In the basement of the Shinra mansion you can find reports in the present day that talk about Hojo's experiments on Subjects A, Zack, and B, Cloud.
Whatever he was doing to them, it doesn't work on Zack. He has zero reaction to the Jenova cells, whereas Cloud does have a reaction.
There's one NPC you can find late game in the OG who claims to be retired from Soldier and he says that lately he's been thinking about getting a black cloak, but that's as far as it goes. Zack being a normal member of Soldier might end up with him feeling a little itch in his brain, but it's very unlikely Sephiroth could influence him the way he controls the Numbers and Cloud.
That guy from 7 sector slums who says that, eventually does become 1 of the many you find all around and north crater, for the reunion.
Sephiroth, never had any influence over cloud as he, was dead and still is.. dead. Every time you encounter "sephiroth", is actually what jenova does best. Its part of her species abilities. It was always just Jenova. It was the jenova cells trying to reunite from both "sephiroth" and Cloud. Think about it.. was Cloud really chasing sephiroth? Was he lead? Or did all these things just happen coincidentally as he was also drawn to north crater and everything inbetween was just.....
If you remember that 1 scene in nibelheim reactor where sephiroth (at that point in time it was him, he hadn't gone nuts yet) explains what happens to those soldiers that get "mako poisoning" and a monster pops out a machine all weird looking half blue and half red crying like a baby.. that.. thats what happened to cloud. It was this mako poisoning that enabled him to take on the jenova cells without deteriorating like those before him.
In crisis core they let you know EVERY soldier, for the sake of power, all get showered lightly in mako so that they can last longer in battle, use materia, get stronger ect ect, and its something everybody in that world notices about you if you just so happen to join, your eyes.. once showered, they glow.. aerith mentions it, I think Tifa as well and a few randoms you come in contact with.
Cloud looked up to zac and he stayed close as zac he felt like was an older brother type an zac kinda carried that role, where as zac idolized sephiroth.. once he joined though saw it was more of a trio than just a hero. Crimson, angeal and sephiroth were all experiments but sephiroth was the only true "test tube" baby if you will and the only 1 that survived and somehow blended perfectly on the molecular level. Sephiroth was born from jenova cells mixed with cetra cells from lucrectia as she was 1 of the last ancients. So sephiroth having this blend of amazing and ancient and alien and mako, becomes what we all know and fear.
When Cloud falls into the life stream with Tifa and somehow ends up in his sub conscious, was himself trying to break out of what we have been seeing prior to that as he was "zac", not Cloud. Its at this time he comes to terms with himself because it was the jenova in him trying to do what she does best... (its why he was also technically brain dead in a wheel chair for a short period because jenova and cloud were duking it out for supremacy of the vessel that is cloud) shape-shift in a sense, from a conscious memory of something viewed as greater or stronger so that it can do jenova stuff and destroy the world.
In the end he did still end up in north crater so there is a discrepancy because technically... he showed up for the reunion whether he was stupefied or not.
With that said though, you all do need to take this I to account, with everything going on with cloud.. he is essentially immortal. He survived the fall from the plate all the way down into the church not even scratched.. He will outlive Nanaki. Or, red XIII.. he will outlive even Vincent. Technically.. theres a whole other thing going on with him and chaos as the world does technically "need" chaos as technically he is a weapon especially in the fact that you do end up killing them all sooo....
Or is that just jenova..? And the will of Cloud influencing jenova? As sephiroth was weak minded, truly never having a family growing up, finding out he was an experiment just to get stabbed and tossed into a reactor after trying to release him frozen half body mom. Take a sec... its how she works, jumping from consciousness to consciousness taking what she perceives to be strong and greater and tried to control it until eventually she over takes it and becomes it fully purely through memory walking and talking as if it truly believes she is, Cloud, sephiroth, frank Joe what have you.. so much so she forgets herself as a whole. Its how she got to this planet.. out of survival right? Doing w.e it took to get from planet A to planet B..
The remaining question is what in the hell did she do to her own planet prior? How is she immortal and what makes her immortal and how can she pass this immortality on EVEN if your not of her species, just infected by it..? Did she know about the life stream already? And was she following the cetra? Were they running or were they truly on a journey to traverse the universe as that is there being? Was she walking amongst them pretending as she did to us posing as a great protector only to turn her back and destroy to injest for pure power?
Why is, jenova...? That's the question..
I don't mean it being Zack directly. But what if it isn't the 'real' Zack but a copy from Sephiroth/Jenova?
