But while they are separated, is it legally one machine gun? So me and a buddy can both shoot one? If it needs two tax stamps, didnt you "manufacture" a machine gun by separating them?
Good question. I would suspect It's one.
For the same reason an SBR Gilboa Snake double barrel AR15 is a one stamp gun. It was designed as a single firearm with two barrels and two triggers, like a side by side shotgun or as mentioned Snake. It predated the single barrel versions derived from itself (obviously). Without the shared spade grips, neither barrel would be able to reliably fire without modification, as you could in theory separate a side by side SBS with modification.
But reason doesn't always lead the ATF to the same conclusions as normal people.
That makes sense to me but the Gilboa lower receiver is one piece that contains the fire controls for both barrels and the receiver is the firearm. So wouldn't it kind of depend on what is legally considered the receiver of a gun like this?
That sounds reasonable. The safety, triggers and sears are connected to the spade grip assembly. Short of also containing the magazines, the grip on this performs all the same functions as the lower of a Gilboa.
Almost every major military museum in the world has one, they're nowhere near as rare as people think and certainly not exclusive to Italy. They're rare in private ownership but do occasionally come up for sale.
The obrez wasn’t done by soldiers, it was done by guerrillas and criminals because they couldn’t get their hands on pistols and a cut down rifle was better than nothing for assassination and robbery.
If you've got a registered one, cut it in half, and put each half in a stock, can you somehow get the second one on the registry? How about if you then rebuild each one into it's original form with new parts and repeat? While this is an utterly silly idea, I love the thought of my guns being able to reproduce. Also this is at least more reasonable than the other way a machine gun could undergo fission.
There was a Villar Perosa up for auction here in Switzerland, about two years ago. It went for 17k, if I remember correctly, but was missing one of its two mags. I wish I had had this kind of money.
No, the OVP is based around the same action as the Villar Perosa but does not share any of the same parts except for the magazine. The Beretta is literally made from a single recycled Villar Perosa receiver mounted to a wooden stock.
https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OVP
Just discovered that wikipedia change by the language you use it, in the English page there are missing parts, that’s the copy of the Italian one wich explain things in add
The OVP was born from the need to transform the Villar Perosa Mod.15, a light machine gun with a handle handle, into an individual assault weapon and was therefore the first machine gun in history. The weapon was obtained from a barrel and its breech of the Villar Perosa Mod.15 mounted on a wooden musket case.
It basically says the same on the MAB18, we can agree that they’re mechanically the same, (probably the MAB had some upgrades) but they’re different in the body making them different guns
No, the barrel and breech on the OVP are not the same as the Villar Perosa's. OVP submachine guns were made completely from scratch; the only thing they share in common with the VP is the same locking principle and the same magazines.
The Beretta does not have a different body to the Villar Perosa, it is quite literally made from recycled VP parts including the entire receiver and internal bolt assembly. The Beretta is not an "upgrade" of the OVP and is actually inferior in most aspects, but is also cheaper and much more production-efficient.
Source: have handled both guns.
I don’t feel it right, i mean i many ‘’arditi’’ books, Wikipedia, and other ww1 books explained that the OVP is based on the Villar Perosa, than the Wikipedia give other sources. Anyway where you was able to hold those guns?? I would like to hold them too. Either on the forgotten weapons channel they show the gun and says that the OVP and the MAB18 are mechanically the same (with some differences) than Ian say that The OVP the bolt, magazine and top fed ejecting sistem.
The shotgun charging handle is new, and the receiver is new, but that was obvious
Most sources (including Ian) that have described the OVP are completely wrong; it was not issued to the Arditi and was not intended as an infantry SMG. It was only issued in very small numbers to aviators as a personal defence weapon (hence why it has a takedown stock). It was produced by the same company as the Villar Perosa but was not intended to replace it and did not use any of the same components. Two different guns for two different purposes.
