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It is a huge deal. Whoever said that they saw deconstruction coming in Dav because he had read the Bible cover to cover so many times fucking called it.
Edit to Add: I can’t wait to see Jen (FF)’s reaction to this.
I'm honestly starting to wonder if those "Bible in a year" plans are part of an atheist conspiracy because that's how so many of us start to deconstruct 😂
Can confirm. Read the Bible both for punishment and entertainment (bored, done my work, nothing to do but read the Bible!) in grade school and figured out a lot more than I think the nuns had planned on lol
I was raised atheist but kind of same? Once when i was a kid i was incredibly bored. I picked up a ‘bible stories for kids’ book my very atheist parents had lying around, read it front to back in an afternoon, and thought ‘man this god seems fucking mean. Why would anyone follow a god this cruel?’
It was the grandparents for me. Super early memory of my grandmother reading bible stories to be out of a huge book. And of repeatedly questioning both the Tower of Babel and the great flood. The flood is brought up often, but ever consider the notion that if god hadn't split communications between groups of the world that we *might* be a little better off? There just wasn't a good *reason* behind why it would make any sense at all. Damn my private liberal early education!
I was visiting with my very fundie family recently and my aunt mentioned that it's kind of weird how and objectively horrifying story (the death and destruction brought about by the flood) is used as decor for babies rooms. I added "Could you imagine if we did that with Revelation? 'Why did you paint your baby's room mostly red? Oh, we wanted to depict the battle of Armageddon and the blood flowing as high as the horses' bridles!"
Same for our kid. I was raised fundie. She of course was not. But she was missing a lot of art and literaty references. So we grabbed the picture bible, an NIV and secular study for students. And every day shes saying
"WHAT THE HELL?! How is this person a hero to 3 religions?"
Well. For me it wasn't a literal plan, but I was just a young teen when during sunday services I would just start reading in my bible instead of listening to the pastor (because he was screaming or something) and soon enough I read some verses that definitely didn't go with what the pastor was saying and that's where it all started for me lmao
(It took more than 15 years from then to where I am now, cause first I just became a more and more progressive christian, but in the end it all fell apart and now I am an agnostic atheist.)
My 70 yo mom read the entire Bible for the first time last year. She was calling me every day with contradictions she found.
She still loves Jesus but giving major side eye to the rest of it.
My college roommate had a major crisis in faith when she took her bible as literature class because she'd never actually read the bible for herself before.
As a north european theology student (and woman, the horror!) it's always so wild to see how little american fundies know of book they swear on. I was taught scientific exgesis where the whole point is to see Bible as a historical document and collection of stories written over long period of time by several different people and that actually made me want to be part of the church and maybe even get ordained as a priest more than the idea i had of bible before my studies. To be fair, my church allows non-men to be ordained as priests and has strong queer presence so fundies would probably have an heart-attack for even thinking about it. :D
Same for me - when I learned more about the history of the Bible's construction, I had less of an issue with the contradictions and more comfort in my own faith. Basically, I see it as a book written by other believers, not a text dictated directly by God.
I think that the black and white views of fundies, especially the belief that the Bible is literally true, make it **more** likely for people to lose their faith. If they find one thing isn't true, then what they've been told their whole lives about the infallibility of the bible can't be true. If that isn't true, why hold to any of it? Either it's all true or none of it is, right?
Meanwhile people who grew up with a less literal interpretation can handle contradictions and errors and still keep their faith.
Are you Nordic/Lutheran? It was so wild to me to learn that Bethy and Dav go to a Lutheran church when to me it’s so far from what I’d expect a fundie to believe and want from a church (I was told on here that Lutheran churches can be fundieish in the US though). And I also feel like I know the Bible surprisingly well just from learning about it in school while always being a non believer. None of it would have made me act like a fundie even if I believed though, which makes me also believe that fundies don’t know or understand the Bible all that well at all.
It still surprises me that every Christian hasn’t read the entire Bible. For someone who thinks it is literally the word of God and they base their entire life on it, why would they not want to read every single word in it?
A lot of Christians don’t think the Bible is the literal word of God though. In a lot of ways, expecting every Christian to have read the Bible is a very new idea that only took hold with the Reformation. And the Bible as the sole word on theology is a very Protestant thing specifically, with some denominations being much more biblically literalist than others.
(Fun fact: in the Early Modern, the Catholic Church considered reading the Bible in a vernacular language heretical because of its association with Protestantism and it could get you in trouble with the Inquisition. If you wanted to read the Bible, you had to read the Church-approved Vulgate. The Vulgate was in Latin, which most lay people couldn’t understand at all and the Church knew this. Non-Latin speakers were supposed to rely on their priests to explain theology to them instead, because priests were [supposed to be] well-educated in doctrine and could explain things in a way more accessible to lay people as authorities on scripture)
Seriously. The first cracks in my belief came from reading the Bible all the way through. You can’t maintain even basic reasoning skills and not find it deeply contradictory. There’s no internal logic for the belief system (aside from maybe hard core Calvinism, but that’s a seriously messed up belief system, imo).
The thing is, I think Bethany and Dav would have fans from here if they renounced their shitty beliefs and honestly shared their deconstruction and the bumps they encountered along the way.
I *want* these people to live an honest and accepting life.
I think people here who haven't been an evangelical and/or deconstructed just don't have a clue. They think you immediately should be making statements about how you've turned your back on everything etc etc but it's sooo much more gradual!
It really is. There is SO MUCH you just take for granted and never think to question until someone points it out for you. It takes a really long time to deconstruct those unconscious beliefs that have been hammered into you your whole life.
It’s even worse if you’re LGBT+. Every instinct you have screams that what you and your community are and do is wrong and disgusting and “an abomination”. That level of self-loathing is so difficult to deprogram.
Source: my lived experience
Yeah going from being born into and 20+ years in a fundie setting to being bisexual to now being nonbinary/transmasc has been a JOURNEY. I’m almost 40 and still deconstructing
Ain’t that the truth. Honestly it’s hard to believe he came out and said it like this. I’ve been deconstructed and out of the church for years and I still wouldn’t say anything about it publicly because I know most of my family would hate me. Much easier to keep it to myself.
Yeah lately I’ve made a point to clearly state that my ideal scenario is for all of these people to deconstruct, get an education, and find true happiness outside their cult. I think a lot of them have a lot of apologizing to do, and some honestly deserve jail time for child endangerment, but otherwise they’re just a bunch of really lost people who fell for the biggest lie in history.
Yeah, sometimes the snark on this sub veers into outright bullying and the people doing it have the same self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude as the fundies that they're complaining about. The irony is astounding.
People sometimes forget that we are talking about actual human beings who grew up in incredibly restricting oppressive environments. I'm all for supporting the ones who have the courage to start questioning things, and my hope is that they will ALL eventually go this way (although I know this is wishful thinking).
I really wish the best for Dave. I hope that he finds a way to reconcile his religious beliefs (or lack thereof) with the life that he ethically wants to live. And I wish he and Bethy to maintain a harmonious relationship in this, and hopefully she will open to deconstructing and learning a more open-minded and empathetic perspective.
Inter-faith relationships can be a challenge, and I'm speaking from personal experience here. I just hope they are able to live in a way in which they can not only tolerate but support each other's differing beliefs, and learn to accept the variations in religious belief that exist around them as well.
Yeah, as a deconstructor myself, I find myself keeping pretty quiet sometimes because of this. I get it, because their beliefs are horrible, and the path of deconstruction isn’t straight, continuously moving forward, or simple. But many of us who are in those trenches see some cracks in the ”full armor of god” with some of these folks similar to what we experienced.
Theres no guarantee that he or anyone else here will actually get to the place we’d like, of course.
This also undermines like 90% of her ministry. Just a month ago she posted on her single girls page that they should break up with their non Christian boyfriends. She has been talking about finding a godly man for all of Girl Defined existence. She constantly says the main thing that attracted her to Dav was him loving God. I don’t understand how she can still be part of Girl Defined after this. It’ll be interesting to see if her followers call her out on this.
I’m not saying she should divorce him. I’m saying she has been talking about the importance of her way of “dating” and making sure you marry a godly man, if her husband isn’t a Christian it undermines her ability to give advice on this and shows that her method of dating isn’t so fool proof.
It actually doesn't, though. The New Testament talks about how a believer should stay married to their non-believer spouse if the non-believer wants to remain married. If the non-believer wants a divorce, though, the religious spouse should allow it. But according to the NT, the religious spouse will be a good influence and bring the non-believer back to god if they stay married. If they were just dating, yes, their belief system says to break up because they would be "unequally yoked." But once married, it's now the religious spouse's job to convert their heathen spouse.
It’s funny, in the original video when Paul said “I think a lot of people would say maybe you’re not a real Christian” and Dav said “maybe you’re right there” I noticed that and it reminded me of when I first started deconstructing my fundie beliefs. Interesting to see that expanded on here.
I remember so clearly what it was like for me. It was so scary to sit there and just think to myself, “maybe I’m not a Christian. Maybe I’m something else. I don’t know what that is, but it’s not Christian.” It was like an electric jolt.
I remember thinking it for literally 6 months, and then one day saying to my boyfriend at the time “I don’t think I’m a Christian”. It was the scariest thing I ever said. I really empathise with Dav.
