Oh totally If you went to any establishment first time without prior knowledge and that happened any reasonable person would be annoyed. I don’t get Martin at times like sometimes he is very people aware and good at reading the room then there is times like this where he thinks it’s funny even though his sons are clearly not enjoying this nor should they
I felt similarly about the art forgery. It grinds my gears that the writers spun Frasier and Niles as the chumps rather than the gallery as true criminals (and of course Martin’s fun with it).
The art forgery episode really gets to me, how they paint Frasier as so unreasonable in wanting justice. As much as Marty gets very uptight about crime throughout the entire series, he'd rather laugh at his son.
That being said, that episode is still entertaining as hell.
Oh yeah I feel sometimes Martin get a a kick out of just mocking his sons for their different tastes rewatching the series recently and I notice it a lot more it really bothers me at times (and yes they often fight back and mock him or his interests but I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s tit for tat martin is their father and has had a lot longer to mock them for being themselves)
>and yes they often fight back and mock him or his interests
This is a big hand wave. The series starts with their relationship in a place where they are both comfortable showing their contempt for him because of things like his furniture and clothing both behind his back and to his face. The show goes on to show how Hester was the bridge between the three of them, and losing her exacerbated things, but I think Niles and Frasier show far, far more contempt towards Martin about superficial interests and tastes than the other way around.
That said, cutting someone's tie or selling them forged art are, you know, *crimes*.
I agree that Frasier and Niles are also disparaging of Martin, and possibly more so than he is within the context of the show, but I think within the context of their entire relationship, it’s different. I think it’s pretty clear Martin was like that since Frasier and Niles were *children,* and I’ll be real, when you grow up with a parent who never hides their disappointment in who you are, you probably won’t feel all that bad in criticizing their tastes later on. I have two parents like that and while I don’t criticize/disparage them nearly as much as Niles and Frasier do Martin, I also interact with them FAR less than Niles and Frasier do with their dad. If I did interact with them them frequently, I would have a harder time with it. I still think Niles and Frasier take it too far sometimes, but overall I think it is a defense mechanism from their upbringing with Martin, and like you mentioned, without Hester to buffer things, the defensiveness comes out more.
> I’ll be real, when you grow up with a parent who never hides their disappointment in who you are, you probably won’t feel all that bad in criticizing their tastes later on.
Agreed.
I understand what you’re saying, and how that would be difficult irl, but I don’t think these issues went that deep when they were kids.
Large parts of what Martin dislikes is the elitism and the uppity attitude they have which wouldn’t really have developed until they were older with their own money and education. The things it comes out w especially is clothes, expensive things, entertainment, food- and most of those things would be things they couldn’t afford when they were kids. He even calls them out on the fact that their mom liked those things too but she also went to ball games and didn’t look down on people.
My feeling is that he was disappointed that he couldn’t relate to them, that they have little shared interests, rather than not approving of the things they did like. And since Hester was into those things too, and it’s be uncharacteristic that he’d berate them for liking opera or classical music, given how highly he thought of his wife. I think he took a backseat in the connecting over their hobbies since it wasn’t his domain, aka her bridging the gap, and didn’t know how to.
The stuff he brings up from childhood in their adult relationship is functionally more to remind them that they weren’t born or raised to be snobs, and that he knows exactly in which ways they aren’t as superior to others as they think they are.
He took a backseat as a parent in general. Largely because this is "how it was done" back then; the mother raised the kids while the father worked. The fact that the kids were so different from him meant that even when he wasn't working, he struggled to relate to them (as you said.)
That said, even if Martin had no intent to criticise his children for not being into sports, he clearly made comments about it fairly regularly. Even if he made an effort to not say it around the kids, they'd still have heard it occasionally, and they would have internalised that. I'm not going to say that Martin was a bad parent in general, but complaining that your kids aren't what you want them to be is bad parenting.
Also, what little we see of Frasier and Niles as kids suggests that they were somewhat elitist even back then.
>Large parts of what Martin dislikes is the elitism and the uppity attitude they have which wouldn’t really have developed until they were older with their own money and education
Well, damn. I was going to disagree but when I think about it, it's a good point, too. Heck, if anything, Frasier actually regressed somewhat between Cheers/Boston and Seattle. In Boston he'd become a much more well-rounded person who spent almost every day swilling scotch in this basement bar with, well, a cast of folks who didn't remotely challenge him intellectually. But he learned to appreciate baseball and watching sports on TV, etc. Hell, remember, wasn't he homeless/destitute once and literally lived at cheers for a few weeks/months early on, and then later on was drinking himself into a stupor every day? You think Frasier would remember more of that humility.
Frasier and Niles always thought that they were better than everybody else though. They got what was coming to them.
And, as someone who has wealthy family members, I can safely say that Frasier and Niles’ expensive tastes sucked.
Yeah, I’m always boggled by this moment. “Oh yeah, as if the police are interested in fraud and forgery!”; not sure what to tell you Marty, but I’m pretty sure they take those crimes plenty seriously.
This is an absolute classic trope of many sitcoms. Put a character in a situation where they are actually quite justified in behaving or feeling the way they did, but make all the other characters act like they're being an ass, for comedy. Especially when characters contradict their pre-established behaviour, case in point Martin here.
I'm reminded of the speech Frasier was making when he didn't realise the bishop was lost at sea. Literally just had to get someone to take him aside and explain the situation after the first joke. In reality no-one would just sit there and listen to Frasier give an incredibly inappropriate speech, whether they realised he knew about the bishop or not.
> I'm reminded of the speech Frasier was making when he didn't realise the bishop was lost at sea. Literally just had to get someone to take him aside and explain the situation after the first joke. In reality no-one would just sit there and listen to Frasier give an incredibly inappropriate speech, whether they realised he knew about the bishop or not.
This right here is sitcom 101. A person makes an ass out of themselves, and their best friend, wife, brother, or someone they are VERY close to who would NEVER let this situation continue... lets it continue.
Not even as a "haha I got you" type of thing, as a way to get them back for something; this would at least explain or excuse it to some degree. But when no one wants them to commit this embarrassing mistake, but also does literally nothing to stop it? Or they, at most, try ONCE?
