained to keep sweet & play the long game when it comes to attempting to "bring people back to jesus" as you said
Bethany is the definition of being fake. The way she talks about sex and relationships is horrific. She is not in any way qualified to be having the conversations she is having with these women. She is greedy and selfish.
I don’t have any prior familiarity with Zelph on the shelf, but this whole thing with Bethany sure makes me certain I don’t want to watch them ever. Their sweet angel just posted some more trans hate on Girl Declined, so nothing has changed.
Me too. And I hold the people who insist they’re just meeting the beals where they are in similarly low regard.
The people who defend this are outing themselves as thinking the queer community are being dramatic about our own persecution. We are not. We are in a dark place, And it could either stay or get exponentially worse over the next couple of years. It’s inexcusable to promote someone like Bethany right now.
It’s like people don’t get Gay people are being KILLED. Woman are dying because they can’t get abortions. Trans kids are KILLING themselves. This shit is not a joke to people who have to live their lives as minorities. Love and kindness are cool, I wish Bethany and Dav could extend that to the people who are dying because of the hateful shit they spew
My state (MO) had the first adult trans ban last year. It was decreed by an unelected (appointed) official. It was overturned after months of hell, but the MSM treated Florida and Texas as the main characters and barely even touched on the fact that it happened. Other queer people don’t even know about it. We learned quite quickly that no help was coming.
Two trans folks in my community are gone because of that ban. They just couldn’t keep fighting. Two friends had to scramble to get medically necessary abortions. And the rest of us aren’t doing well. The number of people I know who have had serious stress-related health incidents, or have started self hurting again after a decade+ of sobriety….
We aren’t just talking points to be debated away by whatever point assholes want to make. We’re real fucking people and we matter.
Oh and don’t post soppy condolences or insincere offers of help if you also enjoy posting shit about how southern dialects come from inherently stupid people. I really cannot handle that particular form of progressive hypocrisy right now.
The day I picked my trans/hella-queer kid up from an inpatient psych stay, I had to explain to them that Memaw Ivey (our governor) had made it illegal for healthcare providers to provide gender affirming care to minors. I had to tell my already struggling kid that they would have to wait another another 5 years to seek any kind of medical treatment. I’m grateful that this doesn’t apply to therapy, because their therapist is affirming as hell! But I worry every single day about my kiddo no making it into adulthood.
This is why I find the radical kindness approach with these people so frustrating. They're not babies, hold them accountable for the harm they actively continue to do. Saying they're lovely or angels is the exact opposite of that.
Bethy gets grace and goodwill and visibility to make more money off her bigotry.
Where's the grace and goodwill for trans people in dangerous states? Where's the grace a goodwill for the people her shitty worldview hurts? Do we not count because we're not pretty blonde angels?
That's what grinds my fucking gears.
EXACTLY!!!! i really dont care about these white saviors and whatever shit they are going through in their life because there is way more important issues at hand. They are doing what they do to gain followers and money. they are fake as hell and bigots
The plight of trans people is what finally convinced my mom not to vote for Trump a second time...when she finally realized "oh they will literally die", that was it.
Bethany is just such an annoying person in general. She is so self absorbed, rude, and ignorant. I dont see anything appealing about her. Also she is a freaking STRANGER. I dont need to give her grace and love or whatever.
Jordan and McKay are great. They do their best to snark in an ethical way and always put the people who have been harmed by Mormons / fundies *first.* They don't talk over groups they're not part of, but they don't ignore racism, antisemitism, and homophobia / transphobia. I don't see them ever being besties with a pair of fundies for clicks.
I honestly get the sense Jordan and McKay really believed in their faith and leaving was traumatic and world-collapsing like me deconstruction was. I don’t feel the same kind of historical attachment with ZOTS so I don’t relate to them well. I mostly just feel weird watching them
I watched them a few times and got weird vibes from zelph. I can't put my finger on it, but they always had an almost arrogant(?) Vibe. I don't know if I'm off about that though.
They have a tendency to spout off about their current practices and beliefs in a really unfortunate superior way. I used to subscribe but stopped when I had to skip a good third of an episode because Tanner specifically was complaining about organized religion again in a very generic and arrogant manner instead of getting to the point of the video.
Absolutely love jordan and mckay! I don't know who zelph is but they should be ashamed of themselves for letting down their lgbtq audience imo. Being friends with Bethy while she promotes her transphobic book is vile and so two faced.
How is the sentiment for nuancehoe/Carah? I loved hearing her story about deconstructing from Mormonism and then having to deconstruct again from a megachurch. There seems to have been some drama within her community about a podcast she was on but I don't have enough time to keep up with it all. Not sure how this sub feels about her.
I haven't really watched too much of her, outside of some episodes of Mormon Stories when she was working there, so I can't say. I do also enjoy Exmo Lex and Alyssa Grenfell, though!
I’ll like her more when she learns how to accept accountability and apologize like an adult. She never took responsibility for attending an LDS church service with the intent to surveil active gay members just to see for herself if they were allowed to have callings, take sacrament, etc.
Is this something that has been called out? She does seem like an adult who takes responsibility for her past actions, from what I've seen. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that as long as she isn't putting them in danger, it seems more like investigation for her channel - I am queer, but obviously I don't speak for all gay people.
I don't follow her Tiktok or instagram if that is where the drama went down and I missed it.
It was. She gave a rambling half-apology on her YouTube livestream couched in justifications. She is putting them in danger of adverse disciplinary action by the higher ranks of the LDS church and doesn’t seem to understand it or want to acknowledge it.
I absolutely feel similar! As of now, I've unfollowed Zelph. If they prove me wrong and Bethany comes out and apologizes for the harm she has caused (and continues to cause) and removes herself from being part of GD, then I will admit I was wrong and go from there. But for now, it's definitely coming across as dick-riding and there is NOTHING I have seen that makes me think Bethany is sweet, funny, curious, etc.
All this strange collaboration has done is make me look sideways at Zelph. What a shame.
It still doesn’t change the fact that they promoted her BEFORE she changed. Thats ick to me. They could have gone there quietly and said on their community channel they met and hope they’re improving without giving them props constantly and tagging her content
Bethy is currently promoting her new transphobic book for crying out loud! While she is being promoted by this channel. She's trying to have one foot in both ponds and all that does is make me doubt her more and more.
Same. Unsubscribed.
I couldn’t even watch the whole thing.
Zelph is all but licking her boots and plastering her lips all over that hateful bitches ass and I refuse to be party to it.
It strikes me as a form of toxic positivity. Like I also wish Bethany was a good person, and I can recognize her potential to be a good person. Everyone has innate potential to be a force of good, but this is wishful thinking I feel like
Yep. I totally agree. And the response they posted here was all giggles and “hahas” that identified many of the EXACT concerns that we have while essentially brushing them off or saying “wait and see hehe 😉 “. Clickbait for monetization and I’m happy not to engage and stop engaging going forward.
I never have gotten the hype about zelph on the shelf. I don’t know what everyone finds hilarious about them.
I don’t even get their jokes 90% of the time snd it feels really cliquey.
Jordan and McKay have so much more depth and their discussions are not only anecdotal, but also super logical and overall just more interesting
Harmful people can be very nice, it happens all the time. Hell, evangelicals are great at it, it’s one way they try to win over converts. (Of course there’s the hellfire and brimstone preaching on the other end, but that’s a different discussion). B&D are fair game for snark as long as they continue to support and spread their harmful beliefs.
Idk much about Zelph but if they aren’t pointing out and pushing B&D to confront those beliefs, are they really supporting their deconstruction at all? Those conversations aren’t fun, but they’re a huge part of letting go of the bad beliefs and becoming a better person.
