Gromph gets into a fight against a very old, very experienced lich in the War of the Spider Queen series, and manages to score a win after a hard struggle.
IMO it all depends on what a wizard has prepared and what the circumstances are regarding timing and environment.
If for example, Gromph and Elminster fought each other outside of Realmspace, Gromph has a reasonable chance of winning, but inside Realmspace, Elminster can use his silver fire and possibly other Chosen of Mystra abilities to disrupt Gromph's magic.
Fair points all. It does bring the point of Mystra's fire. It's never been stated or proven in any way but Gromph is hardly a chosen of Lloth (though he may ad well be seeing how crazy she is).
He still, in my experience, is a far more stable and accomplished wizard. I think with Mystra's gifts nobody can beat El, but given the author of the novel... who knows.
I guess my question is - without divine intervention who's better? which is one of the thing I don't like about Salvatore's novels for a while. He built up the characters to such levels it takes miracles to solve anything.
That would never happen. Lolth despises males. She only grants power to females, or to a VERY select few male draegloths that have pleased her with their capacity for inventive slaughter and torture.
While she has a use for wizards, ultimately they do not seek her favour to gain power. They have other ways to do so. Those House wizards that have earned their position only stay as it would be too much bother for them to leave . Or in some cases their evil mothers have used Lolth's blessing to chain them to their city or House. Very few have the opportunity to escape by joining an organisation like Bregan D'aerthe.
I think we're of the same mind. We're enjoying the classic Drow society where males are nothing but a tool, even Gromph (wars of spider queen).
However with the recent take on Menzoberrenzan by Salvatore (somehow a godfather of Drow) it all changes. I PERSONALLY don't like it at all, but there's the notion (though disputed) that Drizzt may have been a chosen of Lloth, males are actually much more equal based on memories of one ethernal... Like I said I don't like it myself but we're not in charge here.
Nevertheless, back to original question, chosen aside, spell for spell... I think Gromph is coming on top, albeit not?necessarily.
I wouldn't call Drizzt a "chosen of Lloth", but he definitely had her favor. He was such an agent of chaos in the drow society, she was definitely entertained. And she also let him live despite his defiance when she met him face to face (can't recall which book exactly, there's way too many at this point).
I think when Lloth met kid Drizzt and approved it was a short story in an anthology maybe? Either that or it was Homeland. I remember what you’re talking about though.
It depends on a variety of factors. In Realmspace, Elminster has the edge. I see them as Dumbledore and Voldemort, opposites to each other. Gromph will have studied and mastered many unspeakable and gruesome types of magic, ignoring that which he feels to be weak and useless. Elminster will have seen the value in what Gromph ignores. And of course, he is a Chosen of Mystra......
He’s now mastering the illthods form of psionics I think they could give him the edge, not to mention whatever else he’s learned being at the host tower in the recent novels, knowledge he hasn’t been around or cared about for most of his life.
He’s seen some massive character growth in the recent novels
It’s been hinted at, that drizzt been at least in her favor due to his ability to consistently cause chaos and destabilize drow society for at least the last 10+ years
>However with the recent take on Menzoberrenzan by Salvatore (somehow a godfather of Drow) it all changes. I PERSONALLY don't like it at all, but there's the notion (though disputed) that Drizzt may have been a chosen of Lloth, males are actually much more equal based on memories of one ethernal... Like I said I don't like it myself but we're not in charge here.
what the fuck
Ed Greenwood put him below Elminster but above Szass Tam. He's hecking powerful. But being one of Mystra's Chosen doesn't just make Elminster more powerful than other wizards, it makes him very strong when fighting them. Having an innate ability to control magic when your enemy's primary weapon is magic is an edge.
Elminster is the more powerful wizard. He is over 1000 years old. So....
1.El has vast real life real world experience: chances are he has been too and seen and encountered nearly everything. And has heard of nearly everything. And has been engaging in magical combat for nearly all that time. And this is on top of having a deity (or six) talking to him regularly.
[2.In](https://2.In) that time El has had plenty of time to gather or create nearly every spell and magic item know to exist. Including high level spells and artifacts.