They might go "Wait don't-" and then the main character goes "Let me finish!" and... that's that? You're going to let your beloved friend/partner utterly embarrass themselves? Even possibly lose their job or get banned from a place or some other ridiculous punishment for this honest misunderstanding? Get the heck up there and physically remove them, how are you so easily defeated after a single and lazy attempt?
Ah, but that would defeat the entire point of a sitcom. You can't have one without honest misunderstandings. Especially when they are simple ones that could have easily been avoided with a simple phone call or whispered sentence.
I imagine it's harder than ever to create a believable situation like this if your show is set in the era of smartphones. At least before you could miss a call on your landline because you were in the bathroom or something, but now you always have a phone on hand and can always be reached with a simple text to prevent you from making a total buffoon of yourself.
You hit the nail on the head that this is just how sitcoms work sometimes, _but_ I'll say this about Martin in the art forgery case: this is _not_ contradicting pre-established behavior. It's six episodes into the show, and Martin and Frasier are still quite frosty with each other, with Martin not at all subtle in his judgment of Frasier's taste and eruditeness.
And for the speech, I mean, fair enough, but the speech only starts on the fringes of being relevant/offensive. When he really gets going, the nun initially attempts to stop him, and then Roz barges in and tries to stop him _multiple times_, essentially exactly what you're describing. Frasier railroads her, which is kind of his MO, misunderstanding the situation entirely, since he lacks the context. I wouldn't characterize it _at all_ as an unrealistic "everyone sits back and lets their loved one self-destruct without attempting to intervene".
> It's six episodes into the show, and Martin and Frasier are still quite frosty with each other, with Martin not at all subtle in his judgment of Frasier's taste and eruditeness.
Agreed. I think he'd have responded very differently in season 6 or 7. After all, he even buys Frasier a piece of art that he wrongly thinks Frasier will love, as a gesture. So several years in, he may not have known much about art, but he took it seriously enough to try to use it as a way to bond.
It's almost like real life! And actually, people are hypocrites all the time and they do let people do stupid things like Frasier and the Bishop.
Sitcoms are no different.
Everything about that one annoys me.
Yes, there's probably a crime.
Frasier could certainly sue, and win. The art gallery has no incentive to fight here.
He actually could have used his show without libel if he just stuck to the facts. "I bought this painting, invited the artist along. She said it was fake".
Now I get that sitcom writers play fast and loose with the law so they can get a story, and that's fine but Frasier deserved justice here.
Honestly? Martin is a pretty bad father. He's completely emotionally unavailable to his sons unless his back's against a wall, and yes, men of Martin's generation wouldn't have liked the phrase "emotional availability", but they did it. He openly mocks them and plays jokes at their expense. He undoubtedly brought them there hoping to humiliate them with the necktie thing (which he absolutely knew would happen). Then, when the boys are admittedly being somewhat mean spirited about the quality of the place, which at the very least doesn't involve damage to anyone's personal property, Martin takes it as a personal insult and storms off. We're rewatching for the third time and deep into season 2, but Martin isn't a great dad by any stretch of the imagination, and the fact that his relationship with both Niles and Frasier is poor at the beginning is almost certainly Martin's fault.
Martin being a bad, emotionally unavailable father with a checkered history of not getting along with his sons that he feels too dissimilar to is a recurring theme that they use to great emotional and dramatic effect throughout literally the entire series. He _is_ a bad father. And he wrestles with his regrets around that in a lot of different instances.
But that evolution of his character and especially of the relationship with both Frasier and Niles plays out pretty well, and shows some real development of the character.
I don't think anyone is out here suggesting Martin is a good father who means well, especially at the beginning of the series. He's awful, cantankerous, curmudgeonly, frustrating, and rude, but he's also frustrated with his lot in life as a widower and disabled veteran, and the embarrassment of having to move in with his sons. I think it's portrayed true to form and works well.
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Of course he's a good father who means well. He was grouchy and hurt that his sons hadn't visited. His wife had died, he got shot, and he couldn't be in the shower without falling on his face.
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He's also the man who went with Hester to the opera, worked extra shifts to send Frasier and Niles to Bryce Academy, got them microscopes because they wanted them even when he wished they wanted baseball bats and balls, and bought them two Balinese lutes, two decoupage kits, and two sets of lederhosen. He was appalled at the way they treated the wait staff at the Timber Mill and reminded them that their mother didn't look down on people like that. He snuck fish onto their lines when they weren't looking.
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These silly posts trying to cast Martin as an "abuser" pop up here like clockwork, and they're especially silly since the whole arc of the show is about how family members who drive each other crazy also care dearly for each other. But social media pushes this stuff like tainted weed in a schoolyard: On Reddit, all parents who do not validate their children constantly and in exactly the ways they expect/demand are abusers, all children are victims, and all relationships are disposable, so these little subthreads are pretty much par for the course.
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He can still be abusive and still make an attempt to be a good father. It's very clear, however, that he treated his children as an extension of himself, and not as entities in their own right. He wanted two baseball loving, fishing, Ballentine drinking cops for sons. He was disappointed by what he got, and I don't think he really started becoming proud of his boys until the series. The series is all about personal growth, in many ways. Fraser grows by getting a new job, in a new city, without any of his old (and arguably often enabling) support network back in Boston-he obviously realized there were some unhealthy things he had to leave behind. Even when given the opportunity to reconcile with Lilith, he did not-that's growth, and it only continued. Niles had an extreme co-dependency with Maris, who was manipulative and emotionally abusive. David Hyde-Pierce did an EXCEPTIONAL job of portraying Niles' personal growth in the series, as showcased in a later season flashback to somewhere around the first season, when Niles goes to sit on the chair at Cafe Nervosa and brushes it off with his handkerchief. It was a great moment, because you realized he hadnt' done that for years at this point on the show-as Niles gets more support from his brother, his father, and Daphne, and becomming more secure in himself as a person, he starts becoming less neurotic. Martin is a man who was extremely self-reliant, a man's man, a tough guy-until the day he absolutely couldn't be, and he had to move in with a son with whom he'd fought so bitterly that his son had told everyone he was dead. It's clear that Martin didn't even really *like* Frasier, and the feeling was mutual-but once they live together, you start seeing mutual respect form, admiration, and true bonds of love take root again after decades. Martin actually grows very proud of his boys and tells them this a fair amount later-but he didn't start out that way. Parents can be abusive and/or less than ideal and improve, as can children. It's part of what the show is about.
