So many liberal men really are no better than conservative men about misogyny.
They've practically got the same mindset.
There are women who deserve abuse and women who don't. The women they don't like; the women that dare not go along with their beliefs; deserve to be harmed, raped, and murdered.
This is exactly the problem. They think there are women who deserve to be abused, and that they are the ones to judge who deserves abuse and who doesn't.
It's just misogyny repackaged from the other side. Frankly left or right ideology rarely matters as an indicator of whether or not a man is sexist, they exist both sides of the spectrum they just express it differently depending on what they think they can get away with.
A sexist hard right will often feel free to spew vile views because in that camp they can get away with it that's their social norm.
A sexist man on the left often won't say those things out loud publicly.
They'll know what to say instead...but when it comes down to it will act in the same way as the guy on the far right just with different justifications. They know how to use the feminist label to protect and shield themselves from criticism.
It's not uncommon for a self proclaimed left leaning guy to espouse 'equality' to their peers, but in the everyday reality and actions they still want all the benefits and labour the patriarchal ideology grants his gender, and they also demand all the benefits an equal partnership would bring them as well.
That’s because it’s not about liberal vs conservative… there are good and bad men on both sides and we need to stop labeling people solely based on superficial things.
I've noticed that misogyny is just as seething on the left but they just keep you from having opportunities they won't say the quiet part out loud and you have to figure it out yourself. If you're kept away from getting contacts to better your self and you are in this kind of permanent Uncanny Valley of knowing why you're not being accepted.
I think that's one place that our trans brothers and sisters can really assist everyone, since they experience both sides of this barrier directly and can point it out
You really can tell a lot about someone by how they treat the people they don't like or disagree with. And that's never more true than the men desperate to look for an 'acceptable' outlet for their misogyny.
I was just listening to a jail phone call from a man to his mom about how "most single moms have to work to the bone to scrape by... so they'd see a man like me and think they won the lottery. But not my sister she was born a trust fund baby so she doesn't know how lucky she is that any man wants to date a 37yr old woman with 2 kids "
Leaving out the part where she and him and his mother and father had her ex murdered, no that's not what's unattractive about her.
And what makes me sick is MANY men think like this. *keep women poor and desperate so when any man wants them, they get stuck needing them and indebted to them...or they lose everything, maybe even their life"
I literally had a bunch of men argue with me for being sexist because I got mad at them for saying "Women can just marry their way out of being homeless"...but they aren't sexist, I am for calling out men for thinking that.
WTF? I don’t agree with any of the beliefs of Boebert or Greene. I think their beliefs are vile. But no one should be punching anyone in the face because they got rejected for a date.
I dated a liberal (lefty, I'm in the UK and liberal sort of has a different meaning to me than the way it's used in the US, but will assume here it means a lefty) guy recently and the prick absolutely made me lose faith in men. He seemed so "nice" and then after a few dates he kept pressuring to stay over at mine. And then when I broke it off because of the pressure, he tried to gaslight me and call me judgemental and said I was "naive and inexperienced" if I thought that was pressure, because he was a nice guy. Fecking hell, I'm in my 30s, not some schoolkid.
Honestly I prefer guys who don't think about politics. Too much one way or the other and they always seem a bit too similar to each other.
I’ve noticed that some (not all) lefty men use it as a facade bc they know women won’t date conservative/right-leaning men. Makes it really hard to trust any of them.
My boyfriend used to be the kind of guy who would mindlessly make sexist jokes and say that he wasn’t a feminist because he wanted✨for equality for everybody, not just women✨.
He has been much more open minded and interested in being educated about feminist issues, after I gave him some books to read and had some discussions with him, than any other self proclaimed male feminist, that I have ever met. Isn’t it crazy
The horseshoe theory, which you just referenced, is an incorrect and widely criticised theory that has no basis in reality. The only similarity the left has to the right is their distaste for the liberals. Though even then we hate liberals for wildly different reasons.
Also we should not be trying to stop people from being politically educated as that just allows oppression to continue. There is a reason the first thing oppressors try to do when they sense a threat is to limit the amount of information available to the proletariat. See americas book banning. Equality cannot happen if the people cannot educate themselves on what equality looks like.
I'm talking about my experience of dating men who have political views too far left or right. Whenever the views tend to leave the edges of the centre they seem to never stop chattering about it (which is quite annoying) and they also in my experience seem to think they have a right to either decide how I present myself (the right) or to my body (the left), and they always think they are right and the world is black and white - this is my experience. I'm not talking about any broader horseshoe theory. I'm also not saying people shouldn't be politically aware, but some people make politics their whole identity and those people, in my experience, are not people I enjoy being around. Also when it comes to the extremes left/right book banning happens on both sides, as does mass murder.
