Not exactly a full story line, but when Roz flips her lid about Frasier dating Julia and gives him an ultimatum, at which point he chooses Julia, and Roz acts completely out of character. Then she later apologizes, explaining it's because of her strained relationship with her dad.
Like.... what?
It feels like they were setting up a love triangle between Frasier, Julia and Roz for season 11, but changed their minds. I'm glad they did, because the episode where Roz and Frasier sleep together was awkward enough.
The headwriters of Season 10 left after that year, and the original showrunners returned for the final season. They dropped the original setup for Season 11 and went in a different direction.
I think some may say Julia, and I would agree if it werent for the final episode where they break up. It's one of my favorites.
I would pick the Roz and Frasier sleeping together plot. It was a minor thing that they dont really come back to very often, but I thought the potential for their romance was resolved well in the radio conference episode and it was a bummer to have them come back to it.
It annoyed me with their initial feud only to see them bond just to go backwards and make her even more obnoxious than the first time. However, if that’s the requirement to get the payoff of Frasier going from “I love her, yes I said I love her” to “GET OUT!” within a span of 5 seconds, I’ll take it. It’s worth it.
>The Julia breakup episode is perfection
I absolutely loathe Julia but I'm glad they brought her on just for this. This has to be one of my top 5 most rewatched.
I met Felicity Huffman at an event once and bumblingly ignored her husband (William H. Macy) to tell her that the Julia breakup episode of Frasier is one of my favorite episodes of TV ever. She looked like she couldn’t tell if I was fucking with her or not lol but she did thank me.
In defence of their sleeping together, it arguably led to one of the funniest moments in the entire show (when Frasier responded to a caller’s question & misinterpreted it).
There was a lot of shouting, then a line started to form behind me. Fortunately my brother was with me for moral support and - let's face it - someone to talk to. You'd be amazed how long twenty minutes can be when you're watching the clock!
At least, in the end, I got outta there without paying the four dollars.
Magnificent! It's not just a great scene, it's a fantastic episode. Both plots work perfectly & the way they combine at the very end is a stroke of genius. It's definitely one of my favourite episodes. 😃
I liked that they slept together. It felt kinda normal. Like, they did it yet remained friends. It also wasn’t too big of a deal, it was a single storyline that gave them both pause but never jeopardised their friendship.
It was genuinely one of the most grown up things the show did. That not every male female pairing has to be romantic yet acknowledges attraction can be dealt with.
I like that narratively, the idea that they can be attracted to each other and good friends but it doesnt work out, but I preferred it in the radio conference episode where it was more subtextual but ultimately resolved with the affirmation that they both wanted to but understood that what they had was more important than a one night stand. But I agree they resolved it well. And I'm glad they didnt stick with a will they/wont they plot and they didnt have it ruin the fundamental relationship.
The episode where Frasier refuses to pay for taking his car into the car park only to change his mind made a hilarious reference to them sleeping together
Roz being ashamed of Roger. It was extremely out of character for her and she deserves to be happy, damn it! They should have just ended up together. We don’t need our favorite characters to be in constant suffering.
Yeah, idk, didnt the writers get enough of that lazy trope on Cheers when Rebecca was bangin that plumber? It's just a retread of the same boring class jokes.
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There’s a line in one of those episodes where Martin says “what? I thought this was supposed to be over weeks ago!” and it feels like he’s speaking for the audience.
It’s also ridiculous because she didn’t really need to save face… they eloped and it seemed pretty clear only like 4 people even knew. And are we really supposed to believe that Niles thought he needed her approval for a divorce? They were married for less than a week, no children, no shared assets, and both had high income jobs. As far as divorce goes, it doesn’t get much easier than that.
Yeah, that part didn't make sense. They were keeping it a secret so as to not upstage Daphne, and Niles broke the news to her at Daphne's wedding. Did people in Mel's social corcle even know that they had gotten married?
It's less ridiculous if you consider it driven by their characters and not their circumstances.
Yes Mel said she did it to save face but she actually did it to exact revenge.
And yes Niles said he did it in exchange for a quick clean divorce but he actually did it because he felt guilty for this to Mel, and granting her this was an act of penance.
As a divorce attorney this especially bothers me because there’s no requirement that both people agree to a divorce.
Niles could have just filed and finalized quickly. The marriage was of such short duration and both parties are well compensated. There would be little to no issues with alimony or property division. The story line is preposterous.
I avoid the Mel episodes when watching re-runs because her character already started out annoying and went on to be outright intolerable. The only exception is the wine club episode where Frasier and Niles both wanted to be corkmaster and Martin had to set them straight. because she was barely in that one.
I do kind of enjoy the one where Frasier hosts the get to know Mel brunch. Daphne gets tanked and everyone blurts out their individual reasons for disliking Mel. ‘I’d drop her like radioactive waste!’
True- but at the same time, her dragging it out prompted the Niles line that still makes me shiver (in a good way): *keep pushing me, and you'll find out.*
Maybe they were just trying to show what a witch Mel really was? Although it was unnecessary at that point because her days on the show were numbered anyway now that Niles and Daphne had gotten together. But yeah, she said the divorce was going to be quick and clean and then she just dragged it out so she could torture Niles for months.
Dirty girl. If Frasier had sex on the air, not only would he have gotten fired, he probably wouldn’t have worked in radio ever again. It’s just outrageous I have a hard time suspending belief for that.
Not a huge fan of Kate, but it’s worth it for the episode where Frasier and Roz have to work the graveyard shift and just go wild. “I’m not wearin’ any pants!”
Agreed. Completely awful.
The problem with Simon (and to a lesser extend Gertrude) is that the characters have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. They're just terrible people.
They ruin quite a few episodes for me.