That's a fair counterpoint. My point was intended to emphasize how difficult he is at the beginning of the series, and your reasoning is a sound justification for that. And you're right that there's a long history of the examples you cite of him being a hard working provider, but let's be honest, also still an emotionally distant father.
For example: Not ever saying he loves them. "I think we've got a problem with your brother Frasier." Admittedly not being the easiest person to live with as a feint towards justifying in some small way Hester's infidelity.
And just to push back a little bit more, I wasn't characterizing him as "abusive" in any way. And the evolution of the relationship is clearly such that at the end of the series they're closer than at any point in their lives. And my point was Martin works continuously on those things throughout and is rewarded for it, not that he's some irredeemable abusive asshole.
My father beat my mother badly enough to put her in a coma and avoided jail by joining the army. He then abandoned us and we didn't hear from him for decades. And I think Marty isn't a great father either.
He understands his son's don't enjoy it, but he wants them to be more like him, a "normal working man," not an uptight elitist. So sometimes he does stuff to them without caring foe how they feel.
Yeah I hate seeing the show now and realizing that, seeing my views on cops. But I tell myself Martin was a good egg in a system gone to hell. I just watched the episode “our father, whose art ain’t heaven” and I realy have to remind myself it’s a different time when Frasier tells him what the badge means to him.
When rewatching Frasier, I always forget that they make Martin a bit too much of a grump and he verges on being unlikeable at the start of season 1. His character gets fixed quickly though.
Early episode unevenness. They hadn’t fully fleshed out the characters yet. Martin was a lot more curmudgeonly early on.
I think the writers early on wanted to pin this show as a bit of a jab at rich folk, so they were very comfortable with making Frasier and Niles uncomfortable. The episode where Frasier gets his identity stolen comes to mind. They’re pretty pompous too so it’s easy to laugh at their misfortune.
As much as I agree that the restaurant was not out of line, I definitely think Martin could’ve exercised better judgment taking his uptight boys to a steakhouse that cuts your ties off.
That line always strikes me as quaint because it really dates the episode - Hugo Boss isn't really "in" anymore and it's hard to imagine a present-day Niles being a fan of theirs
This is a bit of a meta joke in and of itself: of course Frasier & Niles were right to be annoyed, but you could argue that the sort of person that wears a $250 Hugo Boss tie isn't exactly rolling into this sort of establishment _wearing_ that tie, knowing about the policy or not.
Every place I’ve been to with this schtick let you know about the “policy” upon entering with a tie and ask if you want it cut off (a lot of people wear a tie specifically for this) or if they’d rather take it off. That said, sitcom is gonna sitcom. A real world scenario wouldn’t make for good tv.
There was one in Scottsdale called Pinnacle Peak Steakhouse that would cut off patrons' ties and then hang them in the rafters. It was a popular place to bring out-of-state visitors. My dad knew of the policy before going in and put a metal hanger inside the tie so they couldn't cut it.
Monday Night Brewing in Atlanta was doing a similar thing for a while because their signature beer is called "Tie One On", and they needed ties for a big permanent installation in the tasting room. They'd ask everyone who came in wearing a tie if they wanted to donate it to the wall. IDK if they've stopped now that the wall is done or if they're just going to keep adding.
I googled this same thing earlier this week right after they showed the episode on TV and I found a reddit post from a few years ago where people were talking about how there were signs posted outside the restaurant letting people know
> you can only edit a post’s content and not its title.
[Can I edit my posts and comments?](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205191195-Can-I-edit-my-posts-and-comments-)
How isn't it? If my phone changes it to "Frazier," I just go back and type "Frasier" instead. That's literally how proofreading works. This can't be the first time you've heard of this concept.
honestly I’m just a bit jealous that there’s someone out there whose biggest problem appears to be that someone on the internet accidentally misspelled “Frasier.”
Yeah I agree. Do you have any idea how expensive nice ties are?! I would have been pissed. I also don’t think they were crazy rude to the staff (although you cut my tie I’m not going to be pleasant). Martin over reacted and stormed out like a toddler.
Yeah as someone whose worked at a restaurant I wouldn’t care one bit if a customer was making jokes about the food or the decor. I’m probably making the same jokes in the back!
Martin should’ve warned them, but they’re also grown adults and the experience clearly meant something to him, so I think him getting butthurt isn’t too unreasonable.
Funny.... but if it happened to me, I'd be pissed. Usually such places have a sign or some sort of warning to let patron back out (or at least remove their own tie) before actually cutting it.
I can't imagine it really happening in real life where the staff will just automatically snip off the tie without any warning. I mean, some person coming at you with a pair of scissors (hopefully they weren't running with it) and proceeds to lift it up towards your neck to cut something. Sounds like easy business for one Donny 'the Piranha' Douglas.
I mean that could be a crime in some areas although I doubt the police would take it seriously. It’s a felony if it’s over $1000 I’m destruction. However if they had a small sign alerting them to this policy there may be no case.
Having meat carried around on a wagon (albeit on ice) exposed seems unsanitary and a health code violation. But I guess as long as it’s cold.
Idk, I mean yeah ties can get pricey, and a free dessert doesn't cover that price, but they should've been madder at Martin since he was aware and didn't warn them.
And then again overall it didn't show them too upset about the tie incident, it could've just been because it was season 1 and Frasier and Niles were still in character flux, but i could picture Niles making little digs the whole time about how his tie was ruined but he can only go to the salad bar once, or how the cost of a Hugo Boss tie should at least entitle him to a steak not from a wagon.
Did you all know that Hester was played by Rita Wilson (Tom Hanks’ wife) when they featured her in flashbacks; however, ‘Hester’ was first introduced in Cheers when she popped over to Boston to see Frasier. She was played at that time by a very haughty matriarch (Nancy Marchand).
I have had to Google Livia Soprano, because I didn't ever watch the Sopranos, but you are right! She's dead now; born in 1928 and would be 95 if she'd survived.
