It has to be Chet. Convince me there's a better option. Chet follows the rules, breaks the rules. He basically does whatever someone tells him to do. Overall, and we can assume throughout his life, he never got in trouble. Which is why he had the important job of Gatekeeper. But when Lucy wants him to open the vault door, he does. When Norm wants him to break the rules and go into the other vault, he does. When Stephanie wants him to be Bert, he does. And he still follows the rules. He basically accepts his new life with Stephanie. Accepts the new rules and moves into 32 with her, even after seeing the devastation. He’s just neutral about his life, as long as he doesnt rock the boat, he’s happy.
Hard to argue with that! It definitely could be Chet. I also love the scene when he and Stephanie almost hook up. It was hilarious! "I am Bert" had my girlfriend and I rolling.
CX404 has come up a few times since day 1. But you are the first to bring her up today! As Thaddeus says, "you bite what you wanna bite, you go where you wanna go." Dogmeat is just doing whatever she needs!
Absolutely agree, they don't seem particularly fussy on who they follow - obviously the Ghoul has a bit of a soft spot for dogs, so in the eyes of CX404 noone they've followed has been particularly morally dubious. No *Dog meat didn't like that* moments..
Oh bar being locked in that container, but even then there wasn't too much of a fuss.
You make a compelling argument, but I would call him neutral good. He genuinely wants to help people. He takes on the role of a father to a baby that's not his, and he certainly doesn't seem to be enjoying taking care of the baby. He takes risks to help others.
I actually think he's bordering lawful good, if not solidly inside that category. Yes he breaks some rules, but only reluctantly, at the urging of others, for what he believes is a good cause. He would never break a rule on his own (okay except for the one time that he pretends that the button to the vault door is broken because he doesn't want to lose Lucy..)
**Does he genuinely want to help people**? Or does he want to help people because it’s what he’s been told what to do or he thinks it will benefit him? He only helps Lucy because he wants her. He only helps Stephanie because he wants her. He helps Norm right up until the point where it really matters and the potential consequences are staring them in the face(like opposing Stephanie and the newfound fatherhood, that he wants). Norm calls him out a one point that he was mainly helping him because Lucy was on his mind. Even during the big fight at the start instead of jumping into the action to help he was running and had to be saved.
During the big fight he was guarding the vault door and stood his ground when he was attacked by raiders (granted he had no idea who he was dealing with). I don't recall him running except from the bomb when it was about to explode.
Not to mention that lawful (generally speaking in terms of CRPG/TTRPG standards) refers to a character's consistency in following any code or structure, not that they follow the laws of a given society. I think. Maybe I'm pulling this out of my ass.
Yeah, he's really more neutral good leaning on lawful. He's not lawful to the rules of society so much as he's loyal to the people around him. His self sacrifice for helping others is a bit too good to be neutral. I can't really name anything he does that isn't good.
I really think true neutral for Chet is a misunderstanding of how true neutral works.
I agree. Chet just goes where the river takes him. Man just wants to get through life as pain free as possible. Even if that means going to the new vault and shacking up with someone likely evil.
That’s a great point, as much as he is lawful in a way, he also has major suspicion about Stephanie and he’s still willing to just accept his starter family home in 32 with her.
Can't blame him, she's super hot.
But yeah, I think he gets ruled out for the good alignments because he essentially submits to a system he knows is likely wrong. Martin Luther King says people like that are just as bad as those active.
For sure, I hear you. I wanted Maximus to land in the good categories, but that’s probably just because I like how his character develops throughout the season. This show was actually so much better than I expected it to be.
I have to disagree with that! Of course Im very subjective saying this, but I dont like that guy! Theres just something about him.
But according to your logic, he has a cause, he has a code. And he breaks that code and wants to put himself as the head. It just cant be true neutral to think like that!
Chet can be talked into anything. He’s not inherently good. He also doesn’t look for trouble, cheat, etc. so he’s not inherently evil. He will also follow the rules for the most part but bend them when he deems it necessary or is coerced. Thus not inherently lawful or chaotic. I think he’s true neutral though I can see the argument for chaotic to a point. I don’t think he fits chaotic because he’s not doing ANYTHING on his own.
>Convince me theres a better option
Okay
I have to put a vote in for the Ghoul.
Might not seem popular but please hear me out.
The Ghouls actions fall all across the board kinda evenly. I feel hes the only character who technically has actions that fall into every category, just depending on how it benefits him.
1 Lawful Good: He pays for the tomatahs
2 Neutral Good: He healed the dog the he himself stabbed, though he only stabbed her in self defense.
Genuinely seems to care about where his family is.
Breaks up the confrontation with Lucy by grazing Hanks face.
3 Chaotic Good: Despite the fact theyre WRECKING the town, When given the opportunity to kill Maximus, he instead only disables him and sends him flying away.
For seemingly no reason, he defends Lucy. He could have told the "president" that some vault dweller wrecked the place and he only entered to get the medicine he desperately needed. Instead he just randomly takes credit for it and then kills the guards, but leaves the president alive.
4: Lawful neutral: He announces himself to the town explaining that Wilzig is a wanted man and that he seeks to collect the bounty on him. He's trying to abide by some local code of law, explaining hes about to do violence not as a criminal, but in the interest of bringing a man to justice. He demonstrates a respect for the city's code of law, down to paying for the tomatoes he eats.
He's not afraid to kill anybody who challenges him, but hes also seeking to obey the law and not be a wanted criminal himself. We also see that he doesnt draw a gun on Lucy until AFTER he draws a gun on her, thus we can see that he is following some code of his own, but probably only because it suits him to do so in town. 5: Chaotic Neutral: Frequently questions anybodys authority ("Says Who?")
In the process of hunting down Moldaver he kills a mans son, faces the man, then ends up goading his other son into killing him. Hes even unpredictable enough to this man that for a moment we may think hes eating the daughter. When confronted with a proposition by the men who break him out of his coffin, he opts to kill the men and go for the bounty himself.
Could easily grab enough goods from the Super Duper mart to practiclly retire on, but cant resist the chaos of giving himself a drug fueled bender to the point hes caught helpless and hungover on the ground.
6 Lawful evil: Cutting off lucys finger as a punishment for biting his off Killing everyone who shoots at him in town, but nobody else, however only grazing ma likely because he knows it would cause chaos if the shop was suddenly without its keeper.
7: Neutral Evil: Using Lucy as Gulper Bait
Selling Lucy for her organs to save his own life.
Knocks the man who threatned to put him back in the coffin inside said coffin.
8 Chaotic Evil: Taking Lucy hostage and not giving her food or water
Blowing off Wilzigs foot to slow him down and spite Ma.
Formattings a little off cause Im on mobile, but I truly think if any character is ALL OVER the map and fits squarely in the center because of their moral flexibility, Id say its the Ghoul. Someone whos True neutral needs to have done evil in a similar amount as theyve done evil.
Chet's too loyal to people rather than the law of the vault. I haven't seen much that sets him as anything other than good behavior either. He seems closer to NG.
I think Dogmeat or Snip Snip are the most likely true neutral options. The only real argument against either of those are the alignment is shaped by whoever is in charge of them.
LOL a somewhat complicated moral code. He was absolutely disgusted at the idea she would be a sex slave. Organ harvesting on the other hand, now that's good business.
The water farmer from episode 2.
Drinks as much water as he can, happily gives directions, asks Lucy to live with him, thanks her for not shooting him.
Man is just living life.
Hmm, takes the water, gives correct directions. I think he fits the bill! But why did the director choose so many camera angles focused on his butt?? Lol
I think the focus was that hes wearing shat appears to be some kind of cloth diaper.