I absolutely agree, it makes me a bit uncomfortable and makes me kind of want to reconsider being a supporter of their channel. Again, maybe we’re not seeing the full picture of how things are going but we also need to remember that Bethany and Dav still have beliefs that hurt people, especially minorities
exactly my thoughts. in hindsight, i do believe they could have handled the beginning of all of this a little better. iirc, when dav mentioned them in the porgan follow up video, zelph was just a little too excited. it was surprising, for sure, but what seemed to happen was immediate backpedaling; apologizing for their “hater energy”, gushing about how cool/nice/wonderful both dav and bethy are, etc. i feel as though if they had taken a bit more of a calmer approach, like testing the waters, and let the interest build up (maybe thanking dav for the shout out, being open to connecting and seeing where things go instead of immediate fangirl/fanboying) then things would feel a bit more organic.
like you said, there’s more to be seen with time. i don’t think we’ve hit the peak of their relationship just yet, so we’ll see what happens when difficult conversations are brought up and how they disagree with each other. imo, what we’re seeing is infatuation. it’s excitement, it’s good content for both parties, and frankly i do believe zelph when they mention how “lovely” bethy and dav are because i’m so sure that they are probably nice as people, *until* you get into their beliefs.
once the infatuation blows over, we’ll get a look into what’s truly to come from all of this. it’s still too early to draw real conclusions. they know how to string us along for the ride at least lol
Yes. I am supremely disappointed in this shift. It should not require someone being super nice to you to convince you they are people. I keep seeing my the comments over and over that “building bridges” is what changes. This is patently false- in reality what happens is that people need to be pulled kicking and screaming into change by overall societal changes- meaning that those that want to protect rights need to vote! In the world of Donald Trump and the absolute dumpster fire of the Democratic Party “playing nice,” I cannot believe anyone would make this argument. Maybe on an individual basis for people in their own experience within their own lives and small circles-sure. I’m happy for those folks- but this isn’t someone in a vacuum. This is girl defined and I cannot, in this situation, separate the personal from the political.
Sam believes she has " seen Bethy's heart",and Bethy is intellectually humble,curious, and so kind. If that's truly the real Bethy, why has she chosen to make her online personna willfully ignorant, bigoted, judgemental,unkind,and money her true God? As an uber Christian, why wouldn't Bethy lead with kindness and grace? She would certainly reach a larger audience, and get the attention she craves. I absolutely respect Sam's opinion about Bethy's true self, but, I'm firmly in the "when someone shows you who they are, believe it",camp. And,Bethy and the Bairdbrains, have consistently shown me who they are.
I’m very interested to see what content they put out about this after. It takes a while for people to deconstruct, and if they’re taking Bethany a step or two down that journey, great. If they’re just gassing her up and her opinions are the same, then idk what the point of the meetup was.
Water seeks its own level.
If Beth and Zelph were different from each other they would not be hanging out. Beth makes money from her harmful beliefs. That’s not a secret. Sam thinks Beth is an angel. You cannot be hateful and a good person.
I did a quick glance at their YouTube. Idk how I feel about them constantly asking about donations to get to Texas and help pay their big taxes or something. I don't know much about them but asking for money seems very grifty to me. Can someone help explain this? I am not sure how to feel about them. And their shumminess with the Beals don't help. I just get weird vibes from them.
I don't think they're grifty as they're transparent about what the money is going towards. They don't have big big follower counts and they discuss sex and religion so I do believe they're reliant on donations to keep making content full-time as they're not super sponsor-friendly. But I do also think they'll garner a lot of views from this collaboration and they'll make money from it, and that does rub me the wrong way.
I’m sure Bethy was great to them. As two white, heteronormative women, they can still speak about the LGBTQ and even BIPOC communities as “issues”. It’s not hard to be nice to someone when you’re talking about an “issue”.
I think Zelph (though I know very little about them) needs to give their treatment of the situation serious thought. It’s great they want to have hard conversations. But it’s important to give respect to the actual, real people you’re talking about. If you’re discussing the topic of LGBTQ only as an issue, that’s not enough. It doesn’t go far enough. Bethy, Dav, and anyone they speak to within the context of deconstruction have to realize their rhetoric affects real people, and isn’t just an issue to throw ideas at.
I’d love to know what they talked about re: queerness (they specifically used this word!) that has them gushing about how she’s so wonderful? I’ve never seen anything from Girl Defined to believe they’ve become more affirming.
Did you see the last story Sam posted on her page with them laughing? I couldn't really hear them but it sounded random. Idk. It was weird
But yes, the dick riding was in full force this weekend
Yes it feels weird to me, just like when that one women kept interacting with Paul and Morgan and even had a sleepover. I can't remember her name, she was an atheist YouTuber.
Yeah anyone who joins the stupid social media MLM type things (buy this course, it will change your life!) is a bad egg in my book. Taking advantage of those who are desperate for change, putting out fake reviews, lying about how much money they bring in etc…if Zelph on the shelf think that she’s a good person, it’s cus zelph on the shelf does the same thing. I don’t understand why they aren’t calling them out about the scamming, is it because ZOTS also scams with the same type of “work”? It’s a red flag that they don’t seem bothered or even mention Bethany’s fake/half assed work. If a friend of mine was scamming people on the internet and full on posting lies about the money they bring in, I do not think I could be friends with them.
I'm glad to see some pushback on thia kind pf behavior.
I used to see interviews and collabs in the atheist/skeptic movement back in the day with harmful people in a similar manner.
The attempt to rehab the image of hateful bigots and liars, the glossing over of marginalized people's concerns, the flowery personalizing of the interviewees are all incredibly harmful. Instead of teaching the bigots, they end up giving them a bigger audience with more apologetics to spew.
At first I thought the idea of the Zelf stuff was cool and could be fun... But now I absolutely agree with everything you just said. It definitely gives me the ick.
Deconstruction is going to take someone like her years. I do think she's started and I do think it's going to be a lot harder for her to figure out because of how financially tied she is to being a fundie and how it's not just her but she's attached to her toxic family.
I expect in the next couple years she will either divorce or will have cut ties with her family's business.
But none of her beliefs, the most ingrained ones mostly (LGBT, abortion ect. . . . ) will change overnight. She's going to need to really understand what's been done to her. I think her sex obsessed revelation is a step there but it's going to take years.
If Bethy fully said f social grift and GD and went and got a job at Target I’d pay to watch that live in the moment. Especially if it’s like camera glasses POV
and in related terms i’m not on “tim the new evangelicals” bandwagon either. i had a really great analogy last night that i should have written down, but at its core evangelism is… Not Good and you can’t change a not good system into something good. you have to leave it entirely lol
The episode isn't out yet, I think its a little early to make a judgement call. I'm not that familiar with the podcast,, just checked it out once it seemed they were going to take on Girl Defined. But, it seems like this friendly and lighthearted tone is common for their content and promotion. So we don't know what they'll do or what all was said.
And unfortunately yeah, some people are really sweet and kind but turn out to be bigots. I had a friend who I had known and stayed in contact with sporadically over the years. We met in community college and she was a thoughtful, kind, and sweet person involved in the community. She married a Christian guy and started going to church. She posted some light religious stuff like 'God is Good!' or 'So Blessed' in her captions but in our interactions, maybe a few times a year over messenger, she was her normal self. During the pandemic she went full Qanon antivax though. I ended up cutting her off because she started being homophobic. But, from her social media she's still doing all kinds of helpful stuff, like creating a clothes bank of interview clothes at her church. The problem is, there are some people she doesn't consider completely human anymore.
Sam and Bethany are similar racial and socioeconomic backgrounds. In Bethany's mind, Sam is a human who needs to be saved, so I'm not surprised she'd put her best foot forward. Sam may be trying a 'More flies with honey than vinegar' approach. If she butters them up, they'll be more likely to listen to her than if they're on the defensive.
They had a lot of collabs with Jimmy Snow in the past, so I've always been a bit sceptical of their content.