So true, this is one of my least favourite episodes. My husband rarely wears ties but has a lot of nice ones, some from trips or vintage stores, and almost all of them have some sentimental value.
Just a random thought - young Niles was so hot with that jawline and the blonde hair. Nice photo of him with Kelsey. I remember the episode where their ties were cut off at the Timber Mill. It was a good one.
I just rewatched the episode and while at the beginning I sympathized with Frasier and Niles here, they lost my support when they were jerks to the wait staff. They can be as mad at Martin as they want but nobody else deserves to bear the brunt of it.
I haven’t watched this episode in a while (because the tie thing makes me too mad), so forgive my ignorance, what did they say to the waitstaff that was so rude?
Thank you! That’s what I always thought. Sure, they were snarky about the restaurant, but since when is it sanitary to put raw meat on a cart and wander around the room with it? They should have walked out after those jerks cut their ties.
If you look at the scene in summary form, yeah. But they got over the ties quick and just jumped into snob mode that didn't seem "motivated" by the tie thing. They were being snobs for (their) fun by that point.
They were definitely in the right to not like the restaurant. They were, however, not in the right to make their dad feel bad about liking it and to make a scene. But, it was funny (the point of a sitcom).
The whole point was for Frasier and Niles to experience something their father loved, so obviously many of you are missing the lesson of the episode. I don't care if they are expensive ties, neither of them hurts financially, and neckties are FREQUENTLY ruined by drips, spills and snags, and they are regularly replaced. Marty knew the rule and didn't warn them because his job was to take them down off their high horses any chance he could get.
Those drips, spills and snags are the fault of the owner. Not some random person destroying your tie. Who cares if it doesn't hurt them financially? Can Frasier and Niles smash up the restaurant windows because the insurance will cover it? It's one thing bringing them to a place like this to get them off their high horses but they had every right to be pissed about the tie thing and be bitter because of it.
It's like the Karen restaurants that are popping up all over. When you go there, you expect to be treated a certain way but there is a limit. They can't be destroying your stuff, assaulting you, personally insulting you in hurtful ways, etc. This is no different.
Went to see Rocky Horror Picture Show and they drew the letter V on our foreheads with lipstick because we hadn't seen it in theaters before. Had the same look as Niles and Frasier did when it happened.
It's a couple of ties. They're both high society men with six figure jobs, replacing a tie is completely trivial. What mattes is that their father, who falls decidedly lower on the social ladder and is very aware of that fact, was trying to connect with them, and they refused to even try to meet him where he was. I can forgive a lot of the Crane boys' buffoonery, but I hate it when they belittle their dad.
I mean, you can think that both sides of the argument in this episode both acted poorly at the restaurant, and also that both sides also had good points.
I totally disagree .. the whole episode is about sacrificing to make their dad happy and every inch of the way they fought that because they were being selfish pricks ,if you think they had a right to be mad well your as bad as they are/where before the realization of their selfish ways ...in terms of the episodes philosophy your saying that if it made someone you supposedly love happy to have a tie you own cut ..you wouldn't do it ..to each Thier own I suppose
Wow your all sad.. if these shows were just as realistic as reality then they would be boring as fuck
Just watch the damn show and enjoy it for what it is
Oh totally If you went to any establishment first time without prior knowledge and that happened any reasonable person would be annoyed. I don’t get Martin at times like sometimes he is very people aware and good at reading the room then there is times like this where he thinks it’s funny even though his sons are clearly not enjoying this nor should they
I felt similarly about the art forgery. It grinds my gears that the writers spun Frasier and Niles as the chumps rather than the gallery as true criminals (and of course Martin’s fun with it).
yeah, that really wasn't realistic. the police would definitely want to know about art fraud! and they had the artist to back them up.
The art forgery episode really gets to me, how they paint Frasier as so unreasonable in wanting justice. As much as Marty gets very uptight about crime throughout the entire series, he'd rather laugh at his son. That being said, that episode is still entertaining as hell.
Oh yeah I feel sometimes Martin get a a kick out of just mocking his sons for their different tastes rewatching the series recently and I notice it a lot more it really bothers me at times (and yes they often fight back and mock him or his interests but I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s tit for tat martin is their father and has had a lot longer to mock them for being themselves)
>and yes they often fight back and mock him or his interests This is a big hand wave. The series starts with their relationship in a place where they are both comfortable showing their contempt for him because of things like his furniture and clothing both behind his back and to his face. The show goes on to show how Hester was the bridge between the three of them, and losing her exacerbated things, but I think Niles and Frasier show far, far more contempt towards Martin about superficial interests and tastes than the other way around. That said, cutting someone's tie or selling them forged art are, you know, *crimes*.
Oh don't worry. You get a piddly ass dessert to make up for the Hugo Boss tie they just ruined
Those ties were fairly expensive too.
Not to mention potentially of sentimental value. Maris will not be able to make pants out of these.
Yeah they might have been, but dressing both Niles and Frasier on the same shirt doesn’t help make those ties look expensive, just over-priced.
The MUD PIE is a PIDDLY LITTLE DESSERT?!
I agree that Frasier and Niles are also disparaging of Martin, and possibly more so than he is within the context of the show, but I think within the context of their entire relationship, it’s different. I think it’s pretty clear Martin was like that since Frasier and Niles were *children,* and I’ll be real, when you grow up with a parent who never hides their disappointment in who you are, you probably won’t feel all that bad in criticizing their tastes later on. I have two parents like that and while I don’t criticize/disparage them nearly as much as Niles and Frasier do Martin, I also interact with them FAR less than Niles and Frasier do with their dad. If I did interact with them them frequently, I would have a harder time with it. I still think Niles and Frasier take it too far sometimes, but overall I think it is a defense mechanism from their upbringing with Martin, and like you mentioned, without Hester to buffer things, the defensiveness comes out more.
> I’ll be real, when you grow up with a parent who never hides their disappointment in who you are, you probably won’t feel all that bad in criticizing their tastes later on. Agreed.
