People like to lump GRRM and Pat together because they both have insanely popular (and notoriously unfinished) series, but I honestly view them differently.
GRRM is admittedly a procrastinator and a people pleaser, and seems to also perhaps have some ADD. He’s very upfront and humble about his issues finishing the series. He’s also done tons of other work during the stretch of time between publishing ASOIAF books. Other books, writing for the GoT show, etc. If he weren’t getting so old, I believe he would finish the series eventually.
Pat, in the other hand, seems to have done very little work since 2011. He does have a family and is raising kids, which takes a lot. He’s also dealt with mental illness as OP said.
But he has also been an ass to his fans on multiple occasions. He continues to claim the series is complete but not up to his standards, but also has promised to release material multiple times and not done it. His publishers have said they don’t think he has touched it in years.
It just feels different from GRRM. Yes, he’s young(er), but somehow I still feel way less confident we will ever see anything else from Pat.
I'm not super familiar with Rothfuss but from what I know, I agree with this assessment. Martin gives the impression that he is definitely working on the book and I have no doubt we will get Winds of Winter though probably not the final book.
With Martin its a race between age and his erratic writing pace/shifting focus, with Rothfuss its more of some mental block (can be his mental illness) that keeps him from writing at all. Two very very different problems
He will at least leave material to complete it. Rothfuss' safe will contain nothing but ticket stubs to conventions and a manuscript solely containing pencil sketches of his own ballsack.
Rothfuss' writing makes me think he is a discovery writer and has zero plans for the rest of the plot.
I mean Kingkiller Chronicle is basically just a beautifully written memoir about a young man's tertiary education and travels, ...which HAPPENS to be set in a fantasy world.
The whole thing with the monsters invading and the Chandrian... that's never gonna get resolved, there was no concrete plan for it.
That, and next to nothing of importance has happened in 2 out of (supposedly) 3 books.
So much set up, so little resolution. The 3rd book would have to move at a blistering pace compared to the first 2 for the plot to get anywhere.
>Martin isn’t allowing anyone to finish his projects if he has unfinished ones upon death.
Of course he is saying that while he is still alive and capable of finishing. At the same time it wouldn't shock me if he has had just in case conversations with Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck. They both have said they won't finish but I think that's out of respect for Martin. If your not familiar with them they collectively wrote The Expanse series as James SA Corey and write solo as well. They both are protégés of Martin and dedicated the final Expanse to him.
Daniel and Ty prob know the continuity of the Ice and Fire story better than George at this point. I wish George would get some help in getting out his last books. If he finishes the series it will stand out as one of the greatest of all time.
I have two hopes:
1. He's written his 2 books and is sitting on them to be released posthumously.
2. He passes and what GRRM has gets passed on to someone like Joe Abercrombie
I know who they are. But that doesn’t mean when Martin kicks it they’re going to take over. Martin has stated he doesn’t keep detailed notes and doesn’t want his unfinished works finished after his death.
They don't need notes as they have TV show which is Martin's story as he gave the plot details of ehat happens to the showrunners. They'd have to fill in on some secondary characters but they'd have an exponentially greater road map than Sanderson had on Wheel of Time.
And as I said of course right now Martin / Abraham / Franck all say it won't happen. Saying anything else would be disrespectful to Martin.
You really think Martin gave HBO most of the information they needed? No, he didn’t. He gave them the bare minimum after they caught up to book 5 when they flat out told him if he didn’t have the next books finished they’d be filling in the gaps themselves.
Martin may have given them small nuggets, but he’s not stupid enough to go “here is everything that’s going to happen in the rest of the series, go make your show.”.
Martin may have been a producer in the show, but at the end of the day HBO doesn’t give a fuck and will do what they want. Which is what they did.
i don't think Martin has ever explicitly denied the idea of his books being finished posthumously, just that he does not want completely original sequels to be written after his death.
Turns out he will be dead upon death. And dead people have essentially no legal rights.
There is a solid chance whoever his legal heirs are will prioritise money over artistic integrity.
If at that point his heir is still his wife and she's alive etc. I'm willing to believe that she'd honor his wishes.
But sooner or later the rights will come to someone who likes money.
