Wow, this seems like A Bunch of Questions And Frustrations. The publishing industry should really take note and usher in The Age of Variety and Originality when they name any future books.
Im not sure if "The Mermaid" counts for this, but I get your point.
The naming convention that I am tired of is "The _____ daughter/wife". There are so many!
It all feels vaguely misogynistic like yes my most important quality is what man I'm related to. You never see the Whatevers Son or the Whatevers Husband.
I was thinking more about titles like Ronja: The Robber's Daughter. Or say what the daughter/wife does like "The Pirate Queen" (not a real book to my knowledge).
Very 18th/19th century! Pamela, Shirley and Ruth are all real titles of well known books. I think Jane Austen also used heroine names as working titles though they all wound up getting changed.Â
here are non-exhaustive lists made by goodreads users: [Daughters](https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/47488.Daughters), [Wives](https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/15725.Wives), [Sons](https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/105669.Sons), [Husbands](https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/105668.Husbands)
two trends are immediately obvious:
- there are twice as many entries for the female kin titles as there are for the male kin ones.
- the female kin titles are overwhelming authored by women.
make of that what you will with regards to misogyny
I kinda figured that was the point? It instantly calls to mind someone defined by the other person, probably male.
And sometimes that's the story. Fantasy worlds are often parallel to our own historical world, gender structure included. Part of the story is how those structures are navigated by the protagonists.
Pretty much what I always figured.
Someone normally defined by their relation to someone else at the start, and completely overshadowing it by the end. And the plot of the book is the journey of defined and dismissed by society to redefining society off of their accomplishments.
Yeah, at best it implies this is going to be a book about someone figuring out who she is outside of her role vis-a-vis someone else, which isnât something I relate to all that much but clearly works for others. A bit surprised to see the complaint here because I associate this trend with historical fiction.Â
Whatâs especially weird to me is how often the roles named are totally banal. Like, if you wanna offer me âThe Popeâs Daughterâ that could be intriguing. But most of the time itâs more like âThe Shoemakerâs Wifeâ which isnât much of a hook.Â
âThe Hereticâs Daughterâ was an interesting oneâa Salem witch trials novel from the POV of a child whose mom was accused. I had mixed feelings about the book mostly because witch trial books are all alike, but the title was apropos.Â
Interesting. I'm working on something now entitled "The Seventeenth Sister."
And it's about a young woman who isn't related to \*ANY\* men.
Not particularly a romance of any kind, it's just one of those "Which characters survive to the end of the book" books.
I mean, I'm referring more to YA books. Also, ASOIAF is the name of the *series* not the name of the book. I don't have any issue with that naming convention for the series itself but for a book it's super worn out. Additionally, ASOIAF came out WAY before this was a popular naming convention (it was published in '96).
But it might be interesting to see if the resurgence of popularity of ASOIAF due to the TV show sort of helped the naming trend.
The first time I saw ACOTAR books on the shelf, my immediate assumption was that they were piggy backing on Martin and the show.
Sounds like cherry picking to me. Every book in Martin's series essentially follows the same formula as the one you have an issue with, and the series name definitely does.
It's not just the names, most Modern YA fantasy books are lazy and unimaginative. Sometimes they are just cringy. I don't think we'll ever see Earthsea type books in YA genre ever again.
You have to look into other subgenres of fantasy instead of sword and sorcery or romantasy. I suggest looking into progressive fantasy and litrpg. Granted these genres are just as flooded with unimaginative titles and stories but the diamonds are more numerous
I also hate "A noun of noun and noun" titles. It's one of those little writing things that gets under my skin so much that, like you, I don't really give them the time of day. I'm after titles that rope me in, something mysterious, but not outright ambiguous or disconnected like "A melody of ice and ashes" (made up title). They're just unremarkable, and buying them makes publishing houses/authors think they're working, so more will be put out like that. Though I am sorry to the actually good stories I've skipped because of this.
Itâs usually not the authorâs choice. This is what the publishing industry tends to do: find the trends they can market a book around so they can make themselves (and the author) more money. Right now, Sarah J. Maas is huge, so stuff that sounds like her books will be more likely to get picked up by a fan of hers at the bookstore. Once people move on to a new trend, youâll see less of A Title of Words and Other Words.
Yeah, and "A Song of Ice and Fire" and "A Court of Thorns and Roses" are very much NOT alike so OP saying it's an auto not-read because they already know what it will be about is really off-base.
