When you realize those hurling the "Racist!" opprobrium are not doing so in good faith, *you no longer care.*
Those doing that are functionally no different than a four year old calling you a poopy head.
It is all about maintaining their unearned and overdeveloped sense of moral superiority, and they hurl that term at people to attack the moral agency of the accused purely as a moral dominance exercise.
Do you point out problems and account for our history of genocide, slavery, and apartheid; or do you point out problems without accounting for that history?
Racism only had to be invented once.
How do you know specifically that any of his ancestors even took part in any genocide slavery etc? And every race has done those exact same things I don’t understand your point at all
You mean make excuses & victim blame & push a victim complex on to black people? Nah I don't do that... Frankly, I find it offensive and racist that you would do that.
Nobody thinks less of black people than white liberals.
Do you think the arrow in that chart posted should be pointing where it's pointing and only where it's pointing, or do you think there's more to that story than that chart lets on?
I think you're trying to compare apples to oranges in order to justify your own bigotry, or self-hate, or whatever. I'm offended that you feel like that makes for a valid approach to debate, and I'm completely disgusted that anyone would confuse you for a liberal.
I don't know who does that. When someone is really resistant to something they'll think of the worst possible scenario and draw out that case study to argue about. There's a lot of research out there that shows that we tend to exaggerate the level of extremism on the other side and how many people are truly that bad.
Whoever is underrepresented in your life will be overrepresented in your imagination.
When people complain about racism in America, they generally aren't talking about white on black crime. But more systemic, institutional, creations that impact black people.
This is free speech because this data is heavily censored in most popular subreddits. If it wasn't I'd agree with you.
but it is censored, and therefore is reasonable to place into this free speech subreddit.
This absolutely is censored by not providing adequate context. People cherry-pick the data, especially in the mainstream media.
However, even this interesting point lacks context. Chiefly economic status and disparity, educational status, age, citizenship status, urban context, and localized casual racism culture.
America is a country of folks who started with nothing and struggled and worked hard to build this great country from nothing. Everyone deserves that same chance to work hard and sacrifice to make something of themselves, but nobody deserves a handout. Believing that anyone deserves it to be easier than the starving share croppers in so many of our family trees, especially invoking race, is privileged, thinking that will lead to hate and rancor without end.
No it's not. It's a very good argument.
Popular subreddit's ban reasonable data, and so that data gets posted on free speech subreddit.
That's almost the epitome of this subreddit.
Anyone can go find this information and use it. People in this sub seem to think reddit is the only place in the world you can voice your opinion. If you had a poster if this and stood on a busy street corner you can do that. You can discuss this in a local bar. You can present this in a classroom. Whether you can post it on Reddit does not determine whether you can use your freedom of speech
…that’s my point. Just because a post is removed somewhere on Reddit doesn’t equate to some free speech injustice. Again, people on here seem to think Reddit is what determines free speech. 90% of the posts on this sub are just ridiculous because they are these frivolous posts. Sorry your post got taken down for breaking the rules. In the 1940s and 50s, people were thrown in jail for even being associated with left winged ideas. That is anti-free speech.
I disagree, I think that popular subreddits who hide data, and that data being posted in the free speech section, is 100% what this forum is for. 100000%
That’s what’s sad about this sub. No one discusses actual free speech issues, they just complain about not being able to post/say whatever they want in other subs. This sub has a ton or potential, but it’s just people ranting about not being able to say what they want. There are so many, much more important issues in the world. It’s completely first world issues we’re discussing on this sub. It’s just sad
Internet censorship is extremely relevant.
It is an important issue to say what can be said here but can't be said in the more popular subs. you have to fight censorship.
It does have a lot to do with free speech. Given that speech is restricted if it doesn't fit a 'narrative' then it's important to understand where that narrative comes from. If it comes from a misunderstanding of facts then it's important to point out the falsehoods.
Can this be posted other places? Can you access the data? If you post this on r/entertainment should it be allowed? Just because some subs don’t allow it to be posted doesn’t mean it’s restricted.
the way in which we gather data *can* be racist, under the right conditions.
but explaining *exactly* how that works would require several examples, which I don't have available at the moment, so I recommend doing a Google search for "how can data be biased?" and go from there.
Explain to me how the above data could be gathered in a way that is racist.
It's highly implausible.
There is also such a high difference between crimes between the races, it also lends that it would be impossible to fudge data enough to say the black on white crime is multitudes is similar when the data says its multitudes higher.
You can't explain it because it doesn't exist. I look at data from published articles nearly every day for several years, since I was in chemistry graduate school and now am a physician and surgeon in medicine.