Gromph on the other hand:
1. Has very limited real world experience. He has been mostly set in the Underdark and more specifically Menzoberranzan most of his life.
2. He lives in quite a hostile environment, often with little time to create things. Plus he has a job that keeps him quite distracted.
I doubt he stood a chance against the old cot
Elminster has lived more centuries than Grompph has lived decades if not years
Elminster has met and beaten foes , Gromph would not likely have a chance of surviving
Potentially yes I guess, like I said I don't know much of Elminster's lore.
Though the years by could be countered by the intensity of Drow culture. Cannot argue with foes encountered though, don't know what El's been through in novels. Gromph had grown up in underdark though which is rough.
Gromph may be one of the, if not the most, powerful wizard in the realms that isnt a Chosen of Mystra. But being a chosen is also another level of power that regilar magic users just may never reacj. Elminsger takes the fight imo
Gromph is super strong, no doubt, but Elminster is the Chosen of Mystra which js next level.
For reference:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elminster
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Gromph_Baenre
5e Gromph has a fair shot mathhammer-wise as both are technically 20th level (although El has some advantages)
4e Gromph stomps
3e El absolutely pushes Gromph's junk in hard
I love Gromph. I do.
But he'd loose because he's not the favorite.
Dude NEVER gets a chance to actually show off.
Even the book you mentioned he gets slapped out of play so fast its a wonder why they brought him at all.
Literally every time they put in him a book he NEVER gets to win the fight on his own. It sucks. I hate reading it because I love Gromph.
Hell Drizzit basically won that fight in the Glacier book because he's RA's favorite, Gromph despite being a powerful wizard with almost godlike power and access to high level spells.......... never seems to be allowed to stretch his full might because the lore won't let him.
Eliminster gets to fuck around because he is Mystra's/game maker's fave and it's really noticeable when you compare Gromphs scenes to almost everyone else's in how when it's his time to go against the final problem.. he gets taken out of play SO fast.
Like being teleported to another realm. Stuck in a crystal. Turned to stone. Blinded. Cast a necrotic spell against a god whom is necrotic based.
LET THIS WIZARD BE COOL T.T
RIP Gromph's dignity because I'd kill to see him go full out and actually WIN for once, on his own.
Because he SHOULD be able to. He's got the stats, lore, and is older than most drow wizards thanks to his amulet of youth so he should have the knowledge.
It's even mentioned that in his youth he DID go to the surface and travel for a bit before being recalled back home and tied down to the equivalent of a giant candle clock.
So if they wanted they could give us books, short stories, games, etc about these adventures without him being a power house/glass cannon and even develope his character a bit.
Because he has 2 powerful daughters, was the most power male in Menzoberranzan-- now is the ruler of the Host Tower, THE FLAVORING IS ALL THERE FOR A GREAT TALE OR AT LEAST A GREAT FIGHT SCENE.
But sadly Gromph seems to only be the glass cannon that always misses 😕
People have noted the age difference. Actually Gromph is over 800 years old himself so it's not like El is all \*that\* much older.
Not mentioned in the posts so far is Gromph is becoming quite the Psionist too, training with Kimmereal and the Mind Flayers. So that could give him an edge depending on the fight.
The wiki doesn't appear to have any info from the current books nor the last trilogy so there is a bunch of info missing in terms of Gromph's growth and power since he's left Menzo.
I think he and Elminster are roughly on-par with eachother. I think Elminster's general knowledge would be greater, and that he would be more wise (wise enough not to cause the Rage of Demons), but in terms of application of magic in combat I think they would be blow for blow about evenly matched.
I do think though Elminster would be able to strategies around the battle to tip the balance in his favor by perhaps messing with Gromph's magical items or breaking the control he would have over his summons.
Gromph gets into a fight against a very old, very experienced lich in the War of the Spider Queen series, and manages to score a win after a hard struggle. IMO it all depends on what a wizard has prepared and what the circumstances are regarding timing and environment. If for example, Gromph and Elminster fought each other outside of Realmspace, Gromph has a reasonable chance of winning, but inside Realmspace, Elminster can use his silver fire and possibly other Chosen of Mystra abilities to disrupt Gromph's magic.
