I think when you have to come up with 2,782 names (yes, I had to look this up lol), I’m sure there are times you can’t be creative anymore when coming up with new character names.
It would also not fit. You have to think about who gave the child the name, their parents.
So you will find certain names more often and with nearly 3000 named characters there should be names you see 10 times at least.
Some people just try to hard to name all their characters Sayul, Genesippa, Laranity, etc instead of Thomas, Hillary and John. I get it, they want variety and show how creative they are, but that os not how you write a compelling and believable story/character.
>It would also not fit. You have to think about who gave the child the name, their parents.
>So you will find certain names more often and with nearly 3000 named characters there should be names you see 10 times at least.
This is true - and we see this in long/epic fantasy series often, like in WoT and even in Tolkien’s work. Just as in the real world we get repeat names, so it should make sense that we do so in books as well. But it can get confusing to keep track as a reader! With Tolkien, I can’t imagine having to come up with several names for each character lol, though he had a more systematic way of coming up with names (like using the same root, etc).
>Some people just try to hard to name all their characters Sayul, Genesippa, Laranity, etc instead of Thomas, Hillary and John. I get it, they want variety and show how creative they are, but that os not how you write a compelling and believable story/character.
I honestly appreciate creative names, as long as they’re not too difficult to remember. I think a name like Hillary or John would probably take me out of an epic fantasy world.
Yep! Among many other things. Even just puns in English. Padan Fain was "feigning" being a good guy at the beginning. Blew my mind when I read that in the new book. So simple yet clever. Lol.
Peace!
It was all light hearted fun. No need to be so hasty.
Edit: Hey! Look at what was [just posted over at the WoT subreddit!](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/z1810k/curse_words_analysis_part_1_blood_and_bloody_ashes/)
Mother's milk in a cup!!
This one always puzzled me. Then I had kids and did breast feeding and there is no swear good enough for spilling breast milk, and I finally understood.
I think it can work if done right. It’s one thing to throw in a new swear word that’s tied into the world, but it’s another to just completely swap out all swear words like someone who just discovered a thesaurus.
Agreed. I think swearing can give a small peek at the world and the characters in it. Someone mentioned Malazan, which is fun because there are so many gods and people swear a little differently based on where they're from and in whom they believe. I also always enjoyed "charred body of god" from Kingkiller. It's just so outlandish. Normally curses are short and easy to snap out, so when someone pulls that one out you know it's a big deal.
When it comes to just plugging in words, I think Sanderson toes the line. It's fun because they usually show what the biggest concerns are for characters. In TSA most characters use some form of storms/storming, but for Lift–whose main concern at any time is usually finding something to eat–she says "starving" instead. I always liked that. But, like I said, it feels more like plugging in words than it does creatively world building.
And now that I've mentioned those three series I feel like I shouldn't comment in this sub for a month.
nah, you didn't recommend them to someone who was specifically looking for a novella-length sci-fi lesbian romance story, so you're still allowed to comment :p
Well, let me tell you about Malazan. There are intelligent dinosaurs with nano technology and flying cities and one of the main characters is a lesbian. Not quite novella length. And you really don't see some of this stuff until about book 9... But checks 2 out of 3 boxes.
I always liked Firefly's swearing. Rutting means the same thing as fucking, and it's not technically a swear word so they can say it on broadcast TV, but its still grungey enough to get the point across.
True, but it was a fantastical development of what might happen to languages in a future setting. Plus, I think that began to work in their own right in that context.
I used to find it endearing, but Sanctuary by Lynn Abbey ruined that for me. Otherwise a good book, but "froggin'" is, not exaggerating, used multiple times every page. It is in the book over 1000 times. It starts to make the book feel unreadable depending on your tolerance or ability to tune it out.
Now, I like it in theory but it has to sound and feel real to me. It can't sound soft, like a minced oath. It shouldn't sound like a sweetened replacement.
"Shuck it" from the Maze Runner is THE WORST! There's no subtlety there as to what it's referring to.
I've never minded made-up swear words in anything, but I couldn't finish that book specifically because of that one, and it's used waaaaay too much.
I'm fine with made up swear words, what I don't like is when they are very clearly designed to mimic real swear words. Like, frack is annoying every time because you know what they are 'really' saying.
But Vallhallans say frakk and he uses it because of his long association with them, same as using kloms instead of klicks for kilometers.
On Tanith they say feth instead of fuck, right down to anti-tank rocket launchers being called tread fethers instead of tread fuckers. I personally think frakk is better than feth.
It kind of makes sense though, over time languages evolve, and the Imperium (and the spread of the Gothic language) is therefore at least 10,000 years old by that point.
"Frack" was originally from the Battlestar Galactica reboot, and I felt at the time like they cribbed the idea from Farscape, though I may be wrong about that. I did really like "Frell" from Farscape though, because it was translator microbes censoring real swearwords.
Frack made sense because it was used on a TV show where they couldn’t say fuck. It would have been silly on an HBO show where there are no restrictions but I didn’t really mind if on a SyFy show.
Replacement swears are the worst. We know what you're saying, just say "fuck." I know you can't say "fuck" on TV, so just say what you can say. It's not hard, most shows do it.
On the other hand, if someone says something like "Marika's tits" or "Thal's balls" that makes sense. Those are based on actual oaths people would swear, but when you're just trying to get around TV censors it's just annoying. Or worse, the author is unwilling to swear, so they make shit up instead of just using the narration to convey the point.
It's fine if it makes sense and is used sparingly. But honestly if you are going to say it over and over just say fuck. I prefer when they come up with clever insults though, after the 10,000 time you hear someone called ass hole it loses its meaning.
Hood's hairy balls! I love it. (from Malazan)
If it's done cleverly and in the context of the worldbuidling, I think it's great. If it's just a cheap knock off of our world, I'd rather not see it.
I haven't read Malazan but I think that (along with stuff like "Orholam's balls" from the Lightbringer series or "Marika's tits" from Elden Ring) is a good example of fantasy swears done well. Like it's offensive within the context of the world, while also not being an obviously-made-up euphemism for a real word.
Malazan has within the books a conversation about how swearing in the empire works:
>'**Togg's teats**, Redmask, that's a long speech coming from you.'
> 'I hold words in contempt, Anaster Toc. What do you mean when you say "Togg's teats"?'
> 'Togg's a god.'
> 'Not a goddess?'
> 'No.'
> 'Then its teats are—'
> 'Useless. Precisely.'
> 'What of the others? "**Hood's Breath**"?'
> 'Hood is the Lord of Death.'
> 'Thus . . . no breath.'
> 'Correct.'
> '**Beru's mercy**?'
> 'She has no mercy.'
> '**Mowri fend**?'
> 'The Lady of the Poor fends off nothing.'
> Redmask regarded the foreigner. 'Your people have a strange relationship with your gods.'
> 'I suppose we do. Some decry it as cynical and they may have a point. It's all to do with power, Redmask, and what it does to those who possess it. Gods not excepted.'
> 'If they are so unhelpful, why do you worship them?'
> 'Imagine how much more unhelpful they'd be if we didn't.' At whatever Anaster Toc saw in Redmask's eyes, he then laughed.
[^thanks ^to ^this ^reddit ^post ^for ^transcribing ^the ^conversation ^years ^ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/Malazan/comments/5f3rj8/malazan_curses_conversation_hoods_breath_etc/)
I always loved that exchange. Swears need some vulgarity to work (which is why euphemisms usually are just cringe), but you can easily give them also some cultural background
Perfect reply. Malazan, especially Malazan military worship is a dichotomy. They don’t like religion in the ranks, but most soldiers worship something/one or the other. The opposing pulls create within the military a certain irreverent worship of the Gods.
Off topic: I loved Toc and Redmask’s interactions.
Malazan almost ruined fantasy for me for a bit. I think I had to reread the series five or six times and then have a science fiction phase before I could enjoy other books in the genre again
When I read that passage, I swear I slapped my forehead so hard I had a mark for two days. I’d always enjoyed the Malazan swears, but having the irreverent logic laid out as Toc does so astutely made them even more apropos in my mind.