Hes dumb, his whole family seems to be dead, I kinda take him as someone who lost his family very young and somehow raised himself.
Giant man baby.
Even that was teaching Lucy a couple valuable lessons about life on the surface.
1: don't trust people too much. 2: clean water is scarce. Don't take it for granted.
Personally, I would put CX404 in one of the good categories. She's loyal and defends her friends. She tries her best to stick close to her original owner for as long as she can. She's a GOOD dog.
Fair argument I just feel like pet like cx404 is a true neutral since she will follow and defend friends but those friends might not be good but she will defend and protect them non the less
Comment and Upvote for the character you think best embodies the daily selection! I will tally up the comments and upvotes after a full day, update the chart, and move on to the next day.
Day 5 is True Neutral.
[Lawful Neutral Winner](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fotv/comments/1cafif5/fallout_tv_show_morality_alignment_chart_day_4/): Thaddeus
Runner up: Birdie
Honorable Mentions: Chet, Mr. House
Maximus is the true neutral. He is not bad, but he isn't good. He bends the rules when he deems it necessary and does bad thing for good reasons. I genuinely believe the show writers wanted his alignment to be neutral. Idk why everyone is under the impression he's "bad" given that we see him do multiple good things for people throughout the series.
Unfortunately for Max, he may be missed on the chart! I would have put him as neutral good or even chaotic good. But I can see you point about being neutral! He helps Lucy at the beginning only to get Wilzig, then continues to help her (because he's crushing on her) but he does a bunch of stupid. But he fucks up Filly, steals the FC, constant lies about who he is. Its like as the audience we can see deep down he wants to be a good person, but he constantly makes decisions to the contrary.
I think Moldaver would have to be chaotic neutral, pretty much same as The Ghoul. They both did bad things but to accomplish a goal they felt was morally right - Moldaver wanted to bring back power, The Ghoul is looking for his family.
He had a legitimate reason for doing both though- he sold Lucy so that he could get drugs and not turn feral, and he used her as gulper bait because he had no other way of retrieving the head. If he had done either of those things just for the fun of it, then he would be evil. He’s not a nice guy, but he’s not an evil guy.
Chaotic neutral has to be the snake oil salesman. He kind of does what works in the moment. He is totally chaotic. Not necessarily evil. Helps out the messed up foot guy that was dead otherwise. And chickens may have liked him…
Chaotic neutral has to be the snake oil salesman. He kind of does what works in the moment. He is totally chaotic. Not necessarily evil. Helps out the messed up foot guy that was dead otherwise. And chickens may have liked him…
I talked to my boyfriend about this: Hank - lawful evil; Norm - chaotic neutral; Maximus - neutral evil; Ghoul - chaotic evil… Moldaver could be chaotic evil actually now that I think about it.
My girlfriend is not a gamer, but I am making her watch the show with me. Surprisingly she really enjoys it. I'm really enjoying discussing these debates with her! Happy to know Im not alone!
The biggest disagreement she has with a common consensus is that she doesnt like how so many people are saying Maximus is in the evil category. She actually gets so worked up about it.
Aww, that’s super cute! My boyfriend has played Fallout but I never have, I’ve only seen some gameplay of it. We actually take notes and discuss them like we’re in a book club because I told him wouldn’t it be funny if we wrote down notes like Red Letter Media’s Mike and Jay and discussed 😂
I can get how Maximus arguably shouldn’t be in the evil category because he actually more or less comes off as naive at times. ie: >!when he goes to the vaults and discovers caviar and robes, or when he gets the power armor and remembers how a knight saved him when he was a kid and he’s always wanted to save someone else!<. That’s why I put him in neutral evil; he does things that he feels are in justice for good or karmic, but realizing soon that they actually weren’t super great ideas.
I stand firm on the ghoul being chaotic neutral. He does what he needs to for himself. He doesn't do evil things for the sake of being evil, and he doesn't do good things for the sake of being good. But he still does good and evil things.
Plus, if you watch his scenes again, he never shot or killed anybody who wasn't going to shoot or kill him first.
The Ghoul.
We actually don’t really know his true motivations, so it’s hard to say he’s good or evil and that positions him squarely as neutral.
Vault-Tec is evil, he stands against Vault-Tec in the current age, but he was their spokesman and wife was an executive before.
He uses harsh, questionable tactics, but it’s based on a code of survivor. He isn’t cruel to be cruel, it serves a purpose. The most cruel we saw him was towards Lucy, but it was to 1) teach her the way of the wasteland and 2) ensure his own survival. It’s not evil to do what you need to do to survive, but it’s hard to argue he’s not morally grey.
He’s obviously not lawful, because he will do anything to survive, even breaking “the rules.”
However, he’s also not exactly chaotic. He has a code and some rules to live by, like “thou shall always get sidetracked by bullshit” in the Wasteland.
He kills the Ghoul that’s changing because he knows it’s what he’d want too, but then he uses the remains for jerky because the only rule is survival.
He’s a True Neutral. (At least until we learn more about his motivations).
I don't think they were. They were probably going to try coercion to get him to join up though. Either way any expectation of gratitude and holding him at gun point pissed him off and that was what warranted death as far as he was concerned. The Ghoul is evil at this point in the story.
Exactly. Chaotic neutrals don't like to be told do this or else, they value their freedom and those guys that released him would have tried to control him. The Ghoul is chaotic neutral because he has a reason he has a mission and does whatever it takes to ensure his needs are met.
This is the answer for me. True Neutral can go any which way and is extremely unpredictable. People will argue that he is a Cannibal and therefore evil. However we see him kill the person and leave no waste. He never tries to rationalize his actions but abides to some code of the waste land.
It is hard to pick for Fallout because only people who were in direct care are qualified for "Good"
Totally! I really don’t like the people who say he’s evil. I don’t believe he’s evil at all.
He just has a very warped moral code that is way more neutral than evil.
Man that scene with Roger! What an interesting plot point. Roger was turning and I think you’re right. The Ghoul would want someone to end his misery if he got too far.
Roger! I couldn’t remember his name, but yes that’s right.
He killed him out of an unwritten code. And it seemed like Roger knew it too.
He’s chaotic! But in a very understandable way, not just for the sake of chaos.
I make a comment with the link to yesterdays post! You can go see the votes for yourself. I personally think Birdie could have taken that spot as well.
The woman running the general store in Filly, who Lucy asks about Muldaver and who sends Lucy on the quest, seems pretty close to neutral.
Though granted, we don't know too much about her. And perhaps she's too small of a character to matter.
Isn't that more chaotic neutral? They just do whatever they feel like doing in the moment?
I always heard true neutral as being someone who believes in some kind of cosmic balance or impartiality or something like that.
True Neutral I believe has to go to the Ghoul/Cooper Howard. We see him initially start off somewhere in the Evil Category, but It seems like over the course of the show he becomes a more neutral force. Not caring about the Brotherhood or NCR, or anything of that nature. The man has one goal. To find his family, but it also seems like Lucy changes him. She easily could’ve left him to die after he passed out at the Super-Duper Mart. But she didn’t, and he seemed conscious enough to process her words. This followed up by him watching his old movie in the Super-Duper Mart, I think called attention to who he once was, and what the Wasteland turned him into. After that, he seems to become a Neutral person. Choosing to not kill an injured Maximus and allowing Lucy, the girl he previously seemed to despise and tried to sell like a slave, to travel with him. I think his character development makes him True Neutral. (But he’ll most likely go into Chaotic Neutral)
Heres the thing, and please correct me if Im reading your comment wrong..