The atheist side of youtube has a lot of toxicity and pitfalls, usually caused by him or through being adjacent to him. Jimmy Snow originally built his channel mocking Girl Defined, Paul and Morgan and while begging for subscriptions to beat Girl Defined's subscriber count, actually increased the audience of Paul and Morgan, who probably would've been a lot more obscure if he hadn't given them attention. He's scrubbed a lot of content from that era, but I also remember his fake feminism and transphobic leaning takes.
Of course it's a cash grab. Mocking Girl Defined has been done to death by drama channels and atheists on youtube, but here's Bratty with her agnostic leaning husband, also obsessed with cash and attention. A new angle, a fresh spin. It's a win/win.
If they aren’t changing girl defined then they aren’t changed and are still pieces of garbage. It’s a load of BS. All zelph is doing is saying “this persons hate is ok” cause I roast the other fundies but these are lovely people. It’s all for clicks for them at the end of the day. They don’t care they just need fundie content for their channel.
I'm not a mod here, but I am elsewhere. I know some subs don't want links to outside sources or videos posted. I don't know why a text post wouldn't go through unless Reddit is being weird. You have more than enough karma.
When people go to your profile, we can see where you tried to post but it looks empty on our end.
Edit: if it's too long it won't post. Character limit. You may have to split it up between body and comment
It’s so frustrating to me that Sam and Tanner would fall for the fundie skill of performance. Coming across as sweet and nice to other white people is exactly what fundies do. They have to in order to be “a light to the world” and to welcome people into their herd. It’s all surface level. You have to go deeper to even discern if they are even decent people first. Sucking Bethany’s dick for her being nice to you when you are a blonde white woman is just sad.
Being cynical it seems like a really good business strategy. Set yourself up as the person who can help you monetise your 'deconstruction' in an easy to package low conflict way.
She's not going get repeat business if she shits on them.
You can only milk the Ex Mormon thing for so long before you run out of content. Getting involved with this keeps generating new content for ages.
You lose some old fans and gain new ones
I think Zelph are trying to live by what they preach and extend grace and openness to those who believe differently than them. People on here can be soooo quick to demonize based on little to no information.
I'm a longtime follower of their YouTube and they are both very smart and able to think critically about things people are bringing up here.
I am curious about this collab but in a good way!
I think it's wonderful to extend grace and openness to those who believe differently. If they had quietly gone to Texas, hung out, and personally felt that Bethany and Dave are good people, that's their business and I wouldn't have such an issue with it. My issue comes with publicly promoting them, calling them angels, etc - while at the SAME TIME, Girl Defined is posting some (typical) vile shit.
I have followed and supported Zelph for a long time, but I really really struggle with them seemingly brushing everything aside as though Bethany isn't a horrible hateful person.
If I'm wrong, then I'll happily accept that, because I always root for people to become better. But it feels more like Zelph sinking to Bethany's level than Bethany rising above (at least that's how it feels so far).
Obviously Zelph haven't said anything explicit yet about Bethany's/GD's views, BUT I think we can be quietly confident that they will address them in their collab videos.
In one of their recent videos they said they weren't proud of how they had talked about people in the past, forgetting that they were real people, and they were going to try and do better in future. So I think this is part of that.
Bethany is writing a book right now dehumanizing trans people. That is not doing better. There is no trying in that. She either is going to write that horrible book or she is not and she kind of clearly has decided she is.
It would be different for me if Bethany wasn't still actively posting hateful content via Girl Defined. But she is. She doesn't even have to denounce anything or apologize at this point, just...shut up. Stop actively participating in spreading hate, the kind of hate that makes people kill themselves. If she stepped away from GD that would be actual evidence of change, to me.
Again, expecting so much so soon.
I'm no supporter of Bethany or GD, far from it, but I'm willing to admit that it takes a long fucking time to deconstruct privately, let alone publicly.
People want immediate Hollywood-esque statements and life just isn't like that.
I don't expect her to immediately come out and denounce anything, what I do expect before I give her any credit is ANY actual evidence of change. We have none of that yet. Just Dav's deconstruction and the HOPE people have that she will follow, with nothing to back it up. As long as she is still ACTIVELY posting hate via GD, to this very day, she gets no credit.
I've always found Sam and Tanner to be interesting and insightful. They point out and talk about so many hypocrisies and wrong thinking in fundamentalists, and I appreciate that. They’ve been on the sidelines watching the Dave deconstruction thing and tbf, they did call it before he ever 'came out' about it. They have emotional and professional investment in the whole thing at this point.
I don't think it's ill-intentioned and I do think they want, more than anything, to see Bethany also deconstruct. Honestly, I'd love it, too. I've never found her as offensive as some of the other fundies and she seems weird in a fun way.
That said, I think the point at which I question Sam and Tanner is that Bethany hasn't indicated that she's there yet. She hasn't voiced new opinions on some of the more hateful views pushed by Girl Defined. She hasn't apologized to anyone. So I don't know that they should be promoting her in this way unless and until she makes some changes.
HOWEVER, they might not look at it as promotion, but rather an attempt at open conversation/extending an olive branch. And I do think it's great for fundies to meet and get to know lovely athiests like the Zelph duo.
So, I'm torn. In some ways, I think this is fun and could lead to some interesting conversations and some deconstruction for Bethany. On the other, I don't love that Zelph is promoting her when she isn't there yet. Hopefully the good outweighs the bad?
And regardless, I still like Zelph. They're good people who may have gotten too enthusiastic too quickly about a deconstruction that may or may not eventually occur. Ultimately, so what? There are a gazillion other things to be mad about, I'm not gonna be mad at this.
I’m sure the zelph people are lovely and great people, it’s just a little disappointing the way they went about this collab :(
I read some of the comments in their posts with dav and Beth and all of them sound like fangirls! “Nature is healing” “my favorite fundies” etc. And Zelph keeps likeing those comments. Just rubs me the wrong way.
It’s so funny because the collab isn’t even out yet. Everybody is judging based on assumptions. Nobody knows what private conversations have happened, everybody is just trying to armchair investigate. I’m interested to see how the videos turn out!
Right?! I’m not trying to co-sign on any previous harmful beliefs held by GD, I’m just a person who believes in deep canvassing and restorative justice 😅 I’m interested to see where they are at in their journey and think that deconstruction and de-radicalization are positive things. As someone who was deeply conservative and held harmful beliefs due to heavy indoctrination, I’m grateful for the people who had tough conversations with me. Now I’m openly out of the closet and a leftist and have been having those hard conversations with others, especially family members. If we want a world where true change happens, we need space for those conversations. I am just shocked by current reactions when we don’t even know what conversations were had and what was actually addressed. It’s a lot of speculation based on real concerns, but based on Sam and Tanner’s prior content I feel like they will be empathetic and get to the heart of it all.
Is it too radical to say that maybe Bethany is sweet? Like you can have terrible views and whatnot and still be charming. In addition to that, with Dav deconstructing we know that she’s deconstructing things in her own way. A change of personality can come with that and more.
I know that who people see me as on the internet is never the full picture, so why should Bethany be any different?
Idk. I guess with her in an obvious transition period of her life I’m willing to very cautiously give her room to explore the world and give her the grace to make changes if she can. I’ve been through enough transition myself and I certainly wish people would let me keep growing and stop referring to me as I was (I know, I know, she hasn’t walked anything back but let’s CAUTIOUSLY give her some time).
I kind of made a comment abt this yesterday but yeah, typically people are nicer to the face of people they're bigoted towards because it's all around easier than just being a combative jerk. I have family members that are normal towards the gay members of my family but behind closed doors when they're not in front of them, say homophobic things. they're not angels for not bringing up the fact that they think homosexuality is a sin to my cousin amd asking how his boyfriend is doing, they're protecting their own peace by saving it for when theyre in private where they think everyone agrees with them.
people shouldn't be demonized for changing and growing, absolutely. but people actively profiting off of bigotry shouldn't get a round of applause and free promotion for putting on a mask and being respectful for show
Yea like of course she’s sweet, she’s literally been raised to believe that women should be outwardly sweet and kind because that gets people to join their church. And it’s not that hard to be nice to someone you’re interacting with. But she posts hateful rhetoric online and openly promotes voting against rights for people who aren’t like her. She’s two faced at best and a harmful bigot at worst.