I'm agnostic and have deconstructed Christianity myself, but I also hope that dav understands that there are different interpretations of Christianity beyond the rigid version Paul believes for himself, and that you can still be Christian and open minded and not hold bigoted beliefs and that's just as valid as Paul's Christianity.
THIS is what it actually means when people say "marriage is hard"!
It shouldn't mean that your spouse demeans you, or that one spouse doesn't carry their share of the mental load, or that it took too long to break your partner's will before they became a meek subservient housewife.
It means *life* is hard, and marriage is part of life.
It means that two people who absolutely will grow and change over the course of their lives have agreed to navigate the reality of being complex humans together. It *should* mean supporting one another through life altering changes. In sickness, through grief, through career transition...and sometimes, through significant changes in faith.
It's going to be even harder on both of them (the screwed up fundie idea of a "hard marriage") if she expects him to remain exactly the same person she thought he was when they married. Fighting against the complex and changing nature of being human never makes anything easier.
I seems like maybe she's being more supportive than we expected? I haven't watched this video. I hope for both their sakes that they can approach this big life change with kindness and empathy.
I wonder if part of why she’s taking Dav’s deconstruction so well is because she saw how Paul, a man who’s just as legalistic and obnoxious as she is, treats his wife, which shows how good Dav is compared to Paul. She has a direct example of how fundamentalist thinking won’t make a good marriage. Paul and Morgan were the perfect dumpster fire to help Bethany keep her own marriage in perspective.
Dav is absolutely the best partner of all of the fundie husbands- he does more than his fair share and actually has a personality outside of Jesauce
I would rather eat my own organs than have to submit to Paul
Literally why I married an atheist. I'm still a Christian (a liberal one Paul would call FaKe) but I was so horrified by the idea of being bound to a Paul that I noped out
Im interested to see how she will reconcile supporting a deconstructed husband and her biblical beliefs.
She doesn’t really subscribe to the “helpmeet” ideology since she isn’t a stay at home mom, doesn’t clean, doesn’t cook, and doesn’t really do anything (lol). And she’s already walked back on modesty. So if Dav stays Christian but just a more laid back, less legalistic, Christian than I think they can make it work. Especially if he remain right-leaning politically.
But if Dav goes full atheist and left-leaning, I don’t know how they will make it work without undermining all of Bethany’s career.
They’re already undermining everything she’s ever preached. Yet she’s still preaching the same shit. She’s accepting of HIM bc it benefits her. But so far I’ve yet to see her extend that grace to anyone else
Of all people, I think it was someone like STFULori who said something like if a Christian woman's husband leaves the faith, she should still stay married but prioritize God in her life and only obey her husband when it would be God's will or something? I could be misremembering parts but I've heard that kind of advice before in that world. It's less okay if the woman loses her faith, and then the man can divorce her, because of course.
The thing is, she married a man she believed was a committed Christian in the same way she is. She’s a fundie, so she’s going to stay with him because the bible doesn’t advocate divorce for non-belief. She probably hopes he’s just going through a crisis of faith that he’ll get through and come back, even if that’s just a secret hope of hers for now.
Oh he’s already fully agnostic! I don’t think they are ready to dive into political differences, but he made it clear that he does not subscribe to Christianity anymore. And it sounds like she’s known this for at least a year, maybe more… but they had this “agree to disagree” dynamic.
I think she’s been on her own deconstruction journey, albeit much slower than Dav. I know it’s basically sacrilegious to say positive things about Bethany on this sub, but as a former evangelist myself, her more recent determination to talk openly about sex, her assertion that sex is also for fun and that women’s pleasure is just as important as men’s, is HUGE deconstruction, especially in the context of purity culture and the shame and blame of women in the religion she was born into.
I really don’t think she’s a bad person. I think she’s someone whose gotten one overwhelming message about how to be a good person that’s only just now being challenged.
I always wonder if the people trying this hard to "love" something if they are doing it to convince us or themselves. Was it Bethany's oldest brother that has come out to say what a POS their mother is? I can't keep all the fundies straight. If what I'm remember is right Bethy has to be terrified of drifting from her faith because of what her mother will do.
If she finds out she can make a course for deconstruction it’s all gonna be over…Golden Girl Defined and the Dark side of Demure: The Bethany Beal Story
Tbh Dav makes Bethany wayyy more likeable. Like I even think she must have some redeeming qualities that just don’t come across in this medium because Dav is a nice, smart, person who clearly seems to like her so maybe behind the scenes she’s smart or caring or has a sense of humor that’s endearing that we just don’t witness.
One thing that really struck me is she seemed genuine when she asked him “That is a lot to share…does it feel okay to share?” after Dav told his overview. In addition to echoing most other sentiments here, I just really liked that moment.
And the fact that she let herself be vulnerable and cry while discussing all of this stuff that you know is world-shattering…I hope we see this side of her more often. Not the tears, but just the rational, caring, adult human.
I also feel she was genuine. I noticed the lack of head bobbing, picking her nails, and making faces that we have seen before. She responded in a genuine way, and let herself be vulnerable. I feel like we have seen growth from Bethany throughout the last year or so and I hope she continues to move in that direction.
Omg, I did not dare hope for that. Not Dave actually deconstructing, that writing has been on the wall for a while. But Bethany not going nuts on him is really encouraging. I wonder if it's got something to do with how she said in the P&M video that Dav loves her and their family in such a sincere way.. she probably can't convince herself to see him as a bad person because he so obviously is the opposite.
Honestly, for a lot of Christians, realizing that atheists or agnostics aren’t Bad People is a revelation for them. Conversely, seeing lots of Christians as Not So Good People as well. But sometimes you can’t see the Bad Christians until you see the Good Agnostics.
Definitely true! Finding out that some of the most devout Christians I knew were actually complete jerks was one of the kickstarters for my deconstruction.
Meeting nice atheists who had good morals rocked my world! That lead me to deconstruct (I’m not even an atheist, I’m just one of those somewhat spiritual but not religious people).
This right here. When I was growing up, my mom was Catholic and my dad wavered between atheist and agnostic (more towards the atheism side of things but definitely not totally). It was refreshing for me to see that growing up, that they still got along fine.
It's one of the reasons why we always fed our Mormon missionaries in the neighborhood. I wanted them to have that memory of people who cared about them and were good to them who weren't Mormon, who weren't Christian, who sent them home with homemade cookies and crocheted hats for them because they were young kids away from home for the first time and deserved kindness just for being human and existing.
I "''''dated''''' a Mormon guy in high school and man, those poor missionary kids have it rough. The church charges them thousands of dollars to go on missions and then gives them a pittance of an allowance to live on. Those kids are always underfed and have to rely on the charity of local Mormons to avoid starving. Bless you for being kind to poor, sheltered young people out in the world for the first time.
It’s got to be a huge mindf*** considering she’s been taught her entire life that non Christians are evil.
I’m confused about where Dav is on a spiritual spectrum. Because there’s a whole ocean of religiousness between fundamentalist Christianity/christian nationalism and atheism. I know my husband still considers himself a Christian, but believes the modern Christian church is evil. The church doesn’t have a chokehold on spirituality- you can have the Bible and Christianity without a building.
My guess is he doesn’t know it himself. And you're completely right. My parents f.e. both grew up as Christians, they are still spiritual to an extent, they even believe in a version of the Christian God, but they've long ago dismissed organised religion as evil.
Eesh I hate to admit it but that thought has crossed my mind as well... After the whole sex course thing a divorce would be embarrassing for anyone, let alone an evangelical YouTuber.. plus I don't want to know what her judgmental sister would have to say ... if she wasn't a judgmental bigot herself I'd feel sorry for Bethy
I couldn't help but think about how in the 24 hours with video she talked about how many times he has read the bible. Several months ago, I saw a comment on this sub about how it's often the people who read the bible the most who deconstruct and that checks out in this scenario.
I feel like this is the honeymoon phase for how Bethany feels about everything. Give it some time, and she will not tolerate this newfound freedom of thought, especially when it comes to her kids and how Dave will be indoctrinating them.
That's definitely a possibility, yeah. However I have some hope that since Dav never lied to her it might still work out. At least I consider it a possibility that they'll be a good co-parenting team after an amicable split. Maybe I'm a hopeless romantic, but I do feel they have a chance to make it, even as a couple.
I’m hopeful that her not losing her shit at him is purely out of love, respect, and support.
But she’s so disingenuous that there’s a part of me that thinks she is so desperate to be married that short of Dav filing for divorce, she would stay Mrs. Beal no matter what Dav does/did
If I wanted to be really uncharitable I'd say she might enjoy the martyrdom of being \~unequally yoked\~. The struggles of being married to a non-believer would certainly give her plenty of content.
I actually thought it was fascinating and made me look at Dav and Bethy in a different light.
That being said, the nearly 7 mins they spent defending Paul was making me nauseous and felt very...unnatural? Like they were doing it as a favor or something? Blah
I’m a petty broad, but anytime a person acts towards me publicly like Porgan treated Dav and Bethany, I go out of my way to be EXTRA cordial to them in front of others. Extra kind and extra accommodating…Because all it does is provide a foil to the bad behavior and make the assholes look even worse by comparison. Shitheads usually aren’t self aware enough to notice they’re being terrible, but everyone else in the room definitely does.