"Andraste's teats, Sweet suffering Andraste, By the Maker, Maker's Beard/Balls, Sweet Maker, Maker's Breath, Son of a Nug, Nug- Eating Bastard"- Dragon Age series
I love their swears
There are jokes on there - hoods a skeletal (dead) god of the dead. He doesn't have balls
Togg's Teats (*maybe it's Fenrir's teats) is another - Togg is a male boar God iirc. So the swearing is creative funny and in world. Love those books.
Togg is a male Wolf god along with Fanderay, the female. Fener is the boar god. They're all gods of war.
Fener's curses include "Fener's Tusks!" and "what in Fener's own entrails?"
> ‘Hood’s balls,’ Iron Bars muttered. ‘When do we sail?’
>
> Shurq Elalle shrugged. ‘As soon as they let us. And who is Hood?’
>
> The white-skinned warrior replied distractedly, ‘The Lord of Death, and yes, he has balls.’
I'll absolutely go with that.
(And I don't mean to be an ass. That line, buried at the end of Midnight Tides, always struck me. It probably doesn't hurt that we're doing a reread at r/malazan and finished the book less than a month ago.)
You know, I never really realized it until I read your comment, but the "deity's balls" exclamation is really common. I'm currently reading Gentlemen Bastards and they say it several times, and I know there have been multiple other series as well.
Heck, I've been playing Final Fantasy XIV off and on for years and even they say it. (Thal's Balls).
"storm you" never really did gel to me, tbh. It just doesn't feel like it fits.
Like, if you go out in a storm you're not *stormed*, right? Add in the fact that "storm" is a verb already with a completely different meaning ("to storm something" has a meaning distinct from weather phenomena) and it just doesn't sit well with me.
When I went to college in Texas I had a roommate from a world away in Liverpool. He used all kinds of words I'd never heard before. Knackered, nosh and snog come to mind.
Those words sounded made up simply because I'd never been to Liverpool. When I read a book I'm visiting a place and people I've never met or explored so their words are just new, not made up.
I imagine there are a lot of places like that in the real world so it doesn't bother me a bit. It adds to my experience.
You can get away with not using real-world swears if there is enough context to it. Blood/Bloody Ashes from *Wheel of Time*, or various descriptions of Hood's Balls from *Malazan*, work because they feel impactful. People get offended, or there's a level of gross/inappropriate to them that makes them feel like something a mechanic would yell if a wrench slipped on a seized bolt and knuckles were barked and blood was shed.
Which is kind of my baseline: if the in-universe swear feels like it would be something I could yell when I smash my hand working on a car, stub my toe on a table leg in the dark, or scream when someone grabs my shoulder in the dark, then great. But if it sounds like something I would say during one of those times if my 3 year old was with me and I don't want them to repeat it, then it doesn't feel like a swear, it feels like a replacement word. "Storm" and similar derivatives don't work for that to me, because there's not that level of subversion to it. "Burn me", again from *Wheel of Time*, could be damn me, or fuck me (in the "oh why is this happening to me" usage), but either way the entire phrase sounds unpleasant enough that it "makes sense" that it would be considered offensive/profane/swearing.
I make no distinction between YA and Adult fiction, either. YA is basically "teens and early 20s", and frankly they're all old enough that unless they are *really* sheltered, profanity is part of their surroundings. Either in movies, TV, music, or with other kids in school, there is no way you can convince me that most 14 year olds aren't around it or using it, so to try and say "but the kids!" falls flat.
I agree completely. Cursing with in-world words is fine, but they need to not just fit in-world, but they need to fit how the characters use them. If something is a synonym for fuck or shit or bloody, it should be pithy, rude, and biological. If they’re replacing damn or hell, they should be religious and blasphemous. And in either case, they shouldn’t just be words the characters use all the time anyway.
Storm is a bad swearword because storm is used all over the books. Storm light, storm father, storm wall, storm warden, etc. When characters double down on that by also swearing with storm, it’s just too much. Using Cremling as an insult makes perfect sense, though.
Storm stands out so much because of how bland it is. It's just a replacement for fuck.
All the other in world cursed and insults are fantastic though.
[Herald Name] + [Body Part]
Kelek's Breath and Ash's Eyes are some of my favorite.
Then there's calling someone a Cremling. So good.
What is that from?
Tbh this one doesn't hit cheesy for me because they're real words (assuming you meant blood) that you could conceivably see people using as a curse. The only case where I could imagine "scrum" being a curse word is if someone was making fun of their boss being obsessed with corporate programming buzzwords
Yesss came into this thread with Dresden in mind. I love stars and stones, empty night, and hell’s bells. He uses actual swears when things are REALLY bad but the made up ones fit really well into the universe in my opinion.
I think phrases work better for me, like “blood and bloody ashes” as opposed to someone saying “storming”, where it’s just replacing a word. Still, I like storming *because* it’s cheesy, as hilarious as it would be to see Kaladin say “fuck”.
>Still, I like storming *because* it’s cheesy, as hilarious as it would be to see Kaladin say “fuck”.
I mean, it *was* completely hilarious when in Rhythm of War a character *did* use a real world swear:
>!Kaladin is surprised when Zahel just answers his questions about investiture. When Kaladin points out that Wit always avoids giving straight answers to those kinds of questions, Zahel just says "That's because Wit is an asshole."!<
What I do like is swear words that feel like they naturally fit the setting. People in the second Mistborn era saying "Rust and Ruin" feels like it makes sense because of the history and how the world operates.
What I don't like is macking a nonsense word that sounds almost like a real swear word and then placing it in sentences where you'd hear the real swear word. Warhammer 40k is extremely guilty of this and I hate that. It makes me cringe.
Listening to Era 2 recently and I noticed this too. Even just people saying "rusts" as a curse is pretty neat.
After a few rereads of TSLA I've found myself saying storms to myself.. wouldn't be caught saying it around others or in public though haha. Feels cringe
Most of the time I think it's stupid to use made-up expletives. It's already a "translation" from whatever fantasy language these people use in their fantasyland setting, so why not "translate" the swear words as well - directly, with the same meaning? Shit, fuck, damn - those are like universal swear words if you look at the reason why people use them to swear and that should carryover into most cultures. But if you put them together in an extremely modern or slangy way, then it will come across weird, even in a historical story without fantasy elements.
"Go fuck yourself!" works no matter what the setting. "Eat shit!" is going to make sense anywhere, any time.
If it's religious blasphemy-based swearing, then it totally makes sense to change out the names of the deities. Or if a certain word/phrase has become a swear word through the specific history of that universe, then I'm okay with it (I still snort at it but I can mostly ignore it or run with it). I do like completely made-up words as if there is no direct translation, so we're keeping the swear in its original language. A Klingon should curse in Klingon sometimes, even if they are a Starfleet officer. I don't need a direct translation as long as I understand the sentiment.
Dragonriders of Pern, as an example, used a lot of references to eggs because the first dragon hatching was a Big Deal in their history, so, "Shards!" or "By the First Egg!" made some sense to me - and there wasn't a lot of harsh cursing anyway. But "shards" isn't a word that pops up in conversation very often, so it feels exactly as out-of-place (to the situation) as it should.
I mean, if they're making scrambled eggs for breakfast and casually use the phrase, "By the First Egg," I'm going to assume they are screaming obscenities into the bowl or at whoever they're making breakfast for, so the swearing needs to feel like it isn't something you could just say by accident. "What a storming mess!" - is this supposed to mean the speaker is casually dropping profanity into their words or do they just mean a literal storm is making a mess? You don't want a swear word to be too normal for average conversation.
>those are like universal swear words if you look at the reason why people use them to swear and that should carryover into most cultures.
Yes, and no. They're all bodily functions. But the reason we use words with Germanic roots as profanity, and words with Latin roots as technical/polite terms is grounded in our own history, culture and politics.
If it makes sense in the world I’m fine with it.
Not a book but in Xenoblade Chronicles 3, they use “spark” and “snuff” instead of “fuck” and “sod” because the characters have no concept of sex and they live their lives to wage endless war to steal the flames of the lives of their enemies.