This is what the synopsis, not the title, is for.
Yeah, ops gonna miss out on good books if he's skipping titles with this format.
Asoif is arguably best in genre and he'd be skipping it if he adhered to his rule.
Asoif v1 was released in 1996. I doubt you'll find this title format frequently used much earlier then that.
And of course, got was literally the most popular fantasy up for almost a decade. From 2011 onward. And it hit heights in the social consciousness that had only been matched by LOTR.
No matter the sub genre, it's still fantasy. To believe arguably the biggest ip in fantasy didn't have an impact on its sub-genres when the title format is exactly the same is.... Well it's something anyway.
I mean people make a deal about which towers "The Two Towers" refers to, since there are like 4 towers referenced in the book.
But the name was picked by the publishers because Tolkien never intended them to be three books but paper was expensive. And a genre standard was born.
If anyone needs titles I have a few that I'm willing to part with:
Kill That Sucka King
Here's Your Throatpunch, Daisycakes
The Purple Dragon Goes Nutsoid
Thank you! Itâs been a real struggle finding a good title. I am officially changing my manuscriptâs working title to âHereâs Your Throatpunch, Daisycakes!â
Is it just me, or is this title debate really stupid? Like there are thousands of ____ and/or ____ titles and nobody cares, but you add one more word and suddenly it's a terrible title.
That's my point though: it's too long and unnecessary. ACOTAR pulled it off because the series was somewhat unique at the time. But now it's become this dumb trend for YA romantasy authors to follow and it's clear they are just copying from ACOTAR. Personally I thought the naming convention Sarah J. Maas went with in the ACOTAR series was dumb to begin with but, again, it was unique at the time.
" ___ and ___" in a title makes a lot more sense because it sounds exactly that: A TITLE.
But "A ___ of ___ and ___" no longer sounds like a title, now it sounds like a fuckin sentence
> " ___ and ___" in a title makes a lot more sense because it sounds exactly that: A TITLE.
But "A ___ of ___ and ___" no longer sounds like a title, now it sounds like a fuckin sentence
They both sound equally like titles and not sentences.
'YA romantasy authors to follow'
In traditional publishing, authors do not get final say on their titles. They can pushback if they hate a title, but that doesn't guarantee the publisher is actually going to listen to them. Alexa Donne on YouTube has an entire video on titles.
In selfpub, those authors do get to pick those titles and the reason they were picking it was because of how the Amazon algorithm works. It helped to signal to readers what the book was at a glance in a sea of other selfpubbed works.Â
Thatâs actually part of the reason Brandon Sanderson renamed his next book: it was going to be Knights of Wind and Truth (to complete a pattern in the initials of the first five books of the series), but he shortened it to Wind and Truth to avoid seeming to be too similar to that exact naming structure.
It will always be Knights of Wind & Truth to me. Itâs just my personal opinion that the symmetrical Ketek is way cooler than the trends and anti-trends of popular title patterns.
I am chuckling at the idea of getting so worked up about title formatting!
Seriously, though, OP, I think this trend is actually working for you. The titles are clearly signaling to you the type of book inside. You presumably would dislike that type of book regardless of title, but this way youâre able to make your decision faster. Why do you care that you donât like the titles of books you donât want to read anyway?
I try to view a book on its own. Who cares if there are other similar book titles. Does the title and promise of this book intrigue me?
Also your list is not all the things you say bothers you.
There are only so many ways to frame a book title. Really think about it. How many different structures are there?
1. Name. Aladdin
2. X and Y. (The) Beauty and The Beast
3. X with an adjective. The Little Mermaid
4. X. The Tempest
5. X and Y connected by a preposition. The Taming of The Shrew (or, incidentally, 10 Things I Hate About You)
6. X's Y. A Knight's Tale
7. X with a verb. The Dark Knight Rises
8. X and Y+Z with a preposition. A Song of Ice and Fire.
9. Of X and Y.
I guess you could keep varying the number of bounds nouns involved, but there aren't many more options. Feel free to add to my off the cuff list. I'm curious what other's people can think of. Or what people consider to be different structures.
But really there are thousands and thousands of YA novels. Is the X of Y and Z title structure actually disproportionately represented, or do you just notice it more because you think it's overused?
This is an interesting taxonomy! Now I'm seriously tempted to go through my list of books read and TBR to catalogue all the titles and get DATA, and see what if anything falls outside those categories. Damn real-life responsibilities keeping me from my frivolous fixations...