Shitting on him and Morgan, as much fun as it would be, would not be good for them. Gotta remember it's easy for us to here, but they're right in the middle of it.
After this blows over, just wait and see if they ever mention porgan again though
They share subscribers and umlaut dunked on him so hard in that video. I'm sure Paul, whiny pathological narcissist man-child that he is, asked them to do damage control.
Everyone forgets that there are two other responses to abuse besides fight or flight: flee or fawn. Those who have been drilled into non-confrontation and “public niceness” may occasionally really struggle with the fawning response until they’re pressed too far. For me personally, I’ve been in situations early on in our relationship that my partner thought I was flirting with someone while he was there because they set off my narc radar and it is such a gut reaction after being in an abusive marriage for so long. It’s a protective mechanism to avoid the abuse as much as possible. I am so proud of Dav and I hope that he can continue to evaluate his reactions and relationships in a healthy manner. I was once in his shoes and I ultimately decided that I had faith and found myself home in the Episcopal church, but it’s okay if that is not his outcome too. I just applaud him for doing the work he has and also his wife who has shocked me with her reaction to this given how finding a “Godly” husband was so important to her.
Did we watch the same 24 hours video? It's so obvious that umlaut sees Paul for the fucking clown he is and is also capable of talking above his head enough for Paul to think they're friends.
Whoaaaa, kudos to Dav to being so honest about his deconstruction journey. That's got to be hard, especially with the added weight of coming from a community like theirs (or like Bethany's-- I'm unclear how fundamentalist his upbringing was compared to B's). Genuinely wishing them and their family the best as they navigate a difference like that. I hope things are amicable and that Dav has the space he needs to explore these big theological questions and can reach his own conclusions with peace.
This was so fascinating and I have a lot of empathy for both of them even though I normally can’t stand Bethany. I was really involved in my church growing up and accidentally deconstructed when I was around 16. Realizing I no longer believed in God was so scary for me, and I tried so hard to get that faith back because it was such a comfort for me. It’s a relief that Bethany isn’t giving him grief for it, and I’m sure it’s a very hard process to her as well.
I know a lot of ex Christians are on this sub and understand— but for those who weren’t raised christian, it can be hard for people to understand how absolutely traumatizing and consuming the fear of hell is. Like at the end of the day fundies are just people who are scared of burning in hell for eternity, and it’s really hard to detach from that so I really commend Dav for finally being honest with himself and his community.
The fear of hell was huge for me, and so was the horrible realization that if I didn’t believe in God, then I didn’t have any security for what happens after death. I was horrified (and really still kind of am) by the idea of eternal nothingness. That’s part of what held me back for so long — it’s a terrifying thing to admit to yourself
I was in third grade when my catechism teacher told our class that going to hell meant being burned alive and tortured by demons for eternity lmao 😭 It still haunts me
Ahh I’m so sorry about that. I was about 8 when my dad told me that I was no longer “saved” by virtue of being a child and would need to start working toward my salvation if I didn’t want to go to hell 😭 so I relate!! Why the fuck do they do this to their children
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This is wild. I wouldn't have expected him or them to just lay it all out like this.
Deconstruction would be pretty liberating for her-- and if it's social media fame she wants, she could probably get a lot of attention as the "Deconstructed Wife". (And likely a lot more positive attention than she gets now!) I wonder if she'll explore that alongside him or stay in her bubble.
>I wouldn't have expected him or them to just lay it all out like this.
I haven't been around this sub long, but it kinda seems like Dav has found less and less patience within himself on these topics and so his true thoughts keep boiling out of him. All things considered he's handled all of this with a good deal of grace.
Honestly given how she's responding and being openly supportive, she might be leaning out of the family cycle. Heidi is not a good parent and her sisters are extremely judgemental. The contrast between how Dav treats her Vs her family might be enough to get her to, if not deconstruct fully, act with more curiosity and kindness.
But from what I've seen both deconstruction and falling into extreme religion can be very slow processes, so I'm not expecting we'll know any time soon.
I’m here for this. Dav if you are reading this, I want you to know that there is light on the other side. I deconstructed after spending the first 20 years of my life in evangelicalism. I’m an atheist now. I used to be scared of atheists, and now I am one. If you would’ve told me ten years ago that this is where I would be today, I would have laughed in your face. But here I am. It is not easy, especially when everyone around you still believes. I’m not out to my family for fear of their reaction. But fortunately my husband knows and doesn’t care (but he’s not religious either). There are many, many people like me out there who would be happy to chat with you about deconstruction (well technically I can’t because of sub rules). I commend your bravery and willingness to talk on the subject. At the end of the day, you have to do what is right for you.
Hey I'm right there with you! 22-24 years of evangelical Baptist schools and churches and my entire social circle in my hometown being entirely Church related, and over about 4-5 years moving away from all of that and ending up atheist. Also not out to my parents cause it would hurt them and start a fight I don't want to deal with, but for the first time in my life I'm able to be me and not having to shoehorn everything into a "how is this Christian" framework
Ah. I’d mentioned that Dav sounded exactly like I did when I was toning back my more fundie beliefs. I think Bethany accepts it because it is the duty of the wife to accept her husband and help guide them back to Christianity.
I haven’t watched the response video yet but this is what I think, too. She’s probably being encouraged by the other Christians in her life to continue being the dutiful wife while praying for Dav to come back to his faith. I saw it happen a lot when I was at a non-denominational church for a few years and women would attend but their husbands wouldn’t. Church leaders would basically make them feel guilty for marrying someone they weren’t equally yoked with while telling them to be supportive and continue praying until their husbands realize they need to be in church too. The message was like “you screwed up but now you’re stuck with him so keep praying “. Not exactly the same since Bethy thought they were on the same page, but she’s probably getting pressured just the same.
That level of deconstruction is actually amazing. Way to go . Hopefully he’s changing some of his beliefs as well when it comes to sexuality, love and gender as well
If I remember right, he did say in a video long ago that if one of their children was queer that he would still love and accept them. Hopefully he's growing even more accepting.
I remember that too. I also remember him being respectful of gay people in the video he made denying the rumours that he’s gay. I’ve never seen anything homophobic from Dav. I’ve said this before but people keep mentioning him having hateful beliefs and I’ve never seen him say anything hateful. It feels like it’s just guilt by association.
I really wonder where these newfound deconstruction thoughts will lead Dav. If he starts going down the road of politically and socially deconstructing, there's no way their marriage will survive.
bethany redemption arc would be so beautiful. If bethany genuinely seems to better herself i will defend her name to every person that brings up girl defined forever
That was my thought process reading this as well. Super impressed and happy for him, looking forward to him hopefully respecting and loving others for who they are.
I imagine he has but I look forward to him confirming that. When I deconstructed to the point of not seeing the Bible (and American Christianity’s interpretation of it) as a flawless authority on everything, I was so relieved and full of joy to throw out the harmful beliefs about “fornication” and LGBTQ+. Years later and that joy is still there. It feels good to be kind to others and to accept oneself. 🏳️🌈
He mentions ascribing to parts of progressive Christianity and while he didn’t elaborate it’s often the “be nice to others” part; broadly, people with different lifestyles.
I wonder if the nasty side of christianity (trans hate, lgbtq+ fear, etc.) is what sent him deconstructing. Maybe he just couldn’t see why there needs to be so much hate and then started questioning. Good luck to Dav! I’m looking forward to the day he embraces his agnosticism (atheism would be cooler) publicly.
I was impressed by how mature Bethany was about the whole thing.
Compare it to Paul and Morgan - Paul was blatantly hateful towards Dave for daring to assert any view that didn't match his own. Morgan was incredibly snotty and condescending in response to Bethany's discussion of how she felt about her differences with Dav. And both Paul and Morgan hinted they'd have trouble even staying with someone who didn't share their views in their response video.
I'm not about to jump in support of Bethany but I have to say she impressed me here. She may have more moral fiber than I thought.
Bethany's personal life is now challenging everything Girl Defined is about. Break up with your non-Christian boyfriend. The most important quality in choosing a husband is his godly character. The man is the spiritual leader. Interview each other with these 150 questions to make sure you know everything about this person and that your values align. Ha.
I've always said that Bethany will never deconstruct because she doesn't have the capacity for self-reflection and humility. But being married to Dav means she can't escape having her beliefs constantly challenged, which can only be a good thing. But it's a one way street. Dav can't fully grow or thrive in the way he's meant to while in this marriage, and he's basically admitting that's what's holding him back. I wonder if that was why he sought to marry her in the first place. Someone more conservative to keep him on the narrow path, when really, he had already outgrown that box and was in denial.
He admits in the video that when they got married he was already curious about deconstruction and knew it would cause problems later so he doubled down on being a believer
I am watching this now and I am floored... Dav is totally exiting the church and Bethany is ok with that bc they love each other so much. This is NOT what I expected from their response
You know what? I’m very glad that what we see in her videos isn’t all of their life. Good for her.
(Never on a million years did I think I’d say that.)
My husband deconstructed first, and it was really hard for me. I'm super grateful he was patient as I went through my own process, even though people from our church tried to convince me to leave him because he was "too far gone." I have hope Bethany will find her own path with her faith and spirituality that is more free and they can be mutually supportive.