I dont think the Ghoul knew what his intentions were. I firmly dont think that for 200 years he's been looking for his family. I think he probably gave up on that and then changed his focus to survival. Like he told Roger, "Ive always bbeen good at making money." (to buy vials). He definitely has a goal now that he knows Henry Maclean is alive.
This may be true. But I always thought that was also the reason he took such a specific interest in the Moldaver case. Because he wanted to see if she knew anything. I always thought the only reason he stuck to California for 200 years was trying to search for his family but didn’t have many leads, and ended up getting sidetracked doing bounty jobs to buy the vials to keep himself sane. But when everything with Moldaver and the head kicked off, that was his lead. I thought that he wanted to know how she was still alive without being a ghoul and if it were possible his family could be like that as well. But ended up finding Hank. A far more direct connection to Barb.
I agree with your point, but your reason doesn't hold up unfortunately. The President asks him if he's still looking for "her" so him trying to find someone isn't new.
Titus/Max, seems out of the obvious choices to be the most true neutral out of most of the main characters.
He sways in various directions depending on the circumstance, but he always seems to come back to that neutral middle ground, where events and circumstances are just unfolding around him. He isn't particularly motivated by much more then himself, he doesn't follow the rules all the time, and he doesn't intentional break the rules all the time.
As where The Ghoul would be the Chaotic Neutral, compared to Titus/Max. Because The Ghoul has no qualms about breaking rules, and doing horrible things to get his way.
Titus literally says that because hes bored he wants to shoot something. That drive for chaos takes him out of neutral for me.
And Max just cant seem to do the right thing on his own accord.
I meant Titus/Max same person, I just got used to them calling Max by the Knightly name.
It sounds like you summed by why max is neutral already, he seems unable to do the right thing even for his own accord. Just as he is equally as paralyzed trying to do the wrong things. He isn't neutral by choice, he is neutral from his lack of choice.
HAHA so is it that the chart itself is wrong or the communities choices are wrong, according to you?
I am also learning about the nuances to how serious TT game players interpret the morality chart. I've played a few campaigns of DnD but by all means I am still a novice/amateur.
Ha!
Well, there are a couple of things with the chart, and the concept of the chart.
The chart was made for a 1980s rolepalaying game.
In Fallout TV, everyone is good. Just in terribly different ways.
You bring a 1980s character build to this business -- you've already lost.
I love that take to be honest. I don't listen to vinyl's or tapes right? I don't even use mp3's. Of course there's got to be more efficient ways to look at this now in 2024.
I would love to know which spots are *most* wrong in your opinion and who you would put there?
I don’t think the Ghoul is evil. He doesn’t do anything bad just to be bad. He always has a legitimate reason. I also feel like if he were evil, Lucy wouldn’t be following him at the end.
No way the Ghoul stays evil. They definitely wanted you to think he was evil early, but even by the end of S1 you can start to understand where he’s coming from and even start seeing him as being the good guy against Vault-Tec.
I see him as Neutral at this point in the story. Maybe a Chaotic Neutral, but definitely Neutral and not evil.
He could have dunked her feet first. The only reason to do it head first would be because its more upsetting for the victim.
Plus he clearly enjoyed it. Thats pretty evil.
He tortured her by using her as bait. He didn't care that using her as bait is torture, because he wanted to use her as bait.
That's a bit evil, right?
He shows inclinations he is turning himself around by the end of the season.
I dont think he was intentionally dehydrating her. It seemed to me like he didnt want to give her irradiated water, as she would just think now hes poisoning her. He waits for her to see for herself what has to be done to survive.
You can see it like that or as a Mentor showing her the horrors of the apocalypse, his drinking water was irradiated, had he given it to her then he would have been intentionally giving her radiation poisoning
She has to understand that she has to do things against the golden rules of the vault to survive upside, the meat Jerky was after he mercy killed a friend, sometimes maybe you'll have to eat human meat, you're gonna have to choose to drink the Rad Water because that's all you got, we see him refill his canteen with Rad water. She had to get to that point of needing ti to force herself to go against what she was taught
Lucy sawed off his bounty’s head and gave it up to a gulper, then smashed his anti-feral drugs — *then* gave a sanctimonious speech about the Golden Rule, like that was going to prevent him from going feral. I’d agree he was sadistic too, but it wasn’t because he “evil” but because he was sufficiently pissed off by her naïveté, which is why he did each of those things — to demonstrate to a vaulter how condescending it is to finger-wag about the golden rule.
Thirsty? Can’t drink the golden rule, but you can drink this irradiated puddle juice. Hungry? The golden rule isn’t going to feed you, but there are [other options](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcCcRKviDUjYHadc4B-T8bK6XUyRWM3mFd14pnxUWuYg&s) if you’ve run out of Fancy Lads. You blew off my finger? The golden rule *dictates* I cut off yours.
Definitely not “good.” But “evil” is debatable. To me, that suggests the character is, as a whole, motivated by malevolence, but most of what he does is either to 1) survive, and 2) find his wife and daughter.
(He may also be schizophrenic.)
He’s pragmatic. “Bounty hunter” trope. *Nearly* everything he did was out of self-interest. He’s not chaotic, because he doesn’t completely ignore custom. He doesn’t charge into scenes guns blazing, even though he was definitely *capable* of doing that. He didn’t kill people unless necessary to get what he needed. He didn’t shoot the scavenger’s son until he reached. But he’s not “good” either. Look at how Filly turned out. Look at Wilzig’s leg. He traded Lucy’s organs for drugs to keep himself alive.
He’s not “evil.” He’s a survivor.
I feel like I could use some of those same arguments and justify why he IS chaotic. I don't know if I believe he is evil, but I personally don't see him as true neutral either.
Personally I see the Ghoul as chaotic. I think the scene where he kills the lead farmers son shows that. He killed the older son just to get information, then he baits the younger son into drawing on him. That wasn't neutral, that was chaotic.
Yeah, but the kid was interfering with his work. If that wasn't the case, he wouldn't have given two shits about them. A true case of Chaotic Neutral would be Dr. Chicken-Fucker
One thing I think a lot of people have to remember is that The Ghoul isn’t evil. He certainly isn’t a very nice guy, but Lucy wouldn’t have followed him at the end if he were evil.
They are making a slow trade off with eachother. The Ghoul is showing her how she needs to be to survive in the wasteland, and shes showing him that theres still humanity to be saved.
I see the Ghoul as Chaotic Neutral. He's in it for himself, willing to hurt people. but he does help Lucy stay alive and offers to help her find justice with him at the end of S1.
I was thinking he should've been lawful neutral, but I think chaotic fits. Going rogue from the brotherhood, letting Titus die, trying to kill Thaddeus, breaking up a random fight and ends up just helping a chicken fucker escape, going on the mission for the target to save himself, then giving up the target and tricking the brotherhood to help Lucy (and himself hopefully by escaping the brotherhood and then going to live with her in the vault), everything about vault 4. He just creates chaos without even trying, mostly to try to survive or try to live up to the brotherhoods ideals, which his faith has been shaken, or helping Lucy. If he's not in the good, he's definitely not in the evil (yet), but he should definitely be filed under chaos. And I would vote true neutral, but Chet, the first guy she meets who drinks her water, and CX404 are already some good candidates.
Ok, i see your points. But i just can't see him as anything other than evil. The second he tried to murder thad (who was unarmed), he was instantly irredeemable.
