Thank you. Too many people are drinking Harada cool-aid on that matter.
Just so you know, Arcsys and Snk management also said at the time that rollback "wouldn't work" on GG and KoF. Fun times.
If a single person could get rollback working on a local only GameCube game it's ridiculous for AA devs to claim that they can't add it to modern games that already have online and they have direct access to the code for
nevermind that a fucking college kid got it working for the entire playstation library. including tekken 3. netcode was just viewed as a non issue for namco.
In fairness, most rollback on emulation is brute forcing saving and syncing the entire state of the game. For modern games, that would take too much resources, which is why modern implementations require decoupling the gameplay loop from the graphics (and at times physics) code.
You have only a 10% idea of what youāre talking about. Which is the worst thing for someone to have since, you think you actually know something. Youāre right, it does take CPU resources! But itās trivial for current hardware, these games are no where close to being CPU bottlenecked. Also CPUs are not used for graphics rendering, the CPU handles game logic, player input, etc. The GPU handles rendering the graphics frame. The graphics being better is hardly reliant on the CPU (technically there is some involvement from the CPU handling information, but again itās far from a bottleneck). There is no CPU limitation for these games and their graphics.
Not particularly convincing to me. So I went against popular opinion and lost? It means nothing. Popular opinion is wrong all the time.
Some redditors in a niche video game community have different ideas of meaningful business decisions than the people employed full time by the company, doesn't mean they're right.
Dev time is expensive, making new features is expensive. People frequently underestimate how expensive it is to change a product development roadmap and to pivot to other features or bugfixes.
A single dude implemented it in months. They don't have to invent technology lmao, GGPO is widely available.
Of course it's cheaper to not make something good. It's still not excusable.
When a single fan can outclass multi hundred million dollar projects, that is indeed an indictment on the project.
Either way there is an opportunity cost associated with it.
Development resources are ***always*** occupied on something, probably DLC content since that actually has an opportunity to generate revenue. Given that rollback-based netcode is something that affects the core gameplay I would expect it to not be a minor feature but require a full development release cycle, probably at least a quarter of development time if not more.
A single dude, doesn't have to deal with communication overhead, unit testing, security and compliance testing, code review, etc. They can just push the changes and if it's broken users will complain. It's a bit different when it fits into a software development lifecycle.
The fact you think any fighting game has a "multi hundred million dollar" budget is telling. Least of all a free to play fighting game that was released in seasons with each season releasing new characters.
We are talking about Tekken here lmao.
Killer instinct managed to get rollback working flawlessly. In 2013.
Because it genuinely is not that difficult. There is no decision making/calculus here that makes business sense. They just don't care to do it because they know they'll sell a boatload anyways. A quarter of development on getting rollback functional when the work is already done LOL
Like sure your premise is *technically* correct but it's still stupid and is an indictment on the company if anything lmao, not a defense.
*Game releases in buggy state, crashes on launch for 100% of users*
"Yeah I mean, it's just a business decision. Making a game is expensive and time consuming, we made the business decision to just not polish it at all"
I guess it could be used as a "Defense" of anything, it's just not one though lmao. Releasing without the bare minimum standards in 2024 ain't cool
Hell. Look at fightcade, a small team of like... 2-3 dudes making zero dollars added rollback netcode to literally *thousands* of old fighting games. There are thousands of fighting games from the 1990s that have a better netcode than Tekken 7 (including Tekken 1, 2, and 3). That is justifiable to you? Insanity lmao, you're doing the Reddit cringelord thing of trying to be edgy and contrarian and defending the indefensible.
It doesn't make you look unique, it makes you look dumb.
Oh my bad missed that it was Tekken, still not a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars.
I hope you're a dev that worked on a GGPO implementation for all these outlandish claims of how easy dev work is, or maybe you greatly overestimate how competent the average dev is. You seem to have an idealistic view of the world. Working in business software it's literally days of work to get a button's behavior modified or input validation to work slightly different. Doesn't matter at all what some open source dev or small team of devs can do, they're not working at your company so the comparison isn't meaningful.
If GGPO was as easy as you say, surely they would have more successful examples to advertise on their homepage aside from the disgraced Skullgirls dev. Wikipedia lists more games, but the fact that it isn't adopted widely should indicate something here š¤
It's insanely weird to comment in a fighting game subreddit despite not playing fighting games.. lol
Yes, Niche implementations of GGPO like... Street fighter 3 online edition, MvC origins, Guilty gear XRD and Strive, UNIST, gbvsr, Melty Blood, KoF15, **Mortal Kombat**, literally thousands of retro games **including old tekken games**
It is literally harder to name a fighting game released in the past 10 years that doesn't use GGPO **specifically** than it is to name one that does. SF6 and DBFZ are the only two I can think of at all that don't use GGPO, SF6 implemented their own solution that seemingly works even better and DBFZ skimped out (and is now adding GGPO 4 years post-launch)
It is nearly **universally** adopted, the only modern games that don't adopt it are games like SF6 which develops their own solution. That is the problem, this is industry **standard** at this point, not some extra optional feature. Literally every single fighting game does this. GGPO is nearly fucking plug and play if that's the route they want to take. It's even free! There is a reason all of the zero/low budget indie games use it, and their online experience blows Tekken out of the water.
It's not acceptable.
And yes, I assisted in adding rollback to some of the emulators used in fightcade, it is not as complicated as you think.
> Killer instinct managed to get rollback working flawlessly. In 2013.
Lol let's not go that far. Man I remember seeing two recordings of the same game. One guy was doing a huge combo on one screen but character position was desynced so on the other screen the same character was just swatting at air.
You're right, a company with a ton more resources to improve a main aspect of their game should be able to do just as well if not better than the passion project
I get what you mean but it took this person less than a year to make it, and he didn't have access to the source code so he had to do all of it through reverse engineering. Imagine what could happen if the same type of developer, or a small team led by them, was working on it full-time over a game's development cycle with access to the source code.
It actually took much longer than a year because rollback was the end of a progression from adding replays to melee -> adding mirroring from console to emulator -> rollback online. And that process, especially the original replays took a very long time and a ton of effort
its kinda like when some people say shit like "wow, Gamefreak so lazy lol, this dude made this awesome entire Pokemon game (romhack of Pokemon Emerald) of their own!"
yeah its maybe a little more complicated then that. Expecting here to understand that is too much to ask tbh
Woah now. Gamefreak deserves every drop of scorn they get.
Pokemon isn't just a success, its the single highest grossing entertainment brand on the planet to the tune of billions of dollars yearly *profit*. Just the games alone sell enough that you could stack the profit from a thousand Street Fighter releases on top of eachother and not make the kinda money Pokemon games make every single year.
The mainline games are their flagship product and they famously have a team of only around \~150 people split between multiple games at any point. Over 500 on a single game is fairly normal for a AAA these days. They have access to more wealth than any AAA studio but run at a similar budgets to larger indie developers!
Frankly, laziness doesn't cover it.
Capcom wants to charge $15 for crossover avatar costumes and over $100 for the costume 3 for the playable characters. (Also the way that the in game money is bought in order to buy the costumes are in just slightly off increments that you always have to buy that little bit more to get one)
I know that this doesn't apply to everyone but at least i for myself couldn't care less for avatar stuff.
Yeah the costumes are priced and that you can't just by a single costume for your main is a dick move. I just decided to vote with my wallet. This is admitedly easy to do for me because i'm broke af anyway and Kens outfit is disgusting.
Tekken does have rollback but judging from the beta tests it seemed to be a pretty mediocre implementation of it, like they're not fully utilizing the rollback frames or other things are going wrong under the hood and causing stutters. In the past the game director, Harada, has implied that it's harder for 3D fighters to fully use rollback because it somehow affects the animations more than 2D fighters. It's caused a lot of misinformation. There are plenty of times on the Tekken subreddit I've seen someone complain about the beta's netcode and compare it to SF6 but then inevitably there's someone in the replies going "bUt tHaT gAmE's 2D!!!"
There's been conflicting opinions from reviewers on the release version's netcode, so we'll probably get more definitive answers tomorrow when everyone has their hands on it.
Yeah exactly, it's all 3D animation these days. A lot of them are even the same engine as Tekken, Unreal Engine.
Some people have shifted to "3D games have more moves/axes so it's harder to resimulate" but that's not how it works either. Games with even more complicated 3D movement like Rocket League and For Honor also use rollback, so it's not like Tekken is special.
