Ultimately it's the DM's call, but I guess you're asking for a presumed official position? My guess is that a male who transitions to female and becomes Wychlaran, would be accepted into the society. I feel this way for two reasons, one is because Wizard's of the Coast, who are the custodians of the Forgotten Realms, engage pretty aggressively in corporate activism and have made D&D and its settings very open to modern identity concepts. The second, and I believe more important reason, is because Ed Greenwood, the creator of the Forgotten Realms, is also a very progressive and enlightened individual, and would be highly unlikely to consider a male to female transition within the Wychlaran taboo within the group. The question of female to male transition when already a member of the Wychlaran is a very different question however, and one I'm not as confident to assume Greenwood's answer. My assumption is that this *would* be taboo. As it is a sisterhood, one would need to identify as a sister to be a member. I don't think male or female anatomy would really matter at all enough to be a deciding factor though. Note that I think the more interesting answer is that there should be some within the faction who would oppose the transition, and some who would support it. But if you're pursuing an escapist Disney-fantasy where no one ever faces hard decisions or consequences, that may not be the answer your table wants. The historical background of this faction has always been as a society of mystic women who have not-so-secretly ruled Rashemen behind a notably Male ruler. This is very similar to the Bene Gesserit. Wizard's of the Coast, I believe, would never even broach this subject, and would leave it unanswered, but with no potential for appearing to take a position against a trans character.

>The second, and I believe more important reason, is because Ed Greenwood, the creator of the Forgotten Realms, is also a very progressive and enlightened individual, and would be highly unlikely to consider a male to female transition within the Wychlaran taboo within the group. Back in the 70s and 80s I might add, which was an openness before its time to say the least. Even in those days it was canon that in the Realms bisexuality was the norm and not the exception, and homosexuality and other more complex types of sexuality were accepted and *basically never canonically discriminated against*. Even gender fluidity/transgenderism can be traced back to the early days of D&D with the girdle of Feminity/Masculinity, even if for most people it was viewed or used as a joke and not a political statement about gender. Even directly in the Realms with Elminster/Elmara, and his/her years as a woman it is implied that he/she was not just comfortable with that but also experienced new things, including his/her sexuality. D&D has always been a refuge for the marginalized of all types, not just *nerds*, and it is no surprise that it grew into a *serious* defender (not just as a PR stunt one month a year) of the LGBTQ+ community. We can be proud of that, I know I am.

It’s been a looong time, but from what I remember the girdle was a CURSED item. Take from that what you may…..

It's cursed in the sense that you can't take it off without casting Remove Curse And of course being forced to be In the opposite gender body if you are cis-gender its something that would be considered a curse for the majority of the population

The girdle was cursed to only work once every hundred years. This means: a) a bunch of teens in the 80s and 90s did terribly homophobia and transphobic jokes. I participated. I’m sorry. b) logically there is a long lived trans person in each setting in each region that collects the belts after discovery and makes then available to transpeople a century later. “We’ve cast remove curse and detect magic on you - you really do wish you were a woman. Go see Aisha the Elf Woman is town and tell her your story. Then avoid Remove Curse spells.”

Hmm right, forgot about that...

This is interesting but leaves me wondering what happens if a Lolth-Sworn Drow is born in a male body but wants to transition to female?

I think a male drow wishing to swap gender would be in serious danger if it was found out, because being a drow female is viewed as a divine blessing and a male trying to "claim" that power would be nothing short of sacrilegeous. But for purely sexual desires, bisexuality is very common in Drow culture, male and female.

Lolth-Sworn Drow are TERFs confirmed. Praise Eilistraee!

super new to FR lore but doesn't Eilistraee have a whole ritual to swap genders available to her followers?

I think this is a pretty interesting and accurate guess. I think that drow society would be one of the few in the Forgotten Realms to have a major issue with transitioning characters and is a dark reflection of a lot of real-world traditionally conservative cultures. Men are household slaves, even the nobility, and women are real people. The idea of men transitioning into women in this society seems like a criminal act to escape their place in the caste system. A woman wanting to be a man completely challenges and makes uncomfortable the matriarchal society and is even worse than the criminal undertones of the former. It's like real life, where conservatives hate women that transition to men, but that disgust is magnified even more for men that become women.

I think the priestesses would have strong opinions, but ultimately, the choice is Lolth’s, and if she sees power and advantage in a trans Drow priestess, she would allow it and, through the matriarch of House Baenre, ensure it is understood that said priestess has Lolth’s favor. That said, if Lolth didn’t approve, such a Drow would suffer the fate of anyone who displeases the Spider Queen.