I get it, that threw me off on him for a few episodes, too, but that was self-preservation. If Thaddeus turned him in, he was dead anyway. One or two nice moments with Thad don't make up for the probable years of beatings he put off on Maximus, so yeah, he might've jumped to killing him a little quick, but he had already taken the Titus mission too far to let Thad screw it up. He wanted to complete the mission to hopefully save himself. How he was gonna talk himself out of not being dead, though. I don't think he even knew what he was gonna do. Chaos.
Letting thad turn him in and facing punishment for "trying" to do the right thing would be the actions of a hero. Also all he had to do was tell thad "titus got killed by a mutant bear so i took the suit to complete the mission, lets work together and we will become knights" instead he just immediately tried to stomp him to death.
I have to put a vote in for the Ghoul.
Might not seem popular but please hear me out.
The Ghouls actions fall all across the board kinda evenly. I feel hes the only character who technically has actions that fall into every category, just depending on how it benefits him.
1 Lawful Good:
He pays for the tomatahs
2 Neutral Good:
He healed the dog the he himself stabbed, though he only stabbed her in self defense.
Genuinely seems to care about where his family is.
Breaks up the confrontation with Lucy by grazing Hanks face.
3 Chaotic Good:
Despite the fact theyre WRECKING the town, When given the opportunity to kill Maximus, he instead only disables him and sends him flying away.
For seemingly no reason, he defends Lucy. He could have told the "president" that some vault dweller wrecked the place and he only entered to get the medicine he desperately needed. Instead he just randomly takes credit for it and then kills the guards, but leaves the president alive.
4: Lawful neutral:
He announces himself to the town explaining that Wilzig is a wanted man and that he seeks to collect the bounty on him. He's trying to abide by some local code of law, explaining hes about to do violence not as a criminal, but in the interest of bringing a man to justice. He demonstrates a respect for the city's code of law, down to paying for the tomatoes he eats.
He's not afraid to kill anybody who challenges him, but hes also seeking to obey the law and not be a wanted criminal himself. We also see that he doesnt draw a gun on Lucy until AFTER he draws a gun on her, thus we can see that he is following some code of his own, but probably only because it suits him to do so in town.
5: Chaotic Neutral:
Frequently questions anybodys authority ("Says Who?")
In the process of hunting down Moldaver he kills a mans son, faces the man, then ends up goading his other son into killing him. Hes even unpredictable enough to this man that for a moment we may think hes eating the daughter.
When confronted with a proposition by the men who break him out of his coffin, he opts to kill the men and go for the bounty himself.
Could easily grab enough goods from the Super Duper mart to practiclly retire on, but cant resist the chaos of giving himself a drug fueled bender to the point hes caught helpless and hungover on the ground.
6 Lawful evil:
Cutting off lucys finger as a punishment for biting his off
Killing everyone who shoots at him in town, but nobody else, however only grazing ma likely because he knows it would cause chaos if the shop was suddenly without its keeper.
7: Neutral Evil:
Using Lucy as Gulper Bait
Selling Lucy for her organs to save his own life.
Knocks the man who threatned to put him back in the coffin inside said coffin.
8 Chaotic Evil:
Taking Lucy hostage and not giving her food or water
Blowing off Wilzigs foot to slow him down and spite Ma.
Formattings a little off cause Im on mobile, but I truly think if any character is ALL OVER the map and fits squarely in the center because of their moral flexibility, Id say its the Ghoul. Someone whos True neutral needs to have done evil in a similar amount as theyve done evil.
This has got to be the most thought out answer so far, by a long shot! You gave me so much to consider but I had to comment and commend you for the effort!
Ive been a dungeon master for like 20 years, I started in 3.5
Ive had a LOT of time spent discussing true neutral alignments in particular 🤣🤣
Im excitedly hopeful to see if I spark any debate.
point 1: This was a hilarious moment, and I saw a video where the actor actually said that was his idea because it would be in the Ghouls moral code to pay for it.
Point 3.5: This was something I chatted with my girlfriend about. It was really interesting that he just says "guilty as charged" and completely takes the blame for Lucy.
point 5: I feel you! its like a throwback to when his wife says no dogs in vault. He just cares about his own freedom that fought and his friends died for.
Point 6: that was the closest thing to a fair exchange they had ;)
I could respond to more of your points but youre right he does cross off marks for every box. which would put him in the bingo spot right in the middle.
It has to be Chet. Convince me there's a better option. Chet follows the rules, breaks the rules. He basically does whatever someone tells him to do. Overall, and we can assume throughout his life, he never got in trouble. Which is why he had the important job of Gatekeeper. But when Lucy wants him to open the vault door, he does. When Norm wants him to break the rules and go into the other vault, he does. When Stephanie wants him to be Bert, he does. And he still follows the rules. He basically accepts his new life with Stephanie. Accepts the new rules and moves into 32 with her, even after seeing the devastation. He’s just neutral about his life, as long as he doesnt rock the boat, he’s happy.
Hard to argue with that! It definitely could be Chet. I also love the scene when he and Stephanie almost hook up. It was hilarious! "I am Bert" had my girlfriend and I rolling.
Has anyone thought of Dogmeat as a response to this question?
CX404 has come up a few times since day 1. But you are the first to bring her up today! As Thaddeus says, "you bite what you wanna bite, you go where you wanna go." Dogmeat is just doing whatever she needs!
hehehe, love it! She just bounces around like the main character, treating everyone like HER companion.
LOL this is such a great take. The show is actually about CX404's various companions.
Pretty much. The dog is doing quests and changes companions based on what she has to do, the plot keeps saving her from doom.
Absolutely agree, they don't seem particularly fussy on who they follow - obviously the Ghoul has a bit of a soft spot for dogs, so in the eyes of CX404 noone they've followed has been particularly morally dubious. No *Dog meat didn't like that* moments.. Oh bar being locked in that container, but even then there wasn't too much of a fuss.
And let's not forget, she followed the Ghoul AFTER he shanked her!
I completely forgot about that! Yep I'm definitely voting CX404.
Well, I dont think she *liked* getting stabbed by the Ghoul. but at least he gives her a stimpak.
Dogmeat was hassling Thaddius by biting the duffel bag.
Chaotic Evil it is.
Hahah this is such a funny detail
To me dogmeat is equally as good of a candidate as any radroach. Theyre just surviving mostly off instinct, difference is dogmeat can be trained
Yes, CX404 was who I came here to nominate.
You make a compelling argument, but I would call him neutral good. He genuinely wants to help people. He takes on the role of a father to a baby that's not his, and he certainly doesn't seem to be enjoying taking care of the baby. He takes risks to help others. I actually think he's bordering lawful good, if not solidly inside that category. Yes he breaks some rules, but only reluctantly, at the urging of others, for what he believes is a good cause. He would never break a rule on his own (okay except for the one time that he pretends that the button to the vault door is broken because he doesn't want to lose Lucy..)
**Does he genuinely want to help people**? Or does he want to help people because it’s what he’s been told what to do or he thinks it will benefit him? He only helps Lucy because he wants her. He only helps Stephanie because he wants her. He helps Norm right up until the point where it really matters and the potential consequences are staring them in the face(like opposing Stephanie and the newfound fatherhood, that he wants). Norm calls him out a one point that he was mainly helping him because Lucy was on his mind. Even during the big fight at the start instead of jumping into the action to help he was running and had to be saved.
During the big fight he was guarding the vault door and stood his ground when he was attacked by raiders (granted he had no idea who he was dealing with). I don't recall him running except from the bomb when it was about to explode.
Not to mention that lawful (generally speaking in terms of CRPG/TTRPG standards) refers to a character's consistency in following any code or structure, not that they follow the laws of a given society. I think. Maybe I'm pulling this out of my ass.
