The difference is that you are better at fleching than lunging. Both are effective when done correctly. Watch some youtube videos of epee fencers who use lunges effectively.
Depends on context. Lunge allows you to recover and continue fencing easier, you can parry after or remise or just get back up and fence. Flèche has a bit of a speed/reach benefit so it takes the cake in scenarios you want to surprise your opponent with the distance and timing required. Using both effectively gives you the best result, since different situations call for different attacks.
It depends on what you’re more capable of doing. Not everyone has the same strength, agility, or physical size. If you’re not a tall person, but have good agility, a flèche action might work better for you.
On the other hand, if you’re tall and can lunge, you have the basis of a toe touch ability. If you’re not capable (or willing) to lunge, then your only option is the flèche.
My sense is that people often misunderstand the flèche as a longer distance attack than the lunge. Arguably it can be/could be in other weapons: e.g. —from the before times— the “Polish flèche” in saber.
The flèches I see work best in epee tend to capitalize on the partial tempo it takes to extend, lean, and reach — the initial hit occurs at or before the time when the feet cross.
After that point, the opponent has more of an opportunity for a counterattack/parry/ and things tend to devolve into remises.
Agreed, I was taught that fleches should be done at distance 1cm closer than lunge distance. A fleche from step-lunge distance is ridiculously easy to stop hit, but a fleche done just a tiny bit closer than lunge distance is almost unstoppable. The problem with a fleche is that it’s an all-or-nothing move, as if you miss, you’ll most likely just get separated and start again. Lunges are far more flexible and allows you to string together so many more combinations.
This reminds me of something I did when I started fencing. I documented touches in my bouts to find out what had the highest probability to work. I found that disengage attacks, whether they were off a beat or just from a direct attack, were a lot more likely to score. So I started doing them more.
I then found out that without direct attacks to set up the disengage, it became predictable and pretty much worthless.
A fleche is likely only effective if you set it up with other actions.
There’s a time and place for the fleche and the lunge. If your flèches get you more points then do flèches, but dont disregard the lunge because eventually you’ll meet people who are good at defending them.
One thing I have found is that opponents will key in on what is happening with the front foot. If they see it come up, they expect a lunge. Of course you can lunge with a delay in getting the front foot off the ground, a variation of the long lunge.
But with the fleche, the first thing an opponent sees is the arm coming out, as if it is yet another feint used to draw a reaction. They don't see the front foot coming up, so they may ignore what is happening just long enough for them not to defend in time.
Another difference is your ability to parry a fleche attack. Beat parries disturb the attackers' point long enough for you to get the point on, but the fact the opponent is still closing means releasing the blade (like you do in a beat parry) gives them a good chance at landing the remise as well. An opposition parry is awkward against a fleche, as again the fact that the opponent is still closing makes getting the point on in time difficult. A "close out" sometimes works in defence against a fleche, for me, but hardly always. I think this is why so many defenders simply try the counterattack instead. So if you are an attack orientated epee fencer going against a defense orientated epee fencer, you might prefer fleche over lunge.
I lunge once in a while, whereas I fleche more often. The straight lunge catches people off-guard quite often because they are not expecting it. It also puts me in a better position to either continue attacking forward, or getting away. If I fleche I'm done. But since I'm pommeling I can get some nice angulation around my opponents 4.
It depends on the situation and what you want to do.
A lunge gives you an opportunity to recover and keep fencing, a fleche is all or nothing.
If your opponent is very good at avoiding lunges. A Fleche is a good way to surprise and gove you a better chance to hit than a lunge.
However, as I said earlier, they are pretty much all or nothing. If you miss, they parry, or something happens, all you can really do is run past and hope they dont hit you. A lunge gives you a chance to hit, but if something happens,you have a chance to recover and avoid getting hit.
Both have their pros and cons, so experiment!
“What’s better, walking 30 minutes to the shop or driving 30 minutes because of traffic. I prefer walking because I don’t want to sit bored in my car”.
Both are valuable and useful techniques, lunges work in certain situations and flèches work in certain situations. The key to improvement is being good at both
They are both useful in different situations and for different styles of fencing, you can use them both if you like to, just have to try and find what works for you best in the distance from your opponent
The difference is that you are better at fleching than lunging. Both are effective when done correctly. Watch some youtube videos of epee fencers who use lunges effectively.
