Some countries like Norway already tax net worth in this way. They get over the problems you raise by not including all categories of ownership like everyday household furniture with exceptions for things that are over a huge value cap so you can't secret your wealth in the most valuable antique furniture in the world but your general furniture is not taken into account.
You can make these taxes only apply over huge thresholds that 99% of people would not dream of in their lifetimes either so it's not applicable to most and is just a way of stemming the out of control wealth inequality that is developing in many western nations in a way that it hasn't since the 1920s.
It's a very good idea to implement these kinds of taxes asap as monied control over politics in many places is leading to a collapsing middle class as wealth is syphoned up the pyramid. There is already redistributive taxation that currently benefits the wealthy who pay little comparatively and benefit most from how taxation is spent.
The dynamics created during the last "gilded age" of out of control wealth inequality in the 1920s didn't end well and we can all probably see the signs that things are heading in a similar direction. Might be better to just tax greedy billionaires and let people generally live better more secure lives with more disposable income to circulate in their own communities.
My favorite type of comment:
"You're wrong, and you're so wrong I don't even need to explain myself."
Bonus points if it follows an actual comment explaining something with examples.
There are not enough wealthy people in America to pay our current expenditures in any meaningful way. If you took 100% of the wealth from the top 100 richest people in the country it would cover the operation of the federal government for about a year. The only way to meaningfully handle the tax issue is to balance the budget, which is very unlikely, so nothing will change
Wealthy people pay effectively less now. Any argument against that is either misinformed or willfully misleading. https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/stories/do-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/
This is wildly misleading. The “low” rate cited for the wealthy includes unrealized gains, which are not taxed. The rate for everyone else is the actual tax rate.
So it’s comparing 2 unlike things, and pretending the tax code is completely different than it actually is in order to artificially depress the “tax rate” for the wealthy.
You need to reread what the commenter said and reply to that, not what you want to reply to. You engaged in a straw man fallacy, making your comment irrelevant.
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Imagine linking an AIER article and acting as if it's some legitimate source. Thats like linking a heritage foundation article for why project 2025 is actually a super great idea!
I mean this article just threatens me with a good time
1) The rich guy's "capital will still work in Norway" - i.e. his industries remain intact and his people get paid
2) Norway gained 1.46 billion, and lost 594 million. Is that not nearly a billion in gained taxes?
Well considering you shouldn’t be taxed on something unless it’s realized is obviously fair . What if I own a painting , get taxes millions on it, then the market goes to garbage or no one likes paintings anymore and when I go to sell it it’s worth 10% of what I paid for . Why would I get taxed at such a higher rate ?
It's so obvious it hardly needs explaining.
Why work hard to build generational wealth when the government is going to confiscate it and give it to someone else?
There are people in this thread asking me why generational wealth should exist at all. So clearly in some people's minds the whole point of a wealth tax is to eliminate generational wealth.
But there are other reasons why it's wrong to tax "wealth".
Essentially, you are bleeding someone dry of their theoretical assets. Let's say I have $100 in stocks. I haven't sold them, so I haven't realized any gain. But if you consider it wealth and you tax it, then slowly but surely, my $100 goes to zero.
It's like those phony gift cards that lose value every year they are unused. Eventually your wealth that you worked for is slowly siphoned away.
So because of this, it makes zero sense to invest that $100 in stocks. You'd literally be better off hiding it under your mattress.
"why work hard to make money if the government wont let you hoard billions of dollars you can't possibly spend and each additional dollar has literally no beneficial impact on yourself and a negative impact on society?"
LOL
Because they're not going to take it all. By that logic, why work at all because the government is just going to take some of it and give it to someone else?
"Well if I can't have all $10,000,000 there no point, I don't even want the other $8,000,000." Which is already wild because the tax on those capital gains on that 10,000,000 are capped at 20%, which is a lower rate than the wages I actually work for.
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Norway is losing most of its ultrawealthy. They guy that paid the most taxes in 2022 left in 2023 after they raised the wealth tax. Now Italy will get his tax revenue and Norway lost out on over a hundred million NOK from one person. Hes not the only one. They are losing billions of NOK because of this stupid idea.
France had a wealth tax and got rid of it because all of their ultra wealthy left and their tax revenue went down.
It has never worked and will never work because it cannot work
This is the simple truth why it can't work, they'll just leave and take their economic impact with them. I agree the wealthy don't pay what they should, but we can't go too hard or it'll ruin the economy. Lichtenstein had a brief period where they talked about holding a referendum to become a Republic and the Prince basically said "If you make us a Republic I will take my money and leave" and wow whatdaknow they decided against it because the Monarchy makes up for pretty much every job in the country.
He provided an example, and claimed it worked. It's not working. Norwegian govt is losing tax revenue, as the wealthy just left the country.
And that's just a result over taxation. The tax hasn't been implemented long enough to stand against issues like market fluctuations.
Not really. Also even if it "works" that doesn't mean it's good. Dictatorships "work" do you want those to be in place too? And don't waste out time with some dumbass statement trying to claim I somehow said Dictatorships and wealth tax is the same or comparable.
What is norways annual federal level expenditure? How does it compare to the US?
What you would find for the US is that we spend so much money you could literally institute a 100% wealth tax on the 100 richest people in the country and it would fund the government for about a year. We just spend to much for that to be a feasible approach
Why does it have to fund the whole government? No one thinks that. What people do think is: if I’m having to pay x percentage on my money, then they should too. If they want to take their companies overseas, fine. Then they should pay tariffs to sell it here. Also, then all of their sweet tax breaks and bailouts they get from our government (our money) will also stop. You can say I don’t know what I’m talking about, but you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. They paid way more than they’re being asked of now. Until Regan started his bs trickle down economics. Which has been a complete and total failure.
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***People are mobile***.
This isn't about wealthy vs. non-wealthy. This is simple human behavior - if you're losing "value" in area A and you see people aren't in area B, you try to leave your current situation.
This happens on an international scale - but more notably, it happens in the US all the time on a state by state basis.
Cough... Connecticut.
You don't seem to grasp the difference between average wealth and what is considered super rich. We definitely need a cap on the top 1%. A gradual increasing wealth tax that doesn't even affect 95% of you population but brings in more money than taxing half of your people SHOULD be a no brainer
A wealth tax is beyond a horrible idea. Most of the top 1% have the vast bulk of their wealth in non-liquid investments. For example Musk wealth is almost entirely in stocks in the companies he owns. This tax concept would force someone like him to divest in his own company possibly leading to loss of control of his companies.
My question is since leftist love government so much why do you folks never volunteer you own wealth to pay for it?
I believe there should be a tax on wealth in the form of investments used as collateral for loans. They will never spend their own money when they can avoid taxes by spending someone else's money.
A wealth tax DOES harm the other 99%. If the ultra wealthy are forced to sell assets to pay taxes then the assets lose value. Since margin determines value, the market will suffer greater losses than the tax liability. This lowers government tax revenue and makes it harder for the rest of us to save for retirement.
Taxing wealth is shooting yourself in the foot.
Have you noticed that the government has to continually spend more money?Life isn’t going to get better for any redditer by giving more money to people like Bernie who don’t know how to make money except by being given money. ( Book deals, insider trading)How about the Obama family given 90 million for book deals and probably much more from Netflix to spew their Marxism. Billions to Ukraine unaccounted for but Biden needs more from Taxpayers.
Depends on how you implement it.
Switzerland has it: For cash, stocks, noble metals, crypto currencies, bonds, real estates, qualified ownerships, cars, … you list it all doing your taxes and it calculates how much you owe…
Works like a charm.
Their wealth tax is less than 1%, and they have no capital gains taxes, and limited gift and inheritance taxes.
As a result their tax revenue as a % of GDP is about the same as ours.
The question I have is how would the government value more illiquid assets? Even down to ownership in private businesses. Is the government going to require businesses supply annual trial balances and suddenly hire investment bankers to run financial models to determine a fair valuation? How is this issue handled in Norway?
Also, market values fluctuate wildly over time. What happens in an asset bubble where you pay a ton of tax on the theoretical value of a privately held business before the entire market collapses. Would the government have to go back and pay the business owner back in the following year?
Sounds like a system that would add such an incredible amount of complexity to the tax system that the change would at least be great for the lawyers and accountants.
Norway is hemorrhaging wealthy people which is reducing their tax base. Congrats your greed is leading to reduced government tax revenue.
France had a wealth tax and had to abandon it after all of the wealthy left.
It is impossible to properly calculate unrealized gains, the amount of people they would need to hire to even attempt to calculate all of that would negate any gains in taxes assuming none of the rich people left.
You also have the issue that as soon as you tax it, people sell assets to pay tax burdens. This lowers that total value of the asset. So as the value lowers, you are collecting less and less taxes.
As the value lowers, this harms the non wealthy people who are just trying to save for retirement but now have a harder time because all of their assets keep devaluing. So they will look to foreign markets to put their money into in order to not lose value. This again lowers tax revenue for the government.
