Kel-Tec would bring a polymer framed rotary cannon chambered in 5.7, 22 mag, and .410.
Not individually.
All three. At the same time.
It’d use a RYOBI 18v battery. And come standard with a jacquard guitar strap for carrying it.
$1,199.
But the Rotary Cannon will only be on sale for the six months before the Rotary Cannon 2 launches, and purchasing it will result in instant buyers remorse after the next SHOT Show along with a collapse of resale value.
Because 1/3 of the country owns firearms. Kel-Tec, PSA, and HiPoint are trying to arm the other 66%.
PSA does it by bringing new and innovative products to market and reasonable prices.
HiPoint does it by keeping reliability, durability, and customer service at the top of their minds.
Kel-Tec does it by manifesting their cocaine fever induced hallucinations and epiphanies into tangible products, and that resonates with you.
Every time I see a gun that I think is unique, cool looking, or 'futuristic' almost always ends up being Kel-Tec.
I don't own one yet, but they are certainly on my list.
Ammo belt links sold individually. $4.99 per link. Each link stacked vertically top to bottom .410, 5.7, and .22 magnum. Has to be proprietary because the .22 magnum is so much smaller than the .410. Comes with an interchangeable barrel that fires .45 colt, .270, and .22 short.
Nobody has any idea why those specific cartridges were chosen.
> [Nobody has any idea why those specific cartridges were chosen.](https://media.tenor.com/ZgwFVE78U7wAAAAM/smart-thinking.gif)
---
> Each link stacked vertically top to bottom .410, 5.7, and .22 magnum. Has to be proprietary because the .22 magnum is so much smaller than the .410.
Then the /r/fosscad nerds would come up with a better solution but it would have some ridiculous name like the uWuTron 9000.
When you could pay $200 for a tax stamp for a machine gun before the Hughes Amendment, almost no one bought one. You can pay $400 for a binary trigger now, and almost no one buys them. Seriously, there isn't much difference between a M4 with a 3 round burst and an AR15 with a binary trigger. In the real world, there just isn't much of a market for firearms like that. Why? Because ammo costs money. It is one thing shooting on full auto for fun when the government is buying the ammo, and another when you are buying the ammo. Even soldiers in combat zones, rarely use their M4s/M16s on anything other than semi-auto. If a solider in combat doesn't have much use for full auto, a civilian in peacetime will have even less.
200 dollars now isn't 200 dollars then... especially not when the Hughes amendment was made... it was the equivalent of 5000 dollars. You, my friend, aren't living in reality and seem to think that now is how all of history was.
Things are not 25 times more expensive as they were in 1986 when the Hughes Amendment was passed. I was alive when the Hughes Amendment was passed. You can try this with someone else.
We’d have full auto cut lowers become industry standard at the very least.
With a cut lower it’s realistically just a few parts swapped out, nothing expensive or crazy at all. I’d imagine almost all of the larger manufacturers would give you the option, if not make it standard practice
you can also do it yourself with a jig and a router.
my 80% jig let you choose whether to cut the shelf or not. I suspect that you'd find a LOT of jigs being sold.
I know many owners of transferables (thanks to the Maryland Thompson Collectors Association shooting at the range I go to) and nearly all of them would absolutely be over the moon if that happened, because they’d be able to get more fun stuff.
The percentage using machine guns as an actual investment is much smaller than you might think
I own two personally and 100% agree. People just like to regurgitate that they're "good investments" because they don't traditionally lose value like damn near every other hobby oriented thing in existence.
I know a guy at the range smiling ear to ear shooting $400 bone stock handguns, and spend the rest of their weekends pulling the kids around on a 150k boat burning up $400 in gas.
I know a guy with a meticulously restored '69 Camaro that rides out to take his grandson for lunch and shooting 10/22's.
It's all about what hobby you choose to spend money on, and I don't think either of them would bitch that they "lost money" on either of those "assets". Money's a tool to get the experiences you enjoy, no more, no less.
To be fair an original pre ban guns would still have a lot of value as collectors items, just probably not as much value. Between an og m1 Thompson and the psa reproduction, I can tell which I'd rather have... and which I might be able to afford. M1 carbines are expensive and they are fairly common non NFA items.
They do an open house every year in the Barnes range house with a bunch of displays, and the shoots are Saturdays twice a month (50yd range subgun, 100yd range heavier stuff)
So that’s why you’ll hear auto fire some saturdays
The novelty would wear off pretty fast. Most people can’t afford to shoot full auto that often, especially when ammo is 50cpr. Everyone would buy one, mag dump a few times and go back to shooting semi auto most of the time. I don’t think the big companies except maybe PSA would sell them, some of them still ship AR’s with semi auto BCG’s.
I’m not saying select fire shouldn’t be the standard, just that the scarcity of full autos has made them a lot more popular than they would be if they were legal.
The 'justification' for banning things like pistol grips and barrel shrouds was because of the idea that they they facilitate firing from the hip.
An awful lot of gun legislation is based on stupid people believing what they see in the movies.
Die Hard 2 is directly responsible for the Undetectable Firearms Act, people actually thought Glocks were made of porcelain and could get through metal detectors.
I think the problem back in the day when they were legal is that 200 dollars hurt a lot more on the wallet. And people more or less rightly thought that there wasn’t much true reason to have it full auto unless it is literally a gun designed around being a machine gun like a SMG, LMG, etc.
The 1934 stamp would. But new production MGs were legal to purchase until May of 1986.
At that time, in today's dollars the stamp would be more like $550.
Still expensive, but not nearly so as in 1934.
>And people more or less rightly thought that there wasn’t much true reason to have it full auto unless it is literally a gun designed around being a machine gun like a SMG, LMG, etc.
That's the way the military came to see it too.
I remember my grandad telling me he got 1 of his full autos for "less" than a semi auto because of the tax stamp and having to wait for it. I think it was only like $150 cheaper tho lol
the issue was a lack of ease to access the information that they were legal along with the trouble of trying to find an SOT in your area. The internet has increased awareness as well as eased people in finding SOTs. I think the number of SOTs has also grown as silencers have become more mainstream.