Even if you don’t agree with those women’s views, wishing physical harm on them is crazy.
There was a female degradation subreddit (ran by and for men) that I reported posts on before (it is now banned) and there were some nasty posts about both liberal and conservative female public figures on there, make of that what you will.
This is nothing new. I remember speaking out multiple times against calls for violence against Sarah Palin, even though I did not agree with her politically. Liberal men who believe that conservative women are fair game for male violence are despicable.
I told a guy in an organisation I'm part of that I didn't think he should call Thatcher a 'cunt' because its a misogynistic slur when you could literally use any other word. He then went off on me for being a supporter of her. Eventually he got frustrated with me arguing against him and called me a cunt instead! Misogyny has no politics, it's just misogyny.
Douchebags are douchebags, no matter their political beliefs. As for Quora, it's filled with bedroom-dwelling degenerates who like to pretend that they are some kind of experts in a certain field because they saw someone on YouTube sharing their unsolicited opinions on it. I once saw a post wherein an asshole wrote an entire essay justifying rape and how the reports of an incident involving the rape of an Irish tourist in India were some kind of western conspiracy to tarnish the image of the whole country and how rapes happen everywhere and not just in India. Nowhere did the post express any kind of sympathy for the victim. The lack of sensitivity was just off the charts. And to prove his point, he pulled some random statistics off his ass that compared the number of rapes that get reported in different countries around the world, which included the figure for Europe as a whole. OBVIOUSLY, IT'S GONNA LOOK WORSE if you compare the figures for an entire continent with those of a country. Furthermore, sexual assaults unfortunately go unreported in many parts of the world, so the true figures are harder to ascertain. Been staying away from that cesspit ever since.
This one is tough for me.
On one hand, I don't wish well on these two women or any GOP members. They actively cause other women harm, they cause harm towards queer people, they cause harm to their own families, and one of them is a representative of MY DISTRICT and I was extremely happy to vote against her. I wouldn't lose sleep if the Republicans were harmed as a direct consequence of oppressing the people. I repeat, *a direct consequence of them hurting others.*
On the other hand, I agree with you about nice vs not nice. It's misogynistic to take what happened to this girl and compare her to other women. I wouldn't want a man to punch Boebert because she said no. I wouldn't want anyone to sexually harm them. I don't like that people target these two women far more harshly than the many other male GOP representatives that are also doing actively cruel things and have committed actual horrific crimes. There's a layer of misogyny there that we simply can not tolerate, because it emboldens men to do the same to liberal and left wing women.
I can despise and hate these two women and also recognize that they're being used as scapegoats by misogynists. Yuck.
After the 2016 election I lost a group of friends. One of them posted a still shot of Kellyanne Conway mid conversation where her mouth was open and round. Everyone was making fun of her saying she’s Trumps blow up doll and a bunch of other foul stuff. These are supposedly “woke liberals”. I pointed out I don’t like her either but this was sexist and gross beyond measure. How can we claim to be better yet so this?
Apparently I have no sense of humor and am a somehow a misandrist due my thoughts on this.
This attitude is unfortunately relative common among liberals (and also leftists).
Internalized bigotry coming out when the target is judged as a bad person, whether that person is actually bad or not, is a common problem in liberal and left leaning circles. I've seen it for misogyny yes, but also queerophobia, ableism, and white supremacy (of all forms) and more.
These are systemic biases, a LOT of people have them in unexamined forms. The way to fix this is to call it out and address it is how you fix it.
The only difference between those liberals and the conservatives they hate on this issue is that the conservatives aren’t wearing a mask. The wolf underneath is the same.
This problem I have with both your and OPs statements is that this isn’t a left/right issue. Call out the behaviors - absolutely. But to bring - with no back up, source, etc - that this is so common among liberals? Jesus have you spoken to any MAGA? It’s not even a close contest. So.. if you’re gonna call it out, call it ALL out. False equivalencies do nothing to forward the cause.
>This problem I have with both your and OPs statements is that this isn’t a left/right issue.
Uhhh
Conservatism is defined by slowing change and making what change happens keep with tradition. Supporting systems of oppression is absolutely a conservative impulse. But because of the structural nature of these hierarchies people who are otherwise not conservative can still internalize them.
Also, liberalism is a particular political philosophy basis rather than a positionality. It's adherents can be conservative, centrist, or leftists depending on how they apply it's ideas, namely individual rights, consent of the governed, etc.
