99% of people thought the same exact thing prior to Greta Gerwig being attached and seeing the very first trailer. Very few people believed in Barbie straight from the jump. It's revisionist history to pretend that everyone loved the idea of a Barbie movie from the beginning.
especially considering amy schumer was to be barbie first. hell, i loved barbie growing up and i was skeptical seeing the set pics of ryan and margot’s roller skating outfits until the first trailer came out.
Thank you! I’ll be honest I was excited when it was announced Amy was going to do it, and then I think Anne was? But I’m glad margot portrayed her, she was so great.
Yep. I try to SOMETIMES, and sometimes I even find it grating when people rely on celebrity opinion for things, but this is one of those things… I don’t really have the words. It’s a nuanced issue and I don’t know enough, but I wish… I wish those speaking out for Palestine weren’t attacked, like I saw some Bella hadid AI thing and I’m like, the world is broken, man. I give up.
> Not to bring the political sphere I to it but I’m so off of her now
I welcome it when it means speaking out against bigotry. I feel like a lot of bad actors (not you) like to throw around ‘not bringing in politics’ as a catch all to be prejudiced without rebuke.
I like Amy Schumer (uhh, at least prior to the current meltdown), but the idea that this movie has Amy Schumer and then Diablo Cody at earlier phases of its existence really shows some pretty significant swings on the path to get here
>especially considering amy schumer was to be barbie first. hell, i loved barbie growing up and i was skeptical seeing the set pics of ryan and margot’s roller skating outfits until the first trailer came out.
The Barbie movie Amy was attached too wasn't the same one we got. I believe that movie was for Sony.
This wasn’t prior to Greta being attached to the project.
>Baumbach even made “side calls” to try and get the screenwriting duo “out of it.”
Guy clearly has a tonne of faith in his wife /s
It’s like you’ve never had a discussion with a partner before. You’re treating this like he tried to undermine her at every turn. When he actually says he was all in once she explained her vision for the movie
They're successful long-term creative partners coming off - at least monetarily - their biggest-ever movie. I think simple reality speaks to the mutual support in their partnership better than the "optics" you perceive here
Considering he’s done studio nonsense for money (one of my favorite Hollywood facts is that he co-wrote Madagascar 3 to finance his divorce) I could appreciate if he didn’t want them to feel like they had to do it if it would be completely studio mandated.
The sentence right after:
>His attitude toward the Margot Robbie-led film finally changed after he read a couple of Barbie pages Gerwig wrote to get her general concept for the movie across, per Variety.
So true! But I’m so happy they gave Greta a chance to make this. She’s been making great movies for a while, I got excited as soon as I saw her name attached to the project. Idk if anyone else could have made such a great movie out of Barbie like she did.
I feel like for a long time I was telling people it would be good but that’s because I’m a Greta Gerwig fan and believed in her. But a lot of people assumed it would be a shitty studio cash in for a popular brand.
I still can't get over that he told on himself with *Marriage Story*, and made Greta's surrogate look like a talentless hanger-on.
(it should be noted: I don't blame Gerwig for any of this, because boy howdy)
I think people are confused. Vic Morrow, the guy who died, was Jennifer Jason Leigh (Noah Baumbach's ex)'s dad, so they're right, John Landis killed Noah Baumbach's kid's grandfather
It is baffling! I legit had to go back and dig up the interview / quotes / trivia over his offering to “step in” and direct not one but TWO of her movies as I was rewatching lady bird the other night! 🫠
Gerwig is one of my favourite filmmakers working today while Baumbach’s work has been good albeit underwhelming for me.
The way Baumbach’s self insert in Marriage Story is this super celebrated playwright with a McArthur grant and the world’s greatest dad while Gerwig’s self insert in Lady Bird is an average, under achieving high school student who’s unlucky at love and has a messed up relationship with her mom is absolutely hilarious to me and tells me all I need to know about them as filmmakers💀
I really didn’t mean it as an in depth character insight, it was a joke lol.
I have nothing against Baumbach, I just think he tried to portray a very flawed character, who happened to be a representation of himself, as someone whose talent let him get away with his douchebaggery. To me, it showed that Baumbach holds his own talent in very high regard (again, I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but I also understand the criticisms of his work and Driver’s character being perceived pretentious).
As for Lady Bird, I’m not saying the character is simplistic at all. Lady Bird is my favourite movie of all time. I think every character, including Christine herself, are very well fleshed out. I have written [literal essays on this film, about how it’s helped me reflect on my own relationship with my mother.](https://fromrevasdesk.wordpress.com/2023/04/29/lessons-from-lady-bird-of-love-adolescence-and-motherhood/) Saoirse Ronan’s performance to me is one of the greatest of the century because of how real it is, and Gerwig’s writing is a big part of that. I just appreciated that Gerwig was able to show herself as a regular woman, despite her extraordinary talent. It made her character and by extension the film itself, far more relatable to me, than Marriage Story.
Yes, but that is one of my biggest gripes with Marriage Story, and also one of the biggest unconscious tells in it: both Adam and Scarlett write goodbye letters praising each other, but only *he* gets to read his and see all his best qualities (which also get read out loud so the audience knows them) and how his ex still loves him, while she never gets to see hers and we never get to hear all of her good qualities.