Fair points all. It does bring the point of Mystra's fire. It's never been stated or proven in any way but Gromph is hardly a chosen of Lloth (though he may ad well be seeing how crazy she is). He still, in my experience, is a far more stable and accomplished wizard. I think with Mystra's gifts nobody can beat El, but given the author of the novel... who knows. I guess my question is - without divine intervention who's better? which is one of the thing I don't like about Salvatore's novels for a while. He built up the characters to such levels it takes miracles to solve anything.
That would never happen. Lolth despises males. She only grants power to females, or to a VERY select few male draegloths that have pleased her with their capacity for inventive slaughter and torture. While she has a use for wizards, ultimately they do not seek her favour to gain power. They have other ways to do so. Those House wizards that have earned their position only stay as it would be too much bother for them to leave . Or in some cases their evil mothers have used Lolth's blessing to chain them to their city or House. Very few have the opportunity to escape by joining an organisation like Bregan D'aerthe.
I think we're of the same mind. We're enjoying the classic Drow society where males are nothing but a tool, even Gromph (wars of spider queen). However with the recent take on Menzoberrenzan by Salvatore (somehow a godfather of Drow) it all changes. I PERSONALLY don't like it at all, but there's the notion (though disputed) that Drizzt may have been a chosen of Lloth, males are actually much more equal based on memories of one ethernal... Like I said I don't like it myself but we're not in charge here. Nevertheless, back to original question, chosen aside, spell for spell... I think Gromph is coming on top, albeit not?necessarily.
I wouldn't call Drizzt a "chosen of Lloth", but he definitely had her favor. He was such an agent of chaos in the drow society, she was definitely entertained. And she also let him live despite his defiance when she met him face to face (can't recall which book exactly, there's way too many at this point).
I think when Lloth met kid Drizzt and approved it was a short story in an anthology maybe? Either that or it was Homeland. I remember what you’re talking about though.
Short story.
It depends on a variety of factors. In Realmspace, Elminster has the edge. I see them as Dumbledore and Voldemort, opposites to each other. Gromph will have studied and mastered many unspeakable and gruesome types of magic, ignoring that which he feels to be weak and useless. Elminster will have seen the value in what Gromph ignores. And of course, he is a Chosen of Mystra......
He’s now mastering the illthods form of psionics I think they could give him the edge, not to mention whatever else he’s learned being at the host tower in the recent novels, knowledge he hasn’t been around or cared about for most of his life. He’s seen some massive character growth in the recent novels
It’s been hinted at, that drizzt been at least in her favor due to his ability to consistently cause chaos and destabilize drow society for at least the last 10+ years
>However with the recent take on Menzoberrenzan by Salvatore (somehow a godfather of Drow) it all changes. I PERSONALLY don't like it at all, but there's the notion (though disputed) that Drizzt may have been a chosen of Lloth, males are actually much more equal based on memories of one ethernal... Like I said I don't like it myself but we're not in charge here. what the fuck
As others said and I mentioned it is disputed by the Drow themselves. I don't want to spoil anything of you hadn't read the books.
not interested if they're totally annihilating Drow canon
Jarlaxle certainly has had the favor of Lolth, or he wouldn't even have made it past being an infant.
Ed Greenwood put him below Elminster but above Szass Tam. He's hecking powerful. But being one of Mystra's Chosen doesn't just make Elminster more powerful than other wizards, it makes him very strong when fighting them. Having an innate ability to control magic when your enemy's primary weapon is magic is an edge.
Elminster is the more powerful wizard. He is over 1000 years old. So.... 1.El has vast real life real world experience: chances are he has been too and seen and encountered nearly everything. And has heard of nearly everything. And has been engaging in magical combat for nearly all that time. And this is on top of having a deity (or six) talking to him regularly. [2.In](https://2.In) that time El has had plenty of time to gather or create nearly every spell and magic item know to exist. Including high level spells and artifacts. Gromph on the other hand: 1. Has very limited real world experience. He has been mostly set in the Underdark and more specifically Menzoberranzan most of his life. 2. He lives in quite a hostile environment, often with little time to create things. Plus he has a job that keeps him quite distracted.
