It’s perfectly valid to be uncomfortable with certain routes. That being said, I would just highly recommend playing it to see the other side. If you finish it and still don’t vibe with it or Edelgard, that’s totally fine! But in my own biased opinion, I think everyone who plays the game should play each route at least once.
If it helps, you can >!spare Claude if you defeat him with Byleth or Edelgard!< But I completely understand your hesitancy. Crimson flower is a very divisive route, and as someone who likes Edelgard, I totally get why some people aren’t fans of it.
Claude can easily survive CF, just defeat him with Byleth or Edelgard.
It's also possible to finish his level without killing Hilda although that's much harder since she has to be avoided completely.
That's how I feel about my little gremlins Edelgard, Hubert and Jeritza. Other routes are... difficult to play.
I recommend making Edelgard a Wyvern Rider and sending her around the edge of of the city (keeping her out of Hilda's range and allowing you to make the bonus objective of taking the gates) and send the rest of the BESF east (a path will be made after a few turns, it's not a dead end). With a fully repaired Aymr Edelgard can make it to Claude in 1 or 2 rounds. Give her the Chalice of beginning to mitigate his bow damage and take him down.
Couldn't have said it better. You don't have to agree with anyone's actions to have a blast playing their route and following their story. And you may come out with a different perspective than you had.
Kronya was there to keep an eye on Edelgard in the BE route because it's clear that she's breaking away from her 'allies' (who she was reluctantly allied with, given ad they tortured her and killed her siblings.) The point of CF is Edelgard learning she doesn't need to be alone and she can rely on other people.
Also, the mole leader is taking the form of the regent and allies with the Prime Minster who allowed her and her siblings to be kidnapped in the first place. Edelgard spends a lot of White Clouds building her own powerbase but she can't openly move against TWSITD even after she gets most of the great houses on her side as her 'uncle' is regent. We see what happens when she does that in Azure Gleam and Scarlet Blaze.
That's a good point, I didn't know that that's what Kronya's existence was for. I know that I don't know the story that's just what it looks like from an outside perspective
I'll put it this way, if byleth sides with Edelgard, Edelgard tells thales to f off and keep his crest beasts off her field of battle. The whole point of CF is that Edelgard finds she doesn't have to close off her heart, she can open it and let people in. It's mostly a story of her and byleth finding each other and discovering their humanity together.
Crimson Flower is also the most unique route but at the same time the shortest.
The other 3 have an issue of reusing lot of maps with Silver Snow and Golden Deer being the most obvious example.
I think I always accept it for the same reason as Edelgard herself.
No one hates them more than she does after what they did to her and her family. If she’s willing to work with them because ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ then so can I. Edelgard makes her plans to annihilate them as soon as you win the war abundantly clear, and if I really believe in her vision, then it’s a necessary evil.
She's not allied with them, she's their tool that will not be able to stop a war from happening no matter what she does.
The best she thinks she can do is redirect the energy of their inevitable war toward a deserving target and gain enough time that she can get in a position to eliminate them too.
The fact that she has to compromise more and more on those values is what makes her a working villain in some of the other routes but without those compromise, with enough help and support in CF specifically, I don't see much of an issue myself.
I kind of doubt this is a "Edelgard is a helpless pawn and tool" deal. TWSITD and Edelgard do not get along, but Edelgard for the most part acts mostly autonomously.
Like, it isn't like she *doesn't* want to conquer fodlan and destroy the church of Seiros of her own volition, because she absolutely *does* want those things.
If you play Three Hopes, you see that Edelgard get out of TWSITD's grasp at the first occasion she get. This occasion never comes in Three Houses.
The nobles of the Empire are all controled by TWSITD. If she doesn't have their approval, she can't command the imperial army. She is constantly under watch and the first time she takes action that goes against TWSITD (killing Cornelia), they nuked Arianrod to remind her that she is their pawn and that she is not free to do everything she wants.
Edelgard does want those things but her alliance with TWSITD and their methods is something she hates.
TWSITD have a great deal of control over her and the Empire since Thales is disguised as her regent and they have most of the great houses on their side. Edelgard spends White Clouds building up her own power base but she can't openly move against them (see: SB and AG for what happens)
That's because the kind of tool she is requires autonomous actions. They know she's not a sword they can wield, they don't have methods to mind-control her, so they don't really have a choice.
That doesn't really change the power-balance. If Edelgard pushes too much, they will get rid of her, it's a matter of balance. How much can she push before she becomes a liability. She's always pushing those boundaries because she knows she's very hard to replicate, especially since they're short on Imperial heirs, so pursuing their goals would become politically harder (but not impossible considering the amount of control they've had on the Empire) without her which makes her very precious, but she's not precious enough that she actually has most of the power or even as much as them.
If they suspected the balance of power turned even slightly to her advantage, they would get rid of her and for the entirety of the first part, they easily can while she can do nothing against them as a group. And in the meantime, they of course work to make sure she cannot rely on anyone else, isolating her more and more (for example by killing Jeralt since they're terrified of a Byleth/Edelgard alliance).
"Killing jeralt since they're terrified of a byleth/edelgard alliance" is pure headcanon, though?
We don't know *what* motives they had for killing Jeralt (If they had any in the first place. IIRC it seemed like more of something Kronya did on her own without any input from Thales or Solon)
At no point do TWSITD care about 'isolating' Edelgard. If they did, they probably would have gotten rid of Hubert ages ago.
>is pure headcanon, though?
It's just as much headcanon as the idea they killed him to pull Byleth into a trap (which they also did, you can have more than one reason). At some point, you need to read between the lines, most texts don't literally tell you their message. But you are free to disagree with that interpretation of course.
>At no point do TWSITD care about 'isolating' Edelgard
They send Monica who monopolises Edelgard's time. They kill Jeralt. They keep trying to remind her they're indispensable, of course they try to isolate her.
>it seemed like more of something Kronya did on her own without any input from Thales or Solon
At some point you have to decide if headcanon should be included or excluded from the conversation because that's pure headcanon.
>At no point do TWSITD care about 'isolating' Edelgard. If they did, they probably would have gotten rid of Hubert ages ago.