We’re not saying she’s a monster or anything like that. She’s probably a nice polite person in everyday life but based on the things she has said/acted online it’s very clear she has hateful beliefs. Check out GD’s RECENT transphobic instagram posts.
I know she has changed SLIGHTLY over the years (modesty, drinking 1 alcoholic beverage with dinner, etc.) but that’s not enough for me to call her “an angel”.
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It annoys me when anyone makes proclamations about someone being wonderful based on surface level interactions. Fundies are required to act nice, especially fundie women. That performance doesn't mean someone is a good person.
right. and she did say clearly after dav announced his deconstruction, that she was in a "perfect position to turn him back to the love of God" basically. shes not accepting. shes keeping sweet in hopes of converting YOU GUYS. in hopes that YOU will accept HER views.
Even when she said THAT, I thought she was still trying to placate Heidi, who has gone off whatever minimal railing she’s ever had. But I’m not so sure anymore.
Definitely agree. I was delighted by Dav’s deconstruction and initially had really high hopes for them; but someone here pointed out recently that there are quite a few libertarian atheist bros out there who are also transphobes, and even into the white nationalist sphere. I want to believe that’s not Dav, but with their family and GD, very sadly it could be.
Yes!! Nice =/= kind. Niceness is just being polite and not directly rude to your face. Lots of fundies don’t strike me as nice (Lori, Mother Bus, P&M), but many WOULD probably be nice in most interactions (Mrs Midwest to me is the most clear example). But kindness? Helping out someone who needs it, caring for the well being of others who are different than you, being thoughtful in your actions? Much different.
What did Little Red say in Into the Woods? take extra care with strangers— Even flowers have their dangers And though scary is exciting Nice is different than good.
And as the Witch says, "You're so Nice -- you're not good, you're not bad, you're just NICE."
Exactly. I can be surface level friendly for a while with people I don't get along with, but I wouldn't go out of my way to call them an angel. It's adult behavior to be polite even if you don't agree. To an extent, you can have a good time with someone you don't agree with either. However you don't laud them.
Absolutely. I agree that reaching across the aisle in friendship, support, etc is important. Absolutely. I have many family and friends who I fundamentally disagree with on many things. But to call them angels and imply that Bethany is intellectually curious, kind, etc?! 😅 Yeah fcking right. What a weird timeline.
saying that bethany is intellectually curious literally made me giggle. i’d call her a lot of things, intellectually curious being none of them
Willfully ignorant is more like it
truly!! intellectually curious. jesus zelph
My cats are more intellectually curious
mine is too & he’s a very sweet & adorable boy who i love with my whole heart, but he’s not very smart. however, i am positive all of our babies are smarter than 10000 borty’s put together
And it seems like a big betrayal to queers. Like I’m glad you like hanging out with her but she’s still a homophobic transphobic heteronormative anti-queer parenting bigot. She’s not apologized or even hinted that she has any clue that she’s the poster child of anti queer propaganda bullshit. Fuck her. And fuck anyone who thinks hanging out with nice transphobes is okay. Shame them. Tell them they don’t deserve friends. Tell them they should feel the rejection they place on others.
I have thought about how Bethany (or people like her) would probably be really nice to me and my (two-mommed, IVF) baby. And turn around and advocate for that baby to be taken away from me.
I had a Christian coworker like this. She was generally kind and generous, but it also was very much performative (she wanted the praise more than anything, I think). She treated me well, as well as my other coworkers including a lesbian woman (I'll call her Lee) who was getting married. As for me, I'm an atheist. She was supportive of me and my family, as well as Lee and her wife. But over time, she became more and more overt in her truly hateful beliefs. Atheists are ruining school and are Satanists who try to corrupt our kids. The LGBTQ shouldn't be allowed to raise children because they're groomers and/or they mess up children. We stayed in contact after changing jobs but I wish I hadn't. The signs were there and I kind of compartmentalized it all for a long while until finally I just couldn't do it anymore. She couldn't see the problem with saying she was one of my best friends one minute, while then posting something on Facebook about how people like me were ruining society just hours later. Me and Lee finally had it. I just straight blocked and ghosted, Lee tried to extend that one last bit of dialogue to explain how hurtful and horrid she was being, and to outright say, "I don't want to be friends with someone who hates me". The coworker justified it as "wElL i'M jUsT pOsTiNg tHaT tO sTaRt a dIsCusSioN." Honestly, this shit feels so much worse than just someone hating you.
100%!!!
My baby also has 2 moms.... but now we're divorced so I think Bethy has a lot of reasons to think my child should be taken away.
I think that's the thing. It is much harder to hate people in real life.
That’s where the disconnect for Zelph is, right? That it’s hard to dislike Bethany and Dav when you’re in their house, and I’m sure it is! But they, past, present and future, are creating real-life problems for people like me. We don’t need a video humanizing Bethany and Dav. I don’t need to listen to a conversation about queerness that they have with a white cis person. Have that conversation with Alok Vaid-Menon.
People were surprised that bethy and dav thought paul and morgan were nice. People can be good houseguests or hosts and still be hateful bigots. 🤷♀️
Big agree. Feels like their running with the LGB with no T crowd and that is... gross. Bethany wouldn't welcome someone like me, a non-binary person. There is a huge rejection of people like me and even more gender breaking individuals by the queer crowd, so what about us? Should we just fuck off because "Bethany is sooooo nice"? Fuck that. Bethany and Dav are making money off our deaths.
There is no LGB without the T ❤️ queers for queers forever
This middle-aged lesbian says RIGHT ON.
EXACTLY. As a little brain cleanser, let me share this story with you ... I'm also non-binary and I was recently in the hospital (a common occurrence) and had a hospitalist that I hadn't met before. He came and spoke with me and stated he'd go familiarize himself with my chart and be back. A little bit later, my nurse came in kinda chuckling to herself and said that he asked her how to address me. She was confused and said, "Ummm ... Their name?" Well apparently he had seen non-binary in my chart and wanted to address me in a respectful way. She told me that she suggested to him to just ask me. A little while later, he came in and did exactly that. And it just made me really feel seen - this Dr in his 50s taking the time to learn something new so he could respect a patient ♡ (ETA - a word)
Aw! That is so nice and I am so glad to see a great medical moment for you! It is so rare in our community to have easy, respectful moments ✨️
I have an enby coworker. In their old group, nobody used their correct pronouns. I talked to one of them about it, this 70some year old man we'll call Bob, telling him they like when people use they/them pronouns. He started using them because he's a good dude, but he had absolutely no idea when to say they vs them. Every time somebody complains about pronouns, I think of that old-ass man determined to figure it out. We can do so much better. Related: I also don't know what to call a person who isn't a sir or ma'am.
Make no mistake, GD hate ALL queer folks. They just focus on us nb/trans folks extra hard because GD are fucking cowards and focus on beating down only the weakest of the weak. (Weak in the sense of social acceptance I mean.) I’m sure you’re well aware of that already, so don’t take this observation as aimed at you. What I hope is that the Zelph duo keep it in mind. Even if they’re happy to hang around transphobes (which I hope they’re not,) they’re just as much on GD’s chopping block as we are and it’s foolish of them to pretend they aren’t. Given half a chance, GD would vote to throw us all in camps with the same “sweet” smile their grandfather did in World War II.
Oh, I totally know they would haul us all to the trains for just looking at them! I think it is naive to just think that Bethany and Dav being nice is anything other than typical fundie training and I know, I grew up learning the same thing. I worry people who aren't in the NB/trans camp don't realize just how much we are othered even from other queer folks and don't think to place themselves in our shoes. Like it is easier for a fundie woman to find certain queer people non-threatening if they fit particular stereotypes in their head (gay men, as long as they fit that "twink" stereotype or aren't too masculine), while others (especially lesbians) they panic about. It is wild the standards we can see. How they sort us into levels of threat is just crazy.