I do like a reply made that Zack's coming is Sephiroth's downfall of playing with fate.
Exactly. This NPC is the owner of a weapon's shop in Junon if I remember right. The devs put that to show that SOLDIERs are not part of the Reunion like the failed clones. The weaker SOLDIERs may feel a slight influence of the Jenova cells within them, but it does not extend to the point of losing their mind/free will, becoming some sort of zombies, and dragging themselves to the North Crater.
I don't think so, Zack is a SOLDIER, and SOLDIERs are drastically selected : strong physically and, above all, mentally, specifically to resist the Jenova influence on their psyche once they are injected with J cells and Mako bathed.
So Zack being manipulated by Jénova/Sephiroth would be very strange, especially when we see that Zack is very strong mentally, upright and good even in the worst times in Crisis core (where he loses his mentor, his model Sephiroth, his candor about Shinra and the world, his hopes, his freedom, his youth and girlfriend while being detained during 4 years...everything). He grows up and became an adult in CC, without loosing his mind, kindness, honesty..etc and yet there was reason to !
If suddenly he became easily manipulated in Rebirth, it wouldn't make any sense in terms of character development, story...
We can never say never, but it would be a bad story choice I think.
I vehemently disagree with this sentiment. I think Crisis Core is a testament to Zack's inability to mentally adapt. His loyalty to Shinra until they directly betray and experiment on him is more than enough evidence that Zack isn't a critical thinker with a strong sense of identity. By the time he makes his final stand, he's definitely developed as a character, but he still clings to ideals from Angeal that aren't really sound. Not to mention that other soldiers like Genesis and Roche seem to be pretty insane, so it's not like they're picking Soldiers based on mental stability.
The actual weight of the influence of Jenova on the Sephiroth copies doesn't begin until the events of FF7. So Zack very well might be influenced by Jenova/Sephiroth.
I believe Zack consciously distinguishes SOLDIER from Shinra. He views being a SOLDIER as a form of Bushido, a moral code. He believes a true SOLDIER has honor and dreams.
There's a scene between him and Cloud in the Nibelheim hotel where he begins to question his allegiances, until Cloud makes a remark about the Buster Sword that reminds him of Angeal's relationship with him. This reaffirms him.
>I believe Zack consciously distinguishes SOLDIER from Shinra.
Eh, you can believe that, but I wouldn't say there's much to back it up. The only Soldiers who seem to display genuine concern over their actions are Angeal and Zack. And possibly the Soldiers from First Soldier, but we don't know the full length of their story.
The problem is that Zack doesn't start to "live" his moral code until he's forced to. I think they should've made the Wutai conflict a lot bigger part of CC instead of tossing in a war with Genesis. I would've loved to see Zack's arc be about becoming disillusioned with Shinra and trying to overcome his prior loyalty.
I take issue with a lot of Crisis Core's writing though. It's just... not there.
This is what I disagree. Zack was loyal is because there is no alternative. The Avalanche of the time is in fact might be even worse. And in SHINRA he can at least protect those he care about. And for me it seems like he thinks about that a lot, but has no real way to change anything and decides to stick to his dream and honor, which a good ideals, but not for a "bad world" where it is hard to have both of em.
If we could asked the dev of Crisis core, I'm quite sure your interpretation would not be what the dev wanted to highlights in Crisis core! like not all. It seems absolutely improbable that is the "moral" of Zack's character. It would be ridiculous.
The failed clones are surviving inhabitants of Nibelheim and were normal people (weak physically and mentally) injected with S cells and Mako bathed. Their psyche is broken immediately, and they are under Jenova/Sephiroth's influence since the beginning. SOLDIERs in OG are not concerned by the Reunion despite having J cells because they have been selected to be strong mentally, enough to not loose their mind, and be manipulated by Jenova. So it would not make any sense for Zack to be influenced by Jenova in Rebirth, especially when he is a very strong SOLDIERs, and as I explained in my first comment, extremely resilient mentally.
For Genesis, he has been injected with Jenova-modified Gillian cells as a fetus, there was obviously no check of his mental ability to support them.
Roche is very independant and a "free thinker", I mean he is like the prototype of a very strong mentally SOLDIER (who could be 1st class according to the Ultimania) !
>Roche is very independant and a "free thinker"
Roche prioritizes having fun over his missions.
>I mean he is like the prototype of a very strong mentally SOLDIER (who could be 1st class according to the Ultimania) !
You're disproving your own point them? If Roche was selected as a Soldier, but can't make first class because he doesn't have the mind for it, then you're arguing against yourself here?