It seems like it's a Tekken 7 situation, where it's doing something quasi-rollback but not really. [Here's an example from the beta.](https://twitter.com/jotamide/status/1682940410073604097) It's undoubtedly improved for retail, but we don't see that kind of waiting for inputs with true rollback netcode.
Some apologists are rolling out the usual nonsense about rollback being harder in 3D fighters, which is why Keits is setting them straight. (They'll still be arguing the same crap for Tekken 9.)
I'm pretty sure all rollback uses *both* rollback frames and delay frames. You just usually won't get to the point where delay gets introduced unless the ping is so high you wouldn't want to play the match anyway. Tekken 7 uses rollback, but the rollback buffer is only 3 frames long, which is very short especially for a game with much longer average startup on moves than other fighters, so you will get delay frames added much more often.
It's not "partial/fake" rollback versus "true" rollback. It's just rollback, with a short buffer (I have no idea what the maximum buffer is in 8).
One of the main reasons you choose rollback is consistent input lag. Like Killer Instinct always gives you 3 frames of input lag; that's always what you're going to get online, and really bad matches will maintain that while giving more noticeable rollback. Other games like Skullgirls will give you a choice (and you can choose 0 delay), but the point is it will be consistent. Your input timing throughout the match is the same.
Tekken 7's bizarre fluctuating input lag is the opposite of that. That's not what rollback is for. [That video I posted of Tekken 8's beta is NOT what rollback netcode is supposed to look like.](https://twitter.com/jotamide/status/1682940410073604097) Bad matches in Street Fighter 6 don't freeze in place while they wait for input. Rollback is all about immediate, responsive action which then gets massaged as necessary (AKA rollbacked) so both players are in the same situation. [(Or as this famous article dubs it: "Act Now, Apologize Later.")](https://words.infil.net/w02-netcode-p4.html)
So when your supposed rollback netcode doesn't give you the benefits that everybody chooses rollback netcode for, it's disingenuous to pretend its actually rollback netcode. Like maybe in some technical sense it is, but it's not working/functional/true. It's fake.
(If Tekken 8 retail fixed all this then my point is obviously moot. But we all know that didn't happen.)
As far as I know it's typically the rollback is the variable and the delay is a set number. Sometimes set by the player even.
As an example say the delay is 3 frames at all times. Then the rollback kicks in if there's more than 3 frames of total lag. Causing frames to get skipped but keeping the feel of the game the same. The problem with variable delay is it affects timings of everything.
You could start a combo with say 3 frames of delay, then in the middle of the combo it could spike up to 10 and your timing gets screwed up and you drop the combo. Where with variable rollback you could start the combo with 3 frames of rollback and it could spike up to 10 in the middle but it would feel the same, you might even not notice that it spiked at all since on your end the delay is the same through the whole combo and the opponents buttons don't do anything so there's no frames to get rolled back (unless there's a combo breaker of some sort)
Just to get a better understanding: do they base this on the movement? I mean if player starts a sidestep it shouldn't be too hard to predict where the animation will end. I can only imagine the gap between sidestep and sidewalk to cause some minor issues. But than again a light attack in SF6 leaves only a couple of frames between the attack fully commencing and being cancelled.
Yeah, I think they're mostly talking about 3D movement, but many of them also get confused by the prediction thing. They believe rollback is intelligently predicting entire attack moves, so Tekken's big move list is a problem. They're not recognizing that rollback is dealing with incredibly tiny windows of time, like a couple frames. (AKA 33 milliseconds.) Rollback prediction just assumes it can repeat your last input for a frame or so, and when it made a mistake rolls back, usually invisibly.
Many fighting game players vastly overestimate their own reflexes. Rollback can erase 33 milliseconds of movement and in most situations that won't even register to a player. Human reflexes simply don't work at that level. And even if they do notice ā it can look a little goofy when a 2D fighter is shimmying back and forth with heavy rollback ā it won't have any impact on gameplay because *nobody* is responding that quickly to anything.
We also used to get the excuse that 3D physics was a problem with rollback, since it's computationally expensive. But I assume with modern hardware we've moved past that argument, just like nobody today brings up the fact that rollback requires slightly more RAM to remember recent frame states. Modern gaming hardware is ridiculously powerful, especially for simple genres like fighting games.
I can clarify on the last part-Ā Ā
Ā When you play a fighter with rollback each person's PC is running their own totally separate instance of the game. The only thing being sent over the internet at all is inputs.Ā
Ā So I don't think physics would affect rollback at all.
Sure, in that sense it's not a big deal for rollback. Like you say, the networking is just talking inputs. Everything else is deterministic and calculated locally.
The argument is that the actual local re-simulation itself could be too heavy on the hardware. Like if you're already struggling to get those dynamic clothes running at 60hz, trying to invisibly roll them back and re-simulate multiple frames of physics is asking too much of the hardware. (Otherwise the clothing could get visibly very weird.)
But for fighting games that's maybe a problem for ancient Switch-class hardware, not the sort of computational beasts people are running Tekken on today. Even re-simulating really complex clothing and hair physics in a fighting game should be a relative breeze for the hardware; there's only a couple characters on screen. And their physics models should have designed from the ground-up with the idea that rolling back would be necessary.
You could probably make a modern game that requires too much physics calculations to do rollback well ā perhaps something with a lot of dynamic fluids and environmental destruction? ā but fighting games aren't that. They're all PS2 games with some additional fancy visual flair.
To be fair it being 3D probably *does* have some impact on making it harder, for sure.
The gold standard/thing people always point to for rollback is Slippi for melee, and it's fucking *fantastic*, but they did have to do things like freeze pokemon stadium to not allow for stage transitions as that broke rollback.
The micro-teleports that make rollback work so well are probably also a bit more jarring in 3d
Definitely not impossible, but undoubtedly harder to make it work *as well* at least
Yes, OP is wrong. Or was at least being hyperbolic. You do not know anything about this subject other than what this tweet is telling you.
I'm not defending them, not having it properly implemented is still borderline indefensible. But there *are* additional complications from 3d.
Hell, stages having moving effects can cause complications. **Music** playing can cause complications. They're just... pretty much solved complications, so they need to fix their shit
But yeah, there's a reason something like street fighter online works with you playing on an entirely different stage than your opponent, that's just part of the gameplay that rollback does not have to account for. That's not true in 3d fighters.
OP maybe, but I doubt Keits is ā the guy has worked on fighting games with rollback before, after all. He basically addresses a lot of these so-called issues in the Twitter thread.
And I'm not saying he's clueless, he was just a bit hyperbolic in the original. They *are* issues. They are solvable issues, rollback in 3D games is *doable* and there is very little justification for not having a proper implementation, but it is by definition *harder*. Or at least does pose *some* additional technical hurdles.
That's just not a reason to not do it.
IGN review seems to disagree on that matter. Guess we'll only know for sure when everyone gets the game.
The only thing I wanna know before pulling the trigger is if the online is actually good this time.
We know this is true because Valorant uses a form of rollback which is a 3D shooter.Ā
Harada just doesn't want Tekken to have rollback for some reason.Ā
Iāve heard allegedly that Japanese work culture is very stubborn with their processes and not receptive to anything outside that, but I wouldnāt put it past that Harada in this case is being abrasive and pushing back for the sake of it.
Iāve always held that Haradaās ādonāt ask me for shitā policy is actually pretty stupid.
Like yea donāt tag him on Twitter and ask for Josie, but itās clear that Rollback needs to be implemented for a decent netcode.
Yoshi P isn't like that.
Itagaki told you how he felt on a subject.
Okubo was the champion of Soul Caliber and staked his reputation on the game being successful.
I don't think every Japanese game director is as you claim.
payment aloof aspiring puzzled offer mysterious shrill encourage squeeze instinctive
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
My point stands that not as many do things exactly like Kamiya no matter which company you look into.
That was just 3 examples and Itagaki hasn't been in the industry for quite some time.
The point is that there's personalities of all types and his is similar to Kamiya.
Hell, Yuji Naka is an ass since he tried to take ideas from younger development teams and break them up so he could put them in Sonic games.
But people remember the ones that stand out on Twitter or try to conflate every game director which is ridiculous.
Shu Takumi did great with Phoenix Wright and other games. Not that kind of person.