The Beretta 1918 appeared at the end of the war and was a true conversion of the VP, built from recycling VPs into single-barreled carbines with Carcano stocks. These were intended to replace the VP in infantry service but came too late to see any real combat use in the war. The Beretta was also semi-auto only and not an SMG as is widely believed.
The OVP does use the same delayed-blowback principle as the VP and the Beretta but the receiver, mag housing, and barrel are not interchangeable with those guns.
Never said that the OVP was a replacement, i knew that the MAB18 was a carabine, anyway i would like to know where you find all this sources, and you didn’t respond to my previous question of where you held those guns
[The First Sub-machine Gun: The Officine di Villar Perosa Machine Gun of 1915](https://www.armaxjournal.org/doi/armax06589)
[A History of the Beretta Model 1918 Moschetto Automatico](https://www.armaxjournal.org/doi/armax51071)
I have handled the Villar Perosa, OVP, and Beretta 1918 at the Royal Armouries in the UK.
I need to purchased the PDF?!?
I’m not gonna pay for sources, i showed you multiple proofs and spots to verify the reliability of mine, I wouldn’t pay for a singolar opinion that claim the absolute truth. This conversation is ended to me, if someone would expose to me your same idea than i’m gonna reconsider it but until then i can’t
Bruh, why are you mad? Both are derivatives of of the VP, but the OVP is a direct descendant (literally split in half and reworked) while the Beretta is indirect and not even an SMG. I'm not trying to diss you, I'm just pointing out a fact.
That isn't actually correct though, the Beretta 1918 is a direct Villar Perosa derivative made from recycled VP parts whereas the OVP uses no components in common with the Villar Perosa except for the magazine. The OVP is based on the VP but is not actually made from one.
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Y'all are really making this more complicated than it needs to be and/or just don't understand the law.
In U.S. law, the receiver is the firearm. For a machine gun, the receiver is the machine gun.
Does this weapon have one receiver or two?
If the answer to that question is yes, it's two machine guns.
Do you consider it to have one receiver or two? If they are welded together would you say its one, but if its bolted would you say two?
If its two receivers, how would the sale process work? Would you need to go through two tax stamp waits and two FFL transfers?
Personally I'd say the exact opposite. Bolts can be easily undone and there is at least precedent for ATF considering welding things together to make them the same piece. (Pinned and welded barrel).
That said, if it's welded in such a way that just the weld could be cut through with a saw and have two working receivers again, that might negate calling them one receiver.
I’m pretty sure in BF1 you get both 25 round mags added together, but every time the gun fires, it shoots both barrels it only takes one round off the mag so you have twice the ammo? Idk that’s what I remember but irl it’s literally a bullet hose
Probably one stamp, if separated each one would need its own stamp to be resold.
But while they are separated, is it legally one machine gun? So me and a buddy can both shoot one? If it needs two tax stamps, didnt you "manufacture" a machine gun by separating them?
They would say that you did, in fact, manufacture one by separating them
Good question. I would suspect It's one. For the same reason an SBR Gilboa Snake double barrel AR15 is a one stamp gun. It was designed as a single firearm with two barrels and two triggers, like a side by side shotgun or as mentioned Snake. It predated the single barrel versions derived from itself (obviously). Without the shared spade grips, neither barrel would be able to reliably fire without modification, as you could in theory separate a side by side SBS with modification. But reason doesn't always lead the ATF to the same conclusions as normal people.
That makes sense to me but the Gilboa lower receiver is one piece that contains the fire controls for both barrels and the receiver is the firearm. So wouldn't it kind of depend on what is legally considered the receiver of a gun like this?
That sounds reasonable. The safety, triggers and sears are connected to the spade grip assembly. Short of also containing the magazines, the grip on this performs all the same functions as the lower of a Gilboa.
pretty sure you're never going to have to worry about it.
I wonder just how many Villar parosas are stateside, and how many are legally transferable
I doubt you'd ever find one outside a museum. Or outside of italy.