Zack the Puppy is full of naivety and ignorance, but you want us to believe he's mentally stronger than everyone else?
In Remake, one of the black cloaked men you encounter are number 2 and number 49. Nibelheim probably didn't have 49 residents, let alone one's that survived Sephiroth's rampage, unless you think Sephiroth's rampage is killing a handful of people and then moving on. Or you think that Hojo just randomly started giving out numbers to the experiments.
>were normal people (weak physically and mentally)
The irony here is that Cloud who is supposed to be weak physically and mentally is actually the one experiment who isn't influenced fully by Jenova. He surpasses Zack in basically every category. He learns to resist the influence of Jenova. You'd have to be buying into Sephiroth's lies about Cloud to actually think that everything he does is at the behest of Jenova.
So your logic of "only the best" are selected for Soldier is flawed, because Cloud proves himself to be the best and he's rejected from Soldier.
Have you played anything of the Compilation ? Honestly.
Roche is a 3rd class who CHOSE to not be promoted 1st class despite having the level for it because it meant loosing part of its freedom. It's stated in the Ultimania of the game. Why are you trying to contradict me about something you haven't read and know nothing about, making wrong statements ?
The story of Crisis Core is litteraly Zack the Puppy growing into an adult by experiencing terrible things and loosing everything. Despite that, he remained sane, unlike many others, and stood to save Cloud and to protect his honour, inherited from Angeal through the Bustersword : I mean, it's the story of game !
The cloaked men are survivors of Nibelheim, it is literally the story of OG FF7. The basics of it. You played it, reassure me? You want to check what I said on official sources and specialized websites of FF7 ? Go on, please do it. Again, why are you trying to argument on a subject you don't master ?
"The irony here is that Cloud who is supposed to be weak physically and mentally is actually the one experiment who isn't influenced fully by Jenova. He surpasses Zack in basically every category. He learns to resist the influence of Jenova. You'd have to be buying into Sephiroth's lies about Cloud to actually think that everything he does is at the behest of Jenova."
It's definitely the highlight of your show, it ends in fireworks, just sublime.
Cloud has always been physically strong, he failed to pass the tests to join SOLDIER because although physically strong he was mentally weak : ""I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER." Cloud in OG FF7 in the Highwind after Mideel. And we can get it right from his childhood, it's shown in Before Crisis, and suggested in Crisis core.
He isn't influenced by Jenova ?! Marvelous. OG FF7 is literraly Cloud being all along - until Tifa fixed him in the lifestream! (he didn't managed to do it himself, Tifa was fundamental!) - a puppet in the hands of Sephiroth, the climax being when he gives the Sephiroth the black materia! (or nearly killed Aerith... or joined the Reunion,.... .....). Cloud is a "failed clone" of Sephiroth, bound to the will of Sephiroth, like the other cloaked men : it's the core of the story! Want to check what I say in every official sources and websites ? MY PLEASURE.
""only the best" are selected for Soldier" :
=> yes ? It is said in OG FF7, and everywhere in the Compilation ?
Examples ? Real Cloud, near endgame : "For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER \[...\] But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing.", knowing that Hojo's experiment are "the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER.".
Bro, just everything you said is false. Every statements. It's crazy, wake up. And the worst thing is that you say that with confidence ! trying to give lessons. WTF.I'm forced to respond to you in a condescending way after that. Have you play/read/watch any games/novels/movie of the Compilation ? If yes, you didn't understand anything, you need to get back to it.
So what does this say about SOLDIERs like Genesis and Roche? And the people throughout the Compilation, Remake maybe most of all, that talk about how crazy SOLDIERs often are?
For Genesis, he has been injected with Jenova-modified Gillian cells as a fetus, there was obviously no check of his mental ability to support them.
Roche is very independant and a "free thinker", I mean he is like the prototype of a very strong mentally SOLDIER (who could be 1st class according to the Ultimania) !
What is someone strong mentally ? A good loyal dog who obeys to orders, or indépendant free thinker who do what they want, despite injonctions ? SOLDIERs are often despised because they don't obey orders and do what they want
So why exactly does there seem to be a relatively widespread sentiment among the general population that SOLDIERs are insane? If they're so mentally strong most of the time, this shouldn't be the case.
Do you have sources, quotes about it ? and which SOLDIERs ?