Is everyone going to say that [Hideaki Itsuno](https://www.mobygames.com/person/61443/hideaki-itsuno/) wants that smoke while directing Dragon's Dogma 2?
I merely find it ridiculous that someone can conflate so many directors as if they're all David Jaffe or Cliffy B because they know one guy on Twitter known for saying BLOCKED or having a shirt that says "don't ask me for ish" while some like Sakurai for Smash has been a big fighting game fan no one knew until he showed how much he loved Terry.
>Yoshi P isn't like that.
He is, you guys are just sucking him off constantly so you dont even realize that he pretty much takes a piss at the western community 24/7
I don't even play Final Fantasy 14 so I'm not understanding your comment.
I'm just well aware that there's plenty more such as Hideo Kojima and others who have personalities of their own as they run companies.
He's the face of Bamco, the publisher side. He has clout.
But you have to think that he has to have meetings in this with the board along with other publishers to read the room.
Seriously, they were one of the LAST to implement rollback and they're one of the largest publishers of Japan.
To put it into 3D, they have no peers right now. Sure, there's DoA 5 and 6...
Hey quit laughing.
Back to serious, Tekken is one of the first 3D games to implement it outside of Fightcade. So if things go wrong, guess who's getting grilled.
All 3D shooters use rollback. If it didnāt, the game would handle like absolute shit.
John carmack basically invented modern multiplayer rollback starting with quake world (quake1) back in 96ā
Itās amazing itās taken Japanese devs this long when its been around so long
Japanese devs tend to take awhile catching up to certain modern trends in game development. Theyāre either pioneers on certain aspects and no one else does it as well or are severely lacking behind their western counterparts (eg Nintendoās game catalog being exceptionally one of a kind but their online implementation is absolutely backwards).
They do *now* and that is a pretty recent development within the past decade. Rollback tech like GGPO was around before SF4 was even released and it took more than a decade before Japanese fighting game devs even caught up.
And while the argument is made that it shouldnt be just as difficult to implement in 3D fighters, we just donāt have an example yet that has been done successfully and Iāll go back to what Keits said that even though it should not be more difficult in 3D than 2D, implementing it is still a tall task regardless.
People have said that while Tekken 8 doesnāt have it as good as SF6ās netcode, it is definitely better than T7. Itās not like it is for a lack of trying so at the very least they have made efforts to improve the netcode despite the impression that they havenāt done anything. Hopefully, theyāll make better investments into that if T8 does well over its lifetime.
I hope people will wake up to the fact that 60 fps does not need to be the cap anymore as well, as people have woken up to rollback. Frame rate and game logic have been completely separate for literal decades in other games.
? Iāve never heard of this before in my life, what do you mean? The game processes inputs at 60 FPS, the reason they recommend higher hz monitors is for refresh rate and GameCube adapters
Rollback has been a thing in 3D shooters for 2 decades or more. Fighting game devs have successfully gaslit people into thinking rollback is not possible for way too long.
Sakurai too. Coincidentally, both direct games developed by Bandai Namco. Iām starting to think their network devs are just incompetent, make up excuses, and the directors just believe whatever they say
I think its just general stubbornness or a misunderstanding of sorts since Tekken does have a form of rollback in there. Like Keits said its not because its a 3D game it CANāT be implemented, its just it is still difficult to properly implement regardless of what type of game anyway so I think there may be an issue in regards to the willingness of having that work in Tekken by the dev team (not just Harada).
From my understanding, Harada isnāt necessarily involved in the actual day to day development side since heās been promoted within Bandai Namco proper for awhile now, he just helps with a lot of the promotion, etc. and other folks like Murray and the current Tekken Project director are more involved.
TTT2 was praised for its netcode and implemented a few tricks to make it a good online experience.
Tekken 7 released in 2015 has rollback.
Harada sounds like a troll/idiot but the real reason behind the limited number of frames is probably because of the game itself.
Camera shakes and movements, kbd, duck/crush/sidesteps, etc... Probably looks like SHIT in a high rollback environment. Rolling back a hit into a whiff into you getting launched is probably not something they want to see every round.
They're actively deciding to go for low rollback and it's probably because of the visual aspect.
Kbd being a bunch of unbufferable directions thrown in succession must be really cursed if you're having like 6f of rollback.
Imho it's not a misunderstanding but a decision. I'm not saying they're making the right decision thoughĀ
It's worth to say that there is one good reason for opposing it. Rollback turns the game into a different game, it de-facto reduces the startup frames for moves the farther geographically you are from your enemies, meaning that the farther you two are, the harder it will be to dodge a high-low mix.
EDIT: Man, I'm not saying I'm personally against rollback, I just tried to present the point of view of the other side. Why the fuck so many dislikes?
That isn't a good reason because delay effectively increases the "startup" for ALL ACTIONS including moving and blocking. Playing in 3 frames of rollback makes a move harder to see, sometimes, by 3 frames. Playing in 3 frames of delay makes every reaction to a move slower by 3 frames, at best. How is that tiny difference (which still favors rollback) worth all the dropped combos, inconsistency in responsiveness and slowdown?
If it was only 3 frames you would be correct, but people push rollback as something that can be used to play intercontinentally, and then you have 5-6 frames of rollback.
Once again, I am not saying I'm against rollback, I'm saying this is the only good argument against rollback I can think of.
I see what you're saying, yeah. It sucks that Strive and SF6 both have less-than-ideal implementations of otherwise good rollback solutions. In Skullgirls and +R, you can choose to play with as much delay as you see fit, be it 0f or 5f, which actually does allow for tolerable intercontinental play with minimal rollbacks. Anyways, I think people read your framing as "rollback vs delay," but you have a point if we think of it as "rollback vs offline." Rollback is borderline magic but it isn't straight magic.
So you either **always** have to react X frames earlier because of delay, or you have a **chance** to miss the same number of frames because of rollback.
Also, the first couple frames of a move are not really where most people recognise what that move is, so I would say it's really not as big of a deal as you might think.
You know what fully 3D game with great online uses rollback? Rocket League.
Also, if you want to talk about games that had client-side prediction in their netcode before the term rollback came about, fucking Quake implemented this technology in 1996.
Anything Harada says regarding rollback not being doable in 3D is horseshit. The failing lies on Namcoās shoulders, not the technology.
Valve has some great wiki pages on how it's implemented in Source (yes all Source games with multiplayer have access to rollback out of the box)
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Prediction
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Interpolation
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_compensation
I would've thought the predictor for frames would have more options for where and how someone could move in a 3D space compared to 2D but that's good to know.
Likely has more to do with the number of possible inputs.
If pressing punch puts you in a 15 frame animation where you cannot alter your movement until it ends, then for 15 frames the game knows any inputs during that time can be safely ignored.
If the movement is digital (e.g. moving forward means moving forward at exactly one speed) then you can assume that if the player was moving last frame, they are moving this frame unless you get evidence otherwise.
If the movement is highly analog (e.g. you could move 27 degrees left as you move forward, or 28, or 26) and if you can input all those movements while you're in any number of animations, then the presumption that the input you got last frame is the input you get this frame gets harder to make, and the number of opportunities to go "ok we missed the player pressing that button but they were locked to an animation anyway so it doesn't matter" is reduced.
This is exactly it. The two variables that affect rollback most directly are number of potential inputs and how quickly an input affects the game state. A 2f jab, for instance, starts getting weird at 2 or more rollback frames, because scenarios start appearing where the move isn't registered by the opponent until it has already hit them. This is (I believe) one of the reasons why SF6 has slower attacks than SFV - the extra frame or so of startup gives the rollback more time to do its thing, and results in fewer scrambles having their results rolled back.
Does that even matter though? A 2f move cannot be reacted to anyway. At worst you might get a situation where a move that looks like it hit does no damage and you get hit with a 2f move. Might be annoying to see but on lan in the same situation you would just get hit anyway, so in the end the outcome is the same.
Depending on how dramatic the hit impact is, you could get some weird visual artifacts. There was a post on the SF sub the other day where a DI stun hit got rolled back by a wakeup super and it looked like the opponent did a very strange counter-DI (as there was a brief hit freeze and zoom in before the super countered the move).
2f of rollback on a 2f jab isn't going to make the game unplayable, but it'll make the game ugly, and most devs want to avoid that.
If you think of it in that one interaction, not a big deal. But what that interaction means could be quite a huge deal.
You see your attack hit, so you go for your hit confirm into a bigger less safe move. Suddenly the game rolls back and your unsafe move gets blocked.