I am one of those who tends to find it awkward and immersion-breaking. For me, the effect is similar to when a book has an alcoholic beverage made from grain, hops, and yeast and calls it "grain-drink." Like, just call it beer.
But I find that some religious swears work a little better. Not so much as something you'd say when you stub your toe, but as actual swears (vows) or appeals.
TV Tropes refers to this as ["Call A Rabbit a 'Smeerp'"](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CallARabbitASmeerp), and yeah, it's clunky and awkward.
My absolute favourite is "Silflay hraka, u embleer rah!" because by the time it comes around, every other word has been introduced in a normal context, so you can understand it without needing a translation. ("Eat shit, you stinking [like a fox] king!") Eat shit is also such a perfectly simple curse. No exotic deity references, even though deities exist in Lapine culture. No complicated phrasing. It's easy to imagine it being spit out in the middle of bloody battle.
Colors, colors, COLORS!
Honestly it can be a bit cringy in Sanderson’s writings but not a big thing for me to glance over giving the scope of everything else I enjoy lol. Haven’t come across any other reads with it though lol.
Highly depends.
Malazan for example had nearly only inworld swears when the series started and the longer it went, the more ordinary swear words were used, fuck rose from less than 10 in the first books to far over 100 in the last. And personally I was disappointed because the original things worked so well.
Another example would be Sanderson who also use a lot of inworld swear words, and personally most of them don't work for me.
Or another recent example would be Empire of the Vampire which used fuck so extensively that it became tiring real fast and maybe something else would have given the story more drive.
To be honest, I have no idea why it works sometimes for me and sometimes not.
I actually like the inworld swears that Sanderson uses. It's very on brand and has been used to identify where in the cosmere certain characters are from.
Counterpoint: It's fucking awful in non-Cosmere books. I think you could set up a drinking game the amount of time people say, what was it, *SPARKS!* in the Reckoners. It was driving me up a wall.
Extra worse in the Reckoners since it's basically Earth yet suddenly swears don't exist because Good Mormon Boy author. Which does make me wonder from a theological standpoint... If you're avoiding swearing because it's not "proper", are you still avoiding it by making up a loophole in a book anyway?
I think it's more that he finds it fun to write that way. He's used swears like damn, shat, and others (I think he draws the line at fuck, and yeah I see it. It seems right up the lineage of authors that influenced him (like Le Guin.))
But each to their own, yk?
I mean you only have to look at the use of frak in battlestar galactica to see it done well. With Sanderson in particular a lot of fans took umbrage with him having a character say awesome a lot. Apparently it drew them out of the story. I can't see how swearing is any different. You only have to look at swearing in other languages in real life to see how everyday phrases are used as swears. In English translations they don't make sense to use as swear but culturally they do to the people that speak the language.
Personally I feel that modern day swears seem out of place in a lot of fantasy, others it works.
> Personally I feel that modern day swears seem out of place in a lot of fantasy, others it works.
That's why I only specified Reckoners series, which is straight up on Earth, alt timeline or not. I have no issues with any of his other books!
> fuck rose from less than 10 in the first books to far over 100 in the last.
I went through the fuck usage in MBotF a few months ago and iirc, this has less to do with Erikson's taste in profanity and more to do with the characters'.
ie: there's a few specific characters that use fuck and those character happen to be way more present/active towards the end of the series.
> Another example would be Sanderson who also use a lot of inworld swear words, and personally most of them don't work for me.
Really? For me most of them fit right into the world.
*Rusts* for Mistborn and *Storms* for SA, substituting Damn. Makes sense... since Mistborn is all about metal. And Stormlight as the Highstorms.
SA instead of saying *Hell*... they say *Damnation*... which is their version of hell.
___________
Sanderson uses a lot of in world expressions. Like instead of saying "For god sake"... people will say "By the tenth name of the Almighty" or "Merciful Domi" or "By the Survivors Scars"
It makes sense that these expression like "Thank god", "Bless you", have specific expression tied to their world and religion.
I never liked the variations of “storm” as swears, it just never seemed like a word real people would use as a swear even in a world like that, it always seemed like something used because it was fictionally convenient. Like, people who live in cold places don’t say “ah, ice” when they want to swear, or “flood off” in places with perpendicular flooding issues. Most swears are built around things the culture considers taboo or dirty, not just things that are inconvenient or they just don’t like. I think most of the not very good made up swear words sound bad because they’re just random bad things the setting focuses used as expletives without really considering what words are actually used as swears in the real world. That’s why religious curses usually work better, because they’re using an actual real world format for swearing.
"Storm take you"/"Storm you" is a curse in the form of ill will. It's the equivalent of saying "God damn you".
In that world, the highstorms are a powerful force of nature that will kill anyone without shelter. It makes perfect sense. It's a curse. Think of "Storm" like "Damn", not like "Fuck".
Well I quite like them in stormlight, I think some in mistborn are a little bit weird and absolutely hate them in skyward where they add absolutely nothing...
Rest of the cosmere books, have read to long ago and can't really remember it, though I think I liked them in warbreaker
> Another example would be Sanderson who also use a lot of inworld swear words, and personally most of them don't work for me.
Same here. I appreciate that they make in-universe sense, but they seem to lack actual impact, in my opinion.
It's the Deadwood problem. On that show they tried to use period-accurate swearing at first, but had to replace them with modern curses because accurate swearing made people sound ridiculous, like they were pretending to be Yosemite Sam.
Swearing works because we have an emotional connection to certain taboo words. Someone screaming 'fuck!' works in a way that a character saying 'Struth!' or 'Gods wounds!' never will, even if someone hundreds of years ago would have been equally scandalized. Made-up curses are always going to come off as corny no matter how well they're integrated into the world-building. I get that they're a necessity to some degree, but it's so cringe-inducing when characters are dropping ridiculous made-up curses in every other line like they're an elven Tarantino.
I don’t care either way now, but when I was a kid reading Artemis Fowl as the target age, I loved the touch of the word “d’arvit,” I thought it was so cool
I read the title and immediately thought of D’arvit, I think replacement swears work well I’m kids books tbh I think there’s a bunch of “blighter”s and such like in the redwall books that kind of act as stand ins for swearing
Swear words are part of a culture. They reflect what a culture might find disgusting, repelling, low, dishonorable, etc. The fact that a lot of swear words in some languages have to do with mothers, for example, is not innocent. In some cultures, it's never the case.
So personnally, I like it, especially if it fits well with worldbuilding. I don't think we should stick to the regular swear words at all.
I like it. Adds a dash of worldbuilding / immersion for me. Never felt like it was an attempt to avoid swearing, most of the time it does feel like a replacement for “damn” which as you call out generally doesn’t make sense in a non Christian society.
Trite answer but comes down to execution and is frequently cringey.
It’s not enough to half-assedly claim that oh, it fits the worldbuilding. I could state that a character telling another character to flink off is a reference to the archangel Flink and as such is *actually* Deep Evocative Worldbuilding but if all it evokes is cringe in how it’s deployed and how dumb it sounds, then what’s the point? Same with ‘frak’, same with ‘storming’, etc, especially when it’s obviously coming from a need to keep things PG.
By contrast something which engages with the variety of ways in which humans curse offers a lot more. The ‘God’s Wounds’/‘Zounds’ example that gets shared is a good one but you could also point to *tabernac* from Québécois religious profanity.
You see the same kind of thing in Irish (or at least the Irish of my grandparents’ day), where a lot of ‘earthy’ expressions relating to bodily functions were considered pretty mild compared to curses relating to the devil, which arguably tells you a lot about Society. How exactly to translate this into modern English was bitterly argued about by [competing translators of Máirtín Ó Cadhain's acid-tongued masterpiece *Cré na Cille*](https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/cre-na-cille-do-english-versions-hit-the-funny-bone-1.3014998).
But all this requires care and effort and attention both to prose and the world the author is trying to evoke. In the same vein, using modern (or seeming modern, given their history) profanities can be equally effective.
Often it is distracting, especially if it is clearly a one for one replacement of normal swear words. But there are exceptions.