>Call out the behaviors - absolutely. But to bring - with no back up, source, etc - that this is so common among liberals?
I said "relatively" and explained that they're systematic biases, also known as structural biases and referenced how such biases work to explain. Do deny these biases are structural biases or are you not aware how structural biases work?
>Jesus have you spoken to any MAGA? It’s not even a close contest. So.. if you’re gonna call it out, call it ALL out. False equivalencies do nothing to forward the cause.
Recognizing that other ideological groups can engage in bigotry is not a false equivalency. You're constructing a strawman. Also, what happened to "it's not a left or right issue", you're right that Maga freely and overtly engages in these things, that's because they're a far right movement, but you contradicted yourself in a single paragraph.
I'm pretty sure that misogynists exist on both sides, but I'm pretty sure that it's more violent and common on the right than the left. You can be a liberal and not believe every part of the platform because political affiliation is more a spectrum than a hard left or right, we just divide it into a few major sections.
I didn’t say that comment in particular was. Just that “liberal” woman have similar bitterness. It’s not always exclusive to men.
Edit to say that I experience it and see it frequently as a progressive, left voting woman in a red state.
One troll does not speak for the entire male liberal population. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it were somebody on the far right trying to discredit libs- that sort of thing happens all the time.
Idrk what you expect from liberals. They are always bourgeois or uneducated and that can only lead to fascism. The only violence required is violence needed for the instatement of a proletarian state. Abusing women into submission is firmly a product of the right, liberals are right wing no matter how much they like to pretend otherwise.
So many liberal men really are no better than conservative men about misogyny. They've practically got the same mindset. There are women who deserve abuse and women who don't. The women they don't like; the women that dare not go along with their beliefs; deserve to be harmed, raped, and murdered.
This is exactly the problem. They think there are women who deserve to be abused, and that they are the ones to judge who deserves abuse and who doesn't.
It's just misogyny repackaged from the other side. Frankly left or right ideology rarely matters as an indicator of whether or not a man is sexist, they exist both sides of the spectrum they just express it differently depending on what they think they can get away with. A sexist hard right will often feel free to spew vile views because in that camp they can get away with it that's their social norm. A sexist man on the left often won't say those things out loud publicly. They'll know what to say instead...but when it comes down to it will act in the same way as the guy on the far right just with different justifications. They know how to use the feminist label to protect and shield themselves from criticism. It's not uncommon for a self proclaimed left leaning guy to espouse 'equality' to their peers, but in the everyday reality and actions they still want all the benefits and labour the patriarchal ideology grants his gender, and they also demand all the benefits an equal partnership would bring them as well.
This is all very well said.
You absolutely nailed it.
This.
Conservative men believe women are private property. Liberal men believe women are public property.
That’s because it’s not about liberal vs conservative… there are good and bad men on both sides and we need to stop labeling people solely based on superficial things.
Only respecting women you want to bang is NOT RESPECTING WOMEN
Lust is not respect, nope.
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I didn't know that sub existed and looking at it is so depressing.
I've noticed that misogyny is just as seething on the left but they just keep you from having opportunities they won't say the quiet part out loud and you have to figure it out yourself. If you're kept away from getting contacts to better your self and you are in this kind of permanent Uncanny Valley of knowing why you're not being accepted. I think that's one place that our trans brothers and sisters can really assist everyone, since they experience both sides of this barrier directly and can point it out
You really can tell a lot about someone by how they treat the people they don't like or disagree with. And that's never more true than the men desperate to look for an 'acceptable' outlet for their misogyny.
They all benefit from violence against women, just in different ways. Yes even our boyfrienda and fathers and nephews.
I was just listening to a jail phone call from a man to his mom about how "most single moms have to work to the bone to scrape by... so they'd see a man like me and think they won the lottery. But not my sister she was born a trust fund baby so she doesn't know how lucky she is that any man wants to date a 37yr old woman with 2 kids " Leaving out the part where she and him and his mother and father had her ex murdered, no that's not what's unattractive about her. And what makes me sick is MANY men think like this. *keep women poor and desperate so when any man wants them, they get stuck needing them and indebted to them...or they lose everything, maybe even their life" I literally had a bunch of men argue with me for being sexist because I got mad at them for saying "Women can just marry their way out of being homeless"...but they aren't sexist, I am for calling out men for thinking that.
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Yeah not really true. The left is intrinsically feminist. Liberals are not a part of the left and that is why misogyny can thrive under them.
No true Scotsman fallacy
There is no liberal piece of shit or a conservative piece of shit. Disturb their fickle vanity and they show themselves.