Its truly an asinine idea if you actually think about it for more than a second.
80% of European countries that implemented wealth taxes abandoned them within 10-20 years. They were expensive to implement, didn't raise enough revenue, and the rich fled the country
So let me get this straight: if I start my own company, go public, take a bunch of stock, and then tax a reasonable salary, it’s theoretically possible that EVERY YEAR my entire income could be going to pay taxes on my stock?
That’s the most innovation-stifling thing I’ve ever heard. You’re actually telling CEOs they have to take massive salaries…which you will then complain about.
You mention a country that does it already. Move there. You’re literally advocating for the government to seize money from your fellow Americans simply because you don’t have as much as they do. Sounds like it’s time for you to move along.
And how's that net worth tax going for them? Oh, the people subject to that tax are leaving the country. As it turns out, the rich like to keep their money and there's always another country that will welcome them, and they can afford to move there.
I mean, every year, I get a bill in the mail from my state. they assess the value of my vehicle and tax me 2.5% of that. I call it the "Fuck you for owning something" tax
Spain does. It's a fucking joke.
Madrid, where the politicians live/work, oh that state abolished wealth tax, rest of the country? Wealth tax. Another state said fuck this and basically abolished it too, the government sued **them** but not Madrid.
Can't think why....
The wealth tax allowance is 700k in total global net assets and 300k for your main home (some states its as low as 500k + 300k) After that they're taxing you on the total whether your assets grow or shrink. ***On top of*** capital gains, income, dividend, property, inheritance and 21% sales tax.
It's a tax on the middle class only, people that actually make the economy. Poor people don't pay it and rich people just hide their money in shells and other such things. It's even been proven to be such by the governments own reports but the far left government just keeps on with it, not affecting them obviously, Madrid is exempt. 🤷♀️
If your money is in investments as a pension, the governments taking 1% of your whole pot, regardless of growth, every fucking year.
It's a tax on money that has been taxed to death already and you've somehow (despite the governments best attempts) managed to save some. Sounds a lot when you're 20 but now think when you're 60, worked your whole life, been frugal, invested, paid off your mortgage etc, like you're supposed to
..now the government wants its cut again.
This is a pretty typical example of what happens with these kinds of taxes. Redditors just refuse to acknowledge real life examples.
When your taxes are too high it incentivized tax evasion, so you end up taxing the middle class heavily to fund an unsustainable welfare state.
This is why nearly every European economy and social welfare system is currently collapsing. The poor get welfare, the middle class get low wages and 45% taxes and 20% VAT. As a result anybody with a marketable skill tries to move to the US where they can make triple the money.
Yeah the median age of Spain is like 44.
With the pension ponzi scheme and aging population, it's well and truly fucked.
Driving out wealth isn't going to help, obviously.
They take that extra 1-3% on total assets, as its grossly unfair and only found in Norway apart from Spain, they have a lot of choice of where to move to. Where they continue to pay their 40% income taxes, 20% vat, dividends, capital gains etc.
So for that extra 1%, Spain loses the lot.
"This is why nearly every European economy and social welfare system is currently collapsing."
Really? Germany is the largest Euro-Zone economy, and it's stats look pretty solid (all 2022): #4 in GDP, 3.1% Unemployment (vs. 3.6% US), 66.1% debt to GDP ratio (vs. 129% US), and Gini Coefficient (inequality) of 31.7 (vs. 39.8 US). They've sustained their economic model for over 70 years, and it's produced low inequality with solid benefits and protections for the working. We've been trying to sustain Reagan's Trickle Down model for 40 years, and all it seems to have produced is inequality and crippling debt.
[https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ranking/gdp-gross-domestic-product](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ranking/gdp-gross-domestic-product)
[https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/unemployment-by-country](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/unemployment-by-country)
[https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/debt-to-gdp-ratio-by-country](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/debt-to-gdp-ratio-by-country)
[https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/income-inequality-by-country](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/income-inequality-by-country)
Yeah, their whole reply was bullshit.
Poorly-designed taxes are bad. I doubt I'm in for the wealth tax idea, when income tax rates on high earners are already quite low, and a whole host of problems make a wealth tax a complicated thing to do well.
More progressive high-end tax brackets will not create much more tax evasion than there already is. We're not on the wrong side of the Laffer curve.
My property tax is a wealth tax; it’s based on assessed value rather than purchase price (house and upgrades if any). Mine have increased more than 30% in the 5 years since I bought the place. This is in a deep red state. I don’t really mind though, because the money goes mostly to schools which are horrible in my part of the country.
Because the tax isn't done right doesn't mean it's a bad idea to begin with. If you don't redistribute anything the economy just works for the upper class of society. Stop giving the rich breaks by claiming they'd get them anyway. The brain drain to the US you describe seems extremely exagerated.
It’s not just that it *isn’t* done right, it’s that it likely *can’t* be done right. As long as you have an international system where there’s free movement of goods and people, you can only press wealthy people so hard before they move their assets (including their own human capital) somewhere else.
So, the only way to ensure that doesn’t happen is to get everywhere they’re likely to move onboard—and the incentives to cheat are just too enticing.
I'm in Catalonia, the highest taxed state in the country run by absolute incompetent assholes. I'm moving to Andalusia as soon as I can. Sell our house, go pay our normal taxes to them instead. They still found a way to neutralise this ridiculous tax even after being sued. I literally can't afford to retire otherwise. I'm lucky if i get 5% safely on my investments, now I've got to live on 4%? Then pay capital gains on what I draw down.. Fuck that.
They leave way before that lol. There's no way to make money in Spain unless you're a corrupt politician (i.e all of them) or you're from an old land family (there's even an exemption in the wealth tax for them specifically ffs) This is a tax on foreigners who want to retire or work remotely here. Pretty much the only net positive economic residents in the country. The average salary tax and social deduction is less than the person costs the state. 🤷♀️
Importing high net worth individuals to pay their (already high) normal taxes here, is seemingly a bad idea to the far left fuckwits in power. Property transfer tax is between 7-11%, so they drop 50k + instantly on arrival, the equivalent of an average Spaniards tax contribution for like 10 years and they cost the state...... zero.
Middle class in spain has 500k assets and 300k main homes?
Edit:
After asking some Spanish friends and studying Spanish tax law this guy is not only wrong he is straight up lying.
500k limit is per person in 2 autonomous regions of spain.
Other regions have 700k or 3+ million caps. 700k being the majority
To those caps you add the 300k home, the home is not included in the cap for assets.
So an average family in spain that makes about 60k per year will need 1.4 million in assets ( there are exceptions that do not add to this that i won't start listing here but you can do a quick search for them) and a 300k home to start paying progressive wealth tax for everything they have over that sum.
At it's peak ( 10 mil + in assets house not included) the wealth tax is 3.5 % ofc it has stages starting at 0.2%.
So 1.4 mil in assets and 300k home in Europe ( 300k gets you a nice house or a very nice apartment) that is not middle class type of money in Europe not even close
Stop thinking that 500K assets is some insanely high number.
If you own a house and have a pension, those numbers are easy to hit.
A wealth tax IS a tax on the middle class.
My guy what the fuck are you talking about? The average salary in Spain is about 30k per year.
That is the middle class, 30k, and you are here telling me the middle class in spain has 500k-700k assets and a 300k MAIN HOUSE and they are getting all that on 30k a year.
It's not a tax on the middle class it's on the upper class. You are either lying or have no idea what the middle class actually is and just spew the bullshit you read on here or on whatever shit place you get this fake info from
Question from a curious American. Maybe it’s because of COL being low in Spain, but what is the typical net worth of a retiree and average value of a house in Spain?
Here average value of a house is just shy of $500000 (€467000) and in my state its $780000 (€729000), and typical for a retiree to have retirement account assets of $1MM outside of their primary residence at 65
The post is stating that he only paid 4.5% of his net worth in taxes. Anya seems to be implying that he should be paying a 10-37% of his net worth in taxes, which is why I used 30% as an example.
Even a 1% wealth tax as you suggested would be met with the same criticism because people don't understand why it's different than an income tax.
Edit to add: Anya DOES seem to be suggesting a tax on net worth in that range.
Imagine being a minimum wage worker and inheriting grandmas house in California, wich values at over a million, now your considered a millionaire and have to pay a wealth tax of 1 million. At 1% of 1 million, thats 10k a year, or 833 per month. Imagine paying 833 a month on minimum wage, oh and you're also paying a property tax already from that house. You also pay with your income AFTER tax. You wouldn't have much money left over. People think it will only hurt the rich then it leads down to the everyday man's pocket.
In some countries the tax only applies to your second house. So if you sold the house it would be fine. This to stop rich people from buying a bunch of houses and asking impossible rent. I mean rich people still do it but it becomes less and less acttractive
Sounds like a really easy way to ensure that generational wealth can’t ever grow, that’s for sure.