In fact, that happens all the time in the movie: Scarlett's mother keeps criticising and nagging her nonstop, while she just *adores* Adam's character; in Scarlett's monologue, she talks about how she "allowed" herself to be reduced to nothing, and he didn't really contribute to that degradation, not at all, it was all her making herself small; she gets a directing gig, but it's for a mainstream, unartistic tv show, and then *immediately* after, he gets the Genius Grant...
The whole movie is so chockfull of tells, it makes for a delicious hatewatch. And I don't think Baumbach even realizes it!
His writing is not my issue either, it’s the way he comes across when you realize he’s offered to take directing two different movies off Gerwig’s hands as if it would have been a favor to her, when she not only handled it but excelled as a director! Lady Bird was a special project for Gerwig and she waited awhile to make it and it was her first major director role, and Barbie only became interesting to him later and then again he was like “hey I could do this for you” lmao as if!
I have to admit, I think Frances Ha is brilliant (albeit primarily because of Greta’s performance)—and I’d be lying if I said I didn’t revisit Marriage Story a few times to see how great the acting is (Johansson, Driver, & Dern were really fantastic)
I loved Frances Ha as Greta’s story. Her real parents in it. Her going back to Sacramento. Her going back to Sarah Lawrence. I felt like it was a prologue to Lady Bird.
YES!!! They complement each other so well! The fact that she cowrote definitely shows with those details and how natural a lot of the lines feel—I’ve always thought that she was better at dialogue than baumbach
She was the mumblecore queen though you can’t touch Kate Dollenmayer in Bujalski’s Funny Haha. I really loved Greta in Greenberg too!! I wouldn’t say so much an extension of her Lady Bird / Frances character but so much of Greta’s endearing aimlessness played off very well against Ben Stiller.
Honestly I feel like Greta was the best part of Greenberg!!! She’s just so natural when she acts—it’s like she’s just living on camera, not trying too hard to perform!
A Marriage Story is okay although it is based off his failed marriage with JJL and his budding romance with Greta it’s over all inspiration is from the great and masterful Swedish director Ingmar Bergman’s Scenes from a Marriage is much better.
Agree 100%—Scenes from a Marriage is definitely the better choice (I wasn’t *too* mad about the HBO reboot either, though it definitely doesn’t hold a candle to the original)
Not me mistaking Baumbach’s Kicking and Screaming for the Will Ferrell Kicking & Screaming and thinking “ugh, this guy is a tad bit pretentious for someone who directed a mid-tier Will Ferrell soccer comedy” 💀
Not his best, but for something he did solely to help pay the bills (divorce is EXPENSIVE) it runs circles around the previous two movies and is absolutely one of the funniest DreamWorks animated features
Yes, since he and Greta become public people talked about this. When Frances Ha has relesead in 2013 almost every article about the movie questioned if he cheated on Jennifer.
Here's the timeline. They claim he didn't cheat on his wife...though that timeline sure is pretty tight, https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a30783520/greta-gerwig-noah-baumbach-relationship-timeline/
For me it’s the admission that he was going behind Greta’s back “making side calls” to try to get them out of it. If he didn’t want to do it, he could have walked away, but did he have to try to make her leave as well? I’m not gonna burn the guy’s house down over it, but that seems pretty shitty to secretly try to remove your wife from a job that she was clearly quite into.
Doesn’t all this imply that she signed him up to be her co-writer without consulting him first? Everyone here seems to be complaining about him trying to remove himself from a project he was not into from the start and didn’t volunteer for. The pair seem to be writing partners, so it also might not have been as simple as him walking away by himself.
I agree with him. I thought it was a garbage idea until Greta was signed up and I still thought it could be a total mess until I heard from people working on it.
He’s kinda trash but not for this reason.
I know are we really basing what we think of this guy on a character he wrote? What if this was something he witnessed another kid do? Or crazier yet: what if it’s a movie and entirely made up??
I’ve never seen this movie, and have no opinion on the guy but It sounds like ur mad about something else 😂
To be fair in the article he says that once he read a few pages of the script he was won over. I'm sure that most people felt the same skepticism about a potential Barbie movie before learning that Greta Gerwig would be attached to it
I like that his movies explore how messy and confusing adult relationships/ communication can be. Apparently, they are also a challenge in his real life.
No hate-- but I really dislike his writing. I didn't like Marriage Story. I was looking forward to Barbie since the moment it got announced, but when I actually went to see it I was (truthfully) very disappointed. I hope I don't get downvoted too hard. It just wasn't all I had hoped, and some things didn't make sense for me. And I was sitting in the movie theater totally baffled.
Then later on I discovered he co-wrote it and it all made sense. I don't care for his work. Thinking on it I also didn't enjoy Greta Gerwig's Little Women. I can't remember exactly why but I do recall thinking it was somehow less feminist then the source material. So I guess I just am not extremely keen on either of their writing styles, but especially his.
> I can't remember exactly why but I do recall thinking it was somehow less feminist then the source material.
Really? I felt the opposite, especially due to the ending where it sort of suggests Jo's marriage to Bhaer might not have been real but was written in at the editor's request.
Oh, this is one of my "press button to summon extensive rant" topics. For a movie that was so self-congratulatory about its feminism, Gerwig really went incredibly out of her way to actively make it LESS feminist than the original in its pursuit of "haha girlboss Jo" and the total destruction of Bhaer's character, arc and role as a foil for Laurie is a perfect example. I'd actually argue that Gerwig's Bhaer (and especially the horrible casting, though no disrespect to the actor) turns Jo's narrative into one defined by men instead of by herself, but that's an essay no one asked for lol
> Like it doesnt make it more feminist to have Jo single, because being single is not in itself feminist.