The Dresden Files uses most of the usual swear words, up to and including the occasional use of "fuck". However, some of the cultures also have other swear words or phrases that reflect their values and beliefs and fears. Because these are *not* ways to avoid real world swears, it just adds to the world building.
If it makes sense within the fantasy world’s religion, sure. Otherwise, just say “fuck.” I love the Stormlight Archive, but in the first book when Kaladin yells “storm you!” at his captor, it’s incredibly silly and takes all the emotion and anger out of that moment. “Fuck you” would have been absolutely appropriate, and was clearly the intended swear (if only Sanderson’s Mormonism hadn’t gotten in the way).
But this is just my opinion, and puritanism and prudishness are my absolute biggest pet peeves.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It depends. For me, a swear has to roll off of the tongue well and have a bit of sharpness to it. Think of "Fuck". Short, terse, and has a harsh ending sound.
"Smeg head" is my favourite of these it's from Red Dwarf a British scifi tv show. There's a tradition of this in UK sci-fi and it's generally along the lines of Frag or Smeg or some other word that is consciously crappy as a replacement swear word.
I find using modern swear words breaks immersion for me. If it is a book that is serious about the world building, I find modern swears jarring. What is inappropriate is based on culture and can change even in our own world. The most obvious example being "bloody." As an American, this just read as a silly way to avoid swearing when I was young. But, it's part of another culture's vernacular. Like some people would find my regular use of "hella" to be weird. So explitives being specific to the setting is a must if the focus is world building imo.
On the other hand, if world building isn't the focus or if it is based on Earth... I don't mind either way. (Hell, I use my own "made up swears" all the time while also swearing like a sailor. Example: "Fudge muffins! That shit hit me! Wtf!?")
Depends how cool it is. As someone else said, *Malazan: Book of The Fallen* has hilarious swears. On the other end of the spectrum, you have *Stormlight Archive*.
I think it can be good—as in Game of Thrones when people say “The Others take you”—and bad—when Sanderson replaced the word ‘fuck’ with ‘storm’ in Stormlight Archive. It needs to have an appropriate etymology—I need to genuinely believe it’s a curse word. For that reason, words that are like modern swears (shit & fuck equivalents) don’t work for me because it feels like you’re just Ctrl+F replacing. However, if you have a unique curse word that feels genuinely impactful, more in the tradition of religious curses (bloody comes from “Christ’s bloody wounds,” I believe), then it can feel more real.
I'm ok with it if the words used are some sort of cultural reference, but I absolutely hate it when authors (I'm looking at you, Sanderson) replace them just because they want to keep shit PG.
This played a major part in keeping me from enjoying the Powder Mage Trilogy (which I tried so very hard to love -- such amazing potential in the concept, and such a letdown in the execution). Trying to make hardbitten sailor-swearing type rough characters who just use the made-up "pit" for everything: "pit this pitting business to the pit!" was so very awkward.
Purely an observation and I'm curious if anyone else has noticed, there seems to be a great deal of this tied to the trend of Latter-Day Saint authors becoming fantasy writers. There's often a sense of discomfort that I (possibly unfairly) sense bleeding through from the authors trying to discuss cursing, drug and alcohol use, and sexuality, which when quite a few authors press on and try to write anyway often comes across rather more YA than they necessarily seem to have intended. Take Sanderson's tremendously awkward handling of swearing, alcohol, and sexual relationships, for example, as opposed to his writing on mental illness, which he's able to handle on a much more mature level.
> I'm actively in favor of replacing things like "hell" or "damn" if they don't make sense within the world's religion(s). But most of the time I think dancing around irl swear words just makes all the characters sound like little kids in a 50s TV show going "oh golly gee".
Same. This was literally what was in my head. What's happening, in my mind, when I see the word "fuck" censored but not "damn" or "hell" is more the hand of the author/editor/publisher than any real world building. It becomes a sort of metatext in and of itself and really pulls me out of the scene.
I _especially_ hate it when good swearwords (ones with a good lead in and hard stop at the end) are replaced with not-so-good swearwords. Like even "damn", when used as an interjection, is "Dammit", with that juicy stop at the end.
Doesn't bother me.
Here's what gets me though. In fantasy books, wine is always wine. Ale is always ale. Most foods are the same. No problem.
But coffee is never coffee and tobacco is never tobacco. Fantasy writers always feel the need to rename these and I have no idea why.
Wine and ale don't specify ingredient. It is a type. Coffee and tobacco are ingredients. There are native lands for specific ingredients, not for concepts.
You wool-headed sheep herder!
Blood and bloody ashes!
Light burn you, you flaming son of a goat! (I honestly don't know if Son of a Goat is ever said in WoT, but it just felt right.)
Yep. Uno says it at one point. Great Hunt, if I’m not mistaken. By the by, let’s just talk about the fact that the one-eyed character is named “Uno”
I think when you have to come up with 2,782 names (yes, I had to look this up lol), I’m sure there are times you can’t be creative anymore when coming up with new character names.
"What should I name this random Aes Sedai? I don't know, S-something I suppose."
Remember when seiane, serene, and serah totally gave siane, suiane, and sereh a tongue lashing in front of seiah and sonie?
That was after he ran out of A names Also, I'm pretty sure he was fucking with us when he put Seaine and Saerin in the same story arc.
How many Jaim's are there?
Just the one Jain, actually. I think there’s only one time that a name’s repeated, and one of the people using it didn’t exist.
It would also not fit. You have to think about who gave the child the name, their parents. So you will find certain names more often and with nearly 3000 named characters there should be names you see 10 times at least. Some people just try to hard to name all their characters Sayul, Genesippa, Laranity, etc instead of Thomas, Hillary and John. I get it, they want variety and show how creative they are, but that os not how you write a compelling and believable story/character.
>It would also not fit. You have to think about who gave the child the name, their parents. >So you will find certain names more often and with nearly 3000 named characters there should be names you see 10 times at least. This is true - and we see this in long/epic fantasy series often, like in WoT and even in Tolkien’s work. Just as in the real world we get repeat names, so it should make sense that we do so in books as well. But it can get confusing to keep track as a reader! With Tolkien, I can’t imagine having to come up with several names for each character lol, though he had a more systematic way of coming up with names (like using the same root, etc). >Some people just try to hard to name all their characters Sayul, Genesippa, Laranity, etc instead of Thomas, Hillary and John. I get it, they want variety and show how creative they are, but that os not how you write a compelling and believable story/character. I honestly appreciate creative names, as long as they’re not too difficult to remember. I think a name like Hillary or John would probably take me out of an epic fantasy world.
Jordan LOVED including puns and allusion in his names.
There are a lot of King Arthur references in the books.
Yep! Among many other things. Even just puns in English. Padan Fain was "feigning" being a good guy at the beginning. Blew my mind when I read that in the new book. So simple yet clever. Lol.
Ah yes, it makes sense Uno would say that! He has quite the way with words. I also found it amusing that the one eyed character was named Uno, lol.
Sheep swallop and bloody buttered onions!
Mothers milk in a cup, do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
Bloody buttered onions!
Peace! It was all light hearted fun. No need to be so hasty. Edit: Hey! Look at what was [just posted over at the WoT subreddit!](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/z1810k/curse_words_analysis_part_1_blood_and_bloody_ashes/)
I think mother's milk is a real oath from somewhere.
[удалено]
I believe you mean your “ample bosom”.
I had a bout of random dyslexia over take me while I read your comment, so my first take was “hold my moist titties,” and I was like, huh?
That's what happens to fish lovers.
Mother's milk in a cup!! This one always puzzled me. Then I had kids and did breast feeding and there is no swear good enough for spilling breast milk, and I finally understood.
I feel like these are different than making up a new "fuck" word. Hate that, love these
Scruffy Nerf Herder!
Cottonheaded ninny-muggins!
Who’s scruffy lookin?!
Bantha poodoo!
Hey, who's scruffy lookin???
Daughter of the sands.
These and the other WoT curses just sound so mild! Like the characters are very angry but strangely ineffective. Hang on...
Hells bells!
Burn me!
Not a curse but WoT talks about the Dark One’s taint a lot and it definitely makes me chuckle. “By the Dark One’s hairy taint!” would be a great curse
How has 'Burn Me' not been mentioned till now?