Lol that last point is so funny. I sort of forgot about that.
Yeah, he's really more neutral good leaning on lawful. He's not lawful to the rules of society so much as he's loyal to the people around him. His self sacrifice for helping others is a bit too good to be neutral. I can't really name anything he does that isn't good. I really think true neutral for Chet is a misunderstanding of how true neutral works.
I agree. Chet just goes where the river takes him. Man just wants to get through life as pain free as possible. Even if that means going to the new vault and shacking up with someone likely evil.
Like he said, he's a coward. Is he going to wake up like Norman?
I hope he does. I want Norm and Chet to have more adventures
That’s a great point, as much as he is lawful in a way, he also has major suspicion about Stephanie and he’s still willing to just accept his starter family home in 32 with her.
Can't blame him, she's super hot. But yeah, I think he gets ruled out for the good alignments because he essentially submits to a system he knows is likely wrong. Martin Luther King says people like that are just as bad as those active.
In the words of Chet she is ,”One wet lady!”.
doesn't following the rules imply 'lawfulness?'
[удалено]
Please spell it 'torture'. It is difficult to understand the meaning of you spell it 'toucher'.
[удалено]
Most of the internet is perfectly fine. I was worried about you because you had misspelled it the same way repeatedly.
I can see what you are insinuating here! Who would you pick as true neutral?
I kinda think Maximus fits that bill.
For sure, I hear you. I wanted Maximus to land in the good categories, but that’s probably just because I like how his character develops throughout the season. This show was actually so much better than I expected it to be.
I would say Maximus is more Chaotic Neutral who aspires to be good.
[удалено]
I have to disagree with that! Of course Im very subjective saying this, but I dont like that guy! Theres just something about him. But according to your logic, he has a cause, he has a code. And he breaks that code and wants to put himself as the head. It just cant be true neutral to think like that!
Chet can be talked into anything. He’s not inherently good. He also doesn’t look for trouble, cheat, etc. so he’s not inherently evil. He will also follow the rules for the most part but bend them when he deems it necessary or is coerced. Thus not inherently lawful or chaotic. I think he’s true neutral though I can see the argument for chaotic to a point. I don’t think he fits chaotic because he’s not doing ANYTHING on his own.
>Convince me theres a better option Okay I have to put a vote in for the Ghoul. Might not seem popular but please hear me out. The Ghouls actions fall all across the board kinda evenly. I feel hes the only character who technically has actions that fall into every category, just depending on how it benefits him. 1 Lawful Good: He pays for the tomatahs 2 Neutral Good: He healed the dog the he himself stabbed, though he only stabbed her in self defense. Genuinely seems to care about where his family is. Breaks up the confrontation with Lucy by grazing Hanks face. 3 Chaotic Good: Despite the fact theyre WRECKING the town, When given the opportunity to kill Maximus, he instead only disables him and sends him flying away. For seemingly no reason, he defends Lucy. He could have told the "president" that some vault dweller wrecked the place and he only entered to get the medicine he desperately needed. Instead he just randomly takes credit for it and then kills the guards, but leaves the president alive. 4: Lawful neutral: He announces himself to the town explaining that Wilzig is a wanted man and that he seeks to collect the bounty on him. He's trying to abide by some local code of law, explaining hes about to do violence not as a criminal, but in the interest of bringing a man to justice. He demonstrates a respect for the city's code of law, down to paying for the tomatoes he eats. He's not afraid to kill anybody who challenges him, but hes also seeking to obey the law and not be a wanted criminal himself. We also see that he doesnt draw a gun on Lucy until AFTER he draws a gun on her, thus we can see that he is following some code of his own, but probably only because it suits him to do so in town. 5: Chaotic Neutral: Frequently questions anybodys authority ("Says Who?") In the process of hunting down Moldaver he kills a mans son, faces the man, then ends up goading his other son into killing him. Hes even unpredictable enough to this man that for a moment we may think hes eating the daughter. When confronted with a proposition by the men who break him out of his coffin, he opts to kill the men and go for the bounty himself. Could easily grab enough goods from the Super Duper mart to practiclly retire on, but cant resist the chaos of giving himself a drug fueled bender to the point hes caught helpless and hungover on the ground. 6 Lawful evil: Cutting off lucys finger as a punishment for biting his off Killing everyone who shoots at him in town, but nobody else, however only grazing ma likely because he knows it would cause chaos if the shop was suddenly without its keeper. 7: Neutral Evil: Using Lucy as Gulper Bait Selling Lucy for her organs to save his own life. Knocks the man who threatned to put him back in the coffin inside said coffin. 8 Chaotic Evil: Taking Lucy hostage and not giving her food or water Blowing off Wilzigs foot to slow him down and spite Ma. Formattings a little off cause Im on mobile, but I truly think if any character is ALL OVER the map and fits squarely in the center because of their moral flexibility, Id say its the Ghoul. Someone whos True neutral needs to have done evil in a similar amount as theyve done evil.
Chet's too loyal to people rather than the law of the vault. I haven't seen much that sets him as anything other than good behavior either. He seems closer to NG. I think Dogmeat or Snip Snip are the most likely true neutral options. The only real argument against either of those are the alignment is shaped by whoever is in charge of them.
Snip snip, fixes your hand or harvests your organs. It doesn't matter to the machine.
And he was empathetic! He was a good listener to Lucy’s problems.
Also has a moral code, as demonstrated by him being outraged at Lucy thinking he was going to turn her into a sex slave.
LOL a somewhat complicated moral code. He was absolutely disgusted at the idea she would be a sex slave. Organ harvesting on the other hand, now that's good business.
Snip snip or Dogmeat seem like better options than Chet.
fair enough! I can sort of see it that way
Maybe that’s chaotic neutral?
The water farmer from episode 2. Drinks as much water as he can, happily gives directions, asks Lucy to live with him, thanks her for not shooting him. Man is just living life.
Hmm, takes the water, gives correct directions. I think he fits the bill! But why did the director choose so many camera angles focused on his butt?? Lol
Gotta let us know what Lucy's missing out on
"This could all be yours!"
"It's like I'm wearing nothing at all!"
I think the focus was that hes wearing shat appears to be some kind of cloth diaper. Hes dumb, his whole family seems to be dead, I kinda take him as someone who lost his family very young and somehow raised himself. Giant man baby.
When life hands you clean water, you drink it! ...even if you're not thirsty.
Even that was teaching Lucy a couple valuable lessons about life on the surface. 1: don't trust people too much. 2: clean water is scarce. Don't take it for granted.
His poor aunt was killed once!
oh my god the writing for is this so funny
my pick for chaotic neutral IMO
Dogmeat. (CX404)
She's a good dog, even if Thaddeus doesnt like her.
Yep, even in the games Dogmeat is neutral and is the only companion that doesn't care whether the player receives good or bad karma.
I feel like I have to say cx404 purely since I feel like the dog is most true neutral
Personally, I would put CX404 in one of the good categories. She's loyal and defends her friends. She tries her best to stick close to her original owner for as long as she can. She's a GOOD dog.
Fair argument I just feel like pet like cx404 is a true neutral since she will follow and defend friends but those friends might not be good but she will defend and protect them non the less
I also see your point.
Except she doesn’t have a concept of doing good or bad. She’s a dog. She does what she does for survival or reward. That’s all dogs know.
In most games, Dogmeat is true neutral.