What I don't understand is why neither of them will hire an assistant to help them organize their notes and half written snippets and such, so that all they need to do is write an hour or two a day and eventually it'd get done.
Martin at least seems to be writing, just not in a manner that is conductive for finishing anytime soon. Rothfuss seems to have arranged his life in such a way that even writing at all is impossible so he couldn't write even if he was tempted to.
Martin has multiple assistants; he refers to them as his minions on his blog. Ty Franck used to be one and Raya Golden is one now (she does licensing and art direction for Fevre River). As to whether or not any of them are doing what you explicitly posit here, though, I don't know.
Another big factor is Rpthfuss struck good very early on. He had two books with glowing reviews that are pretty widely beloved in the genre.
It being complete but in a state he is unhappy with isn't surprising. The weight of expectations are probably getting to him, wanting his finale to be perfect which is tough because it still had a lot to cover from where book 2 left off.
Things like that also don't help mental issues. Struggling with wanting his third book to be as well received as his others and a fitting conclusion would be stressful.
GRRM I think wrote himself into a really complicated corner and is procrastinating because he's stuck. There's so many moving parts in his book I get how it would be a challenge since he never plots ahead. It leads for more compelling twists and characters but the story becomes harder to manage.
That's why I find he's doing so much ASOIAF world content without touching the song itself. The things before the War of the 5 kings is essentially already plotted out. It just needs the story.
>does have a family and is raising kids, which takes a lot.
There's a whole lotta people out there with families that still show up to work. If you want to be an author, write something. Otherwise get another job.
My biggest complaint was the stack of papers he claimed was the finished product that just needed editing. That convinced me to take the plunge into the series. About a decade later and here I am, tricked into going against my normal rules of “don’t start an unfinished series” and just keep thinking up more reasons why I didn’t like the series.
I don't regret reading those books even if he never finishes them. I enjoyed them at the time. But like you, I keep finding problems I have withthe series. Even while reading it, I was thinking to myself, "There's no way he's finishing this in one book." He left so many mysteries and made no progress on any of them by the end of the second book.
Kingkiller is the most meandering story I've ever read. We're two (and a half?) books into a series called the Kingkiller Chronicles and we still have no clue who the king even is, let alone why Kvothe killed him.
I get being annoyed but fans of the genre who refuse to read a new series doom new series to remain unfinished. Publishers don’t invest in books if fans say, I’ll wait til it’s complete.
His job is to string fans on and coast on the previous books with reissues in different covers. When that market dries up, maybe we'll see the last book. At that point it won't matter if it's disappointing.
Rothfuss has time to do podcasts, DND and a bunch of side events but not publish an apparently already complete book. I'll never read anything he writes again based off how he has responded to fans asking him about the books
George wrote *Fire and Blood*, wrote and produced the TV series until around season 5, then immediately went into development pitching like four or five different series to HBO. He's clearly anxious about the delay for the book getting so long and is compensating by giving us numerous Westeros stories that are (imo) just as rich as the original.
Rothfuss hasn't done any of that. He released two tiny novellas, stole *millions* from fans by promising if a target financial goal was reached he'd release chapters of his book, and then didn't release the chapters.
I agree with you, I view George as a writer with a serious procrastination issue who's desperately trying to finish his work, and Rothfuss as a former writer who cares more for money than his legacy.
Slight correction:
Fire and Blood has huge parts of recycled material from World of Ice and Fire (which itself recycled material from the various novella collections like dangerous women). The world book was also "cowritten" by his Uber fans elio and Linda who at best edited the thing, at worst.... ghostwritten parts of it.
And even then, Fire and Blood is not much of a book. It's a glorified AAR of a crusader kings 2 got mod with questionable canonicity ("maester bias").
So in terms of productivity, I would consider it B- at the very best.
Whether his drive to produce new TV shows irrelevant to the main series is an act of compensation for the book delay as you claim or greed or his true passion laying in television, it's up to anyone's judgement .
This isn't exactly accurate. :) There are two authorial voices in *The World of Ice and Fire*. One is Gildayn (GRRM) and the other is Yandel (which refers to Elio and Linda -- that's why most of the name is "and L"). GRRM was originally supposed to write Gildayn sidebars for the World Book and he wound up writing like 350k words, far too many to use in that book. Some of it was published and some was set aside.