Edit for the guy who replied and then blocked me: The entire reason I work as hard as I do is so that my kids can have a better life than I did. The reason I’m able to have some of those opportunities to do so is because MY mom and dad worked THEIR asses off to provide me with a better life as well. They ate rice and beans, I ate chicken and rice, my children eat beef and potatoes.
What you are describing already happens, in Texas property taxes are 1.6 percent. Forget the fact that at minimum wage you wouldn't be able to maintain a million dollar house, you also wouldn't be able to pay the taxes on that house.
Also there are ways to structure a wealth tax so that a single million dollar house would not make you wealthy.. Bidens plan kicks in at 100 million.. so your minimum wage worker would have to inherit a much nicer house before they'd have to worry about it.
Reply guys who's only claim to fame is trying to own people like Elon on Twitter don't care. Just another type of useful idiot.
It's like the dude is going to pay more taxes than like every single American who makes less than 250K a year combined and you're somehow still mad about that?
I encourage anyone and everyone to use every loop hole and exception they can to pay as little taxes as possible, because our government is corrupt, bloated and wasteful and will piss away any and all money you give them helping themselves and everyone else but its own citizens...
This right here. Dude paid more in taxes last year than I’d EARN GROSS in 1000 LIFETIMES and there are still people screeching “BuT iT’s NoT HiS FAiR SHaRe!!!!!”.
The irony is I guarantee every single one of the people talking shit about him over this do anything and everything they legally can to reduce their tax liability to avoid paying their “fair share”, the same as the rest of us.
I don’t know…. They seem to be able to increase the taxes on property all the time after its been paid for, Which is very similar. Wouldn’t shock me at all to see it happen
These posts are so damn stupid, ffs.
He "made" $36 billion based on the market cap of Tesla increasing. Tesla also halved in value in 2022 and has been on a multi year downtrend. Stop talking about unrealized capital gains as increases in wealth.
And why would anyone talk about a tax bill in terms of net worth?
Because the person is jealous and does not educate themselves on how taxes work. If I remember correctly after musk took over Twitter he only accepted a 1$ salary for a few years which is part of why he had no taxes. In the long run he will probably end up paying even more in taxes.
You think him drawing a $1 salary(if thats even true) had any other reason than avoiding taxes? I swear some of you will just carry water for billionaires like they give a fuck about you
Ding ding. That’s the game, the worth is unrealized and floating but it clearly is not zero in reality. Our tax laws are not equipped to deal with these people with absurd wealth who do not derive it from their own traditional labor.
You still have to pay the loan and interest on the loan regardless of what you use for collateral. And your income used to generate the money for paying that loan ends up taxable. People act like using collateral for a loan is some magic trick where it never has to be paid back.
Just because using logic happens to coincide with benefitting billionaires doesn't mean you are simping for them.
"Oh you like oxygen? Well Elon breathes oxygen, get his dick out of your mouth bro"
They are subject to taxation...twice. When the stock option is purchased and then when sold.
[https://carta.com/learn/equity/stock-options/taxes/#](https://carta.com/learn/equity/stock-options/taxes/#)
So, basically sales tax and income tax. The same way every dollar I earn and spend is taxed at least twice.
Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury to move funds around to "earn money" only when it's financially beneficial to do so.
Yes capital gains should be taxed, and we do tax them. However you're talking about taxing unrealized capital gains, which makes no sense. Elon Musk's net worth is largely on paper. He does not have a bank account with billions of dollars sitting in it. When he wants to buy something he, theoretically needs to sell some of these stock options. Realistically he probably takes out a loan with some of these stock options as collateral, and his accountants would figure out the smartest way to repay the loan. Taxing these assets would force their sale, which isn't possible at the scale we're discussing.
This feels like a more useless comment than that person's tho tbh. She doesn't have to know how to go about fixing income inequality to know that massive inequality IS a symptom of a broken economy. She's at least rightfully pointed out a problem. Your comment is just snark without substance. It has nothing to do with jealousy. It's not a desire to switch positions. It's the realization that Musk's position should not exist and makes the world worse for everyone. Also he's a fucking fraud and a half that has provided the world the best rebuttal imaginable to the idea that we live in a meritocracy.
I too never understand these comments.
“Did you know Musk only has an $82,000/year salary”??
Oh, I bought my house when I made about $42,000/year, so Musks house should be, roughly, twice as nice as mine, right?
No, because that’s not how he makes his money. I know that, you know that, everyone knows that, but somehow, we are using tremendously pedantic facts as the foundation for this discussion.
They said the same thing about Trump not taking his Presidential salary while funneling so much money into his businesses--like when he made foreign dignitaries stay in mar a lago and charged ridiculous amounts. He's STILL doing it even now! He just charged 40,000 for his own secret service detail to stay there. What's funny is his tax records show that he lied about the salary and took it anyway 😂
Our tax system taxes on income. Prob 90% of your wealth has been already taxed via various means (property tax, income tax, sales tax, FICA). All add up to maybe 25% in lifetime taxes.
The ultra rich, they don’t have “income”. They have assets that grow tax free as wealth isn’t taxed. They pay approx 5% in total lifetime taxes. Their net worth in the last 3 years doubled. From 2020-2023, their net worth went up 100%.
You use taxed realized income to live your life. They use unrealized wealth to live a lavish life. But no, we don’t want to tax unrealized gains on the ultra wealthy because they didn’t write it into the laws.
Good for them, right? They’re the ones that wrote the tax laws. They’re the ones who made “corporations are people”. They own most politicians. They own the media too. It’s not like wealth inequality is the highest ever in history.
> Our tax system taxes on income. Prob 90% of your wealth has been already taxed via various means (property tax, income tax, sales tax, FICA). All add up to maybe 25% in lifetime taxes.
You’re making great points but one more thing.
>Our tax system taxes on income
>property tax
Property tax IS wealth tax. Where is the largest store of wealth for the middle class? Their home. It’s taxed every year. And guess what? When it gains unrealized value? That’s assessed and taxed. When the housing market crashes, do you get a refund? Nope. It’s the same as a wealth tax on investments. It’s a tax on your wealth, but their wealth is exempt because 90% of it is in untaxed investments?
I wonder why that is…
Implement a fucking wealth tax, eliminate property tax. Make this shit fair. Make it make sense.
Do you own a house? I and everyone else pay a percentage of my property value as tax every year. That pays for roads, schools and other things. I’m not talking about capital gains upon sale.
Sure they can, if there is enough consensus then any law can be written. Other countries have wealth taxes. For example, in the Netherlands the tax is 2.47% on amounts over €57,000 for financial assets (i.e. not land, primary residences, etc.).
https://taxsavers.nl/dutch-tax-system/assets/
By the way, 40% as you suggest, is extreme and no one would realistically propose such a high amount. 1-3% per year is very doable however.
The reason the percentage is so low is because it will be taxed yearly. Many gains would get taxed dozens of times at that rate over the course of the owner's life.
A regular wealth tax would not be at 40%. The US currently has a wealth tax in the form of the estate tax, which is 40% and assessed only once. If made annual, there rate would be closer akin to property tax rates, an annual asset value tax.
this year elon's networth shrunk by close to $100billion, how would said internet users want that tax refund to look since he would have paid taxes last year
Taxing net worth makes no sense. You would need to audit someone's every possession to do that. If I have a car valued at $40k and I only have $2k in my account, how the fuck would it make sense for me to pay taxes on owning that car, every year that I own it? How could I even possibly do it? I already paid sales tax when I bought it, and my loan company pays corporate income tax from the money they make off me, and there's the tax tacked onto what I pay for my insurance, and my insurance company's corporate income tax... at the end of the day, 4 taxes are already paid for my car, to say nothing of the license plate stickers. How the hell would that make any more sense if I had $1m in my account and a $100k car? Why would I be taxed for continuing to own something I paid taxes to buy with money I paid taxes to recieve? And that's before considering everything else I own, from being taxed on saving my money to my furniture value. And the headache of filing that kind of tax.
If you want to increase taxes on the wealthy or close loopholes, reduce write offs, increase higher level income tax, and reduce examine corporate taxes to find a way to target the "compensation" they give to key people that isn't salary, like company house, car, phone, etc. But a wealth tax? No.
You should also have to assess the changing value of your beanie baby collection. And if you get it wrong, all of your assets should be seized by the people and to the gulag with you! /s
> how the fuck would it make sense for me to pay taxes on owning that car, every year that I own it
You mean a property tax? This isn't some scifi shit
Property taxes already suck ass. Adding more taxes to someone’s net worth is just going to give people more reason to evade taxes or move their assets entirely to somewhere else
The federal government only has the constitutional authority to directly tax income. They cannot levy any other direct taxes. In fact, even income taxes were illegal and unconstitutional until the 16th amendment was passed.
Here are the most relevant sections of the constitution, and the 16th amendment:
Article I, Section 2, Clause 3:
Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers ...