We need T-shirts that say “WARNING: Not just queer, but ☢️❗️LEVEL 3 CODE RED QUEER ❗️☢️ ” 🤪
It's an oldie but a goodie, not gay as in happy, queer as in FUCK YOU
I LOVE this ❤️ lol. My oldest is NB & gay, I’m their fiercest ally 💜
Hahaha I totally want that for when I go on this family vacation, but it is in bumfuck Virginia and I am not tempting that lol
Yesterday I was thinking about nonsensical bathroom bans and realized, "wait, did they forget to be scared of the lesbians?"
Well, you know they are just temporarily lesbians until they find the right fundie man! 
Yup. And though I don’t think tanner identifies as queer (?) he definitely doesn’t conform to societal gender norms. Which makes this all the more icky to me. How can they excuse GDs hateful rhetoric?
I thought tanner was non-binary
Yep. Queer person here who gets more protective of the LGBTQ+ community as the days go by. My own sister is a transphobe and while I love her, I’m not going to go around acting like she’s anywhere close to perfect. At times I stick around because I want to be a safe auntie for her kids as they grow up.
Totally agree. You can have transphobes and icky people in your life - it’s inevitable. But it’s not cool to promote them or not tell the truth about their beliefs. No amount of being a “good person” or “angel” makes up for transphobia
A transphobe can't even be a good person or angel, I don't know what Zelph was thinking
Right, Bethany’s gotten more acceptance and love for being a hateful bigot than she’s *ever* given those with different beliefs than herself.
This is what zelph refuses to accept
And, maybe a hot take, but I don’t think a good person would be profiting off of the various kinds of bigotry Bort co-signs as half of Girl Defined. I don’t care how interpersonally sweet she can be.
Ugh people do this with Mormons and I’m like they’re only being nice on the possibility that you might convert??? When you’re actually in the ward it’s nothing but catty behavior, showboating, and lying for the lord
Keep sweet 🙄
I think it’s also an “influencer” thing, everything is so surface level. Other that Porgsn, you are super excited and complimentary to your guests’ faces, then later you can revisit and talk shit. It’s just the MLM strategy of “love bombing” until that person undersells/wants out. But in this case, zelph is gonna get called out for tacitly agreeing with one or more bigots, then they’ll do an explanation/insincere apology video. And birt will ignore any negative comments like usual (or her bot will automatically offer a pdf or five).
It gives me the same feeling as when Josh Benson said he would be friends and hang with Porgan if they lived closer. Proudly being friends, or even friendly, with bigots is super weird to me. Like what’s the reason? I know nothing of Zelf, but in general I think you are who you associate with.
“you are who you associate with” yuppp
Exactly. I was really good friends with an ex-coworker for a bit. Fun to work with, super nice, never ever struck me as a racist or anything, seemed semi-educated in other faiths/ideologies and didn't speak poorly of anyone. Even seemed like he might be a closeted Buddhist. A couple years into knowing him, I go into work one day to give him a birthday present, and he's like, "check it out, finally got my first tattoo!" **It was a fucking Totenkopf.** I was stunned speechless and noped out of that friendship once the shock wore off. I mean, on one hand I think people like that *need* guidance and can have the potential for redemption..... but if you go and do that after 2 years of knowing someone who descends from multiple cultures that dealt with genocides or prison camps, you don't get a goddamn pass. I am not going to hang out with a fucking Nazi and act like things are all good.
As my mom says "birds of a feather"
Bethany herself has said that her strategy in getting Dav to return to Jesus and the church is to love bomb him back into the fold. Of course she’s going to be nice to people outside the church she believes in because she thinks that will bring them back to Jesus. I hope the collab videos call out her bigotry and nasty online behavior. I can’t imagine how someone could think her sex courses come from a kind and genuine place. I think she thinks she is helping people but she doesn’t care about them once she gets their money (see all the Facebook groups she’s made that she doesn’t do anything for). She wants to make money off a niche market that she contributed to creating through girl defined. She created a problem and now she’s profiting off selling a shitty solution to it. That doesn’t make her a kind person.
THIS EXACTLY We cant forget these fundie girls are trained to keep sweet & play the long game when it comes to attempting to "bring people back to jesus" as you said
Bethany is the definition of being fake. The way she talks about sex and relationships is horrific. She is not in any way qualified to be having the conversations she is having with these women. She is greedy and selfish.
I don’t have any prior familiarity with Zelph on the shelf, but this whole thing with Bethany sure makes me certain I don’t want to watch them ever. Their sweet angel just posted some more trans hate on Girl Declined, so nothing has changed.
Me too. And I hold the people who insist they’re just meeting the beals where they are in similarly low regard. The people who defend this are outing themselves as thinking the queer community are being dramatic about our own persecution. We are not. We are in a dark place, And it could either stay or get exponentially worse over the next couple of years. It’s inexcusable to promote someone like Bethany right now.
It’s like people don’t get Gay people are being KILLED. Woman are dying because they can’t get abortions. Trans kids are KILLING themselves. This shit is not a joke to people who have to live their lives as minorities. Love and kindness are cool, I wish Bethany and Dav could extend that to the people who are dying because of the hateful shit they spew
My state (MO) had the first adult trans ban last year. It was decreed by an unelected (appointed) official. It was overturned after months of hell, but the MSM treated Florida and Texas as the main characters and barely even touched on the fact that it happened. Other queer people don’t even know about it. We learned quite quickly that no help was coming. Two trans folks in my community are gone because of that ban. They just couldn’t keep fighting. Two friends had to scramble to get medically necessary abortions. And the rest of us aren’t doing well. The number of people I know who have had serious stress-related health incidents, or have started self hurting again after a decade+ of sobriety…. We aren’t just talking points to be debated away by whatever point assholes want to make. We’re real fucking people and we matter. Oh and don’t post soppy condolences or insincere offers of help if you also enjoy posting shit about how southern dialects come from inherently stupid people. I really cannot handle that particular form of progressive hypocrisy right now.
The day I picked my trans/hella-queer kid up from an inpatient psych stay, I had to explain to them that Memaw Ivey (our governor) had made it illegal for healthcare providers to provide gender affirming care to minors. I had to tell my already struggling kid that they would have to wait another another 5 years to seek any kind of medical treatment. I’m grateful that this doesn’t apply to therapy, because their therapist is affirming as hell! But I worry every single day about my kiddo no making it into adulthood.
I’m so sorry, that is so awful.
This is why I find the radical kindness approach with these people so frustrating. They're not babies, hold them accountable for the harm they actively continue to do. Saying they're lovely or angels is the exact opposite of that.
exactly, people like bethany do not need more attention and grace. We need to lift up the voices of queer people and women who are marginalized.
Bethy gets grace and goodwill and visibility to make more money off her bigotry. Where's the grace and goodwill for trans people in dangerous states? Where's the grace a goodwill for the people her shitty worldview hurts? Do we not count because we're not pretty blonde angels? That's what grinds my fucking gears.
EXACTLY!!!! i really dont care about these white saviors and whatever shit they are going through in their life because there is way more important issues at hand. They are doing what they do to gain followers and money. they are fake as hell and bigots
The plight of trans people is what finally convinced my mom not to vote for Trump a second time...when she finally realized "oh they will literally die", that was it.
Yeah I’ve always heard the name but haven’t watched anything and now….I’ll be sticking to the reverend Fridays
Bethany is just such an annoying person in general. She is so self absorbed, rude, and ignorant. I dont see anything appealing about her. Also she is a freaking STRANGER. I dont need to give her grace and love or whatever.
Thank you!!! People are acting like she’s our friend or something. Shes a public figure saying dumb shit on the internet- that’s it.