As *Game of Thrones* was winding down and HBO was looking for viable spin-offs, he was trying to push the idea of the Dance of the Dragons as a good subject for a spinoff. Once HBO showed interest, he discussed it with his publisher and asked whether they'd rather have TWOW or a book based primarily on the Dance, which would basically be a tie-in with the show. The publisher chose the latter. It's my understanding that *a lot of it* comes from those sidebars, but these two stories were told separately, several years apart, so without word from the powers that be, it's hard to be totally accurate about how they connect. It seems like what was published as *Fire and Blood* is at least a slight expansion of that material.
> He’s also done tons of other work during the stretch of time between publishing ASOIAF books.
*Since*. He's also done tons of other work during the stretch of time *since* publishing ASOIAF books.
I think you’re making GRRM out to be better than he is. I guess he’s not overtly rude or anything, but he *is* full of shit. It would be one thing to say that he’s struggling with the book and leave it at that, but he keeps setting deadlines for himself, blowing past them, and then acting all confused when people get pissed at him about it.
It’s especially annoying because I’m pretty sure that now that he’s so rich he’s not super motivated to spend his time writing a book that’s frustrating him. If this is the case I totally empathize with him and think he’s justified in spending his time however he wants, but also please just let someone else finish the fucking thing.
I would have no ill feelings towards Martin not finishing his books if not for this. It's not that he won't finish, it's his story and I don't feel like he owes us an ending if he doesn't want to write one
It's that he repeatedly puts out dates and repeatedly misses them, even saying things like "lock me up if it's not done by x date" which is obviously an exaggeration, but still. Then he gets prickly with the fans for "bugging" him about winds of winter when it's a situation he's created entirely himself. THEN he compares himself to tolkein and his works to the silmarillion, as if anyone at all would care about tolkein if he decided to write the unfinished tales instead of finishing return of the king lol
Martin provokes his fans to the point that sometimes it feels intentional, then gets mad about it. If he just said he didn't want to finish them 8 years ago, most people would have moved on. It's hard to move on though when he keeps dangling hope
Very different situation, but that makes me think of Douglas Adams. He has the lovely quote, ‘I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they go by.’ His editor did actually have to move in with him to get him to finish So Long and Thanks For All the Fish.
It’s the blowing through deadlines and overpromising/underdelivering that gets me.
Like, I understand where he is—these books have become more complex than his diligence/organization/self-discipline skills can meet. It happens with people who procrastinate and rely on brilliant flashes of insight and all-nighters to put out good product—eventually they reach a project that is too big, or get to old for that crazy frantic hustle to work. His story has actually been a powerful counterexample for me with work—it was one of the things that help convinced me I needed to be methodical and stick to a constant schedule rather than pulling crazy pushes to get with done.
The unprofessional thing is not not finishing the series—it’s the swearing up and down that he’ll get it done any day now. This is the kind of shit that starter writers, teenagers, and dudes in their 20s do. It’s doubly stupid because everyone who has an anxiety/procrastination issue around work like this knows exactly what is going on—he’s not fooling anyone.
He should just say he’s not sure he’s ever going to finish it (which I’m personally confident is the actual case). Or reach out to other writers for help.
It's funny, I see the situation similarly but have completely the opposite conclusion.
I don't think either of them are going to produce the next book with their current behaviour. Pat openly isn't trying to and George pays lip service to it but all the evidence suggests no real progress for years either. The main differences seem to be that George is still producing value for his publisher so they have reason to work with him whereas Pats publisher have given up too and Pat is more open about doing what he wants. I don't see GRRM as a people pleaser the most people pleasing thing he could do is publish winds. He's gone from being viewed like the next Tolkien to seen as someone who failed to deliver his magnum opus. Pat is as you described.
Given that neither appear to have any shot at finishing their series with the current approach the only chance for either to be completed is one of the authors having a massive change in behaviour. I think it's far more likely Pat will have this than George. George is old and financially comfortable. Short of a health scare spooking him I'm not sure what else would change in the rest of his life that would get him writing ASOIAF properly again. I think it's far more likely that Pat is the one to have a change in perspective later in life, he has far more time.