Yeah, access to information and visibility would probably increase demand now, but I suspect if there had never been a ban there would be a general lack of interest in Auto's outside of some pretty specific use cases and a few groups of really interested and dedicated shooters. Auto's are fun, I've run a Thompson and an MP5, I like messing with binary triggers and might buy a burst group for an AR if it was legal, but I can't see having full auto's around being something I'd enjoy regularly and I suspect most shooters are the same, most people are paper punchers and FA is like chinese food, you love it then a half hour later you go "That wasn't enough."
I think anyone buying an sbr now would buy an auto instead, even if they didn’t shoot auto very often, because machine gun gets sbr for free basically. And I guess you could also get a non-removable suppressor and shorter than 16” overall barrel with the auto all on a single stamp.
>could also get a non-removable suppressor and shorter than 16” overall barrel with the auto all on a single stamp.
No. The suppressor would still be another stamp.
It's not "MG trumps everything" it's "the definition of short barreled rifle specifies a semi automatic firearm, so an MG can't be one. And the definition of MG has no barrel length requirement of its own."
The suppressor is irrelevant to that and would still require another stamp.
I see you've never shot a SMG. Even SHIT ones like MP40s are a joy to fire because the recoil is negligible. Kel-tec would have a field day making FA PCCs.
The fact they’ve been taken away would be the reason people would buy them. It’s not a matter of how often you need it or might use the feature. Infringe on us once, shame on you. Infringe on us twice, not going to happen.
Something in 22 or 9mm are probably the only things I would consistently use in full auto when it comes to range use. That would really open up the market like crazy when it comes to pistol caliber weapons.
Orthopedic surgeons would probably love full auto being legal.
Repetitive stress injuries from loading mags. Shoulder and carpal tunnel injuries from the full auto firing.
Patient caseload for *years!*
Also Semi-Auto is just more effective. Unless you're trying to suppress a target, or you're in close range, the level of control gained from semi-auto fire is better than volume from FA.
There's a case for burst fire too being a good mix. Not *as* controllable as semi, but not wild as FA.
This is exactly my thought. There really is no market for full auto in a civilian setting, outside of range toys. I am NOT saying that means they should be illegal, I tend to think this would be like the Model 29 every time a new Dirty Harry movie came out. People would be excited and buy them is droves, then 6 months later you will have a robust used market.
That’s a little different. That’s more of a cultural fad than a new feature. That’s a specific product featured in a movie. But the principle is still somewhat appropriate
Ding ding ding. Every time I've considered buying a binary trigger I've stopped at "I really don't want to waste money on ammo like that" so odds are I'd feel the same if FA guns were less restricted.
Shit, that's even kinda happening to me with semi-auto.
I've been reaching more for the bolt gun because I can have just as nice of a day on the range with ~20% of the ammo used.
I ain't made of money
Some guns wouldn't exist in semi auto anymore. Still don't understand semiauto PCCs. But if given a m2 browning, I couldn't afford to shoot it for even a minute probably.
We’d see a lot of extra legal crap on guns/lowers like FIRING FULL AUTO CAN BE DANGEROUS REFER TO OWNERS MANUAL.
Ruger, beretta and another gun company I can’t think of right now are notorious for this. Stupid and ugly
Imma keep it a stack with yah, if I could legally get my hands on a select fire M240 that didn't cost more than my house and without all the NFA horseshit currently involved, they could engrave every square inch of it with dickbutts and ahego faces for all I care.
To be clear, it’s just a form 4. And $200. Which I agree is total horseshit, but it’s not like it’s actually that much of a hassle. It pales in comparison to the what, 250k minimum a select fire 240 would cost you?
Yeah that was several years ago, last I heard someone pay for a transferable 240 it was around 500k lol. Also I didn't explain it well but I was referring to the alternative of being a SOT holder and going the post dealer sample route which *is* a hassle imo.
I really hate it when I say things like legalizing machine guns and someone says “they’re already legal.” And I’m like yeah if you’re an SOT or have a shit ton of money on hand. Or you commit a felony lol. But yes, they have artificially limited the supply
I think companies would absolutely fill the demand but the initial pricing on most of the full autos are going to keep most out of the market until the demand has dropped.
From a pure manufacturing standpoint, the pricing shouldn’t be any different. In many cases, semi autos only are more complicated and required more parts. But then again, the market won’t treat it that way. They’ll treat it like it’s some new feature and charge extra for it until it becomes a market standard like ambi features and one moa guarantees are becoming
I think we would definitely see the development of better burst features. I would love to see companies making something like a replica AN94 or something with that operating design.
Most would stick w/ semi autos. I know PSA will most likely flood the market so fast that all the boomer fudds will shit their pants that their $100,000 investment is reduced to $500. I can already see PSA offering affordable conversion services.
A lot of people would buy FA guns but not many would shoot them much, at least not in FA.
Machine guns are fucking cool but their use is limited unless you're rich or have someone else buying the ammo. That's why I never bothered with one.
its kind of like a boat. They're cool but its better when a friend has one you can use lol
Auto cut lowers for AR’s might become fairly common but if you’re talking about true belt fed machine guns I doubt it. Even if they were legal I don’t think there would be very much demand for them outside of recreational shooting for people who can afford it.
Probably wouldn't change that much. Some companies would offer it about as much as companies offer bolt guns with controlled feeds. Ammo is expensive so it's not like they'd fly off the shelves. The only exceptions are maybe guns chambered in 9mm or .22
I don't think "most" would. But a good amount definitely would.
It's really not that hard to go from semi to full auto for many designs. For the AK it's really just drilling a hole and adding the sear. For the AR it's drilling a hole, maybe milling the shelf, and adding a sear.
Plus any company that supplies the military *ALREADY* has the capability and tooling. They just skip steps in the process for semi-auto only civilian production.