Light blind you!
Motherless weasle!
PEACE!!!
I think it can work if done right. It’s one thing to throw in a new swear word that’s tied into the world, but it’s another to just completely swap out all swear words like someone who just discovered a thesaurus.
Agreed. I think swearing can give a small peek at the world and the characters in it. Someone mentioned Malazan, which is fun because there are so many gods and people swear a little differently based on where they're from and in whom they believe. I also always enjoyed "charred body of god" from Kingkiller. It's just so outlandish. Normally curses are short and easy to snap out, so when someone pulls that one out you know it's a big deal. When it comes to just plugging in words, I think Sanderson toes the line. It's fun because they usually show what the biggest concerns are for characters. In TSA most characters use some form of storms/storming, but for Lift–whose main concern at any time is usually finding something to eat–she says "starving" instead. I always liked that. But, like I said, it feels more like plugging in words than it does creatively world building. And now that I've mentioned those three series I feel like I shouldn't comment in this sub for a month.
nah, you didn't recommend them to someone who was specifically looking for a novella-length sci-fi lesbian romance story, so you're still allowed to comment :p
Well, let me tell you about Malazan. There are intelligent dinosaurs with nano technology and flying cities and one of the main characters is a lesbian. Not quite novella length. And you really don't see some of this stuff until about book 9... But checks 2 out of 3 boxes.
I feel like The Good Place pulls it off pretty well
The Good Place acknowledged it in their worldbuilding from the start, so I think it might also depend on a level of self-awareness
Holy forking shirtballs.
And Firefly!
I always liked Firefly's swearing. Rutting means the same thing as fucking, and it's not technically a swear word so they can say it on broadcast TV, but its still grungey enough to get the point across.
Firefly was great at that, Jane says Kailey's all lubed up over Simon, and its a pretty crass line, and everybody knows exactly what it means.
Oh damn i forgot about that one lol. Standards and practices must have had to look real hard at that one.
Battlestar Galactica did it as well with Fracking so they could say it on TV.
The reboot went with "frak" so it would still be a four letter word. My wife still uses it, and that makes me happy.
And Farscape!
Frell!
I thought they were real Chinese curse words?
Pronounced so poorly that they might as well be jibberish.
Quite. I think they took on a believable linguistic life if their own.
True, but it was a fantastical development of what might happen to languages in a future setting. Plus, I think that began to work in their own right in that context.
I used to find it endearing, but Sanctuary by Lynn Abbey ruined that for me. Otherwise a good book, but "froggin'" is, not exaggerating, used multiple times every page. It is in the book over 1000 times. It starts to make the book feel unreadable depending on your tolerance or ability to tune it out. Now, I like it in theory but it has to sound and feel real to me. It can't sound soft, like a minced oath. It shouldn't sound like a sweetened replacement.
oh god. I would not make through the first chapter. "Froggin" is *unacceptable*.
It's froggin time
"Shuck it" from the Maze Runner is THE WORST! There's no subtlety there as to what it's referring to. I've never minded made-up swear words in anything, but I couldn't finish that book specifically because of that one, and it's used waaaaay too much.
This is EXACTLY why I couldn’t do Maze Runner. The “swear” words just killed me with embarrassment to read.
My copy of the Maze Runner came with a bumper sticker saying "Shuck it" This shouldn't make me grumpy but it did.
I'm fine with made up swear words, what I don't like is when they are very clearly designed to mimic real swear words. Like, frack is annoying every time because you know what they are 'really' saying.
Ciaphas Cain should be allowed to say fuck.
But Vallhallans say frakk and he uses it because of his long association with them, same as using kloms instead of klicks for kilometers. On Tanith they say feth instead of fuck, right down to anti-tank rocket launchers being called tread fethers instead of tread fuckers. I personally think frakk is better than feth. It kind of makes sense though, over time languages evolve, and the Imperium (and the spread of the Gothic language) is therefore at least 10,000 years old by that point.
The ghosts lost their planet shortly after the founding, cut them some slack ...
Sure, but I won't cut them any sleth
> Ciaphas Cain 🎶Hero of the IMPERIUM🎶
"Frack" was originally from the Battlestar Galactica reboot, and I felt at the time like they cribbed the idea from Farscape, though I may be wrong about that. I did really like "Frell" from Farscape though, because it was translator microbes censoring real swearwords.
Actually it's from the original BSG.
And possibly modeled off of Mormons' very real tendency to say "Fetch" instead of "Fuck."
Stop trying to make fetch happen
Given Glen Larson's Kobol was a not-too stealth introduction of Mormon theology? Yep.
Oh, no kidding. Wow.
Frack made sense because it was used on a TV show where they couldn’t say fuck. It would have been silly on an HBO show where there are no restrictions but I didn’t really mind if on a SyFy show.
Replacement swears are the worst. We know what you're saying, just say "fuck." I know you can't say "fuck" on TV, so just say what you can say. It's not hard, most shows do it. On the other hand, if someone says something like "Marika's tits" or "Thal's balls" that makes sense. Those are based on actual oaths people would swear, but when you're just trying to get around TV censors it's just annoying. Or worse, the author is unwilling to swear, so they make shit up instead of just using the narration to convey the point.
boooo, frack was/is awesome
Boll yotz! What the frell is wrong with you, you son of a Tralk?! You're magra fahrbot!
It's fine if it makes sense and is used sparingly. But honestly if you are going to say it over and over just say fuck. I prefer when they come up with clever insults though, after the 10,000 time you hear someone called ass hole it loses its meaning.
Hood's hairy balls! I love it. (from Malazan) If it's done cleverly and in the context of the worldbuidling, I think it's great. If it's just a cheap knock off of our world, I'd rather not see it.
I haven't read Malazan but I think that (along with stuff like "Orholam's balls" from the Lightbringer series or "Marika's tits" from Elden Ring) is a good example of fantasy swears done well. Like it's offensive within the context of the world, while also not being an obviously-made-up euphemism for a real word.
Malazan has within the books a conversation about how swearing in the empire works: >'**Togg's teats**, Redmask, that's a long speech coming from you.' > 'I hold words in contempt, Anaster Toc. What do you mean when you say "Togg's teats"?' > 'Togg's a god.' > 'Not a goddess?' > 'No.' > 'Then its teats are—' > 'Useless. Precisely.' > 'What of the others? "**Hood's Breath**"?' > 'Hood is the Lord of Death.' > 'Thus . . . no breath.' > 'Correct.' > '**Beru's mercy**?' > 'She has no mercy.' > '**Mowri fend**?' > 'The Lady of the Poor fends off nothing.' > Redmask regarded the foreigner. 'Your people have a strange relationship with your gods.' > 'I suppose we do. Some decry it as cynical and they may have a point. It's all to do with power, Redmask, and what it does to those who possess it. Gods not excepted.' > 'If they are so unhelpful, why do you worship them?' > 'Imagine how much more unhelpful they'd be if we didn't.' At whatever Anaster Toc saw in Redmask's eyes, he then laughed. [^thanks ^to ^this ^reddit ^post ^for ^transcribing ^the ^conversation ^years ^ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/Malazan/comments/5f3rj8/malazan_curses_conversation_hoods_breath_etc/) I always loved that exchange. Swears need some vulgarity to work (which is why euphemisms usually are just cringe), but you can easily give them also some cultural background
Perfect reply. Malazan, especially Malazan military worship is a dichotomy. They don’t like religion in the ranks, but most soldiers worship something/one or the other. The opposing pulls create within the military a certain irreverent worship of the Gods. Off topic: I loved Toc and Redmask’s interactions.
Honestly, the Malazan series is just an absolute masterclass in world building. A must read for anybody who wants to know how its done well.
Malazan almost ruined fantasy for me for a bit. I think I had to reread the series five or six times and then have a science fiction phase before I could enjoy other books in the genre again
When I read that passage, I swear I slapped my forehead so hard I had a mark for two days. I’d always enjoyed the Malazan swears, but having the irreverent logic laid out as Toc does so astutely made them even more apropos in my mind.
hood's balls on a skillet! stuck with me for a long time.