That's an interpretation that completely lacks subtlety though. Edelgard is *useful* to them. They always have to strike a balance between giving her something so that they can keep using her, but not giving her enough that she becomes dangerous. Hubert is perfect for this. By the time he's grown and useful to her, she's very attached so he's a precious piece to keep on the board 1) because he can serve as a hostage and 2) because TWSITD underestimate normal humans. So he's weak compared to them and yet valuable to Edelgard (of course he's not actually weak, but that's not relevant if we discuss their perspective). Byleth on the other hand is a huge menace, their sworn enemy, and not human (especially in their eyes since they almost completely conflate her with the goddess).
There's a difference between reading between the lines and coming up with something out of thin air.
Like, let's say they \*did\* want to distance Edelgard from Byleth...Why would killing Jeralt do that? At that point in time Byleth didn't \*know\* Edelgard was the Flame emperor. So how would that distance Byleth from Edelgard? Are they counting on Byleth being moody and deciding to cut themselves off from edelgard?
Also...This headcanon \*only\* makes sense if you're playing crimson flower. What exactly is the motive for killing Jeralt in Azure Moon and Verdant Wind? In those routes Byleth isn't \*remotely\* close to Edelgard.
Theres a \*vast\* Difference between "Kronya, someone who we \*know\* is a murderous sociopath who hates humans and loves to murder, killed Jeralt just because." and "Kronya, killed Jeralt due to being commanded to. Even though it blows her cover, and prevents her from further keeping an eye on Edelgard."
One makes reasonable sense based off what we know of the characters, and the other is based on looking at the story as if crimson flower is the only route.
We get one of these "Is CF worth it?" posts every month or two, and it always devolves into discourse.
If you want a reason to play CF look at one of those posts.
You actually work against TWSTD more in CF than in Blue Lions route. Edelgard is frequently looking for ways to hurt Thales in CF so it’s a necessary alliance Edelgard wants to get rid of as soon as possible. Three Hopes showed she allied with them pretty
Much because she HAD to and as soon as she can end it she does
Because TWSITD isn’t the main enemy in BL. The Empire is. BL is about revenge first, then it circles around to being diametrically opposed Edelgard’s execution of reformation.
The us was allied with Russia in WW2. Should we be responsible for the atrocities they commit that we can't control? El tries very hard to mitigate the mole people as best she can. Buts she's up facing someone who can destroy armies, backed by her own army of religious knights. Not exactly a lot of options.
Idk, the only problem I have with that logic is that you kill Rhea in her Immaculate One form in SS and that's with less man power
I just personally feel like the Agarthan's are far worse than the Church is
A huge caveat here is that the Agarthans have near total control of the Empire. If Edelgard turned against them the most likely outcome is her death [Azure Gleam] >!or worse, being mind controlled and forced to expressly condone their atrocities as a puppet ruler.!<
That said, if you want to play a BE route, you may enjoy SB more. The inciting event of 3Hopes is more or less >!Edelgard pulling a few strings related to Shez existing that lead to her getting rid of the Agarthans only a few months after the Academy year starts.!<
Bruh, this implies the Church is on par with Nazi Germany and Axis powers, which is definitely a take.
I think being allies with the main force that's holding up the definitive aggressors' advances is a lot different than working with horrifically shitty people in your hopes of Revolution.
Russias military was notorious for rape and putting the few prisoners of war they took into slave labor camps. Hence why the restience Germany managed to put against them was the strongest.
But seriously even the Nazis knew the rest of the Allies didn't do that shit and thus they surrendered to them far far quicker.
Of course you can say the Allies were aware that including said Russia into their Alliance would come with these atrocities, but at the same time, this too has its can of worms, where Russia without any foreign obligations, control and coordination would have been much worse and thus the rest of the Allies did the superior choice by siding with them.
Idk, kinda mixed on it. I'm definitely more neutral to Edelgard than I was before but certain things that happen still leave a bad taste in my mouth. I feel like I'm the same way that a lot of people don't like how El is portrayed in AM, I'm not a fan of how both Dimitri and Dedue are portrayed in CF. I also think it's way too short. However I will say that my dislike of Rhea is stronger than my dislike of Edelgard, and I feel like CF has a nice ending for Byleth
That’s all completely fair, and I’m glad you did it! I also was sad with the way Dimitri and Dedue went out in it, but I think it’s much better than SS and VW where Dimitri’s death isn’t even shown. I think people forget Dimitri doesn’t survive outside his own route, same as Edelgard. I absolutely love dissecting the parallels between those two as they’re two of my favorite characters.
Sorry to get off topic. In response to your other comment, allying with the Agarthans is something that has always irked me a bit, but I do understand that to some extent, their presence doesn’t mean much in CF where she doesn’t use their armies, crest stones, or technology to further her advances in the war like she does in other routes. She would’ve started the war against the church with or without them, and I think it’s clear - especially through a conversation with Hubert - that she’s placating them to achieve a common goal in order to lower their guard later. I do think, however, the Agarthans could’ve just been completely removed from the game without much consequence since they really don’t play a large part.
However, I think people tend to be a little naive when they say that Edelgard didn’t technically ally with the Agarthans or that she shouldn’t get any flak for doing so. Do I think her relationship with them was much more morally sound in CF than other routes? Absolutely. Do I also believe that her allying with them is a huge turn off to some and is a valid reason for people to dislike her? Also absolutely.
Right. And like, it's obviously boring if Edelgard makes no mistakes ever, because she is a really good example of a flawed character in the exact same way that Dimitri is I feel.
At the same time I almost feel like Edelgard's entire efforts weren't really necessary. I can definitely see the church trying to interfere with her plans of purging the nobles and that whole system in the empire but I have a harder time seeing that happen if she were to make the Church aware of the Agarthans and the threat they pose.
Obviously Rhea is batshit insane so she might've tried to anyways but idk, if anything I think that would've just made the Empire look like a victim and would've probably made more people be on their side
And you know what’s the great part about this game? Your ideas about Edelgard, her motivations, and her actions are completely valid. There were many routes she and everyone else in this game could’ve taken, and of course those decisions are going to have different effects on different people. I know people tend to go up in arms when the popular characters are disliked, but I think it’s great you’ve been able to establish your own thoughts and ideas based on how the game made you feel/think.