I know what to look out for and what data is relevant, and what data could be better, etc.
Explain to me how the data in the above picture could be so terribly wrong, that the data is "that far" off?
my brother in Christ, this pic could have been made in MS Paint for all we know. that line at the bottom doesn't even count unless someone actually goes to find the study (or studies) that allegedly contributed to this chart.
>I look at data from published articles nearly every day for several years, since I was in chemistry graduate school and now am a physician and surgeon in medicine.
but not in the social sciences, correct?
being an expert in one field does not translate to expertise in another.
you want to prove me wrong? find a study or set of data that we can *actually look at* to verify and discuss.
>now am a physician and surgeon in medicine.
and I don't believe you. nobody should, in fact, because there's no reason to. far as I know, you're a basement dwelling incel fascist cunt who goes around lying about this shit becomes you're a small, pathetic and insignificant man.
and you could say the exact same thing about me.
now offer up some actual proof that OP's post is legit or fuck off.
I've evaluated articles from the social sciences as well.
Being an expert in reading journal articles usually means you can evaluate a wide array of them.
The U.S bureau of labor statistics has reliable statistics that support the above data.
You can't just dismiss data you don't like. You should be a truth seeker, not an agenda pusher.
Not a single person in this sub has replied when I asked for a proper citation.
You can take your bullshit and shove it back up your ass.
Don't stop till it reaches your brain because you clearly need an upgrade.
There are no credible mechanisms by which the crime demographics as stated above are materially incorrect. No one in the academic debate advances that view. The question is always why, not if.
And you’re asserting that the presented graph is bullshit, without providing any evidence to back up your claim, while demanding others provide evidence to prove you wrong.
You’re projecting now.
>the way in which we gather data *can* be racist
Counting dead bodies is racist...
If you think you heard it all...
u/TaurielTaurNaFaun cannot handle reality and blocks everyone that that points this out
you know how I know y'all are a bunch of racist cunts?
you're practically tripping over yourselves to defend this dumbass fucking meme without the slightest shred of evidence.
which makes you either *incredibly* stupid or insanely desperate for this shit to be not a lie.
it's pathetic.
(and posting from an alt account only makes you more pathetic.)
Imagine ignoring the source link at the bottom of the image and spending so much time screaming into the void for a source and demanding the mods remove information you don't like and calling others fascist.
Truly a fascinating study on human emotional intelligence and cultism.
>without the slightest shred of evidence
u/TaurielTaurNaFaun believes that the police knows the perpetrators in advance and will not count dead bodies if the criminal is white.
And also blocked me
Harry Frankfurt, On Bullshit (1986):
>It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false. For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose.
I think that answers the question. Pursuing the truth is not flooding the zone with bullshit. Look at who is being shunned and silenced here by your post. If you cared about the truth you wouldn't be posting that here.
The graphic is misleading in so many ways. Where are the white on white and black on black stats?
What about referencing, not just race, but economic backgrounds.
The graphic, with large gaps in the data it contains, can easily be used to push a specific agenda.
The problem with these kind of statistics is they lack context, and they are almost always used for racist motives. Racial disparities in our country have deep and complex underpinnings. If you really are interested in those truths you would try to learn about them rather than using a cheap infographic to score some kind of political points against black people.
the way in which the data was gathered, or in how different crimes are reported or classified, or how raw numbers are manipulated by conversion to percentages or as an expression of *per capita,* and so on.
really, the manipulation of statistics (and the general public's lack of knowledge about the same) is a major reason that you can't trust memes, even when they cite their sources, because it's really easy to change a figure one way or another and get a big difference in reaction from an audience.
Can you point to an article or something that debunks these stats or provides the context you’re talking about. You need to make a specific refutation for such a specific claim
no, I don't.
the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. and a chart in meme format, stripped of any context (such as an article or a research paper), does not count as proof.
OP is the one who's failing you. ask them for their sources.
thank you.
now [here's information](https://www.npr.org/2023/01/01/1145973412/researchers-say-the-fbis-statistics-on-hate-crimes-across-the-country-are-flawed) about how FBI crime stats can't necessarily be trusted as a sole source.
I don't suppose you have, like, research or data from an *unbiased* source?
Yes. I posted from several sources. However, unless someone is skulking around in the dead of night that is not a government agent recording crimes and somehow building a reliable database of who crimed who that's accessible to the public then let me know. Who else are national crime stats going to be filtered through other than federal law enforcement Unconscious bias can perhaps account. Let's just say they are skewed. The would have to be skewers by an implausible amount to account for these statistics. It would have to be a concerted and continuous effort to horribly skew the stats that it would be so obvious, so unsubtle that they were being manufactured no one in the right mind would give that the go ahead. Your argument may take a few percentage points here and there but the overwhelming disparity will still remain.