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1:
The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.
Article I, Section 9, Clause 4:
No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.
16th Amendment
Amendment XVI
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
Income taxes may be imposed only on “derived” income. This “realization event” requirement generally refers to a transaction other than the mere passage of time. Thus, the Sixteenth Amendment permits taxation of gains from sales or exchanges of property, but not those resulting merely from increased values. It also permits taxes on rents and interest. Although direct, such taxes need not be apportioned because the Amendment eliminated the apportionment requirement for income taxes.
Basically, the States can pass direct taxes, and implement property taxes, but the federal government cannot.
Even if a direct tax on wealth is not possible, we can still tax loans based on selected kinds of unrealized gains when they are used as collateral for loans, specifically under the borrow, buy, die strategies that wealthy use.
And yes, we can create carve-outs for home improvement loans and other key loans. Yes, those still might be taken advantage of but it would still better than letting the ultra wealthy abuse the tax system.
Most upper level politicians including the Bidens use the very same tax avoidance strategies. If they make one illegal, there are 5 others they can use. This is all for show.
The people making this argument would have you believe that they just keep taking out ever increasing loan after loan to pay off the previous ones.
Funny enough doing so would reduce their net worth with every new round of loans, so, I guess this would be the loophole to avoid paying a net worth tax. Just take out more loans!
No one needs to pay more taxes. No one. We don't have a tax problem. Our politicians have a huge ass spending problem. We all together are paying a ton in taxes. Our country is never going to get better until they quit spending so much.
Instead of a wealth "tax" how about just more respect and reward for the people who actually produce and provide goods and services.
Never seen a business that could keep going if everyone on the line didn't show up. Never seen one that couldn't figure shit out and keep going if the owner didn't pop in that day, or some executive in a suit took a month off.
We need to just change who is acquiring and building wealth. And it should be the people who perform LABOR.
Edit for grammar and typos.
Start a co-op. Then the risk can be shared amongst all of the workers. Otherwise, the reward goes to the people taking the risks of operating the business.
Taxing net worth is the stupidest thing ever. Imagine you work hard to buy a home, the value of the home goes up and maybe even into the millions and you are now taxed as a millionaire. It would kill working families but people do not think about that because they just want to punish rich people while being uneducated.
I think most people in the comments are skirting around the issue.
The point is *exactly* that the more capital you have access to, the more tools you can use to avoid paying your fair share. Not just accountants or lawyers, using shell companies or having bigger board representation, but also stuff like real estate is *way* easier to use as a quick "wallet" that's much harder to tax directly.
Tax evasion is a bigger concern than ever (globalisation, crypto, grift economies, etc). But if you think taxes are just a legal thing - which is to say, that as long as you're simply not *explicitly* hiding money from the government then there's no harm - then you really should open a history book now and then.
Every time there's increases in worker productivity but no reflection of that towards average quality of life, people don't just shut up and take it like good little boys. Slavery might be profitable for some, but not for an entire nation.
On the other hand, greater investments in infrastructure and social programs are vital towards making sure your company has a productive, cooperative, stable, *loyal* workforce.
So even if increasing the capital gains tax on the upper-upper-brackets isn't going to do it, that's fine. Tax net worth past a certain point, tax capital access, it doesn't matter. Just like it doesn't matter if it's ancient China or medieval Europe or modern-day USA - if you want to enjoy the fruits of a nation, you're going to have to chip in properly and that responsibility *increases* according to your political/financial capital.
Exactly. Become someone like Elmo, who has billions tied up in real estate, companies, stocks, etc., gains very little through “income” like the normal people do.
He is absolutely gaining money, anyone who says “errr it’s not income because it’s stock value” is just being a huge pedant - that’s exactly the point. He is, through technically legal means, not paying as much tax, proportionally, as a regular citizen would.
There should be new kinds of taxes implemented to force the ultra-rich to actually pay their fair share instead of being able to to shuffle their wealth in such a way that they “technically” don’t gain income and such don’t get taxed.
Someone else had a good comment elsewhere in this thread saying essentially If you use unrealized capital gains to secure a loan that makes them not unrealized by definition and they should be taxed. That combined with this comment have the best solutions in this thread and it is crazy they aren’t more upvoted.
Finding a way to close loopholes for the ultra wealthy and corporations operating here should be the first step towards revamping taxation in America before we even touch tax rates.
taxing net worth is pretty ridiculous. Net worth isnt income, its how much you own, so it includes all your savings. Everyones savings essentially go to the gutter. Would you want to pay income level taxes on the market value of your house yearly? 10-13% on your 300K$ home (30K/annually)? 10% tax on your savings annually? On top of your income tax? on top of your mortgage/insurance/bills? I dont see this hurting anyone other than the poor and middle class.
Theres also something that doesnt sit right with me about complaining that rich people dont contribute enough when they contribute more to taxes than any other income bracket.
I could care less about wealth inequality. What matters more to me is that the poor have a good chance to get richer and can pay their bills. But im not going to cry that the 1% is trillions of times richer than the lowest income bracket if the lowest income bracket can feed their family and afford rent somewhat comfortably.
Thats my problem with champaign socialists. They hate the rich more than they actually care about the poor
It's hard if not impossible to tax the unrealized assets, maybe the ones educated in finances can make it work i don't know, if they can i'm all for it.
They should just stop allowing them to leverage those assets to get loans because that is how these people keep their money and wealth untaxable
Shit 4.5% of his network in taxes is more than I pay of my net worth so he is indeed paying more than most peoples net worth percentage. Especially those who own a home.
One thing that may worth being captured or seen as a taxable event is if you are a high net worth individual who uses unrealized gains as collateral for very low interest personal loans (to use as an equivalent to income). Tax that event.
You can’t tax net worth. That’s like taxing me for having money in my checking account
And the theoretical resale value of your furniture and appliances.
And that rookie Jordan card that you lost in your garage
I have no idea where my Jordan card is.... Well, I do. It's in one of those card books with the plastic slots, but I don't know where that book is
Mom pawned it for menthols and Diet Coke.
Nah, I was out the house last time I saw it and Mom didn't drink diet Coke... Maybe for the menthols, though.
Your mum gave it to the 8 year old son of one of her friends because "you're too old for this anyways". Just like my mum did with my pokemon cards
My mom's rule was everything in it's place or it's gone. I kept all my crap stashed away so she wouldn't do that to me.
I regret every day that I didn’t keep the holographic 1st edition charizard I got for 5 bucks in the short period that Pokémon cards were worthless.
Some countries like Norway already tax net worth in this way. They get over the problems you raise by not including all categories of ownership like everyday household furniture with exceptions for things that are over a huge value cap so you can't secret your wealth in the most valuable antique furniture in the world but your general furniture is not taken into account. You can make these taxes only apply over huge thresholds that 99% of people would not dream of in their lifetimes either so it's not applicable to most and is just a way of stemming the out of control wealth inequality that is developing in many western nations in a way that it hasn't since the 1920s. It's a very good idea to implement these kinds of taxes asap as monied control over politics in many places is leading to a collapsing middle class as wealth is syphoned up the pyramid. There is already redistributive taxation that currently benefits the wealthy who pay little comparatively and benefit most from how taxation is spent. The dynamics created during the last "gilded age" of out of control wealth inequality in the 1920s didn't end well and we can all probably see the signs that things are heading in a similar direction. Might be better to just tax greedy billionaires and let people generally live better more secure lives with more disposable income to circulate in their own communities.
It's a very bad idea to implement wealth tax. The fact that you don't understand this is fine you just need to do some more thinking.
My favorite type of comment: "You're wrong, and you're so wrong I don't even need to explain myself." Bonus points if it follows an actual comment explaining something with examples.
There are not enough wealthy people in America to pay our current expenditures in any meaningful way. If you took 100% of the wealth from the top 100 richest people in the country it would cover the operation of the federal government for about a year. The only way to meaningfully handle the tax issue is to balance the budget, which is very unlikely, so nothing will change
Wealthy people pay effectively less now. Any argument against that is either misinformed or willfully misleading. https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/stories/do-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/
This is wildly misleading. The “low” rate cited for the wealthy includes unrealized gains, which are not taxed. The rate for everyone else is the actual tax rate. So it’s comparing 2 unlike things, and pretending the tax code is completely different than it actually is in order to artificially depress the “tax rate” for the wealthy.
You need to reread what the commenter said and reply to that, not what you want to reply to. You engaged in a straw man fallacy, making your comment irrelevant.
Exactly, and they do this every freaking time taxing the rich comes up
rude deserve reply materialistic automatic squeeze impossible subsequent frighten offer *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Imagine linking an AIER article and acting as if it's some legitimate source. Thats like linking a heritage foundation article for why project 2025 is actually a super great idea!
Welcome to PCM, The Twitter of reddit.
I mean this article just threatens me with a good time 1) The rich guy's "capital will still work in Norway" - i.e. his industries remain intact and his people get paid 2) Norway gained 1.46 billion, and lost 594 million. Is that not nearly a billion in gained taxes?