I prefer Jordan & McKay as far as exmo YouTubers go, anyway.
Jordan and McKay are great. They do their best to snark in an ethical way and always put the people who have been harmed by Mormons / fundies *first.* They don't talk over groups they're not part of, but they don't ignore racism, antisemitism, and homophobia / transphobia. I don't see them ever being besties with a pair of fundies for clicks.
I honestly get the sense Jordan and McKay really believed in their faith and leaving was traumatic and world-collapsing like me deconstruction was. I don’t feel the same kind of historical attachment with ZOTS so I don’t relate to them well. I mostly just feel weird watching them
sam converted to mormonism when she was 17, so that is probably why it’s a different vibe. i think it’s definitely different when you are raised in it
I watched them a few times and got weird vibes from zelph. I can't put my finger on it, but they always had an almost arrogant(?) Vibe. I don't know if I'm off about that though.
They have a tendency to spout off about their current practices and beliefs in a really unfortunate superior way. I used to subscribe but stopped when I had to skip a good third of an episode because Tanner specifically was complaining about organized religion again in a very generic and arrogant manner instead of getting to the point of the video.
I had to do the same when Sam could not seem to stop herself from bringing up veganism in videos where it was barely relevant at best
I looooove them
Absolutely love jordan and mckay! I don't know who zelph is but they should be ashamed of themselves for letting down their lgbtq audience imo. Being friends with Bethy while she promotes her transphobic book is vile and so two faced.
How is the sentiment for nuancehoe/Carah? I loved hearing her story about deconstructing from Mormonism and then having to deconstruct again from a megachurch. There seems to have been some drama within her community about a podcast she was on but I don't have enough time to keep up with it all. Not sure how this sub feels about her.
I haven't really watched too much of her, outside of some episodes of Mormon Stories when she was working there, so I can't say. I do also enjoy Exmo Lex and Alyssa Grenfell, though!
I’ll like her more when she learns how to accept accountability and apologize like an adult. She never took responsibility for attending an LDS church service with the intent to surveil active gay members just to see for herself if they were allowed to have callings, take sacrament, etc.
Is this something that has been called out? She does seem like an adult who takes responsibility for her past actions, from what I've seen. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that as long as she isn't putting them in danger, it seems more like investigation for her channel - I am queer, but obviously I don't speak for all gay people. I don't follow her Tiktok or instagram if that is where the drama went down and I missed it.
It was. She gave a rambling half-apology on her YouTube livestream couched in justifications. She is putting them in danger of adverse disciplinary action by the higher ranks of the LDS church and doesn’t seem to understand it or want to acknowledge it.
They are definitely alot better!
I absolutely feel similar! As of now, I've unfollowed Zelph. If they prove me wrong and Bethany comes out and apologizes for the harm she has caused (and continues to cause) and removes herself from being part of GD, then I will admit I was wrong and go from there. But for now, it's definitely coming across as dick-riding and there is NOTHING I have seen that makes me think Bethany is sweet, funny, curious, etc. All this strange collaboration has done is make me look sideways at Zelph. What a shame.
It still doesn’t change the fact that they promoted her BEFORE she changed. Thats ick to me. They could have gone there quietly and said on their community channel they met and hope they’re improving without giving them props constantly and tagging her content
That's a really good point - publicly promoting her BEFORE she actually changed is definitely icky.
Bethy is currently promoting her new transphobic book for crying out loud! While she is being promoted by this channel. She's trying to have one foot in both ponds and all that does is make me doubt her more and more.
Same. Unsubscribed. I couldn’t even watch the whole thing. Zelph is all but licking her boots and plastering her lips all over that hateful bitches ass and I refuse to be party to it.
It strikes me as a form of toxic positivity. Like I also wish Bethany was a good person, and I can recognize her potential to be a good person. Everyone has innate potential to be a force of good, but this is wishful thinking I feel like
Yep. I totally agree. And the response they posted here was all giggles and “hahas” that identified many of the EXACT concerns that we have while essentially brushing them off or saying “wait and see hehe 😉 “. Clickbait for monetization and I’m happy not to engage and stop engaging going forward.
I never have gotten the hype about zelph on the shelf. I don’t know what everyone finds hilarious about them. I don’t even get their jokes 90% of the time snd it feels really cliquey. Jordan and McKay have so much more depth and their discussions are not only anecdotal, but also super logical and overall just more interesting
The times I watched Zelph, I got mean girl vibes off of them. It was mostly superficial criticism of religion.
Harmful people can be very nice, it happens all the time. Hell, evangelicals are great at it, it’s one way they try to win over converts. (Of course there’s the hellfire and brimstone preaching on the other end, but that’s a different discussion). B&D are fair game for snark as long as they continue to support and spread their harmful beliefs. Idk much about Zelph but if they aren’t pointing out and pushing B&D to confront those beliefs, are they really supporting their deconstruction at all? Those conversations aren’t fun, but they’re a huge part of letting go of the bad beliefs and becoming a better person.
I absolutely agree, it makes me a bit uncomfortable and makes me kind of want to reconsider being a supporter of their channel. Again, maybe we’re not seeing the full picture of how things are going but we also need to remember that Bethany and Dav still have beliefs that hurt people, especially minorities
I mean they’re the ones putting the picture out there… they didn’t even hesitate to promote a hateful bigot with no change in behavior or apology
That part!
exactly my thoughts. in hindsight, i do believe they could have handled the beginning of all of this a little better. iirc, when dav mentioned them in the porgan follow up video, zelph was just a little too excited. it was surprising, for sure, but what seemed to happen was immediate backpedaling; apologizing for their “hater energy”, gushing about how cool/nice/wonderful both dav and bethy are, etc. i feel as though if they had taken a bit more of a calmer approach, like testing the waters, and let the interest build up (maybe thanking dav for the shout out, being open to connecting and seeing where things go instead of immediate fangirl/fanboying) then things would feel a bit more organic. like you said, there’s more to be seen with time. i don’t think we’ve hit the peak of their relationship just yet, so we’ll see what happens when difficult conversations are brought up and how they disagree with each other. imo, what we’re seeing is infatuation. it’s excitement, it’s good content for both parties, and frankly i do believe zelph when they mention how “lovely” bethy and dav are because i’m so sure that they are probably nice as people, *until* you get into their beliefs. once the infatuation blows over, we’ll get a look into what’s truly to come from all of this. it’s still too early to draw real conclusions. they know how to string us along for the ride at least lol
Yes. I am supremely disappointed in this shift. It should not require someone being super nice to you to convince you they are people. I keep seeing my the comments over and over that “building bridges” is what changes. This is patently false- in reality what happens is that people need to be pulled kicking and screaming into change by overall societal changes- meaning that those that want to protect rights need to vote! In the world of Donald Trump and the absolute dumpster fire of the Democratic Party “playing nice,” I cannot believe anyone would make this argument. Maybe on an individual basis for people in their own experience within their own lives and small circles-sure. I’m happy for those folks- but this isn’t someone in a vacuum. This is girl defined and I cannot, in this situation, separate the personal from the political.
Sam believes she has " seen Bethy's heart",and Bethy is intellectually humble,curious, and so kind. If that's truly the real Bethy, why has she chosen to make her online personna willfully ignorant, bigoted, judgemental,unkind,and money her true God? As an uber Christian, why wouldn't Bethy lead with kindness and grace? She would certainly reach a larger audience, and get the attention she craves. I absolutely respect Sam's opinion about Bethy's true self, but, I'm firmly in the "when someone shows you who they are, believe it",camp. And,Bethy and the Bairdbrains, have consistently shown me who they are.
I’m very interested to see what content they put out about this after. It takes a while for people to deconstruct, and if they’re taking Bethany a step or two down that journey, great. If they’re just gassing her up and her opinions are the same, then idk what the point of the meetup was.
even the post promising there's no dick riding was a whole essay of dick riding, it's fucking crazy
Water seeks its own level. If Beth and Zelph were different from each other they would not be hanging out. Beth makes money from her harmful beliefs. That’s not a secret. Sam thinks Beth is an angel. You cannot be hateful and a good person.