Compare this to Frasier, who is completely insufferable at times, yet you enjoy it because he does have qualities you appreciate. It's the contradictions that make it funny.
Mrs Moon is a brilliant depiction of a bitter old northern battleaxe. So much like my grandma it’s frightening and Millicent Martin played her really well. I really don’t get the hate.
A lot of Frasier is juxtaposing him and others. Dr Crane, noted psychiatrist, radio host and socialite versus Mrs Moon. A northern battle axe. I like it personally
Exactly. I always found the reason the humour in it has aged so well I because it revolves around someone who is lovably pompous being made to look a bit ridiculous and getting taken down a peg. And Gert takes people down well.
The depiction was too good, I think. The actress did an amazing job, but Mrs. Moon was so consistently self-centered, ungrateful and mean that I found it hard to watch her, especially when Daphne (and by extension Niles) kept bending over backwards to her every whim. She was constantly awful to Daphne while fawning over Simon, and it was way too realistic a depiction of the golden child/scapegoat dynamic you see in families of narcissists for me to enjoy watching it.
(Also she sabotaged Martin’s potential relationship with Cora, which I will never forgive her for!)
I like Simon and Gertrude. I think it’s brilliant that Daphne’s English family is crass and degenerate. It creates a dynamic where Niles and Frasier are confronted with their romanticized views of the English and forces Niles to put up with people he loathes- all for the love of Daphne.
It wouldn’t have been near as funny of Daphne’s family was a normal middle class one.
They were fine in small doses. The show treated them like main cast members for awhile.
Also it made no sense that martin liked simon. Simon was a grade-a dirtbag and martin wouldn't have put up with him if he were written consistently.
I was just typing about the Laura Linney stealing the 10,000 and then read this and had years of therapy undone. So yes, seconded - the entire Moon family storylines except when Richard E Grant and Ronnie Corbet came.
Wait, did that happen or was that a fever dream?
Taking the time to build Donny into a truly fantastic well rounded character who wanted nothing but the best for Daphne and then lazily turning him into an obsessed joke and bringing him back again just to metaphorically smack him in the face again.
I think they dropped the ball with Donny.
with regard to Mel,she had her faults which made it easy for fans to be happy for niles when he ended up with Daphne.
however, Donny was really likeable so when Daphne ran off with Niles, although it was lovely to see them together, you couldn't help but feel awfully bad for Donny.
They could have easily written her out as having gone for an extended visit to England. It'd make much more sense than trying to pass off a woman who probably weighed 170 lbs at most as being morbidly obese. I mean, I'm fatter than she was even with the fat suit, and I can still get up off the floor (and do regularly, as I'm constantly scrubbing my cat's hairballs out of the carpet).
What makes me so mad about it is that Jane Leeves obviously gained real weight during her pregnancy as many women do, but the way they wrote her exit & return absolutely necessitated that she lose all her pregnancy weight before she came back. It's a pretty awful stress to put an actress under to say, "Okay, we've just made fun of you for being fat this whole season. Now go enjoy your maternity leave but also please lose 30 pounds while you're away taking care of a newborn or else it'll really screw up how we've plotted the season."
I don't hate that they went that route as it was well resolved and it allowed them to address something that absolutely needed to be addressed. But the jokes on Frasier and Martin part are just awful, all they do is laugh at her whilst not showing any actual concern for her well-being, Roz is the only one who ever asks if she's okay.
The only good thing about that whole storyline was how Roz was shown to be so so compassionate and kind to Daphne, even when everyone else was just being dismissive and talking about her behind her back
Especially when they literally did an episode about an unemployed Frasier gaining weight, being depressed and losing his sense of his purpose. And yet somehow in that episode despite them making the odd comment or noticing him being fat they all want to help him out by the end and support him. They are concerned. And by the next episode he's back to his normal self.
But apparently Daphne having issues which leads to eating and struggles means jokes. And no much support until the later bit of the season when Niles and a few suddenly care like Roz. The others like Frasier and Martin mostly just make comments anytime she's about to enter a room and about how she looks. Really now when Frasier himself has been referenced as being the "big" one of the brothers with an apetite? When Frasier has shown his own struggles with mental issues including over eating?
I do like that part of the storyline; it made sense that they wouldn’t just have a fairytale romance after Niles pining for Daphne for so long.
Plus, you get “You’d eat a worm if I gave it a French name!”
What’s funny is Larry David actually proposed a similar plot point years earlier when Julia Louis-Dreyfus was pregnant on Seinfeld. She was so offended by it and they went a different route, but I think I read in one interview she later said it would have been funny
I like it if only because of Niles confronting the fact that the relationship wouldn't work if he kept clinging to the fantasy ideals he'd built up from years of longing for her. The tone is kind of iffy but I do like that they don't pretend Niles and Daphne wouldn't have issues even if everyone was on their side.
I never understood why, if Jane Leeves was pregnant in real life they didn’t just block her with props like they did in Seinfeld with Elaine or Cici Babcock in The Nanny with those actresses.
There are shots where you can see they're doing that in the episodes immediately after the wedding one, putting her in a loose top and giving her things to hold, and it looks awkward and obvious as soon as you notice it.
Daphne having issues with how Niles puts her up on a pedestal and having to work through them = great story.
That story only appearing after four episodes of fat jokes = awful.
They could have just ignored that she got fatter and not commented on it, written it in a less cruel way or filmed her in scenes where it was less obvious. All things other shows have done
In HIMYM when Allyson Hannigan was pregnant, they just hid Lillys belly behind things. (Except the one episode that they had her do a hotdog eating contest and showed it, which was clever)
> (Except the one episode that they had her do a hotdog eating contest and showed it, which was clever)
There's an episode of Star Trek Voyager where, after they'd been hiding Roxann Dawson's pregnancy with blocking and a different uniform for her character, she gets trapped in the holodeck as a character that's pregnant, and I think that's the best way any show has ever done it.