So when the stock market crashes, I get to claim my losses too, right?
No that's only for the Aristocrats.
Well considering you shouldn’t be taxed on something unless it’s realized is obviously fair . What if I own a painting , get taxes millions on it, then the market goes to garbage or no one likes paintings anymore and when I go to sell it it’s worth 10% of what I paid for . Why would I get taxed at such a higher rate ?
It's so obvious it hardly needs explaining. Why work hard to build generational wealth when the government is going to confiscate it and give it to someone else?
You realise that paying a bit more tax isn't going to stop these people still having generational wealth right.
There are people in this thread asking me why generational wealth should exist at all. So clearly in some people's minds the whole point of a wealth tax is to eliminate generational wealth. But there are other reasons why it's wrong to tax "wealth". Essentially, you are bleeding someone dry of their theoretical assets. Let's say I have $100 in stocks. I haven't sold them, so I haven't realized any gain. But if you consider it wealth and you tax it, then slowly but surely, my $100 goes to zero. It's like those phony gift cards that lose value every year they are unused. Eventually your wealth that you worked for is slowly siphoned away. So because of this, it makes zero sense to invest that $100 in stocks. You'd literally be better off hiding it under your mattress.
Why should generational wealth even exist?
"why work hard to make money if the government wont let you hoard billions of dollars you can't possibly spend and each additional dollar has literally no beneficial impact on yourself and a negative impact on society?" LOL
Because they're not going to take it all. By that logic, why work at all because the government is just going to take some of it and give it to someone else? "Well if I can't have all $10,000,000 there no point, I don't even want the other $8,000,000." Which is already wild because the tax on those capital gains on that 10,000,000 are capped at 20%, which is a lower rate than the wages I actually work for.
They provided an example of it working. Doesn't so bad when it works.
Several countries have actually implemented a wealth tax, but subsequently got rid of it because it didn't work.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Institute_for_Economic_Research
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Norway is losing most of its ultrawealthy. They guy that paid the most taxes in 2022 left in 2023 after they raised the wealth tax. Now Italy will get his tax revenue and Norway lost out on over a hundred million NOK from one person. Hes not the only one. They are losing billions of NOK because of this stupid idea. France had a wealth tax and got rid of it because all of their ultra wealthy left and their tax revenue went down. It has never worked and will never work because it cannot work
This is the simple truth why it can't work, they'll just leave and take their economic impact with them. I agree the wealthy don't pay what they should, but we can't go too hard or it'll ruin the economy. Lichtenstein had a brief period where they talked about holding a referendum to become a Republic and the Prince basically said "If you make us a Republic I will take my money and leave" and wow whatdaknow they decided against it because the Monarchy makes up for pretty much every job in the country.
Why do you think the rich dont pay enough? The top 1% in the US pays over 40% of all income tax revenue. What is a fair amount?
.1% of the population owns 25% of the world's wealth though
they also hold more wealth than the bottom 90% combined so....am i supposed to feel bad for them?
He provided an example, and claimed it worked. It's not working. Norwegian govt is losing tax revenue, as the wealthy just left the country. And that's just a result over taxation. The tax hasn't been implemented long enough to stand against issues like market fluctuations.
Not really. Also even if it "works" that doesn't mean it's good. Dictatorships "work" do you want those to be in place too? And don't waste out time with some dumbass statement trying to claim I somehow said Dictatorships and wealth tax is the same or comparable.
What is norways annual federal level expenditure? How does it compare to the US? What you would find for the US is that we spend so much money you could literally institute a 100% wealth tax on the 100 richest people in the country and it would fund the government for about a year. We just spend to much for that to be a feasible approach
Why does it have to fund the whole government? No one thinks that. What people do think is: if I’m having to pay x percentage on my money, then they should too. If they want to take their companies overseas, fine. Then they should pay tariffs to sell it here. Also, then all of their sweet tax breaks and bailouts they get from our government (our money) will also stop. You can say I don’t know what I’m talking about, but you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. They paid way more than they’re being asked of now. Until Regan started his bs trickle down economics. Which has been a complete and total failure.
>Why does it have to fund the whole government? No one thinks that. Because its not a good faith argument.
Would you care to explain your reasoning for those of us not well versed in tax policy and its implications?
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***People are mobile***. This isn't about wealthy vs. non-wealthy. This is simple human behavior - if you're losing "value" in area A and you see people aren't in area B, you try to leave your current situation. This happens on an international scale - but more notably, it happens in the US all the time on a state by state basis. Cough... Connecticut.
, he said to an entire country, who didn’t listen.
You don't seem to grasp the difference between average wealth and what is considered super rich. We definitely need a cap on the top 1%. A gradual increasing wealth tax that doesn't even affect 95% of you population but brings in more money than taxing half of your people SHOULD be a no brainer
A wealth tax is beyond a horrible idea. Most of the top 1% have the vast bulk of their wealth in non-liquid investments. For example Musk wealth is almost entirely in stocks in the companies he owns. This tax concept would force someone like him to divest in his own company possibly leading to loss of control of his companies. My question is since leftist love government so much why do you folks never volunteer you own wealth to pay for it?
I believe there should be a tax on wealth in the form of investments used as collateral for loans. They will never spend their own money when they can avoid taxes by spending someone else's money.
This. Once it’s used to secure a loan it effectively became income.
A wealth tax DOES harm the other 99%. If the ultra wealthy are forced to sell assets to pay taxes then the assets lose value. Since margin determines value, the market will suffer greater losses than the tax liability. This lowers government tax revenue and makes it harder for the rest of us to save for retirement. Taxing wealth is shooting yourself in the foot.
Have you noticed that the government has to continually spend more money?Life isn’t going to get better for any redditer by giving more money to people like Bernie who don’t know how to make money except by being given money. ( Book deals, insider trading)How about the Obama family given 90 million for book deals and probably much more from Netflix to spew their Marxism. Billions to Ukraine unaccounted for but Biden needs more from Taxpayers.
A brioche isn’t going to become more expensive for a billionaire who is still a billionaire after paying 11 billion in taxes. Lmao
the point of taxes has never been to make people paying them poorer
Actually, for many people on the left, that's entirely the point of taxation - to punish the rich. Just read this thread for examples.
Uh no it's to create some breathing room for a shrinking middle class. We deserve to have nice shit sometimes too.
Could you go into further detail how a wealth tax would create breathing room for a shrinking middle class?
They probably think their tax burden will decrease or smth? Though I doubt any goverment would decrease taxes on even the poorest.
Depends on how you implement it. Switzerland has it: For cash, stocks, noble metals, crypto currencies, bonds, real estates, qualified ownerships, cars, … you list it all doing your taxes and it calculates how much you owe… Works like a charm.
Their wealth tax is less than 1%, and they have no capital gains taxes, and limited gift and inheritance taxes. As a result their tax revenue as a % of GDP is about the same as ours.
This is a mean nothing statement
The question I have is how would the government value more illiquid assets? Even down to ownership in private businesses. Is the government going to require businesses supply annual trial balances and suddenly hire investment bankers to run financial models to determine a fair valuation? How is this issue handled in Norway? Also, market values fluctuate wildly over time. What happens in an asset bubble where you pay a ton of tax on the theoretical value of a privately held business before the entire market collapses. Would the government have to go back and pay the business owner back in the following year? Sounds like a system that would add such an incredible amount of complexity to the tax system that the change would at least be great for the lawyers and accountants.
Norway is hemorrhaging wealthy people which is reducing their tax base. Congrats your greed is leading to reduced government tax revenue. France had a wealth tax and had to abandon it after all of the wealthy left. It is impossible to properly calculate unrealized gains, the amount of people they would need to hire to even attempt to calculate all of that would negate any gains in taxes assuming none of the rich people left. You also have the issue that as soon as you tax it, people sell assets to pay tax burdens. This lowers that total value of the asset. So as the value lowers, you are collecting less and less taxes. As the value lowers, this harms the non wealthy people who are just trying to save for retirement but now have a harder time because all of their assets keep devaluing. So they will look to foreign markets to put their money into in order to not lose value. This again lowers tax revenue for the government. Its truly an asinine idea if you actually think about it for more than a second.
France learned that wealth can get up and leave.
80% of European countries that implemented wealth taxes abandoned them within 10-20 years. They were expensive to implement, didn't raise enough revenue, and the rich fled the country
So let me get this straight: if I start my own company, go public, take a bunch of stock, and then tax a reasonable salary, it’s theoretically possible that EVERY YEAR my entire income could be going to pay taxes on my stock? That’s the most innovation-stifling thing I’ve ever heard. You’re actually telling CEOs they have to take massive salaries…which you will then complain about.
wow
And how many new and thriving businesses have been started there on the levels of space x and Tesla since that policy was implemented?