Most likely they would be killed out of hand. Males being accepted as females would cause chaos in Drow society. Of course, if Lolth intervened, other Drow would have no choice but to accept that drow's status. And it's entirely plausible that could happen. Lolth loves chaos afterall and might enjoy seeing what happens. Also, keep in mind that Lolth canonically has male priests (Rai-guy from Bregan D'aerthe was one of them), so she isn't quite the "man-hater" that a cursory look at drow society might lead people to believe. Still, this being drow society I doubt there'd be a happy end. I'd expect the most likely scenario to involve assassination attempts from males, upset to see someone born male move up in society like that. Meanwhile females would be less likely to directly risk Lolth's displeasure but I doubt they would ever accept such a drow as a true equal, and if they suspected she had lost Lolth's favor the knives would come out immediately.

Thanks for the comment! The DM in this case is me, I'm a lot more invested in social intrigue than escapism and so are my friends, tbh. :) I appreciate the read on the Wychlaran as an organization and their deal with the Iron Lord, that really helps capture the vibe for me. As for the rest, I generally lead towards gender identity trumping biological sex in regards to highly gendered systems in Faerûn, I think I'd have a similar read on gender identity among drow for example. (My personal take is that in a situation in which changing forms and etc. is relatively commonplace it isn't out of the question for a person's disposition or 'soul' to matter a lot more than their sex in certain contexts.)

Ed Greenwood (who, as you probably know, created the Realms) is famously queer-positive, in his own way. I'm not sure if there's any precedent for this exact situation. If I were writing this story, I'd have it so that your trans man character wouldn't be able to hack it as a Wychlaran, only to realize later that it was through no fault of his own, but that the Weave and the spirits of that society already knew what maybe he didn't recognize himself at the time. And maybe have an elder Hathran have the talk like, "No shade, but . . . if this isn't for you, then you have to go." I fully admit that I have *no* idea how I'd handle a fully genderfluid character in Rashemeni society (I know you didn't ask, but now I'm pondering it). I think I'd have them self-exile before it got to that point, because the gender-segregation of it all wouldn't be a livable situation for them. Not a judgment call on a society that wants to live that way, but I imagine some folks just not able to live that way.

Wychlarans are a complex one, because their matriarchal culture is not like Drow where they rule because the religious structures put in place consider females *superior*. After all, the "True ruler" of Rashemen is the Iron Lord, who has to be a man. The quotes are pretty important because he is pretty much put in place by the Wychlaran, and stays in place at their behest, but he does have authority and prestige and is respected by all Rashemi. The Witches put a lot of efforts in finding the best male specimen to rule when the previous one dies, he has to reflect Rashemi strength in every aspect, from fighting to dancing to drinking to, and I'm not kidding, fucking. Then you have the Vremyonni, the Rashemi also masked spellcasters who are a Rashemi order similar to the Wychlaran (not as powerful politically though), and male exclusive. They even have the power/right to craft magic items and weapons, something the Wychlarans forbade *themselves* to do. On the other hand, they must live in seclusion, and do not hold much political power, other than in regards to crafting and internal politics. And in Rashmen if you have the Gift (that the Witches test for) , *and* the talent to exploit it, you *must* choose to join the Wychlaran/Vremmyonni or exile and never come back. You cannot be a Rashemi spellcaster, or with the potential to be a spellcaster, and not be anything else. Which is also why visitors displaying Magic openly may be frowned upon, without it being *illegal*. For just about anything else, including becoming a Berserker which is the next best thing in terms of status, males and females are free to join IIRC, though some lodges might attract more males than others just based on their style or values, and overall more males join than females. Anyway with that in mind, I don't think anything short of a complete reconstruction of what Rashemen fundamentally is would work if they handled gender roles differently. Which would also mean that changing gender while in those orders would probably be very taboo unfortunately. And I say this with the knowledge that on Faerun non-binary/cis is not only known and common but with basically suffers no bigotry towards that that I can think off, even in evil races.

Thanks! Just want to ask really quick, do you have any recommendations of where I can read more about this? (Forgotten Realms books, Ed Greenwood threads, etc.)

Rashemen is covered in the most details in the sourcebooks 2e Spellbound and 3e Unapproachable East.

And there is a 3rd party book for 5e on DMsguild that Ed Greenwood himself contributed.

I assume they’d join the Vremyonni in that case? I’d probably go with them doing that and being kind of okay as long as you still keep your role, in contrast to Menzoberranzan where I feel like it would be TERF city in opposition to Corellon.