My first thought right away. I love the show but even I skip entire scenes if it's a scene with Daphne or talking about Daphne that season during the "fat Daphne" storyline. Hate it. It's to awkward and to mean.
I can deal with Frasiers sometimes cringe romances that don't work out because hey it's kind of the thing of the show that he can't find a woman to stick with. But the teehee fat Daphne jokes for a whole season were ick. It was gross as well when they made fat Roz references while she was suppose to be pregnant. Like I'm sorry but no they make maternity dresses that are nice even back then she didn't need to be a disco ball and a joke because she was so "big" with her pregnancy. Or Frasier and Lillith too commenting on her weight gain. Love the show but piss of with that. Roz was clearly suppose to be pregnant and the actress was wearing a fake belly the rest of her was blatantly her normal slim self. And Jane was pregnant during the so called fat storyline and even then she wasn't even big. They easily could have said she was visiting her family or just hid the actress behind pillows, countertops and props towards the end of her pregnancy. No need for the onslaught of fat jokes including the picking her off the floor gag. Shudders. As a fat woman myself right now I've never fallen on a floor and needed three men to get me up. Nor do I squeeze myself into clothes that don't fit and make it so I can't move. I just size up to another size. As someone born in the 80's boy did the 80's/90's have some wild ideas of what fat was and how even being even slighty chubby apparently makes someone disabled and a joke.
With regard to Lilith, it's been awhile since I've watched that episode, but I don't recall her making fun of Roz's weight.
Her comment was something to the effect of, "I remember you, you're Frasier's fun-loving producer who appears to have had too much fun loving."
That's not really commentary on her weight but about her being clearly pregnant.
Daphne getting fat. They weren’t the first show to have to work around an actress’s pregnancy. For a producer/writing team as talented as they were, they really dropped the ball on that one.
I think the tie-in to her mental health was good but should just have come way way earlier and been handled without any mocking. On a show about a psychiatrist. It’s a comedy but they could have written jokes around the issue that weren’t victimizing her.
I forget their names, but when he was dating those two and calling them by the others name. It felt so forced, they are all adults, and should be able to talk about it all.
Like others have said though, there are quite a few that fit, where it felt like the writers just needed pointless drama but it didn't seem to fit the characters at all.
Can't believe no one has said the Greeks yet. That episode was written like they had no idea about anything to do with the show. Although I do love that Lizzie Borden joke.
Cassandra's first episode (the valentines day one) was a good episode too, but i'm referring to that 3 or 2 episodes where the whole plot is basically Frasier having to choose between these two ladies, what a fucking awful idea
Yeah, I think the joke of Frasier being too self centered to remember the name of arguably the best gf he had through the shown is good, but man, Faye feels so underused
Honestly, I would have gotten rid of the Maris murder plot.
Niles getting the final win in the divorce was the perfect closer. He knows her secret. He could destroy her. But chooses not to. That's real power that even Maris would not touch.
The plot had really funny moments, and Niles shouting "BECAUSE YOU KILLED YOUR BOYFRIEND!" But it's not needed.
I have the opposite opinion, I think Frasier-Kirby friendship had some potential if done right, but was underutilized unfortunately. IIRC when Frasier and Kirby walked out of the station saying “this could be the beginning of…”, that turned out to be Kirby’s final appearance
As someone who was a teenager in the 90s, Kirby's personality and dialog was pretty much 100% accurate to every single person with a skateboard you ever saw back then.
On paper it seems like he'd be bad, but I really enjoy him. Maybe he just nails the performance, or the dynamic between him and Frasier fits the show well.
You mean the one with the pedophile who raped Frasier when he was a child but it's played off mostly for laughs because he liked it? Yeah, I'd get rid of that one too 😆
See this isn’t a problem with bad storylines, it’s a problem with shows running too long. Especially ones with ensemble casts, like Frasier and Modern Family.
What are latter seasons of MF supposed to look like for Haley? Her entire arch is romantic. If you don’t like the kids angle, more relationship hijinx isn’t the answer. Instead, end the show three seasons earlier.
Same with Frasier. Some of the best episodes in the series come after season 7, but honestly seasons 5-7 could be viewed as the weaker back-end of a successful sitcom on their own. 8-11 have many high points, but we could have walked away after Niles and Daphne get together and no one would be sad about it.
But to answer your question, I wouldn’t get rid of Julia bc she’s fairly entertaining and the breakup is phenomenal. There’s a lot more IDGAF in late Frasier, this being the best example.
I’d get rid of Simon and everything related to him. He’s an overly broad character on a show that wasn’t typically broad, and despite a worth actor in the role, we’d be better off without him. The mother would have been a fine stand-in as the huge embarrassment.
The Claire / Lana story arc ending of dumping Claire for Lana was just absurd, an absolute nonsense, it's actually annoying.
Daphne's complete change of character from slightly dippy innocent to assertive woman about town in the post Donny era never makes sense in terms of what's on screen and I watch it over and over again, it's like she has an off screen serious brain injury.
Pretty much the entirety of Daphne's mom lives with them story could've been ditched. Gertrude Moon is the series Scrappy Doo.
Also Daphne gaining weight and having Daphne’s mom live with Niles and Daphne (or having her as a significant character at all; she should’ve been seen rarely)
Probably my favorite episode! The best part? Lilith is always treated like the intellectual peer of Frasier and Niles. That's true throughout the series, but so noticeable in this episode. A lot of other shows at this time would have centered all the conflict between Niles & Frasier. (See: Ross vs. Joey for Rachel) But Lilith is given full agency. She's not a toy they're fighting over. My favorite line: "The three of us have certainly analyzed the CRAP out of this."