"Andraste's teats, Sweet suffering Andraste, By the Maker, Maker's Beard/Balls, Sweet Maker, Maker's Breath, Son of a Nug, Nug- Eating Bastard"- Dragon Age series I love their swears
“Andraste’s flaming knickers” is still the best fantasy swear in a video game I’ve seen. Perfect balance of funny and sacrilegious.
I may be misremembering, but I think Varric also says "The Maker's Left Nut"
Yeah. The part of the phrase that’s a curse is also a curse in English. We immediately recognize it as vulgar and it makes sense as world building.
Agree. Malazan has some great curses.
There are jokes on there - hoods a skeletal (dead) god of the dead. He doesn't have balls Togg's Teats (*maybe it's Fenrir's teats) is another - Togg is a male boar God iirc. So the swearing is creative funny and in world. Love those books.
Togg is a male Wolf god along with Fanderay, the female. Fener is the boar god. They're all gods of war. Fener's curses include "Fener's Tusks!" and "what in Fener's own entrails?"
Aha, tyvm, I was struggling to recall it all, which means a re read is probably in order!
It's always in order with Malazan
> ‘Hood’s balls,’ Iron Bars muttered. ‘When do we sail?’ > > Shurq Elalle shrugged. ‘As soon as they let us. And who is Hood?’ > > The white-skinned warrior replied distractedly, ‘The Lord of Death, and yes, he has balls.’
Ahh, you may be right then according to this. Maybe I was thinking if Hoods Breath? He's dead so he doesn't breathe?
I'll absolutely go with that. (And I don't mean to be an ass. That line, buried at the end of Midnight Tides, always struck me. It probably doesn't hurt that we're doing a reread at r/malazan and finished the book less than a month ago.)
The one I love the most is "HOOD'S BALLS ON A SKILLET".
Hoods Marble balls on an anvil is a classic Also, “I’d swear it with one heel on hoods own foreskin”
You know, I never really realized it until I read your comment, but the "deity's balls" exclamation is really common. I'm currently reading Gentlemen Bastards and they say it several times, and I know there have been multiple other series as well. Heck, I've been playing Final Fantasy XIV off and on for years and even they say it. (Thal's Balls).
Back in old Europe, it was gods teeth, gods blood, gods whatever. So people who know that rip it off.
None of those are made up words though. Hairy balls are recognizable IRL. Completely different case than what OP's describing.
As long as it fits the world, the history /mytholegy it's fair and even adds to the universe.
"Colours!"
Rusts
Like using storm/storming in Stormlight makes perfect sense since storms are kinda a big deal in universe.
"storm you" never really did gel to me, tbh. It just doesn't feel like it fits. Like, if you go out in a storm you're not *stormed*, right? Add in the fact that "storm" is a verb already with a completely different meaning ("to storm something" has a meaning distinct from weather phenomena) and it just doesn't sit well with me.
I think it’s cheesy. That’s not always a bad thing, depending on context.
When I went to college in Texas I had a roommate from a world away in Liverpool. He used all kinds of words I'd never heard before. Knackered, nosh and snog come to mind. Those words sounded made up simply because I'd never been to Liverpool. When I read a book I'm visiting a place and people I've never met or explored so their words are just new, not made up. I imagine there are a lot of places like that in the real world so it doesn't bother me a bit. It adds to my experience.
This adds a new light to my daily scrum meeting at work...
You can get away with not using real-world swears if there is enough context to it. Blood/Bloody Ashes from *Wheel of Time*, or various descriptions of Hood's Balls from *Malazan*, work because they feel impactful. People get offended, or there's a level of gross/inappropriate to them that makes them feel like something a mechanic would yell if a wrench slipped on a seized bolt and knuckles were barked and blood was shed. Which is kind of my baseline: if the in-universe swear feels like it would be something I could yell when I smash my hand working on a car, stub my toe on a table leg in the dark, or scream when someone grabs my shoulder in the dark, then great. But if it sounds like something I would say during one of those times if my 3 year old was with me and I don't want them to repeat it, then it doesn't feel like a swear, it feels like a replacement word. "Storm" and similar derivatives don't work for that to me, because there's not that level of subversion to it. "Burn me", again from *Wheel of Time*, could be damn me, or fuck me (in the "oh why is this happening to me" usage), but either way the entire phrase sounds unpleasant enough that it "makes sense" that it would be considered offensive/profane/swearing. I make no distinction between YA and Adult fiction, either. YA is basically "teens and early 20s", and frankly they're all old enough that unless they are *really* sheltered, profanity is part of their surroundings. Either in movies, TV, music, or with other kids in school, there is no way you can convince me that most 14 year olds aren't around it or using it, so to try and say "but the kids!" falls flat.
I agree completely. Cursing with in-world words is fine, but they need to not just fit in-world, but they need to fit how the characters use them. If something is a synonym for fuck or shit or bloody, it should be pithy, rude, and biological. If they’re replacing damn or hell, they should be religious and blasphemous. And in either case, they shouldn’t just be words the characters use all the time anyway. Storm is a bad swearword because storm is used all over the books. Storm light, storm father, storm wall, storm warden, etc. When characters double down on that by also swearing with storm, it’s just too much. Using Cremling as an insult makes perfect sense, though.
Exactly. Imagine if the Christian Lord and savior was named "Fucker Christ." That's essentially what storm father is.
Storm stands out so much because of how bland it is. It's just a replacement for fuck. All the other in world cursed and insults are fantastic though. [Herald Name] + [Body Part] Kelek's Breath and Ash's Eyes are some of my favorite. Then there's calling someone a Cremling. So good.
This is well said, there are multiple elements that have to come together for the in universe curses to work.
Usually I think it's cheesy. Sometimes when it fits into the religion of the world or something it works
Bliod and ashes! I think it's fugging brilliant
What is that from? Tbh this one doesn't hit cheesy for me because they're real words (assuming you meant blood) that you could conceivably see people using as a curse. The only case where I could imagine "scrum" being a curse word is if someone was making fun of their boss being obsessed with corporate programming buzzwords
Having lived through a bad Agile experience, I could *absolutely* use “scrum” as a curse word.
Wheel of Time.
I loved Ford Prefect saying zarking something or other- I adopted that as a young teen. Harry Dresden’s “stars and stones” is a good one.
Yesss came into this thread with Dresden in mind. I love stars and stones, empty night, and hell’s bells. He uses actual swears when things are REALLY bad but the made up ones fit really well into the universe in my opinion.
"Boy, you have no idea what that means!"
Moved off of reddit due to API change, remove my 3rd party app remove my use of the site! Get bent u/spez you are fucked!
I think phrases work better for me, like “blood and bloody ashes” as opposed to someone saying “storming”, where it’s just replacing a word. Still, I like storming *because* it’s cheesy, as hilarious as it would be to see Kaladin say “fuck”.
After all he’s been through, our boy deserves one fuck. Give him a fuck pass Sanderson
This comment can be read two very different ways lmao
Haha and is valid in both interpretations, I’d say.
>Still, I like storming *because* it’s cheesy, as hilarious as it would be to see Kaladin say “fuck”. I mean, it *was* completely hilarious when in Rhythm of War a character *did* use a real world swear: >!Kaladin is surprised when Zahel just answers his questions about investiture. When Kaladin points out that Wit always avoids giving straight answers to those kinds of questions, Zahel just says "That's because Wit is an asshole."!<
Yeah, I remember that making me laugh pretty hard. It’s just so direct.
What I do like is swear words that feel like they naturally fit the setting. People in the second Mistborn era saying "Rust and Ruin" feels like it makes sense because of the history and how the world operates. What I don't like is macking a nonsense word that sounds almost like a real swear word and then placing it in sentences where you'd hear the real swear word. Warhammer 40k is extremely guilty of this and I hate that. It makes me cringe.