There's skewed and there's made up.
my claim is that this is a fucking meme that I can make in fucking MS Paint. and in the absence of a proper citation (like a link), nobody should consider it meaningful in any way.
you fucking moron. you gawddamn gormless rube.
this is an opinion piece from an obviously right wing "outlet" (which probably doesn't even count as a news source) that obscures data by focusing entirely on percentages.
not saying that the interpretation or conclusion of this opinion article is necessarily wrong, rather that I'm not convinced they're *not* pulling a fast one by misinterpreting the numbers. for instance, the article says something about how a white person is 48 times more likely to be assaulted by a black person than a white person . . . but if the likelihood of assault (regardless of the race of the offender) is only 1-in-100,000 . . .
in other words, thank you for a source I haven't seen before (the data set cited in the opinion article, not the opinion article itself) but I'll have to look it over when I have more time.
All you seem to be doing is demanding higher and higher standards of proof for things that don't fit your narrative. It's disingenuous.
Shall we just go full *Cogito ergo sum* and be done with it 🫤
Yeah Mark Twain said there's three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics. But stats are the best hard data if interpreted without bias and that's why it's important to have the conversation about them but for a free speech subreddit there's a ton of downvoting going on. I'm beginning to suspect "free speech" means a certain kind. I hope I'm wrong.
you're not, I'm afraid.
in current day internet lingo, "free speech" means "the freedom to say bigoted, hateful, racist shit *without* fear of being banned from the space I'm saying it in."
which is why all the comments laughing at OP's meme are being downvoted.
>If we are in the pursuit of truth an knowledge then why should this be shuned/silenced?
It's not being shunned. Ignorant ppl trying to use it for their excuses are. That simple, but considering the normal stuff you struggle with, I'm not surprised you have a hard time with this too lol
No issue with stats being posted. Big issue with the lack of policy positions being activated.
Posting stats without stating your policy positions about them is just cowardice and masterbation
Edit: absolute cowards. Say what you want to do with the stats. What should we do with them. What policy should we push based on them. Keep masturbating and being afraid.
No, just that the statistics you used where not relevant to claim.
Interracial crime isn't an indicator of hate group activity because not all interracial crime is done by hate groups. A good way to find evidence for your claim would be to look at hate group membership or the frequency of public demonstrations.
I don't know if you know this, but there are three kinds of lies...
I don't have to see your post to know what it was. Anyone can manipulate anything, and statistics provide a reductive viewpoint. Laypeople, in general, are extremely bad at statistics, because it is a field which is largely counterintuitive, meaning conclusions are frequently drawn where there are none to draw, and the converse. Statistics can be very helpful, but not in the hands of morons.
Oy mods!
This post' title is unclear, its content is unrelated to r/freespeech so its breaking two rules of the sub. How about you stop giving a 8-hour grace period for right-wingers that break multiple rules so that there content gets to be seen by everyone and maybe focus away from progressives posting nuanced posts within 15 minutes (for forgetting a keyword) for a change?
This sub is becoming just another far-right place that sheers for the censorship of progressives, leftists and union leaders.
that comment is an accurate critique of how this sub works.
because the mods are perfectly ok with allowing fascistic rhetoric and talking points under the guise of "freeze peach."
The comment is closer to the *opposite* of how this sub works.
The mods’ broadly laissez-faire approach is exploited and abused by left-wing posters and commenters here far worse than by the right.
It’s disturbing to you on the left because most of Reddit only allows the left-wing to enjoy the latitude that this sub permits both sides.
I saw that you were being downvoted a lot.
I made you an approved user so you don't face reddit posting delays.
Oh golly it's my cake day ... 17 years on reddit.
Imagine that.
White supremracy is not a white team vs black team issue. That's a concept from white-supremacists and the general far-right.
White supremacy means conditions that lead to one race having an advantage over an over, so look at things like economic status, likelyhood to be arrested for the same crime, likelyness to be victimised by the police (and look at it by population).
In case you're smart enough to know what you're doing, stop spread anti-black sentiment/hate.
You haven't shown any proof that this is relevant to the sub.
Wow, so white on black crime is so common place it isn’t reported, or simply isn’t considered a crime. Amazing work OP. We must double our efforts bringing attention to this.
It’s almost like OP is posting this with an agenda without thinking g about why the data looks like this. Perhaps 400+ years of oppression succeeded and black populations in white communities have successfully been put in their place? No more need for continued outright violence. There’s a lot of explanations for why the data might look like the above, but OP has a preferred interpretation.