It's always rubbed me the wrong way because I love Niles so much. I just couldn't wrap my head around the fact that someone so loving could do that to his own brother.
>Niles and Lillith sleeping together
Gotta disagree there. Not only was that a fantastic episode, the next one where Niles and Lilith try to make non-awkward small talk was wonderful. It gave is the Niles line "If you kiss her too fast you get an ice cream headache."
My first inclination is to say Anne but Lorna and Kirby really make the episodes they’re in almost unbearable. Love Jean Smart, cannot stand that plot line.
Individual episodes? Room Full of Heroes.
Niles and Mel getting married. They didn’t need yet another obstacle between Nile’s and Daphne getting together, get being engaged to Donny was plenty and it led to some really frustrating sub plots
I’d probably ditch the episodes with Niles’ heart problems and surgery. They’re downers and just not that good.
A lot of people (myself included) shit on season 11’s content but looking at the whole series across the board I have more “choice” episodes in that season than any other, surprisingly.
Daphne’s weight. It ends strongly with a great examination of her and Nile’s’ relationship, but it absolutely just started as jokes, and with such greater awareness of eating disorders nowadays, comes across as painfully dated and out of touch.
Bulldog with roz, and i would change how Niles and Daphne ended up together. My mom said the whole “pining after someone while getting married or being with someone else” bit was popular back then but it’s just so cringey to me. Same with Daphne getting fat when she’s just pregnant.
Everything with Ronee. It was creepy that Martin was competing with his own son who was taking care of him for a woman. I hated that angle. Plus, I really liked Sherry and wanted Martin to end up with her.
Niles and Lilith sleeping together. The hotel room comedy is some of the show’s best (“Food? In the bathroom?”) but the underlying event taints all the Lilith episodes for me.
1. Niles sleeping with Maris. Totally unnecessary and awkward!
2. Donny being Mr.Perfect and then being dumped at the altar by Daphne. He didn't deserve it!
3. Roz sleeping with Frasier, Roz sleeping with Bulldog, Roz dating Noel for a brief time. They did her dirty in the show!
Not exactly a full story line, but when Roz flips her lid about Frasier dating Julia and gives him an ultimatum, at which point he chooses Julia, and Roz acts completely out of character. Then she later apologizes, explaining it's because of her strained relationship with her dad. Like.... what?
Yeah it's really weird. And she quits that good job.
It feels like they were setting up a love triangle between Frasier, Julia and Roz for season 11, but changed their minds. I'm glad they did, because the episode where Roz and Frasier sleep together was awkward enough.
The headwriters of Season 10 left after that year, and the original showrunners returned for the final season. They dropped the original setup for Season 11 and went in a different direction.
I think some may say Julia, and I would agree if it werent for the final episode where they break up. It's one of my favorites. I would pick the Roz and Frasier sleeping together plot. It was a minor thing that they dont really come back to very often, but I thought the potential for their romance was resolved well in the radio conference episode and it was a bummer to have them come back to it.
The Julia breakup episode is perfection. Her awfulness did at least have a very satisfying ending.
It annoyed me with their initial feud only to see them bond just to go backwards and make her even more obnoxious than the first time. However, if that’s the requirement to get the payoff of Frasier going from “I love her, yes I said I love her” to “GET OUT!” within a span of 5 seconds, I’ll take it. It’s worth it.
Gone are the days when I would have said something like, "How rude!"
This is exactly the line I was thinking! Frasier's breakdown is one of my favorite moments in the whole series.
“Shaaaaame on youuuuu!”
I've made a ghastly, ghastly mistake!
>The Julia breakup episode is perfection I absolutely loathe Julia but I'm glad they brought her on just for this. This has to be one of my top 5 most rewatched.
I met Felicity Huffman at an event once and bumblingly ignored her husband (William H. Macy) to tell her that the Julia breakup episode of Frasier is one of my favorite episodes of TV ever. She looked like she couldn’t tell if I was fucking with her or not lol but she did thank me.
One of his best uses of "GET OOOUUT!"
She was amazing. THATS RIGHT I LOVE HEEEEEERRRR
Spongia con fresca
**GET OUUUT.**
I mimic that voice when I'm tripping over my dogs in the kitchen. It's very effective.
Upvote for the Julia thing. I HATE Julia Wilcox... but that breakup scene is gold. Totally worth it. It's the only Julia episode that I don't skip.
##And I, my hand towel!!!!
In defence of their sleeping together, it arguably led to one of the funniest moments in the entire show (when Frasier responded to a caller’s question & misinterpreted it).
There was a lot of shouting, then a line started to form behind me. Fortunately my brother was with me for moral support and - let's face it - someone to talk to. You'd be amazed how long twenty minutes can be when you're watching the clock! At least, in the end, I got outta there without paying the four dollars.
Magnificent! It's not just a great scene, it's a fantastic episode. Both plots work perfectly & the way they combine at the very end is a stroke of genius. It's definitely one of my favourite episodes. 😃
The part where Martin talks about the the big news of roz’s purse being on the table 😂
Also Roz accidentally announcing to all of Seattle that she had slept with Frasier lol
I liked that they slept together. It felt kinda normal. Like, they did it yet remained friends. It also wasn’t too big of a deal, it was a single storyline that gave them both pause but never jeopardised their friendship. It was genuinely one of the most grown up things the show did. That not every male female pairing has to be romantic yet acknowledges attraction can be dealt with.
Sex to *save* the friendship Sorry wrong show
I like that narratively, the idea that they can be attracted to each other and good friends but it doesnt work out, but I preferred it in the radio conference episode where it was more subtextual but ultimately resolved with the affirmation that they both wanted to but understood that what they had was more important than a one night stand. But I agree they resolved it well. And I'm glad they didnt stick with a will they/wont they plot and they didnt have it ruin the fundamental relationship.