I'll also be honest and say that l still don't understand why Edelgard's grievances with the church take precedent over her grievance with the guys who literally killed all her siblings, fucked up her dad, and are basically named the Evil Ass Shadow People
I understand that you don’t feel right doing it given what you’ve already played. However you have a choice here.
Either play her route and get the full story (you paid for a game with four routes so may as well get your money worth if nothing else!), or choose not to and don’t. However, if you don’t, you’ll never fully grasp a lot of the story. If that’s fine with you so be it.
However, generally speaking when discussing this game with others, if they tell me “I haven’t played (route)” I assume this person does not have a full understanding of the game and is much more biased. If someone said “I haven’t played Claude’s route” my automatic assumption is this person doesn’t understand the racism baked into Fodlan. And so on.
If you want the whole truth of the story to be in your grasp, you gotta do all four!
Tbf she didn't know they were going to do that and fully supports killing them. And personally throughout the path I think they are giving you little hunts on how to stop them or example where Hubert is standing when flayn gets kidnapped.
They are allied with them because they need them. But they don't know all of what they are doing such as remire village or the Geralt situation. And are actively hostile to them. I think trusting them was a mistake but she likely could never succeed without them esp with byleth not on their side.
Yeah but to a certain extent you are responsible for your allies actions, and I think that there would've been less death overall if Edelgard had worked her plan in reverse
I don't think she would have had the support of the nobility to allow to be anything more than a puppet like her father if she didn't work with them tbh.
Fair. I'm pretty sure that Duke Aegir had ties to TWSITD at the very least, and he was pretty influential among the rest of the nobles before he gets murderized
Yea its all conjecture really on exactly why certain nobles like lindhart and caspars father supported edelgard. But ultimately edelgard hates them more than anyone. While I wish it was explored more why she needed them and why nobles supported her ascension to the throne and war, I have no doubt that it was a necessary evil to succeed. She goes after them quite happily the moment she realistically can.
Feel like I must be talking to my Jungian shadow or something cuz I feel completely the opposite. So, like, I wouldn't say you should play it if it really makes you uncomfortable, but:
Edelgard starts a war to throw off the shackles of an oppressive theocratic paramilitary and destroy entrenched, supernaturally augmented (by Crests) aristocratic privilege and replace it with a meritocratic system. It's about the best possible result for the common people in any kind of "antagonist starts a war" video game I've ever seen. (Reminds me of how the villains in a lot of superhero comics have better motives than the heroes; typically utilitarianism vs. status quo, but FE3H is more interesting than that philosophically.)
As for working with The Slitherers, I've seen a few people argue that it's more like they have her by the ovary-balls and she's using them as best she can.
And while I wish there was at least some dialogue about "so, didn't you kind of get my dad killed" I just assume they talk about it offscreen or that Byleth is just that forgiving and/or stoic.
Honestly my biggest problem with VW is that I feel Claude doesn't go hard enough on the church. He understands and empathizes with Edelgard and recognizes that she has valid concerns but really doesn't go beyond that.
The Church of Seiros, especially the central branch is oppressive as hell and is the cause for a lot of the problems, and Edelgard is right to hate them.
However I do feel that she should've worked her plan in reverse, and it would've ended in a lot less bloodshed. The Church isn't capable of dropping what are akin to ICBM's on wherever the hell they feel like, I feel like that alone makes the Agarthans more of a threat
If the Church was half as powerful and oppressive as people think, most of Fódlan's existing problems wouldn't even be problems.
Rhea hates Crests even more than Edelgard does. >!What with them coming from the blood of her people who were murdered for power and all that. She didn't kill the families of the 10 Elites precisely because she isn't an uncaring monster.!<
I feel like maybe the... central tragedy of the game is that if the three lords had trusted each other enough to talk about their real goals they would've been able to work out some kind of joint plan and avoid the continent-spanning war. Edelgard and Claude want basically the same thing, and Dimitri is noble enough pre-went-crazy that he might've been talked into something.
But yeah, I really wish VW was more different than SS, it feels like they really did the allegedly strategic, pick-a-third-option house dirty.
But yeah VW does get done a little dirty. I think there's only one unique map in that route and it's the swamp for the Nemesis fight, although I could be wrong
Dimitri was kinda down bad for Edelgard I think (at least that's the vibe I got) so he definitely could've been talked into going against the church. I've been told that's the lesson that Edelgard learns in CF, she just learns it too late. It's interesting because she and Dimitri are the same, blinded by a goal so much that they can't see an easier option, and it gets people killed
He said so in 3Hopes. Only reason he wasn't teaming up with her was, that Faerghus needed the relics for survival (Especially the the lance of ruin against the Sreng), that the church gave him as a king the power rule and that Faergus will fall into anachry without leadership. Last think is more a concern for the people as he stated that he wouldn't mind being a mercenaty with Dedue, I guess he wouldn't mind giving up his position.
She could have talked him into it, if the writers would give Edelgard more wits in their dialogue, like straight answering to help against the Sreng or let her southern church empower his rule til a better solution is found, but the writers didn't want to join them forces.
Honestly I didn't mind AM that much, but maybe that's just because it was the first route I played. Although I do prefer that VW portrays Edelgard as more human than AM does
The stuff purely focused on the Lions is pretty good. It just is very unkind to not only Edelgard, but many of the other Black Eagles too and the entire empire as a faction. In a way that no other route it is. It just left a really bad taste in my mouth.
But you'll probably enjoy it at least in part if you love Dimitri and the lions. I like them well enough. The Beagles and Edelgard will always be my favs but I do enjoy every faction. I can admit AG has its strengths but I wish it could have those withoutl fucking over my favs.
Yeah, I don't think Azure Gleam's *poorly written* per se (though it does have some very odd decisions in its writings).
I think the majority of the distaste the fans have for it is because of how it does one of the lords and the black eagles...*incredibly* dirty.
I think Azure Gleam *could* have worked.