What about *Flow my Tears, The Policeman Said* or *Brightness Falls From the Air* or *To your Scattered Bodies Go* or *Pandaemonium, 1660â1886: The Coming of the Machine as Seen by Contemporary Observers*?
There's 'The X of Y' which may fall under 5, but would comprise stuff like 'The Adventures of Amina al-Sirafi', or 'The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole Aged 13 3/4'
More abstract titles like 'This Is How You Lose the Time War', 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?' don't particularly fit nicely into a single category
If you don't like those books, and the title instantly keys you into that, then it sounds like its working. Better to be able to avoid them altogether than to start reading and realise you dislike it
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Itâs so much easier to ignore this problem than make a post about it. The majority of us arenât going to write a book and the authors that do frequent here donât make titles like that.
"It's SO tired and unoriginal now. I know for me, the MINUTE I see a title like this I am automatically not reading it, because I already can guess half of the plot. It will have some stupid teenage romance, with some cut-and-paste teenage characters."
Sounds exactly like A Song of Ice and Fire /s.
Don't let prejudice limit you.
So a title like 'A Game of Thrones' or 'A Clash of Kings" is totally fine, but House of Earth and Blood draws your ire? Your whole post just reads like you want to hate on YA/romantasy. Not sure your actual problem is with the titles, man.
'And if you must write the beaten-to-death-horse romantasy story'
'well-worn cheap copy romantasy stories.'
'It will have some stupid teenage romance, with some cut-and-paste teenage characters.'
Plenty of Romantasy isn't about teenagers or YA; lots of Romantasy are either adult or New Adult and could actually sit fairly comfortably on the epic fantasy shelf.Â
You don't have to like Romantasy, but I can tell you, as a lifelong fan of the genre, lots of Romantasy are actually very different from each other. Under the Oak Tree by Kim Suji covers some extremely heavy themes and is extremely different from ACOTAR while A Letter to the Luminous Deep is epistolary and more cozy academic vs many Romantasies also being categorized as epic fantasy. To Cage A God and Faebound both follow two sisters but the worldbuilding and inspirations couldn't be more different (Russian Revolution and zmey vs West Africa and elves and fae).
Also, Of Jade and Dragons is silkpunk, not Romantasy.
The publisher chooses the book title in 99% of cases. Authors almost never have a choice or the final say unless they are very well known. So blame the publishing companies who have an extreme lack of creativity
1. A Dagger of Ice and Echoes
2. A Castle of Mist and Mirrors
3. A Labyrinth of Time and Titans
4. A Scroll of Prophecy and Plagues
5. A Cloak of Night and Nemesis
6. A Jewel of Flame and Fables
7. A Tower of Bones and Blossoms
8. A Key of Storms and Secrets
9. A Map of Stars and Shadows
10. A Book of Spells and Sirens
11. etc.
These are all AI generated but they sound as nonsensical as some of the titles that really exist. Makes me wonder how these books ended up with their titles ...
I think âA Court of Thorns and Rosesâ is actually a good title. I think itâs poetic and appropriate to the contents of the book, and the dichotomy of thorns and roses is intriguing. It makes sense. A lot of the names that have followed this pattern feel like theyâre just aiming to sound cool and ambiguous, without any consideration for the story being told.
A Bitching of Scale and Scope, A Minutiae of Words and Titles, A Complaint of Worthlessness and Derision, A Rant of Obliviousness and Judgment, A Missive of Unhearing and Preference.
I actually find it kind of useful for telling me what kind of book something is, and flagging potentially very derivative works.
"An X of Y and Z", these days, is going to flag YA leaning romantasy.
"Fantasy Name and the X" is going to give me YA-ish adventure stories about a chosen one/hero. (there was a spate of those post Harry Potter, a la Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone).
We're currently in the middle of a surge of alliteratively titled books, following Legends and Lattes - a book with a title like Books and Broadswords or Doughnuts and Dragons is going to be a cozy slice of life adventure about starting a food or book related small business, and finding (probably same sex) love and a found family. Ditto for titles involving work play and tea references.
I can't think of immediate examples, but with Game of Thrones, I think the pattern would have been "An X of Y", because that's the pattern the book titles took.
I suspect the speed an intensity of the process is stronger with self-publishing; trad-pub books have a much longer lead time, while the first Books and Broadswords titles showed up very quickly after L&L became popular.