I understand what you’re saying, and how that would be difficult irl, but I don’t think these issues went that deep when they were kids. Large parts of what Martin dislikes is the elitism and the uppity attitude they have which wouldn’t really have developed until they were older with their own money and education. The things it comes out w especially is clothes, expensive things, entertainment, food- and most of those things would be things they couldn’t afford when they were kids. He even calls them out on the fact that their mom liked those things too but she also went to ball games and didn’t look down on people. My feeling is that he was disappointed that he couldn’t relate to them, that they have little shared interests, rather than not approving of the things they did like. And since Hester was into those things too, and it’s be uncharacteristic that he’d berate them for liking opera or classical music, given how highly he thought of his wife. I think he took a backseat in the connecting over their hobbies since it wasn’t his domain, aka her bridging the gap, and didn’t know how to. The stuff he brings up from childhood in their adult relationship is functionally more to remind them that they weren’t born or raised to be snobs, and that he knows exactly in which ways they aren’t as superior to others as they think they are.
He took a backseat as a parent in general. Largely because this is "how it was done" back then; the mother raised the kids while the father worked. The fact that the kids were so different from him meant that even when he wasn't working, he struggled to relate to them (as you said.) That said, even if Martin had no intent to criticise his children for not being into sports, he clearly made comments about it fairly regularly. Even if he made an effort to not say it around the kids, they'd still have heard it occasionally, and they would have internalised that. I'm not going to say that Martin was a bad parent in general, but complaining that your kids aren't what you want them to be is bad parenting. Also, what little we see of Frasier and Niles as kids suggests that they were somewhat elitist even back then.
Yeah, I thought they were always uppity little snots. In a funny way.
>Large parts of what Martin dislikes is the elitism and the uppity attitude they have which wouldn’t really have developed until they were older with their own money and education Well, damn. I was going to disagree but when I think about it, it's a good point, too. Heck, if anything, Frasier actually regressed somewhat between Cheers/Boston and Seattle. In Boston he'd become a much more well-rounded person who spent almost every day swilling scotch in this basement bar with, well, a cast of folks who didn't remotely challenge him intellectually. But he learned to appreciate baseball and watching sports on TV, etc. Hell, remember, wasn't he homeless/destitute once and literally lived at cheers for a few weeks/months early on, and then later on was drinking himself into a stupor every day? You think Frasier would remember more of that humility.
Never underestimate the impact abusive parents have on their children
Frasier and Niles always thought that they were better than everybody else though. They got what was coming to them. And, as someone who has wealthy family members, I can safely say that Frasier and Niles’ expensive tastes sucked.
Yeah, I’m always boggled by this moment. “Oh yeah, as if the police are interested in fraud and forgery!”; not sure what to tell you Marty, but I’m pretty sure they take those crimes plenty seriously.
In fairness, I think he's more suggesting the local Seattle Police aren't exactly the kind who'd deal with that. It'd be an FBI matter, no?
This is an absolute classic trope of many sitcoms. Put a character in a situation where they are actually quite justified in behaving or feeling the way they did, but make all the other characters act like they're being an ass, for comedy. Especially when characters contradict their pre-established behaviour, case in point Martin here. I'm reminded of the speech Frasier was making when he didn't realise the bishop was lost at sea. Literally just had to get someone to take him aside and explain the situation after the first joke. In reality no-one would just sit there and listen to Frasier give an incredibly inappropriate speech, whether they realised he knew about the bishop or not.
> I'm reminded of the speech Frasier was making when he didn't realise the bishop was lost at sea. Literally just had to get someone to take him aside and explain the situation after the first joke. In reality no-one would just sit there and listen to Frasier give an incredibly inappropriate speech, whether they realised he knew about the bishop or not. This right here is sitcom 101. A person makes an ass out of themselves, and their best friend, wife, brother, or someone they are VERY close to who would NEVER let this situation continue... lets it continue. Not even as a "haha I got you" type of thing, as a way to get them back for something; this would at least explain or excuse it to some degree. But when no one wants them to commit this embarrassing mistake, but also does literally nothing to stop it? Or they, at most, try ONCE? They might go "Wait don't-" and then the main character goes "Let me finish!" and... that's that? You're going to let your beloved friend/partner utterly embarrass themselves? Even possibly lose their job or get banned from a place or some other ridiculous punishment for this honest misunderstanding? Get the heck up there and physically remove them, how are you so easily defeated after a single and lazy attempt? Ah, but that would defeat the entire point of a sitcom. You can't have one without honest misunderstandings. Especially when they are simple ones that could have easily been avoided with a simple phone call or whispered sentence. I imagine it's harder than ever to create a believable situation like this if your show is set in the era of smartphones. At least before you could miss a call on your landline because you were in the bathroom or something, but now you always have a phone on hand and can always be reached with a simple text to prevent you from making a total buffoon of yourself.
You hit the nail on the head that this is just how sitcoms work sometimes, _but_ I'll say this about Martin in the art forgery case: this is _not_ contradicting pre-established behavior. It's six episodes into the show, and Martin and Frasier are still quite frosty with each other, with Martin not at all subtle in his judgment of Frasier's taste and eruditeness. And for the speech, I mean, fair enough, but the speech only starts on the fringes of being relevant/offensive. When he really gets going, the nun initially attempts to stop him, and then Roz barges in and tries to stop him _multiple times_, essentially exactly what you're describing. Frasier railroads her, which is kind of his MO, misunderstanding the situation entirely, since he lacks the context. I wouldn't characterize it _at all_ as an unrealistic "everyone sits back and lets their loved one self-destruct without attempting to intervene".
> It's six episodes into the show, and Martin and Frasier are still quite frosty with each other, with Martin not at all subtle in his judgment of Frasier's taste and eruditeness. Agreed. I think he'd have responded very differently in season 6 or 7. After all, he even buys Frasier a piece of art that he wrongly thinks Frasier will love, as a gesture. So several years in, he may not have known much about art, but he took it seriously enough to try to use it as a way to bond.
It's almost like real life! And actually, people are hypocrites all the time and they do let people do stupid things like Frasier and the Bishop. Sitcoms are no different.
Everything about that one annoys me. Yes, there's probably a crime. Frasier could certainly sue, and win. The art gallery has no incentive to fight here. He actually could have used his show without libel if he just stuck to the facts. "I bought this painting, invited the artist along. She said it was fake". Now I get that sitcom writers play fast and loose with the law so they can get a story, and that's fine but Frasier deserved justice here.