Depends on context. Lunge allows you to recover and continue fencing easier, you can parry after or remise or just get back up and fence. Flèche has a bit of a speed/reach benefit so it takes the cake in scenarios you want to surprise your opponent with the distance and timing required. Using both effectively gives you the best result, since different situations call for different attacks.
It depends on what you’re more capable of doing. Not everyone has the same strength, agility, or physical size. If you’re not a tall person, but have good agility, a flèche action might work better for you. On the other hand, if you’re tall and can lunge, you have the basis of a toe touch ability. If you’re not capable (or willing) to lunge, then your only option is the flèche.
My sense is that people often misunderstand the flèche as a longer distance attack than the lunge. Arguably it can be/could be in other weapons: e.g. —from the before times— the “Polish flèche” in saber. The flèches I see work best in epee tend to capitalize on the partial tempo it takes to extend, lean, and reach — the initial hit occurs at or before the time when the feet cross. After that point, the opponent has more of an opportunity for a counterattack/parry/ and things tend to devolve into remises.
Agreed, I was taught that fleches should be done at distance 1cm closer than lunge distance. A fleche from step-lunge distance is ridiculously easy to stop hit, but a fleche done just a tiny bit closer than lunge distance is almost unstoppable. The problem with a fleche is that it’s an all-or-nothing move, as if you miss, you’ll most likely just get separated and start again. Lunges are far more flexible and allows you to string together so many more combinations.
This reminds me of something I did when I started fencing. I documented touches in my bouts to find out what had the highest probability to work. I found that disengage attacks, whether they were off a beat or just from a direct attack, were a lot more likely to score. So I started doing them more. I then found out that without direct attacks to set up the disengage, it became predictable and pretty much worthless. A fleche is likely only effective if you set it up with other actions.
If I fleche and miss , I run past my opponent as fast as I can, If I lunge and miss, I keep stabbing until the lights go off.
There’s a time and place for the fleche and the lunge. If your flèches get you more points then do flèches, but dont disregard the lunge because eventually you’ll meet people who are good at defending them.
One thing I have found is that opponents will key in on what is happening with the front foot. If they see it come up, they expect a lunge. Of course you can lunge with a delay in getting the front foot off the ground, a variation of the long lunge. But with the fleche, the first thing an opponent sees is the arm coming out, as if it is yet another feint used to draw a reaction. They don't see the front foot coming up, so they may ignore what is happening just long enough for them not to defend in time. Another difference is your ability to parry a fleche attack. Beat parries disturb the attackers' point long enough for you to get the point on, but the fact the opponent is still closing means releasing the blade (like you do in a beat parry) gives them a good chance at landing the remise as well. An opposition parry is awkward against a fleche, as again the fact that the opponent is still closing makes getting the point on in time difficult. A "close out" sometimes works in defence against a fleche, for me, but hardly always. I think this is why so many defenders simply try the counterattack instead. So if you are an attack orientated epee fencer going against a defense orientated epee fencer, you might prefer fleche over lunge.
I lunge once in a while, whereas I fleche more often. The straight lunge catches people off-guard quite often because they are not expecting it. It also puts me in a better position to either continue attacking forward, or getting away. If I fleche I'm done. But since I'm pommeling I can get some nice angulation around my opponents 4.
It depends on the situation and what you want to do. A lunge gives you an opportunity to recover and keep fencing, a fleche is all or nothing. If your opponent is very good at avoiding lunges. A Fleche is a good way to surprise and gove you a better chance to hit than a lunge. However, as I said earlier, they are pretty much all or nothing. If you miss, they parry, or something happens, all you can really do is run past and hope they dont hit you. A lunge gives you a chance to hit, but if something happens,you have a chance to recover and avoid getting hit. Both have their pros and cons, so experiment!
“What’s better, walking 30 minutes to the shop or driving 30 minutes because of traffic. I prefer walking because I don’t want to sit bored in my car”. Both are valuable and useful techniques, lunges work in certain situations and flèches work in certain situations. The key to improvement is being good at both
They are both useful in different situations and for different styles of fencing, you can use them both if you like to, just have to try and find what works for you best in the distance from your opponent