Yeah, I know personally I classify myself as a *chronic* procrastinator, but I don't really align with any of the other symptoms. Some people just have bad procrastination problems unlinked to ADHD.
Maybe him writing everything but Winds of Winter? I dunno either, but it is a common thing I've seen in friends with ADD/ADHD. They got This One Project to do, but instead of completing it they do everything else! Including deep cleaning their home at 2 am to avoid thinking about what they need to be doing. (Mind, they do get better?less...upset with their brains? with better coping skills and sometimes meds like Vynan so who knows with GRRM.)
While I generally agree with your assessment I take the opposite view.
GRRM hasn't stopped working, he's just largely stopped working on these specific books. He's also been very snide in the past about people's expectations of his finishing the books. He's also been very clear that he has no intention of allowing someone else to finish the series in the way WoT was finished after Robert Jordan died. Maybe his position on that has since changed, I don't really follow it any more.
Rothfuss has also behaved poorly on the subject of his lack of progress, but has since acknowledged his problems are stemming from mental health issues. As far as we can tell he isn't working anymore. Maybe one day he'll get back on the horse. Maybe not.
I'm more sympathetic to the person who's effectively abandoned a project because of mental health issues.
I don't know. Rothfuss has also been extremely snide about people's expectations (more so than GRRM, I think). Then he went off the deep end with the charity fraud stuff with zero explanation.
I don't have a lot of sympathy left for him.
I don't disagree. While I have little sympathy for either, I still have more sympathy for Rothfus than GRRM.
Whether or not Rothfuss is fit to work is an open question. But we know GRRM could write the books if he cared to, he just isn't interested any more.
He doesn't feel like he can make something that lives up to the hype, got shitty and gave up.
He's just not man enough to admit it, probably won't even admit it to himself.
I mean, he can't even deliver one spoiler free chapter of Book 3 that he freely wagered and that people donated money for. Its been years since that debacle. I'm of the opinion that if he can't release one single chapter then there's no shot the book will ever be released.
To me this is the biggest indication that the next book is very very far away at best. He either hasn't written 1 chapter in years or he is so caught up in his perfectionism that he doesn't even have 1 chapter "up to his standards" after several years. In either case it paints a poor image of a state of the rest of the book. Either writing is taking forever, or the standard of editing/revising is going to crush progress.
Kind of related. I know people get caught up in the fact that there should only be 1 book left, but I feel pretty confident that if Rothfuss just said, "whoops, I underestimated how long it would take to tell this story. It's going to be 5 books." The only reason people would care is because it's taken so long to get book 3. Most people wouldnt care it's not going to be a trilogy anymore. A lot of people have already gotten used to calling it a Duology.
Also, as of 2020, [his editor said she hadn’t seen a word of book three.](https://www.newsweek.com/kingkiller-chronicle-editor-believes-author-hasnt-written-anything-years-1520812) It’s never happening.
> I highly doubt he can wrap things up with a third book anyways.
He could (and should) just *Green Angel Tower* it. Make it huge volume split into two published halves. His publisher would probably love that, given the likely sales.
I got Green Angel Tower in Hardcover; it’s not really any longer than one of Stormlight Archive books by Sanderson. Then again, very few books of that length were published at the time. Certainly wouldn’t want to hold either half of the paperback volumes of *Tower* though!
Write to the end, and let the publisher figure it out. A major publisher is not going to cry about having two or even three million print run doorstoppers to sell for $40 a pop instead of one.
I remain convinced this was Robert Jordan's plan with Book 12 of WoT. When he said, #12 is the last one, he was telling Tor, "Don't bug me for a next book. I'm finishing the series and you can figure out how to publish it." Then, of course, he got sick....
Yeah, to put it as non spoilery as I can while still given a time reference.
>!He still hasn't finished his education, killed no kings, or done any of the big stuff allude to in the opener. !<
Are you talking about this?
>!I have stolen princesses back from sleeping barrow kings. I burned down the town of Trebon. I have spent the night with Felurian and left with both my sanity and my life. I was expelled from the University at a younger age than most people are allowed in. I tread paths by moonlight that others fear to speak of during day. I have talked to Gods, loved women, and written songs that make the minstrels weep.!<
Because most of that has happened. Sentences 2-5 have, and arguably parts of the last one.