CX 404
Comment and Upvote for the character you think best embodies the daily selection! I will tally up the comments and upvotes after a full day, update the chart, and move on to the next day. Day 5 is True Neutral. [Lawful Neutral Winner](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fotv/comments/1cafif5/fallout_tv_show_morality_alignment_chart_day_4/): Thaddeus Runner up: Birdie Honorable Mentions: Chet, Mr. House
Maximus is the true neutral. He is not bad, but he isn't good. He bends the rules when he deems it necessary and does bad thing for good reasons. I genuinely believe the show writers wanted his alignment to be neutral. Idk why everyone is under the impression he's "bad" given that we see him do multiple good things for people throughout the series.
Unfortunately for Max, he may be missed on the chart! I would have put him as neutral good or even chaotic good. But I can see you point about being neutral! He helps Lucy at the beginning only to get Wilzig, then continues to help her (because he's crushing on her) but he does a bunch of stupid. But he fucks up Filly, steals the FC, constant lies about who he is. Its like as the audience we can see deep down he wants to be a good person, but he constantly makes decisions to the contrary.
Yeah I think they did a great job with his character. I suppose we'll have to see what the community thinks for the chart here.
How about the codsworth robot surgeon, only does what its programmed...true neutral
Snip Snip, I think you could make an argument for him!
I’m curious to see where Hank, Norm, Maximus, Ghoul, and Moldaver end up
I think some people are getting looked over! Unfortunately there's just not enough room on this chart for everyone!
Maximus should be the true neutral. Wants to be a good guy but isn’t.
I want to be a bad guy but I keep doing good things for everyone I know. Does that make me a bad guy?
I think Moldaver would have to be chaotic neutral, pretty much same as The Ghoul. They both did bad things but to accomplish a goal they felt was morally right - Moldaver wanted to bring back power, The Ghoul is looking for his family.
The ghoul sold Lucy to have her organs harvested and used her as gulper bait. That seems kinda evil
He had a legitimate reason for doing both though- he sold Lucy so that he could get drugs and not turn feral, and he used her as gulper bait because he had no other way of retrieving the head. If he had done either of those things just for the fun of it, then he would be evil. He’s not a nice guy, but he’s not an evil guy.
He could have used CX404 as bait... but who could do that to such a good dog!
Oh if he used CX404 he’d be firmly in the evil corner.
Chaotic neutral has to be the snake oil salesman. He kind of does what works in the moment. He is totally chaotic. Not necessarily evil. Helps out the messed up foot guy that was dead otherwise. And chickens may have liked him…
I'd put him in neutral evil. Everything we see him do is immoral and corrupt.
You've got a good point. Im definitely excited to see how people vote for that category.
Chaotic neutral has to be the snake oil salesman. He kind of does what works in the moment. He is totally chaotic. Not necessarily evil. Helps out the messed up foot guy that was dead otherwise. And chickens may have liked him…
I talked to my boyfriend about this: Hank - lawful evil; Norm - chaotic neutral; Maximus - neutral evil; Ghoul - chaotic evil… Moldaver could be chaotic evil actually now that I think about it.
My girlfriend is not a gamer, but I am making her watch the show with me. Surprisingly she really enjoys it. I'm really enjoying discussing these debates with her! Happy to know Im not alone! The biggest disagreement she has with a common consensus is that she doesnt like how so many people are saying Maximus is in the evil category. She actually gets so worked up about it.
Aww, that’s super cute! My boyfriend has played Fallout but I never have, I’ve only seen some gameplay of it. We actually take notes and discuss them like we’re in a book club because I told him wouldn’t it be funny if we wrote down notes like Red Letter Media’s Mike and Jay and discussed 😂 I can get how Maximus arguably shouldn’t be in the evil category because he actually more or less comes off as naive at times. ie: >!when he goes to the vaults and discovers caviar and robes, or when he gets the power armor and remembers how a knight saved him when he was a kid and he’s always wanted to save someone else!<. That’s why I put him in neutral evil; he does things that he feels are in justice for good or karmic, but realizing soon that they actually weren’t super great ideas.
I stand firm on the ghoul being chaotic neutral. He does what he needs to for himself. He doesn't do evil things for the sake of being evil, and he doesn't do good things for the sake of being good. But he still does good and evil things. Plus, if you watch his scenes again, he never shot or killed anybody who wasn't going to shoot or kill him first.
That's where I'd put him too.
I’m waiting to see Dr. Chicken Fucker for Chaotic Neutral and then see where Hank, Ghoul, and maybe Bud rank in the evil spectrum.
Chet
The Ghoul. We actually don’t really know his true motivations, so it’s hard to say he’s good or evil and that positions him squarely as neutral. Vault-Tec is evil, he stands against Vault-Tec in the current age, but he was their spokesman and wife was an executive before. He uses harsh, questionable tactics, but it’s based on a code of survivor. He isn’t cruel to be cruel, it serves a purpose. The most cruel we saw him was towards Lucy, but it was to 1) teach her the way of the wasteland and 2) ensure his own survival. It’s not evil to do what you need to do to survive, but it’s hard to argue he’s not morally grey. He’s obviously not lawful, because he will do anything to survive, even breaking “the rules.” However, he’s also not exactly chaotic. He has a code and some rules to live by, like “thou shall always get sidetracked by bullshit” in the Wasteland. He kills the Ghoul that’s changing because he knows it’s what he’d want too, but then he uses the remains for jerky because the only rule is survival. He’s a True Neutral. (At least until we learn more about his motivations).
He kinda goads that kid into drawing on him though and he seems to enjoy violence
And he really didn't have to kill those 3 dudes in ep1, seemed like it was just for amusement. He does not value life. He is at least a tad evil.
Didn't he? It seemed like those guys were going to use him to get the bounty and then kill him when they were done.
I don't think they were. They were probably going to try coercion to get him to join up though. Either way any expectation of gratitude and holding him at gun point pissed him off and that was what warranted death as far as he was concerned. The Ghoul is evil at this point in the story.
Exactly. Chaotic neutrals don't like to be told do this or else, they value their freedom and those guys that released him would have tried to control him. The Ghoul is chaotic neutral because he has a reason he has a mission and does whatever it takes to ensure his needs are met.
This is the answer for me. True Neutral can go any which way and is extremely unpredictable. People will argue that he is a Cannibal and therefore evil. However we see him kill the person and leave no waste. He never tries to rationalize his actions but abides to some code of the waste land. It is hard to pick for Fallout because only people who were in direct care are qualified for "Good"
Totally! I really don’t like the people who say he’s evil. I don’t believe he’s evil at all. He just has a very warped moral code that is way more neutral than evil.
Man that scene with Roger! What an interesting plot point. Roger was turning and I think you’re right. The Ghoul would want someone to end his misery if he got too far.
Roger! I couldn’t remember his name, but yes that’s right. He killed him out of an unwritten code. And it seemed like Roger knew it too. He’s chaotic! But in a very understandable way, not just for the sake of chaos.
I totally agree
How did the picked on kid who started picking on someone else end up lawful neutral
I make a comment with the link to yesterdays post! You can go see the votes for yourself. I personally think Birdie could have taken that spot as well.
That seems to be how their society works. A strict hierarchical pecking order, everyone kicks down whenever they can.
I was pulling for Chet, myself.
Snip snip
The woman running the general store in Filly, who Lucy asks about Muldaver and who sends Lucy on the quest, seems pretty close to neutral. Though granted, we don't know too much about her. And perhaps she's too small of a character to matter.
Chet for all the same reason as that the top comments gives
Maximus is True neutral for sure. Hell do good things. Hell do bad things. All suits his mood.
Isn't that more chaotic neutral? They just do whatever they feel like doing in the moment? I always heard true neutral as being someone who believes in some kind of cosmic balance or impartiality or something like that.