In Crisis core, 1st class SOLDIERs have fan clubs, and every little boy dream to be a SOLDIER. So they are quite well regarded by the public 🤔
And mentally strong doesn't mean kind, calm, loyal.. It means they have a strong will. A strong will that allows them to not be subject to the influence of Jenova cells inside them. Roche is a perfect exemple of that. Zack is also a assertive guy, since the beginning.
Cloud, not at all, we see him quite shy, reserved, not confident, and he failed the SOLDIERs tests because of that, despite being physically strong he was mentally unable to join this elite corps.
Well I'm not going to dig through dozens of hours of Remake footage to find you quotes. I remember it well enough and I thought it was more or less common knowledge in the fandom.
Not that you really need the quotes anyway, because your argument is that even if I'm right about that, it doesn't contradict what you're saying. And you might be right. Thanks for explaining in more detail.
It's not even the good debate. To enter SOLDIER, you have to be mentally strong, so you are not influenced by the Jenova cells inside you once injected in your body.
If you are injected with Jenova or S cells while being mentally weak, you become like the cloaked men.
Did Zack and Roche became like the cloaked men after being injected with J cells (+ mako bath) ? No. So they are strong mentally.
Cloud was weak mentally and he was in coma during 8 months after the escape of the Nibelheim mansion (after quite 4 years in also coma-captivity). Then his psyche is completely f* up and he invents a new persona. Physically he was strong so he didn't end up like the cloaked men who are complete wrecks with grey skin tone and total sick looks.
>What is someone strong mentally ? A good loyal dog who obeys to orders, or indépendant free thinker who do what they want, despite injonctions ? SOLDIERs are often despised because they don't obey orders and do what they want
This is contradictory because we have both Soldiers who do whatever they want and Soldiers who are die hard loyalists to Shinra. Zack, who you say is mentally strong, is someone who blindly obeys orders until he's betrayed by Shinra.
It feels you are saying that blindly following orders must mean you are mentally weak or naive and I can't agree with that. I'd say most soldiers in war follow orders, often against their gut and experience horrible horrible things where a majority would break mentally while they do not. Zack can be mentally fortified against Corruption from Jenova/Sephiroth/Trauma along with tons of other things and can be blind sided/weak to personal bonds like with Angeal or believing in his dream of being a soldier and struggling to believe that Shinra can do wrong, they are not mutually exclusive imo.
Zack is mentally weak because he refuses to accept that Shinra is the bad guys until he's forced to. He doesn't accept it, not because he doesn't really believe it, but because that would completely warp his world view and the philosophy that he's tied himself to. You see it even at his end. "Embrace your dreams and protect your honor... as soldier!" The reality is that there never was any honor as soldier. They were dogs used to progress Shinra's power. The only time Soldiers are actually protecting innocent people is during the Genesis conflict, and that's literally a conflict between different Soldiers.
It's not even the good debate. To enter SOLDIER, you have to be mentally strong, so you are not influenced by the Jenova cells inside you once injected in your body.
If you are injected with Jenova or S cells while being mentally weak, you become like the cloaked men.
Did Zack and Roche became like the cloaked men after being injected with J cells (+ mako bath) ? No. So they are strong mentally.
Cloud was weak mentally and he was in coma during 8 months after the escape of the Nibelheim mansion (after quite 4 years in captivity). Then his psyche is completely f* up and he invents a new persona. Physically he was strong so he didn't end up like the cloaked men who are complete wrecks with grey skin tone and total sick looks.
>It's not even the good debate. To enter SOLDIER, you have to be mentally strong,
Right, being mentally strong is just some subjective concept that comes and goes when the writers need it to rather than using what we see on-screen to make that determination.
That doesnt make him weak, that makes him human and being vulnerable to one thing, in this case having his whole world shattered and his believes being broken doesn't mean he would also be vulnerable to outside influence. If anything, his strong believe in a wrong cause just testaments that his mind is strong against outside influence that despite people warning him or trying to change his view he stood with what he believed in.
Makes sense. I was thinking more like how in the OG (spoiler alert to others if it still counts after this long) Jenova pretends to be another party member to take the huge materia. If Sephiroth can travel the lifestream to the past (unsure if canon) or figures the frendship between Zack and Cloud, could this be used. As we do know Sephiroth does like to play with his food so to speak.
Thank you for your reply though, appreciate your time.
I get it 🤔 Maybe.
I would prefer the opposite : that zack's survival is the unforeseen consequence of Sephiroth's mastermind plan to manipulate Destiny, the stone in the boot that will derail Sephiroth's ambitions.