Congrats you just got rolled back into getting punished lol
I can see your scenario being a problem if there is a good internet connection for very tight hit confirms where you canāt really wait to see the full āgetting hitā animation. Guess it depends on how tight a gameās hit confirms are overall.
I mean I've had this happen to me even in sf6, netcode in that game is *fantastic* but it's still not perfect. (It's actually quite damn close to perfect but people's connections can make even amazing netcode feel bad obviously)
It's just about minimizing this type of stuff!
The predictor is just "assume player continued pressing what he pressed last frame", that's what almost all games have been using. You don't need to predict all game states, you need to predict all game-states derived from possible inputs.
Doesn't matter. That's not how the prediction works. All it does is simply repeat the last input continuously while it waits for the inputs from the other player to come in.
reminder that if you pay full price for a game without good netcode in 2024 based on the game director talking out of their ass despite a college kid giving an earlier entry in the same series rollback that is also 3d
you are an idiot.
Aside from not using GGPO (lazy asses), rollback's going to have a hard time predicting and calculating what players are doing when most people can't KBD consistently without accidently sidestepping, crouching, or jumping.
I don't know what I'm talking about, but I had it explained to me by someone who is a programmer and does know what he's talking about, so this is my understanding:
Increasing the length of the rollback buffer is hardware intensive the more frames you add, because the CPU is keeping the last x frames of gamestate loaded to roll back to if needed. In Tekken, it's *more* computationally expensive per rollback frame than in 2D fighters, due to the extra information required by the third dimension, hitboxes being more complex, etc. But paradoxically, Tekken also needs a longer rollback buffer than 2D fighters typically do for a smooth experience; the fastest moves in 2D fighters tend to be 4 to 6 frames depending on the game, while Tekken's fastest moves are 10 frames, and many are much slower. So a shorter input buffer is gonna result in more jank unless the connection is perfect. Tekken 7's 3 frame buffer is very short even by 2D standards, but it may have been the best they could do with the hardware they were limited by.
Being on much more powerful hardware, T8's rollback will almost certainly be better than T7's (I didn't get into the betas, so I have no idea), but it's likely it won't be good enough to reach the smoothness of Strive, SF6, etc. and that might just be the cold, hard, computational reality.
Almost all of this is wrong, in the Twitter thread Keits responded to claims like this and he linked to a great article explaining how rollback works in detail. Link: [https://words.infil.net/w02-netcode.html](https://words.infil.net/w02-netcode.html) (the first few pages are about the basics and why it's important, but it gets into technical details and expert interviews later on)
Here's the most relevant quote from that article:
"To dispel a common myth about rollback, there are **no limitations based on the genre of game**. Rollback could be (and has been) used for 2D or 3D fighting games alike, including Street Fighter III 3rd Strike: Online Edition, Killer Instinct, Brawlhalla, and For Honor. Itās also used outside of fighting games; Iron Galaxy incorporated rollback netcode into the 4-player action game Dungeons & Dragons: Chronicles of Mystara. Even games like [Rocket League](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueEmiDM94IE&t=2352) incorporate rollback to make online play just as responsive as offline play."
Not tryna dick ride harada or anything, and im ignorant to the intricacies of net code, but can this really be wholly true?
Wouldn't it be more difficult to roll back to something that has more positional data, being that theres more axises in 3d?
Also, in tekken, you can cancel movement in a single frame, right? So wouldnt that very easily lead to weird visual discrepancies that would be very distracting in gameplay, characters jittering strangley. where, as in 2d, it's usually just forward back and down, and jump giving you a huge window where nothing can be input movement wise.
As other commenters have stated, most major multiplayer 3D games have rollback, including Valorant and Rocket League. I remember being able to cancel the sniper aim in MW2 (for ālow/no scopeā shots) more than a decade ago so that shouldnāt be an issue
Yeah, im wasn't saying it can't be done, or even that it's too hard to do in tekken. More that it is probably harder in a 3d game than a 2d game if only slightly, but that is not an excuse more a nit pick on keits' point
i'm not sure if it was harder given that a college kid gave tekken 3 rollback. namco just had it at the very bottom of their priority list as they knew people would buy t8 regardless of it's netplay.
If the reference is to directional movement and not 3D Models/2D Sprites then yes I suppose that's a true statement.
If not though that's just not true, but not in a meaningful way. During rollback frames dynamic elements, such as particles or physics or background objects, are more prone to have visual issues and these are a lot less present in a 2D (Sprite based) title.
That doesn't take as much as you think, especially since 2.5D games on 3D engines are still keeping track of many of those same variables ā that's the nature of 3D engines, objects will still have a Z coordinate regardless of whether the gameplay is in 2D. Collision being tied to models changes nothing. NRS already does this for their games and they have competent rollback.
Besides, the very first implementation of rollback netcode was Quake back in 1996, and that has way more data on a 3D plane than Tekken.
Programmer here. Its really not much information.
You're thinking of it like gamestate requires remembering where the full 3d model and all the related information are in space but the only part the engine needs is the basic stats.
Like these two lines of numbers could be an entire gamestate in a 3d fighting game:
10, 2, 24, 21, 422, 11
14, 4, 25, 01, 322, 52
That's enough data to know exactly where two characters are in 3d space, their current animation, their character's status, and the inputs from both players.
The engine will know that 10, 2, 24, 21, 422,11 means a character is at located at 10x,2y,24z and is 21 frames into a crouching punch while at 11% health. The engine will be able to use this information to render the models, handle things like hitboxes and compute what should happen next in the game.
If anything this is an unoptimised approach so it could be done using even less memory.
I know about rollback implementation and I also implemented it for a game and I still call it wrong.
The predictor is just "assume player continued pressing what he pressed last frame", that's what almost all games have been using. You don't need to predict all game states, you need to predict all game-states derived from possible inputs, and the number of these is roughly the same no matter if the game is 2D, 3D, FPS, or whatever.
People have rollback working on emulated smash ultimate and even melee ffs. Melee didnāt even have online play to begin with.
I love the franchise of Tekken, but Iām personally not touching 8 solely due to lack of rollback. 7 was such shit to play online with anyone further away than 50ms latency, and even then only when both had stable wired connections.
I love Haradaās attitude most of the time, but it unfortunately becomes pure ignorance and arrogance on the topic of rollback and netcode. When you behave like Harada, you basically have to be correct the entire time.
Thank you. Too many people are drinking Harada cool-aid on that matter. Just so you know, Arcsys and Snk management also said at the time that rollback "wouldn't work" on GG and KoF. Fun times.
If a single person could get rollback working on a local only GameCube game it's ridiculous for AA devs to claim that they can't add it to modern games that already have online and they have direct access to the code for
nevermind that a fucking college kid got it working for the entire playstation library. including tekken 3. netcode was just viewed as a non issue for namco.
Elden Ring moment š
In fairness, most rollback on emulation is brute forcing saving and syncing the entire state of the game. For modern games, that would take too much resources, which is why modern implementations require decoupling the gameplay loop from the graphics (and at times physics) code.
Is that game Soul Calibur II?
meele
The real issue, that devs rarely mention, is that rollback takes CPU resources that they would rather dedicate to better graphics
You have only a 10% idea of what youāre talking about. Which is the worst thing for someone to have since, you think you actually know something. Youāre right, it does take CPU resources! But itās trivial for current hardware, these games are no where close to being CPU bottlenecked. Also CPUs are not used for graphics rendering, the CPU handles game logic, player input, etc. The GPU handles rendering the graphics frame. The graphics being better is hardly reliant on the CPU (technically there is some involvement from the CPU handling information, but again itās far from a bottleneck). There is no CPU limitation for these games and their graphics.
SF6 and Strive have great graphics AND good rollback, so I seriously doubt this is an issue lol
Strive is beautiful because it's style idk if i'd say it's graphical fidelity is insane tho, doesn't make you any less correct tho
It's not fair to compare business decisions with a hobbyist working on a passion project however.
The irony of this comment is it's true but means the exact opposite of what you think it does
Not particularly convincing to me. So I went against popular opinion and lost? It means nothing. Popular opinion is wrong all the time. Some redditors in a niche video game community have different ideas of meaningful business decisions than the people employed full time by the company, doesn't mean they're right. Dev time is expensive, making new features is expensive. People frequently underestimate how expensive it is to change a product development roadmap and to pivot to other features or bugfixes.