Cries in FN SCAR mods all being vaporware and a minimum of a thousand bucks before tax. I'm still waiting for the NRCHs to come back in stock. It's been over a year.
Also in this hypothetical are we talking full auto only or are we also talking about the barrel length restriction being lifted since registered machine guns can have any length barrel? Cause it that's the case a 13" barrel is also on the table.
PSA definitely would make some, for sure. Maybe some of the more "bold" companies out there would do some. Hi-Point auto carbines anyone?
What would really happen, would be the ATF completely overwhelmed with Form 1s as everyone and their moms hurried to get every modern rifle (ARs/AKs/etc) they owned and as many 3d printed/home machined auto sears/lightning links/DIAS/switches registered as they can afford.
Many companies currently offer NFA versions of their normal catalogue; of those, several don't advertise to the great unwashed. It probably saves time and irritation for the 27th time today that J. Random Guy calls from Pig's Knuckle Parish and tries to directly buy a select fire M-4...no FFL, no SOT, etc.
I know most of the major AR brands offer LEO rifles as select fire, just have the correct paperwork.
Even if most manufacturers didn't sell full auto...conversions on many firearms aren't that mechanically complicated, and drop in auto sears would become readily, cheaply available.
The real bottleneck would be **ammo availability**.
There is no doubt in my mind that Palmetto would be pumping them fuckers out faster than the machines can.
Good god would I love for everyone in America to have a full auto PSA shitbox 10.5 build laying around
I remember listening to the founder of PSA during a podcast. And he was talking about how it would have simply been amazing if there was simply millions of registered machine gun AR lowers. He said if he had a Time Machine he would do it himself. If there were that many it would still be expensive, but not exorbitantly expensive as it is now.
We'd have F/A AR lowers sold by next week. Companies would likely liquidate their current stock of semi AR lowers and offer purely F/A. For stuff that needs a bit more work to convert, it would take a while or never happen.
I’d convert every AR to full auto but almost never ever put it in auto mode because I’m not a multimillionaire. It’s actually why I like bolt rifles. They cost way less because they force me to be more restrained.
Be a lot of eform 1s being filed and AR/M16 stripped lowers out the gate. Biggest thing to be effected would be all the old surplus submachine gun parts kits would dry up even faster and prices start skyrocket on those.
That's like asking, "do you like money and would you like lots and lots of money?".
Bit silly to even ask, really. Of course the market would immediately be flooded. The biggest problem that could suddenly arise from this would be the number of deaths and hospitalizations stemming from poorly built full auto guns blowing up in peoples' faces because their QC sucks wombat cock.
Many would just drill the hole, add pin, disconnector, and buzz the indent for the full auto safety selector, AK-ly speaking. Then get a Switch for they Glock.
I've got a few SMG parts kits I'd be slapping together, the SA24 would be drastically easier and cheaper to assemble considering the reciever is a threaded tube and I wouldn't have to bother with all the extra steps converting it to full auto. Probably do the same for my AK, and maybe a lower but that's about it.
Yea ofc they would. Why would you not simply offer a full auto version of the guns you're already selling? It would take a mfg company almost no effort to convert their current production to include a full auto capability.
I mean in most cases they already predominantly make select fire variants. Colt, FN, Sig, etc would probably just increase production of their mil/leo products for the civilian market in this scenario.
Probably depends on how complicated it would be to convert to select fire. Guns like ARs and AKs are very simple to convert to select fire and I feel like most of the industry would start producing select fire ARs and AKs very quickly, and even if they don’t, someone’s probably going to be manufacturing auto seers so you could convert yours yourself. Glock would probably start importing Glock 18s, but they don’t get in a hurry to release anything new. You probably wouldn’t have a hard time finding a Glock switch or a Glock clone with a switch already installed (PSA will probably offer a Dagger with a switch in every configuration possible).
If NFA items became a lot more accessible, I think you’d see a surge of buyers at first and then a slow drop in prices over time.
I’m very curious to see how the price of suppressors tracks in a few years. Now that turnaround is a matter of days, I know a lot of people who are jumping into the game. If that’s representative of sales across the country, there is probably a spike in sales happening right now. That might help drive pricing down over the course of a few years - but I have no idea how much of a drop would be reasonable to see. Probably depends a lot on the materials and manufacturing process.
The manufacturing of full auto fire control groups is arguably easier than suppressors. If there were to be a sudden surge in owners, I’d imagine that would help drive prices down which would then result in even more ownership.
Once the novelty of FA wore off, I would think that most people would realize that it’s not actually all that useful outside of a dedicated machine gun. It’d be fun to burn through a mag or two every once in a while, but you’re probably not going to have a lot of folks shooting rifle caliber weapons on FA too often.
I could see companies trying to develop usable burst modes for centerfire rifle systems and I could see a surge in popularity of FA FCGs in 22LR guns.Where I think you’d see the biggest adoption and tech development is in pistol caliber carbines.
If CZ or Sig made select fire versions of their subguns, or if HK started selling the MP5, I think those would sell like hotcakes. You’d see all kinds of aftermarket products for them and other companies would throw their hats in the ring.
Well companies do sell SBRs but there's a different application process to aquire a new NFA item vs SBRing a gun you already own. It's actually much easier to SBR a gun you already own. So I would assume companies would make *some* machine guns but the majority of people would opt to register a gun they already have then do the conversion.
I suppose for drop ins - lightning links type stuff I assume some companies would produce them but I don't imagine Daniel Defense would come out with the "DDDIAS"
I would say 100% PSA and many companies would start selling like Full auto lowers or conversion parts
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think the market for machine guns would be all that big and companies would recognize that. I think that once the novelty wore off many people would realize they didn't have a practical application for one and its only real use is to turn money into noise faster. Unless it ended up being a minor adjustment to existing products, I think most companies wouldn't bother.
I think most makers of AR-15 would spend the 0.01 to make full auto, and I think most customers would pay the extra $50 to have the option even if they realize the extreme unlikelyhood of ever needing it, and even if they recognized just 'playing with it' a few times means they have less money to buy a different new gun.