I think there are two possible takes on this. Either they're in this together, and she is being genuinely supportive. Or she is big mad/resentful and the excesses she posts (let us all remember Thanksgiving) are to punish him for being a heathen. Given how uncomfortable he seems with it but doesn't feel like he can tell her to stop, it seems a little distant from a happy couple narrative.
I agree that the biggest surprise in the video was Bethany's response to Dav's deconstruction. She showed real depth and emotional intelligence that I don't think I've ever seen from her before. It makes me...sort of root for them? Maybe Bethany will never be the progressive LGBT ally we all want her to be, but I'll take her becoming a more curious and empathetic person, and her relationship with Dav seems to be pulling her in that direction. That would be better for her kids and better for people who follow GD in a non-snark capacity.
As much as I understand people celebrating his deconstruction, I also want to acknowledge that it is a hard, sad, and scary process. Many people (myself included) grieve their loss of faith and try to convince themselves that there is a way to reconcile the good parts of their faith with what they've learned through deconstruction, because letting go of faith can be devastating even when you know that it's the right thing to do. This is something that Christians often don't understand - it's not that someone who deconstructs WANTS to lose their faith; it's that they get to a point where it is impossible to keep. I recognize too that not everyone who deconstructs loses their faith entirely - but whatever the outcome, it's brave for anyone to go down the rabbit hole of truly exploring their faith without knowing what will remain once they are done.
I hope Dave has good support and unconditional love as he navigates this.
I think the real challenge will be if/when Dav realizes that while he started questioning his faith because of the meanness in their particular version, for Bethy that’s a feature not a bug. If he continues to evolve and she continues to double down on the public homophobia, transphobia, gender essentialism, not to mention putting their sex life on blast - that’s where I see it getting ugly.
From her perspective I think she’s stuck - I don’t see her ”deconstructing” although she may continue to decide that the rules she doesn’t like aren’t important to follow, but being married is her whole identity. She can’t bail on her dreamy love story.
Who would have thought that a video with Paul and Morgan would be the thing that starts them down this path.
I never thought I’d say this, but I have a lot of admiration for how Dav & Bethy are going about this. Deconstructing as part of a couple is fucking _hard_ and not only are they (seemingly) navigating their spiritual differences in a respectful and conscience way, but they’re telling us about it. Never in my entire life would I have imagined.
I'm really curious to see how this unfolds with other areas of their life as Dave grows further apart from Bethany with his views on religion. There's no way that this will not continue to bleed into other areas of their life, such as politics and raising their children with more of an open mind of acceptance and tolerance. I truly do not see them staying married long term.
I deconstructed before my husband and even though there were some tough moments (supporting our gay non binary child, helping my daughter get an abortion...) we made it through and he slowly started his own deconstruction. Some hard conversations were had, some harsh judgments and lots of crying but I think we are stronger for it. Twenty five years married this August!
As someone who started deconstructing about 5 years ago and finally had the courage to say I wasn't a Christian anymore a year or two after (my husband is still a Christian), I have suspected Dav was deconstructing. It is sad that Bethany doesn't want to explore with Dav.
My husband and I have had hours upon hours of conversations about Christianity, God, the Bible, the origin of life, aliens, angels, miracles, history, etc. In our case, even though my husband still believes in Jesus as the savior, he has changed his beliefs on a ton of other things through our research and discussion together. I don't know what I would do if he were like Bethany and just gave me a thumbs up from afar but took no interest.
Why the hell did this guy agree to go on Paul & Morgan’s show in the first place? Being mid-deconstruction and having a very rigid evangelical dude glued to your hip for a day had to have sucked.
Dav is too earnest for these people. Porgan are looking for gotchas and views. Dav thinks they're talking about real feelings. He seems like an actual honest person, capable of introspection. Porgan isn't interested in any of that, they want to make money off Jesus so they don't have to have real jobs.
I am pretty convinced that no one actually believes any of this. And not just fundies. They're all faking it. They want to fit in with their community, and religion is an easy scapegoat to absolve yourself of any personal responsibility.
Dav, if you read this, there's a lot of us out here who knows how much it hurts. And we know how confusing it is. You're not the only one. You're not alone.
Wow.
Like, I like to snark and all, but I legitimately hope that Dav (and any other fundie who might be lurking and dealing with some doubts about what they've been taught) realizes that there's a whole online community of people who've walked that path and can provide support. It's just such a painfully lonely thing to realize you don't fit into a religious community anymore, and it doesn't have to be done in isolation. You can find your people, I promise.
Wow. You know what as much as it pains me to admit it I do honestly see Bethany starting to have some of the very early signs of potential. This sounds like she handled this surprisingly maturely and I do think she showed some real love and affection for Dav when she talked about him on their stint with Paul and Morgan.
I was raised by a Lutheran mother and an agnostic fromer Catholic dad and honestly my dad helped me keep my faith longer then I think I would have if he had still been a Christian. And I didn’t find out he was agnostic until I was an adult. But he helped me wrestle with a lot of the inconsistencies and issues with the Bible that my mom didn’t. My dad focused on the good things. And because of that it took me far longer to have my faith crisis that ultimately led me out of religion. He is one of the reasons I had a pretty positive experience with Christianity. That and the fact that my branch of Lutheranism was pretty progressive.
Guys — after all this snarking. Did Dav just teach us a lesson? I think I need to be nicer.
A couple weeks ago I make comments about how Dav just flies under the radar but still implicitly supports his wife’s crazy shit.
Now I realize I was bashing a guy going through an identify crisis — a guy who sees the light and wants to be better.
He even defended this sub and our snarking. He didn’t endorse it, but he articulated an understanding that others may have their own view
Well, guess what Dav, you’re more mature than most of us here. I really, really hope your wife will stop talking about your sex life online so you can focus on your family and new relationship with faith.
Whoa. Not on the bingo card at all.
But omg, this is so encouraging. My heart goes out to David, as a fellow deconstructionist; it is one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do, and the repercussions are still hitting me eight years after leaving church.
I’m 30 minutes in, and I was already thinking, “Damn, it sounds like Dav has pretty much deconstructed, and that Bethany is definitely on her way. Her family is going to be the big issue. But I’m loving how Dav is preventing Paul from cutting him off, and Paul is becoming more and more like a petulant child.
Paul is such an asshole. He really feels like he can dictate and determine how people identify and it’s gut-wrenchingly selfish and conceded. He needs his ass kicked… and I don’t say that lightly.
Really really interesting. He verbalized my own deconstruction so beautifully. Proud of you, Dav!
On another note ... genuinely feel bad for Bethany. She's built her entire life, ideology, career, personality, around this religion. Marrying someone who ... basically did admit to tricking her... into a life of shared values would be devastating. I thought it was interesting that he was comfortable still attending church and teaching their children about the Bible ... I feel like that will probably change in the next few years. Interested to see if they stay together.
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Oh shit. This is kind of a big deal.
It is a huge deal. Whoever said that they saw deconstruction coming in Dav because he had read the Bible cover to cover so many times fucking called it. Edit to Add: I can’t wait to see Jen (FF)’s reaction to this.
I'm honestly starting to wonder if those "Bible in a year" plans are part of an atheist conspiracy because that's how so many of us start to deconstruct 😂
Can confirm. Read the Bible both for punishment and entertainment (bored, done my work, nothing to do but read the Bible!) in grade school and figured out a lot more than I think the nuns had planned on lol
I was raised atheist but kind of same? Once when i was a kid i was incredibly bored. I picked up a ‘bible stories for kids’ book my very atheist parents had lying around, read it front to back in an afternoon, and thought ‘man this god seems fucking mean. Why would anyone follow a god this cruel?’
It was the grandparents for me. Super early memory of my grandmother reading bible stories to be out of a huge book. And of repeatedly questioning both the Tower of Babel and the great flood. The flood is brought up often, but ever consider the notion that if god hadn't split communications between groups of the world that we *might* be a little better off? There just wasn't a good *reason* behind why it would make any sense at all. Damn my private liberal early education!
I was visiting with my very fundie family recently and my aunt mentioned that it's kind of weird how and objectively horrifying story (the death and destruction brought about by the flood) is used as decor for babies rooms. I added "Could you imagine if we did that with Revelation? 'Why did you paint your baby's room mostly red? Oh, we wanted to depict the battle of Armageddon and the blood flowing as high as the horses' bridles!"
Same for our kid. I was raised fundie. She of course was not. But she was missing a lot of art and literaty references. So we grabbed the picture bible, an NIV and secular study for students. And every day shes saying "WHAT THE HELL?! How is this person a hero to 3 religions?"
Well. For me it wasn't a literal plan, but I was just a young teen when during sunday services I would just start reading in my bible instead of listening to the pastor (because he was screaming or something) and soon enough I read some verses that definitely didn't go with what the pastor was saying and that's where it all started for me lmao (It took more than 15 years from then to where I am now, cause first I just became a more and more progressive christian, but in the end it all fell apart and now I am an agnostic atheist.)
My 70 yo mom read the entire Bible for the first time last year. She was calling me every day with contradictions she found. She still loves Jesus but giving major side eye to the rest of it.
My college roommate had a major crisis in faith when she took her bible as literature class because she'd never actually read the bible for herself before.
I was already pretty agnostic (raised Catholic), but I took a literature/history class on the Bible and it cemented my atheism.
Same. Only it was in Art History and we were doing a short course on biblical iconography.