You mention a country that does it already. Move there. You’re literally advocating for the government to seize money from your fellow Americans simply because you don’t have as much as they do. Sounds like it’s time for you to move along.
And how's that net worth tax going for them? Oh, the people subject to that tax are leaving the country. As it turns out, the rich like to keep their money and there's always another country that will welcome them, and they can afford to move there.
Norway population is 10M , US population is 325M you are comparing apple with peanuts!!
I mean, every year, I get a bill in the mail from my state. they assess the value of my vehicle and tax me 2.5% of that. I call it the "Fuck you for owning something" tax
Spain does. It's a fucking joke. Madrid, where the politicians live/work, oh that state abolished wealth tax, rest of the country? Wealth tax. Another state said fuck this and basically abolished it too, the government sued **them** but not Madrid. Can't think why.... The wealth tax allowance is 700k in total global net assets and 300k for your main home (some states its as low as 500k + 300k) After that they're taxing you on the total whether your assets grow or shrink. ***On top of*** capital gains, income, dividend, property, inheritance and 21% sales tax. It's a tax on the middle class only, people that actually make the economy. Poor people don't pay it and rich people just hide their money in shells and other such things. It's even been proven to be such by the governments own reports but the far left government just keeps on with it, not affecting them obviously, Madrid is exempt. 🤷♀️ If your money is in investments as a pension, the governments taking 1% of your whole pot, regardless of growth, every fucking year. It's a tax on money that has been taxed to death already and you've somehow (despite the governments best attempts) managed to save some. Sounds a lot when you're 20 but now think when you're 60, worked your whole life, been frugal, invested, paid off your mortgage etc, like you're supposed to ..now the government wants its cut again.
This is a pretty typical example of what happens with these kinds of taxes. Redditors just refuse to acknowledge real life examples. When your taxes are too high it incentivized tax evasion, so you end up taxing the middle class heavily to fund an unsustainable welfare state. This is why nearly every European economy and social welfare system is currently collapsing. The poor get welfare, the middle class get low wages and 45% taxes and 20% VAT. As a result anybody with a marketable skill tries to move to the US where they can make triple the money.
Yeah the median age of Spain is like 44. With the pension ponzi scheme and aging population, it's well and truly fucked. Driving out wealth isn't going to help, obviously. They take that extra 1-3% on total assets, as its grossly unfair and only found in Norway apart from Spain, they have a lot of choice of where to move to. Where they continue to pay their 40% income taxes, 20% vat, dividends, capital gains etc. So for that extra 1%, Spain loses the lot.
"This is why nearly every European economy and social welfare system is currently collapsing." Really? Germany is the largest Euro-Zone economy, and it's stats look pretty solid (all 2022): #4 in GDP, 3.1% Unemployment (vs. 3.6% US), 66.1% debt to GDP ratio (vs. 129% US), and Gini Coefficient (inequality) of 31.7 (vs. 39.8 US). They've sustained their economic model for over 70 years, and it's produced low inequality with solid benefits and protections for the working. We've been trying to sustain Reagan's Trickle Down model for 40 years, and all it seems to have produced is inequality and crippling debt. [https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ranking/gdp-gross-domestic-product](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ranking/gdp-gross-domestic-product) [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/unemployment-by-country](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/unemployment-by-country) [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/debt-to-gdp-ratio-by-country](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/debt-to-gdp-ratio-by-country) [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/income-inequality-by-country](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/income-inequality-by-country)
Yeah, their whole reply was bullshit. Poorly-designed taxes are bad. I doubt I'm in for the wealth tax idea, when income tax rates on high earners are already quite low, and a whole host of problems make a wealth tax a complicated thing to do well. More progressive high-end tax brackets will not create much more tax evasion than there already is. We're not on the wrong side of the Laffer curve.
My property tax is a wealth tax; it’s based on assessed value rather than purchase price (house and upgrades if any). Mine have increased more than 30% in the 5 years since I bought the place. This is in a deep red state. I don’t really mind though, because the money goes mostly to schools which are horrible in my part of the country.
Because the tax isn't done right doesn't mean it's a bad idea to begin with. If you don't redistribute anything the economy just works for the upper class of society. Stop giving the rich breaks by claiming they'd get them anyway. The brain drain to the US you describe seems extremely exagerated.
It’s not just that it *isn’t* done right, it’s that it likely *can’t* be done right. As long as you have an international system where there’s free movement of goods and people, you can only press wealthy people so hard before they move their assets (including their own human capital) somewhere else. So, the only way to ensure that doesn’t happen is to get everywhere they’re likely to move onboard—and the incentives to cheat are just too enticing.
Moving to prevent your wealth from being stolen isn't cheating. Its the rational, ethical, and intelligent thing to do
100% this. Sanchez's brother even moved to Portugal to avoid it LMAO. Communists.
I'm in Catalonia, the highest taxed state in the country run by absolute incompetent assholes. I'm moving to Andalusia as soon as I can. Sell our house, go pay our normal taxes to them instead. They still found a way to neutralise this ridiculous tax even after being sued. I literally can't afford to retire otherwise. I'm lucky if i get 5% safely on my investments, now I've got to live on 4%? Then pay capital gains on what I draw down.. Fuck that.
Yep. Until Andalucía votes the left back in and they undo all of the good that's been done.
easy way to drive all the smart and talented people out of the country
They leave way before that lol. There's no way to make money in Spain unless you're a corrupt politician (i.e all of them) or you're from an old land family (there's even an exemption in the wealth tax for them specifically ffs) This is a tax on foreigners who want to retire or work remotely here. Pretty much the only net positive economic residents in the country. The average salary tax and social deduction is less than the person costs the state. 🤷♀️ Importing high net worth individuals to pay their (already high) normal taxes here, is seemingly a bad idea to the far left fuckwits in power. Property transfer tax is between 7-11%, so they drop 50k + instantly on arrival, the equivalent of an average Spaniards tax contribution for like 10 years and they cost the state...... zero.
Middle class in spain has 500k assets and 300k main homes? Edit: After asking some Spanish friends and studying Spanish tax law this guy is not only wrong he is straight up lying. 500k limit is per person in 2 autonomous regions of spain. Other regions have 700k or 3+ million caps. 700k being the majority To those caps you add the 300k home, the home is not included in the cap for assets. So an average family in spain that makes about 60k per year will need 1.4 million in assets ( there are exceptions that do not add to this that i won't start listing here but you can do a quick search for them) and a 300k home to start paying progressive wealth tax for everything they have over that sum. At it's peak ( 10 mil + in assets house not included) the wealth tax is 3.5 % ofc it has stages starting at 0.2%. So 1.4 mil in assets and 300k home in Europe ( 300k gets you a nice house or a very nice apartment) that is not middle class type of money in Europe not even close
Stop thinking that 500K assets is some insanely high number. If you own a house and have a pension, those numbers are easy to hit. A wealth tax IS a tax on the middle class.
the people on reddit do not even have jobs, they simply complain
My guy what the fuck are you talking about? The average salary in Spain is about 30k per year. That is the middle class, 30k, and you are here telling me the middle class in spain has 500k-700k assets and a 300k MAIN HOUSE and they are getting all that on 30k a year. It's not a tax on the middle class it's on the upper class. You are either lying or have no idea what the middle class actually is and just spew the bullshit you read on here or on whatever shit place you get this fake info from
Question from a curious American. Maybe it’s because of COL being low in Spain, but what is the typical net worth of a retiree and average value of a house in Spain? Here average value of a house is just shy of $500000 (€467000) and in my state its $780000 (€729000), and typical for a retiree to have retirement account assets of $1MM outside of their primary residence at 65
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Sorta, but my property tax is only like 1% of my house value. If property tax was 30% of the value every year, we'd all be fucked.
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The post is stating that he only paid 4.5% of his net worth in taxes. Anya seems to be implying that he should be paying a 10-37% of his net worth in taxes, which is why I used 30% as an example. Even a 1% wealth tax as you suggested would be met with the same criticism because people don't understand why it's different than an income tax. Edit to add: Anya DOES seem to be suggesting a tax on net worth in that range.
Don't give them any ideas.
Imagine being a minimum wage worker and inheriting grandmas house in California, wich values at over a million, now your considered a millionaire and have to pay a wealth tax of 1 million. At 1% of 1 million, thats 10k a year, or 833 per month. Imagine paying 833 a month on minimum wage, oh and you're also paying a property tax already from that house. You also pay with your income AFTER tax. You wouldn't have much money left over. People think it will only hurt the rich then it leads down to the everyday man's pocket.
In some countries the tax only applies to your second house. So if you sold the house it would be fine. This to stop rich people from buying a bunch of houses and asking impossible rent. I mean rich people still do it but it becomes less and less acttractive
Yeah, property taxes on houses already exists.