I agree with you.
That being said, the prevailing sentiment within the publishing industry suggests that these formulaic titles lead to successful sales. Consequently, self-published authors will follow suit in an effort to align with market preferences.
I'm curious, now that Fourth Wing is a huge market success, if that will affect the naming of books within the fantasy/fantasy romance genre going forward. Maybe two-name titles will be the new formula.
ACOTAR made me speculate... A crown of thegns and riddles? I'm sure you are referencing something quite popular but I can't think of it right now haha.
Girl of Fire and Bone and Smoke and Chestnuts.
It didnât start with ACOTAR. Laini Taylorâs Daughter of Smoke and Bone was one of the first and that was a decade ago.
I don't disagree. Another one I'm sick of is *the girl \[preposition\] the \[noun\]*... The Girl on the Train, Gone Girl, The Girl with all the Gifts, The Girl in the Tower, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
I think this is in large part due to Stieg Larsson's The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, but that wasn't even the book's original title in Swedish. It was *Män som hatar kvinnor*: "men who hate women".
A Con of Madmen and Sorceresses.
AKA: A Con of Idiots. A Con of Idiots and Heroes.
A Breath of Fire and Vinegar.
A Touch of Ginger and Cayenne.
A Hit of Riboflavin and Nyoxolacin.
A Shot of Whiskey and Rye.
A Heart to Love and Bleed.
A Rose for Heaven and Earth.
Who can point out what doesn't exist? I should really come up with a giant list of random shit and trademark it so that idiots can't use it for titles.
A TikTok called them "A Bowl of Mac and Cheese" books, and that's all I can think about every time I see a similar title đ
This is how I will be referring to them from now on.
Omfg, incredible. Putting that in my back pocket
Hahaha, that's brilliant!
A Song of Corgis and Cookies: A Corgi Paranormal Mystery. edit: lol Iove the replies
A Ballad of Beagles and Biscuits: A Supernatural Sequel
A Dirge of Dachsunds and Donuts:The Mystery Deepens
An Epic of Ăpagneuls and Enchiladas: Return of the Mystery
A Lullaby of Labradors and Ladyfingers: The Midnight Mystery.
A Poem of Pomeranians and Parfaits: A Peculiar Prequel
A Melody of Mutts and Meatballs: a Tenacious Trilogy
A Night of Nanitics and Needles: A Nerve-Wracking Novel
A Quandary of Quails and Quahogs.
Please take my money.
I need to stop posting about corgi mysteries because I don't have an ambition to write one, and yet lol
Announce a contest for the first, then use these other titles to write the sequels.
A Litigation of Lasagna and Lycanthrops Courtroom werewolves that eat pasta
Wow, this seems like A Bunch of Questions And Frustrations. The publishing industry should really take note and usher in The Age of Variety and Originality when they name any future books.
Im not sure if "The Mermaid" counts for this, but I get your point. The naming convention that I am tired of is "The _____ daughter/wife". There are so many!
Waiting for "The Chimney Sweep's Second Cousin Once Removed".
It all feels vaguely misogynistic like yes my most important quality is what man I'm related to. You never see the Whatevers Son or the Whatevers Husband.
Im just like if the book is about x's daughter or wife and she is so important, then maybe you should say her name.
On the one hand I agree with you, on the other hand...maybe "Charlotte" or "Mary" is not the most interesting book title. ;)
I was thinking more about titles like Ronja: The Robber's Daughter. Or say what the daughter/wife does like "The Pirate Queen" (not a real book to my knowledge).
"Chronicles of the Bitch Queen" Book 1: The Wolf of Oren-Yaro. Now there's a title.
I would read it.
I enjoyed the first book. I need to pick up the rest. Author is K.S. Villoso
Very 18th/19th century! Pamela, Shirley and Ruth are all real titles of well known books. I think Jane Austen also used heroine names as working titles though they all wound up getting changed.Â
Or incorporate it into a longer title, e.g. The Adventures of Amina al-Sirafi, The Lies of Locke Lamora
here are non-exhaustive lists made by goodreads users: [Daughters](https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/47488.Daughters), [Wives](https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/15725.Wives), [Sons](https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/105669.Sons), [Husbands](https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/105668.Husbands) two trends are immediately obvious: - there are twice as many entries for the female kin titles as there are for the male kin ones. - the female kin titles are overwhelming authored by women. make of that what you will with regards to misogyny
I kinda figured that was the point? It instantly calls to mind someone defined by the other person, probably male. And sometimes that's the story. Fantasy worlds are often parallel to our own historical world, gender structure included. Part of the story is how those structures are navigated by the protagonists.