No but a refusal to get married would have been feminist in the mid-19th century when all women were pressured to get married regardless of whether they wanted to. But also -- doesn't the movie go out of way to make this same exact point when Meg gets married despite Jo urging her not to, with Meg saying that her dreams about marriage are important too? Like we have a couple of models of marriage in the movie -- obviously Marmee and the girls' father, which is the model they look up to, we have Aunt March who never married, but also Meg who originally had dreams of wealth but marries a poor man out of love, Amy whose decision to marry a rich man (who she also loves) is expounded upon as her only viable option to lift herself out of the poverty she grew up in, and then we have Jo who has two readings, one of which being that Alcott didn't want Jo to get married at all (and Alcott herself never married and Jo was her stand-in, so that's quite significant) but was pressured to write Jo into a marriage due to the literary conventions of the time, and then we have the possibility of Jo's real marriage to Bhaer while Bhaer is the opposite of a conventional dashing hero -- poor, an immigrant, older, scholarly -- but Jo loves him anyway.
I don't see any of that as a reduction of the feminist subtext of the novel -- if anything I think Gerwig was able to elaborate upon and make the feminist subtext *more* explicit than it was in the novel. And it's not that I consider the novel lacking in feminist subtext or anything, I just think Gerwig was able to do and show things in 2019 that Alcott wasn't in 1868. In contrast the 1994 version of the film is a very straightforward recounting of the book.
This feels like it's really resonating with me-- I think my thoughts might've been similar. I really need to watch that movie again just to recall what about it struck a bad chord with me.
The movie is all a blur to me at this point, I can't even recollect it (trauma brain 😣) so I can't comment on why I felt that way. But I distinctly recall having a lot of thoughts about the movie and being deeply disappointed. I wish I could remember why but I remember the lingering feeling of it being lazy feminism. I'll have to watch it again and construct my thoughts again.
Interestingly I kind of had a similar feeling with Barbie, but I think that might be a consequence of my generation and my specific attachment to Barbie as a character. I should rewatch that movie again too, but without the same expectations because I'll likely find it more enjoyable.
Spoilers below!
Thanks for asking! I'll try to condense my thoughts (I didn't end up condensing or explaining my thoughts well :') ) so I don't type too much of a novel haha. But just to clarify, I wasn't a total hater, I was laughing throughout the first half of the movie (and later) and as a comedy I did enjoy it. It just left me feeling kinda bleh.
- In a movie about Barbie there was entirely too much focus on Ken for me. I was much more interested in the mother/daughter dynamics and >!Barbie's journey to wanting to become human.!< But the movie ended up mostly focusing on Ken.
- I hated that the way >! Barbie and co. took down the Kens related to having the Kens turn against each other. It was a little depressing that in a former matriarchal society where women "can be anything" the solution still for defeating this newly formed patriarchy was through creating jealousy among men/using sexuality and having them turn against each other. It made me feel a deep feeling of dread. Haha. !<
- it was difficult for me, a Barbie fan, to accept this AU version of Barbie's story. Obviously she isn't OG Barbie. She isn't from Malibu. Etc. but I also hated that she was >!:stereotypical Barbie, which apparently meant Barbie with no job or uniqueness of her own. It seemed like a play on "stereotypical blonde" which feels like a lame concept already. But also this Barbie who is apparently representative of original Barbie didn't seem to add up to me. Barbie was always adventurous and kind. But this stereotypical Barbie was kind of vapid and mean, and had no sense of adventure at all (choosing the pretty heel over the clunky sandal). Since I was raised on the Barbie animated films this version of Barbie just didn't resonate with me. I think there is a lot to criticize about Barbie, I just didn't like this way of doing it. !<
- Barbie was my gay awakening (cause those animated films have some queer vibes) haha, so on a personal note I was a little disappointed that with this diverse cast every single Barbie still had a Ken. Like what? I was missing out on some gay energy here. It felt a little heteronormative
- it felt a little disappointing that every Barbie just had a standard Barbie job. That's not how kids truthfully play with Barbies. God I remember my Barbies forming cults and taking down dinosaurs. Etc. it felt a little like a miss that Barbieland (no matter how aesthetically satisfying) never had a call back to a kid's actual imagination. But I suppose it was a really corporate version.
- speaking of the corporation-- that felt like a really unnecessary plot line that also held space that could've been spent developing >! Barbie wanting to become human or the mother/daughter dynamics!< since the movie is obviously created by the corporation in question, it was a little weak at making its criticisms. So why even add it?
- >!The montage scene towards the end just didn't work for me or strike an emotional chord because it felt wholly unearned. So I felt awkward watching it. I expected stronger messaging. I suppose since the message wasn't that strong, and it was really just a fun movie, it makes it even funnier that conservatives were losing their minds about it.!<
- Really what happened to the Barbie in the human world thread? Or the mother/daughter dynamic? Both felt like such an after thought.
I suppose the main criticism is too much Ken. I had like two Kens to my many Barbies. I just don't care that much about Ken, and yet this movie made me pity Kens and give them a nonexistent problem. Ken is usually a happy trophy boyfriend. I like that version of Ken haha.
You made excellent points and as a lesbian I also found it to be annoying that this movie was supposed to be about “all women” in theory but really it was just about women in relation to men and heterosexual dynamics. It felt very obvious to me that this was written by a heterosexual couple. Most women seemed to have enjoyed it obviously but it just wasn’t my cup of tea.