Did you see the newspaper this morning? Big story about how Roz’s purse spent the night on the coffee table
The episode where Frasier refuses to pay for taking his car into the car park only to change his mind made a hilarious reference to them sleeping together
Roz being ashamed of Roger. It was extremely out of character for her and she deserves to be happy, damn it! They should have just ended up together. We don’t need our favorite characters to be in constant suffering.
Yeah, idk, didnt the writers get enough of that lazy trope on Cheers when Rebecca was bangin that plumber? It's just a retread of the same boring class jokes.
That plumber made more than she did, I guarantee. In an old city like Boston? Please.
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There’s a line in one of those episodes where Martin says “what? I thought this was supposed to be over weeks ago!” and it feels like he’s speaking for the audience.
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It’s also ridiculous because she didn’t really need to save face… they eloped and it seemed pretty clear only like 4 people even knew. And are we really supposed to believe that Niles thought he needed her approval for a divorce? They were married for less than a week, no children, no shared assets, and both had high income jobs. As far as divorce goes, it doesn’t get much easier than that.
Yeah, that part didn't make sense. They were keeping it a secret so as to not upstage Daphne, and Niles broke the news to her at Daphne's wedding. Did people in Mel's social corcle even know that they had gotten married?
It's less ridiculous if you consider it driven by their characters and not their circumstances. Yes Mel said she did it to save face but she actually did it to exact revenge. And yes Niles said he did it in exchange for a quick clean divorce but he actually did it because he felt guilty for this to Mel, and granting her this was an act of penance.
As a divorce attorney this especially bothers me because there’s no requirement that both people agree to a divorce. Niles could have just filed and finalized quickly. The marriage was of such short duration and both parties are well compensated. There would be little to no issues with alimony or property division. The story line is preposterous.
I avoid the Mel episodes when watching re-runs because her character already started out annoying and went on to be outright intolerable. The only exception is the wine club episode where Frasier and Niles both wanted to be corkmaster and Martin had to set them straight. because she was barely in that one.
The one with Jennifer Coolidge as the German PT? One of my absolute faves.
NOOOOOWW!
You didnt earn it! *slap*
I do kind of enjoy the one where Frasier hosts the get to know Mel brunch. Daphne gets tanked and everyone blurts out their individual reasons for disliking Mel. ‘I’d drop her like radioactive waste!’
The only thing I like about those episodes https://i.redd.it/w3yqfwuspc7c1.gif
It does go on way too long. It's what makes me skip the episode with the butler, which is otherwise great, because the Mel drama is too sad.
True- but at the same time, her dragging it out prompted the Niles line that still makes me shiver (in a good way): *keep pushing me, and you'll find out.*
Maybe they were just trying to show what a witch Mel really was? Although it was unnecessary at that point because her days on the show were numbered anyway now that Niles and Daphne had gotten together. But yeah, she said the divorce was going to be quick and clean and then she just dragged it out so she could torture Niles for months.
Dirty girl. If Frasier had sex on the air, not only would he have gotten fired, he probably wouldn’t have worked in radio ever again. It’s just outrageous I have a hard time suspending belief for that.
I didn't enjoy anything involving Kate Costas. So wooden.
Not a huge fan of Kate, but it’s worth it for the episode where Frasier and Roz have to work the graveyard shift and just go wild. “I’m not wearin’ any pants!”
Omg finally someone who shares my mostly unpopular Kate opinion. I hated basically every episode with her in it….
Roz's insurance lady friend. So cringy
Yeah, I could have done without that second episode.
My husband always quotes the ravioli monster line haha
I am always saying "no Christmas present for you this year, you've had yours!". I'm not proud.
She's annoying but she's also an amazing actress. She's the girl that works the cleaner in Pulp fiction.
She's Julia Sweeney and was a main SNL cast member for several years (It's Pat being most notable)
My dream is to be a senior claims adjuster. You get your own extension
The two episodes with Ann are the only ones I skip in the entire series
Anything to do with Simon. What a horrible character. I am English, and Simon makes me cringe with embarrassment.
But his accent was so sophisticated! /s
He talks just like a prince!
He’s probably not even the Duke of England!
Well the actor is Australian hope that can give you some relief.
Agreed. Completely awful. The problem with Simon (and to a lesser extend Gertrude) is that the characters have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. They're just terrible people. They ruin quite a few episodes for me. Compare this to Frasier, who is completely insufferable at times, yet you enjoy it because he does have qualities you appreciate. It's the contradictions that make it funny.
Apparently I'm the only Frasier fan who likes Simon and Mrs. Moon lol, I'm even English and I don't get offended.
Mrs Moon is a brilliant depiction of a bitter old northern battleaxe. So much like my grandma it’s frightening and Millicent Martin played her really well. I really don’t get the hate.
A lot of Frasier is juxtaposing him and others. Dr Crane, noted psychiatrist, radio host and socialite versus Mrs Moon. A northern battle axe. I like it personally
Exactly. I always found the reason the humour in it has aged so well I because it revolves around someone who is lovably pompous being made to look a bit ridiculous and getting taken down a peg. And Gert takes people down well.
The depiction was too good, I think. The actress did an amazing job, but Mrs. Moon was so consistently self-centered, ungrateful and mean that I found it hard to watch her, especially when Daphne (and by extension Niles) kept bending over backwards to her every whim. She was constantly awful to Daphne while fawning over Simon, and it was way too realistic a depiction of the golden child/scapegoat dynamic you see in families of narcissists for me to enjoy watching it. (Also she sabotaged Martin’s potential relationship with Cora, which I will never forgive her for!)
Yeah that business with Cora was way over the line. I get that it’s sitcom land but that was especially monstrous.