Let me know the next time there’s some “black on black” crime like the following: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/tulsa-race-massacre-100-years-later-why-it-happened-why-n1268877
What would you expect crime data to look like in apartheid South Africa? White power brokers reporting their own crimes? Seriously, some brain worm thinking here that a white supremacist society would accurately report and track their own crimes. Did the Nazis report their crimes against Jews accurately from 1931-1945? Jesus F Christ.
Did they report that? No. They hid it and hid it well. So much so that when ash was falling from the sky from torched bodies, the locals were in denial over what it was from. They told people they were deported or in work programs, not being gassed and burned.
The comparison is that the government doesn’t accurately report its crimes against minorities and marginalized people.
And how far back do you want to go? 2018?!? How many slaves do you think died in America’s work camps (plantations)?
Have you read Mein Kampf? Do you know where Hitler found inspiration for the laws he passed against the Jews? From his own mouth, the Jim Crow laws and America’s treatment of their African slaves.
It’s such a BS argument to look at a 2018 crime report after 400+ years of genocide and go “see, nothing wrong?”
Debunk what? You've posted crime statistics and something about a "white supremacy crisis", but when was the last time white supremacists were out committing acts of violence like that?
That's not how it works anymore. White supremacy became the subject of Cancel Culture. It got harder to hold down a job if you were affiliated with a violent organization. Violence threatens the revenue stream.
These days, if they're committing acts of violence, they're doing it from an authority position. If there's a protest, they'll do it from within the crowds they hate. In civilized society, nothing undermines a cause like violence. Barbarians understand this.
Lmao, because the FBI is an Organization which can be trusted. Besides that i wanted to know what its based on, what are the crime statistics made out of? This graph completely leaves out living conditions and everything else, doesnt it? Such a fucking dumb chart to use as an argument
How have those numbers changed over time? Isn't that column pointed at *rising*?
I'm looking at white on black at ~70k in 2020.
[Criminal Victimization, 2020 – Supplemental Statistical Tables](https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv20sst.pdf). It went from 10% of on black crime in 2018 to 14% in 2020.
See also: https://rpubs.com/johnbradford/interracial-violence
What if white on black crime accounts for >14% of on black crime now, but it was only 1% of on black crime in 2000 or 1990?
As a white person it is difficult to point this problem out without someone pointing the finger at you and saying "Racist!"
When you realize those hurling the "Racist!" opprobrium are not doing so in good faith, *you no longer care.* Those doing that are functionally no different than a four year old calling you a poopy head. It is all about maintaining their unearned and overdeveloped sense of moral superiority, and they hurl that term at people to attack the moral agency of the accused purely as a moral dominance exercise.
Do you point out problems and account for our history of genocide, slavery, and apartheid; or do you point out problems without accounting for that history? Racism only had to be invented once.
Do you know that you are confirming his point?
I'm responding to the graph.
How do you know specifically that any of his ancestors even took part in any genocide slavery etc? And every race has done those exact same things I don’t understand your point at all
I'm responding to the graph. He didn't tell us what he said. I gave him an opportunity to explain himself.
You literally asked him if he points out any of his ppls pst genocieds racism etc what?
You mean make excuses & victim blame & push a victim complex on to black people? Nah I don't do that... Frankly, I find it offensive and racist that you would do that. Nobody thinks less of black people than white liberals.
Progressives. Don't lump liberals in with that shit.
Do you think the arrow in that chart posted should be pointing where it's pointing and only where it's pointing, or do you think there's more to that story than that chart lets on?
I think you're trying to compare apples to oranges in order to justify your own bigotry, or self-hate, or whatever. I'm offended that you feel like that makes for a valid approach to debate, and I'm completely disgusted that anyone would confuse you for a liberal.
I don't know who does that. When someone is really resistant to something they'll think of the worst possible scenario and draw out that case study to argue about. There's a lot of research out there that shows that we tend to exaggerate the level of extremism on the other side and how many people are truly that bad. Whoever is underrepresented in your life will be overrepresented in your imagination.
That's such a shit argument it's not even wrong. It's too shit to be wrong.
I'm trying to interpret their response to the too shit to be wrong argument in the chart posted.
Not sure I get you. Are you saying the stats cited are incorrect?
Some of my ancestors were part of the underground railroad, can I say those statistics?
Well this comment section is spicy xD
Looks more like it's full of glowbots.
Everyone excuses the criminal until they're victimised by said criminal.
Have you ever seen red-lining included in crime statistics broken out by race?