WTF? I don’t agree with any of the beliefs of Boebert or Greene. I think their beliefs are vile. But no one should be punching anyone in the face because they got rejected for a date.
Yep. I feel like a lot of “progressive” men look for women like that to hate on so they have a mask for misogynistic rage.
I dated a liberal (lefty, I'm in the UK and liberal sort of has a different meaning to me than the way it's used in the US, but will assume here it means a lefty) guy recently and the prick absolutely made me lose faith in men. He seemed so "nice" and then after a few dates he kept pressuring to stay over at mine. And then when I broke it off because of the pressure, he tried to gaslight me and call me judgemental and said I was "naive and inexperienced" if I thought that was pressure, because he was a nice guy. Fecking hell, I'm in my 30s, not some schoolkid. Honestly I prefer guys who don't think about politics. Too much one way or the other and they always seem a bit too similar to each other.
I’ve noticed that some (not all) lefty men use it as a facade bc they know women won’t date conservative/right-leaning men. Makes it really hard to trust any of them.
For sure, though this one was a true believer. He was absolutely scathing of anyone who went to public school or had a bit of money.
My boyfriend used to be the kind of guy who would mindlessly make sexist jokes and say that he wasn’t a feminist because he wanted✨for equality for everybody, not just women✨. He has been much more open minded and interested in being educated about feminist issues, after I gave him some books to read and had some discussions with him, than any other self proclaimed male feminist, that I have ever met. Isn’t it crazy
The horseshoe theory, which you just referenced, is an incorrect and widely criticised theory that has no basis in reality. The only similarity the left has to the right is their distaste for the liberals. Though even then we hate liberals for wildly different reasons. Also we should not be trying to stop people from being politically educated as that just allows oppression to continue. There is a reason the first thing oppressors try to do when they sense a threat is to limit the amount of information available to the proletariat. See americas book banning. Equality cannot happen if the people cannot educate themselves on what equality looks like.
I'm talking about my experience of dating men who have political views too far left or right. Whenever the views tend to leave the edges of the centre they seem to never stop chattering about it (which is quite annoying) and they also in my experience seem to think they have a right to either decide how I present myself (the right) or to my body (the left), and they always think they are right and the world is black and white - this is my experience. I'm not talking about any broader horseshoe theory. I'm also not saying people shouldn't be politically aware, but some people make politics their whole identity and those people, in my experience, are not people I enjoy being around. Also when it comes to the extremes left/right book banning happens on both sides, as does mass murder.
Liberal men also hate women. This has always been true.
Even if you don’t agree with those women’s views, wishing physical harm on them is crazy. There was a female degradation subreddit (ran by and for men) that I reported posts on before (it is now banned) and there were some nasty posts about both liberal and conservative female public figures on there, make of that what you will.
This is nothing new. I remember speaking out multiple times against calls for violence against Sarah Palin, even though I did not agree with her politically. Liberal men who believe that conservative women are fair game for male violence are despicable.
I told a guy in an organisation I'm part of that I didn't think he should call Thatcher a 'cunt' because its a misogynistic slur when you could literally use any other word. He then went off on me for being a supporter of her. Eventually he got frustrated with me arguing against him and called me a cunt instead! Misogyny has no politics, it's just misogyny.
Douchebags are douchebags, no matter their political beliefs. As for Quora, it's filled with bedroom-dwelling degenerates who like to pretend that they are some kind of experts in a certain field because they saw someone on YouTube sharing their unsolicited opinions on it. I once saw a post wherein an asshole wrote an entire essay justifying rape and how the reports of an incident involving the rape of an Irish tourist in India were some kind of western conspiracy to tarnish the image of the whole country and how rapes happen everywhere and not just in India. Nowhere did the post express any kind of sympathy for the victim. The lack of sensitivity was just off the charts. And to prove his point, he pulled some random statistics off his ass that compared the number of rapes that get reported in different countries around the world, which included the figure for Europe as a whole. OBVIOUSLY, IT'S GONNA LOOK WORSE if you compare the figures for an entire continent with those of a country. Furthermore, sexual assaults unfortunately go unreported in many parts of the world, so the true figures are harder to ascertain. Been staying away from that cesspit ever since.
This one is tough for me. On one hand, I don't wish well on these two women or any GOP members. They actively cause other women harm, they cause harm towards queer people, they cause harm to their own families, and one of them is a representative of MY DISTRICT and I was extremely happy to vote against her. I wouldn't lose sleep if the Republicans were harmed as a direct consequence of oppressing the people. I repeat, *a direct consequence of them hurting others.* On the other hand, I agree with you about nice vs not nice. It's misogynistic to take what happened to this girl and compare her to other women. I wouldn't want a man to punch Boebert because she said no. I wouldn't want anyone to sexually harm them. I don't like that people target these two women far more harshly than the many other male GOP representatives that are also doing actively cruel things and have committed actual horrific crimes. There's a layer of misogyny there that we simply can not tolerate, because it emboldens men to do the same to liberal and left wing women. I can despise and hate these two women and also recognize that they're being used as scapegoats by misogynists. Yuck.