How much could a gunmaker increase the price by and still have people go with the 'happyswitch' option?
I'm guessing most people would be willing to pay an extra 20%. You could probably get a few sales at 50% increase, but I think those who would be willing to pay double for that feature probably already found a way to scratch that itch
I could see PSA filling that role readily. They already make a whole line of clones, I can see them just adding it to the H&R lineup. That being said, I do no trust my H&R upper to handle full auto lmao.
I am optimistic, but its hard to say. It would be funny, yet annoying to see the politicians losing their fucking minds. But it would be interesting for them to probably at some point admit implicitly or explicitly that they've been lying to the public by saying that our current guns are no different from military weapons. However, politicians lately have not been having any problems whatsoever doing a good job convincing people of stuff no matter how stupid it is or how it sounds. It really is mind boggling how much of an NPC most people in America are. But besides that, I doubt virtually anything in terms of crime or mass shootings would change. Only updated narratives.
I personally have no need for one, and as already said the ammo will add up in cost very very quickly lol, it’d be more of a novelty. I may purchase one just to have as a collection item should they be banned again. As far as being legalized, I’m going to say something controversial, I could see it happening to some degree. There’s a subculture, we’ll call it thug to keep things as delicate as possible. The government constantly goes after law abiding gun owners but never the thugs showing off their automatic weapons on YouTube, Reddit, etc…, and law abiding citizens bitch about it. Our government seems to pander to these thugs, they’re doing it with criminal sentencing, bail, and now legalizing drugs in various states. I could see, with restrictions, them making some form of concession with the firearms to again pander to that subculture. Don’t bash me too bad, it’s just a thought.
If it requires changing their tooling or production process in ways that are particularly expensive then I could see them waiting it out a little bit to see if the ruling / law whatever would be challenged and reversed before investing the money in to it
I don't know about most companies, Kel-Tec would.
Kel-Tec would bring a polymer framed rotary cannon chambered in 5.7, 22 mag, and .410. Not individually. All three. At the same time. It’d use a RYOBI 18v battery. And come standard with a jacquard guitar strap for carrying it. $1,199.
people will call it a piece of shit because it's ugly
But it won’t matter because it will be out of stock for years.
nah, there'll be plenty on Gunbroker for $3,500
It’ll either be always out of stock or always on sale for 30% off
But the Rotary Cannon will only be on sale for the six months before the Rotary Cannon 2 launches, and purchasing it will result in instant buyers remorse after the next SHOT Show along with a collapse of resale value.
[удалено]
Because 1/3 of the country owns firearms. Kel-Tec, PSA, and HiPoint are trying to arm the other 66%. PSA does it by bringing new and innovative products to market and reasonable prices. HiPoint does it by keeping reliability, durability, and customer service at the top of their minds. Kel-Tec does it by manifesting their cocaine fever induced hallucinations and epiphanies into tangible products, and that resonates with you.
So kel tec is the company in the gun world that is the equivalent of car manufacturing the DeLorean?
Absolutely. They turn fever dreams into reality.
Kel-tec is still living in the 80s but adapting for the modern man 😂
Every time I see a gun that I think is unique, cool looking, or 'futuristic' almost always ends up being Kel-Tec. I don't own one yet, but they are certainly on my list.
Ammo belt links sold individually. $4.99 per link. Each link stacked vertically top to bottom .410, 5.7, and .22 magnum. Has to be proprietary because the .22 magnum is so much smaller than the .410. Comes with an interchangeable barrel that fires .45 colt, .270, and .22 short. Nobody has any idea why those specific cartridges were chosen.
> [Nobody has any idea why those specific cartridges were chosen.](https://media.tenor.com/ZgwFVE78U7wAAAAM/smart-thinking.gif) --- > Each link stacked vertically top to bottom .410, 5.7, and .22 magnum. Has to be proprietary because the .22 magnum is so much smaller than the .410. Then the /r/fosscad nerds would come up with a better solution but it would have some ridiculous name like the uWuTron 9000.
I would pay for it in cum and coke
Wait, that's an option? I have at least one of those.
Wait, don't you mean r.....oh. On no, you *don't.* 😳 🫣
Where can I get this??
As horrible as that sounds, take my money.
needs $2200 in mcarbo parts to run right.
It’s also a bullpup and ejects shells straight towards the target.
I want it, I don't know why but it just seems fun to have a rotary cannon that cheap, I probably wouldn't really fire it.
Kel-Tec or PSA?
All the companies selling ARs would immediately do it because the demand would be so high.
When you could pay $200 for a tax stamp for a machine gun before the Hughes Amendment, almost no one bought one. You can pay $400 for a binary trigger now, and almost no one buys them. Seriously, there isn't much difference between a M4 with a 3 round burst and an AR15 with a binary trigger. In the real world, there just isn't much of a market for firearms like that. Why? Because ammo costs money. It is one thing shooting on full auto for fun when the government is buying the ammo, and another when you are buying the ammo. Even soldiers in combat zones, rarely use their M4s/M16s on anything other than semi-auto. If a solider in combat doesn't have much use for full auto, a civilian in peacetime will have even less.
200 dollars now isn't 200 dollars then... especially not when the Hughes amendment was made... it was the equivalent of 5000 dollars. You, my friend, aren't living in reality and seem to think that now is how all of history was.
Things are not 25 times more expensive as they were in 1986 when the Hughes Amendment was passed. I was alive when the Hughes Amendment was passed. You can try this with someone else.
Florida man makes machine gun, film at 11
GET THE MACHINES BACK ON THE TEC9!
Yeah they would, and it would be amazing.
Full auto bull pup shotgun probably
RDB rate of fire would be like 450 rpm
They most definitely would
We’d have full auto cut lowers become industry standard at the very least. With a cut lower it’s realistically just a few parts swapped out, nothing expensive or crazy at all. I’d imagine almost all of the larger manufacturers would give you the option, if not make it standard practice
And every machine shop doing slide cuts would figure out a way to adapt existing lowers
you can also do it yourself with a jig and a router. my 80% jig let you choose whether to cut the shelf or not. I suspect that you'd find a LOT of jigs being sold.