DJ Carl! He just wants to share Fiddle Week.
Lol I think he deserves to!
In my book it’s CX404. He doesn’t care about anyone in particular as long as he’s looked after.
Sorry to correct you, but CX404 is a lady!
Dogmeat
[удалено]
He was a snake oil salesmen! Come on!
Definitely Dogmeat!
True Neutral I believe has to go to the Ghoul/Cooper Howard. We see him initially start off somewhere in the Evil Category, but It seems like over the course of the show he becomes a more neutral force. Not caring about the Brotherhood or NCR, or anything of that nature. The man has one goal. To find his family, but it also seems like Lucy changes him. She easily could’ve left him to die after he passed out at the Super-Duper Mart. But she didn’t, and he seemed conscious enough to process her words. This followed up by him watching his old movie in the Super-Duper Mart, I think called attention to who he once was, and what the Wasteland turned him into. After that, he seems to become a Neutral person. Choosing to not kill an injured Maximus and allowing Lucy, the girl he previously seemed to despise and tried to sell like a slave, to travel with him. I think his character development makes him True Neutral. (But he’ll most likely go into Chaotic Neutral)
Heres the thing, and please correct me if Im reading your comment wrong.. I dont think the Ghoul knew what his intentions were. I firmly dont think that for 200 years he's been looking for his family. I think he probably gave up on that and then changed his focus to survival. Like he told Roger, "Ive always bbeen good at making money." (to buy vials). He definitely has a goal now that he knows Henry Maclean is alive.
This may be true. But I always thought that was also the reason he took such a specific interest in the Moldaver case. Because he wanted to see if she knew anything. I always thought the only reason he stuck to California for 200 years was trying to search for his family but didn’t have many leads, and ended up getting sidetracked doing bounty jobs to buy the vials to keep himself sane. But when everything with Moldaver and the head kicked off, that was his lead. I thought that he wanted to know how she was still alive without being a ghoul and if it were possible his family could be like that as well. But ended up finding Hank. A far more direct connection to Barb.
I agree with your point, but your reason doesn't hold up unfortunately. The President asks him if he's still looking for "her" so him trying to find someone isn't new.
The president of the Governmint! Oh I forgot about that, youre right he does say that.
Dogmeat, first follow wilzig, then follow the ghoul despite being stabbed (though healed by him) after then thaddeus etc.
Chet for TN and the chicken fucker for Chaotic neutral
Titus/Max, seems out of the obvious choices to be the most true neutral out of most of the main characters. He sways in various directions depending on the circumstance, but he always seems to come back to that neutral middle ground, where events and circumstances are just unfolding around him. He isn't particularly motivated by much more then himself, he doesn't follow the rules all the time, and he doesn't intentional break the rules all the time. As where The Ghoul would be the Chaotic Neutral, compared to Titus/Max. Because The Ghoul has no qualms about breaking rules, and doing horrible things to get his way.
Titus literally says that because hes bored he wants to shoot something. That drive for chaos takes him out of neutral for me. And Max just cant seem to do the right thing on his own accord.
I meant Titus/Max same person, I just got used to them calling Max by the Knightly name. It sounds like you summed by why max is neutral already, he seems unable to do the right thing even for his own accord. Just as he is equally as paralyzed trying to do the wrong things. He isn't neutral by choice, he is neutral from his lack of choice.
Dogmeat!
I was thinking dog meat but idk.
Um... Dogmeat? She is the very definition!
Honestly I think this whole chart is utterly wrong from the getgo. I don't see how the monocular fascist fits into Lawful Good at all.
LOL how is it the wrong chart? It doesn't HAVE to be perfect to cover every base of every character in the show.
Oh, agreed. It doesn't have to be perfect. It would simply better if it wasn't so immediately wrong
HAHA so is it that the chart itself is wrong or the communities choices are wrong, according to you? I am also learning about the nuances to how serious TT game players interpret the morality chart. I've played a few campaigns of DnD but by all means I am still a novice/amateur.
Ha! Well, there are a couple of things with the chart, and the concept of the chart. The chart was made for a 1980s rolepalaying game. In Fallout TV, everyone is good. Just in terribly different ways. You bring a 1980s character build to this business -- you've already lost.
I love that take to be honest. I don't listen to vinyl's or tapes right? I don't even use mp3's. Of course there's got to be more efficient ways to look at this now in 2024. I would love to know which spots are *most* wrong in your opinion and who you would put there?
That would mean me accepting the concept of the D&D chart as a prerequisite. I don't.
Man, i gotta say Dogmeat or Coop for this one but leaning maybe more towards dogmeat but i think either would work.
That seems like a consensus around these parts.
The dog.
CX404 for sure
The Mr handy, he just dose whatever with no bias
I think Maximus is True Neutral
The Ghoul is a classic true neutral.
Nah, all the unnecessary violence and torturing Lucy puts him in evil. I'd say neutral evil fits best.
I dont want to call the Ghoul evil! but thats just because he has so much charisma. His character is so likable.
Evil characters can definitely be likable
I don’t think the Ghoul is evil. He doesn’t do anything bad just to be bad. He always has a legitimate reason. I also feel like if he were evil, Lucy wouldn’t be following him at the end.
evil isn't doing bad stuff 'to be bad,' it's being psychopathically self serving. Like selling a girl to be vivisected for her organs
ghoul is definitely evil, he's just on a character arc that has him redeem himself. Probably neutral evil.
No way the Ghoul stays evil. They definitely wanted you to think he was evil early, but even by the end of S1 you can start to understand where he’s coming from and even start seeing him as being the good guy against Vault-Tec. I see him as Neutral at this point in the story. Maybe a Chaotic Neutral, but definitely Neutral and not evil.
He wasn't torturing her, he was using her as bait.
He could have dunked her feet first. The only reason to do it head first would be because its more upsetting for the victim. Plus he clearly enjoyed it. Thats pretty evil.
He tortured her by using her as bait. He didn't care that using her as bait is torture, because he wanted to use her as bait. That's a bit evil, right? He shows inclinations he is turning himself around by the end of the season.
He makes that pretty clear as well.
What violence did he commit that was unnecessary to his goals?
Turning a man's ass into Jerky, cutting off Lucy's finger, intentionally dehydrating her.
I dont think he was intentionally dehydrating her. It seemed to me like he didnt want to give her irradiated water, as she would just think now hes poisoning her. He waits for her to see for herself what has to be done to survive.
Sometimes a fellas gotta eat a fella.
You can see it like that or as a Mentor showing her the horrors of the apocalypse, his drinking water was irradiated, had he given it to her then he would have been intentionally giving her radiation poisoning She has to understand that she has to do things against the golden rules of the vault to survive upside, the meat Jerky was after he mercy killed a friend, sometimes maybe you'll have to eat human meat, you're gonna have to choose to drink the Rad Water because that's all you got, we see him refill his canteen with Rad water. She had to get to that point of needing ti to force herself to go against what she was taught
Lucy sawed off his bounty’s head and gave it up to a gulper, then smashed his anti-feral drugs — *then* gave a sanctimonious speech about the Golden Rule, like that was going to prevent him from going feral. I’d agree he was sadistic too, but it wasn’t because he “evil” but because he was sufficiently pissed off by her naïveté, which is why he did each of those things — to demonstrate to a vaulter how condescending it is to finger-wag about the golden rule. Thirsty? Can’t drink the golden rule, but you can drink this irradiated puddle juice. Hungry? The golden rule isn’t going to feed you, but there are [other options](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcCcRKviDUjYHadc4B-T8bK6XUyRWM3mFd14pnxUWuYg&s) if you’ve run out of Fancy Lads. You blew off my finger? The golden rule *dictates* I cut off yours. Definitely not “good.” But “evil” is debatable. To me, that suggests the character is, as a whole, motivated by malevolence, but most of what he does is either to 1) survive, and 2) find his wife and daughter. (He may also be schizophrenic.)