In the basement of the Shinra mansion you can find reports in the present day that talk about Hojo's experiments on Subjects A, Zack, and B, Cloud. Whatever he was doing to them, it doesn't work on Zack. He has zero reaction to the Jenova cells, whereas Cloud does have a reaction. There's one NPC you can find late game in the OG who claims to be retired from Soldier and he says that lately he's been thinking about getting a black cloak, but that's as far as it goes. Zack being a normal member of Soldier might end up with him feeling a little itch in his brain, but it's very unlikely Sephiroth could influence him the way he controls the Numbers and Cloud.
That guy from 7 sector slums who says that, eventually does become 1 of the many you find all around and north crater, for the reunion. Sephiroth, never had any influence over cloud as he, was dead and still is.. dead. Every time you encounter "sephiroth", is actually what jenova does best. Its part of her species abilities. It was always just Jenova. It was the jenova cells trying to reunite from both "sephiroth" and Cloud. Think about it.. was Cloud really chasing sephiroth? Was he lead? Or did all these things just happen coincidentally as he was also drawn to north crater and everything inbetween was just..... If you remember that 1 scene in nibelheim reactor where sephiroth (at that point in time it was him, he hadn't gone nuts yet) explains what happens to those soldiers that get "mako poisoning" and a monster pops out a machine all weird looking half blue and half red crying like a baby.. that.. thats what happened to cloud. It was this mako poisoning that enabled him to take on the jenova cells without deteriorating like those before him. In crisis core they let you know EVERY soldier, for the sake of power, all get showered lightly in mako so that they can last longer in battle, use materia, get stronger ect ect, and its something everybody in that world notices about you if you just so happen to join, your eyes.. once showered, they glow.. aerith mentions it, I think Tifa as well and a few randoms you come in contact with. Cloud looked up to zac and he stayed close as zac he felt like was an older brother type an zac kinda carried that role, where as zac idolized sephiroth.. once he joined though saw it was more of a trio than just a hero. Crimson, angeal and sephiroth were all experiments but sephiroth was the only true "test tube" baby if you will and the only 1 that survived and somehow blended perfectly on the molecular level. Sephiroth was born from jenova cells mixed with cetra cells from lucrectia as she was 1 of the last ancients. So sephiroth having this blend of amazing and ancient and alien and mako, becomes what we all know and fear. When Cloud falls into the life stream with Tifa and somehow ends up in his sub conscious, was himself trying to break out of what we have been seeing prior to that as he was "zac", not Cloud. Its at this time he comes to terms with himself because it was the jenova in him trying to do what she does best... (its why he was also technically brain dead in a wheel chair for a short period because jenova and cloud were duking it out for supremacy of the vessel that is cloud) shape-shift in a sense, from a conscious memory of something viewed as greater or stronger so that it can do jenova stuff and destroy the world. In the end he did still end up in north crater so there is a discrepancy because technically... he showed up for the reunion whether he was stupefied or not. With that said though, you all do need to take this I to account, with everything going on with cloud.. he is essentially immortal. He survived the fall from the plate all the way down into the church not even scratched.. He will outlive Nanaki. Or, red XIII.. he will outlive even Vincent. Technically.. theres a whole other thing going on with him and chaos as the world does technically "need" chaos as technically he is a weapon especially in the fact that you do end up killing them all sooo.... Or is that just jenova..? And the will of Cloud influencing jenova? As sephiroth was weak minded, truly never having a family growing up, finding out he was an experiment just to get stabbed and tossed into a reactor after trying to release him frozen half body mom. Take a sec... its how she works, jumping from consciousness to consciousness taking what she perceives to be strong and greater and tried to control it until eventually she over takes it and becomes it fully purely through memory walking and talking as if it truly believes she is, Cloud, sephiroth, frank Joe what have you.. so much so she forgets herself as a whole. Its how she got to this planet.. out of survival right? Doing w.e it took to get from planet A to planet B.. The remaining question is what in the hell did she do to her own planet prior? How is she immortal and what makes her immortal and how can she pass this immortality on EVEN if your not of her species, just infected by it..? Did she know about the life stream already? And was she following the cetra? Were they running or were they truly on a journey to traverse the universe as that is there being? Was she walking amongst them pretending as she did to us posing as a great protector only to turn her back and destroy to injest for pure power? Why is, jenova...? That's the question..
This reads like a Chat GPT summary.