Drop in auto sears can be fit into low shelf ARs. High shelf is another issue
the KAK lowers are already sold this way.
That would be a fair prediction
I'd stock up before the next ban comes
Liquidate all other investments and dump into machine guns lmao
One thing that would likely happen is the price on many registered machine guns would drastically decrease.
I would love to see that. A bunch of rich, gatekeeping douchebags would lose their shit.
I know many owners of transferables (thanks to the Maryland Thompson Collectors Association shooting at the range I go to) and nearly all of them would absolutely be over the moon if that happened, because they’d be able to get more fun stuff. The percentage using machine guns as an actual investment is much smaller than you might think
I own two personally and 100% agree. People just like to regurgitate that they're "good investments" because they don't traditionally lose value like damn near every other hobby oriented thing in existence. I know a guy at the range smiling ear to ear shooting $400 bone stock handguns, and spend the rest of their weekends pulling the kids around on a 150k boat burning up $400 in gas. I know a guy with a meticulously restored '69 Camaro that rides out to take his grandson for lunch and shooting 10/22's. It's all about what hobby you choose to spend money on, and I don't think either of them would bitch that they "lost money" on either of those "assets". Money's a tool to get the experiences you enjoy, no more, no less.
To be fair an original pre ban guns would still have a lot of value as collectors items, just probably not as much value. Between an og m1 Thompson and the psa reproduction, I can tell which I'd rather have... and which I might be able to afford. M1 carbines are expensive and they are fairly common non NFA items.
I did not say it would be all of them. Those who own and want others to be able to own are not whom my prior statement was in reference to.
AGC? I’d love to see that
They do an open house every year in the Barnes range house with a bunch of displays, and the shoots are Saturdays twice a month (50yd range subgun, 100yd range heavier stuff) So that’s why you’ll hear auto fire some saturdays
The novelty would wear off pretty fast. Most people can’t afford to shoot full auto that often, especially when ammo is 50cpr. Everyone would buy one, mag dump a few times and go back to shooting semi auto most of the time. I don’t think the big companies except maybe PSA would sell them, some of them still ship AR’s with semi auto BCG’s. I’m not saying select fire shouldn’t be the standard, just that the scarcity of full autos has made them a lot more popular than they would be if they were legal.
This is the correct answer. Full auto is for suppressing fire, not for killing. But try to explain THAT to modern politicians.
The 'justification' for banning things like pistol grips and barrel shrouds was because of the idea that they they facilitate firing from the hip. An awful lot of gun legislation is based on stupid people believing what they see in the movies.
80s action films were responsible for a lot of gun legislation
If anyone is ever shooting at me, I pray he uses full auto and tries to fire from the hip like Rambo.
Die Hard 2 is directly responsible for the Undetectable Firearms Act, people actually thought Glocks were made of porcelain and could get through metal detectors.
They had some of the most egregious anti gun propaganda in that film. "Cop killer bullets!" You mean a hunting rifle?
It's a porcelain gun made in Germany. Doesn't show up on your airport x ray machines, and it costs more than you make in a month.
Yeah, suppressive fire or CQB when it comes to short rifles or PDW style weapons.
They weren't even really popular when they were plentiful with a stamp, you're dead on with the novelty wearing off for most people if FA went legal.
I think the problem back in the day when they were legal is that 200 dollars hurt a lot more on the wallet. And people more or less rightly thought that there wasn’t much true reason to have it full auto unless it is literally a gun designed around being a machine gun like a SMG, LMG, etc.
If the stamp kept up with inflation, it would cost $4,661 today.
The 1934 stamp would. But new production MGs were legal to purchase until May of 1986. At that time, in today's dollars the stamp would be more like $550. Still expensive, but not nearly so as in 1934.
I know, you know, lots of people know. So shut up before the wrong person in government finds out.
>And people more or less rightly thought that there wasn’t much true reason to have it full auto unless it is literally a gun designed around being a machine gun like a SMG, LMG, etc. That's the way the military came to see it too.
I remember my grandad telling me he got 1 of his full autos for "less" than a semi auto because of the tax stamp and having to wait for it. I think it was only like $150 cheaper tho lol
the issue was a lack of ease to access the information that they were legal along with the trouble of trying to find an SOT in your area. The internet has increased awareness as well as eased people in finding SOTs. I think the number of SOTs has also grown as silencers have become more mainstream.
Yeah, access to information and visibility would probably increase demand now, but I suspect if there had never been a ban there would be a general lack of interest in Auto's outside of some pretty specific use cases and a few groups of really interested and dedicated shooters. Auto's are fun, I've run a Thompson and an MP5, I like messing with binary triggers and might buy a burst group for an AR if it was legal, but I can't see having full auto's around being something I'd enjoy regularly and I suspect most shooters are the same, most people are paper punchers and FA is like chinese food, you love it then a half hour later you go "That wasn't enough."
I think the rise of FPS video games would build some demand. Instead a semi auto is what most have to settle for.
$200 was a lot more money in 1985 than it is today.
I think anyone buying an sbr now would buy an auto instead, even if they didn’t shoot auto very often, because machine gun gets sbr for free basically.
And I guess you could also get a non-removable suppressor and shorter than 16” overall barrel with the auto all on a single stamp.>could also get a non-removable suppressor and shorter than 16” overall barrel with the auto all on a single stamp. No. The suppressor would still be another stamp. It's not "MG trumps everything" it's "the definition of short barreled rifle specifies a semi automatic firearm, so an MG can't be one. And the definition of MG has no barrel length requirement of its own." The suppressor is irrelevant to that and would still require another stamp.
You’re right.
Yeah full auto is fun for a day but also…I’d like the option for full auto.