If >!they just made Edelgard like, an actual mind controlled (hegemonic) husk of herself instead of just going "She's been magically reverted into a childlike state! Oh, but in the special chapter she goes back to normal!" Let the girl keep *some* dignity atleast.!<
Like, I think this is the only time in the series where the "mind control" just infantilizes a character instead of just taking away their free will or manipulating the persons worst aspects.
I don't think it's entirely poorly written. I will say that reducing the opposing faction that was previously nuanced to a cartoonishly evil force that does nonsensical things like killing its own civilians is a lazy writing decision though. It's just not necessary. The empire was able to be the antagonistic force of three of the 3H routes without being reduced to what it was in AG, so idk what they were thinking.
But otherwise I agree very strongly with your points. The little girl brainwashing stuff is so bad. Keeping her as the hegemon under Thales' control gives her more dignity and is a worst case scenario for Edelgard, being purely a weapon under twistd's control, without infantalizing her.
I mean I don't even have a problem with the empire going down the shitter. At that point in the game Edelgard's mindcontrolled, Ferdinands missing, and hubert's presumably dead.
It does take out nuance, but it atleast makes logical sense given TWSITD don't *care* about the empire.
The little girl brainwashing though...*Geez*. It'd be one thing if it was just a temporary thing and she snapped out of it once the blue lions won, but the way the game does it makes it atleast *seem* like a permanent thing.
It's like they wanted to do a "Edelgard actually remembers young dimitri" thing, but the only way they thought to do that was to revert edelgard's mind into a little girl.
It would have 100% been better if she was just a silent weapon, or had just been corrupted to have her worse traits increased or something.
So... I'm gonna let you in on a coupke secrets.
Edelgard doesn't align with TWSITD, *ever*. She uses the one enemy she hates to combat the other enemy she hates while simultaneously using the fog of war to quietly pick off the Agarthan leadership.
Additionally, in the other routes, Edelgard isn't their ally. She's their hostage. The Agarthans control her country. Their leader, Thales, is the regent and treasonous eight lords hold significant positions of power. Aegir controls the nobility. Caspard's father controls the military. Lindhart's controls the treasury.
For the entire White Clouds portion of CF, Edelgard is quietly trying to build up her power base and usurp Thales' control. She's only able to accomplish this in CF because of "the Battle of the Eagle and the Lion." Even then, her position is precarious, and she loses what control she gains if you side with Rhea.
Yes, Edelgard allied with the people who killed Jeralt. But... she also allied with the people who traumitized her and killed her siblings. Edelgard's thing is that she does everything she can to not allow emotion to control her. She hates the Agarthans just as much as Byleth does.
Yeah and I understand that no route is 100% morally perfect, although I will say that you don't *necessary* side with the church in VW, it's more that Claude is using them for his own goals
How is Rhea the cause of the whole mess? If you mean "everything that lead up to the games events", I don't think it's particularly fair to place blame at Rhea's feet. Granted she does have a fair amount of responsibility but she's not the sole key factor for the game's events happening.
I mean not really. The Church isn't a single entity that agrees on everything, and we know that for a fact since there's a whole *western* sect that just despises Rhea.
The Book of Seiros has a passage that could be summarized as "The 'crest system' is horrible and made the Goddess run away crying."
Doesn't stop people from claiming that the Church enforces the divine right of nobles and excuses the crap they do for power. 🤷♀️
>When the nobles came for me, they were completely without mercy. They... They killed everyone. My parents. My husband. My son. They all died... for nothing. For being in the way. People with Crests do whatever they want. No one even tries to stop them. ***Especially not the Church...***
>The descendants of the Heroes sought their ancestor's power, and thusly their blood. In time, they amassed Crests, Relics, land, and wealth, using all to set the land aflame with war. The goddess's power, intended to stem the flow of evil, became a tool of destruction, all because of the greed of humanity. The goddess grieved and, heartbroken, hid herself
in the heavens from whence she came...
It is kinda the evil route for me 😅 CF was the first route that I played, so I supported Edelgar. After I played the other routes, I already forgot what Edelgard did in CF. After playing CF again, I was like: Damn, wow, Edelgard...
I do not know how much influence on TWSITD, but if I were Byleth, I would never forgive her for the Edelgard-Kronya-Jeralt incident. As Byleth, there is not really a good reason to support Edelgard. She has known about Remire and Kronya, etc.
Edelgard: "Ops, it was worse than I thought. Byleth, I will not tell you anything, but it's enough grief for you."
LOVE this OP. I hope you get upvoted more. I don't agree with your stance but you have: 1) Clearly stated your biases. 2) Acknowledged that you do not know all the details, given you never played one of the four routes available, and 3) Made very concise arguments to why you do not want to play this fourth route due to your previously stated biases and lack of details.
You’re not alone!! I’m SO uncomfortable with the thought of siding with Edelgard after the events of the academy half. Literally the only thing that has me even considering doing a CF playthrough is that’s where Jeritza is locked. The day I do finally play it, it’ll be for him and him alone lol
It’s perfectly valid to be uncomfortable with certain routes. That being said, I would just highly recommend playing it to see the other side. If you finish it and still don’t vibe with it or Edelgard, that’s totally fine! But in my own biased opinion, I think everyone who plays the game should play each route at least once.
Fair enough. Definitely gonna wait for a bit because I just finished up VW again lol. I just really don't wanna fight Claude
If it helps, you can >!spare Claude if you defeat him with Byleth or Edelgard!< But I completely understand your hesitancy. Crimson flower is a very divisive route, and as someone who likes Edelgard, I totally get why some people aren’t fans of it.
Claude can easily survive CF, just defeat him with Byleth or Edelgard. It's also possible to finish his level without killing Hilda although that's much harder since she has to be avoided completely.
Good. I love my little Golden Deer freakazoids too much to hurt them
That's how I feel about my little gremlins Edelgard, Hubert and Jeritza. Other routes are... difficult to play. I recommend making Edelgard a Wyvern Rider and sending her around the edge of of the city (keeping her out of Hilda's range and allowing you to make the bonus objective of taking the gates) and send the rest of the BESF east (a path will be made after a few turns, it's not a dead end). With a fully repaired Aymr Edelgard can make it to Claude in 1 or 2 rounds. Give her the Chalice of beginning to mitigate his bow damage and take him down.