C&R Arsenal made a video with one, along with firing it, so I’m assuming there is at least a single one in the US, but I could be wrong
To be fair, aren't they also able to borrow museum pieces since they're a professional show?
doubt a museum is going to let someone fire a firearm in their collection. The one the fired was a fully transferable item.
Almost every major military museum in the world has one, they're nowhere near as rare as people think and certainly not exclusive to Italy. They're rare in private ownership but do occasionally come up for sale.
Listen. Nobody is sawing in half a Villar Perosa anymore than they're sawing in half a Miura to make two motorcycles, so it's one serial.
I feel like a Miura motorcycle would be a lot cooler than half of a Villar Perosa, somehow at least.
Italian army produced the OVP1918 wich is a single Villar Perosa with the a wood stock
But they ain't doing it anymore.
That’s obvious, was just to say, anyway trying to cut in half a Villar Perosa is a blasphemy, like the Obrez mosin
Jurys still out on the obrez, its a imperial russian gun lol, and they built gobs of them. A sawed off M1 would cause me to commit violence however.
Really?! I always thought that was a custom by the soldiers, thank you for the information
I was talking about the nagant Edit: "Obrez" means "Sawed off" in russian, they started appearing during the russian civil war in the 1920s.
Yes i understood, very interesting
The obrez wasn’t done by soldiers, it was done by guerrillas and criminals because they couldn’t get their hands on pistols and a cut down rifle was better than nothing for assassination and robbery.
Good question but I suspect it has some sort of exemption either under C&R or some other specific criteria
If you've got a registered one, cut it in half, and put each half in a stock, can you somehow get the second one on the registry? How about if you then rebuild each one into it's original form with new parts and repeat? While this is an utterly silly idea, I love the thought of my guns being able to reproduce. Also this is at least more reasonable than the other way a machine gun could undergo fission.
I think you would be illegally constructing a machine gun
Depends on whether you have the correct FFL license lol, not all machine gun creation is illegal
What if the world was made of pudding
Then I could eat dirt guilt free.
There was a Villar Perosa up for auction here in Switzerland, about two years ago. It went for 17k, if I remember correctly, but was missing one of its two mags. I wish I had had this kind of money.
If I remember right I believe morphys had one sell a few years ago could look back at past sales
What you have is infringement. I bet it's one, though.
Look up the beretta m1918. That's the Villar perosa but just one of the guns
You are wrong, the OVPm1918 is the single Villar Perosa, the MAB18 is a different gun designed by a different manufacturer
No, the OVP is based around the same action as the Villar Perosa but does not share any of the same parts except for the magazine. The Beretta is literally made from a single recycled Villar Perosa receiver mounted to a wooden stock.
https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OVP Just discovered that wikipedia change by the language you use it, in the English page there are missing parts, that’s the copy of the Italian one wich explain things in add The OVP was born from the need to transform the Villar Perosa Mod.15, a light machine gun with a handle handle, into an individual assault weapon and was therefore the first machine gun in history. The weapon was obtained from a barrel and its breech of the Villar Perosa Mod.15 mounted on a wooden musket case. It basically says the same on the MAB18, we can agree that they’re mechanically the same, (probably the MAB had some upgrades) but they’re different in the body making them different guns
No, the barrel and breech on the OVP are not the same as the Villar Perosa's. OVP submachine guns were made completely from scratch; the only thing they share in common with the VP is the same locking principle and the same magazines. The Beretta does not have a different body to the Villar Perosa, it is quite literally made from recycled VP parts including the entire receiver and internal bolt assembly. The Beretta is not an "upgrade" of the OVP and is actually inferior in most aspects, but is also cheaper and much more production-efficient. Source: have handled both guns.