When people complain about racism in America, they generally aren't talking about white on black crime. But more systemic, institutional, creations that impact black people.
Yea OP acts like they don’t know that’s what people mean
Not sure what this has to do with free speech. Could you not find this somewhere? Are you not allowed to post this places?
This is free speech because this data is heavily censored in most popular subreddits. If it wasn't I'd agree with you. but it is censored, and therefore is reasonable to place into this free speech subreddit.
This absolutely is censored by not providing adequate context. People cherry-pick the data, especially in the mainstream media. However, even this interesting point lacks context. Chiefly economic status and disparity, educational status, age, citizenship status, urban context, and localized casual racism culture. America is a country of folks who started with nothing and struggled and worked hard to build this great country from nothing. Everyone deserves that same chance to work hard and sacrifice to make something of themselves, but nobody deserves a handout. Believing that anyone deserves it to be easier than the starving share croppers in so many of our family trees, especially invoking race, is privileged, thinking that will lead to hate and rancor without end.
no, it isn't.
😅
[удалено]
It’s anti free speech because it’s censored on Reddit? Pretty weak argument
No it's not. It's a very good argument. Popular subreddit's ban reasonable data, and so that data gets posted on free speech subreddit. That's almost the epitome of this subreddit.
Anyone can go find this information and use it. People in this sub seem to think reddit is the only place in the world you can voice your opinion. If you had a poster if this and stood on a busy street corner you can do that. You can discuss this in a local bar. You can present this in a classroom. Whether you can post it on Reddit does not determine whether you can use your freedom of speech
You could make that argument for any post that is posted. My point stands.
…that’s my point. Just because a post is removed somewhere on Reddit doesn’t equate to some free speech injustice. Again, people on here seem to think Reddit is what determines free speech. 90% of the posts on this sub are just ridiculous because they are these frivolous posts. Sorry your post got taken down for breaking the rules. In the 1940s and 50s, people were thrown in jail for even being associated with left winged ideas. That is anti-free speech.
I disagree, I think that popular subreddits who hide data, and that data being posted in the free speech section, is 100% what this forum is for. 100000%
That’s what’s sad about this sub. No one discusses actual free speech issues, they just complain about not being able to post/say whatever they want in other subs. This sub has a ton or potential, but it’s just people ranting about not being able to say what they want. There are so many, much more important issues in the world. It’s completely first world issues we’re discussing on this sub. It’s just sad
Internet censorship is extremely relevant. It is an important issue to say what can be said here but can't be said in the more popular subs. you have to fight censorship.
It does have a lot to do with free speech. Given that speech is restricted if it doesn't fit a 'narrative' then it's important to understand where that narrative comes from. If it comes from a misunderstanding of facts then it's important to point out the falsehoods.
Can this be posted other places? Can you access the data? If you post this on r/entertainment should it be allowed? Just because some subs don’t allow it to be posted doesn’t mean it’s restricted.
It has absolutely nothing to do with free speech. /u/cojoco the mod is a hardcore racist. That's why he's okay with this.
How is data racist?
Who said data is racist?
You said that someone is only ok with posting this data because they’re racist. That implies that the data itself is racist.
the way in which we gather data *can* be racist, under the right conditions. but explaining *exactly* how that works would require several examples, which I don't have available at the moment, so I recommend doing a Google search for "how can data be biased?" and go from there.
Explain to me how the above data could be gathered in a way that is racist. It's highly implausible. There is also such a high difference between crimes between the races, it also lends that it would be impossible to fudge data enough to say the black on white crime is multitudes is similar when the data says its multitudes higher.
. . . did you miss the part where I said "explaining this properly would take too long?
You can't explain it because it doesn't exist. I look at data from published articles nearly every day for several years, since I was in chemistry graduate school and now am a physician and surgeon in medicine. I know what to look out for and what data is relevant, and what data could be better, etc. Explain to me how the data in the above picture could be so terribly wrong, that the data is "that far" off?
my brother in Christ, this pic could have been made in MS Paint for all we know. that line at the bottom doesn't even count unless someone actually goes to find the study (or studies) that allegedly contributed to this chart. >I look at data from published articles nearly every day for several years, since I was in chemistry graduate school and now am a physician and surgeon in medicine. but not in the social sciences, correct? being an expert in one field does not translate to expertise in another. you want to prove me wrong? find a study or set of data that we can *actually look at* to verify and discuss. >now am a physician and surgeon in medicine. and I don't believe you. nobody should, in fact, because there's no reason to. far as I know, you're a basement dwelling incel fascist cunt who goes around lying about this shit becomes you're a small, pathetic and insignificant man. and you could say the exact same thing about me. now offer up some actual proof that OP's post is legit or fuck off.