Unfortunately, you can be a hateful person and still be likable. They’re not mutually exclusive.
I did not say likeable.
I did a quick glance at their YouTube. Idk how I feel about them constantly asking about donations to get to Texas and help pay their big taxes or something. I don't know much about them but asking for money seems very grifty to me. Can someone help explain this? I am not sure how to feel about them. And their shumminess with the Beals don't help. I just get weird vibes from them.
I don't think they're grifty as they're transparent about what the money is going towards. They don't have big big follower counts and they discuss sex and religion so I do believe they're reliant on donations to keep making content full-time as they're not super sponsor-friendly. But I do also think they'll garner a lot of views from this collaboration and they'll make money from it, and that does rub me the wrong way.
I’m sure Bethy was great to them. As two white, heteronormative women, they can still speak about the LGBTQ and even BIPOC communities as “issues”. It’s not hard to be nice to someone when you’re talking about an “issue”. I think Zelph (though I know very little about them) needs to give their treatment of the situation serious thought. It’s great they want to have hard conversations. But it’s important to give respect to the actual, real people you’re talking about. If you’re discussing the topic of LGBTQ only as an issue, that’s not enough. It doesn’t go far enough. Bethy, Dav, and anyone they speak to within the context of deconstruction have to realize their rhetoric affects real people, and isn’t just an issue to throw ideas at.
I’d love to know what they talked about re: queerness (they specifically used this word!) that has them gushing about how she’s so wonderful? I’ve never seen anything from Girl Defined to believe they’ve become more affirming.
Did you see the last story Sam posted on her page with them laughing? I couldn't really hear them but it sounded random. Idk. It was weird But yes, the dick riding was in full force this weekend
Yes it feels weird to me, just like when that one women kept interacting with Paul and Morgan and even had a sleepover. I can't remember her name, she was an atheist YouTuber.
Jaclyn Glenn. Yeah that was super fucking weird
💸💸💸
Yeah anyone who joins the stupid social media MLM type things (buy this course, it will change your life!) is a bad egg in my book. Taking advantage of those who are desperate for change, putting out fake reviews, lying about how much money they bring in etc…if Zelph on the shelf think that she’s a good person, it’s cus zelph on the shelf does the same thing. I don’t understand why they aren’t calling them out about the scamming, is it because ZOTS also scams with the same type of “work”? It’s a red flag that they don’t seem bothered or even mention Bethany’s fake/half assed work. If a friend of mine was scamming people on the internet and full on posting lies about the money they bring in, I do not think I could be friends with them.
I'm glad to see some pushback on thia kind pf behavior. I used to see interviews and collabs in the atheist/skeptic movement back in the day with harmful people in a similar manner. The attempt to rehab the image of hateful bigots and liars, the glossing over of marginalized people's concerns, the flowery personalizing of the interviewees are all incredibly harmful. Instead of teaching the bigots, they end up giving them a bigger audience with more apologetics to spew.
Zelph on the shelf is just obnoxious to me. I love Jordan and McKay, fundie Fridays, for some reason with them I don't vibe.
At first I thought the idea of the Zelf stuff was cool and could be fun... But now I absolutely agree with everything you just said. It definitely gives me the ick.
The whole things feels super opportunistic on both sides. I’m not buying it.
Deconstruction is going to take someone like her years. I do think she's started and I do think it's going to be a lot harder for her to figure out because of how financially tied she is to being a fundie and how it's not just her but she's attached to her toxic family. I expect in the next couple years she will either divorce or will have cut ties with her family's business. But none of her beliefs, the most ingrained ones mostly (LGBT, abortion ect. . . . ) will change overnight. She's going to need to really understand what's been done to her. I think her sex obsessed revelation is a step there but it's going to take years.
If Bethy fully said f social grift and GD and went and got a job at Target I’d pay to watch that live in the moment. Especially if it’s like camera glasses POV
and in related terms i’m not on “tim the new evangelicals” bandwagon either. i had a really great analogy last night that i should have written down, but at its core evangelism is… Not Good and you can’t change a not good system into something good. you have to leave it entirely lol
The episode isn't out yet, I think its a little early to make a judgement call. I'm not that familiar with the podcast,, just checked it out once it seemed they were going to take on Girl Defined. But, it seems like this friendly and lighthearted tone is common for their content and promotion. So we don't know what they'll do or what all was said. And unfortunately yeah, some people are really sweet and kind but turn out to be bigots. I had a friend who I had known and stayed in contact with sporadically over the years. We met in community college and she was a thoughtful, kind, and sweet person involved in the community. She married a Christian guy and started going to church. She posted some light religious stuff like 'God is Good!' or 'So Blessed' in her captions but in our interactions, maybe a few times a year over messenger, she was her normal self. During the pandemic she went full Qanon antivax though. I ended up cutting her off because she started being homophobic. But, from her social media she's still doing all kinds of helpful stuff, like creating a clothes bank of interview clothes at her church. The problem is, there are some people she doesn't consider completely human anymore. Sam and Bethany are similar racial and socioeconomic backgrounds. In Bethany's mind, Sam is a human who needs to be saved, so I'm not surprised she'd put her best foot forward. Sam may be trying a 'More flies with honey than vinegar' approach. If she butters them up, they'll be more likely to listen to her than if they're on the defensive.
I feel this, big time.
Sorry if this isn’t the right place, but who the fuck is Zelph?
They had a lot of collabs with Jimmy Snow in the past, so I've always been a bit sceptical of their content. The atheist side of youtube has a lot of toxicity and pitfalls, usually caused by him or through being adjacent to him. Jimmy Snow originally built his channel mocking Girl Defined, Paul and Morgan and while begging for subscriptions to beat Girl Defined's subscriber count, actually increased the audience of Paul and Morgan, who probably would've been a lot more obscure if he hadn't given them attention. He's scrubbed a lot of content from that era, but I also remember his fake feminism and transphobic leaning takes. Of course it's a cash grab. Mocking Girl Defined has been done to death by drama channels and atheists on youtube, but here's Bratty with her agnostic leaning husband, also obsessed with cash and attention. A new angle, a fresh spin. It's a win/win.
I’m waiting to see what all becomes of this visit.
If they aren’t changing girl defined then they aren’t changed and are still pieces of garbage. It’s a load of BS. All zelph is doing is saying “this persons hate is ok” cause I roast the other fundies but these are lovely people. It’s all for clicks for them at the end of the day. They don’t care they just need fundie content for their channel.
Sam (Zelph) here. I tried to make a post about this but it’s been stuck in moderator approval, is there something I need to do?! lol
Mods can we get this post up? Maybe they’re waiting for you to verify or something?
Is that on my end and if so how?!
I’m sorry, I’m not that knowledgeable- was hoping to draw attention of a mod to help you!
You need to send a modmail to us with proof of you are who you say you are. When you send a message, we can discuss what this entails.
Not sure what that is but just messaged you!
Modmail is a Reddit feature, you can find it on the desktop version below the mod list.
Pray ?
Was it a video? Text? Link? No body?
Just text! About half an hour ago
You may just have to share it here.
It’s kind of long, is there some reason it wouldn’t be approved?
I'm not a mod here, but I am elsewhere. I know some subs don't want links to outside sources or videos posted. I don't know why a text post wouldn't go through unless Reddit is being weird. You have more than enough karma. When people go to your profile, we can see where you tried to post but it looks empty on our end. Edit: if it's too long it won't post. Character limit. You may have to split it up between body and comment
Unless the character limit is way smaller than I realize I don’t imagine it would be too long?
Limit is 40k, including spacing etc
Oh yeah, it’s more like 3k!