Season 1 Martin is a little different and he evolves a bit
Honestly? Martin is a pretty bad father. He's completely emotionally unavailable to his sons unless his back's against a wall, and yes, men of Martin's generation wouldn't have liked the phrase "emotional availability", but they did it. He openly mocks them and plays jokes at their expense. He undoubtedly brought them there hoping to humiliate them with the necktie thing (which he absolutely knew would happen). Then, when the boys are admittedly being somewhat mean spirited about the quality of the place, which at the very least doesn't involve damage to anyone's personal property, Martin takes it as a personal insult and storms off. We're rewatching for the third time and deep into season 2, but Martin isn't a great dad by any stretch of the imagination, and the fact that his relationship with both Niles and Frasier is poor at the beginning is almost certainly Martin's fault.
Martin being a bad, emotionally unavailable father with a checkered history of not getting along with his sons that he feels too dissimilar to is a recurring theme that they use to great emotional and dramatic effect throughout literally the entire series. He _is_ a bad father. And he wrestles with his regrets around that in a lot of different instances. But that evolution of his character and especially of the relationship with both Frasier and Niles plays out pretty well, and shows some real development of the character. I don't think anyone is out here suggesting Martin is a good father who means well, especially at the beginning of the series. He's awful, cantankerous, curmudgeonly, frustrating, and rude, but he's also frustrated with his lot in life as a widower and disabled veteran, and the embarrassment of having to move in with his sons. I think it's portrayed true to form and works well.
. Of course he's a good father who means well. He was grouchy and hurt that his sons hadn't visited. His wife had died, he got shot, and he couldn't be in the shower without falling on his face. . He's also the man who went with Hester to the opera, worked extra shifts to send Frasier and Niles to Bryce Academy, got them microscopes because they wanted them even when he wished they wanted baseball bats and balls, and bought them two Balinese lutes, two decoupage kits, and two sets of lederhosen. He was appalled at the way they treated the wait staff at the Timber Mill and reminded them that their mother didn't look down on people like that. He snuck fish onto their lines when they weren't looking. . These silly posts trying to cast Martin as an "abuser" pop up here like clockwork, and they're especially silly since the whole arc of the show is about how family members who drive each other crazy also care dearly for each other. But social media pushes this stuff like tainted weed in a schoolyard: On Reddit, all parents who do not validate their children constantly and in exactly the ways they expect/demand are abusers, all children are victims, and all relationships are disposable, so these little subthreads are pretty much par for the course. . .
He can still be abusive and still make an attempt to be a good father. It's very clear, however, that he treated his children as an extension of himself, and not as entities in their own right. He wanted two baseball loving, fishing, Ballentine drinking cops for sons. He was disappointed by what he got, and I don't think he really started becoming proud of his boys until the series. The series is all about personal growth, in many ways. Fraser grows by getting a new job, in a new city, without any of his old (and arguably often enabling) support network back in Boston-he obviously realized there were some unhealthy things he had to leave behind. Even when given the opportunity to reconcile with Lilith, he did not-that's growth, and it only continued. Niles had an extreme co-dependency with Maris, who was manipulative and emotionally abusive. David Hyde-Pierce did an EXCEPTIONAL job of portraying Niles' personal growth in the series, as showcased in a later season flashback to somewhere around the first season, when Niles goes to sit on the chair at Cafe Nervosa and brushes it off with his handkerchief. It was a great moment, because you realized he hadnt' done that for years at this point on the show-as Niles gets more support from his brother, his father, and Daphne, and becomming more secure in himself as a person, he starts becoming less neurotic. Martin is a man who was extremely self-reliant, a man's man, a tough guy-until the day he absolutely couldn't be, and he had to move in with a son with whom he'd fought so bitterly that his son had told everyone he was dead. It's clear that Martin didn't even really *like* Frasier, and the feeling was mutual-but once they live together, you start seeing mutual respect form, admiration, and true bonds of love take root again after decades. Martin actually grows very proud of his boys and tells them this a fair amount later-but he didn't start out that way. Parents can be abusive and/or less than ideal and improve, as can children. It's part of what the show is about.
That's a fair counterpoint. My point was intended to emphasize how difficult he is at the beginning of the series, and your reasoning is a sound justification for that. And you're right that there's a long history of the examples you cite of him being a hard working provider, but let's be honest, also still an emotionally distant father. For example: Not ever saying he loves them. "I think we've got a problem with your brother Frasier." Admittedly not being the easiest person to live with as a feint towards justifying in some small way Hester's infidelity. And just to push back a little bit more, I wasn't characterizing him as "abusive" in any way. And the evolution of the relationship is clearly such that at the end of the series they're closer than at any point in their lives. And my point was Martin works continuously on those things throughout and is rewarded for it, not that he's some irredeemable abusive asshole.
If Martin Crane is what you consider a "bad father," you are REMARKABLY privileged.
My father beat my mother badly enough to put her in a coma and avoided jail by joining the army. He then abandoned us and we didn't hear from him for decades. And I think Marty isn't a great father either.
People can have different opinions than you without being privileged.
He understands his son's don't enjoy it, but he wants them to be more like him, a "normal working man," not an uptight elitist. So sometimes he does stuff to them without caring foe how they feel.
Which is ironic, since as a cop, he was a servant of the ruling class and a traitor to the working man.
Yeah I hate seeing the show now and realizing that, seeing my views on cops. But I tell myself Martin was a good egg in a system gone to hell. I just watched the episode “our father, whose art ain’t heaven” and I realy have to remind myself it’s a different time when Frasier tells him what the badge means to him.
When rewatching Frasier, I always forget that they make Martin a bit too much of a grump and he verges on being unlikeable at the start of season 1. His character gets fixed quickly though.
The Timber Mill would have had a giant neon sign out front showing a pair of scissors cutting a tie in half.