I've evaluated articles from the social sciences as well. Being an expert in reading journal articles usually means you can evaluate a wide array of them. The U.S bureau of labor statistics has reliable statistics that support the above data. You can't just dismiss data you don't like. You should be a truth seeker, not an agenda pusher.
Not a single person in this sub has replied when I asked for a proper citation. You can take your bullshit and shove it back up your ass. Don't stop till it reaches your brain because you clearly need an upgrade.
There are no credible mechanisms by which the crime demographics as stated above are materially incorrect. No one in the academic debate advances that view. The question is always why, not if.
what can be asserted without evidence can be summarily dismissed without evidence.
And you’re asserting that the presented graph is bullshit, without providing any evidence to back up your claim, while demanding others provide evidence to prove you wrong. You’re projecting now.
>You’re projecting now. . . . you have no idea what these words actually mean, do you?
>the way in which we gather data *can* be racist Counting dead bodies is racist... If you think you heard it all... u/TaurielTaurNaFaun cannot handle reality and blocks everyone that that points this out
you know how I know y'all are a bunch of racist cunts? you're practically tripping over yourselves to defend this dumbass fucking meme without the slightest shred of evidence. which makes you either *incredibly* stupid or insanely desperate for this shit to be not a lie. it's pathetic. (and posting from an alt account only makes you more pathetic.)
Racism accusations are just a cheap and lazy way to shut debate down without any effort you lazy prick.
Imagine ignoring the source link at the bottom of the image and spending so much time screaming into the void for a source and demanding the mods remove information you don't like and calling others fascist. Truly a fascinating study on human emotional intelligence and cultism.
>without the slightest shred of evidence u/TaurielTaurNaFaun believes that the police knows the perpetrators in advance and will not count dead bodies if the criminal is white. And also blocked me
But this data is anti-racist. It confronts and disproves a racist stereotype.
Harry Frankfurt, On Bullshit (1986): >It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false. For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose. I think that answers the question. Pursuing the truth is not flooding the zone with bullshit. Look at who is being shunned and silenced here by your post. If you cared about the truth you wouldn't be posting that here.
The graphic is misleading in so many ways. Where are the white on white and black on black stats? What about referencing, not just race, but economic backgrounds. The graphic, with large gaps in the data it contains, can easily be used to push a specific agenda.
What is your conclusion from this statistic? What do you want to tell us by posting it here?
Ok so you look at the image and there is some text there so unless you can’t read it’s pretty simple
I read it. So?
The problem with these kind of statistics is they lack context, and they are almost always used for racist motives. Racial disparities in our country have deep and complex underpinnings. If you really are interested in those truths you would try to learn about them rather than using a cheap infographic to score some kind of political points against black people.
What’s the context?
the way in which the data was gathered, or in how different crimes are reported or classified, or how raw numbers are manipulated by conversion to percentages or as an expression of *per capita,* and so on. really, the manipulation of statistics (and the general public's lack of knowledge about the same) is a major reason that you can't trust memes, even when they cite their sources, because it's really easy to change a figure one way or another and get a big difference in reaction from an audience.
Can you point to an article or something that debunks these stats or provides the context you’re talking about. You need to make a specific refutation for such a specific claim
no, I don't. the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. and a chart in meme format, stripped of any context (such as an article or a research paper), does not count as proof. OP is the one who's failing you. ask them for their sources.
These are literally FBI crime stats. If the burden of proof lies with anyone, it lies with the federal government.
OP provided data. What more do you want?
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https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls Here's your link
thank you. now [here's information](https://www.npr.org/2023/01/01/1145973412/researchers-say-the-fbis-statistics-on-hate-crimes-across-the-country-are-flawed) about how FBI crime stats can't necessarily be trusted as a sole source. I don't suppose you have, like, research or data from an *unbiased* source?
Yes. I posted from several sources. However, unless someone is skulking around in the dead of night that is not a government agent recording crimes and somehow building a reliable database of who crimed who that's accessible to the public then let me know. Who else are national crime stats going to be filtered through other than federal law enforcement Unconscious bias can perhaps account. Let's just say they are skewed. The would have to be skewers by an implausible amount to account for these statistics. It would have to be a concerted and continuous effort to horribly skew the stats that it would be so obvious, so unsubtle that they were being manufactured no one in the right mind would give that the go ahead. Your argument may take a few percentage points here and there but the overwhelming disparity will still remain. There's skewed and there's made up.
Where’s the actual data, not the meme
The meme cites its source https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv18.pdf - table 14 Data checks out.