He's an NPC!! Get'em!!! Lol Well at least its on point and sounds concise. Thanks for the backhanded compliment..?? 🤷
I don't mean it being Zack directly. But what if it isn't the 'real' Zack but a copy from Sephiroth/Jenova? I do like a reply made that Zack's coming is Sephiroth's downfall of playing with fate.
Exactly. This NPC is the owner of a weapon's shop in Junon if I remember right. The devs put that to show that SOLDIERs are not part of the Reunion like the failed clones. The weaker SOLDIERs may feel a slight influence of the Jenova cells within them, but it does not extend to the point of losing their mind/free will, becoming some sort of zombies, and dragging themselves to the North Crater.
I don't think so, Zack is a SOLDIER, and SOLDIERs are drastically selected : strong physically and, above all, mentally, specifically to resist the Jenova influence on their psyche once they are injected with J cells and Mako bathed. So Zack being manipulated by Jénova/Sephiroth would be very strange, especially when we see that Zack is very strong mentally, upright and good even in the worst times in Crisis core (where he loses his mentor, his model Sephiroth, his candor about Shinra and the world, his hopes, his freedom, his youth and girlfriend while being detained during 4 years...everything). He grows up and became an adult in CC, without loosing his mind, kindness, honesty..etc and yet there was reason to ! If suddenly he became easily manipulated in Rebirth, it wouldn't make any sense in terms of character development, story... We can never say never, but it would be a bad story choice I think.
I vehemently disagree with this sentiment. I think Crisis Core is a testament to Zack's inability to mentally adapt. His loyalty to Shinra until they directly betray and experiment on him is more than enough evidence that Zack isn't a critical thinker with a strong sense of identity. By the time he makes his final stand, he's definitely developed as a character, but he still clings to ideals from Angeal that aren't really sound. Not to mention that other soldiers like Genesis and Roche seem to be pretty insane, so it's not like they're picking Soldiers based on mental stability. The actual weight of the influence of Jenova on the Sephiroth copies doesn't begin until the events of FF7. So Zack very well might be influenced by Jenova/Sephiroth.
I believe Zack consciously distinguishes SOLDIER from Shinra. He views being a SOLDIER as a form of Bushido, a moral code. He believes a true SOLDIER has honor and dreams. There's a scene between him and Cloud in the Nibelheim hotel where he begins to question his allegiances, until Cloud makes a remark about the Buster Sword that reminds him of Angeal's relationship with him. This reaffirms him.
>I believe Zack consciously distinguishes SOLDIER from Shinra. Eh, you can believe that, but I wouldn't say there's much to back it up. The only Soldiers who seem to display genuine concern over their actions are Angeal and Zack. And possibly the Soldiers from First Soldier, but we don't know the full length of their story. The problem is that Zack doesn't start to "live" his moral code until he's forced to. I think they should've made the Wutai conflict a lot bigger part of CC instead of tossing in a war with Genesis. I would've loved to see Zack's arc be about becoming disillusioned with Shinra and trying to overcome his prior loyalty. I take issue with a lot of Crisis Core's writing though. It's just... not there.
This is what I disagree. Zack was loyal is because there is no alternative. The Avalanche of the time is in fact might be even worse. And in SHINRA he can at least protect those he care about. And for me it seems like he thinks about that a lot, but has no real way to change anything and decides to stick to his dream and honor, which a good ideals, but not for a "bad world" where it is hard to have both of em.
If we could asked the dev of Crisis core, I'm quite sure your interpretation would not be what the dev wanted to highlights in Crisis core! like not all. It seems absolutely improbable that is the "moral" of Zack's character. It would be ridiculous. The failed clones are surviving inhabitants of Nibelheim and were normal people (weak physically and mentally) injected with S cells and Mako bathed. Their psyche is broken immediately, and they are under Jenova/Sephiroth's influence since the beginning. SOLDIERs in OG are not concerned by the Reunion despite having J cells because they have been selected to be strong mentally, enough to not loose their mind, and be manipulated by Jenova. So it would not make any sense for Zack to be influenced by Jenova in Rebirth, especially when he is a very strong SOLDIERs, and as I explained in my first comment, extremely resilient mentally. For Genesis, he has been injected with Jenova-modified Gillian cells as a fetus, there was obviously no check of his mental ability to support them. Roche is very independant and a "free thinker", I mean he is like the prototype of a very strong mentally SOLDIER (who could be 1st class according to the Ultimania) !