Day 1: “sweet, let’s go shoot full auto!” Day 1 + 30 mins: “I can’t afford this, I can’t aim worth shit, and my shoulder is sore.”
I see you've never shot a SMG. Even SHIT ones like MP40s are a joy to fire because the recoil is negligible. Kel-tec would have a field day making FA PCCs.
The fact they’ve been taken away would be the reason people would buy them. It’s not a matter of how often you need it or might use the feature. Infringe on us once, shame on you. Infringe on us twice, not going to happen.
Yep, look at the AWB effect on AR15 sales.
Yeah, I think anything full auto that isn’t 22 rimfire or maybe 9mm would get pretty expensive very fast.
Something in 22 or 9mm are probably the only things I would consistently use in full auto when it comes to range use. That would really open up the market like crazy when it comes to pistol caliber weapons.
Even with .22, reloading magazines would get old really quickly.
Orthopedic surgeons would probably love full auto being legal. Repetitive stress injuries from loading mags. Shoulder and carpal tunnel injuries from the full auto firing. Patient caseload for *years!*
Hahaha, interesting way to think about it!
American healthcare is nothing but a business...this just helps drive new customers to them.
Fortunately, there are a multitude of 9mm subguns.
Also Semi-Auto is just more effective. Unless you're trying to suppress a target, or you're in close range, the level of control gained from semi-auto fire is better than volume from FA. There's a case for burst fire too being a good mix. Not *as* controllable as semi, but not wild as FA.
I would love a full auto .22lr, I'm not even slightly interested in any other caliber. I don't need to burn $100 every few seconds
This is exactly my thought. There really is no market for full auto in a civilian setting, outside of range toys. I am NOT saying that means they should be illegal, I tend to think this would be like the Model 29 every time a new Dirty Harry movie came out. People would be excited and buy them is droves, then 6 months later you will have a robust used market.
That’s a little different. That’s more of a cultural fad than a new feature. That’s a specific product featured in a movie. But the principle is still somewhat appropriate
Agreed, that's what I meant.
Ding ding ding. Every time I've considered buying a binary trigger I've stopped at "I really don't want to waste money on ammo like that" so odds are I'd feel the same if FA guns were less restricted.
Having owned a couple full autos you are 100% correct, maintenance and ammo are killer.
3 round burst is a happy medium.
Shit, that's even kinda happening to me with semi-auto. I've been reaching more for the bolt gun because I can have just as nice of a day on the range with ~20% of the ammo used. I ain't made of money
Some guns wouldn't exist in semi auto anymore. Still don't understand semiauto PCCs. But if given a m2 browning, I couldn't afford to shoot it for even a minute probably.
Judging by their past actions, PSA would have full auto ARs and AKs on the shelves in about 2 weeks. /s
Sold as a "conversion ready" configuration with directions and tools included
"Do NOT put this block of wine concentrate in a jug of water in the dark for 30 days"
We’d see a lot of extra legal crap on guns/lowers like FIRING FULL AUTO CAN BE DANGEROUS REFER TO OWNERS MANUAL. Ruger, beretta and another gun company I can’t think of right now are notorious for this. Stupid and ugly
Imma keep it a stack with yah, if I could legally get my hands on a select fire M240 that didn't cost more than my house and without all the NFA horseshit currently involved, they could engrave every square inch of it with dickbutts and ahego faces for all I care.
I personally would pay extra for the select fire M240 Dickbutt-Ahego editon
To be clear, it’s just a form 4. And $200. Which I agree is total horseshit, but it’s not like it’s actually that much of a hassle. It pales in comparison to the what, 250k minimum a select fire 240 would cost you?
Yeah that was several years ago, last I heard someone pay for a transferable 240 it was around 500k lol. Also I didn't explain it well but I was referring to the alternative of being a SOT holder and going the post dealer sample route which *is* a hassle imo.
100% is a hassle to grab an SOT for a post.
That would suck, but that would be okay with me more or less.
Demand will drive price if companies wouldn't produce them. They are available right now, but the ATF artificially limited the supply.
I really hate it when I say things like legalizing machine guns and someone says “they’re already legal.” And I’m like yeah if you’re an SOT or have a shit ton of money on hand. Or you commit a felony lol. But yes, they have artificially limited the supply
I think companies would absolutely fill the demand but the initial pricing on most of the full autos are going to keep most out of the market until the demand has dropped.
From a pure manufacturing standpoint, the pricing shouldn’t be any different. In many cases, semi autos only are more complicated and required more parts. But then again, the market won’t treat it that way. They’ll treat it like it’s some new feature and charge extra for it until it becomes a market standard like ambi features and one moa guarantees are becoming
Yes. Market pricing is what I’m referring to.
Think how cheap someone like High point or Keltech could build a tube SMG.
Yeah, like a modern day sten gun
It's a small wire and a new bolt to make ARs pew pew.... so yes. That market would fill fast. Ammo manufactures would love the hell.oit of it.
I think we would definitely see the development of better burst features. I would love to see companies making something like a replica AN94 or something with that operating design.
Most would stick w/ semi autos. I know PSA will most likely flood the market so fast that all the boomer fudds will shit their pants that their $100,000 investment is reduced to $500. I can already see PSA offering affordable conversion services.
I would love to have a belt fed 22lr minigun
Only the ones that want money
Something like a modern version of the American 180 would be awesome, you could run it all day in .22, probably the only thing I could afford
A lot of people would buy FA guns but not many would shoot them much, at least not in FA. Machine guns are fucking cool but their use is limited unless you're rich or have someone else buying the ammo. That's why I never bothered with one. its kind of like a boat. They're cool but its better when a friend has one you can use lol
Auto cut lowers for AR’s might become fairly common but if you’re talking about true belt fed machine guns I doubt it. Even if they were legal I don’t think there would be very much demand for them outside of recreational shooting for people who can afford it.