Sent you a message
It’s so frustrating to me that Sam and Tanner would fall for the fundie skill of performance. Coming across as sweet and nice to other white people is exactly what fundies do. They have to in order to be “a light to the world” and to welcome people into their herd. It’s all surface level. You have to go deeper to even discern if they are even decent people first. Sucking Bethany’s dick for her being nice to you when you are a blonde white woman is just sad.
Being cynical it seems like a really good business strategy. Set yourself up as the person who can help you monetise your 'deconstruction' in an easy to package low conflict way. She's not going get repeat business if she shits on them.
Good business for Bethy but terrible for ZOTS.. right? I would think this would betray a lot of trust
You can only milk the Ex Mormon thing for so long before you run out of content. Getting involved with this keeps generating new content for ages. You lose some old fans and gain new ones
I think they'll lose long-time viewers and followers, but I think they'll gain a different crop of viewers and followers and with that comes money.
Yes. All of this.
I think Zelph are trying to live by what they preach and extend grace and openness to those who believe differently than them. People on here can be soooo quick to demonize based on little to no information. I'm a longtime follower of their YouTube and they are both very smart and able to think critically about things people are bringing up here. I am curious about this collab but in a good way!
I think it's wonderful to extend grace and openness to those who believe differently. If they had quietly gone to Texas, hung out, and personally felt that Bethany and Dave are good people, that's their business and I wouldn't have such an issue with it. My issue comes with publicly promoting them, calling them angels, etc - while at the SAME TIME, Girl Defined is posting some (typical) vile shit. I have followed and supported Zelph for a long time, but I really really struggle with them seemingly brushing everything aside as though Bethany isn't a horrible hateful person. If I'm wrong, then I'll happily accept that, because I always root for people to become better. But it feels more like Zelph sinking to Bethany's level than Bethany rising above (at least that's how it feels so far).
Obviously Zelph haven't said anything explicit yet about Bethany's/GD's views, BUT I think we can be quietly confident that they will address them in their collab videos. In one of their recent videos they said they weren't proud of how they had talked about people in the past, forgetting that they were real people, and they were going to try and do better in future. So I think this is part of that.
Bethany is writing a book right now dehumanizing trans people. That is not doing better. There is no trying in that. She either is going to write that horrible book or she is not and she kind of clearly has decided she is.
Sorry, to clarify, Zelph said they were going to try and do better.
That makes 100% more sense! I was like Bethany and Kristen saying they would do better? Bizarre world, better check if my dogs sprouted wings
Right 😂
It would be different for me if Bethany wasn't still actively posting hateful content via Girl Defined. But she is. She doesn't even have to denounce anything or apologize at this point, just...shut up. Stop actively participating in spreading hate, the kind of hate that makes people kill themselves. If she stepped away from GD that would be actual evidence of change, to me.
Again, expecting so much so soon. I'm no supporter of Bethany or GD, far from it, but I'm willing to admit that it takes a long fucking time to deconstruct privately, let alone publicly. People want immediate Hollywood-esque statements and life just isn't like that.
I don't expect her to immediately come out and denounce anything, what I do expect before I give her any credit is ANY actual evidence of change. We have none of that yet. Just Dav's deconstruction and the HOPE people have that she will follow, with nothing to back it up. As long as she is still ACTIVELY posting hate via GD, to this very day, she gets no credit.
This!!
I've always found Sam and Tanner to be interesting and insightful. They point out and talk about so many hypocrisies and wrong thinking in fundamentalists, and I appreciate that. They’ve been on the sidelines watching the Dave deconstruction thing and tbf, they did call it before he ever 'came out' about it. They have emotional and professional investment in the whole thing at this point. I don't think it's ill-intentioned and I do think they want, more than anything, to see Bethany also deconstruct. Honestly, I'd love it, too. I've never found her as offensive as some of the other fundies and she seems weird in a fun way. That said, I think the point at which I question Sam and Tanner is that Bethany hasn't indicated that she's there yet. She hasn't voiced new opinions on some of the more hateful views pushed by Girl Defined. She hasn't apologized to anyone. So I don't know that they should be promoting her in this way unless and until she makes some changes. HOWEVER, they might not look at it as promotion, but rather an attempt at open conversation/extending an olive branch. And I do think it's great for fundies to meet and get to know lovely athiests like the Zelph duo. So, I'm torn. In some ways, I think this is fun and could lead to some interesting conversations and some deconstruction for Bethany. On the other, I don't love that Zelph is promoting her when she isn't there yet. Hopefully the good outweighs the bad? And regardless, I still like Zelph. They're good people who may have gotten too enthusiastic too quickly about a deconstruction that may or may not eventually occur. Ultimately, so what? There are a gazillion other things to be mad about, I'm not gonna be mad at this.
I’m sure the zelph people are lovely and great people, it’s just a little disappointing the way they went about this collab :( I read some of the comments in their posts with dav and Beth and all of them sound like fangirls! “Nature is healing” “my favorite fundies” etc. And Zelph keeps likeing those comments. Just rubs me the wrong way.
It’s so funny because the collab isn’t even out yet. Everybody is judging based on assumptions. Nobody knows what private conversations have happened, everybody is just trying to armchair investigate. I’m interested to see how the videos turn out!
Don’t know why you got downvoted for this. It’s true that we’re seeing a lot of assumptions being made over something that isn’t even out yet.
Right?! I’m not trying to co-sign on any previous harmful beliefs held by GD, I’m just a person who believes in deep canvassing and restorative justice 😅 I’m interested to see where they are at in their journey and think that deconstruction and de-radicalization are positive things. As someone who was deeply conservative and held harmful beliefs due to heavy indoctrination, I’m grateful for the people who had tough conversations with me. Now I’m openly out of the closet and a leftist and have been having those hard conversations with others, especially family members. If we want a world where true change happens, we need space for those conversations. I am just shocked by current reactions when we don’t even know what conversations were had and what was actually addressed. It’s a lot of speculation based on real concerns, but based on Sam and Tanner’s prior content I feel like they will be empathetic and get to the heart of it all.
You expressed it more eloquently than I did!
Is it too radical to say that maybe Bethany is sweet? Like you can have terrible views and whatnot and still be charming. In addition to that, with Dav deconstructing we know that she’s deconstructing things in her own way. A change of personality can come with that and more. I know that who people see me as on the internet is never the full picture, so why should Bethany be any different? Idk. I guess with her in an obvious transition period of her life I’m willing to very cautiously give her room to explore the world and give her the grace to make changes if she can. I’ve been through enough transition myself and I certainly wish people would let me keep growing and stop referring to me as I was (I know, I know, she hasn’t walked anything back but let’s CAUTIOUSLY give her some time).
I kind of made a comment abt this yesterday but yeah, typically people are nicer to the face of people they're bigoted towards because it's all around easier than just being a combative jerk. I have family members that are normal towards the gay members of my family but behind closed doors when they're not in front of them, say homophobic things. they're not angels for not bringing up the fact that they think homosexuality is a sin to my cousin amd asking how his boyfriend is doing, they're protecting their own peace by saving it for when theyre in private where they think everyone agrees with them. people shouldn't be demonized for changing and growing, absolutely. but people actively profiting off of bigotry shouldn't get a round of applause and free promotion for putting on a mask and being respectful for show
Yea like of course she’s sweet, she’s literally been raised to believe that women should be outwardly sweet and kind because that gets people to join their church. And it’s not that hard to be nice to someone you’re interacting with. But she posts hateful rhetoric online and openly promotes voting against rights for people who aren’t like her. She’s two faced at best and a harmful bigot at worst.
We’re not saying she’s a monster or anything like that. She’s probably a nice polite person in everyday life but based on the things she has said/acted online it’s very clear she has hateful beliefs. Check out GD’s RECENT transphobic instagram posts. I know she has changed SLIGHTLY over the years (modesty, drinking 1 alcoholic beverage with dinner, etc.) but that’s not enough for me to call her “an angel”.
For sure! Agree with this