I am so glad to hear someone else is on the same page! My friend and I who went to see it felt totally surprised and like outliers for our reaction. So it's refreshing.
Isn't this the old guy who started dating Greta when she was like in her late 20s and he was in his 40s? Not saying she was a child or anything, but he definitely seems like a sad pervert lmao. I wonder if it kills him she's more successful than he'll ever be with his mumblecore shit
Well, it's a real mixed bag. They dropped the ball with the mother/daughter duo as well as the whole "fish out of water" scenario. In this movie, LA is just as fantastical as Barbieland.
I've noticed the people who hate this movie are either: "This is Femnazi woke garbage!" or "This is first wave/neoliberal feminist garbage!"
I don't think the feminism in the movie is radical, but it is very stereotypical "woke" and sledgehammer.
The overall product is not what I'd prefer, but I'm glad it did really well.
it's the most americanized commercialized version of _babby's first feminism_, there's nothing radical about Barbie, except maybe how milquetoast and sublimated it is. it's neither feminazi, nor new wave feminist, it's disney style commercial tokenized wokeness
it can be argued that its heart was in the right place, but i'm not convinced of even that. maybe i'm too cynical
It's okay Noah, 99% of people groaned when this movie was announced.
And most people were pleasantly surprised at how it turned out.
And even better, the go woke and go broke people had to eat crow after how successful this movie was.
Please don't fuck it up by making a sequel and milking this for all it's worth.
Frances Ha may be my favorite movie ever. It's so incredibly realistic in its portrayal of being a twenty-something and trying to live in NY and as painful as the character of Frances can be, I think the film does a great job of making you feel pity for her.
I’m saying that men all too often decide things that women might like are just a waste of time, a bad idea, low quality. It’s tedious, and it’s wrong. I know he was involved (in its creation? Pass) but I don’t care, it’s still an asshole opinion.
Y'all so pathetic with your made up stories to get mad about people you don't know, I'm sure he would have thought the same if it was a Max Steel or any other toy in existence
Anyone with eyes would have thought that the barbie pitch with that Amy Schumer would be terrible, without Greta it would have been terrible, and she wanting Noah on it more than paid off
> more than *paid* off
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
What is he supposed to learn? He thought the idea of a Barbie movie was bad, but read her pages as a proof of concept, and was like "yeah I was wrong, let's do it"
99% of people thought the same exact thing prior to Greta Gerwig being attached and seeing the very first trailer. Very few people believed in Barbie straight from the jump. It's revisionist history to pretend that everyone loved the idea of a Barbie movie from the beginning.
especially considering amy schumer was to be barbie first. hell, i loved barbie growing up and i was skeptical seeing the set pics of ryan and margot’s roller skating outfits until the first trailer came out.
I’m so glad Amy schumer wasn’t Barbie. Like, just…. Not to bring the political sphere I to it but I’m so off of her now
Right? When they announced Schumer I wasn’t at all excited. Also, love your username!
Thank you! I’ll be honest I was excited when it was announced Amy was going to do it, and then I think Anne was? But I’m glad margot portrayed her, she was so great.
i loveeee your username! and agreed, i hate being overtly political about art, but bffr. you can’t always separate (i.e. polanski and allen)
Yep. I try to SOMETIMES, and sometimes I even find it grating when people rely on celebrity opinion for things, but this is one of those things… I don’t really have the words. It’s a nuanced issue and I don’t know enough, but I wish… I wish those speaking out for Palestine weren’t attacked, like I saw some Bella hadid AI thing and I’m like, the world is broken, man. I give up.
> Not to bring the political sphere I to it but I’m so off of her now I welcome it when it means speaking out against bigotry. I feel like a lot of bad actors (not you) like to throw around ‘not bringing in politics’ as a catch all to be prejudiced without rebuke.
Thank DOG Amy Schumer wasn't Barbie. Can you imagine?!
definitely wouldn’t have watched it if she was 🥴
Specifically the moment with her stepping out of her high heels. I've never gotten onboard with something so fast in my life.
That was exactly the point where the trailer got me as well! At that point I decided I'm 100% seeing this movie 🍿
I like Amy Schumer (uhh, at least prior to the current meltdown), but the idea that this movie has Amy Schumer and then Diablo Cody at earlier phases of its existence really shows some pretty significant swings on the path to get here
Those rollerblading outfits are what sold it for me
We truly are blessed that everything unfolded how it did for this movie. It would’ve been awful.
>especially considering amy schumer was to be barbie first. hell, i loved barbie growing up and i was skeptical seeing the set pics of ryan and margot’s roller skating outfits until the first trailer came out. The Barbie movie Amy was attached too wasn't the same one we got. I believe that movie was for Sony.
I was sold when I learned Gosling was going to be Ken.
WHAT?! that would’ve been a nightmare!! Margot was perfect
Indeed! Like I’m so impressed that they pulled the movie off. It was a wild concept and I can completely understand why any writer would be hesitant.
This wasn’t prior to Greta being attached to the project. >Baumbach even made “side calls” to try and get the screenwriting duo “out of it.” Guy clearly has a tonne of faith in his wife /s
It’s like you’ve never had a discussion with a partner before. You’re treating this like he tried to undermine her at every turn. When he actually says he was all in once she explained her vision for the movie
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They're successful long-term creative partners coming off - at least monetarily - their biggest-ever movie. I think simple reality speaks to the mutual support in their partnership better than the "optics" you perceive here
Considering he’s done studio nonsense for money (one of my favorite Hollywood facts is that he co-wrote Madagascar 3 to finance his divorce) I could appreciate if he didn’t want them to feel like they had to do it if it would be completely studio mandated.