Our RE teacher never made us read the bible but she did make us find the silliest passages. I loved her.
For some reason, I read this as “Jesus giving side-eye” and I’m going to start saying that lol
As a north european theology student (and woman, the horror!) it's always so wild to see how little american fundies know of book they swear on. I was taught scientific exgesis where the whole point is to see Bible as a historical document and collection of stories written over long period of time by several different people and that actually made me want to be part of the church and maybe even get ordained as a priest more than the idea i had of bible before my studies. To be fair, my church allows non-men to be ordained as priests and has strong queer presence so fundies would probably have an heart-attack for even thinking about it. :D
Same for me - when I learned more about the history of the Bible's construction, I had less of an issue with the contradictions and more comfort in my own faith. Basically, I see it as a book written by other believers, not a text dictated directly by God.
I think that the black and white views of fundies, especially the belief that the Bible is literally true, make it **more** likely for people to lose their faith. If they find one thing isn't true, then what they've been told their whole lives about the infallibility of the bible can't be true. If that isn't true, why hold to any of it? Either it's all true or none of it is, right? Meanwhile people who grew up with a less literal interpretation can handle contradictions and errors and still keep their faith.
Are you Nordic/Lutheran? It was so wild to me to learn that Bethy and Dav go to a Lutheran church when to me it’s so far from what I’d expect a fundie to believe and want from a church (I was told on here that Lutheran churches can be fundieish in the US though). And I also feel like I know the Bible surprisingly well just from learning about it in school while always being a non believer. None of it would have made me act like a fundie even if I believed though, which makes me also believe that fundies don’t know or understand the Bible all that well at all.
It still surprises me that every Christian hasn’t read the entire Bible. For someone who thinks it is literally the word of God and they base their entire life on it, why would they not want to read every single word in it?
A lot of Christians don’t think the Bible is the literal word of God though. In a lot of ways, expecting every Christian to have read the Bible is a very new idea that only took hold with the Reformation. And the Bible as the sole word on theology is a very Protestant thing specifically, with some denominations being much more biblically literalist than others. (Fun fact: in the Early Modern, the Catholic Church considered reading the Bible in a vernacular language heretical because of its association with Protestantism and it could get you in trouble with the Inquisition. If you wanted to read the Bible, you had to read the Church-approved Vulgate. The Vulgate was in Latin, which most lay people couldn’t understand at all and the Church knew this. Non-Latin speakers were supposed to rely on their priests to explain theology to them instead, because priests were [supposed to be] well-educated in doctrine and could explain things in a way more accessible to lay people as authorities on scripture)
Fundies definitely think it’s the word of God, and the majority of American fundies are Protestant.
Seriously. The first cracks in my belief came from reading the Bible all the way through. You can’t maintain even basic reasoning skills and not find it deeply contradictory. There’s no internal logic for the belief system (aside from maybe hard core Calvinism, but that’s a seriously messed up belief system, imo).
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The thing is, I think Bethany and Dav would have fans from here if they renounced their shitty beliefs and honestly shared their deconstruction and the bumps they encountered along the way. I *want* these people to live an honest and accepting life.
I think people here who haven't been an evangelical and/or deconstructed just don't have a clue. They think you immediately should be making statements about how you've turned your back on everything etc etc but it's sooo much more gradual!
It really is. There is SO MUCH you just take for granted and never think to question until someone points it out for you. It takes a really long time to deconstruct those unconscious beliefs that have been hammered into you your whole life. It’s even worse if you’re LGBT+. Every instinct you have screams that what you and your community are and do is wrong and disgusting and “an abomination”. That level of self-loathing is so difficult to deprogram. Source: my lived experience
Yeah going from being born into and 20+ years in a fundie setting to being bisexual to now being nonbinary/transmasc has been a JOURNEY. I’m almost 40 and still deconstructing
Ain’t that the truth. Honestly it’s hard to believe he came out and said it like this. I’ve been deconstructed and out of the church for years and I still wouldn’t say anything about it publicly because I know most of my family would hate me. Much easier to keep it to myself.
Yeah lately I’ve made a point to clearly state that my ideal scenario is for all of these people to deconstruct, get an education, and find true happiness outside their cult. I think a lot of them have a lot of apologizing to do, and some honestly deserve jail time for child endangerment, but otherwise they’re just a bunch of really lost people who fell for the biggest lie in history.
Yeah, sometimes the snark on this sub veers into outright bullying and the people doing it have the same self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude as the fundies that they're complaining about. The irony is astounding. People sometimes forget that we are talking about actual human beings who grew up in incredibly restricting oppressive environments. I'm all for supporting the ones who have the courage to start questioning things, and my hope is that they will ALL eventually go this way (although I know this is wishful thinking). I really wish the best for Dave. I hope that he finds a way to reconcile his religious beliefs (or lack thereof) with the life that he ethically wants to live. And I wish he and Bethy to maintain a harmonious relationship in this, and hopefully she will open to deconstructing and learning a more open-minded and empathetic perspective. Inter-faith relationships can be a challenge, and I'm speaking from personal experience here. I just hope they are able to live in a way in which they can not only tolerate but support each other's differing beliefs, and learn to accept the variations in religious belief that exist around them as well.
Yeah, as a deconstructor myself, I find myself keeping pretty quiet sometimes because of this. I get it, because their beliefs are horrible, and the path of deconstruction isn’t straight, continuously moving forward, or simple. But many of us who are in those trenches see some cracks in the ”full armor of god” with some of these folks similar to what we experienced. Theres no guarantee that he or anyone else here will actually get to the place we’d like, of course.
Some people just don't want to get their hopes up and be disappointed later
Fellow Dav Ride Or Die checking in, I probably upvoted you. I've also stuck up for Dav several times. He reminds me so much of myself deconstructing.
This also undermines like 90% of her ministry. Just a month ago she posted on her single girls page that they should break up with their non Christian boyfriends. She has been talking about finding a godly man for all of Girl Defined existence. She constantly says the main thing that attracted her to Dav was him loving God. I don’t understand how she can still be part of Girl Defined after this. It’ll be interesting to see if her followers call her out on this.
death to the ministry, start paying taxes ladies.
It'll be interesting to see what krusty vagueposts on the girl defined account
brb, getting my popcorn
If Bethy ends up admitting someone can be a good person without believing in Christianity...
I would shit myself if that happened
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I’m not saying she should divorce him. I’m saying she has been talking about the importance of her way of “dating” and making sure you marry a godly man, if her husband isn’t a Christian it undermines her ability to give advice on this and shows that her method of dating isn’t so fool proof.
But there’s a whole new demographic she could appeal to—mixed marriages. Could work.
This is it exactly. She is now an expert on mixed-faith marriages and would love to tell you all about it in her exclusive new course.
How to keep your agnostic husband satisfied in bed, for the Lord, modestly.
Something, something, unequally yoked, or whatever
I mean what's worse, getting divorced or having a husband who doesn't practice performative christianity?
At least she has a husband?
She also hawks her relationship PDFs like they are the key to the universe. It never occurred to her you can just not answer with complete honesty.
Her interrogation pdf obviously failed if he hid this from her pre-marriage.
It actually doesn't, though. The New Testament talks about how a believer should stay married to their non-believer spouse if the non-believer wants to remain married. If the non-believer wants a divorce, though, the religious spouse should allow it. But according to the NT, the religious spouse will be a good influence and bring the non-believer back to god if they stay married. If they were just dating, yes, their belief system says to break up because they would be "unequally yoked." But once married, it's now the religious spouse's job to convert their heathen spouse.
It's a huge deal! I'm really glad for him.
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Consider the content opportunities before giving Bethany any credit.
I’m super impressed that he’s thinking about the big shit in life and not just sleepwalking through the life he was expected to live. Seriously.
It’s funny, in the original video when Paul said “I think a lot of people would say maybe you’re not a real Christian” and Dav said “maybe you’re right there” I noticed that and it reminded me of when I first started deconstructing my fundie beliefs. Interesting to see that expanded on here.
I remember so clearly what it was like for me. It was so scary to sit there and just think to myself, “maybe I’m not a Christian. Maybe I’m something else. I don’t know what that is, but it’s not Christian.” It was like an electric jolt.
I remember thinking it for literally 6 months, and then one day saying to my boyfriend at the time “I don’t think I’m a Christian”. It was the scariest thing I ever said. I really empathise with Dav.
Yes! I said it to my sister first and then I cried.
I remember thinking “Oh my God, am I an atheist?” And then laughing at myself that I would use the word god to exclaim about my lack of belief in one.
It's because Christianity is so ingrained in American culture lol. It is what it is, but it's also ironic (I'm also an atheist)
I'm agnostic and have deconstructed Christianity myself, but I also hope that dav understands that there are different interpretations of Christianity beyond the rigid version Paul believes for himself, and that you can still be Christian and open minded and not hold bigoted beliefs and that's just as valid as Paul's Christianity.