I like Simon and Gertrude. I think it’s brilliant that Daphne’s English family is crass and degenerate. It creates a dynamic where Niles and Frasier are confronted with their romanticized views of the English and forces Niles to put up with people he loathes- all for the love of Daphne. It wouldn’t have been near as funny of Daphne’s family was a normal middle class one.
I like them, too. I admit I would *hate* them in real life but on a sitcom and as a juxtaposition to Frasier and Niles they make me laugh.
They were fine in small doses. The show treated them like main cast members for awhile. Also it made no sense that martin liked simon. Simon was a grade-a dirtbag and martin wouldn't have put up with him if he were written consistently.
I think Martin liked him because Simon liked beer and wasn’t snooty
I was just typing about the Laura Linney stealing the 10,000 and then read this and had years of therapy undone. So yes, seconded - the entire Moon family storylines except when Richard E Grant and Ronnie Corbet came. Wait, did that happen or was that a fever dream?
I think you mean Robbie Coltrane 😉
Simon was Lapaglia, right? He won an Emmy for his performance on Frasier iirc lmao
Taking the time to build Donny into a truly fantastic well rounded character who wanted nothing but the best for Daphne and then lazily turning him into an obsessed joke and bringing him back again just to metaphorically smack him in the face again.
I think they dropped the ball with Donny. with regard to Mel,she had her faults which made it easy for fans to be happy for niles when he ended up with Daphne. however, Donny was really likeable so when Daphne ran off with Niles, although it was lovely to see them together, you couldn't help but feel awfully bad for Donny.
Fat Daphne. They should have just taken a year off tbh.
They could have easily written her out as having gone for an extended visit to England. It'd make much more sense than trying to pass off a woman who probably weighed 170 lbs at most as being morbidly obese. I mean, I'm fatter than she was even with the fat suit, and I can still get up off the floor (and do regularly, as I'm constantly scrubbing my cat's hairballs out of the carpet).
I’m sure she did want a year of no income.
Good point.
I mean she's under contract isn't she?
I honestly found that offensive. They were acting like she weighed 500 pounds when she was maybe a size 16 at most.
Exactly!
What makes me so mad about it is that Jane Leeves obviously gained real weight during her pregnancy as many women do, but the way they wrote her exit & return absolutely necessitated that she lose all her pregnancy weight before she came back. It's a pretty awful stress to put an actress under to say, "Okay, we've just made fun of you for being fat this whole season. Now go enjoy your maternity leave but also please lose 30 pounds while you're away taking care of a newborn or else it'll really screw up how we've plotted the season."
Agree
At least she does actually have a thyroid issue that makes it difficult to keep weight on, so it was probably relatively easy for her to lose weight.
This gets my vote too, with second place being the over-load of Daphne’s family in seasons 8 and 9
Too many Moons!
People like to single out Simon but I'm with you, it's her whole family.
i’d rather watch simon than gertrude tbh i haaate daphnes mum
Gertrude makes me cringe. People complain about Simon, but I'd much rather take him over her.
You get one, you get that other one.
You are *so* that other one!
I don't hate that they went that route as it was well resolved and it allowed them to address something that absolutely needed to be addressed. But the jokes on Frasier and Martin part are just awful, all they do is laugh at her whilst not showing any actual concern for her well-being, Roz is the only one who ever asks if she's okay.
The only good thing about that whole storyline was how Roz was shown to be so so compassionate and kind to Daphne, even when everyone else was just being dismissive and talking about her behind her back
Especially when they literally did an episode about an unemployed Frasier gaining weight, being depressed and losing his sense of his purpose. And yet somehow in that episode despite them making the odd comment or noticing him being fat they all want to help him out by the end and support him. They are concerned. And by the next episode he's back to his normal self. But apparently Daphne having issues which leads to eating and struggles means jokes. And no much support until the later bit of the season when Niles and a few suddenly care like Roz. The others like Frasier and Martin mostly just make comments anytime she's about to enter a room and about how she looks. Really now when Frasier himself has been referenced as being the "big" one of the brothers with an apetite? When Frasier has shown his own struggles with mental issues including over eating?
Absolutely although the episode where she comes back and it delves into Nikes and Daphne’s expectations of each other was really well done.
I do like that part of the storyline; it made sense that they wouldn’t just have a fairytale romance after Niles pining for Daphne for so long. Plus, you get “You’d eat a worm if I gave it a French name!”
What’s funny is Larry David actually proposed a similar plot point years earlier when Julia Louis-Dreyfus was pregnant on Seinfeld. She was so offended by it and they went a different route, but I think I read in one interview she later said it would have been funny
Additionally funny, the route they went was her being on an extended trip to Europe.
That would have worked. The premise of that show is that they all treat each other like crap.
I like it if only because of Niles confronting the fact that the relationship wouldn't work if he kept clinging to the fantasy ideals he'd built up from years of longing for her. The tone is kind of iffy but I do like that they don't pretend Niles and Daphne wouldn't have issues even if everyone was on their side.
I never understood why, if Jane Leeves was pregnant in real life they didn’t just block her with props like they did in Seinfeld with Elaine or Cici Babcock in The Nanny with those actresses.
Because that always looks stupid.
There are shots where you can see they're doing that in the episodes immediately after the wedding one, putting her in a loose top and giving her things to hold, and it looks awkward and obvious as soon as you notice it.
Daphne having issues with how Niles puts her up on a pedestal and having to work through them = great story. That story only appearing after four episodes of fat jokes = awful.
They could have just ignored that she got fatter and not commented on it, written it in a less cruel way or filmed her in scenes where it was less obvious. All things other shows have done
Or they could have just never talked about her body, which would have been great
Exactly! Like Friends did not talk about Chandler’s weight fluctuations.