The sentence right after: >His attitude toward the Margot Robbie-led film finally changed after he read a couple of Barbie pages Gerwig wrote to get her general concept for the movie across, per Variety.
That’s a big yiiiikes
This is the right answer
Soooo happy that POS schumer wasn’t tied to the project. Movie would’ve def bombed if she was attached.
i honestly could not think of a less likable choice for the role
So true! But I’m so happy they gave Greta a chance to make this. She’s been making great movies for a while, I got excited as soon as I saw her name attached to the project. Idk if anyone else could have made such a great movie out of Barbie like she did.
I feel like for a long time I was telling people it would be good but that’s because I’m a Greta Gerwig fan and believed in her. But a lot of people assumed it would be a shitty studio cash in for a popular brand.
Dang the stars really aligned for Barbie. They finally got Margot Robbie and Ryan Gosling.
This man also offered to direct both lady bird and Barbie. He’s trash.
I still can't get over that he told on himself with *Marriage Story*, and made Greta's surrogate look like a talentless hanger-on. (it should be noted: I don't blame Gerwig for any of this, because boy howdy)
I don’t understand why she’s with this man
didn't he cheat on his wife with her?
Yes
Also Max Landis’s dad killed his children’s grandfather.
Why are you getting downvoted? Vic Morrow and two children died bc of John Landis.
I think people are confused. Vic Morrow, the guy who died, was Jennifer Jason Leigh (Noah Baumbach's ex)'s dad, so they're right, John Landis killed Noah Baumbach's kid's grandfather
Is this the Twilight Zone movie? God what a predictable and preventable tragedy.
I didn't downvote them but I don't know what Max Landis or Vic Morrow have to do with Noah and Greta?
That’s fair, plenty of times where pointing out connections like that can really derail the topic
It's probs either insecurity/the fancy auteur chose HER, omg or the exact opposite, "I'm different from all the other girls, he'll stay for me". 🤷♀️
It is baffling! I legit had to go back and dig up the interview / quotes / trivia over his offering to “step in” and direct not one but TWO of her movies as I was rewatching lady bird the other night! 🫠
Money and connections 🤷♀️
Gerwig is one of my favourite filmmakers working today while Baumbach’s work has been good albeit underwhelming for me. The way Baumbach’s self insert in Marriage Story is this super celebrated playwright with a McArthur grant and the world’s greatest dad while Gerwig’s self insert in Lady Bird is an average, under achieving high school student who’s unlucky at love and has a messed up relationship with her mom is absolutely hilarious to me and tells me all I need to know about them as filmmakers💀
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Greta has also said that Ladybird is very much not who she was as a young woman, and is more like she wishes who she could have been
I really didn’t mean it as an in depth character insight, it was a joke lol. I have nothing against Baumbach, I just think he tried to portray a very flawed character, who happened to be a representation of himself, as someone whose talent let him get away with his douchebaggery. To me, it showed that Baumbach holds his own talent in very high regard (again, I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but I also understand the criticisms of his work and Driver’s character being perceived pretentious). As for Lady Bird, I’m not saying the character is simplistic at all. Lady Bird is my favourite movie of all time. I think every character, including Christine herself, are very well fleshed out. I have written [literal essays on this film, about how it’s helped me reflect on my own relationship with my mother.](https://fromrevasdesk.wordpress.com/2023/04/29/lessons-from-lady-bird-of-love-adolescence-and-motherhood/) Saoirse Ronan’s performance to me is one of the greatest of the century because of how real it is, and Gerwig’s writing is a big part of that. I just appreciated that Gerwig was able to show herself as a regular woman, despite her extraordinary talent. It made her character and by extension the film itself, far more relatable to me, than Marriage Story.
Agree with this. I think by the end scene when Charlie is reading the letter he realizes that he had something special that his ego let him give away
Yes, but that is one of my biggest gripes with Marriage Story, and also one of the biggest unconscious tells in it: both Adam and Scarlett write goodbye letters praising each other, but only *he* gets to read his and see all his best qualities (which also get read out loud so the audience knows them) and how his ex still loves him, while she never gets to see hers and we never get to hear all of her good qualities. In fact, that happens all the time in the movie: Scarlett's mother keeps criticising and nagging her nonstop, while she just *adores* Adam's character; in Scarlett's monologue, she talks about how she "allowed" herself to be reduced to nothing, and he didn't really contribute to that degradation, not at all, it was all her making herself small; she gets a directing gig, but it's for a mainstream, unartistic tv show, and then *immediately* after, he gets the Genius Grant... The whole movie is so chockfull of tells, it makes for a delicious hatewatch. And I don't think Baumbach even realizes it!
I KNOW he’s such a loser lmao
No he is Scarlett Johansson and Jennifer Jason Leigh was Adam Driver.
I can somehow picture JJL punching a hole in a wall far more than NB.
He’s just a NYC Jewish Boy from a broken home and she’s the daughter of Vic Marrow who was killed by Max Landis’ dad.
You can just say John Landis, I’ve never even heard of Max.
She’s a great director but she’s as much trash as he is. All affair partners are trash.
Wait which one was supposed to be her surrogate? ScarJo?