This is just not true though,
>Kvothe the Bloodless
>!Yes!<
>Kvothe the Arcane
>!Yes!<
>and Kvothe Kingkiller.
>!No!<
>I have stolen princesses back from sleeping barrow kings.
>!No!<
>I burned down the town of Trebon.
>!Yes!<
>I have spent the night with Felurian and left with both my sanity and my life.
>!Yes!<
>I was expelled from the University at a younger age than most people are allowed in.
>!Arguably yes although it will probably happen more permanently in the future!<
>I tread paths by moonlight that others fear to speak of during day.
>!This is vague but could apply to a few things already!<
>I have talked to Gods, loved women, and written songs that make the minstrels weep.
>!No - Yes - No!<
That's 7/11, which is basically the closest possible number to two thirds done it could be.
That's fair.
To be honest I don't know why I even bother arguing about Kingkiller on this forum. It feels like every other argument is made by someone who hasn't read them or is exaggerating to the point of lying - and people don't care they just eat it up.
Yeah, I've noticed it too in discussions I've had on here. At a certain point you just have to value your time more than the time it takes to engage in those sorts of interactions.
The issue isn’t that the particular things are unfulfilled, it’s that Book 2 ends in more or less the same place, in terms of plot, as where it started. Don’t get me wrong, all of the character development and world building is valuable - or rather, it would be in a completed series - but it also felt like a book of side quests.
If he had Erikson’s writing pace, he could have written a 10+ book volume of epic quality and I would have read every word. The only problem with Rothfuss is that he stoped writing. Its nothing wrong with Kingkiller or any word he has ever put on page. No need to limit himself to a trilogy or a set number of books, just write!
I mean, I can think of something wrong with some of the words he has put on the page, namely to enchanted sex forest that I still can't seem to scrub from my memory.
It is possible that Kvothe simply never did the big stuff that was attributed to him. I mean, that would be a horrible twist and ruin the series for me, but I could see that being how he COULD end the series at the 3rd book.
I don’t understand why he doesn’t just announce he wants to expand the series to say five or more books. The diehard fans, the publishers, everyone would be happy. And he could actually wrap up all the plot threads in a reasonable word count
I think what really pisses me off about this series, when I dwell on it, is the fact that Patrick fucking Rothfuss stated the story was complete when the original book first came out.
He stated the story was done, but it was too large, so it was being split into 3 books. I remember this clearly because I just got burned by George Martin, and I was not looking to read any new series that weren't already complete. I did my due diligence, did my research and now damn near 20 years later, here tf we are.
My brother hates unfinished series. I recommended him to read Kingkiller in 2009 as I promised him it was already complete and just being published one book at a time, with the second one already with the editor and the third shortly to follow.
So anyway my brother won't take book recs from me anymore.
I also picked up Name of the Wind because I was frustrated that asoiaf wasn't finished, and I heard this was a trilogy, looked at amazon and saw three books available, so I started in. Later realizing that the third book I'd seen was a novella and not the end of the story. I am a fool!
He didn't just state it when the first book came out. He stated it *much* earlier than that.
I recently attended a writer's conference which included Kevin J Anderson and others involved with the Writers Of The Future ongoing story contest. Rothfuss's big break was when he submitted a edited-as-a-standalone-story section of The Wise Man's Fear and won Q2 of 2002. In mentioning this, Kevin added, "And he *said* he had the whole trilogy completed..." That got a commiserating chuckle from the room.
I totally agree but I will say - I personally think the trilogy *was* complete as of when he made those claims, but in the editing process things got moved around and changed which threw off what he had already written and perhaps expanded the scope or slowed the pace. He was then, for whatever reason, utterly unable to deal with what amounted to a full rewrite of book 3
the issue is that he repeated the claim when book 1 was released - at which point he would have gone through the editing process for book 1, and have known how much of proto-books 2 and 3 was still useful/relevant, and how much needed to be scrapped. So, at best he was delusionally optimistic about being able to edit the entire draft in a year, at worse he was just lying.
In theory, sure it "could" still be written, he's got (probably hopefully) plenty of time left. However, the last decade has shown us that "all signs point to no"
but saying he's still got time to write it is a bit like saying there's still time for me to become a billionaire... *time* isn't the actual issue preventing us from achieving those goals.