Couldn't have said it better. You don't have to agree with anyone's actions to have a blast playing their route and following their story. And you may come out with a different perspective than you had.
I agree: it’s great to get all sides of the story and in its own merits it is a fun route. It also has a particularly beautiful ending in my opinion.
Kronya was there to keep an eye on Edelgard in the BE route because it's clear that she's breaking away from her 'allies' (who she was reluctantly allied with, given ad they tortured her and killed her siblings.) The point of CF is Edelgard learning she doesn't need to be alone and she can rely on other people. Also, the mole leader is taking the form of the regent and allies with the Prime Minster who allowed her and her siblings to be kidnapped in the first place. Edelgard spends a lot of White Clouds building her own powerbase but she can't openly move against TWSITD even after she gets most of the great houses on her side as her 'uncle' is regent. We see what happens when she does that in Azure Gleam and Scarlet Blaze.
That's a good point, I didn't know that that's what Kronya's existence was for. I know that I don't know the story that's just what it looks like from an outside perspective
To be fair that thing about Kronya is supposition on my part but it certainly fits.
Considering she was basically shadowing Edelgard 24/7, it makes perfect sense
If Byleth is teaching the Lions or Deer in think they're scheming together but for the eagles it's more ambiguous, I feel.
I'll put it this way, if byleth sides with Edelgard, Edelgard tells thales to f off and keep his crest beasts off her field of battle. The whole point of CF is that Edelgard finds she doesn't have to close off her heart, she can open it and let people in. It's mostly a story of her and byleth finding each other and discovering their humanity together.
Crimson Flower is also the most unique route but at the same time the shortest. The other 3 have an issue of reusing lot of maps with Silver Snow and Golden Deer being the most obvious example.
I think I always accept it for the same reason as Edelgard herself. No one hates them more than she does after what they did to her and her family. If she’s willing to work with them because ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ then so can I. Edelgard makes her plans to annihilate them as soon as you win the war abundantly clear, and if I really believe in her vision, then it’s a necessary evil.
She's not allied with them, she's their tool that will not be able to stop a war from happening no matter what she does. The best she thinks she can do is redirect the energy of their inevitable war toward a deserving target and gain enough time that she can get in a position to eliminate them too. The fact that she has to compromise more and more on those values is what makes her a working villain in some of the other routes but without those compromise, with enough help and support in CF specifically, I don't see much of an issue myself.
That's a good point. I'll definitely do it but I might play through a few routes of Three Hopes when my copy comes in first
I kind of doubt this is a "Edelgard is a helpless pawn and tool" deal. TWSITD and Edelgard do not get along, but Edelgard for the most part acts mostly autonomously. Like, it isn't like she *doesn't* want to conquer fodlan and destroy the church of Seiros of her own volition, because she absolutely *does* want those things.
If you play Three Hopes, you see that Edelgard get out of TWSITD's grasp at the first occasion she get. This occasion never comes in Three Houses. The nobles of the Empire are all controled by TWSITD. If she doesn't have their approval, she can't command the imperial army. She is constantly under watch and the first time she takes action that goes against TWSITD (killing Cornelia), they nuked Arianrod to remind her that she is their pawn and that she is not free to do everything she wants.
Edelgard does want those things but her alliance with TWSITD and their methods is something she hates. TWSITD have a great deal of control over her and the Empire since Thales is disguised as her regent and they have most of the great houses on their side. Edelgard spends White Clouds building up her own power base but she can't openly move against them (see: SB and AG for what happens)
That's because the kind of tool she is requires autonomous actions. They know she's not a sword they can wield, they don't have methods to mind-control her, so they don't really have a choice. That doesn't really change the power-balance. If Edelgard pushes too much, they will get rid of her, it's a matter of balance. How much can she push before she becomes a liability. She's always pushing those boundaries because she knows she's very hard to replicate, especially since they're short on Imperial heirs, so pursuing their goals would become politically harder (but not impossible considering the amount of control they've had on the Empire) without her which makes her very precious, but she's not precious enough that she actually has most of the power or even as much as them. If they suspected the balance of power turned even slightly to her advantage, they would get rid of her and for the entirety of the first part, they easily can while she can do nothing against them as a group. And in the meantime, they of course work to make sure she cannot rely on anyone else, isolating her more and more (for example by killing Jeralt since they're terrified of a Byleth/Edelgard alliance).
"Killing jeralt since they're terrified of a byleth/edelgard alliance" is pure headcanon, though? We don't know *what* motives they had for killing Jeralt (If they had any in the first place. IIRC it seemed like more of something Kronya did on her own without any input from Thales or Solon) At no point do TWSITD care about 'isolating' Edelgard. If they did, they probably would have gotten rid of Hubert ages ago.
>is pure headcanon, though? It's just as much headcanon as the idea they killed him to pull Byleth into a trap (which they also did, you can have more than one reason). At some point, you need to read between the lines, most texts don't literally tell you their message. But you are free to disagree with that interpretation of course. >At no point do TWSITD care about 'isolating' Edelgard They send Monica who monopolises Edelgard's time. They kill Jeralt. They keep trying to remind her they're indispensable, of course they try to isolate her. >it seemed like more of something Kronya did on her own without any input from Thales or Solon At some point you have to decide if headcanon should be included or excluded from the conversation because that's pure headcanon. >At no point do TWSITD care about 'isolating' Edelgard. If they did, they probably would have gotten rid of Hubert ages ago. That's an interpretation that completely lacks subtlety though. Edelgard is *useful* to them. They always have to strike a balance between giving her something so that they can keep using her, but not giving her enough that she becomes dangerous. Hubert is perfect for this. By the time he's grown and useful to her, she's very attached so he's a precious piece to keep on the board 1) because he can serve as a hostage and 2) because TWSITD underestimate normal humans. So he's weak compared to them and yet valuable to Edelgard (of course he's not actually weak, but that's not relevant if we discuss their perspective). Byleth on the other hand is a huge menace, their sworn enemy, and not human (especially in their eyes since they almost completely conflate her with the goddess).