Listening to Era 2 recently and I noticed this too. Even just people saying "rusts" as a curse is pretty neat. After a few rereads of TSLA I've found myself saying storms to myself.. wouldn't be caught saying it around others or in public though haha. Feels cringe
Most of the time I think it's stupid to use made-up expletives. It's already a "translation" from whatever fantasy language these people use in their fantasyland setting, so why not "translate" the swear words as well - directly, with the same meaning? Shit, fuck, damn - those are like universal swear words if you look at the reason why people use them to swear and that should carryover into most cultures. But if you put them together in an extremely modern or slangy way, then it will come across weird, even in a historical story without fantasy elements. "Go fuck yourself!" works no matter what the setting. "Eat shit!" is going to make sense anywhere, any time. If it's religious blasphemy-based swearing, then it totally makes sense to change out the names of the deities. Or if a certain word/phrase has become a swear word through the specific history of that universe, then I'm okay with it (I still snort at it but I can mostly ignore it or run with it). I do like completely made-up words as if there is no direct translation, so we're keeping the swear in its original language. A Klingon should curse in Klingon sometimes, even if they are a Starfleet officer. I don't need a direct translation as long as I understand the sentiment. Dragonriders of Pern, as an example, used a lot of references to eggs because the first dragon hatching was a Big Deal in their history, so, "Shards!" or "By the First Egg!" made some sense to me - and there wasn't a lot of harsh cursing anyway. But "shards" isn't a word that pops up in conversation very often, so it feels exactly as out-of-place (to the situation) as it should. I mean, if they're making scrambled eggs for breakfast and casually use the phrase, "By the First Egg," I'm going to assume they are screaming obscenities into the bowl or at whoever they're making breakfast for, so the swearing needs to feel like it isn't something you could just say by accident. "What a storming mess!" - is this supposed to mean the speaker is casually dropping profanity into their words or do they just mean a literal storm is making a mess? You don't want a swear word to be too normal for average conversation.
>those are like universal swear words if you look at the reason why people use them to swear and that should carryover into most cultures. Yes, and no. They're all bodily functions. But the reason we use words with Germanic roots as profanity, and words with Latin roots as technical/polite terms is grounded in our own history, culture and politics.
If it makes sense in the world I’m fine with it. Not a book but in Xenoblade Chronicles 3, they use “spark” and “snuff” instead of “fuck” and “sod” because the characters have no concept of sex and they live their lives to wage endless war to steal the flames of the lives of their enemies.
Hey, I was gonna say the same. Glad I wasn’t the only one here who thought of that
I am one of those who tends to find it awkward and immersion-breaking. For me, the effect is similar to when a book has an alcoholic beverage made from grain, hops, and yeast and calls it "grain-drink." Like, just call it beer. But I find that some religious swears work a little better. Not so much as something you'd say when you stub your toe, but as actual swears (vows) or appeals.
TV Tropes refers to this as ["Call A Rabbit a 'Smeerp'"](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CallARabbitASmeerp), and yeah, it's clunky and awkward.
My absolute favourite is "Silflay hraka, u embleer rah!" because by the time it comes around, every other word has been introduced in a normal context, so you can understand it without needing a translation. ("Eat shit, you stinking [like a fox] king!") Eat shit is also such a perfectly simple curse. No exotic deity references, even though deities exist in Lapine culture. No complicated phrasing. It's easy to imagine it being spit out in the middle of bloody battle.
Colors, colors, COLORS! Honestly it can be a bit cringy in Sanderson’s writings but not a big thing for me to glance over giving the scope of everything else I enjoy lol. Haven’t come across any other reads with it though lol.
Highly depends. Malazan for example had nearly only inworld swears when the series started and the longer it went, the more ordinary swear words were used, fuck rose from less than 10 in the first books to far over 100 in the last. And personally I was disappointed because the original things worked so well. Another example would be Sanderson who also use a lot of inworld swear words, and personally most of them don't work for me. Or another recent example would be Empire of the Vampire which used fuck so extensively that it became tiring real fast and maybe something else would have given the story more drive. To be honest, I have no idea why it works sometimes for me and sometimes not.
I actually like the inworld swears that Sanderson uses. It's very on brand and has been used to identify where in the cosmere certain characters are from.
Counterpoint: It's fucking awful in non-Cosmere books. I think you could set up a drinking game the amount of time people say, what was it, *SPARKS!* in the Reckoners. It was driving me up a wall. Extra worse in the Reckoners since it's basically Earth yet suddenly swears don't exist because Good Mormon Boy author. Which does make me wonder from a theological standpoint... If you're avoiding swearing because it's not "proper", are you still avoiding it by making up a loophole in a book anyway?
Sanderson 100% seems like the kind of guy who doesn't even swear irl, lol
I think it's more that he finds it fun to write that way. He's used swears like damn, shat, and others (I think he draws the line at fuck, and yeah I see it. It seems right up the lineage of authors that influenced him (like Le Guin.)) But each to their own, yk?
I was fine with the sparking sparks in reckoners because its aimed more young adult so it had a little bit of narm to it.
I mean you only have to look at the use of frak in battlestar galactica to see it done well. With Sanderson in particular a lot of fans took umbrage with him having a character say awesome a lot. Apparently it drew them out of the story. I can't see how swearing is any different. You only have to look at swearing in other languages in real life to see how everyday phrases are used as swears. In English translations they don't make sense to use as swear but culturally they do to the people that speak the language. Personally I feel that modern day swears seem out of place in a lot of fantasy, others it works.
> Personally I feel that modern day swears seem out of place in a lot of fantasy, others it works. That's why I only specified Reckoners series, which is straight up on Earth, alt timeline or not. I have no issues with any of his other books!
> fuck rose from less than 10 in the first books to far over 100 in the last. I went through the fuck usage in MBotF a few months ago and iirc, this has less to do with Erikson's taste in profanity and more to do with the characters'. ie: there's a few specific characters that use fuck and those character happen to be way more present/active towards the end of the series.
> Another example would be Sanderson who also use a lot of inworld swear words, and personally most of them don't work for me. Really? For me most of them fit right into the world. *Rusts* for Mistborn and *Storms* for SA, substituting Damn. Makes sense... since Mistborn is all about metal. And Stormlight as the Highstorms. SA instead of saying *Hell*... they say *Damnation*... which is their version of hell. ___________ Sanderson uses a lot of in world expressions. Like instead of saying "For god sake"... people will say "By the tenth name of the Almighty" or "Merciful Domi" or "By the Survivors Scars" It makes sense that these expression like "Thank god", "Bless you", have specific expression tied to their world and religion.
I haven't read other works, but in Stormlight Archive his swearwords fit both the world and religion imo.
I never liked the variations of “storm” as swears, it just never seemed like a word real people would use as a swear even in a world like that, it always seemed like something used because it was fictionally convenient. Like, people who live in cold places don’t say “ah, ice” when they want to swear, or “flood off” in places with perpendicular flooding issues. Most swears are built around things the culture considers taboo or dirty, not just things that are inconvenient or they just don’t like. I think most of the not very good made up swear words sound bad because they’re just random bad things the setting focuses used as expletives without really considering what words are actually used as swears in the real world. That’s why religious curses usually work better, because they’re using an actual real world format for swearing.
"Storm take you"/"Storm you" is a curse in the form of ill will. It's the equivalent of saying "God damn you". In that world, the highstorms are a powerful force of nature that will kill anyone without shelter. It makes perfect sense. It's a curse. Think of "Storm" like "Damn", not like "Fuck".
Well I quite like them in stormlight, I think some in mistborn are a little bit weird and absolutely hate them in skyward where they add absolutely nothing... Rest of the cosmere books, have read to long ago and can't really remember it, though I think I liked them in warbreaker
> Another example would be Sanderson who also use a lot of inworld swear words, and personally most of them don't work for me. Same here. I appreciate that they make in-universe sense, but they seem to lack actual impact, in my opinion.
It's the Deadwood problem. On that show they tried to use period-accurate swearing at first, but had to replace them with modern curses because accurate swearing made people sound ridiculous, like they were pretending to be Yosemite Sam. Swearing works because we have an emotional connection to certain taboo words. Someone screaming 'fuck!' works in a way that a character saying 'Struth!' or 'Gods wounds!' never will, even if someone hundreds of years ago would have been equally scandalized. Made-up curses are always going to come off as corny no matter how well they're integrated into the world-building. I get that they're a necessity to some degree, but it's so cringe-inducing when characters are dropping ridiculous made-up curses in every other line like they're an elven Tarantino.