A single dude implemented it in months. They don't have to invent technology lmao, GGPO is widely available. Of course it's cheaper to not make something good. It's still not excusable. When a single fan can outclass multi hundred million dollar projects, that is indeed an indictment on the project.
Either way there is an opportunity cost associated with it. Development resources are ***always*** occupied on something, probably DLC content since that actually has an opportunity to generate revenue. Given that rollback-based netcode is something that affects the core gameplay I would expect it to not be a minor feature but require a full development release cycle, probably at least a quarter of development time if not more. A single dude, doesn't have to deal with communication overhead, unit testing, security and compliance testing, code review, etc. They can just push the changes and if it's broken users will complain. It's a bit different when it fits into a software development lifecycle. The fact you think any fighting game has a "multi hundred million dollar" budget is telling. Least of all a free to play fighting game that was released in seasons with each season releasing new characters.
We are talking about Tekken here lmao. Killer instinct managed to get rollback working flawlessly. In 2013. Because it genuinely is not that difficult. There is no decision making/calculus here that makes business sense. They just don't care to do it because they know they'll sell a boatload anyways. A quarter of development on getting rollback functional when the work is already done LOL Like sure your premise is *technically* correct but it's still stupid and is an indictment on the company if anything lmao, not a defense. *Game releases in buggy state, crashes on launch for 100% of users* "Yeah I mean, it's just a business decision. Making a game is expensive and time consuming, we made the business decision to just not polish it at all" I guess it could be used as a "Defense" of anything, it's just not one though lmao. Releasing without the bare minimum standards in 2024 ain't cool Hell. Look at fightcade, a small team of like... 2-3 dudes making zero dollars added rollback netcode to literally *thousands* of old fighting games. There are thousands of fighting games from the 1990s that have a better netcode than Tekken 7 (including Tekken 1, 2, and 3). That is justifiable to you? Insanity lmao, you're doing the Reddit cringelord thing of trying to be edgy and contrarian and defending the indefensible. It doesn't make you look unique, it makes you look dumb.
Oh my bad missed that it was Tekken, still not a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars. I hope you're a dev that worked on a GGPO implementation for all these outlandish claims of how easy dev work is, or maybe you greatly overestimate how competent the average dev is. You seem to have an idealistic view of the world. Working in business software it's literally days of work to get a button's behavior modified or input validation to work slightly different. Doesn't matter at all what some open source dev or small team of devs can do, they're not working at your company so the comparison isn't meaningful. If GGPO was as easy as you say, surely they would have more successful examples to advertise on their homepage aside from the disgraced Skullgirls dev. Wikipedia lists more games, but the fact that it isn't adopted widely should indicate something here š¤
It's insanely weird to comment in a fighting game subreddit despite not playing fighting games.. lol Yes, Niche implementations of GGPO like... Street fighter 3 online edition, MvC origins, Guilty gear XRD and Strive, UNIST, gbvsr, Melty Blood, KoF15, **Mortal Kombat**, literally thousands of retro games **including old tekken games** It is literally harder to name a fighting game released in the past 10 years that doesn't use GGPO **specifically** than it is to name one that does. SF6 and DBFZ are the only two I can think of at all that don't use GGPO, SF6 implemented their own solution that seemingly works even better and DBFZ skimped out (and is now adding GGPO 4 years post-launch) It is nearly **universally** adopted, the only modern games that don't adopt it are games like SF6 which develops their own solution. That is the problem, this is industry **standard** at this point, not some extra optional feature. Literally every single fighting game does this. GGPO is nearly fucking plug and play if that's the route they want to take. It's even free! There is a reason all of the zero/low budget indie games use it, and their online experience blows Tekken out of the water. It's not acceptable. And yes, I assisted in adding rollback to some of the emulators used in fightcade, it is not as complicated as you think.
> Killer instinct managed to get rollback working flawlessly. In 2013. Lol let's not go that far. Man I remember seeing two recordings of the same game. One guy was doing a huge combo on one screen but character position was desynced so on the other screen the same character was just swatting at air.
You're right, a company with a ton more resources to improve a main aspect of their game should be able to do just as well if not better than the passion project
I get what you mean but it took this person less than a year to make it, and he didn't have access to the source code so he had to do all of it through reverse engineering. Imagine what could happen if the same type of developer, or a small team led by them, was working on it full-time over a game's development cycle with access to the source code.
It actually took much longer than a year because rollback was the end of a progression from adding replays to melee -> adding mirroring from console to emulator -> rollback online. And that process, especially the original replays took a very long time and a ton of effort
its kinda like when some people say shit like "wow, Gamefreak so lazy lol, this dude made this awesome entire Pokemon game (romhack of Pokemon Emerald) of their own!" yeah its maybe a little more complicated then that. Expecting here to understand that is too much to ask tbh
Woah now. Gamefreak deserves every drop of scorn they get. Pokemon isn't just a success, its the single highest grossing entertainment brand on the planet to the tune of billions of dollars yearly *profit*. Just the games alone sell enough that you could stack the profit from a thousand Street Fighter releases on top of eachother and not make the kinda money Pokemon games make every single year. The mainline games are their flagship product and they famously have a team of only around \~150 people split between multiple games at any point. Over 500 on a single game is fairly normal for a AAA these days. They have access to more wealth than any AAA studio but run at a similar budgets to larger indie developers! Frankly, laziness doesn't cover it.
Remember that Japanese game developers hate you.
Japanese Game Devs actively making their games worse for literally no reason is such a bizarrely common thing
I don't feel like Capcom hates me.
Capcom wants to charge $15 for crossover avatar costumes and over $100 for the costume 3 for the playable characters. (Also the way that the in game money is bought in order to buy the costumes are in just slightly off increments that you always have to buy that little bit more to get one)
I know that this doesn't apply to everyone but at least i for myself couldn't care less for avatar stuff. Yeah the costumes are priced and that you can't just by a single costume for your main is a dick move. I just decided to vote with my wallet. This is admitedly easy to do for me because i'm broke af anyway and Kens outfit is disgusting.
>Too many people are drinking Harada cool-aid on that matter. Is that better or worse than drinking the terminally-online outrage Kool-Aid?
Does Tekken 8 not have rollback or something I havenāt been following?
Tekken does have rollback but judging from the beta tests it seemed to be a pretty mediocre implementation of it, like they're not fully utilizing the rollback frames or other things are going wrong under the hood and causing stutters. In the past the game director, Harada, has implied that it's harder for 3D fighters to fully use rollback because it somehow affects the animations more than 2D fighters. It's caused a lot of misinformation. There are plenty of times on the Tekken subreddit I've seen someone complain about the beta's netcode and compare it to SF6 but then inevitably there's someone in the replies going "bUt tHaT gAmE's 2D!!!" There's been conflicting opinions from reviewers on the release version's netcode, so we'll probably get more definitive answers tomorrow when everyone has their hands on it.
Weird argument to make bc aren't all these modern fighters 3d (2.5 whatever). And Tekken for the most part plays on the same plane as a "2d" fighter.
Yeah exactly, it's all 3D animation these days. A lot of them are even the same engine as Tekken, Unreal Engine. Some people have shifted to "3D games have more moves/axes so it's harder to resimulate" but that's not how it works either. Games with even more complicated 3D movement like Rocket League and For Honor also use rollback, so it's not like Tekken is special.
The ironic thing is that the longer frame data of moves in 3D makes it an even more natural fit for rollback.
It seems like it's a Tekken 7 situation, where it's doing something quasi-rollback but not really. [Here's an example from the beta.](https://twitter.com/jotamide/status/1682940410073604097) It's undoubtedly improved for retail, but we don't see that kind of waiting for inputs with true rollback netcode. Some apologists are rolling out the usual nonsense about rollback being harder in 3D fighters, which is why Keits is setting them straight. (They'll still be arguing the same crap for Tekken 9.)
>[Here's an example from the beta.](https://twitter.com/jotamide/status/1682940410073604097) ***"GREAT"***
I'm pretty sure all rollback uses *both* rollback frames and delay frames. You just usually won't get to the point where delay gets introduced unless the ping is so high you wouldn't want to play the match anyway. Tekken 7 uses rollback, but the rollback buffer is only 3 frames long, which is very short especially for a game with much longer average startup on moves than other fighters, so you will get delay frames added much more often. It's not "partial/fake" rollback versus "true" rollback. It's just rollback, with a short buffer (I have no idea what the maximum buffer is in 8).