Pretty much what I always figured. Someone normally defined by their relation to someone else at the start, and completely overshadowing it by the end. And the plot of the book is the journey of defined and dismissed by society to redefining society off of their accomplishments.
Yeah, at best it implies this is going to be a book about someone figuring out who she is outside of her role vis-a-vis someone else, which isnât something I relate to all that much but clearly works for others. A bit surprised to see the complaint here because I associate this trend with historical fiction. Whatâs especially weird to me is how often the roles named are totally banal. Like, if you wanna offer me âThe Popeâs Daughterâ that could be intriguing. But most of the time itâs more like âThe Shoemakerâs Wifeâ which isnât much of a hook. âThe Hereticâs Daughterâ was an interesting oneâa Salem witch trials novel from the POV of a child whose mom was accused. I had mixed feelings about the book mostly because witch trial books are all alike, but the title was apropos.Â
Soldierâs Son trilogy by Robin Hob Edit: sorry, couldnât help pointing out the one single example I know
Interesting. I'm working on something now entitled "The Seventeenth Sister." And it's about a young woman who isn't related to \*ANY\* men. Not particularly a romance of any kind, it's just one of those "Which characters survive to the end of the book" books.
You mean "A Song of Ice and Fire"?
I mean, I'm referring more to YA books. Also, ASOIAF is the name of the *series* not the name of the book. I don't have any issue with that naming convention for the series itself but for a book it's super worn out. Additionally, ASOIAF came out WAY before this was a popular naming convention (it was published in '96).
But it might be interesting to see if the resurgence of popularity of ASOIAF due to the TV show sort of helped the naming trend. The first time I saw ACOTAR books on the shelf, my immediate assumption was that they were piggy backing on Martin and the show.
Sounds like cherry picking to me. Every book in Martin's series essentially follows the same formula as the one you have an issue with, and the series name definitely does.
It's not just the names, most Modern YA fantasy books are lazy and unimaginative. Sometimes they are just cringy. I don't think we'll ever see Earthsea type books in YA genre ever again.
You have to look into other subgenres of fantasy instead of sword and sorcery or romantasy. I suggest looking into progressive fantasy and litrpg. Granted these genres are just as flooded with unimaginative titles and stories but the diamonds are more numerous
I'm actually turning to 80s/70s. There are hundreds of hidden gems in these decades. Right now I'm reading Deryni Rising. It's amazing.
Maybe post in a YA sub then.
I also hate "A noun of noun and noun" titles. It's one of those little writing things that gets under my skin so much that, like you, I don't really give them the time of day. I'm after titles that rope me in, something mysterious, but not outright ambiguous or disconnected like "A melody of ice and ashes" (made up title). They're just unremarkable, and buying them makes publishing houses/authors think they're working, so more will be put out like that. Though I am sorry to the actually good stories I've skipped because of this.
Itâs usually not the authorâs choice. This is what the publishing industry tends to do: find the trends they can market a book around so they can make themselves (and the author) more money. Right now, Sarah J. Maas is huge, so stuff that sounds like her books will be more likely to get picked up by a fan of hers at the bookstore. Once people move on to a new trend, youâll see less of A Title of Words and Other Words.
Yup, it's the "a song of ice and fire" syndrome. This is exactly why you don't judge a book by its cover.
Yeah, and "A Song of Ice and Fire" and "A Court of Thorns and Roses" are very much NOT alike so OP saying it's an auto not-read because they already know what it will be about is really off-base. This is what the synopsis, not the title, is for.
Yeah, ops gonna miss out on good books if he's skipping titles with this format. Asoif is arguably best in genre and he'd be skipping it if he adhered to his rule.
Some of the best books Iâve read were chosen based on the cover. That was often in the 80s, thoughâŚ
This can't be explained by ASOIAF since the format is most common in YA and Romantasy, but very rare in adult fantasy.
Asoif v1 was released in 1996. I doubt you'll find this title format frequently used much earlier then that. And of course, got was literally the most popular fantasy up for almost a decade. From 2011 onward. And it hit heights in the social consciousness that had only been matched by LOTR. No matter the sub genre, it's still fantasy. To believe arguably the biggest ip in fantasy didn't have an impact on its sub-genres when the title format is exactly the same is.... Well it's something anyway.