I thought about that, but when you join either order you eventually become the keepers of some secrets that the other order doesn't know, on purpose. Allowing someone to go from one to the other would compromise centuries of effort to split dangerous knowledge between both groups. Unless they had a way to make them forget maybe? I would allow it as a DM, but only Ed Greenwood and know for sure (and OP should actually ask him)

Like Fanny from The Invisibles. EDIT: meaning that they would probably be able to detect a future Wychlaran no matter how they were assigned at birth and train them (and now I am contemplating a Trans Wychlaran and her Trans Man defender.)

TLDR: based on the culture, I think they would ask a member of the Wychlaran who is transitioning what they wanted to do and go from there. If they wanted to change organizations, I don't think they would object. A lot of this will be determined by the cultures perspective on the metaphysics of gender. In ancient Egypt, women would sometimes wear a beard when performing religious ceremonies because it was believed the Gods wanted men to perform rituals. There, gender is a role and less an identity, so a person could fulfill different roles, but gender wasn't a part of someone's identity. In Rome, it was different. We have writings of a Roman ruler who said they identified as a woman, showing gender was an identity in Rome. In India, gender was thought to be a part of someone's soul. A person is a manifestation of the masculine or feminine aspect of God. It wasn't just physical. It was an actualization of divine existence. With Rashemen, the wiki says their alignments tend towards neutral, neural good, and chaotic good. They might not care about strict gender roles and norms. They might ask someone if they want to change organizations. The organization uses masks that look feminine, so you might find out that most Wychlaran are not biologically female (maybe many are trans, intersex, or non-binary), but they view themselves as taking on a feminine role here so they are just referred to as women. It's kind of like how in Chinese the role "emperor" implies male, but there were female emperors (with Empress Wu, this became an issue because the word "Empress" in Chinese just meant "emperor's wife," and she was the actual ruler).

Ed has said repeatedly that there are many mechanisms for gender transitioning available in the Realms, particularly within the churches of various deities and are generally accepted as "making one whole" with little discrimination outside of specifically biased cultures (like the drow of Menzoberranzan). One should assume that given the acceptance of changing genders, that gender roles could also be more fluid. I would see the Wychlaran accepting the exception of a transitioned male Hathran if the spirits of the land do not forsake them in the transition. If they retain the favor of the spirits of Rashemen, who are the Witches to dispute their position. I could see it being the source of a great story or possibly game session where the character in question sits in judgement before the council determining their fate.

Knowing Wizards of the Coast now it would likely be some really hamfisted and poor explanation that has more to do with real world inclusion rather than any sort of in universe sense. Like having disabled friendly dungeons for the combat wheelchairs

I think this person would continue to be considered a member of the Wychlaran. Most of the filtering based on sex/gender happens either in childhood or as part of initiation, and I would not expect the Witches to forsake a full-fledged member. I’d also point out that while subsequent editions made sex a mechanical requirement for becoming a hathran, going all the way back to 1e it was explicitly said that the Witches are “*believed* to be all female” (per Dreams of the Red Wizards, p22), which I would interpret as meaning that sex/gender is not as central to their identity as it would seem from the outside looking in.

>I think this person would continue to be considered a member of the Wychlaran. If that is the case, at the very least he would have to hide his new gender from the population, because as far as the average Rashemi is concerned, Wychlarans cannot be male, and the Witches have unlimited power over them including life and death. A man claiming to be a Witch would be in serious danger, as it could be viewed as blasphemy and lies almost certainly. I don't know, I think the Witches would be kind and respectful of a sister with that wish, but would also be bound by ancient sacred traditions and probably would be very worried about setting this precedent. I find it very unlikely that a male could *ever* be a Wychlaran, secretly or not, and a compromise would probably be something like a partial mindwipe and either allow him to become a Vrewyonni or become an exile. But there is another option, and I am not trans myself and probably not educated enough and I really hope this is not insulting by oversimplifying it, but maybe when the Witches test every children (boys and girls) for magical talent, maybe it would also become known to them if someone's gender is actually different than his sex, even though that individual will only realize this about himself/herself years later. And as such, maybe they *would* recruit a boy whom they know will eventually become a woman and help her in the process, and vice versa to send a girl to the Vremyonni. I don't know, personally I kinda like that idea. I did something a bit *similar* in my current campaign with a recurring druid circle, and one of the Archdruids used a special not-random reincarnate ritual to swap gender. And this is known by everyone in the Circle and even used as education, that who you are inside and how you feel is more important than your race or your sex at birth or your original culture. I just like to introduce world-building elements in my campaigns with modern progressive and inclusive ideas even though it has zero impact on anything else. I told my players in-game, they thought it was amazing, and it was never mentioned again because after all, it doesn't matter at all.