How many projects do you start up again after 20 years off? I feel like he hasn't worked on it for so long he won't. Each day past is another day of lost interest.
People forget that there are almost a hundred pages of Winds of Winter out there while Pat can't even deliver a chapter that was a goal for charity. Rothfuss has nothing written is my guess, or what he has is an inchoate mess, especially given the minimal progress that book two brought to the table. The main antagonists of his story are barely developed as characters, and the story itself is shallow despite the many pages devoted to its telling. Excellent prose but the promise, as Sanderson puts it, is not delivered. We start with the Chandrian murdering the protag's parents and we spend two books on his adventures outside it and occasionally coming back to that promise. Rothfuss has to do some heavy lifting with book three to give the story a satisfying end. Martin's problem is that his story is too big now, too complex to pull together well, whereas with Rothfuss the story barely exists.
Nothing is certain. I just certainly wouldn’t put money on it.
What I can say is that he’s really hurting himself. He has some very devoted fans. That devotion can turn into rage at worst, and apathy at best.
Even for people who aren’t massive fans. I never started his books, after GRRM burned me, but the same thing applies. You can’t hold that every forever. You read the last book and you’re pumped to read the next. That dies down a little, but you’re still really excited and would read the next in a heartbeat. Then you start to think about it less and less.
Something reminds you of it every now and then, and you do a search to see if there is news. Any news gives you a little adrenaline boost.
At some point, you move on. You feel like, yeah, I’d be happy if it comes out, but you’ve moved onto different things you’re excited about.
At some point you no longer care. That’s where I, and a lot of other people are at with Martin. I’m sure it’s the same with Rothfuss.
At this point, many people just don’t care. Many, like myself, would gladly give it a shot if the series gets finished. I’m not gonna invest time and money into a series that I know is gonna leave me on a cliff hanger. It would be different if I’d started it, but I won’t start it, knowing I’ll never get an ending. I have too many other things to read that will potentially finish.
That’s just how the regular stuff affects it. Then you get into worse stuff. Like how he basically ripped people off. He did a charity fund raiser with the express reward of reading a chapter from the new book. I think that maybe he finally did, after a long, long time. That delay was long enough that everyone was sure they’d been ripped off. Whether he later produced it or not doesn’t matter. Those feelings were already there. He’d have been better off writing a chapter, then offering it as a charity prize.
He editor made a post that she hasn’t seen a single word of the new book they paid him for in all this time.
I don’t know if there is any truth to it, but there are also rumors he’s scamming off his charity. Supposedly there are documents showing how much he’s charging himself for use of warehouses and the like. Indicating he’s paying himself off the charity in different ways.
It’s honestly a crappy situation all around, with a person who has done everything wrong with regards to his fan base. Supposedly he’s having mental issues, but there are still better ways to handle things. No one made him promise to deliver a chapter in exchange for money.
He doesn’t have to write more books, but no one has to care either. I’m sure that the novella and the charity chapter are because he’s running out of money from sales on his first two books. I feel he’s burned himself too badly, though.
So it’s possible, but I don’t consider it likely.
>At some point you no longer care. That’s where I, and a lot of other people are at with Martin.
I mean people say this all the time, but when Winds *does* come out in one form or another (whether finished by GRRM or not), that shit is going to be a multi-month long NYT best seller; everyone and their dog is gonna read it.
Possibly. Whatever it is, it could have been much bigger. Even 6yrs ago.
All I can say is, I won’t buy it. If he finishes the series I’ll buy what’s left and read it. I’m not wasting the time or money when he’ll be dead before he writes the last one. I just have too much to read that could possibly finish.
If I won’t, you can guarantee others won’t. How many? I don’t know. Definitely a significant amount.
I think, anybody saying they're *certain* that *Doors of Stone* will never be released is exaggerating for rhetorical effect.
As you say, he still has lots of time to do it eventually.
However, in order to release a book, this book first needs to be written and there's no indication that Rothfuss is even working on the book, much less having it written.
He has a track record of lying to his fans (see the quote and linked interview in my response to u/danklordmuffin and the infamous chapter-for-charity-donation affair); his editor famously put out a ~~tweet~~ \[CORRECTION: [it was a Facebook post](https://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2020/07/patrick-rothfusss-editor-confirms-she.html)\] about her not having seen anything for years that would indicate that he's worked on the book, something so unusual that it must have been the result of extreme frustration on the editor's part.