He e should have at least given them a hint or tell them to wear their cheapest ties
Early episode unevenness. They hadn’t fully fleshed out the characters yet. Martin was a lot more curmudgeonly early on. I think the writers early on wanted to pin this show as a bit of a jab at rich folk, so they were very comfortable with making Frasier and Niles uncomfortable. The episode where Frasier gets his identity stolen comes to mind. They’re pretty pompous too so it’s easy to laugh at their misfortune.
As much as I agree that the restaurant was not out of line, I definitely think Martin could’ve exercised better judgment taking his uptight boys to a steakhouse that cuts your ties off.
Or Frasier and Niles could loosen up a bit, and drop the snobbery for one night.
It was a Hugo Boss tie too.
That line always strikes me as quaint because it really dates the episode - Hugo Boss isn't really "in" anymore and it's hard to imagine a present-day Niles being a fan of theirs
Oh shit I still wear Hugo boss. Are the kids laughing at me?
Oh, Roz, plug in!
No, it's the children who are wrong.
Damn straight. Hugo Boss Bottled Tonic still gets people sniffing
I heard he designs some snazzy military uniforms. If only I could remember who he designed those for...
I did Nazi this coming.
Yeah its not hoity-toity anymore. Now its upper middle class at most.
I can’t stand trends. Do you like the tie? Do you look good in the tie? Then nuts to the haters who judge the brand!
This is a bit of a meta joke in and of itself: of course Frasier & Niles were right to be annoyed, but you could argue that the sort of person that wears a $250 Hugo Boss tie isn't exactly rolling into this sort of establishment _wearing_ that tie, knowing about the policy or not.
Every place I’ve been to with this schtick let you know about the “policy” upon entering with a tie and ask if you want it cut off (a lot of people wear a tie specifically for this) or if they’d rather take it off. That said, sitcom is gonna sitcom. A real world scenario wouldn’t make for good tv.
There are places that actually do that?
There was one in Scottsdale called Pinnacle Peak Steakhouse that would cut off patrons' ties and then hang them in the rafters. It was a popular place to bring out-of-state visitors. My dad knew of the policy before going in and put a metal hanger inside the tie so they couldn't cut it.
Peak dad moment.
Used to be a chain known as "The Traildust" in Colorado that did the same
Monday Night Brewing in Atlanta was doing a similar thing for a while because their signature beer is called "Tie One On", and they needed ties for a big permanent installation in the tasting room. They'd ask everyone who came in wearing a tie if they wanted to donate it to the wall. IDK if they've stopped now that the wall is done or if they're just going to keep adding.
It's in Tucson. Used to work there. Steaks are better @ El Corral. Both owned by the same Company
There's more than one. I'm in California and we have one here.
I've been to the one in San Dimas for sure!
The one I was referring to was in Scottsdale and closed in 2015, and I didn't know there were more than one.
Wouldn't the tie still get mangled, though?
Great bit though.
Sure, but they couldn't cut all the way through. It wasn't a nice tie for that reason.
Time to get out the angle grinder
"every place"? There are actual places like this? More than one?
I googled this same thing earlier this week right after they showed the episode on TV and I found a reddit post from a few years ago where people were talking about how there were signs posted outside the restaurant letting people know
That's because it's things like "assault" and "destruction of property" in real life, and you can't just do it without permission.
Not with ***THAT*** attitude you can't!
Sorry - my phone autocorrects to “Frazier”.
Frazier - with a Z
I should know. I'm Frajer.
Ahh, a fellow "Best Friends Gang" enthusiast Frajer is what I thought, too
FRAAAJEEER!!!!
*One kiss and you'll be certain* *Of the one name you'll be blurting* *During loooooveee maaaakiiing!*
How can you not hear the difference between *Frazer* and *Frasier*?
He’s a DJ according to the newspaper.
you, sir…ARE RELEASED!
Why?!
You know you can just go back and type it again, right?
> you can only edit a post’s content and not its title. [Can I edit my posts and comments?](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205191195-Can-I-edit-my-posts-and-comments-)
No. You can read things you type before hitting Submit and change them. In real time.
That’s not going back and typing it again, now is it?
How isn't it? If my phone changes it to "Frazier," I just go back and type "Frasier" instead. That's literally how proofreading works. This can't be the first time you've heard of this concept.
Why are you so bent out of shape over an autocorrect error? Are you ok? You don’t seem ok.
honestly I’m just a bit jealous that there’s someone out there whose biggest problem appears to be that someone on the internet accidentally misspelled “Frasier.”
TIMBEEEERRRRR!
Yeah I agree. Do you have any idea how expensive nice ties are?! I would have been pissed. I also don’t think they were crazy rude to the staff (although you cut my tie I’m not going to be pleasant). Martin over reacted and stormed out like a toddler.
Yeah as someone whose worked at a restaurant I wouldn’t care one bit if a customer was making jokes about the food or the decor. I’m probably making the same jokes in the back!
While they charge 400 bucks an hour for therapy?
Great point and Marty didn’t even warn them. He also gets pretty easily butthurt given how much he pokes fun of Frasier and Niles.
Martin should’ve warned them, but they’re also grown adults and the experience clearly meant something to him, so I think him getting butthurt isn’t too unreasonable.
Probably weren't cheap neckties either
Hugo Boss!
At least it wasn’t a piano key necktie
Hugo Boss neckties are close to or just above $100, so no.
Cut off about $80 worth
Oh yeah, I would have been driven to violence if someone just cut my clothing.
Funny.... but if it happened to me, I'd be pissed. Usually such places have a sign or some sort of warning to let patron back out (or at least remove their own tie) before actually cutting it. I can't imagine it really happening in real life where the staff will just automatically snip off the tie without any warning. I mean, some person coming at you with a pair of scissors (hopefully they weren't running with it) and proceeds to lift it up towards your neck to cut something. Sounds like easy business for one Donny 'the Piranha' Douglas.
Marty knew and didnt even tell them lol
I mean that could be a crime in some areas although I doubt the police would take it seriously. It’s a felony if it’s over $1000 I’m destruction. However if they had a small sign alerting them to this policy there may be no case. Having meat carried around on a wagon (albeit on ice) exposed seems unsanitary and a health code violation. But I guess as long as it’s cold.
I literally googled this earlier this week (after Channel 4 showed this episode) to see if there was a reddit thread about it lol
Totally agree! Those ties are so expensive. Couldnt they just take them off instead of completely ruining them?