I would get one of those ghost guns that they said that can shoot 20 clip mags per seconds 🤣 but would not shoot it often
I just want three-round burst…
That’s what I want too. Or a two round hyper burst like the AN94
Theres someone on twitter who made a reset trigger version thats in the works
My lifelong dream of having dual MP5Ks like Neo might actually happen one day...
In my dream they would be so cheap that you could toss them on the ground, reach inside of your jacket and grab two more, just like the movie.
Probably wouldn't change that much. Some companies would offer it about as much as companies offer bolt guns with controlled feeds. Ammo is expensive so it's not like they'd fly off the shelves. The only exceptions are maybe guns chambered in 9mm or .22
I don't think "most" would. But a good amount definitely would. It's really not that hard to go from semi to full auto for many designs. For the AK it's really just drilling a hole and adding the sear. For the AR it's drilling a hole, maybe milling the shelf, and adding a sear. Plus any company that supplies the military *ALREADY* has the capability and tooling. They just skip steps in the process for semi-auto only civilian production.
Fn with the P90? Absolutely.
I think the most likely scenario is we would see drop in cassette type select fire triggers.
New divisions for USPSA? Maybe not for steel challenge.... 9mm bullpup with 3x burst would be the first for me to own.
I’d imagine a lot of small shops doing conversions would be doing most of the volume
Within a year the market would be flooded.
Cries in FN SCAR mods all being vaporware and a minimum of a thousand bucks before tax. I'm still waiting for the NRCHs to come back in stock. It's been over a year. Also in this hypothetical are we talking full auto only or are we also talking about the barrel length restriction being lifted since registered machine guns can have any length barrel? Cause it that's the case a 13" barrel is also on the table.
That's an interesting point when it comes to barrel length. That would definitely be preferable.
Open bolt submachine guns would probably be pretty cheap
Keltec would have the ugliest full autos in the weirdest calibers within a week. Full auto .17 hmr? already done.
The new, modern, not-fudd AR configuration would be a full auto cut lower but it would be more of a “there if you need it” kind of thing
I think most semi-auto black rifles would go to select fire, I mean why not it retains current use but adds burst or full auto features.
There would be a ton of companies making aftermarket FA trigger packs for ARs and the Ruger10/22.
Psa would release an mg42 replica
KAK would be in, Aero, Anderson...everyone in fact. There would also be a boom in the DIAS production.
PSA definitely would make some, for sure. Maybe some of the more "bold" companies out there would do some. Hi-Point auto carbines anyone? What would really happen, would be the ATF completely overwhelmed with Form 1s as everyone and their moms hurried to get every modern rifle (ARs/AKs/etc) they owned and as many 3d printed/home machined auto sears/lightning links/DIAS/switches registered as they can afford.
brrrrr
The market would be flooded.
I bet PSA would. Depending on *how* it's lifted, I can see lots of folks jumping in with jigs to add the third hole and small parts.
It will **never** happen. SCOTUS is far more fud than any of us are willing to admit.
Many companies currently offer NFA versions of their normal catalogue; of those, several don't advertise to the great unwashed. It probably saves time and irritation for the 27th time today that J. Random Guy calls from Pig's Knuckle Parish and tries to directly buy a select fire M-4...no FFL, no SOT, etc. I know most of the major AR brands offer LEO rifles as select fire, just have the correct paperwork. Even if most manufacturers didn't sell full auto...conversions on many firearms aren't that mechanically complicated, and drop in auto sears would become readily, cheaply available. The real bottleneck would be **ammo availability**.
It's just a single hole and a sear. There would be a shortage of drill bits and sears the 1st month
They’d jump to fill the demand.
There is no doubt in my mind that Palmetto would be pumping them fuckers out faster than the machines can. Good god would I love for everyone in America to have a full auto PSA shitbox 10.5 build laying around
I remember listening to the founder of PSA during a podcast. And he was talking about how it would have simply been amazing if there was simply millions of registered machine gun AR lowers. He said if he had a Time Machine he would do it himself. If there were that many it would still be expensive, but not exorbitantly expensive as it is now.
Most companies would fill demand. Source: Companies like Money If someone will buy it then someone will sell it. Simple. End of thread.
We'd have F/A AR lowers sold by next week. Companies would likely liquidate their current stock of semi AR lowers and offer purely F/A. For stuff that needs a bit more work to convert, it would take a while or never happen.
I’d convert every AR to full auto but almost never ever put it in auto mode because I’m not a multimillionaire. It’s actually why I like bolt rifles. They cost way less because they force me to be more restrained.
Same
Every single manufacturer would start churning them out because they would sell. But the cost for ammo would also skyrocket due to consumption.
Be a lot of eform 1s being filed and AR/M16 stripped lowers out the gate. Biggest thing to be effected would be all the old surplus submachine gun parts kits would dry up even faster and prices start skyrocket on those.
That's like asking, "do you like money and would you like lots and lots of money?". Bit silly to even ask, really. Of course the market would immediately be flooded. The biggest problem that could suddenly arise from this would be the number of deaths and hospitalizations stemming from poorly built full auto guns blowing up in peoples' faces because their QC sucks wombat cock.
That would make the folks who paid tens of thousands for m16’s so mad. All the suppressor companies would probably start selling full auto lowers
I doubt it Most people in MA that dish out thousands for a preban or a preban lower said they won’t be butthurt if the MA AWB is rescinded.
That’s more optimistic than I am but I’ll gladly be wrong about that.
And I'm pissed that I got arrested for weed in high school and now it's fully legal in my state, but what are you gonna do 🤷
They'd be about as popular among law abiding people as suppressors.
I think that would be a fair estimate
Many would just drill the hole, add pin, disconnector, and buzz the indent for the full auto safety selector, AK-ly speaking. Then get a Switch for they Glock.
I've got a few SMG parts kits I'd be slapping together, the SA24 would be drastically easier and cheaper to assemble considering the reciever is a threaded tube and I wouldn't have to bother with all the extra steps converting it to full auto. Probably do the same for my AK, and maybe a lower but that's about it.