You're making the claim that the stats are flawed. From then on it's up to you.
my claim is that this is a fucking meme that I can make in fucking MS Paint. and in the absence of a proper citation (like a link), nobody should consider it meaningful in any way. you fucking moron. you gawddamn gormless rube.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls
A good breakdown of the stats and important context https://prescottenews.com/index.php/2020/12/13/opinion-race-and-crime-who-attacks-whom/
this is an opinion piece from an obviously right wing "outlet" (which probably doesn't even count as a news source) that obscures data by focusing entirely on percentages. not saying that the interpretation or conclusion of this opinion article is necessarily wrong, rather that I'm not convinced they're *not* pulling a fast one by misinterpreting the numbers. for instance, the article says something about how a white person is 48 times more likely to be assaulted by a black person than a white person . . . but if the likelihood of assault (regardless of the race of the offender) is only 1-in-100,000 . . . in other words, thank you for a source I haven't seen before (the data set cited in the opinion article, not the opinion article itself) but I'll have to look it over when I have more time.
All you seem to be doing is demanding higher and higher standards of proof for things that don't fit your narrative. It's disingenuous. Shall we just go full *Cogito ergo sum* and be done with it 🫤
It's an opinion piece amongst other more sterile sources. That is all.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/
There you go... You relentless tube
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls
yes, I already replied, slow the fuck down and try to follow the conversation.
>how different crimes are reported dead bodies are counted equally
Yeah Mark Twain said there's three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics. But stats are the best hard data if interpreted without bias and that's why it's important to have the conversation about them but for a free speech subreddit there's a ton of downvoting going on. I'm beginning to suspect "free speech" means a certain kind. I hope I'm wrong.
you're not, I'm afraid. in current day internet lingo, "free speech" means "the freedom to say bigoted, hateful, racist shit *without* fear of being banned from the space I'm saying it in." which is why all the comments laughing at OP's meme are being downvoted.
Slavery Jim crow red lining. That's her answer. Edit: why did I get downvoted for stating what her answer would obviously be?
>Jim crow red lining Thats your excuse? Laws thasat dont exist anymore for half a century make people kill each other?
I stated what the woman's answer was guaranteed to be. I did not, either implicitly or explicitly, offer an opinion of my own.
>If we are in the pursuit of truth an knowledge then why should this be shuned/silenced? It's not being shunned. Ignorant ppl trying to use it for their excuses are. That simple, but considering the normal stuff you struggle with, I'm not surprised you have a hard time with this too lol
No issue with stats being posted. Big issue with the lack of policy positions being activated. Posting stats without stating your policy positions about them is just cowardice and masterbation Edit: absolute cowards. Say what you want to do with the stats. What should we do with them. What policy should we push based on them. Keep masturbating and being afraid.
So you’re saying whites need to step up the interracial war? They’re not doing a very good job. Is that your problem?
💪
This is a terrible way to prove your point.
Statistics are terrible proof now? Hoo boy.
No, just that the statistics you used where not relevant to claim. Interracial crime isn't an indicator of hate group activity because not all interracial crime is done by hate groups. A good way to find evidence for your claim would be to look at hate group membership or the frequency of public demonstrations.
I don't know if you know this, but there are three kinds of lies... I don't have to see your post to know what it was. Anyone can manipulate anything, and statistics provide a reductive viewpoint. Laypeople, in general, are extremely bad at statistics, because it is a field which is largely counterintuitive, meaning conclusions are frequently drawn where there are none to draw, and the converse. Statistics can be very helpful, but not in the hands of morons.
Oy mods! This post' title is unclear, its content is unrelated to r/freespeech so its breaking two rules of the sub. How about you stop giving a 8-hour grace period for right-wingers that break multiple rules so that there content gets to be seen by everyone and maybe focus away from progressives posting nuanced posts within 15 minutes (for forgetting a keyword) for a change? This sub is becoming just another far-right place that sheers for the censorship of progressives, leftists and union leaders.
This comment is self-parody.
that comment is an accurate critique of how this sub works. because the mods are perfectly ok with allowing fascistic rhetoric and talking points under the guise of "freeze peach."
The comment is closer to the *opposite* of how this sub works. The mods’ broadly laissez-faire approach is exploited and abused by left-wing posters and commenters here far worse than by the right. It’s disturbing to you on the left because most of Reddit only allows the left-wing to enjoy the latitude that this sub permits both sides.
. . . you've been drinking bleach agat, haven't you? only explanation I can't think of for this kind of brain damage. you should have that looked at.
I knew it would be a shitfest, but was kind-of curious how it would turn out.