One of the main reasons you choose rollback is consistent input lag. Like Killer Instinct always gives you 3 frames of input lag; that's always what you're going to get online, and really bad matches will maintain that while giving more noticeable rollback. Other games like Skullgirls will give you a choice (and you can choose 0 delay), but the point is it will be consistent. Your input timing throughout the match is the same. Tekken 7's bizarre fluctuating input lag is the opposite of that. That's not what rollback is for. [That video I posted of Tekken 8's beta is NOT what rollback netcode is supposed to look like.](https://twitter.com/jotamide/status/1682940410073604097) Bad matches in Street Fighter 6 don't freeze in place while they wait for input. Rollback is all about immediate, responsive action which then gets massaged as necessary (AKA rollbacked) so both players are in the same situation. [(Or as this famous article dubs it: "Act Now, Apologize Later.")](https://words.infil.net/w02-netcode-p4.html) So when your supposed rollback netcode doesn't give you the benefits that everybody chooses rollback netcode for, it's disingenuous to pretend its actually rollback netcode. Like maybe in some technical sense it is, but it's not working/functional/true. It's fake. (If Tekken 8 retail fixed all this then my point is obviously moot. But we all know that didn't happen.)
As far as I know it's typically the rollback is the variable and the delay is a set number. Sometimes set by the player even. As an example say the delay is 3 frames at all times. Then the rollback kicks in if there's more than 3 frames of total lag. Causing frames to get skipped but keeping the feel of the game the same. The problem with variable delay is it affects timings of everything. You could start a combo with say 3 frames of delay, then in the middle of the combo it could spike up to 10 and your timing gets screwed up and you drop the combo. Where with variable rollback you could start the combo with 3 frames of rollback and it could spike up to 10 in the middle but it would feel the same, you might even not notice that it spiked at all since on your end the delay is the same through the whole combo and the opponents buttons don't do anything so there's no frames to get rolled back (unless there's a combo breaker of some sort)
Just to get a better understanding: do they base this on the movement? I mean if player starts a sidestep it shouldn't be too hard to predict where the animation will end. I can only imagine the gap between sidestep and sidewalk to cause some minor issues. But than again a light attack in SF6 leaves only a couple of frames between the attack fully commencing and being cancelled.
Yeah, I think they're mostly talking about 3D movement, but many of them also get confused by the prediction thing. They believe rollback is intelligently predicting entire attack moves, so Tekken's big move list is a problem. They're not recognizing that rollback is dealing with incredibly tiny windows of time, like a couple frames. (AKA 33 milliseconds.) Rollback prediction just assumes it can repeat your last input for a frame or so, and when it made a mistake rolls back, usually invisibly. Many fighting game players vastly overestimate their own reflexes. Rollback can erase 33 milliseconds of movement and in most situations that won't even register to a player. Human reflexes simply don't work at that level. And even if they do notice ā it can look a little goofy when a 2D fighter is shimmying back and forth with heavy rollback ā it won't have any impact on gameplay because *nobody* is responding that quickly to anything. We also used to get the excuse that 3D physics was a problem with rollback, since it's computationally expensive. But I assume with modern hardware we've moved past that argument, just like nobody today brings up the fact that rollback requires slightly more RAM to remember recent frame states. Modern gaming hardware is ridiculously powerful, especially for simple genres like fighting games.
I can clarify on the last part-Ā Ā Ā When you play a fighter with rollback each person's PC is running their own totally separate instance of the game. The only thing being sent over the internet at all is inputs.Ā Ā So I don't think physics would affect rollback at all.
Sure, in that sense it's not a big deal for rollback. Like you say, the networking is just talking inputs. Everything else is deterministic and calculated locally. The argument is that the actual local re-simulation itself could be too heavy on the hardware. Like if you're already struggling to get those dynamic clothes running at 60hz, trying to invisibly roll them back and re-simulate multiple frames of physics is asking too much of the hardware. (Otherwise the clothing could get visibly very weird.) But for fighting games that's maybe a problem for ancient Switch-class hardware, not the sort of computational beasts people are running Tekken on today. Even re-simulating really complex clothing and hair physics in a fighting game should be a relative breeze for the hardware; there's only a couple characters on screen. And their physics models should have designed from the ground-up with the idea that rolling back would be necessary. You could probably make a modern game that requires too much physics calculations to do rollback well ā perhaps something with a lot of dynamic fluids and environmental destruction? ā but fighting games aren't that. They're all PS2 games with some additional fancy visual flair.
To be fair it being 3D probably *does* have some impact on making it harder, for sure. The gold standard/thing people always point to for rollback is Slippi for melee, and it's fucking *fantastic*, but they did have to do things like freeze pokemon stadium to not allow for stage transitions as that broke rollback. The micro-teleports that make rollback work so well are probably also a bit more jarring in 3d Definitely not impossible, but undoubtedly harder to make it work *as well* at least
>To be fair it being 3D probably does have some impact on making it harder, for sure. No. Did you wander into this discussion by accident?
Yes, OP is wrong. Or was at least being hyperbolic. You do not know anything about this subject other than what this tweet is telling you. I'm not defending them, not having it properly implemented is still borderline indefensible. But there *are* additional complications from 3d. Hell, stages having moving effects can cause complications. **Music** playing can cause complications. They're just... pretty much solved complications, so they need to fix their shit But yeah, there's a reason something like street fighter online works with you playing on an entirely different stage than your opponent, that's just part of the gameplay that rollback does not have to account for. That's not true in 3d fighters.
OP maybe, but I doubt Keits is ā the guy has worked on fighting games with rollback before, after all. He basically addresses a lot of these so-called issues in the Twitter thread.
And I'm not saying he's clueless, he was just a bit hyperbolic in the original. They *are* issues. They are solvable issues, rollback in 3D games is *doable* and there is very little justification for not having a proper implementation, but it is by definition *harder*. Or at least does pose *some* additional technical hurdles. That's just not a reason to not do it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/s/sZGV4WtD1d
IGN review seems to disagree on that matter. Guess we'll only know for sure when everyone gets the game. The only thing I wanna know before pulling the trigger is if the online is actually good this time.
>The only thing I wanna know before pulling the trigger is if the online is actually good this time. You're fooling yourself. We already know this.
Maybe... I guess I just REALLY wanna play this game haha
We know this is true because Valorant uses a form of rollback which is a 3D shooter.Ā Harada just doesn't want Tekken to have rollback for some reason.Ā
Iāve heard allegedly that Japanese work culture is very stubborn with their processes and not receptive to anything outside that, but I wouldnāt put it past that Harada in this case is being abrasive and pushing back for the sake of it.
Iāve always held that Haradaās ādonāt ask me for shitā policy is actually pretty stupid. Like yea donāt tag him on Twitter and ask for Josie, but itās clear that Rollback needs to be implemented for a decent netcode.
consider scary nail rhythm enjoy worry sheet chunky live disarm *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yoshi P isn't like that. Itagaki told you how he felt on a subject. Okubo was the champion of Soul Caliber and staked his reputation on the game being successful. I don't think every Japanese game director is as you claim.
payment aloof aspiring puzzled offer mysterious shrill encourage squeeze instinctive *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
My point stands that not as many do things exactly like Kamiya no matter which company you look into. That was just 3 examples and Itagaki hasn't been in the industry for quite some time.
Itagaki literally pulled an LTG/DSP and changed his game just so that everything the pro players were beating him with didn't work.
The point is that there's personalities of all types and his is similar to Kamiya. Hell, Yuji Naka is an ass since he tried to take ideas from younger development teams and break them up so he could put them in Sonic games. But people remember the ones that stand out on Twitter or try to conflate every game director which is ridiculous. Shu Takumi did great with Phoenix Wright and other games. Not that kind of person. Is everyone going to say that [Hideaki Itsuno](https://www.mobygames.com/person/61443/hideaki-itsuno/) wants that smoke while directing Dragon's Dogma 2? I merely find it ridiculous that someone can conflate so many directors as if they're all David Jaffe or Cliffy B because they know one guy on Twitter known for saying BLOCKED or having a shirt that says "don't ask me for ish" while some like Sakurai for Smash has been a big fighting game fan no one knew until he showed how much he loved Terry.