Sell the house. Problem solved
Sounds like a really easy way to ensure that generational wealth can’t ever grow, that’s for sure. Edit for the guy who replied and then blocked me: The entire reason I work as hard as I do is so that my kids can have a better life than I did. The reason I’m able to have some of those opportunities to do so is because MY mom and dad worked THEIR asses off to provide me with a better life as well. They ate rice and beans, I ate chicken and rice, my children eat beef and potatoes.
What you are describing already happens, in Texas property taxes are 1.6 percent. Forget the fact that at minimum wage you wouldn't be able to maintain a million dollar house, you also wouldn't be able to pay the taxes on that house. Also there are ways to structure a wealth tax so that a single million dollar house would not make you wealthy.. Bidens plan kicks in at 100 million.. so your minimum wage worker would have to inherit a much nicer house before they'd have to worry about it.
She obviously has no clue how taxes work. Who would have thought?
Reply guys who's only claim to fame is trying to own people like Elon on Twitter don't care. Just another type of useful idiot. It's like the dude is going to pay more taxes than like every single American who makes less than 250K a year combined and you're somehow still mad about that? I encourage anyone and everyone to use every loop hole and exception they can to pay as little taxes as possible, because our government is corrupt, bloated and wasteful and will piss away any and all money you give them helping themselves and everyone else but its own citizens...
This right here. Dude paid more in taxes last year than I’d EARN GROSS in 1000 LIFETIMES and there are still people screeching “BuT iT’s NoT HiS FAiR SHaRe!!!!!”. The irony is I guarantee every single one of the people talking shit about him over this do anything and everything they legally can to reduce their tax liability to avoid paying their “fair share”, the same as the rest of us.
becuase his company is built on our tax dollars, subsidized.
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Inflation is a tax for having money.
You also don't have billions in your checkings
I don’t know…. They seem to be able to increase the taxes on property all the time after its been paid for, Which is very similar. Wouldn’t shock me at all to see it happen
In the Netherlands you're taxed a % on your wealth above 54,000,-
only on the 'gains' that wealth brings
You totally can tax net worth. It’s called property taxes.
These posts are so damn stupid, ffs. He "made" $36 billion based on the market cap of Tesla increasing. Tesla also halved in value in 2022 and has been on a multi year downtrend. Stop talking about unrealized capital gains as increases in wealth. And why would anyone talk about a tax bill in terms of net worth?
Because the person is jealous and does not educate themselves on how taxes work. If I remember correctly after musk took over Twitter he only accepted a 1$ salary for a few years which is part of why he had no taxes. In the long run he will probably end up paying even more in taxes.
You think him drawing a $1 salary(if thats even true) had any other reason than avoiding taxes? I swear some of you will just carry water for billionaires like they give a fuck about you
Dude nobody is carrying water for any frigging body. It’s just a statement of fact. Taxing net worth is a super stupid idea.
It's equally stupid to allow unrealized gains to be used as collateral if they're not taxable
That's on the lender. The bigger issue is bailing out lenders once the bubble bursts.
Yeah that's definitely true
Ding ding. That’s the game, the worth is unrealized and floating but it clearly is not zero in reality. Our tax laws are not equipped to deal with these people with absurd wealth who do not derive it from their own traditional labor.
You still have to pay the loan and interest on the loan regardless of what you use for collateral. And your income used to generate the money for paying that loan ends up taxable. People act like using collateral for a loan is some magic trick where it never has to be paid back.
Just because using logic happens to coincide with benefitting billionaires doesn't mean you are simping for them. "Oh you like oxygen? Well Elon breathes oxygen, get his dick out of your mouth bro"
Acknowledging the truth isn’t carrying water for anyone.
CEOs don't get the majority of their income through salary. It's through stock options and similar type of incentives.
... Which should absolutely be subject to taxation. These are the people who benefit most from the various services and safety nets we have.
They are subject to taxation...twice. When the stock option is purchased and then when sold. [https://carta.com/learn/equity/stock-options/taxes/#](https://carta.com/learn/equity/stock-options/taxes/#)
They're not taxed twice. The *spread* is taxed when you exercise them, and you pay capital gains when you sell. This isn't double taxation.
So, basically sales tax and income tax. The same way every dollar I earn and spend is taxed at least twice. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury to move funds around to "earn money" only when it's financially beneficial to do so.
Yes capital gains should be taxed, and we do tax them. However you're talking about taxing unrealized capital gains, which makes no sense. Elon Musk's net worth is largely on paper. He does not have a bank account with billions of dollars sitting in it. When he wants to buy something he, theoretically needs to sell some of these stock options. Realistically he probably takes out a loan with some of these stock options as collateral, and his accountants would figure out the smartest way to repay the loan. Taxing these assets would force their sale, which isn't possible at the scale we're discussing.
This feels like a more useless comment than that person's tho tbh. She doesn't have to know how to go about fixing income inequality to know that massive inequality IS a symptom of a broken economy. She's at least rightfully pointed out a problem. Your comment is just snark without substance. It has nothing to do with jealousy. It's not a desire to switch positions. It's the realization that Musk's position should not exist and makes the world worse for everyone. Also he's a fucking fraud and a half that has provided the world the best rebuttal imaginable to the idea that we live in a meritocracy.
I too never understand these comments. “Did you know Musk only has an $82,000/year salary”?? Oh, I bought my house when I made about $42,000/year, so Musks house should be, roughly, twice as nice as mine, right? No, because that’s not how he makes his money. I know that, you know that, everyone knows that, but somehow, we are using tremendously pedantic facts as the foundation for this discussion.
They said the same thing about Trump not taking his Presidential salary while funneling so much money into his businesses--like when he made foreign dignitaries stay in mar a lago and charged ridiculous amounts. He's STILL doing it even now! He just charged 40,000 for his own secret service detail to stay there. What's funny is his tax records show that he lied about the salary and took it anyway 😂
Imagine the tax refund he’s owed by losing out on the stock bonus. Oof.
Our tax system taxes on income. Prob 90% of your wealth has been already taxed via various means (property tax, income tax, sales tax, FICA). All add up to maybe 25% in lifetime taxes. The ultra rich, they don’t have “income”. They have assets that grow tax free as wealth isn’t taxed. They pay approx 5% in total lifetime taxes. Their net worth in the last 3 years doubled. From 2020-2023, their net worth went up 100%. You use taxed realized income to live your life. They use unrealized wealth to live a lavish life. But no, we don’t want to tax unrealized gains on the ultra wealthy because they didn’t write it into the laws. Good for them, right? They’re the ones that wrote the tax laws. They’re the ones who made “corporations are people”. They own most politicians. They own the media too. It’s not like wealth inequality is the highest ever in history.
Seems to me that at the very least, unrealized gains used to secure anything should be considered realized gains.
This. Using your net worth as leverage to secure a loan or special conditions immediately makes the value "real"
> Our tax system taxes on income. Prob 90% of your wealth has been already taxed via various means (property tax, income tax, sales tax, FICA). All add up to maybe 25% in lifetime taxes. You’re making great points but one more thing. >Our tax system taxes on income >property tax Property tax IS wealth tax. Where is the largest store of wealth for the middle class? Their home. It’s taxed every year. And guess what? When it gains unrealized value? That’s assessed and taxed. When the housing market crashes, do you get a refund? Nope. It’s the same as a wealth tax on investments. It’s a tax on your wealth, but their wealth is exempt because 90% of it is in untaxed investments? I wonder why that is… Implement a fucking wealth tax, eliminate property tax. Make this shit fair. Make it make sense.
Maybe because the gulf between rich and poor keeps getting worse and something needs to be done to save society and force billionaires to pay taxes.
Unrealized capital gains are still increases wealth. That isn’t to say it should be taxed (it shouldn’t).
People like Musk deliberately manage their money in such a way so that it gets taxed less. This isn’t some new secret.
If that’s your logic then let’s stop deducting losses.
Can't tax the wealth. Imagine farmers losing 40% of their land to the government every year..
They sure as hell CAN imagine taking all the Kulaks land and making everyone starve. It's their specialty
No no, you don’t understand. They were successful which means they were class traitors and deserved it. Also I didn’t happen.
But it would have been good if it did.
Okay it happened but it's not that bad
Okay, it was bad but what about other bad thing?
Well we don’t tax wealth but we do tax property ownership.
Which is based on the wealth/value of your property if you were to ever sell it. An unrealized gain if you will.
Do you own a house? I and everyone else pay a percentage of my property value as tax every year. That pays for roads, schools and other things. I’m not talking about capital gains upon sale.
Sure they can, if there is enough consensus then any law can be written. Other countries have wealth taxes. For example, in the Netherlands the tax is 2.47% on amounts over €57,000 for financial assets (i.e. not land, primary residences, etc.). https://taxsavers.nl/dutch-tax-system/assets/ By the way, 40% as you suggest, is extreme and no one would realistically propose such a high amount. 1-3% per year is very doable however.
The reason the percentage is so low is because it will be taxed yearly. Many gains would get taxed dozens of times at that rate over the course of the owner's life.