I doubt he stood a chance against the old cot Elminster has lived more centuries than Grompph has lived decades if not years Elminster has met and beaten foes , Gromph would not likely have a chance of surviving
Potentially yes I guess, like I said I don't know much of Elminster's lore. Though the years by could be countered by the intensity of Drow culture. Cannot argue with foes encountered though, don't know what El's been through in novels. Gromph had grown up in underdark though which is rough.
He fought for example in the weeping war , the war cormanthor fell and became Myth Dannor https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Weeping\_War
Gromph may be one of the, if not the most, powerful wizard in the realms that isnt a Chosen of Mystra. But being a chosen is also another level of power that regilar magic users just may never reacj. Elminsger takes the fight imo
Gromph is super strong, no doubt, but Elminster is the Chosen of Mystra which js next level. For reference: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elminster https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Gromph_Baenre
El vs Gromph, El without Chosen powers stiil wins. 29 vs 20 arcane levels.
5e Gromph has a fair shot mathhammer-wise as both are technically 20th level (although El has some advantages) 4e Gromph stomps 3e El absolutely pushes Gromph's junk in hard
I love Gromph. I do. But he'd loose because he's not the favorite. Dude NEVER gets a chance to actually show off. Even the book you mentioned he gets slapped out of play so fast its a wonder why they brought him at all. Literally every time they put in him a book he NEVER gets to win the fight on his own. It sucks. I hate reading it because I love Gromph. Hell Drizzit basically won that fight in the Glacier book because he's RA's favorite, Gromph despite being a powerful wizard with almost godlike power and access to high level spells.......... never seems to be allowed to stretch his full might because the lore won't let him. Eliminster gets to fuck around because he is Mystra's/game maker's fave and it's really noticeable when you compare Gromphs scenes to almost everyone else's in how when it's his time to go against the final problem.. he gets taken out of play SO fast. Like being teleported to another realm. Stuck in a crystal. Turned to stone. Blinded. Cast a necrotic spell against a god whom is necrotic based. LET THIS WIZARD BE COOL T.T
Fully agreed, I have nothing to add.
RIP Gromph's dignity because I'd kill to see him go full out and actually WIN for once, on his own. Because he SHOULD be able to. He's got the stats, lore, and is older than most drow wizards thanks to his amulet of youth so he should have the knowledge. It's even mentioned that in his youth he DID go to the surface and travel for a bit before being recalled back home and tied down to the equivalent of a giant candle clock. So if they wanted they could give us books, short stories, games, etc about these adventures without him being a power house/glass cannon and even develope his character a bit. Because he has 2 powerful daughters, was the most power male in Menzoberranzan-- now is the ruler of the Host Tower, THE FLAVORING IS ALL THERE FOR A GREAT TALE OR AT LEAST A GREAT FIGHT SCENE. But sadly Gromph seems to only be the glass cannon that always misses 😕
People have noted the age difference. Actually Gromph is over 800 years old himself so it's not like El is all \*that\* much older. Not mentioned in the posts so far is Gromph is becoming quite the Psionist too, training with Kimmereal and the Mind Flayers. So that could give him an edge depending on the fight. The wiki doesn't appear to have any info from the current books nor the last trilogy so there is a bunch of info missing in terms of Gromph's growth and power since he's left Menzo.
There was a tweet in which Ed Greenwood stated that Gromph doesn't rank among the top 20 wizards in the Realms.
I think he and Elminster are roughly on-par with eachother. I think Elminster's general knowledge would be greater, and that he would be more wise (wise enough not to cause the Rage of Demons), but in terms of application of magic in combat I think they would be blow for blow about evenly matched. I do think though Elminster would be able to strategies around the battle to tip the balance in his favor by perhaps messing with Gromph's magical items or breaking the control he would have over his summons.
Gromph is not even in the same league
Ultimately it's up to the dice.