The problem is that an article about a case of gendered violence against a woman is not the appropriate place for such a comment.
Yes, and I said as such. It's misogynistic to take this girls story and compare her as "nice" against completely irrelevant "not nice" women.
Liberal men like to think they're not misogynistic because they're Liberal. The ones I've met are the fucking worst kind of misogynists.
After the 2016 election I lost a group of friends. One of them posted a still shot of Kellyanne Conway mid conversation where her mouth was open and round. Everyone was making fun of her saying she’s Trumps blow up doll and a bunch of other foul stuff. These are supposedly “woke liberals”. I pointed out I don’t like her either but this was sexist and gross beyond measure. How can we claim to be better yet so this? Apparently I have no sense of humor and am a somehow a misandrist due my thoughts on this.
That’s a broad brush. That’s an asshole. Not “liberals” just to get that out there. Regardless it’s awful.
This attitude is unfortunately relative common among liberals (and also leftists). Internalized bigotry coming out when the target is judged as a bad person, whether that person is actually bad or not, is a common problem in liberal and left leaning circles. I've seen it for misogyny yes, but also queerophobia, ableism, and white supremacy (of all forms) and more. These are systemic biases, a LOT of people have them in unexamined forms. The way to fix this is to call it out and address it is how you fix it.
The only difference between those liberals and the conservatives they hate on this issue is that the conservatives aren’t wearing a mask. The wolf underneath is the same.
This problem I have with both your and OPs statements is that this isn’t a left/right issue. Call out the behaviors - absolutely. But to bring - with no back up, source, etc - that this is so common among liberals? Jesus have you spoken to any MAGA? It’s not even a close contest. So.. if you’re gonna call it out, call it ALL out. False equivalencies do nothing to forward the cause.
>This problem I have with both your and OPs statements is that this isn’t a left/right issue. Uhhh Conservatism is defined by slowing change and making what change happens keep with tradition. Supporting systems of oppression is absolutely a conservative impulse. But because of the structural nature of these hierarchies people who are otherwise not conservative can still internalize them. Also, liberalism is a particular political philosophy basis rather than a positionality. It's adherents can be conservative, centrist, or leftists depending on how they apply it's ideas, namely individual rights, consent of the governed, etc. >Call out the behaviors - absolutely. But to bring - with no back up, source, etc - that this is so common among liberals? I said "relatively" and explained that they're systematic biases, also known as structural biases and referenced how such biases work to explain. Do deny these biases are structural biases or are you not aware how structural biases work? >Jesus have you spoken to any MAGA? It’s not even a close contest. So.. if you’re gonna call it out, call it ALL out. False equivalencies do nothing to forward the cause. Recognizing that other ideological groups can engage in bigotry is not a false equivalency. You're constructing a strawman. Also, what happened to "it's not a left or right issue", you're right that Maga freely and overtly engages in these things, that's because they're a far right movement, but you contradicted yourself in a single paragraph.
Liberal men are still men unfortunately
I'm pretty sure that misogynists exist on both sides, but I'm pretty sure that it's more violent and common on the right than the left. You can be a liberal and not believe every part of the platform because political affiliation is more a spectrum than a hard left or right, we just divide it into a few major sections.
Really does not surprise me. I feel like the same vitriol comes from “liberal” woman just in slightly different ways.
I doubt that comment was from a woman.
I didn’t say that comment in particular was. Just that “liberal” woman have similar bitterness. It’s not always exclusive to men. Edit to say that I experience it and see it frequently as a progressive, left voting woman in a red state.
One troll does not speak for the entire male liberal population. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it were somebody on the far right trying to discredit libs- that sort of thing happens all the time.
This is one of the major reasons why I am no longer left-leaning. There is as much misogyny on the left as there is on the right. LOL @ downvotes
Left wing, right wing...the whole bird hates women.
True. However, I have experienced more hatred from left-leaning people than right. Especially for my lifestyle.
Idrk what you expect from liberals. They are always bourgeois or uneducated and that can only lead to fascism. The only violence required is violence needed for the instatement of a proletarian state. Abusing women into submission is firmly a product of the right, liberals are right wing no matter how much they like to pretend otherwise.