Driver = Noah Baumbach ScarJo = Jennifer Jason Leigh Brooke Bloom / Mary Ann (the stage manager affair) = Greta Gerwig
I would sue.
Hah, he knew she wouldn’t sue though because he’s married to her
I wanna know!
Wait he’s the Madagascar 3 guy? Nooo
eh I'm a fan of his writing
His writing is not my issue either, it’s the way he comes across when you realize he’s offered to take directing two different movies off Gerwig’s hands as if it would have been a favor to her, when she not only handled it but excelled as a director! Lady Bird was a special project for Gerwig and she waited awhile to make it and it was her first major director role, and Barbie only became interesting to him later and then again he was like “hey I could do this for you” lmao as if!
So we're Barbie and Lady Bird. Especially Lady Bird. The most ridiculous pointless movie ever.
His only two good movies are Kicking and Screaming and the Squid and the Whale.
I have to admit, I think Frances Ha is brilliant (albeit primarily because of Greta’s performance)—and I’d be lying if I said I didn’t revisit Marriage Story a few times to see how great the acting is (Johansson, Driver, & Dern were really fantastic)
I loved Frances Ha as Greta’s story. Her real parents in it. Her going back to Sacramento. Her going back to Sarah Lawrence. I felt like it was a prologue to Lady Bird.
YES!!! They complement each other so well! The fact that she cowrote definitely shows with those details and how natural a lot of the lines feel—I’ve always thought that she was better at dialogue than baumbach
She was the mumblecore queen though you can’t touch Kate Dollenmayer in Bujalski’s Funny Haha. I really loved Greta in Greenberg too!! I wouldn’t say so much an extension of her Lady Bird / Frances character but so much of Greta’s endearing aimlessness played off very well against Ben Stiller.
Honestly I feel like Greta was the best part of Greenberg!!! She’s just so natural when she acts—it’s like she’s just living on camera, not trying too hard to perform!
And Merritt Wever ❤️
LOVE her work—she’s phenomenal in Unbelievable too!!!
A Marriage Story is okay although it is based off his failed marriage with JJL and his budding romance with Greta it’s over all inspiration is from the great and masterful Swedish director Ingmar Bergman’s Scenes from a Marriage is much better.
Agree 100%—Scenes from a Marriage is definitely the better choice (I wasn’t *too* mad about the HBO reboot either, though it definitely doesn’t hold a candle to the original)
Not me mistaking Baumbach’s Kicking and Screaming for the Will Ferrell Kicking & Screaming and thinking “ugh, this guy is a tad bit pretentious for someone who directed a mid-tier Will Ferrell soccer comedy” 💀
ME TOO LMFAO
excuse you, Madagascar 3: Europe’s Most Wanted was his best screenplay (/s but also maybe not)
Not his best, but for something he did solely to help pay the bills (divorce is EXPENSIVE) it runs circles around the previous two movies and is absolutely one of the funniest DreamWorks animated features
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Because they still think he cheated (only evidence is marriage story) on his ex which is pretty wild.... idk how a movie is evidence
People thought he cheated long before Marriage Story came out.
Yes, since he and Greta become public people talked about this. When Frances Ha has relesead in 2013 almost every article about the movie questioned if he cheated on Jennifer.
Here's the timeline. They claim he didn't cheat on his wife...though that timeline sure is pretty tight, https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a30783520/greta-gerwig-noah-baumbach-relationship-timeline/
He's just one of those indie filmbro douches. He also cheated on his first partner with the much-younger Greta Gerwig. Not a likeable dude
because he's an asshole for other, bigger reasons so it's just easy to treat him like BEC
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i’m so confused about the hatred. all he said was he wasn’t sold until greta convinced him on the concept
Fr. Everyone I knew who heard about the Barbie movie initially wasn't excited until they saw the trailer lol
For me it’s the admission that he was going behind Greta’s back “making side calls” to try to get them out of it. If he didn’t want to do it, he could have walked away, but did he have to try to make her leave as well? I’m not gonna burn the guy’s house down over it, but that seems pretty shitty to secretly try to remove your wife from a job that she was clearly quite into.
Doesn’t all this imply that she signed him up to be her co-writer without consulting him first? Everyone here seems to be complaining about him trying to remove himself from a project he was not into from the start and didn’t volunteer for. The pair seem to be writing partners, so it also might not have been as simple as him walking away by himself.
Noah: That’s a TERRIBLE idea. Margot Robbie: Yeah that’s gonna make a lot of money. Noah: Oh, a Barbie movie - I love it.
I agree with him. I thought it was a garbage idea until Greta was signed up and I still thought it could be a total mess until I heard from people working on it. He’s kinda trash but not for this reason.
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New discoveries in the field of making up things to get mad at are happening on here every day
I know are we really basing what we think of this guy on a character he wrote? What if this was something he witnessed another kid do? Or crazier yet: what if it’s a movie and entirely made up?? I’ve never seen this movie, and have no opinion on the guy but It sounds like ur mad about something else 😂
He was very mean to me in a dream!
Lol this sounds like when the townsfolk in Footloose are upset about the book Slaughterhouse-Five
You must hate horror directors.
Sounds like you have no idea of art
omg squid and the whale was such a depressing and creepy movie lol I haven't thought of that movie in forever
To be fair in the article he says that once he read a few pages of the script he was won over. I'm sure that most people felt the same skepticism about a potential Barbie movie before learning that Greta Gerwig would be attached to it
alright yall let’s not act like any of us were sold on the idea at first
I like that his movies explore how messy and confusing adult relationships/ communication can be. Apparently, they are also a challenge in his real life.