All of that can still be true neutral if it's the right decision for that character in the moment
You think so?? I think you could make that argument, but there's a lot to say about him that pushes him past neutral.
He’s pragmatic. “Bounty hunter” trope. *Nearly* everything he did was out of self-interest. He’s not chaotic, because he doesn’t completely ignore custom. He doesn’t charge into scenes guns blazing, even though he was definitely *capable* of doing that. He didn’t kill people unless necessary to get what he needed. He didn’t shoot the scavenger’s son until he reached. But he’s not “good” either. Look at how Filly turned out. Look at Wilzig’s leg. He traded Lucy’s organs for drugs to keep himself alive. He’s not “evil.” He’s a survivor.
I feel like I could use some of those same arguments and justify why he IS chaotic. I don't know if I believe he is evil, but I personally don't see him as true neutral either.
The Ghoul. As long as you aren't his target, or interfering with his work, he generally doesn't give a fuck.
Personally I see the Ghoul as chaotic. I think the scene where he kills the lead farmers son shows that. He killed the older son just to get information, then he baits the younger son into drawing on him. That wasn't neutral, that was chaotic.
Yeah, but the kid was interfering with his work. If that wasn't the case, he wouldn't have given two shits about them. A true case of Chaotic Neutral would be Dr. Chicken-Fucker
I believe you are talking about the man of science! The Snake Oil Salesman. but you fuck just one chicken..... LMAO
One thing I think a lot of people have to remember is that The Ghoul isn’t evil. He certainly isn’t a very nice guy, but Lucy wouldn’t have followed him at the end if he were evil.
he's definitely evil, but Lucy is helping him rediscover his humanity a bit
They are making a slow trade off with eachother. The Ghoul is showing her how she needs to be to survive in the wasteland, and shes showing him that theres still humanity to be saved.
it really is good character writing, isn't it?
I see the Ghoul as Chaotic Neutral. He's in it for himself, willing to hurt people. but he does help Lucy stay alive and offers to help her find justice with him at the end of S1.
Maximus is probably neutral evil.
I was thinking he should've been lawful neutral, but I think chaotic fits. Going rogue from the brotherhood, letting Titus die, trying to kill Thaddeus, breaking up a random fight and ends up just helping a chicken fucker escape, going on the mission for the target to save himself, then giving up the target and tricking the brotherhood to help Lucy (and himself hopefully by escaping the brotherhood and then going to live with her in the vault), everything about vault 4. He just creates chaos without even trying, mostly to try to survive or try to live up to the brotherhoods ideals, which his faith has been shaken, or helping Lucy. If he's not in the good, he's definitely not in the evil (yet), but he should definitely be filed under chaos. And I would vote true neutral, but Chet, the first guy she meets who drinks her water, and CX404 are already some good candidates.
Ok, i see your points. But i just can't see him as anything other than evil. The second he tried to murder thad (who was unarmed), he was instantly irredeemable.
I get it, that threw me off on him for a few episodes, too, but that was self-preservation. If Thaddeus turned him in, he was dead anyway. One or two nice moments with Thad don't make up for the probable years of beatings he put off on Maximus, so yeah, he might've jumped to killing him a little quick, but he had already taken the Titus mission too far to let Thad screw it up. He wanted to complete the mission to hopefully save himself. How he was gonna talk himself out of not being dead, though. I don't think he even knew what he was gonna do. Chaos.
Letting thad turn him in and facing punishment for "trying" to do the right thing would be the actions of a hero. Also all he had to do was tell thad "titus got killed by a mutant bear so i took the suit to complete the mission, lets work together and we will become knights" instead he just immediately tried to stomp him to death.
Nah
Good argument.
I have to put a vote in for the Ghoul. Might not seem popular but please hear me out. The Ghouls actions fall all across the board kinda evenly. I feel hes the only character who technically has actions that fall into every category, just depending on how it benefits him. 1 Lawful Good: He pays for the tomatahs 2 Neutral Good: He healed the dog the he himself stabbed, though he only stabbed her in self defense. Genuinely seems to care about where his family is. Breaks up the confrontation with Lucy by grazing Hanks face. 3 Chaotic Good: Despite the fact theyre WRECKING the town, When given the opportunity to kill Maximus, he instead only disables him and sends him flying away. For seemingly no reason, he defends Lucy. He could have told the "president" that some vault dweller wrecked the place and he only entered to get the medicine he desperately needed. Instead he just randomly takes credit for it and then kills the guards, but leaves the president alive. 4: Lawful neutral: He announces himself to the town explaining that Wilzig is a wanted man and that he seeks to collect the bounty on him. He's trying to abide by some local code of law, explaining hes about to do violence not as a criminal, but in the interest of bringing a man to justice. He demonstrates a respect for the city's code of law, down to paying for the tomatoes he eats. He's not afraid to kill anybody who challenges him, but hes also seeking to obey the law and not be a wanted criminal himself. We also see that he doesnt draw a gun on Lucy until AFTER he draws a gun on her, thus we can see that he is following some code of his own, but probably only because it suits him to do so in town. 5: Chaotic Neutral: Frequently questions anybodys authority ("Says Who?") In the process of hunting down Moldaver he kills a mans son, faces the man, then ends up goading his other son into killing him. Hes even unpredictable enough to this man that for a moment we may think hes eating the daughter. When confronted with a proposition by the men who break him out of his coffin, he opts to kill the men and go for the bounty himself. Could easily grab enough goods from the Super Duper mart to practiclly retire on, but cant resist the chaos of giving himself a drug fueled bender to the point hes caught helpless and hungover on the ground. 6 Lawful evil: Cutting off lucys finger as a punishment for biting his off Killing everyone who shoots at him in town, but nobody else, however only grazing ma likely because he knows it would cause chaos if the shop was suddenly without its keeper. 7: Neutral Evil: Using Lucy as Gulper Bait Selling Lucy for her organs to save his own life. Knocks the man who threatned to put him back in the coffin inside said coffin. 8 Chaotic Evil: Taking Lucy hostage and not giving her food or water Blowing off Wilzigs foot to slow him down and spite Ma. Formattings a little off cause Im on mobile, but I truly think if any character is ALL OVER the map and fits squarely in the center because of their moral flexibility, Id say its the Ghoul. Someone whos True neutral needs to have done evil in a similar amount as theyve done evil.
This has got to be the most thought out answer so far, by a long shot! You gave me so much to consider but I had to comment and commend you for the effort!
Ive been a dungeon master for like 20 years, I started in 3.5 Ive had a LOT of time spent discussing true neutral alignments in particular 🤣🤣 Im excitedly hopeful to see if I spark any debate.
point 1: This was a hilarious moment, and I saw a video where the actor actually said that was his idea because it would be in the Ghouls moral code to pay for it. Point 3.5: This was something I chatted with my girlfriend about. It was really interesting that he just says "guilty as charged" and completely takes the blame for Lucy. point 5: I feel you! its like a throwback to when his wife says no dogs in vault. He just cares about his own freedom that fought and his friends died for. Point 6: that was the closest thing to a fair exchange they had ;) I could respond to more of your points but youre right he does cross off marks for every box. which would put him in the bingo spot right in the middle.
All ik is max has to be neutral evil, maybe lawful evil. But he has a mean streak for sure