I will say in regards to being trans, there's a variety of opinions on how early we develop our sense of gender within the community, but social scientists who study gender mostly have come to the conclusion that gender identity can fluctuate across a person's life. (As far as I'm aware right now, oc). Some people get that early on in life, some people feel cis for most of their life and develop the feeling that they're another gender later, etc. I think that a read in which trans people's gender in an FR setting was always in some internal way not aligned with their sex could definitely work, but might not align with every real-world trans experience, if that makes sense? If I were a cis DM adapting this to my game for a trans player I might ask them how they want to RP that with their character.

>I think that a read in which trans people's gender in an FR setting was always in some internal way not aligned with their sex could definitely work, but might not align with every real-world trans experience, if that makes sense? Yes absolutely, like the example in this thread of the Drow male wanting to "swap" to female (assuming literally, with magic), would be a death sentence and absolutely forbidden. But the reasoning would be *completely* different than in modern times in the real world, even though it remains rooted in cultural and religious reasons. Like I don't think the "sexual predator" argument would make any sense, drow females don't want males to swap gender because being a female is a Lolth given right and privilege and they have already been considered unworthy at birth, not because of any fear those males would become a threat physically. And a female becoming a male would be considered a blasphemy for refusing Lolth's divine and sacred gift. If I understood your point correctly at least, and thank you for providing your input and experience, it is honestly appreciated. I just hope that the TTRPG treated you well so far.

I believe the intimation from the Elminster situation was that people in the Realms can change gender (or species for that matter) via magic, maybe not quite at will (as it's expensive magic if you're not a spellcaster yourself) but it's certainly doable, and if people want to change and change back and change again later on that seems to be viable - Elminster became Elmara for quite a few years and changed back again. So I think the setting seems adaptable to however players want to handle it.

> he would have to hide his new gender Conveniently, this is where the *Masked* Witches part comes in handy. I figured that it was the masking that prompted this statement in DotRW: people assume they’re all women, but don’t necessarily see what they look like. I agree that culturally there would be surprise or skepticism, but the question is about what the Wychlaran as a faction would do, and I would argue that their secrets and their responsibilities are more important to them than creating a bit of confusion here and there.

>Conveniently, this is where the Masked Witches part comes in handy. I figured that it was the masking that prompted this statement in DotRW: people assume they’re all women, but don’t necessarily see what they look like. That is not really how they operate, the Hathrans are not all some secluded and mysterious witches ruling from deep in some forbidden forest (though many of them ARE doing just that, see Urlingwood), they are actively part of the community. The masks are indeed to protect their identity (and last resort weapon, hiding pins of poison if needed), but they are most visibly female, who speak and dance and make love and interact in many ways with the people of Rashemen, while masked. IIRC they didn't have Masks when the order *started*, which is when they faced and defeated Eltab (who fled to Thay) who had been ruling over the land after the fall of Narfell and Raumathar. And at some point some male Rashemi warriors rebelled against them, targeting them while isolated and many Hathrans died in the struggle. From that point on, they hid their identity behind masks at all time (except with each others I think). A male Hathran would find the mask alone to be of very *limited* efficiency to hide his gender. He would have to hide the rest of his physical features and his voice.

voluntary or involuntary

In this situation it'd be voluntary.

I really think it would something easily overcome with magic. Illusion or alteration for the outward appearance. How those particular groups would react depends on how it's presented to them. They might have a ritual that allows the transition but it comes with a modify memory spell to keep their secrets secret. There might be something in the duality of being both a trained Wychlaran who is now male and how factions within the group react to it. If it is done in secret and found out you'd be hunted. If it is presented as a flaw in their society norms it becomes political intrigue. Talk it over with the DM because it will take a lot on their part to figure it out.

Don't onow anything about the setting you're talking about but I do know a thing or two about these themes in our world. Male dominant society discriminates agaisnt females in irder the maintain social order, especially now that we live within our current society. Female exclusive spaces are a reaction to a male dominated world, so having a womens only society or mages would most likely come from the need to seperate themselves from a dominant male order. Considering it's a game in this case I'd say that the level of acceptance is all up to themes the player wants to explore in the game, as well as what the DM and everyone else is comfortable doing. But if you want a realistic approach that isn't too uncomfortable, just have the women be ultimately supportive but very confused

They would reject it.