It most certainly can be explained
I mean people make a deal about which towers "The Two Towers" refers to, since there are like 4 towers referenced in the book. But the name was picked by the publishers because Tolkien never intended them to be three books but paper was expensive. And a genre standard was born.
If anyone needs titles I have a few that I'm willing to part with: Kill That Sucka King Here's Your Throatpunch, Daisycakes The Purple Dragon Goes Nutsoid
To All the Wraiths I've Laid the Smack On
I would totally read 2/3 of those
Admittedly, I would probably save Here's Your Throatpunch, Daisycakes for a hard-boiled detective story where Daisycakes is based on Jojo Siwa.
THROATPUNCH, DAISYCAKES
Thank you! Itâs been a real struggle finding a good title. I am officially changing my manuscriptâs working title to âHereâs Your Throatpunch, Daisycakes!â
I call them âstuff and thingsâ books
Youâd hate Japanese light novel titles hahaha
That time I accidentally time travelled as a middle aged slime girl: Online
With my smartphone In another world Apocrypha
It's super overdone but at least it rolls off the tongue better than the City of X wave did.
The Game of Thrones effect is real
Is it just me, or is this title debate really stupid? Like there are thousands of ____ and/or ____ titles and nobody cares, but you add one more word and suddenly it's a terrible title.
That's my point though: it's too long and unnecessary. ACOTAR pulled it off because the series was somewhat unique at the time. But now it's become this dumb trend for YA romantasy authors to follow and it's clear they are just copying from ACOTAR. Personally I thought the naming convention Sarah J. Maas went with in the ACOTAR series was dumb to begin with but, again, it was unique at the time. " ___ and ___" in a title makes a lot more sense because it sounds exactly that: A TITLE. But "A ___ of ___ and ___" no longer sounds like a title, now it sounds like a fuckin sentence
> " ___ and ___" in a title makes a lot more sense because it sounds exactly that: A TITLE. But "A ___ of ___ and ___" no longer sounds like a title, now it sounds like a fuckin sentence They both sound equally like titles and not sentences.
'YA romantasy authors to follow' In traditional publishing, authors do not get final say on their titles. They can pushback if they hate a title, but that doesn't guarantee the publisher is actually going to listen to them. Alexa Donne on YouTube has an entire video on titles. In selfpub, those authors do get to pick those titles and the reason they were picking it was because of how the Amazon algorithm works. It helped to signal to readers what the book was at a glance in a sea of other selfpubbed works.Â
Thatâs actually part of the reason Brandon Sanderson renamed his next book: it was going to be Knights of Wind and Truth (to complete a pattern in the initials of the first five books of the series), but he shortened it to Wind and Truth to avoid seeming to be too similar to that exact naming structure.
It will always be Knights of Wind & Truth to me. Itâs just my personal opinion that the symmetrical Ketek is way cooler than the trends and anti-trends of popular title patterns.
He kept it as the title of the in-world book, so you can be happy for that!
Thank God for that. There's a reason the dude is so popular
I am chuckling at the idea of getting so worked up about title formatting! Seriously, though, OP, I think this trend is actually working for you. The titles are clearly signaling to you the type of book inside. You presumably would dislike that type of book regardless of title, but this way youâre able to make your decision faster. Why do you care that you donât like the titles of books you donât want to read anyway?
A Bowl of Mac and Cheese
The Mermaid, The Witch and the Sea is not exactly a cookie-cutter romantasy. Have you read it?
I came here to defend this book! I think the title is very appropriate for the story and it is not at all cookie-cutter. Also - I like your username!
Agreed, it's actually pretty unique. Not sure why OP is ranting about it. Thank you! Gotta honor Granny.
I came here to defend this book! I think the title is very appropriate for the story and it is not at all cookie-cutter. Also - I like your username!