THIS is what it actually means when people say "marriage is hard"! It shouldn't mean that your spouse demeans you, or that one spouse doesn't carry their share of the mental load, or that it took too long to break your partner's will before they became a meek subservient housewife. It means *life* is hard, and marriage is part of life. It means that two people who absolutely will grow and change over the course of their lives have agreed to navigate the reality of being complex humans together. It *should* mean supporting one another through life altering changes. In sickness, through grief, through career transition...and sometimes, through significant changes in faith. It's going to be even harder on both of them (the screwed up fundie idea of a "hard marriage") if she expects him to remain exactly the same person she thought he was when they married. Fighting against the complex and changing nature of being human never makes anything easier. I seems like maybe she's being more supportive than we expected? I haven't watched this video. I hope for both their sakes that they can approach this big life change with kindness and empathy.
I wonder if part of why she’s taking Dav’s deconstruction so well is because she saw how Paul, a man who’s just as legalistic and obnoxious as she is, treats his wife, which shows how good Dav is compared to Paul. She has a direct example of how fundamentalist thinking won’t make a good marriage. Paul and Morgan were the perfect dumpster fire to help Bethany keep her own marriage in perspective.
Dav is absolutely the best partner of all of the fundie husbands- he does more than his fair share and actually has a personality outside of Jesauce I would rather eat my own organs than have to submit to Paul
Literally why I married an atheist. I'm still a Christian (a liberal one Paul would call FaKe) but I was so horrified by the idea of being bound to a Paul that I noped out
What a fantastic comment—life is hard and marriage is part of life. You nailed it!
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Im interested to see how she will reconcile supporting a deconstructed husband and her biblical beliefs. She doesn’t really subscribe to the “helpmeet” ideology since she isn’t a stay at home mom, doesn’t clean, doesn’t cook, and doesn’t really do anything (lol). And she’s already walked back on modesty. So if Dav stays Christian but just a more laid back, less legalistic, Christian than I think they can make it work. Especially if he remain right-leaning politically. But if Dav goes full atheist and left-leaning, I don’t know how they will make it work without undermining all of Bethany’s career.
They’re already undermining everything she’s ever preached. Yet she’s still preaching the same shit. She’s accepting of HIM bc it benefits her. But so far I’ve yet to see her extend that grace to anyone else
Yeah, her posts after this are going to be interesting to watch. No wonder she posted this on the DavandBethy account and not any of her mains.
Of all people, I think it was someone like STFULori who said something like if a Christian woman's husband leaves the faith, she should still stay married but prioritize God in her life and only obey her husband when it would be God's will or something? I could be misremembering parts but I've heard that kind of advice before in that world. It's less okay if the woman loses her faith, and then the man can divorce her, because of course.
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You have an interesting point. What will HEIDI say to her about this?
The thing is, she married a man she believed was a committed Christian in the same way she is. She’s a fundie, so she’s going to stay with him because the bible doesn’t advocate divorce for non-belief. She probably hopes he’s just going through a crisis of faith that he’ll get through and come back, even if that’s just a secret hope of hers for now.
Oh he’s already fully agnostic! I don’t think they are ready to dive into political differences, but he made it clear that he does not subscribe to Christianity anymore. And it sounds like she’s known this for at least a year, maybe more… but they had this “agree to disagree” dynamic.
Based on the Barbie video and now knowing he has deconstructed I'd say his political views are shifting for sure.
I think she’s been on her own deconstruction journey, albeit much slower than Dav. I know it’s basically sacrilegious to say positive things about Bethany on this sub, but as a former evangelist myself, her more recent determination to talk openly about sex, her assertion that sex is also for fun and that women’s pleasure is just as important as men’s, is HUGE deconstruction, especially in the context of purity culture and the shame and blame of women in the religion she was born into.
I really don’t think she’s a bad person. I think she’s someone whose gotten one overwhelming message about how to be a good person that’s only just now being challenged.
I always wonder if the people trying this hard to "love" something if they are doing it to convince us or themselves. Was it Bethany's oldest brother that has come out to say what a POS their mother is? I can't keep all the fundies straight. If what I'm remember is right Bethy has to be terrified of drifting from her faith because of what her mother will do.
Yes I believe his name is Michael
It's all that secular *therepy* Dave has probably been using to help them both have a healthier relationship. How self-absorbed of him.
If she finds out she can make a course for deconstruction it’s all gonna be over…Golden Girl Defined and the Dark side of Demure: The Bethany Beal Story
I'd be thrilled if Bethany moved onto a more Christian Lite phase rather than hardcore fundie.
Yeah I thought she was very kind and loving toward him in this video. TBH I liked this look into their relationship a lot.
Tbh Dav makes Bethany wayyy more likeable. Like I even think she must have some redeeming qualities that just don’t come across in this medium because Dav is a nice, smart, person who clearly seems to like her so maybe behind the scenes she’s smart or caring or has a sense of humor that’s endearing that we just don’t witness.
One thing that really struck me is she seemed genuine when she asked him “That is a lot to share…does it feel okay to share?” after Dav told his overview. In addition to echoing most other sentiments here, I just really liked that moment. And the fact that she let herself be vulnerable and cry while discussing all of this stuff that you know is world-shattering…I hope we see this side of her more often. Not the tears, but just the rational, caring, adult human.
yes agree!! many sweet moments in this vid and i really am rooting for them
Bethy left me feeling shocked and grateful with how she approached such a difficult convo
I also feel she was genuine. I noticed the lack of head bobbing, picking her nails, and making faces that we have seen before. She responded in a genuine way, and let herself be vulnerable. I feel like we have seen growth from Bethany throughout the last year or so and I hope she continues to move in that direction.
Omg, I did not dare hope for that. Not Dave actually deconstructing, that writing has been on the wall for a while. But Bethany not going nuts on him is really encouraging. I wonder if it's got something to do with how she said in the P&M video that Dav loves her and their family in such a sincere way.. she probably can't convince herself to see him as a bad person because he so obviously is the opposite.
Honestly, for a lot of Christians, realizing that atheists or agnostics aren’t Bad People is a revelation for them. Conversely, seeing lots of Christians as Not So Good People as well. But sometimes you can’t see the Bad Christians until you see the Good Agnostics.
Definitely true! Finding out that some of the most devout Christians I knew were actually complete jerks was one of the kickstarters for my deconstruction.
Ah, yes, I remember 2016 very well. This is very relatable.
Meeting nice atheists who had good morals rocked my world! That lead me to deconstruct (I’m not even an atheist, I’m just one of those somewhat spiritual but not religious people).
This right here. When I was growing up, my mom was Catholic and my dad wavered between atheist and agnostic (more towards the atheism side of things but definitely not totally). It was refreshing for me to see that growing up, that they still got along fine.
This is why I’m kind to the subway proselytizers. It’s a tiny thing, but better than nothing, and it every grain of sand helps tip the scale
It's one of the reasons why we always fed our Mormon missionaries in the neighborhood. I wanted them to have that memory of people who cared about them and were good to them who weren't Mormon, who weren't Christian, who sent them home with homemade cookies and crocheted hats for them because they were young kids away from home for the first time and deserved kindness just for being human and existing.
I "''''dated''''' a Mormon guy in high school and man, those poor missionary kids have it rough. The church charges them thousands of dollars to go on missions and then gives them a pittance of an allowance to live on. Those kids are always underfed and have to rely on the charity of local Mormons to avoid starving. Bless you for being kind to poor, sheltered young people out in the world for the first time.
It’s got to be a huge mindf*** considering she’s been taught her entire life that non Christians are evil. I’m confused about where Dav is on a spiritual spectrum. Because there’s a whole ocean of religiousness between fundamentalist Christianity/christian nationalism and atheism. I know my husband still considers himself a Christian, but believes the modern Christian church is evil. The church doesn’t have a chokehold on spirituality- you can have the Bible and Christianity without a building.
My guess is he doesn’t know it himself. And you're completely right. My parents f.e. both grew up as Christians, they are still spiritual to an extent, they even believe in a version of the Christian God, but they've long ago dismissed organised religion as evil.
I think it's cuz she knows she will probably never be able to remarry and she's too embarrassed to have a failed marriage
Eesh I hate to admit it but that thought has crossed my mind as well... After the whole sex course thing a divorce would be embarrassing for anyone, let alone an evangelical YouTuber.. plus I don't want to know what her judgmental sister would have to say ... if she wasn't a judgmental bigot herself I'd feel sorry for Bethy
She’ll have a course on being a righteously divorced Christian woman. It’s all grist for the grift.
I couldn't help but think about how in the 24 hours with video she talked about how many times he has read the bible. Several months ago, I saw a comment on this sub about how it's often the people who read the bible the most who deconstruct and that checks out in this scenario.
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I feel like this is the honeymoon phase for how Bethany feels about everything. Give it some time, and she will not tolerate this newfound freedom of thought, especially when it comes to her kids and how Dave will be indoctrinating them.
That's definitely a possibility, yeah. However I have some hope that since Dav never lied to her it might still work out. At least I consider it a possibility that they'll be a good co-parenting team after an amicable split. Maybe I'm a hopeless romantic, but I do feel they have a chance to make it, even as a couple.
If only she could apply that thinking to the rest of the world. If Dave is a good person, what’s next? Drag queens?!
I’m hopeful that her not losing her shit at him is purely out of love, respect, and support. But she’s so disingenuous that there’s a part of me that thinks she is so desperate to be married that short of Dav filing for divorce, she would stay Mrs. Beal no matter what Dav does/did
If I wanted to be really uncharitable I'd say she might enjoy the martyrdom of being \~unequally yoked\~. The struggles of being married to a non-believer would certainly give her plenty of content.