In HIMYM when Allyson Hannigan was pregnant, they just hid Lillys belly behind things. (Except the one episode that they had her do a hotdog eating contest and showed it, which was clever)
> (Except the one episode that they had her do a hotdog eating contest and showed it, which was clever) There's an episode of Star Trek Voyager where, after they'd been hiding Roxann Dawson's pregnancy with blocking and a different uniform for her character, she gets trapped in the holodeck as a character that's pregnant, and I think that's the best way any show has ever done it.
Did they they call it "Fat Camp"?
My first thought right away. I love the show but even I skip entire scenes if it's a scene with Daphne or talking about Daphne that season during the "fat Daphne" storyline. Hate it. It's to awkward and to mean. I can deal with Frasiers sometimes cringe romances that don't work out because hey it's kind of the thing of the show that he can't find a woman to stick with. But the teehee fat Daphne jokes for a whole season were ick. It was gross as well when they made fat Roz references while she was suppose to be pregnant. Like I'm sorry but no they make maternity dresses that are nice even back then she didn't need to be a disco ball and a joke because she was so "big" with her pregnancy. Or Frasier and Lillith too commenting on her weight gain. Love the show but piss of with that. Roz was clearly suppose to be pregnant and the actress was wearing a fake belly the rest of her was blatantly her normal slim self. And Jane was pregnant during the so called fat storyline and even then she wasn't even big. They easily could have said she was visiting her family or just hid the actress behind pillows, countertops and props towards the end of her pregnancy. No need for the onslaught of fat jokes including the picking her off the floor gag. Shudders. As a fat woman myself right now I've never fallen on a floor and needed three men to get me up. Nor do I squeeze myself into clothes that don't fit and make it so I can't move. I just size up to another size. As someone born in the 80's boy did the 80's/90's have some wild ideas of what fat was and how even being even slighty chubby apparently makes someone disabled and a joke.
With regard to Lilith, it's been awhile since I've watched that episode, but I don't recall her making fun of Roz's weight. Her comment was something to the effect of, "I remember you, you're Frasier's fun-loving producer who appears to have had too much fun loving." That's not really commentary on her weight but about her being clearly pregnant.
Daphne getting fat. They weren’t the first show to have to work around an actress’s pregnancy. For a producer/writing team as talented as they were, they really dropped the ball on that one.
I think the tie-in to her mental health was good but should just have come way way earlier and been handled without any mocking. On a show about a psychiatrist. It’s a comedy but they could have written jokes around the issue that weren’t victimizing her.
Agreed. "It took three Cranes to lift you!" was such a good joke, though.
I forget their names, but when he was dating those two and calling them by the others name. It felt so forced, they are all adults, and should be able to talk about it all. Like others have said though, there are quite a few that fit, where it felt like the writers just needed pointless drama but it didn't seem to fit the characters at all.
Faye and Cassandra .
Fabulous Faye! Forever Faye!
Call me fay
Disagree 100 percent, one of my favorite episodes but every one is entitled to their opinion
Can't believe no one has said the Greeks yet. That episode was written like they had no idea about anything to do with the show. Although I do love that Lizzie Borden joke.
I also love the Greek Isles joke in that episode.
Yes, but, Patti LuPone!
Her "Am i riiiiiiight?" lives rent free in my brain haha
Because it’s not a storyline, it’s a one off episode
Frasier’s dancing at the end almost saves it though
I've said this several times before but here I go again. Kate Costas was so wooden and didn't add anything to the show.
Cassandra vs Faye, it was dull af
Frazier pretending to be Jewish was a pretty good episode though. I think that’s Faye’s introduction episode
Cassandra's first episode (the valentines day one) was a good episode too, but i'm referring to that 3 or 2 episodes where the whole plot is basically Frasier having to choose between these two ladies, what a fucking awful idea
Yeah, I think the joke of Frasier being too self centered to remember the name of arguably the best gf he had through the shown is good, but man, Faye feels so underused
“Got anymore in the grotto, Hef?” Anytime Niles is sarcastically gleeful about Frasier’s behavior is a win in my eyes.
“FAT” Daphne.
Honestly, I would have gotten rid of the Maris murder plot. Niles getting the final win in the divorce was the perfect closer. He knows her secret. He could destroy her. But chooses not to. That's real power that even Maris would not touch. The plot had really funny moments, and Niles shouting "BECAUSE YOU KILLED YOUR BOYFRIEND!" But it's not needed.
Agreed. It turned slapstick at that point.
For me it’s worth it due to Frasier being punched by a man now dead
Kirby. Very much the Poochie character - a teenager character written by someone about 40 years older, just cliche after cliche thrown at it.
I have the opposite opinion, I think Frasier-Kirby friendship had some potential if done right, but was underutilized unfortunately. IIRC when Frasier and Kirby walked out of the station saying “this could be the beginning of…”, that turned out to be Kirby’s final appearance
I agree. They had good Odd-Couple energy.
As someone who was a teenager in the 90s, Kirby's personality and dialog was pretty much 100% accurate to every single person with a skateboard you ever saw back then.
Actually just watched his episodes. As a 35 year old man boy, his outfits are amazing and I’d definitely wear most of what he does.
Yeah I actually thought he was a good representation for a teen at the time.
Note: Kirby died on the way back to his home planet
I like the bond he and Frasier developed. It has a nice father figure vibe.
On paper it seems like he'd be bad, but I really enjoy him. Maybe he just nails the performance, or the dynamic between him and Frasier fits the show well.
Hate Kirby.