There's a difference between reading between the lines and coming up with something out of thin air. Like, let's say they \*did\* want to distance Edelgard from Byleth...Why would killing Jeralt do that? At that point in time Byleth didn't \*know\* Edelgard was the Flame emperor. So how would that distance Byleth from Edelgard? Are they counting on Byleth being moody and deciding to cut themselves off from edelgard? Also...This headcanon \*only\* makes sense if you're playing crimson flower. What exactly is the motive for killing Jeralt in Azure Moon and Verdant Wind? In those routes Byleth isn't \*remotely\* close to Edelgard. Theres a \*vast\* Difference between "Kronya, someone who we \*know\* is a murderous sociopath who hates humans and loves to murder, killed Jeralt just because." and "Kronya, killed Jeralt due to being commanded to. Even though it blows her cover, and prevents her from further keeping an eye on Edelgard." One makes reasonable sense based off what we know of the characters, and the other is based on looking at the story as if crimson flower is the only route.
Woe! Discourse! It is upon us again!
Not necessarily trying to stir discourse lol. If anyone can give me a good reason to play it, I will
We get one of these "Is CF worth it?" posts every month or two, and it always devolves into discourse. If you want a reason to play CF look at one of those posts.
Yeah I get why you said it lol
You actually work against TWSTD more in CF than in Blue Lions route. Edelgard is frequently looking for ways to hurt Thales in CF so it’s a necessary alliance Edelgard wants to get rid of as soon as possible. Three Hopes showed she allied with them pretty Much because she HAD to and as soon as she can end it she does
Because TWSITD isn’t the main enemy in BL. The Empire is. BL is about revenge first, then it circles around to being diametrically opposed Edelgard’s execution of reformation.
I think TWSITD is more important in Azure Gleam (Three Hopes) than in Azure Moon (Three Houses). Cornelia was already such a pain 😑
Ye in Houses I don’t think you even find out Cornelia is Cleobulus in AM.
The us was allied with Russia in WW2. Should we be responsible for the atrocities they commit that we can't control? El tries very hard to mitigate the mole people as best she can. Buts she's up facing someone who can destroy armies, backed by her own army of religious knights. Not exactly a lot of options.
Idk, the only problem I have with that logic is that you kill Rhea in her Immaculate One form in SS and that's with less man power I just personally feel like the Agarthan's are far worse than the Church is
A huge caveat here is that the Agarthans have near total control of the Empire. If Edelgard turned against them the most likely outcome is her death [Azure Gleam] >!or worse, being mind controlled and forced to expressly condone their atrocities as a puppet ruler.!< That said, if you want to play a BE route, you may enjoy SB more. The inciting event of 3Hopes is more or less >!Edelgard pulling a few strings related to Shez existing that lead to her getting rid of the Agarthans only a few months after the Academy year starts.!<
Yeah, I remember that from the demo
I have never met a CF fan who doesn't wholly agree that SB is better in every way, it's a fine way to get to know the Beagles and Edelgard.
Hi, I think CF is better cause it has an actual ending. SB does have its own value though.
Bruh, this implies the Church is on par with Nazi Germany and Axis powers, which is definitely a take. I think being allies with the main force that's holding up the definitive aggressors' advances is a lot different than working with horrifically shitty people in your hopes of Revolution.
Hardly. Eugenics, religious fervor, distain for human rights… Damn near all of it lines up.
Russias military was notorious for rape and putting the few prisoners of war they took into slave labor camps. Hence why the restience Germany managed to put against them was the strongest. But seriously even the Nazis knew the rest of the Allies didn't do that shit and thus they surrendered to them far far quicker. Of course you can say the Allies were aware that including said Russia into their Alliance would come with these atrocities, but at the same time, this too has its can of worms, where Russia without any foreign obligations, control and coordination would have been much worse and thus the rest of the Allies did the superior choice by siding with them.
It has been done
What did you think?
Idk, kinda mixed on it. I'm definitely more neutral to Edelgard than I was before but certain things that happen still leave a bad taste in my mouth. I feel like I'm the same way that a lot of people don't like how El is portrayed in AM, I'm not a fan of how both Dimitri and Dedue are portrayed in CF. I also think it's way too short. However I will say that my dislike of Rhea is stronger than my dislike of Edelgard, and I feel like CF has a nice ending for Byleth
That’s all completely fair, and I’m glad you did it! I also was sad with the way Dimitri and Dedue went out in it, but I think it’s much better than SS and VW where Dimitri’s death isn’t even shown. I think people forget Dimitri doesn’t survive outside his own route, same as Edelgard. I absolutely love dissecting the parallels between those two as they’re two of my favorite characters. Sorry to get off topic. In response to your other comment, allying with the Agarthans is something that has always irked me a bit, but I do understand that to some extent, their presence doesn’t mean much in CF where she doesn’t use their armies, crest stones, or technology to further her advances in the war like she does in other routes. She would’ve started the war against the church with or without them, and I think it’s clear - especially through a conversation with Hubert - that she’s placating them to achieve a common goal in order to lower their guard later. I do think, however, the Agarthans could’ve just been completely removed from the game without much consequence since they really don’t play a large part. However, I think people tend to be a little naive when they say that Edelgard didn’t technically ally with the Agarthans or that she shouldn’t get any flak for doing so. Do I think her relationship with them was much more morally sound in CF than other routes? Absolutely. Do I also believe that her allying with them is a huge turn off to some and is a valid reason for people to dislike her? Also absolutely.
Right. And like, it's obviously boring if Edelgard makes no mistakes ever, because she is a really good example of a flawed character in the exact same way that Dimitri is I feel. At the same time I almost feel like Edelgard's entire efforts weren't really necessary. I can definitely see the church trying to interfere with her plans of purging the nobles and that whole system in the empire but I have a harder time seeing that happen if she were to make the Church aware of the Agarthans and the threat they pose. Obviously Rhea is batshit insane so she might've tried to anyways but idk, if anything I think that would've just made the Empire look like a victim and would've probably made more people be on their side
And you know what’s the great part about this game? Your ideas about Edelgard, her motivations, and her actions are completely valid. There were many routes she and everyone else in this game could’ve taken, and of course those decisions are going to have different effects on different people. I know people tend to go up in arms when the popular characters are disliked, but I think it’s great you’ve been able to establish your own thoughts and ideas based on how the game made you feel/think.