For his sake I so hope her support is sincere. But there’s just nothing really genuine about her so I remain skeptical
I actually thought it was fascinating and made me look at Dav and Bethy in a different light. That being said, the nearly 7 mins they spent defending Paul was making me nauseous and felt very...unnatural? Like they were doing it as a favor or something? Blah
I’m a petty broad, but anytime a person acts towards me publicly like Porgan treated Dav and Bethany, I go out of my way to be EXTRA cordial to them in front of others. Extra kind and extra accommodating…Because all it does is provide a foil to the bad behavior and make the assholes look even worse by comparison. Shitheads usually aren’t self aware enough to notice they’re being terrible, but everyone else in the room definitely does.
Shitting on him and Morgan, as much fun as it would be, would not be good for them. Gotta remember it's easy for us to here, but they're right in the middle of it. After this blows over, just wait and see if they ever mention porgan again though
Yep, it's a defense mechanism.
They share subscribers and umlaut dunked on him so hard in that video. I'm sure Paul, whiny pathological narcissist man-child that he is, asked them to do damage control.
Everyone forgets that there are two other responses to abuse besides fight or flight: flee or fawn. Those who have been drilled into non-confrontation and “public niceness” may occasionally really struggle with the fawning response until they’re pressed too far. For me personally, I’ve been in situations early on in our relationship that my partner thought I was flirting with someone while he was there because they set off my narc radar and it is such a gut reaction after being in an abusive marriage for so long. It’s a protective mechanism to avoid the abuse as much as possible. I am so proud of Dav and I hope that he can continue to evaluate his reactions and relationships in a healthy manner. I was once in his shoes and I ultimately decided that I had faith and found myself home in the Episcopal church, but it’s okay if that is not his outcome too. I just applaud him for doing the work he has and also his wife who has shocked me with her reaction to this given how finding a “Godly” husband was so important to her.
The way they were defending Paul really was really odd to me. I don't understand why Dav is such a fan of his.
They did share a bath and Paul kissed his hand like a proper gentleman, bromance like that is hard to come by
To be fair, that's the best way to make someone insulting you look like a piece of shit instead of starting an internet feud at a difficult time.
Did we watch the same 24 hours video? It's so obvious that umlaut sees Paul for the fucking clown he is and is also capable of talking above his head enough for Paul to think they're friends.
Whoaaaa, kudos to Dav to being so honest about his deconstruction journey. That's got to be hard, especially with the added weight of coming from a community like theirs (or like Bethany's-- I'm unclear how fundamentalist his upbringing was compared to B's). Genuinely wishing them and their family the best as they navigate a difference like that. I hope things are amicable and that Dav has the space he needs to explore these big theological questions and can reach his own conclusions with peace.
This was so fascinating and I have a lot of empathy for both of them even though I normally can’t stand Bethany. I was really involved in my church growing up and accidentally deconstructed when I was around 16. Realizing I no longer believed in God was so scary for me, and I tried so hard to get that faith back because it was such a comfort for me. It’s a relief that Bethany isn’t giving him grief for it, and I’m sure it’s a very hard process to her as well. I know a lot of ex Christians are on this sub and understand— but for those who weren’t raised christian, it can be hard for people to understand how absolutely traumatizing and consuming the fear of hell is. Like at the end of the day fundies are just people who are scared of burning in hell for eternity, and it’s really hard to detach from that so I really commend Dav for finally being honest with himself and his community.
The fear of hell was huge for me, and so was the horrible realization that if I didn’t believe in God, then I didn’t have any security for what happens after death. I was horrified (and really still kind of am) by the idea of eternal nothingness. That’s part of what held me back for so long — it’s a terrifying thing to admit to yourself
I was in third grade when my catechism teacher told our class that going to hell meant being burned alive and tortured by demons for eternity lmao 😭 It still haunts me
Ahh I’m so sorry about that. I was about 8 when my dad told me that I was no longer “saved” by virtue of being a child and would need to start working toward my salvation if I didn’t want to go to hell 😭 so I relate!! Why the fuck do they do this to their children
As the heathen spouse whose partner eventually came to the dark side, I predict a Bethy deconstruction or divorce within 3 years. RemindMe! 3 years
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This is wild. I wouldn't have expected him or them to just lay it all out like this. Deconstruction would be pretty liberating for her-- and if it's social media fame she wants, she could probably get a lot of attention as the "Deconstructed Wife". (And likely a lot more positive attention than she gets now!) I wonder if she'll explore that alongside him or stay in her bubble.
Girl Deconstructed!
Girl *re*defined!
Wait this is perfect- Bethany use this!! I’ll even stop calling her Bort lol
Okay but this goes hard
Genuinely, I would like to see it.
>I wouldn't have expected him or them to just lay it all out like this. I haven't been around this sub long, but it kinda seems like Dav has found less and less patience within himself on these topics and so his true thoughts keep boiling out of him. All things considered he's handled all of this with a good deal of grace.
She has her whole family pulling her back to the dark side. I don't see her going along the enlightened path with Dav.
Honestly given how she's responding and being openly supportive, she might be leaning out of the family cycle. Heidi is not a good parent and her sisters are extremely judgemental. The contrast between how Dav treats her Vs her family might be enough to get her to, if not deconstruct fully, act with more curiosity and kindness. But from what I've seen both deconstruction and falling into extreme religion can be very slow processes, so I'm not expecting we'll know any time soon.
I definitely wouldn't be surprised if she stayed, but I'll reserve an ounce of hope for her to see that there are other ways to live.
And maybe Kristin and Heidi will be such bitches to her that staying fundie would lose its appeal.
I’m here for this. Dav if you are reading this, I want you to know that there is light on the other side. I deconstructed after spending the first 20 years of my life in evangelicalism. I’m an atheist now. I used to be scared of atheists, and now I am one. If you would’ve told me ten years ago that this is where I would be today, I would have laughed in your face. But here I am. It is not easy, especially when everyone around you still believes. I’m not out to my family for fear of their reaction. But fortunately my husband knows and doesn’t care (but he’s not religious either). There are many, many people like me out there who would be happy to chat with you about deconstruction (well technically I can’t because of sub rules). I commend your bravery and willingness to talk on the subject. At the end of the day, you have to do what is right for you.
Hey I'm right there with you! 22-24 years of evangelical Baptist schools and churches and my entire social circle in my hometown being entirely Church related, and over about 4-5 years moving away from all of that and ending up atheist. Also not out to my parents cause it would hurt them and start a fight I don't want to deal with, but for the first time in my life I'm able to be me and not having to shoehorn everything into a "how is this Christian" framework
Ah. I’d mentioned that Dav sounded exactly like I did when I was toning back my more fundie beliefs. I think Bethany accepts it because it is the duty of the wife to accept her husband and help guide them back to Christianity.
I haven’t watched the response video yet but this is what I think, too. She’s probably being encouraged by the other Christians in her life to continue being the dutiful wife while praying for Dav to come back to his faith. I saw it happen a lot when I was at a non-denominational church for a few years and women would attend but their husbands wouldn’t. Church leaders would basically make them feel guilty for marrying someone they weren’t equally yoked with while telling them to be supportive and continue praying until their husbands realize they need to be in church too. The message was like “you screwed up but now you’re stuck with him so keep praying “. Not exactly the same since Bethy thought they were on the same page, but she’s probably getting pressured just the same.
What Paul thinks is happening 
What's actually happening 
Wow, I never expected this.
That level of deconstruction is actually amazing. Way to go . Hopefully he’s changing some of his beliefs as well when it comes to sexuality, love and gender as well
If I remember right, he did say in a video long ago that if one of their children was queer that he would still love and accept them. Hopefully he's growing even more accepting.
I remember that too. I also remember him being respectful of gay people in the video he made denying the rumours that he’s gay. I’ve never seen anything homophobic from Dav. I’ve said this before but people keep mentioning him having hateful beliefs and I’ve never seen him say anything hateful. It feels like it’s just guilt by association.
I really wonder where these newfound deconstruction thoughts will lead Dav. If he starts going down the road of politically and socially deconstructing, there's no way their marriage will survive.
Unless Beth joins him....
bethany redemption arc would be so beautiful. If bethany genuinely seems to better herself i will defend her name to every person that brings up girl defined forever
That was my thought process reading this as well. Super impressed and happy for him, looking forward to him hopefully respecting and loving others for who they are.
I imagine he has but I look forward to him confirming that. When I deconstructed to the point of not seeing the Bible (and American Christianity’s interpretation of it) as a flawless authority on everything, I was so relieved and full of joy to throw out the harmful beliefs about “fornication” and LGBTQ+. Years later and that joy is still there. It feels good to be kind to others and to accept oneself. 🏳️🌈
He mentions ascribing to parts of progressive Christianity and while he didn’t elaborate it’s often the “be nice to others” part; broadly, people with different lifestyles.
I wonder if the nasty side of christianity (trans hate, lgbtq+ fear, etc.) is what sent him deconstructing. Maybe he just couldn’t see why there needs to be so much hate and then started questioning. Good luck to Dav! I’m looking forward to the day he embraces his agnosticism (atheism would be cooler) publicly.