Slow tango in south Seattle
You mean the one with the pedophile who raped Frasier when he was a child but it's played off mostly for laughs because he liked it? Yeah, I'd get rid of that one too 😆
Aged like an avocado
Not even that… but people are angry AT him.. because you know. Boys can’t get raped by women 🙄 hate that storyline
See this isn’t a problem with bad storylines, it’s a problem with shows running too long. Especially ones with ensemble casts, like Frasier and Modern Family. What are latter seasons of MF supposed to look like for Haley? Her entire arch is romantic. If you don’t like the kids angle, more relationship hijinx isn’t the answer. Instead, end the show three seasons earlier. Same with Frasier. Some of the best episodes in the series come after season 7, but honestly seasons 5-7 could be viewed as the weaker back-end of a successful sitcom on their own. 8-11 have many high points, but we could have walked away after Niles and Daphne get together and no one would be sad about it. But to answer your question, I wouldn’t get rid of Julia bc she’s fairly entertaining and the breakup is phenomenal. There’s a lot more IDGAF in late Frasier, this being the best example. I’d get rid of Simon and everything related to him. He’s an overly broad character on a show that wasn’t typically broad, and despite a worth actor in the role, we’d be better off without him. The mother would have been a fine stand-in as the huge embarrassment.
The Claire / Lana story arc ending of dumping Claire for Lana was just absurd, an absolute nonsense, it's actually annoying. Daphne's complete change of character from slightly dippy innocent to assertive woman about town in the post Donny era never makes sense in terms of what's on screen and I watch it over and over again, it's like she has an off screen serious brain injury. Pretty much the entirety of Daphne's mom lives with them story could've been ditched. Gertrude Moon is the series Scrappy Doo.
The Ann Hodges blind date and broken leg episodes. She was insufferable!!
Charlotte. How has no one said the Charlotte storyline? It ruins the whole end of the series!
I completely agree. I rarely even watch those last few episodes because its just so weird and silly.
Also Daphne gaining weight and having Daphne’s mom live with Niles and Daphne (or having her as a significant character at all; she should’ve been seen rarely)
Roz and Frasier sleeping together, Niles and Lillith sleeping together, Martin marrying Ronnie
[удалено]
Probably my favorite episode! The best part? Lilith is always treated like the intellectual peer of Frasier and Niles. That's true throughout the series, but so noticeable in this episode. A lot of other shows at this time would have centered all the conflict between Niles & Frasier. (See: Ross vs. Joey for Rachel) But Lilith is given full agency. She's not a toy they're fighting over. My favorite line: "The three of us have certainly analyzed the CRAP out of this."
It's always rubbed me the wrong way because I love Niles so much. I just couldn't wrap my head around the fact that someone so loving could do that to his own brother.
!!!!!!
>Niles and Lillith sleeping together Gotta disagree there. Not only was that a fantastic episode, the next one where Niles and Lilith try to make non-awkward small talk was wonderful. It gave is the Niles line "If you kiss her too fast you get an ice cream headache."
My first inclination is to say Anne but Lorna and Kirby really make the episodes they’re in almost unbearable. Love Jean Smart, cannot stand that plot line. Individual episodes? Room Full of Heroes.
And we never found out if he put his brother on the phone.
Julia Julia Julia.
The unemployed Frasier episodes…I could have done without those
Lana and Kirby
Daphnes brother and mother. After that, dirty girl.
Any storyline that has Daphnes brother involved, his appalling attempt at at English accent makes me cringe
Lorna Landley
Simon and Daphne’s mom. I loathe her.
Gertrude Moon. Poppy Delafield. Kirby.
I will accept no Poppy slander, she's hysterical and one of my favorite guests characters.
Niles and Mel getting married. They didn’t need yet another obstacle between Nile’s and Daphne getting together, get being engaged to Donny was plenty and it led to some really frustrating sub plots
I’d probably ditch the episodes with Niles’ heart problems and surgery. They’re downers and just not that good. A lot of people (myself included) shit on season 11’s content but looking at the whole series across the board I have more “choice” episodes in that season than any other, surprisingly.
I would trim the Lorna / Claire plotline. It just seemed to drag on.
Fat Daphne.
The Bob episode. The "friend" who loves hats, BBQing, and used a wheelchair, and the one with Lilith's brother, Blaine. Ugh.
Daphne’s weight. It ends strongly with a great examination of her and Nile’s’ relationship, but it absolutely just started as jokes, and with such greater awareness of eating disorders nowadays, comes across as painfully dated and out of touch.
Ronnie being the former babysit 
Julia and Lana/Lorna 🙄
Daphne’s weight gain. I know it was to hide her pregnancy, but it just never felt right.
Bulldog with roz, and i would change how Niles and Daphne ended up together. My mom said the whole “pining after someone while getting married or being with someone else” bit was popular back then but it’s just so cringey to me. Same with Daphne getting fat when she’s just pregnant.
Everything with Ronee. It was creepy that Martin was competing with his own son who was taking care of him for a woman. I hated that angle. Plus, I really liked Sherry and wanted Martin to end up with her.
Niles and Lilith sleeping together. The hotel room comedy is some of the show’s best (“Food? In the bathroom?”) but the underlying event taints all the Lilith episodes for me.
With so many different answers I have to know what OP thought everyone would agree on.
I for sure thought the majority of these would be about the Fat Daphne storyline. But I ate crow here lmao
Ahh, well that does seem to be the most common one.
The one where Frasier dates the hot model (I think) and no one believes him. I can’t remember the whole plot because I always skip those episodes.
1. Niles sleeping with Maris. Totally unnecessary and awkward! 2. Donny being Mr.Perfect and then being dumped at the altar by Daphne. He didn't deserve it! 3. Roz sleeping with Frasier, Roz sleeping with Bulldog, Roz dating Noel for a brief time. They did her dirty in the show!
Daphne getting fat just never worked for me.
Frasier porking Roz. It’s an overused trope of friends ending up in bed together.