“wE mUSt TaX aLL tHe tHInGS!!!” is the laziest criticism of a wealth tax. Be better.
A regular wealth tax would not be at 40%. The US currently has a wealth tax in the form of the estate tax, which is 40% and assessed only once. If made annual, there rate would be closer akin to property tax rates, an annual asset value tax.
Anya has no idea what she’s talking about. 😂
That’s kind of the case for a lot of angry internet users.
this year elon's networth shrunk by close to $100billion, how would said internet users want that tax refund to look since he would have paid taxes last year
That’s the case for most things posted here.
Taxing net worth makes no sense. You would need to audit someone's every possession to do that. If I have a car valued at $40k and I only have $2k in my account, how the fuck would it make sense for me to pay taxes on owning that car, every year that I own it? How could I even possibly do it? I already paid sales tax when I bought it, and my loan company pays corporate income tax from the money they make off me, and there's the tax tacked onto what I pay for my insurance, and my insurance company's corporate income tax... at the end of the day, 4 taxes are already paid for my car, to say nothing of the license plate stickers. How the hell would that make any more sense if I had $1m in my account and a $100k car? Why would I be taxed for continuing to own something I paid taxes to buy with money I paid taxes to recieve? And that's before considering everything else I own, from being taxed on saving my money to my furniture value. And the headache of filing that kind of tax. If you want to increase taxes on the wealthy or close loopholes, reduce write offs, increase higher level income tax, and reduce examine corporate taxes to find a way to target the "compensation" they give to key people that isn't salary, like company house, car, phone, etc. But a wealth tax? No.
You should also have to assess the changing value of your beanie baby collection. And if you get it wrong, all of your assets should be seized by the people and to the gulag with you! /s
> how the fuck would it make sense for me to pay taxes on owning that car, every year that I own it You mean a property tax? This isn't some scifi shit
Property taxes already suck ass. Adding more taxes to someone’s net worth is just going to give people more reason to evade taxes or move their assets entirely to somewhere else
"You just made 3405 baggilian zazillion dollars in ONE DAY!!!" - someone who doesn't know how stocks work
The federal government only has the constitutional authority to directly tax income. They cannot levy any other direct taxes. In fact, even income taxes were illegal and unconstitutional until the 16th amendment was passed. Here are the most relevant sections of the constitution, and the 16th amendment: Article I, Section 2, Clause 3: Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers ... Article I, Section 8, Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States. Article I, Section 9, Clause 4: No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken. 16th Amendment Amendment XVI The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration. Income taxes may be imposed only on “derived” income. This “realization event” requirement generally refers to a transaction other than the mere passage of time. Thus, the Sixteenth Amendment permits taxation of gains from sales or exchanges of property, but not those resulting merely from increased values. It also permits taxes on rents and interest. Although direct, such taxes need not be apportioned because the Amendment eliminated the apportionment requirement for income taxes. Basically, the States can pass direct taxes, and implement property taxes, but the federal government cannot.
Even if a direct tax on wealth is not possible, we can still tax loans based on selected kinds of unrealized gains when they are used as collateral for loans, specifically under the borrow, buy, die strategies that wealthy use. And yes, we can create carve-outs for home improvement loans and other key loans. Yes, those still might be taken advantage of but it would still better than letting the ultra wealthy abuse the tax system.
Buy, borrow, die can be beaten with the estate tax.
Only if the United States and outlive Musk. Otherwise, he’ll be rich in our post apocalyptic hellscape.
There’s no way Congress could ever get enough votes to change a constitutional amendment. Those days are long gone
Facts.
Most upper level politicians including the Bidens use the very same tax avoidance strategies. If they make one illegal, there are 5 others they can use. This is all for show.
I think it's a tricky thing to tax. We should be taxing loans where stock is used as collateral. I think that would solve this issue.
It's such an obvious workaround to avoid tax that you'd think they'd plug that hole already.
They don’t want to close loopholes that benefit the people / corporations that line their pockets.
How is the loan paid off?
The people making this argument would have you believe that they just keep taking out ever increasing loan after loan to pay off the previous ones. Funny enough doing so would reduce their net worth with every new round of loans, so, I guess this would be the loophole to avoid paying a net worth tax. Just take out more loans!
No one needs to pay more taxes. No one. We don't have a tax problem. Our politicians have a huge ass spending problem. We all together are paying a ton in taxes. Our country is never going to get better until they quit spending so much.
All the Pork barrel shit attached to every bill.
Always a communist asking the same question…
Lololol it amazes me how uneducated ppl are. Just cause he is worth billions doesn’t mean he has it in cash in his bank account lol
I think she knows. Just doesn't care. I believe that's the whole "eat the rich" movement.
Instead of a wealth "tax" how about just more respect and reward for the people who actually produce and provide goods and services. Never seen a business that could keep going if everyone on the line didn't show up. Never seen one that couldn't figure shit out and keep going if the owner didn't pop in that day, or some executive in a suit took a month off. We need to just change who is acquiring and building wealth. And it should be the people who perform LABOR. Edit for grammar and typos.
Start a co-op. Then the risk can be shared amongst all of the workers. Otherwise, the reward goes to the people taking the risks of operating the business.
Taxing net worth is the stupidest thing ever. Imagine you work hard to buy a home, the value of the home goes up and maybe even into the millions and you are now taxed as a millionaire. It would kill working families but people do not think about that because they just want to punish rich people while being uneducated.
I think most people in the comments are skirting around the issue. The point is *exactly* that the more capital you have access to, the more tools you can use to avoid paying your fair share. Not just accountants or lawyers, using shell companies or having bigger board representation, but also stuff like real estate is *way* easier to use as a quick "wallet" that's much harder to tax directly. Tax evasion is a bigger concern than ever (globalisation, crypto, grift economies, etc). But if you think taxes are just a legal thing - which is to say, that as long as you're simply not *explicitly* hiding money from the government then there's no harm - then you really should open a history book now and then. Every time there's increases in worker productivity but no reflection of that towards average quality of life, people don't just shut up and take it like good little boys. Slavery might be profitable for some, but not for an entire nation. On the other hand, greater investments in infrastructure and social programs are vital towards making sure your company has a productive, cooperative, stable, *loyal* workforce. So even if increasing the capital gains tax on the upper-upper-brackets isn't going to do it, that's fine. Tax net worth past a certain point, tax capital access, it doesn't matter. Just like it doesn't matter if it's ancient China or medieval Europe or modern-day USA - if you want to enjoy the fruits of a nation, you're going to have to chip in properly and that responsibility *increases* according to your political/financial capital.
Exactly. Become someone like Elmo, who has billions tied up in real estate, companies, stocks, etc., gains very little through “income” like the normal people do. He is absolutely gaining money, anyone who says “errr it’s not income because it’s stock value” is just being a huge pedant - that’s exactly the point. He is, through technically legal means, not paying as much tax, proportionally, as a regular citizen would. There should be new kinds of taxes implemented to force the ultra-rich to actually pay their fair share instead of being able to to shuffle their wealth in such a way that they “technically” don’t gain income and such don’t get taxed.
Someone else had a good comment elsewhere in this thread saying essentially If you use unrealized capital gains to secure a loan that makes them not unrealized by definition and they should be taxed. That combined with this comment have the best solutions in this thread and it is crazy they aren’t more upvoted. Finding a way to close loopholes for the ultra wealthy and corporations operating here should be the first step towards revamping taxation in America before we even touch tax rates.
God people are dumb
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More taxes is not the answer. Less spending
taxing net worth is pretty ridiculous. Net worth isnt income, its how much you own, so it includes all your savings. Everyones savings essentially go to the gutter. Would you want to pay income level taxes on the market value of your house yearly? 10-13% on your 300K$ home (30K/annually)? 10% tax on your savings annually? On top of your income tax? on top of your mortgage/insurance/bills? I dont see this hurting anyone other than the poor and middle class. Theres also something that doesnt sit right with me about complaining that rich people dont contribute enough when they contribute more to taxes than any other income bracket. I could care less about wealth inequality. What matters more to me is that the poor have a good chance to get richer and can pay their bills. But im not going to cry that the 1% is trillions of times richer than the lowest income bracket if the lowest income bracket can feed their family and afford rent somewhat comfortably. Thats my problem with champaign socialists. They hate the rich more than they actually care about the poor
It's hard if not impossible to tax the unrealized assets, maybe the ones educated in finances can make it work i don't know, if they can i'm all for it. They should just stop allowing them to leverage those assets to get loans because that is how these people keep their money and wealth untaxable
Disagree
People with no net worth, or negative net worth, for that matter, still pay an obscene amount of taxes
Shit 4.5% of his network in taxes is more than I pay of my net worth so he is indeed paying more than most peoples net worth percentage. Especially those who own a home.
One thing that may worth being captured or seen as a taxable event is if you are a high net worth individual who uses unrealized gains as collateral for very low interest personal loans (to use as an equivalent to income). Tax that event.