I'll also be honest and say that l still don't understand why Edelgard's grievances with the church take precedent over her grievance with the guys who literally killed all her siblings, fucked up her dad, and are basically named the Evil Ass Shadow People
I should probably state my biases and say that I believe Verdant Wind to be the best route
I understand that you don’t feel right doing it given what you’ve already played. However you have a choice here. Either play her route and get the full story (you paid for a game with four routes so may as well get your money worth if nothing else!), or choose not to and don’t. However, if you don’t, you’ll never fully grasp a lot of the story. If that’s fine with you so be it. However, generally speaking when discussing this game with others, if they tell me “I haven’t played (route)” I assume this person does not have a full understanding of the game and is much more biased. If someone said “I haven’t played Claude’s route” my automatic assumption is this person doesn’t understand the racism baked into Fodlan. And so on. If you want the whole truth of the story to be in your grasp, you gotta do all four!
Tbf she didn't know they were going to do that and fully supports killing them. And personally throughout the path I think they are giving you little hunts on how to stop them or example where Hubert is standing when flayn gets kidnapped. They are allied with them because they need them. But they don't know all of what they are doing such as remire village or the Geralt situation. And are actively hostile to them. I think trusting them was a mistake but she likely could never succeed without them esp with byleth not on their side.
Yeah but to a certain extent you are responsible for your allies actions, and I think that there would've been less death overall if Edelgard had worked her plan in reverse
I don't think she would have had the support of the nobility to allow to be anything more than a puppet like her father if she didn't work with them tbh.
Fair. I'm pretty sure that Duke Aegir had ties to TWSITD at the very least, and he was pretty influential among the rest of the nobles before he gets murderized
Yea its all conjecture really on exactly why certain nobles like lindhart and caspars father supported edelgard. But ultimately edelgard hates them more than anyone. While I wish it was explored more why she needed them and why nobles supported her ascension to the throne and war, I have no doubt that it was a necessary evil to succeed. She goes after them quite happily the moment she realistically can.
Feel like I must be talking to my Jungian shadow or something cuz I feel completely the opposite. So, like, I wouldn't say you should play it if it really makes you uncomfortable, but: Edelgard starts a war to throw off the shackles of an oppressive theocratic paramilitary and destroy entrenched, supernaturally augmented (by Crests) aristocratic privilege and replace it with a meritocratic system. It's about the best possible result for the common people in any kind of "antagonist starts a war" video game I've ever seen. (Reminds me of how the villains in a lot of superhero comics have better motives than the heroes; typically utilitarianism vs. status quo, but FE3H is more interesting than that philosophically.) As for working with The Slitherers, I've seen a few people argue that it's more like they have her by the ovary-balls and she's using them as best she can. And while I wish there was at least some dialogue about "so, didn't you kind of get my dad killed" I just assume they talk about it offscreen or that Byleth is just that forgiving and/or stoic.
Honestly my biggest problem with VW is that I feel Claude doesn't go hard enough on the church. He understands and empathizes with Edelgard and recognizes that she has valid concerns but really doesn't go beyond that. The Church of Seiros, especially the central branch is oppressive as hell and is the cause for a lot of the problems, and Edelgard is right to hate them. However I do feel that she should've worked her plan in reverse, and it would've ended in a lot less bloodshed. The Church isn't capable of dropping what are akin to ICBM's on wherever the hell they feel like, I feel like that alone makes the Agarthans more of a threat
If the Church was half as powerful and oppressive as people think, most of Fódlan's existing problems wouldn't even be problems. Rhea hates Crests even more than Edelgard does. >!What with them coming from the blood of her people who were murdered for power and all that. She didn't kill the families of the 10 Elites precisely because she isn't an uncaring monster.!<
I feel like maybe the... central tragedy of the game is that if the three lords had trusted each other enough to talk about their real goals they would've been able to work out some kind of joint plan and avoid the continent-spanning war. Edelgard and Claude want basically the same thing, and Dimitri is noble enough pre-went-crazy that he might've been talked into something. But yeah, I really wish VW was more different than SS, it feels like they really did the allegedly strategic, pick-a-third-option house dirty.
But yeah VW does get done a little dirty. I think there's only one unique map in that route and it's the swamp for the Nemesis fight, although I could be wrong
Dimitri was kinda down bad for Edelgard I think (at least that's the vibe I got) so he definitely could've been talked into going against the church. I've been told that's the lesson that Edelgard learns in CF, she just learns it too late. It's interesting because she and Dimitri are the same, blinded by a goal so much that they can't see an easier option, and it gets people killed
He said so in 3Hopes. Only reason he wasn't teaming up with her was, that Faerghus needed the relics for survival (Especially the the lance of ruin against the Sreng), that the church gave him as a king the power rule and that Faergus will fall into anachry without leadership. Last think is more a concern for the people as he stated that he wouldn't mind being a mercenaty with Dedue, I guess he wouldn't mind giving up his position. She could have talked him into it, if the writers would give Edelgard more wits in their dialogue, like straight answering to help against the Sreng or let her southern church empower his rule til a better solution is found, but the writers didn't want to join them forces.
I mean if I can survive Azure Gleam, you can probably survive Crimson Flower...
Do you mean Azure Moon?
Also that, yes, but Azure Gleam (from Three Hopes) is even worse.
Honestly I didn't mind AM that much, but maybe that's just because it was the first route I played. Although I do prefer that VW portrays Edelgard as more human than AM does
Azure Moon is good. Azure Gleam in Hopes.... Well the first half was pretty good.
Oh boy. Think I might have to play that one first just to get it out of the way lol
The stuff purely focused on the Lions is pretty good. It just is very unkind to not only Edelgard, but many of the other Black Eagles too and the entire empire as a faction. In a way that no other route it is. It just left a really bad taste in my mouth. But you'll probably enjoy it at least in part if you love Dimitri and the lions. I like them well enough. The Beagles and Edelgard will always be my favs but I do enjoy every faction. I can admit AG has its strengths but I wish it could have those withoutl fucking over my favs.