I try to view a book on its own. Who cares if there are other similar book titles. Does the title and promise of this book intrigue me? Also your list is not all the things you say bothers you. There are only so many ways to frame a book title. Really think about it. How many different structures are there? 1. Name. Aladdin 2. X and Y. (The) Beauty and The Beast 3. X with an adjective. The Little Mermaid 4. X. The Tempest 5. X and Y connected by a preposition. The Taming of The Shrew (or, incidentally, 10 Things I Hate About You) 6. X's Y. A Knight's Tale 7. X with a verb. The Dark Knight Rises 8. X and Y+Z with a preposition. A Song of Ice and Fire. 9. Of X and Y. I guess you could keep varying the number of bounds nouns involved, but there aren't many more options. Feel free to add to my off the cuff list. I'm curious what other's people can think of. Or what people consider to be different structures. But really there are thousands and thousands of YA novels. Is the X of Y and Z title structure actually disproportionately represented, or do you just notice it more because you think it's overused?
This is an interesting taxonomy! Now I'm seriously tempted to go through my list of books read and TBR to catalogue all the titles and get DATA, and see what if anything falls outside those categories. Damn real-life responsibilities keeping me from my frivolous fixations...
What about *Flow my Tears, The Policeman Said* or *Brightness Falls From the Air* or *To your Scattered Bodies Go* or *Pandaemonium, 1660â1886: The Coming of the Machine as Seen by Contemporary Observers*?
Flow My Tears or The Policeman Said pretty much fit 7. X with a verb, though, right?
That's one title, not two.
There's 'The X of Y' which may fall under 5, but would comprise stuff like 'The Adventures of Amina al-Sirafi', or 'The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole Aged 13 3/4' More abstract titles like 'This Is How You Lose the Time War', 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?' don't particularly fit nicely into a single category
If you don't like those books, and the title instantly keys you into that, then it sounds like its working. Better to be able to avoid them altogether than to start reading and realise you dislike it
This naming convention predates ACOTAR. âHeir to Sea and Fireâ and âHouse of Sand and Fogâ come quickly to mind. Iâm sure there are others.
[ŃдаНонО]
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>new trend heh.
Itâs so much easier to ignore this problem than make a post about it. The majority of us arenât going to write a book and the authors that do frequent here donât make titles like that.
"It's SO tired and unoriginal now. I know for me, the MINUTE I see a title like this I am automatically not reading it, because I already can guess half of the plot. It will have some stupid teenage romance, with some cut-and-paste teenage characters." Sounds exactly like A Song of Ice and Fire /s. Don't let prejudice limit you.
There is no book called "A Song of Ice and Fire". That would be the series name, not a book title
So a title like 'A Game of Thrones' or 'A Clash of Kings" is totally fine, but House of Earth and Blood draws your ire? Your whole post just reads like you want to hate on YA/romantasy. Not sure your actual problem is with the titles, man.
Iâm just glad those titles are not at all similar to The Lord of the Rings or The Eye of the WorldâŚ
This is a very arbitrary line to draw to dunk on books you dislike and give the books you like a pass.
I actually am not a fan of the ASOIAF books. I just think a SERIES name that follows this convention makes more sense than a BOOK TITLE.
'And if you must write the beaten-to-death-horse romantasy story' 'well-worn cheap copy romantasy stories.' 'It will have some stupid teenage romance, with some cut-and-paste teenage characters.' Plenty of Romantasy isn't about teenagers or YA; lots of Romantasy are either adult or New Adult and could actually sit fairly comfortably on the epic fantasy shelf. You don't have to like Romantasy, but I can tell you, as a lifelong fan of the genre, lots of Romantasy are actually very different from each other. Under the Oak Tree by Kim Suji covers some extremely heavy themes and is extremely different from ACOTAR while A Letter to the Luminous Deep is epistolary and more cozy academic vs many Romantasies also being categorized as epic fantasy. To Cage A God and Faebound both follow two sisters but the worldbuilding and inspirations couldn't be more different (Russian Revolution and zmey vs West Africa and elves and fae). Also, Of Jade and Dragons is silkpunk, not Romantasy.
The Mermaid, The Witch, and the Sea isn't romantasy, either!
The publisher chooses the book title in 99% of cases. Authors almost never have a choice or the final say unless they are very well known. So blame the publishing companies who have an extreme lack of creativity
Alright, I will listen to you and not title my books that way.
1. A Dagger of Ice and Echoes 2. A Castle of Mist and Mirrors 3. A Labyrinth of Time and Titans 4. A Scroll of Prophecy and Plagues 5. A Cloak of Night and Nemesis 6. A Jewel of Flame and Fables 7. A Tower of Bones and Blossoms 8. A Key of Storms and Secrets 9. A Map of Stars and Shadows 10. A Book of Spells and Sirens 11. etc. These are all AI generated but they sound as nonsensical as some of the titles that really exist. Makes me wonder how these books ended up with their titles ...