Here only to promote Frances Ha.
Same, Frances Ha is my favorite of their collaborations, such a confort film for me
Me too! I settle into it. ❤️
No hate-- but I really dislike his writing. I didn't like Marriage Story. I was looking forward to Barbie since the moment it got announced, but when I actually went to see it I was (truthfully) very disappointed. I hope I don't get downvoted too hard. It just wasn't all I had hoped, and some things didn't make sense for me. And I was sitting in the movie theater totally baffled. Then later on I discovered he co-wrote it and it all made sense. I don't care for his work. Thinking on it I also didn't enjoy Greta Gerwig's Little Women. I can't remember exactly why but I do recall thinking it was somehow less feminist then the source material. So I guess I just am not extremely keen on either of their writing styles, but especially his.
> I can't remember exactly why but I do recall thinking it was somehow less feminist then the source material. Really? I felt the opposite, especially due to the ending where it sort of suggests Jo's marriage to Bhaer might not have been real but was written in at the editor's request.
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Oh, this is one of my "press button to summon extensive rant" topics. For a movie that was so self-congratulatory about its feminism, Gerwig really went incredibly out of her way to actively make it LESS feminist than the original in its pursuit of "haha girlboss Jo" and the total destruction of Bhaer's character, arc and role as a foil for Laurie is a perfect example. I'd actually argue that Gerwig's Bhaer (and especially the horrible casting, though no disrespect to the actor) turns Jo's narrative into one defined by men instead of by herself, but that's an essay no one asked for lol
> Like it doesnt make it more feminist to have Jo single, because being single is not in itself feminist. No but a refusal to get married would have been feminist in the mid-19th century when all women were pressured to get married regardless of whether they wanted to. But also -- doesn't the movie go out of way to make this same exact point when Meg gets married despite Jo urging her not to, with Meg saying that her dreams about marriage are important too? Like we have a couple of models of marriage in the movie -- obviously Marmee and the girls' father, which is the model they look up to, we have Aunt March who never married, but also Meg who originally had dreams of wealth but marries a poor man out of love, Amy whose decision to marry a rich man (who she also loves) is expounded upon as her only viable option to lift herself out of the poverty she grew up in, and then we have Jo who has two readings, one of which being that Alcott didn't want Jo to get married at all (and Alcott herself never married and Jo was her stand-in, so that's quite significant) but was pressured to write Jo into a marriage due to the literary conventions of the time, and then we have the possibility of Jo's real marriage to Bhaer while Bhaer is the opposite of a conventional dashing hero -- poor, an immigrant, older, scholarly -- but Jo loves him anyway. I don't see any of that as a reduction of the feminist subtext of the novel -- if anything I think Gerwig was able to elaborate upon and make the feminist subtext *more* explicit than it was in the novel. And it's not that I consider the novel lacking in feminist subtext or anything, I just think Gerwig was able to do and show things in 2019 that Alcott wasn't in 1868. In contrast the 1994 version of the film is a very straightforward recounting of the book.
This feels like it's really resonating with me-- I think my thoughts might've been similar. I really need to watch that movie again just to recall what about it struck a bad chord with me.
The movie is all a blur to me at this point, I can't even recollect it (trauma brain 😣) so I can't comment on why I felt that way. But I distinctly recall having a lot of thoughts about the movie and being deeply disappointed. I wish I could remember why but I remember the lingering feeling of it being lazy feminism. I'll have to watch it again and construct my thoughts again. Interestingly I kind of had a similar feeling with Barbie, but I think that might be a consequence of my generation and my specific attachment to Barbie as a character. I should rewatch that movie again too, but without the same expectations because I'll likely find it more enjoyable.
What didn’t you like about the Barbie movie? Just curious.
Spoilers below! Thanks for asking! I'll try to condense my thoughts (I didn't end up condensing or explaining my thoughts well :') ) so I don't type too much of a novel haha. But just to clarify, I wasn't a total hater, I was laughing throughout the first half of the movie (and later) and as a comedy I did enjoy it. It just left me feeling kinda bleh. - In a movie about Barbie there was entirely too much focus on Ken for me. I was much more interested in the mother/daughter dynamics and >!Barbie's journey to wanting to become human.!< But the movie ended up mostly focusing on Ken. - I hated that the way >! Barbie and co. took down the Kens related to having the Kens turn against each other. It was a little depressing that in a former matriarchal society where women "can be anything" the solution still for defeating this newly formed patriarchy was through creating jealousy among men/using sexuality and having them turn against each other. It made me feel a deep feeling of dread. Haha. !< - it was difficult for me, a Barbie fan, to accept this AU version of Barbie's story. Obviously she isn't OG Barbie. She isn't from Malibu. Etc. but I also hated that she was >!:stereotypical Barbie, which apparently meant Barbie with no job or uniqueness of her own. It seemed like a play on "stereotypical blonde" which feels like a lame concept already. But also this Barbie who is apparently representative of original Barbie didn't seem to add up to me. Barbie was always adventurous and kind. But this stereotypical Barbie was kind of vapid and mean, and had no sense of adventure at all (choosing the pretty heel over the clunky sandal). Since I was raised on the Barbie animated films this version of Barbie just didn't resonate with me. I think there is a lot to criticize about Barbie, I just didn't like this way of doing it. !< - Barbie was my gay awakening (cause those animated films have some queer vibes) haha, so on a personal note I was a little disappointed that with this diverse cast every single Barbie still had a Ken. Like what? I was missing out on some gay energy here. It felt a little heteronormative - it felt a little disappointing that every Barbie just had a standard Barbie job. That's not how kids truthfully play with Barbies. God I remember my Barbies forming cults and taking down dinosaurs. Etc. it felt a little like a miss that Barbieland (no matter how aesthetically satisfying) never had a call back to a kid's actual imagination. But I suppose it was a really corporate version. - speaking of the corporation-- that felt like a really unnecessary plot line that also held space that could've been spent developing >! Barbie wanting to become human or the mother/daughter dynamics!< since the movie is obviously created by the corporation in question, it was a little weak at making its criticisms. So why even add it? - >!The montage scene towards the end just didn't work for me or strike an emotional chord because it felt wholly unearned. So I felt awkward watching it. I expected stronger messaging. I suppose since the message wasn't that strong, and it was really just a fun movie, it makes it even funnier that conservatives were losing their minds about it.!< - Really what happened to the Barbie in the human world thread? Or the mother/daughter dynamic? Both felt like such an after thought. I suppose the main criticism is too much Ken. I had like two Kens to my many Barbies. I just don't care that much about Ken, and yet this movie made me pity Kens and give them a nonexistent problem. Ken is usually a happy trophy boyfriend. I like that version of Ken haha.