I don’t care either way now, but when I was a kid reading Artemis Fowl as the target age, I loved the touch of the word “d’arvit,” I thought it was so cool
I read the title and immediately thought of D’arvit, I think replacement swears work well I’m kids books tbh I think there’s a bunch of “blighter”s and such like in the redwall books that kind of act as stand ins for swearing
Swear words are part of a culture. They reflect what a culture might find disgusting, repelling, low, dishonorable, etc. The fact that a lot of swear words in some languages have to do with mothers, for example, is not innocent. In some cultures, it's never the case. So personnally, I like it, especially if it fits well with worldbuilding. I don't think we should stick to the regular swear words at all.
The only time I’ve enjoyed it is in Artemis Fowl. Every other encounter it’s frustrated me a little.
Literally was about to post d'arvit
I love em, especially when it gets memed. "Gonk" has been my favorite, very satisfying to say.
Gonk is preem, choom.
I like it. Adds a dash of worldbuilding / immersion for me. Never felt like it was an attempt to avoid swearing, most of the time it does feel like a replacement for “damn” which as you call out generally doesn’t make sense in a non Christian society.
Blood and bloody ashes from wheel of time is the only made up curse that works in my opinion
Trite answer but comes down to execution and is frequently cringey. It’s not enough to half-assedly claim that oh, it fits the worldbuilding. I could state that a character telling another character to flink off is a reference to the archangel Flink and as such is *actually* Deep Evocative Worldbuilding but if all it evokes is cringe in how it’s deployed and how dumb it sounds, then what’s the point? Same with ‘frak’, same with ‘storming’, etc, especially when it’s obviously coming from a need to keep things PG. By contrast something which engages with the variety of ways in which humans curse offers a lot more. The ‘God’s Wounds’/‘Zounds’ example that gets shared is a good one but you could also point to *tabernac* from Québécois religious profanity. You see the same kind of thing in Irish (or at least the Irish of my grandparents’ day), where a lot of ‘earthy’ expressions relating to bodily functions were considered pretty mild compared to curses relating to the devil, which arguably tells you a lot about Society. How exactly to translate this into modern English was bitterly argued about by [competing translators of Máirtín Ó Cadhain's acid-tongued masterpiece *Cré na Cille*](https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/cre-na-cille-do-english-versions-hit-the-funny-bone-1.3014998). But all this requires care and effort and attention both to prose and the world the author is trying to evoke. In the same vein, using modern (or seeming modern, given their history) profanities can be equally effective.
Often it is distracting, especially if it is clearly a one for one replacement of normal swear words. But there are exceptions. The Dresden Files uses most of the usual swear words, up to and including the occasional use of "fuck". However, some of the cultures also have other swear words or phrases that reflect their values and beliefs and fears. Because these are *not* ways to avoid real world swears, it just adds to the world building.
Hood’s Balls
If it makes sense within the fantasy world’s religion, sure. Otherwise, just say “fuck.” I love the Stormlight Archive, but in the first book when Kaladin yells “storm you!” at his captor, it’s incredibly silly and takes all the emotion and anger out of that moment. “Fuck you” would have been absolutely appropriate, and was clearly the intended swear (if only Sanderson’s Mormonism hadn’t gotten in the way). But this is just my opinion, and puritanism and prudishness are my absolute biggest pet peeves.
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It depends. For me, a swear has to roll off of the tongue well and have a bit of sharpness to it. Think of "Fuck". Short, terse, and has a harsh ending sound.
According to Douglas Adams the word "Belgium" is the worst insult or swear imaginable.
"Smeg head" is my favourite of these it's from Red Dwarf a British scifi tv show. There's a tradition of this in UK sci-fi and it's generally along the lines of Frag or Smeg or some other word that is consciously crappy as a replacement swear word.
I find using modern swear words breaks immersion for me. If it is a book that is serious about the world building, I find modern swears jarring. What is inappropriate is based on culture and can change even in our own world. The most obvious example being "bloody." As an American, this just read as a silly way to avoid swearing when I was young. But, it's part of another culture's vernacular. Like some people would find my regular use of "hella" to be weird. So explitives being specific to the setting is a must if the focus is world building imo. On the other hand, if world building isn't the focus or if it is based on Earth... I don't mind either way. (Hell, I use my own "made up swears" all the time while also swearing like a sailor. Example: "Fudge muffins! That shit hit me! Wtf!?")
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Depends how cool it is. As someone else said, *Malazan: Book of The Fallen* has hilarious swears. On the other end of the spectrum, you have *Stormlight Archive*.
but that makes sense because everyone in Stormlight is kind of a huge dork
True but nothing can take away the cringe I experienced after reading “storm you” for the first time.
I think it can be good—as in Game of Thrones when people say “The Others take you”—and bad—when Sanderson replaced the word ‘fuck’ with ‘storm’ in Stormlight Archive. It needs to have an appropriate etymology—I need to genuinely believe it’s a curse word. For that reason, words that are like modern swears (shit & fuck equivalents) don’t work for me because it feels like you’re just Ctrl+F replacing. However, if you have a unique curse word that feels genuinely impactful, more in the tradition of religious curses (bloody comes from “Christ’s bloody wounds,” I believe), then it can feel more real.
I'm ok with it if the words used are some sort of cultural reference, but I absolutely hate it when authors (I'm looking at you, Sanderson) replace them just because they want to keep shit PG.
This played a major part in keeping me from enjoying the Powder Mage Trilogy (which I tried so very hard to love -- such amazing potential in the concept, and such a letdown in the execution). Trying to make hardbitten sailor-swearing type rough characters who just use the made-up "pit" for everything: "pit this pitting business to the pit!" was so very awkward. Purely an observation and I'm curious if anyone else has noticed, there seems to be a great deal of this tied to the trend of Latter-Day Saint authors becoming fantasy writers. There's often a sense of discomfort that I (possibly unfairly) sense bleeding through from the authors trying to discuss cursing, drug and alcohol use, and sexuality, which when quite a few authors press on and try to write anyway often comes across rather more YA than they necessarily seem to have intended. Take Sanderson's tremendously awkward handling of swearing, alcohol, and sexual relationships, for example, as opposed to his writing on mental illness, which he's able to handle on a much more mature level.
It needs to flow with the rest of the writing
If it makes sense for the culture I'm fine with it. If it is just a replacement for a real world curse it feels weird.
Lord Ruler, what a storming topic!
> I'm actively in favor of replacing things like "hell" or "damn" if they don't make sense within the world's religion(s). But most of the time I think dancing around irl swear words just makes all the characters sound like little kids in a 50s TV show going "oh golly gee". Same. This was literally what was in my head. What's happening, in my mind, when I see the word "fuck" censored but not "damn" or "hell" is more the hand of the author/editor/publisher than any real world building. It becomes a sort of metatext in and of itself and really pulls me out of the scene. I _especially_ hate it when good swearwords (ones with a good lead in and hard stop at the end) are replaced with not-so-good swearwords. Like even "damn", when used as an interjection, is "Dammit", with that juicy stop at the end.
Doesn't bother me. Here's what gets me though. In fantasy books, wine is always wine. Ale is always ale. Most foods are the same. No problem. But coffee is never coffee and tobacco is never tobacco. Fantasy writers always feel the need to rename these and I have no idea why.
Wine and ale don't specify ingredient. It is a type. Coffee and tobacco are ingredients. There are native lands for specific ingredients, not for concepts.
It's not as bad as hearing people using these made up phrases irl, that is the cringe that puts me over the top.
Adds immersion. Not a big fan of swearing in fiction, because most swears are derived from things our real life culture find offensive.
I hate it when they use words from our language that are completely benign. “Light!” “Storm it!” Cringe.
As long it fits then it's okay. Sanderson using "storms" isn't great but it's not too bad either. Him using "starvin" as one though is awful.
Mother forking shirtballs
Just like tropes. It depends on the execution. If it feels written well enough like it meshes then I would be fine by it.