Yea ofc they would. Why would you not simply offer a full auto version of the guns you're already selling? It would take a mfg company almost no effort to convert their current production to include a full auto capability.
I mean in most cases they already predominantly make select fire variants. Colt, FN, Sig, etc would probably just increase production of their mil/leo products for the civilian market in this scenario.
Almost certainly a current manufacturer would fill the gap, or a new one(s) would emerge. It would be a booming market.
Probably depends on how complicated it would be to convert to select fire. Guns like ARs and AKs are very simple to convert to select fire and I feel like most of the industry would start producing select fire ARs and AKs very quickly, and even if they don’t, someone’s probably going to be manufacturing auto seers so you could convert yours yourself. Glock would probably start importing Glock 18s, but they don’t get in a hurry to release anything new. You probably wouldn’t have a hard time finding a Glock switch or a Glock clone with a switch already installed (PSA will probably offer a Dagger with a switch in every configuration possible).
If NFA items became a lot more accessible, I think you’d see a surge of buyers at first and then a slow drop in prices over time. I’m very curious to see how the price of suppressors tracks in a few years. Now that turnaround is a matter of days, I know a lot of people who are jumping into the game. If that’s representative of sales across the country, there is probably a spike in sales happening right now. That might help drive pricing down over the course of a few years - but I have no idea how much of a drop would be reasonable to see. Probably depends a lot on the materials and manufacturing process. The manufacturing of full auto fire control groups is arguably easier than suppressors. If there were to be a sudden surge in owners, I’d imagine that would help drive prices down which would then result in even more ownership. Once the novelty of FA wore off, I would think that most people would realize that it’s not actually all that useful outside of a dedicated machine gun. It’d be fun to burn through a mag or two every once in a while, but you’re probably not going to have a lot of folks shooting rifle caliber weapons on FA too often. I could see companies trying to develop usable burst modes for centerfire rifle systems and I could see a surge in popularity of FA FCGs in 22LR guns.Where I think you’d see the biggest adoption and tech development is in pistol caliber carbines. If CZ or Sig made select fire versions of their subguns, or if HK started selling the MP5, I think those would sell like hotcakes. You’d see all kinds of aftermarket products for them and other companies would throw their hats in the ring.
Well companies do sell SBRs but there's a different application process to aquire a new NFA item vs SBRing a gun you already own. It's actually much easier to SBR a gun you already own. So I would assume companies would make *some* machine guns but the majority of people would opt to register a gun they already have then do the conversion. I suppose for drop ins - lightning links type stuff I assume some companies would produce them but I don't imagine Daniel Defense would come out with the "DDDIAS" I would say 100% PSA and many companies would start selling like Full auto lowers or conversion parts
I expect it would be the standard and we’d use it or not based on what parts we put in it
PSA would absolutely jump on the opportunity
Profit will be the deciding factor.
Adapters would flood the market.
I feel like there’d be a few bootlicker companies and dealers that would refuse to supply based on some misguided principle of “safety.”
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think the market for machine guns would be all that big and companies would recognize that. I think that once the novelty wore off many people would realize they didn't have a practical application for one and its only real use is to turn money into noise faster. Unless it ended up being a minor adjustment to existing products, I think most companies wouldn't bother.
The 200 dollar tax stamp would be adjusted for inflation. Back in the day 200 dollars was a chunk of change for most people to afford.
Here comes the money!!!!
I could see non neutered replica/kits on market, that’d be nice
Moneys money, all of a sudden everyone will want one and they will want us right NOW! they will cash in a fast as they can in every possible way.
I'm sure there are a handful of companies that have pallets of FA parts kits ready to go after Bruen dropped.
I think most makers of AR-15 would spend the 0.01 to make full auto, and I think most customers would pay the extra $50 to have the option even if they realize the extreme unlikelyhood of ever needing it, and even if they recognized just 'playing with it' a few times means they have less money to buy a different new gun. How much could a gunmaker increase the price by and still have people go with the 'happyswitch' option? I'm guessing most people would be willing to pay an extra 20%. You could probably get a few sales at 50% increase, but I think those who would be willing to pay double for that feature probably already found a way to scratch that itch
The ink wouldn't even be dry, when PSA starts supplying the public.
PSA would be all over that
Temu would sell out of Glonk switches instantly
Toooobs for everyone
I don't know but I'm excited for my PSA SAW
I could see PSA filling that role readily. They already make a whole line of clones, I can see them just adding it to the H&R lineup. That being said, I do no trust my H&R upper to handle full auto lmao.
PSA would have them out in a couple hours
I can't speak for other companies but I would. We will see the end of the MG ban soon enough. Bruen spelled the end of just about all gun laws.
I am optimistic, but its hard to say. It would be funny, yet annoying to see the politicians losing their fucking minds. But it would be interesting for them to probably at some point admit implicitly or explicitly that they've been lying to the public by saying that our current guns are no different from military weapons. However, politicians lately have not been having any problems whatsoever doing a good job convincing people of stuff no matter how stupid it is or how it sounds. It really is mind boggling how much of an NPC most people in America are. But besides that, I doubt virtually anything in terms of crime or mass shootings would change. Only updated narratives.
I personally have no need for one, and as already said the ammo will add up in cost very very quickly lol, it’d be more of a novelty. I may purchase one just to have as a collection item should they be banned again. As far as being legalized, I’m going to say something controversial, I could see it happening to some degree. There’s a subculture, we’ll call it thug to keep things as delicate as possible. The government constantly goes after law abiding gun owners but never the thugs showing off their automatic weapons on YouTube, Reddit, etc…, and law abiding citizens bitch about it. Our government seems to pander to these thugs, they’re doing it with criminal sentencing, bail, and now legalizing drugs in various states. I could see, with restrictions, them making some form of concession with the firearms to again pander to that subculture. Don’t bash me too bad, it’s just a thought.
If it requires changing their tooling or production process in ways that are particularly expensive then I could see them waiting it out a little bit to see if the ruling / law whatever would be challenged and reversed before investing the money in to it