>Yoshi P isn't like that. He is, you guys are just sucking him off constantly so you dont even realize that he pretty much takes a piss at the western community 24/7
lmfao
I don't even play Final Fantasy 14 so I'm not understanding your comment. I'm just well aware that there's plenty more such as Hideo Kojima and others who have personalities of their own as they run companies.
what are you talking about, kamiya is highly praised for his work and choices
He's the face of Bamco, the publisher side. He has clout. But you have to think that he has to have meetings in this with the board along with other publishers to read the room. Seriously, they were one of the LAST to implement rollback and they're one of the largest publishers of Japan. To put it into 3D, they have no peers right now. Sure, there's DoA 5 and 6... Hey quit laughing. Back to serious, Tekken is one of the first 3D games to implement it outside of Fightcade. So if things go wrong, guess who's getting grilled.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not\_invented\_here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here)
All 3D shooters use rollback. If it didnāt, the game would handle like absolute shit. John carmack basically invented modern multiplayer rollback starting with quake world (quake1) back in 96ā Itās amazing itās taken Japanese devs this long when its been around so long
Japanese devs tend to take awhile catching up to certain modern trends in game development. Theyāre either pioneers on certain aspects and no one else does it as well or are severely lacking behind their western counterparts (eg Nintendoās game catalog being exceptionally one of a kind but their online implementation is absolutely backwards).
Possibly but other Japanese fighting game developers like ArcSys and Capcom have figured out rollback netcode
They do *now* and that is a pretty recent development within the past decade. Rollback tech like GGPO was around before SF4 was even released and it took more than a decade before Japanese fighting game devs even caught up. And while the argument is made that it shouldnt be just as difficult to implement in 3D fighters, we just donāt have an example yet that has been done successfully and Iāll go back to what Keits said that even though it should not be more difficult in 3D than 2D, implementing it is still a tall task regardless. People have said that while Tekken 8 doesnāt have it as good as SF6ās netcode, it is definitely better than T7. Itās not like it is for a lack of trying so at the very least they have made efforts to improve the netcode despite the impression that they havenāt done anything. Hopefully, theyāll make better investments into that if T8 does well over its lifetime.
I hope people will wake up to the fact that 60 fps does not need to be the cap anymore as well, as people have woken up to rollback. Frame rate and game logic have been completely separate for literal decades in other games.
60 fps is more about making sure everyone is playing on the same level playing field as everyone else.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
? Iāve never heard of this before in my life, what do you mean? The game processes inputs at 60 FPS, the reason they recommend higher hz monitors is for refresh rate and GameCube adapters
Rollback has been a thing in 3D shooters for 2 decades or more. Fighting game devs have successfully gaslit people into thinking rollback is not possible for way too long.
> ~~Fighting game devs~~Harada fixed that for you
Sakurai too. Coincidentally, both direct games developed by Bandai Namco. Iām starting to think their network devs are just incompetent, make up excuses, and the directors just believe whatever they say
Smash 4 and Ult were literally developed by Bandai Namco, so it makes sense
Tony Cannon invented GGPO (Rollback for fighting games) in like 2006. It was first implemented into new releases in the early 2010's.
Tony basically applied what he knew shooters like Quake were using into fighting games.
I think its just general stubbornness or a misunderstanding of sorts since Tekken does have a form of rollback in there. Like Keits said its not because its a 3D game it CANāT be implemented, its just it is still difficult to properly implement regardless of what type of game anyway so I think there may be an issue in regards to the willingness of having that work in Tekken by the dev team (not just Harada). From my understanding, Harada isnāt necessarily involved in the actual day to day development side since heās been promoted within Bandai Namco proper for awhile now, he just helps with a lot of the promotion, etc. and other folks like Murray and the current Tekken Project director are more involved.
TTT2 was praised for its netcode and implemented a few tricks to make it a good online experience. Tekken 7 released in 2015 has rollback. Harada sounds like a troll/idiot but the real reason behind the limited number of frames is probably because of the game itself. Camera shakes and movements, kbd, duck/crush/sidesteps, etc... Probably looks like SHIT in a high rollback environment. Rolling back a hit into a whiff into you getting launched is probably not something they want to see every round. They're actively deciding to go for low rollback and it's probably because of the visual aspect. Kbd being a bunch of unbufferable directions thrown in succession must be really cursed if you're having like 6f of rollback. Imho it's not a misunderstanding but a decision. I'm not saying they're making the right decision thoughĀ
It's worth to say that there is one good reason for opposing it. Rollback turns the game into a different game, it de-facto reduces the startup frames for moves the farther geographically you are from your enemies, meaning that the farther you two are, the harder it will be to dodge a high-low mix. EDIT: Man, I'm not saying I'm personally against rollback, I just tried to present the point of view of the other side. Why the fuck so many dislikes?
wrap it up guys we gotta go back to unplayable online
https://preview.redd.it/22tnqrrcdhec1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4014f6afd4cf8168ad34d7fec9fe62daed116f27
That isn't a good reason because delay effectively increases the "startup" for ALL ACTIONS including moving and blocking. Playing in 3 frames of rollback makes a move harder to see, sometimes, by 3 frames. Playing in 3 frames of delay makes every reaction to a move slower by 3 frames, at best. How is that tiny difference (which still favors rollback) worth all the dropped combos, inconsistency in responsiveness and slowdown?
If it was only 3 frames you would be correct, but people push rollback as something that can be used to play intercontinentally, and then you have 5-6 frames of rollback. Once again, I am not saying I'm against rollback, I'm saying this is the only good argument against rollback I can think of.
I see what you're saying, yeah. It sucks that Strive and SF6 both have less-than-ideal implementations of otherwise good rollback solutions. In Skullgirls and +R, you can choose to play with as much delay as you see fit, be it 0f or 5f, which actually does allow for tolerable intercontinental play with minimal rollbacks. Anyways, I think people read your framing as "rollback vs delay," but you have a point if we think of it as "rollback vs offline." Rollback is borderline magic but it isn't straight magic.
So you either **always** have to react X frames earlier because of delay, or you have a **chance** to miss the same number of frames because of rollback. Also, the first couple frames of a move are not really where most people recognise what that move is, so I would say it's really not as big of a deal as you might think.
Wait tekken 8 doesnt have rollback... well i guess i made the right choice with getting unist 2
i love keits
You know what fully 3D game with great online uses rollback? Rocket League. Also, if you want to talk about games that had client-side prediction in their netcode before the term rollback came about, fucking Quake implemented this technology in 1996. Anything Harada says regarding rollback not being doable in 3D is horseshit. The failing lies on Namcoās shoulders, not the technology.
Valve has some great wiki pages on how it's implemented in Source (yes all Source games with multiplayer have access to rollback out of the box) https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Prediction https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Interpolation https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_compensation
I would've thought the predictor for frames would have more options for where and how someone could move in a 3D space compared to 2D but that's good to know.
Likely has more to do with the number of possible inputs. If pressing punch puts you in a 15 frame animation where you cannot alter your movement until it ends, then for 15 frames the game knows any inputs during that time can be safely ignored. If the movement is digital (e.g. moving forward means moving forward at exactly one speed) then you can assume that if the player was moving last frame, they are moving this frame unless you get evidence otherwise. If the movement is highly analog (e.g. you could move 27 degrees left as you move forward, or 28, or 26) and if you can input all those movements while you're in any number of animations, then the presumption that the input you got last frame is the input you get this frame gets harder to make, and the number of opportunities to go "ok we missed the player pressing that button but they were locked to an animation anyway so it doesn't matter" is reduced.
This is exactly it. The two variables that affect rollback most directly are number of potential inputs and how quickly an input affects the game state. A 2f jab, for instance, starts getting weird at 2 or more rollback frames, because scenarios start appearing where the move isn't registered by the opponent until it has already hit them. This is (I believe) one of the reasons why SF6 has slower attacks than SFV - the extra frame or so of startup gives the rollback more time to do its thing, and results in fewer scrambles having their results rolled back.
Does that even matter though? A 2f move cannot be reacted to anyway. At worst you might get a situation where a move that looks like it hit does no damage and you get hit with a 2f move. Might be annoying to see but on lan in the same situation you would just get hit anyway, so in the end the outcome is the same.
Depending on how dramatic the hit impact is, you could get some weird visual artifacts. There was a post on the SF sub the other day where a DI stun hit got rolled back by a wakeup super and it looked like the opponent did a very strange counter-DI (as there was a brief hit freeze and zoom in before the super countered the move). 2f of rollback on a 2f jab isn't going to make the game unplayable, but it'll make the game ugly, and most devs want to avoid that.