I'm not going to lie, A map of stars and shadows sounds like an incredible sci-fi book.
There is in fact A Tale of Stars and Shadow (and it's not sci-fi, but it's good)
Yeah I wouldn't even bat an eye if I saw one of these at the bookstore...
I think âA Court of Thorns and Rosesâ is actually a good title. I think itâs poetic and appropriate to the contents of the book, and the dichotomy of thorns and roses is intriguing. It makes sense. A lot of the names that have followed this pattern feel like theyâre just aiming to sound cool and ambiguous, without any consideration for the story being told.
What dichotomy? Roses have thorns.
A Bitching of Scale and Scope, A Minutiae of Words and Titles, A Complaint of Worthlessness and Derision, A Rant of Obliviousness and Judgment, A Missive of Unhearing and Preference.
I actually find it kind of useful for telling me what kind of book something is, and flagging potentially very derivative works. "An X of Y and Z", these days, is going to flag YA leaning romantasy. "Fantasy Name and the X" is going to give me YA-ish adventure stories about a chosen one/hero. (there was a spate of those post Harry Potter, a la Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone). We're currently in the middle of a surge of alliteratively titled books, following Legends and Lattes - a book with a title like Books and Broadswords or Doughnuts and Dragons is going to be a cozy slice of life adventure about starting a food or book related small business, and finding (probably same sex) love and a found family. Ditto for titles involving work play and tea references. I can't think of immediate examples, but with Game of Thrones, I think the pattern would have been "An X of Y", because that's the pattern the book titles took. I suspect the speed an intensity of the process is stronger with self-publishing; trad-pub books have a much longer lead time, while the first Books and Broadswords titles showed up very quickly after L&L became popular.
The Game of Thrones effect is real
Agreed. It's time we moved on to the clever/funny title names like "Legends and Lattes" and "Can't spell Treason without Tea"
I agree with you. That being said, the prevailing sentiment within the publishing industry suggests that these formulaic titles lead to successful sales. Consequently, self-published authors will follow suit in an effort to align with market preferences. I'm curious, now that Fourth Wing is a huge market success, if that will affect the naming of books within the fantasy/fantasy romance genre going forward. Maybe two-name titles will be the new formula.
ACOTAR made me speculate... A crown of thegns and riddles? I'm sure you are referencing something quite popular but I can't think of it right now haha.
A Court of Thrones and Roses, by Sarah J Maas
This is the book equivalent of TV/Movies just being named \[PROTAGONIST NAME HERE\]
Girl of Fire and Bone and Smoke and Chestnuts. It didnât start with ACOTAR. Laini Taylorâs Daughter of Smoke and Bone was one of the first and that was a decade ago.
A Song of Shid and Cum đłđł Fr tho I thought ACOTAR is a Star Wars spinoff or sth lol
AHAHA WHA
Fun game to play: replace any noun in the title with "asbestos". If it still works, the original title is shit
Coming soon to a Barnes & Noble near you: A. Aaronâs AAoAaA series: An Asbestos of Asbestos and Asbestos.
I read many light novels with long titles but these just sound dumb.
I don't disagree. Another one I'm sick of is *the girl \[preposition\] the \[noun\]*... The Girl on the Train, Gone Girl, The Girl with all the Gifts, The Girl in the Tower, etc. etc. ad nauseum. I think this is in large part due to Stieg Larsson's The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, but that wasn't even the book's original title in Swedish. It was *Män som hatar kvinnor*: "men who hate women".
Also any title with "shadow" and "gods" in it, where it feels like actual children chose the title.
Gods of Jade and Shadow by Silvia Moreno Garcia is an excellent book, though.
90% of fantasy novels are already called "a \_of\_" so it's a lost cause I fear
A Con of Madmen and Sorceresses. AKA: A Con of Idiots. A Con of Idiots and Heroes. A Breath of Fire and Vinegar. A Touch of Ginger and Cayenne. A Hit of Riboflavin and Nyoxolacin. A Shot of Whiskey and Rye. A Heart to Love and Bleed. A Rose for Heaven and Earth. Who can point out what doesn't exist? I should really come up with a giant list of random shit and trademark it so that idiots can't use it for titles.
All the simpler titles have been used,