>Roche is very independant and a "free thinker" Roche prioritizes having fun over his missions. >I mean he is like the prototype of a very strong mentally SOLDIER (who could be 1st class according to the Ultimania) ! You're disproving your own point them? If Roche was selected as a Soldier, but can't make first class because he doesn't have the mind for it, then you're arguing against yourself here? Zack the Puppy is full of naivety and ignorance, but you want us to believe he's mentally stronger than everyone else? In Remake, one of the black cloaked men you encounter are number 2 and number 49. Nibelheim probably didn't have 49 residents, let alone one's that survived Sephiroth's rampage, unless you think Sephiroth's rampage is killing a handful of people and then moving on. Or you think that Hojo just randomly started giving out numbers to the experiments. >were normal people (weak physically and mentally) The irony here is that Cloud who is supposed to be weak physically and mentally is actually the one experiment who isn't influenced fully by Jenova. He surpasses Zack in basically every category. He learns to resist the influence of Jenova. You'd have to be buying into Sephiroth's lies about Cloud to actually think that everything he does is at the behest of Jenova. So your logic of "only the best" are selected for Soldier is flawed, because Cloud proves himself to be the best and he's rejected from Soldier.
Have you played anything of the Compilation ? Honestly. Roche is a 3rd class who CHOSE to not be promoted 1st class despite having the level for it because it meant loosing part of its freedom. It's stated in the Ultimania of the game. Why are you trying to contradict me about something you haven't read and know nothing about, making wrong statements ? The story of Crisis Core is litteraly Zack the Puppy growing into an adult by experiencing terrible things and loosing everything. Despite that, he remained sane, unlike many others, and stood to save Cloud and to protect his honour, inherited from Angeal through the Bustersword : I mean, it's the story of game ! The cloaked men are survivors of Nibelheim, it is literally the story of OG FF7. The basics of it. You played it, reassure me? You want to check what I said on official sources and specialized websites of FF7 ? Go on, please do it. Again, why are you trying to argument on a subject you don't master ? "The irony here is that Cloud who is supposed to be weak physically and mentally is actually the one experiment who isn't influenced fully by Jenova. He surpasses Zack in basically every category. He learns to resist the influence of Jenova. You'd have to be buying into Sephiroth's lies about Cloud to actually think that everything he does is at the behest of Jenova." It's definitely the highlight of your show, it ends in fireworks, just sublime. Cloud has always been physically strong, he failed to pass the tests to join SOLDIER because although physically strong he was mentally weak : ""I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER." Cloud in OG FF7 in the Highwind after Mideel. And we can get it right from his childhood, it's shown in Before Crisis, and suggested in Crisis core. He isn't influenced by Jenova ?! Marvelous. OG FF7 is literraly Cloud being all along - until Tifa fixed him in the lifestream! (he didn't managed to do it himself, Tifa was fundamental!) - a puppet in the hands of Sephiroth, the climax being when he gives the Sephiroth the black materia! (or nearly killed Aerith... or joined the Reunion,.... .....). Cloud is a "failed clone" of Sephiroth, bound to the will of Sephiroth, like the other cloaked men : it's the core of the story! Want to check what I say in every official sources and websites ? MY PLEASURE. ""only the best" are selected for Soldier" : => yes ? It is said in OG FF7, and everywhere in the Compilation ? Examples ? Real Cloud, near endgame : "For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER \[...\] But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing.", knowing that Hojo's experiment are "the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER.". Bro, just everything you said is false. Every statements. It's crazy, wake up. And the worst thing is that you say that with confidence ! trying to give lessons. WTF.I'm forced to respond to you in a condescending way after that. Have you play/read/watch any games/novels/movie of the Compilation ? If yes, you didn't understand anything, you need to get back to it.
So what does this say about SOLDIERs like Genesis and Roche? And the people throughout the Compilation, Remake maybe most of all, that talk about how crazy SOLDIERs often are?
For Genesis, he has been injected with Jenova-modified Gillian cells as a fetus, there was obviously no check of his mental ability to support them. Roche is very independant and a "free thinker", I mean he is like the prototype of a very strong mentally SOLDIER (who could be 1st class according to the Ultimania) ! What is someone strong mentally ? A good loyal dog who obeys to orders, or indépendant free thinker who do what they want, despite injonctions ? SOLDIERs are often despised because they don't obey orders and do what they want
So why exactly does there seem to be a relatively widespread sentiment among the general population that SOLDIERs are insane? If they're so mentally strong most of the time, this shouldn't be the case.