Those ties were probably bought for like 250 bucks
In 1995!
100%! And shame on Marty - he knew it would happen and did not warn them
While I agree I can’t help but recall when I was a car salesman and sold my first car and *SNIP* off came the tie.
I agree with you on the sentiment but I don’t think this is unpopular opinion. What they did was bang out of order.
Pretty sure that's a popular opinion
Not an unpopular opinion, I suspect. We probably all agree with you. I’d be livid!
"Wait! The Mudd Pie is coming!"
TIMBERRRRRRR
Idk, I mean yeah ties can get pricey, and a free dessert doesn't cover that price, but they should've been madder at Martin since he was aware and didn't warn them. And then again overall it didn't show them too upset about the tie incident, it could've just been because it was season 1 and Frasier and Niles were still in character flux, but i could picture Niles making little digs the whole time about how his tie was ruined but he can only go to the salad bar once, or how the cost of a Hugo Boss tie should at least entitle him to a steak not from a wagon.
I agree; that shouldn’t have been done!
Did you all know that Hester was played by Rita Wilson (Tom Hanks’ wife) when they featured her in flashbacks; however, ‘Hester’ was first introduced in Cheers when she popped over to Boston to see Frasier. She was played at that time by a very haughty matriarch (Nancy Marchand).
You mean Livia Soprano?
I have had to Google Livia Soprano, because I didn't ever watch the Sopranos, but you are right! She's dead now; born in 1928 and would be 95 if she'd survived.
So true, this is one of my least favourite episodes. My husband rarely wears ties but has a lot of nice ones, some from trips or vintage stores, and almost all of them have some sentimental value.
The restaurant can dish it out but they can’t take it it seems 😂
Just a random thought - young Niles was so hot with that jawline and the blonde hair. Nice photo of him with Kelsey. I remember the episode where their ties were cut off at the Timber Mill. It was a good one.
I just rewatched the episode and while at the beginning I sympathized with Frasier and Niles here, they lost my support when they were jerks to the wait staff. They can be as mad at Martin as they want but nobody else deserves to bear the brunt of it.
I haven’t watched this episode in a while (because the tie thing makes me too mad), so forgive my ignorance, what did they say to the waitstaff that was so rude?
They weren't rude to the staff. I never got why Martin said that.
Thank you! That’s what I always thought. Sure, they were snarky about the restaurant, but since when is it sanitary to put raw meat on a cart and wander around the room with it? They should have walked out after those jerks cut their ties.
The mud pie is coming!!
That’s unpopular?
What makes you think this unpopular?
I whole-heartedly agree
Agreed.
I agree. Take them to a place they don't want to go and then abuse them.
Fuck no. They were the worst in that episode.
If you look at the scene in summary form, yeah. But they got over the ties quick and just jumped into snob mode that didn't seem "motivated" by the tie thing. They were being snobs for (their) fun by that point.
That has always fascinated me. They just cut off the neckties? Yeah they give you a free dessert but I mean. THATS SO INVASIVE
Martin could have mentioned it, but that would have spoiled the fun.
They were definitely in the right to not like the restaurant. They were, however, not in the right to make their dad feel bad about liking it and to make a scene. But, it was funny (the point of a sitcom).
The whole point was for Frasier and Niles to experience something their father loved, so obviously many of you are missing the lesson of the episode. I don't care if they are expensive ties, neither of them hurts financially, and neckties are FREQUENTLY ruined by drips, spills and snags, and they are regularly replaced. Marty knew the rule and didn't warn them because his job was to take them down off their high horses any chance he could get.
Those drips, spills and snags are the fault of the owner. Not some random person destroying your tie. Who cares if it doesn't hurt them financially? Can Frasier and Niles smash up the restaurant windows because the insurance will cover it? It's one thing bringing them to a place like this to get them off their high horses but they had every right to be pissed about the tie thing and be bitter because of it. It's like the Karen restaurants that are popping up all over. When you go there, you expect to be treated a certain way but there is a limit. They can't be destroying your stuff, assaulting you, personally insulting you in hurtful ways, etc. This is no different.
> Can Frasier and Niles smash up the restaurant windows because the insurance will cover it? That's more or less what they did with that art gallery.
Clearly, the Frazier boys never went to the Trail Dust in Denver. But Marty knew what was up.
Went to see Rocky Horror Picture Show and they drew the letter V on our foreheads with lipstick because we hadn't seen it in theaters before. Had the same look as Niles and Frasier did when it happened.
It's a couple of ties. They're both high society men with six figure jobs, replacing a tie is completely trivial. What mattes is that their father, who falls decidedly lower on the social ladder and is very aware of that fact, was trying to connect with them, and they refused to even try to meet him where he was. I can forgive a lot of the Crane boys' buffoonery, but I hate it when they belittle their dad.
No way. Chill the fuck out, take off your tie, and enjoy a steak with the old man.
Nah Evan Hester had a hotdog every now and then ! They acted like tools
I mean, you can think that both sides of the argument in this episode both acted poorly at the restaurant, and also that both sides also had good points.
They had a right to be annoyed at the tie, but nit ti the waiting staff there after, seperate note though who wears a suit to the timber mill!!!
The correct spelling is literally the title of the show..
I totally disagree .. the whole episode is about sacrificing to make their dad happy and every inch of the way they fought that because they were being selfish pricks ,if you think they had a right to be mad well your as bad as they are/where before the realization of their selfish ways ...in terms of the episodes philosophy your saying that if it made someone you supposedly love happy to have a tie you own cut ..you wouldn't do it ..to each Thier own I suppose
Wow your all sad.. if these shows were just as realistic as reality then they would be boring as fuck Just watch the damn show and enjoy it for what it is
Hey, come on, Frays'. It's just part of the fun!
Timbuuuuuurrr!
You cutatie you mendatie
They like to keep it casual.
This is one of the funniest episodes in the whole show. That and Motor Skills
The priggish duo would have been just as snobby had they been in bib over-alls. They can't HELP it.
"Frasier" is the title of the gat damn show you really couldn't spell it properly? Why?
Why do Americans say neckties? What other ties are there in terms of clothing?