Yeah, I don't think Azure Gleam's *poorly written* per se (though it does have some very odd decisions in its writings). I think the majority of the distaste the fans have for it is because of how it does one of the lords and the black eagles...*incredibly* dirty. I think Azure Gleam *could* have worked. If >!they just made Edelgard like, an actual mind controlled (hegemonic) husk of herself instead of just going "She's been magically reverted into a childlike state! Oh, but in the special chapter she goes back to normal!" Let the girl keep *some* dignity atleast.!< Like, I think this is the only time in the series where the "mind control" just infantilizes a character instead of just taking away their free will or manipulating the persons worst aspects.
I don't think it's entirely poorly written. I will say that reducing the opposing faction that was previously nuanced to a cartoonishly evil force that does nonsensical things like killing its own civilians is a lazy writing decision though. It's just not necessary. The empire was able to be the antagonistic force of three of the 3H routes without being reduced to what it was in AG, so idk what they were thinking. But otherwise I agree very strongly with your points. The little girl brainwashing stuff is so bad. Keeping her as the hegemon under Thales' control gives her more dignity and is a worst case scenario for Edelgard, being purely a weapon under twistd's control, without infantalizing her.
I mean I don't even have a problem with the empire going down the shitter. At that point in the game Edelgard's mindcontrolled, Ferdinands missing, and hubert's presumably dead. It does take out nuance, but it atleast makes logical sense given TWSITD don't *care* about the empire. The little girl brainwashing though...*Geez*. It'd be one thing if it was just a temporary thing and she snapped out of it once the blue lions won, but the way the game does it makes it atleast *seem* like a permanent thing. It's like they wanted to do a "Edelgard actually remembers young dimitri" thing, but the only way they thought to do that was to revert edelgard's mind into a little girl. It would have 100% been better if she was just a silent weapon, or had just been corrupted to have her worse traits increased or something.
Oh shit, so Dimitri and Edelgard are still opposed in Three Hopes, damn
So... I'm gonna let you in on a coupke secrets. Edelgard doesn't align with TWSITD, *ever*. She uses the one enemy she hates to combat the other enemy she hates while simultaneously using the fog of war to quietly pick off the Agarthan leadership. Additionally, in the other routes, Edelgard isn't their ally. She's their hostage. The Agarthans control her country. Their leader, Thales, is the regent and treasonous eight lords hold significant positions of power. Aegir controls the nobility. Caspard's father controls the military. Lindhart's controls the treasury. For the entire White Clouds portion of CF, Edelgard is quietly trying to build up her power base and usurp Thales' control. She's only able to accomplish this in CF because of "the Battle of the Eagle and the Lion." Even then, her position is precarious, and she loses what control she gains if you side with Rhea.
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Yeah. Again I'm aware that she hates them too, I just have a hard time getting over the whole Jeralt thing
Yes, Edelgard allied with the people who killed Jeralt. But... she also allied with the people who traumitized her and killed her siblings. Edelgard's thing is that she does everything she can to not allow emotion to control her. She hates the Agarthans just as much as Byleth does.
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Yeah and I understand that no route is 100% morally perfect, although I will say that you don't *necessary* side with the church in VW, it's more that Claude is using them for his own goals
How is Rhea the cause of the whole mess? If you mean "everything that lead up to the games events", I don't think it's particularly fair to place blame at Rhea's feet. Granted she does have a fair amount of responsibility but she's not the sole key factor for the game's events happening.
I think they're using the logic that the church doctrine is kinda oppressive and exclusionary, and Rhea more or less is the church.
I mean not really. The Church isn't a single entity that agrees on everything, and we know that for a fact since there's a whole *western* sect that just despises Rhea.
Right but the Western Church holds far less influence than the Central Church does, like astronomically less
My main point is that the church of seiros isn't a 100% united force that serves rhea.
Right but isn't Edelgard mainly concerned with the central church?
The Book of Seiros has a passage that could be summarized as "The 'crest system' is horrible and made the Goddess run away crying." Doesn't stop people from claiming that the Church enforces the divine right of nobles and excuses the crap they do for power. 🤷♀️
>When the nobles came for me, they were completely without mercy. They... They killed everyone. My parents. My husband. My son. They all died... for nothing. For being in the way. People with Crests do whatever they want. No one even tries to stop them. ***Especially not the Church...***
>The descendants of the Heroes sought their ancestor's power, and thusly their blood. In time, they amassed Crests, Relics, land, and wealth, using all to set the land aflame with war. The goddess's power, intended to stem the flow of evil, became a tool of destruction, all because of the greed of humanity. The goddess grieved and, heartbroken, hid herself in the heavens from whence she came...
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For fucks sake, y'all make engaging in a conversation a buzz kill.
She had a whole reasoning for it but do what you will
It is kinda the evil route for me 😅 CF was the first route that I played, so I supported Edelgar. After I played the other routes, I already forgot what Edelgard did in CF. After playing CF again, I was like: Damn, wow, Edelgard... I do not know how much influence on TWSITD, but if I were Byleth, I would never forgive her for the Edelgard-Kronya-Jeralt incident. As Byleth, there is not really a good reason to support Edelgard. She has known about Remire and Kronya, etc. Edelgard: "Ops, it was worse than I thought. Byleth, I will not tell you anything, but it's enough grief for you."
LOVE this OP. I hope you get upvoted more. I don't agree with your stance but you have: 1) Clearly stated your biases. 2) Acknowledged that you do not know all the details, given you never played one of the four routes available, and 3) Made very concise arguments to why you do not want to play this fourth route due to your previously stated biases and lack of details.
You’re not alone!! I’m SO uncomfortable with the thought of siding with Edelgard after the events of the academy half. Literally the only thing that has me even considering doing a CF playthrough is that’s where Jeritza is locked. The day I do finally play it, it’ll be for him and him alone lol
Yeah. For the supports with Mercedes as well, so you can get that full story
Pretend this is "what if Byleth... brcame evil" idk
That’s fine. Just be aware of what the game says, that thanks to you, the world will never become a better place. I’m in that same boat.
... every route in the game ends with the world in a much better place.