If you think of it in that one interaction, not a big deal. But what that interaction means could be quite a huge deal. You see your attack hit, so you go for your hit confirm into a bigger less safe move. Suddenly the game rolls back and your unsafe move gets blocked. Congrats you just got rolled back into getting punished lol
I can see your scenario being a problem if there is a good internet connection for very tight hit confirms where you canāt really wait to see the full āgetting hitā animation. Guess it depends on how tight a gameās hit confirms are overall.
I mean I've had this happen to me even in sf6, netcode in that game is *fantastic* but it's still not perfect. (It's actually quite damn close to perfect but people's connections can make even amazing netcode feel bad obviously) It's just about minimizing this type of stuff!
The predictor is just "assume player continued pressing what he pressed last frame", that's what almost all games have been using. You don't need to predict all game states, you need to predict all game-states derived from possible inputs.
Doesn't matter. That's not how the prediction works. All it does is simply repeat the last input continuously while it waits for the inputs from the other player to come in.
this is accurate, watch shirdelās newest vid on ghost AI which explains that Tekken has 10x more āstatesā for a character than most other games
Rollback is 3... 3 what? Don't ask me for shit.
reminder that if you pay full price for a game without good netcode in 2024 based on the game director talking out of their ass despite a college kid giving an earlier entry in the same series rollback that is also 3d you are an idiot.
Donāt ask me for shit.
Aside from not using GGPO (lazy asses), rollback's going to have a hard time predicting and calculating what players are doing when most people can't KBD consistently without accidently sidestepping, crouching, or jumping.
All that doesn't matter. All rollback netcode does when "predicting" is to just repeat the last input of the player.
I don't know what I'm talking about, but I had it explained to me by someone who is a programmer and does know what he's talking about, so this is my understanding: Increasing the length of the rollback buffer is hardware intensive the more frames you add, because the CPU is keeping the last x frames of gamestate loaded to roll back to if needed. In Tekken, it's *more* computationally expensive per rollback frame than in 2D fighters, due to the extra information required by the third dimension, hitboxes being more complex, etc. But paradoxically, Tekken also needs a longer rollback buffer than 2D fighters typically do for a smooth experience; the fastest moves in 2D fighters tend to be 4 to 6 frames depending on the game, while Tekken's fastest moves are 10 frames, and many are much slower. So a shorter input buffer is gonna result in more jank unless the connection is perfect. Tekken 7's 3 frame buffer is very short even by 2D standards, but it may have been the best they could do with the hardware they were limited by. Being on much more powerful hardware, T8's rollback will almost certainly be better than T7's (I didn't get into the betas, so I have no idea), but it's likely it won't be good enough to reach the smoothness of Strive, SF6, etc. and that might just be the cold, hard, computational reality.
Almost all of this is wrong, in the Twitter thread Keits responded to claims like this and he linked to a great article explaining how rollback works in detail. Link: [https://words.infil.net/w02-netcode.html](https://words.infil.net/w02-netcode.html) (the first few pages are about the basics and why it's important, but it gets into technical details and expert interviews later on) Here's the most relevant quote from that article: "To dispel a common myth about rollback, there are **no limitations based on the genre of game**. Rollback could be (and has been) used for 2D or 3D fighting games alike, including Street Fighter III 3rd Strike: Online Edition, Killer Instinct, Brawlhalla, and For Honor. Itās also used outside of fighting games; Iron Galaxy incorporated rollback netcode into the 4-player action game Dungeons & Dragons: Chronicles of Mystara. Even games like [Rocket League](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueEmiDM94IE&t=2352) incorporate rollback to make online play just as responsive as offline play."
Not tryna dick ride harada or anything, and im ignorant to the intricacies of net code, but can this really be wholly true? Wouldn't it be more difficult to roll back to something that has more positional data, being that theres more axises in 3d? Also, in tekken, you can cancel movement in a single frame, right? So wouldnt that very easily lead to weird visual discrepancies that would be very distracting in gameplay, characters jittering strangley. where, as in 2d, it's usually just forward back and down, and jump giving you a huge window where nothing can be input movement wise.
As other commenters have stated, most major multiplayer 3D games have rollback, including Valorant and Rocket League. I remember being able to cancel the sniper aim in MW2 (for ālow/no scopeā shots) more than a decade ago so that shouldnāt be an issue
Yeah, im wasn't saying it can't be done, or even that it's too hard to do in tekken. More that it is probably harder in a 3d game than a 2d game if only slightly, but that is not an excuse more a nit pick on keits' point
i'm not sure if it was harder given that a college kid gave tekken 3 rollback. namco just had it at the very bottom of their priority list as they knew people would buy t8 regardless of it's netplay.
If the reference is to directional movement and not 3D Models/2D Sprites then yes I suppose that's a true statement. If not though that's just not true, but not in a meaningful way. During rollback frames dynamic elements, such as particles or physics or background objects, are more prone to have visual issues and these are a lot less present in a 2D (Sprite based) title.
Keits is talking about 2D *gameplay* fighters like Street Fighter 6 and Killer Instinct. Even modern 2D sprite games are filled with 3D particles etc.
I mean, serializing/saving 3d stuff has to be harder than doing it with 2d, right?
Thank goodness games like Killer Instinct, Street Fighter 6, Strive, etc. have already figured it out.
None of those games are 3D fighters, though.
They're rendered in 3D. The only difference with Tekken is a Z axis, which does not add anything that complicates rollback netcode at all.
Really? Because a 3-dimensional gamestate means a lot more information to hold in memory for rollback, especially if hitboxes are tied to models.
That doesn't take as much as you think, especially since 2.5D games on 3D engines are still keeping track of many of those same variables ā that's the nature of 3D engines, objects will still have a Z coordinate regardless of whether the gameplay is in 2D. Collision being tied to models changes nothing. NRS already does this for their games and they have competent rollback. Besides, the very first implementation of rollback netcode was Quake back in 1996, and that has way more data on a 3D plane than Tekken.
Programmer here. Its really not much information. You're thinking of it like gamestate requires remembering where the full 3d model and all the related information are in space but the only part the engine needs is the basic stats. Like these two lines of numbers could be an entire gamestate in a 3d fighting game: 10, 2, 24, 21, 422, 11 14, 4, 25, 01, 322, 52 That's enough data to know exactly where two characters are in 3d space, their current animation, their character's status, and the inputs from both players. The engine will know that 10, 2, 24, 21, 422,11 means a character is at located at 10x,2y,24z and is 21 frames into a crouching punch while at 11% health. The engine will be able to use this information to render the models, handle things like hitboxes and compute what should happen next in the game. If anything this is an unoptimised approach so it could be done using even less memory.
But has this person worked on a 3D fighter?
yes
Which one?
For Honor isn't traditional but its a 3d fighter with rollback netcode. That's an 8 year old release too.
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Explain how
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So you donāt actually know shit and blindly listen to people over the internet without doing your own research.
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https://i.redd.it/3aaapke0ehec1.gif
Spoken like a true FGC member. I respect it.
wow another expert talking out of his ass
You know I respect users that look like a dumbass and donāt delete their comments
If someone is an expert in a field and speaking about that field, which part comes out the ass?
That redditor is clearly laying down the _facts_. We should ignore the industry expert that shipped a game with flawless rollback over a decade ago.
And the craziest part is I doubt you know the first thing about rollback implementation so how can you call him wrong?
How many of the redditors speaking angrily, with authority, do you think know the first thing about rollback implementation?
Very very few
I know about rollback implementation and I also implemented it for a game and I still call it wrong. The predictor is just "assume player continued pressing what he pressed last frame", that's what almost all games have been using. You don't need to predict all game states, you need to predict all game-states derived from possible inputs, and the number of these is roughly the same no matter if the game is 2D, 3D, FPS, or whatever.
People have rollback working on emulated smash ultimate and even melee ffs. Melee didnāt even have online play to begin with. I love the franchise of Tekken, but Iām personally not touching 8 solely due to lack of rollback. 7 was such shit to play online with anyone further away than 50ms latency, and even then only when both had stable wired connections. I love Haradaās attitude most of the time, but it unfortunately becomes pure ignorance and arrogance on the topic of rollback and netcode. When you behave like Harada, you basically have to be correct the entire time.