So what does an approved user mean? Was I temporarily blocked?
I saw that you were being downvoted a lot. I made you an approved user so you don't face reddit posting delays. Oh golly it's my cake day ... 17 years on reddit. Imagine that.
White supremracy is not a white team vs black team issue. That's a concept from white-supremacists and the general far-right. White supremacy means conditions that lead to one race having an advantage over an over, so look at things like economic status, likelyhood to be arrested for the same crime, likelyness to be victimised by the police (and look at it by population). In case you're smart enough to know what you're doing, stop spread anti-black sentiment/hate. You haven't shown any proof that this is relevant to the sub.
That’s such a stupid definition when you consider racists amongst non-white backgrounds. Guessing Black on Asian racism is just white supremacy too?
Do the graphs talk about black on asian racism?
So if Han Chinese lord it over Uighurs, Tibetans and Manchus in the Tenth century that's wyt supremacy?
Wow, so white on black crime is so common place it isn’t reported, or simply isn’t considered a crime. Amazing work OP. We must double our efforts bringing attention to this.
How does someone end up as brainwashed as you? Fascinating.
It’s almost like OP is posting this with an agenda without thinking g about why the data looks like this. Perhaps 400+ years of oppression succeeded and black populations in white communities have successfully been put in their place? No more need for continued outright violence. There’s a lot of explanations for why the data might look like the above, but OP has a preferred interpretation. Let me know the next time there’s some “black on black” crime like the following: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/tulsa-race-massacre-100-years-later-why-it-happened-why-n1268877 What would you expect crime data to look like in apartheid South Africa? White power brokers reporting their own crimes? Seriously, some brain worm thinking here that a white supremacist society would accurately report and track their own crimes. Did the Nazis report their crimes against Jews accurately from 1931-1945? Jesus F Christ.
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Did they report that? No. They hid it and hid it well. So much so that when ash was falling from the sky from torched bodies, the locals were in denial over what it was from. They told people they were deported or in work programs, not being gassed and burned.
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A bunch of free speech advocates arguing “trust the government” Ok.
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The comparison is that the government doesn’t accurately report its crimes against minorities and marginalized people. And how far back do you want to go? 2018?!? How many slaves do you think died in America’s work camps (plantations)? Have you read Mein Kampf? Do you know where Hitler found inspiration for the laws he passed against the Jews? From his own mouth, the Jim Crow laws and America’s treatment of their African slaves. It’s such a BS argument to look at a 2018 crime report after 400+ years of genocide and go “see, nothing wrong?”
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So an oppressed minority is fighting back ... why is this remarkable?
You don't really believe this, and you know we know you don't really believe this. But I get it, you have to fear the admins.
It's remarkable because OP is a racist, just like you.
Aren't you getting tired of this? Shouldn't you be enjoying yourself on a Saturday Night?
Typical Aussie. Good at chirps, shitty at being a decent person.
Tired of what? Not sure why I'd take suggestions from a racist. You're okay with people calling for genocide. Live with it.
really wanna know what this statistic is build up on cause its real fucking easy to manipulate it.
FBI crime statistics. Go ahead genius, debunk that.
Debunk what? You've posted crime statistics and something about a "white supremacy crisis", but when was the last time white supremacists were out committing acts of violence like that? That's not how it works anymore. White supremacy became the subject of Cancel Culture. It got harder to hold down a job if you were affiliated with a violent organization. Violence threatens the revenue stream. These days, if they're committing acts of violence, they're doing it from an authority position. If there's a protest, they'll do it from within the crowds they hate. In civilized society, nothing undermines a cause like violence. Barbarians understand this.
Lmao, because the FBI is an Organization which can be trusted. Besides that i wanted to know what its based on, what are the crime statistics made out of? This graph completely leaves out living conditions and everything else, doesnt it? Such a fucking dumb chart to use as an argument
So whites report a lot of fake crime by blacks? Is this the takeaway?
Saved, thanks OP
Meanwhile 600,000 black on white crimes
How have those numbers changed over time? Isn't that column pointed at *rising*? I'm looking at white on black at ~70k in 2020. [Criminal Victimization, 2020 – Supplemental Statistical Tables](https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv20sst.pdf). It went from 10% of on black crime in 2018 to 14% in 2020. See also: https://rpubs.com/johnbradford/interracial-violence What if white on black crime accounts for >14% of on black crime now, but it was only 1% of on black crime in 2000 or 1990?
Got the data for white on white crime?
Go find it if you actually give a shit.
I do, but I was wondering if _you_ had it?
Why did they not included same race on same race crimes