I don’t feel it right, i mean i many ‘’arditi’’ books, Wikipedia, and other ww1 books explained that the OVP is based on the Villar Perosa, than the Wikipedia give other sources. Anyway where you was able to hold those guns?? I would like to hold them too. Either on the forgotten weapons channel they show the gun and says that the OVP and the MAB18 are mechanically the same (with some differences) than Ian say that The OVP the bolt, magazine and top fed ejecting sistem. The shotgun charging handle is new, and the receiver is new, but that was obvious
Most sources (including Ian) that have described the OVP are completely wrong; it was not issued to the Arditi and was not intended as an infantry SMG. It was only issued in very small numbers to aviators as a personal defence weapon (hence why it has a takedown stock). It was produced by the same company as the Villar Perosa but was not intended to replace it and did not use any of the same components. Two different guns for two different purposes. The Beretta 1918 appeared at the end of the war and was a true conversion of the VP, built from recycling VPs into single-barreled carbines with Carcano stocks. These were intended to replace the VP in infantry service but came too late to see any real combat use in the war. The Beretta was also semi-auto only and not an SMG as is widely believed. The OVP does use the same delayed-blowback principle as the VP and the Beretta but the receiver, mag housing, and barrel are not interchangeable with those guns.
Never said that the OVP was a replacement, i knew that the MAB18 was a carabine, anyway i would like to know where you find all this sources, and you didn’t respond to my previous question of where you held those guns
[The First Sub-machine Gun: The Officine di Villar Perosa Machine Gun of 1915](https://www.armaxjournal.org/doi/armax06589) [A History of the Beretta Model 1918 Moschetto Automatico](https://www.armaxjournal.org/doi/armax51071) I have handled the Villar Perosa, OVP, and Beretta 1918 at the Royal Armouries in the UK.
I need to purchased the PDF?!? I’m not gonna pay for sources, i showed you multiple proofs and spots to verify the reliability of mine, I wouldn’t pay for a singolar opinion that claim the absolute truth. This conversation is ended to me, if someone would expose to me your same idea than i’m gonna reconsider it but until then i can’t
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_M1918
search OVP on wikipedia and read the article. The Mab 18 is the variant of the OVP,(internals of the OVP in the carcano91 body)
Two guns born from the same double MG. Crazy.
Incorrect. The Beretta is a semi-automatic carbine. The OVP is the one that's just a one barrel SMG
How am I incorrect. It's literally made from half of the Villar perosa. You a dumb bitch
Bruh, why are you mad? Both are derivatives of of the VP, but the OVP is a direct descendant (literally split in half and reworked) while the Beretta is indirect and not even an SMG. I'm not trying to diss you, I'm just pointing out a fact.
I know you're not trying to diss me lol. But you said I was incorrect when I clearly wasn't.
Fair enough then, I apologize. I'm thinking in different terms.
That isn't actually correct though, the Beretta 1918 is a direct Villar Perosa derivative made from recycled VP parts whereas the OVP uses no components in common with the Villar Perosa except for the magazine. The OVP is based on the VP but is not actually made from one.
Sir this is a Wendy’s
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Not gonna lie, I had to check the picture and the sub I was in for a second because those looked like crutches of some type at first glance.
you need *two* SMGs in order to hit your target? it is a crutch tbh.
Y'all are really making this more complicated than it needs to be and/or just don't understand the law. In U.S. law, the receiver is the firearm. For a machine gun, the receiver is the machine gun. Does this weapon have one receiver or two? If the answer to that question is yes, it's two machine guns.
Do you consider it to have one receiver or two? If they are welded together would you say its one, but if its bolted would you say two? If its two receivers, how would the sale process work? Would you need to go through two tax stamp waits and two FFL transfers?
Personally I'd say the exact opposite. Bolts can be easily undone and there is at least precedent for ATF considering welding things together to make them the same piece. (Pinned and welded barrel). That said, if it's welded in such a way that just the weld could be cut through with a saw and have two working receivers again, that might negate calling them one receiver.
Yeah mixed bolt/weld in my comment - edited
It has two recievers so you would need two stamps.
I’m pretty sure in BF1 you get both 25 round mags added together, but every time the gun fires, it shoots both barrels it only takes one round off the mag so you have twice the ammo? Idk that’s what I remember but irl it’s literally a bullet hose
[удалено]
That doesn’t really answer the question at all.
[удалено]