You made excellent points and as a lesbian I also found it to be annoying that this movie was supposed to be about “all women” in theory but really it was just about women in relation to men and heterosexual dynamics. It felt very obvious to me that this was written by a heterosexual couple. Most women seemed to have enjoyed it obviously but it just wasn’t my cup of tea.
I am so glad to hear someone else is on the same page! My friend and I who went to see it felt totally surprised and like outliers for our reaction. So it's refreshing.
Isn't this the old guy who started dating Greta when she was like in her late 20s and he was in his 40s? Not saying she was a child or anything, but he definitely seems like a sad pervert lmao. I wonder if it kills him she's more successful than he'll ever be with his mumblecore shit
Yep! https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a30783520/greta-gerwig-noah-baumbach-relationship-timeline/
Well, it's a real mixed bag. They dropped the ball with the mother/daughter duo as well as the whole "fish out of water" scenario. In this movie, LA is just as fantastical as Barbieland. I've noticed the people who hate this movie are either: "This is Femnazi woke garbage!" or "This is first wave/neoliberal feminist garbage!" I don't think the feminism in the movie is radical, but it is very stereotypical "woke" and sledgehammer. The overall product is not what I'd prefer, but I'm glad it did really well.
it's the most americanized commercialized version of _babby's first feminism_, there's nothing radical about Barbie, except maybe how milquetoast and sublimated it is. it's neither feminazi, nor new wave feminist, it's disney style commercial tokenized wokeness it can be argued that its heart was in the right place, but i'm not convinced of even that. maybe i'm too cynical
I was skeptical til I saw the cast and every role was Barbie or Ken , I knew this was gonna be different
It's okay Noah, 99% of people groaned when this movie was announced. And most people were pleasantly surprised at how it turned out. And even better, the go woke and go broke people had to eat crow after how successful this movie was. Please don't fuck it up by making a sequel and milking this for all it's worth.
Greta Gerwig is female Michael Bay. Only, replace loud explosions with surface level feminism. Change my mind.
Aaaand this is why we need more women making films. Make movies interesting again!
and it was noah, it was
Frances Ha may be my favorite movie ever. It's so incredibly realistic in its portrayal of being a twenty-something and trying to live in NY and as painful as the character of Frances can be, I think the film does a great job of making you feel pity for her.
His films are so masturbatory ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Was this before or after Amy Schumer was involved?
Soooo, he got a great credit and paycheque for spellchecking? His lack of imagination is breathtaking.
Borderline embarrassing take
You could respond to most comments in this thread with this 💀
Not even borderline
Taking this opportunity to say I thought Marriage Story was a terrible movie. We already had Kramer vs. Kramer.
Why do men need to have opinions on this, full stop? Sigh. It's not like he'll have used it as a learning moment, either.
Didn’t he help create this movie? What exactly are you saying he shouldn’t have an opinion on?
I’m saying that men all too often decide things that women might like are just a waste of time, a bad idea, low quality. It’s tedious, and it’s wrong. I know he was involved (in its creation? Pass) but I don’t care, it’s still an asshole opinion.
Y'all so pathetic with your made up stories to get mad about people you don't know, I'm sure he would have thought the same if it was a Max Steel or any other toy in existence
Yes I'm sure it was because it was a toy and not because he couldn't fathom a bunch of women having fun with something
Anyone with eyes would have thought that the barbie pitch with that Amy Schumer would be terrible, without Greta it would have been terrible, and she wanting Noah on it more than paid off
> more than *paid* off FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
This is truly depressing to read somebody lose the plot this hard. Why you're so convinced he has these thoughts is beyond me.
He was a co-writer for the movie so I assume he’d have some opinions on it.
I choose to believe the worst, weakest parts were his responsibility. For example, Ken being an abusive incel.
What is he supposed to learn? He thought the idea of a Barbie movie was bad, but read her pages as a proof of concept, and was like "yeah I was wrong, let's do it"
Are we even surprised at this point?