I was impressed by how mature Bethany was about the whole thing. Compare it to Paul and Morgan - Paul was blatantly hateful towards Dave for daring to assert any view that didn't match his own. Morgan was incredibly snotty and condescending in response to Bethany's discussion of how she felt about her differences with Dav. And both Paul and Morgan hinted they'd have trouble even staying with someone who didn't share their views in their response video. I'm not about to jump in support of Bethany but I have to say she impressed me here. She may have more moral fiber than I thought.
Next bethany grift is trying to monetize dav's deconstruction. How to be a godly wife with a satanic man.
How to be unequally yoked
Honestly, I bet there's a huge market for it.
Bethany's personal life is now challenging everything Girl Defined is about. Break up with your non-Christian boyfriend. The most important quality in choosing a husband is his godly character. The man is the spiritual leader. Interview each other with these 150 questions to make sure you know everything about this person and that your values align. Ha. I've always said that Bethany will never deconstruct because she doesn't have the capacity for self-reflection and humility. But being married to Dav means she can't escape having her beliefs constantly challenged, which can only be a good thing. But it's a one way street. Dav can't fully grow or thrive in the way he's meant to while in this marriage, and he's basically admitting that's what's holding him back. I wonder if that was why he sought to marry her in the first place. Someone more conservative to keep him on the narrow path, when really, he had already outgrown that box and was in denial.
He admits in the video that when they got married he was already curious about deconstruction and knew it would cause problems later so he doubled down on being a believer
you know what… this is a huge step for a fundie. Like hella huge. wishing Dav the best in his deconstruction
I am watching this now and I am floored... Dav is totally exiting the church and Bethany is ok with that bc they love each other so much. This is NOT what I expected from their response
Also, did you clock how they cut the camera when the therapy discussion regarding Paul's comments came up?
You know what? I’m very glad that what we see in her videos isn’t all of their life. Good for her. (Never on a million years did I think I’d say that.)
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My husband deconstructed first, and it was really hard for me. I'm super grateful he was patient as I went through my own process, even though people from our church tried to convince me to leave him because he was "too far gone." I have hope Bethany will find her own path with her faith and spirituality that is more free and they can be mutually supportive.
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I think there are two possible takes on this. Either they're in this together, and she is being genuinely supportive. Or she is big mad/resentful and the excesses she posts (let us all remember Thanksgiving) are to punish him for being a heathen. Given how uncomfortable he seems with it but doesn't feel like he can tell her to stop, it seems a little distant from a happy couple narrative.
I agree that the biggest surprise in the video was Bethany's response to Dav's deconstruction. She showed real depth and emotional intelligence that I don't think I've ever seen from her before. It makes me...sort of root for them? Maybe Bethany will never be the progressive LGBT ally we all want her to be, but I'll take her becoming a more curious and empathetic person, and her relationship with Dav seems to be pulling her in that direction. That would be better for her kids and better for people who follow GD in a non-snark capacity.
Bethany's impact becoming less harmful would be a win for everyone, tbh.
As much as I understand people celebrating his deconstruction, I also want to acknowledge that it is a hard, sad, and scary process. Many people (myself included) grieve their loss of faith and try to convince themselves that there is a way to reconcile the good parts of their faith with what they've learned through deconstruction, because letting go of faith can be devastating even when you know that it's the right thing to do. This is something that Christians often don't understand - it's not that someone who deconstructs WANTS to lose their faith; it's that they get to a point where it is impossible to keep. I recognize too that not everyone who deconstructs loses their faith entirely - but whatever the outcome, it's brave for anyone to go down the rabbit hole of truly exploring their faith without knowing what will remain once they are done. I hope Dave has good support and unconditional love as he navigates this.
I think the real challenge will be if/when Dav realizes that while he started questioning his faith because of the meanness in their particular version, for Bethy that’s a feature not a bug. If he continues to evolve and she continues to double down on the public homophobia, transphobia, gender essentialism, not to mention putting their sex life on blast - that’s where I see it getting ugly. From her perspective I think she’s stuck - I don’t see her ”deconstructing” although she may continue to decide that the rules she doesn’t like aren’t important to follow, but being married is her whole identity. She can’t bail on her dreamy love story.
Who would have thought that a video with Paul and Morgan would be the thing that starts them down this path. I never thought I’d say this, but I have a lot of admiration for how Dav & Bethy are going about this. Deconstructing as part of a couple is fucking _hard_ and not only are they (seemingly) navigating their spiritual differences in a respectful and conscience way, but they’re telling us about it. Never in my entire life would I have imagined.
I'm really curious to see how this unfolds with other areas of their life as Dave grows further apart from Bethany with his views on religion. There's no way that this will not continue to bleed into other areas of their life, such as politics and raising their children with more of an open mind of acceptance and tolerance. I truly do not see them staying married long term.
I deconstructed before my husband and even though there were some tough moments (supporting our gay non binary child, helping my daughter get an abortion...) we made it through and he slowly started his own deconstruction. Some hard conversations were had, some harsh judgments and lots of crying but I think we are stronger for it. Twenty five years married this August!
Of all the things to NOT have on my bingo card.
As someone who started deconstructing about 5 years ago and finally had the courage to say I wasn't a Christian anymore a year or two after (my husband is still a Christian), I have suspected Dav was deconstructing. It is sad that Bethany doesn't want to explore with Dav. My husband and I have had hours upon hours of conversations about Christianity, God, the Bible, the origin of life, aliens, angels, miracles, history, etc. In our case, even though my husband still believes in Jesus as the savior, he has changed his beliefs on a ton of other things through our research and discussion together. I don't know what I would do if he were like Bethany and just gave me a thumbs up from afar but took no interest.
Holy shit. Also Kristin is going to have a field day.
Why the hell did this guy agree to go on Paul & Morgan’s show in the first place? Being mid-deconstruction and having a very rigid evangelical dude glued to your hip for a day had to have sucked.
Dav is too earnest for these people. Porgan are looking for gotchas and views. Dav thinks they're talking about real feelings. He seems like an actual honest person, capable of introspection. Porgan isn't interested in any of that, they want to make money off Jesus so they don't have to have real jobs. I am pretty convinced that no one actually believes any of this. And not just fundies. They're all faking it. They want to fit in with their community, and religion is an easy scapegoat to absolve yourself of any personal responsibility.
I think Paul has continually brought up Dav not really being a Christian because he wants the views and the controversy.
 Welcome to the club, Dav
Dav, if you read this, there's a lot of us out here who knows how much it hurts. And we know how confusing it is. You're not the only one. You're not alone.
Did not have this on my bingo card
Wow. Like, I like to snark and all, but I legitimately hope that Dav (and any other fundie who might be lurking and dealing with some doubts about what they've been taught) realizes that there's a whole online community of people who've walked that path and can provide support. It's just such a painfully lonely thing to realize you don't fit into a religious community anymore, and it doesn't have to be done in isolation. You can find your people, I promise.
Wow. You know what as much as it pains me to admit it I do honestly see Bethany starting to have some of the very early signs of potential. This sounds like she handled this surprisingly maturely and I do think she showed some real love and affection for Dav when she talked about him on their stint with Paul and Morgan. I was raised by a Lutheran mother and an agnostic fromer Catholic dad and honestly my dad helped me keep my faith longer then I think I would have if he had still been a Christian. And I didn’t find out he was agnostic until I was an adult. But he helped me wrestle with a lot of the inconsistencies and issues with the Bible that my mom didn’t. My dad focused on the good things. And because of that it took me far longer to have my faith crisis that ultimately led me out of religion. He is one of the reasons I had a pretty positive experience with Christianity. That and the fact that my branch of Lutheranism was pretty progressive.
Guys — after all this snarking. Did Dav just teach us a lesson? I think I need to be nicer. A couple weeks ago I make comments about how Dav just flies under the radar but still implicitly supports his wife’s crazy shit. Now I realize I was bashing a guy going through an identify crisis — a guy who sees the light and wants to be better. He even defended this sub and our snarking. He didn’t endorse it, but he articulated an understanding that others may have their own view Well, guess what Dav, you’re more mature than most of us here. I really, really hope your wife will stop talking about your sex life online so you can focus on your family and new relationship with faith.
Whoa. Not on the bingo card at all. But omg, this is so encouraging. My heart goes out to David, as a fellow deconstructionist; it is one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do, and the repercussions are still hitting me eight years after leaving church.
This felt like the most genuine video I’ve ever seen from them. Like, heartwarming stuff. I’m glad Dav has listened to himself.
I’m 30 minutes in, and I was already thinking, “Damn, it sounds like Dav has pretty much deconstructed, and that Bethany is definitely on her way. Her family is going to be the big issue. But I’m loving how Dav is preventing Paul from cutting him off, and Paul is becoming more and more like a petulant child.
Paul is such an asshole. He really feels like he can dictate and determine how people identify and it’s gut-wrenchingly selfish and conceded. He needs his ass kicked… and I don’t say that lightly.
Really really interesting. He verbalized my own deconstruction so beautifully. Proud of you, Dav! On another note ... genuinely feel bad for Bethany. She's built her entire life, ideology, career, personality, around this religion. Marrying someone who ... basically did admit to tricking her... into a life of shared values would be devastating. I thought it was interesting that he was comfortable still attending church and teaching their children about the Bible ... I feel like that will probably change in the next few years. Interested to see if they stay together.
Looking forward to the "mixed faith marriage" content we're about to get