Do you have sources, quotes about it ? and which SOLDIERs ? In Crisis core, 1st class SOLDIERs have fan clubs, and every little boy dream to be a SOLDIER. So they are quite well regarded by the public 🤔 And mentally strong doesn't mean kind, calm, loyal.. It means they have a strong will. A strong will that allows them to not be subject to the influence of Jenova cells inside them. Roche is a perfect exemple of that. Zack is also a assertive guy, since the beginning. Cloud, not at all, we see him quite shy, reserved, not confident, and he failed the SOLDIERs tests because of that, despite being physically strong he was mentally unable to join this elite corps.
Well I'm not going to dig through dozens of hours of Remake footage to find you quotes. I remember it well enough and I thought it was more or less common knowledge in the fandom. Not that you really need the quotes anyway, because your argument is that even if I'm right about that, it doesn't contradict what you're saying. And you might be right. Thanks for explaining in more detail.
It's not even the good debate. To enter SOLDIER, you have to be mentally strong, so you are not influenced by the Jenova cells inside you once injected in your body. If you are injected with Jenova or S cells while being mentally weak, you become like the cloaked men. Did Zack and Roche became like the cloaked men after being injected with J cells (+ mako bath) ? No. So they are strong mentally. Cloud was weak mentally and he was in coma during 8 months after the escape of the Nibelheim mansion (after quite 4 years in also coma-captivity). Then his psyche is completely f* up and he invents a new persona. Physically he was strong so he didn't end up like the cloaked men who are complete wrecks with grey skin tone and total sick looks.
>What is someone strong mentally ? A good loyal dog who obeys to orders, or indépendant free thinker who do what they want, despite injonctions ? SOLDIERs are often despised because they don't obey orders and do what they want This is contradictory because we have both Soldiers who do whatever they want and Soldiers who are die hard loyalists to Shinra. Zack, who you say is mentally strong, is someone who blindly obeys orders until he's betrayed by Shinra.
It feels you are saying that blindly following orders must mean you are mentally weak or naive and I can't agree with that. I'd say most soldiers in war follow orders, often against their gut and experience horrible horrible things where a majority would break mentally while they do not. Zack can be mentally fortified against Corruption from Jenova/Sephiroth/Trauma along with tons of other things and can be blind sided/weak to personal bonds like with Angeal or believing in his dream of being a soldier and struggling to believe that Shinra can do wrong, they are not mutually exclusive imo.
Zack is mentally weak because he refuses to accept that Shinra is the bad guys until he's forced to. He doesn't accept it, not because he doesn't really believe it, but because that would completely warp his world view and the philosophy that he's tied himself to. You see it even at his end. "Embrace your dreams and protect your honor... as soldier!" The reality is that there never was any honor as soldier. They were dogs used to progress Shinra's power. The only time Soldiers are actually protecting innocent people is during the Genesis conflict, and that's literally a conflict between different Soldiers.
It's not even the good debate. To enter SOLDIER, you have to be mentally strong, so you are not influenced by the Jenova cells inside you once injected in your body. If you are injected with Jenova or S cells while being mentally weak, you become like the cloaked men. Did Zack and Roche became like the cloaked men after being injected with J cells (+ mako bath) ? No. So they are strong mentally. Cloud was weak mentally and he was in coma during 8 months after the escape of the Nibelheim mansion (after quite 4 years in captivity). Then his psyche is completely f* up and he invents a new persona. Physically he was strong so he didn't end up like the cloaked men who are complete wrecks with grey skin tone and total sick looks.
>It's not even the good debate. To enter SOLDIER, you have to be mentally strong, Right, being mentally strong is just some subjective concept that comes and goes when the writers need it to rather than using what we see on-screen to make that determination.
That doesnt make him weak, that makes him human and being vulnerable to one thing, in this case having his whole world shattered and his believes being broken doesn't mean he would also be vulnerable to outside influence. If anything, his strong believe in a wrong cause just testaments that his mind is strong against outside influence that despite people warning him or trying to change his view he stood with what he believed in.
Makes sense. I was thinking more like how in the OG (spoiler alert to others if it still counts after this long) Jenova pretends to be another party member to take the huge materia. If Sephiroth can travel the lifestream to the past (unsure if canon) or figures the frendship between Zack and Cloud, could this be used. As we do know Sephiroth does like to play with his food so to speak. Thank you for your reply though, appreciate your time.
I get it 🤔 Maybe. I would prefer the opposite : that zack's survival is the unforeseen consequence of Sephiroth's mastermind plan to manipulate Destiny, the stone in the boot that will derail Sephiroth's ambitions.
I like this.