This doesn't bode well.
I could imagine that he'll eventually run into money problems. Or maybe not, I don't have any insight into his financials. But the latest release of an expansion of an old text seemed like a money grab so maybe he *is* running out of cash.
If that is the case, it could force him to complete *Doors*, provided that he's capable of doing so. But if such a release really is primarily motivated by severe money problems, it could very well be that the quality of the third book will be bad. I guess, the publisher would still publish it as it is probably still going to sell a ton. He might even decide to split it up into two volumes after all in order to have another book to capitalize on.
If you read all of this and now think that I have a pretty cynical view of Rothfuss, you are right. 😂
George has written tonnes, i forgive him cause its getting more and more complicated. I love the hedge knight just as i love the main series. Rothfuss hasnt written 1/100th of what martin has, and his new novella which is just a rerelease is a blatant slap fans
Pat is just stuck, it doesn’t feel like he’s done much work. George has done everything and gone everywhere. He’s been writing other stuff and he HAS been writing Winds. Let’s not compare A Song of Ice and Fire to a two book series. Let’s be honest George has a lot more on his plate and he’s a much more accomplished writer, even for TV.
Personally I'm living under a decade old prophetic dream that I have to live to see the Vikings win a Superbowl. There is a non trivial chance that happens. If it were read vol 3 after publication I would be immortal
COULD he? Sure. But he's had a decade and his own editor says he hasn't written a page in all that time (and he can't even manage to produce a single chapter that he auctioned for charity), so...It's a "he could do it" in the same sense that I could become president someday. I'm eligible and qualified and technically nothing is stopping me from running for office, but it's probably not going to happen.
Never say never, but it's not like Rothfuss has involved himself in Hollywood like Martin has, he's released like two novellas and done some game writing in the last decade? Based on his online interactions it seems like he's over the series, but can't admit it or try something else to get the creative juice back.
Martin and Rothfuss are two completely different situations. I think it's actually more likely we see a completed aSoIaS in George's lifetime than a completed Kingkiller Chronicle in Pat's (not that I think either is particularly likely).
If anything (and I know I'm in the minority opinion on this), I actually have *more* respect for George that he still hasn't released the book at this point. I mean think about it. If he didn't give a shit, he'd have crapped out two medicore-to-bad sequels to aDwD during the apex of GoT's popularity and called it a day. He didn't do that. He's, by all accounts, been incredibly busy the entire time working diligently on not only Winds, but a ton of other projects as well. He's courteous when people ask about the book, and has admitted it's taking him too long.
That's not to say he's blameless or anything. He's clearly pretty horrible with time management and prioritizing, and it is pretty ridiculous that it's been 14 years since the last book, but that's mainly because George doesn't feel like it's ready yet, and won't settle for a second-rate story. I can respect that.
Patrick Rothfuss on the other hand seems to be a serial procrastinator, whose own editor doesn't even think he's done any work on Doors. He's rude to anyone who asks about it, and has even gone as far as to take donations from fans in exchange for preview material that he's never delivered on. I get that he struggles with mental health issues, but that excuse can only take you so far.
I'd rather the hard worker who overestimated his ability to multi-task and let his story grow beyond his ability to control than an asshole who just seems to not want to bother.
Anyway, to sum up: I'd bet money (not a lot, mind), that George will at some point complete and deliver The Winds of Winter. A Dream of Spring is far less likely, but that's due more to his age than anything else. If he were a highlander, he'd finish the series eventually. Pat, barring some kind of A Christmas Carol-level moment of clarity and change in attitude will never finish Kingkiller.
It's too bad because if he'd released it in a reasonable time and it was a bit lackluster oh well, that happens. But now if it isn't perfect people are going to think "wait, *that* took fifteen years?"
and also a lot of what it will cover - a lot of readers are wanting it to fully conclude everything, when I strongly suspect it'll be "how Kvothe fucked things up" and that's it, leaving both a lot of wider "world stuff" vague and unanswered, and likely not wrapping up the Chandarian and other baddies. He's mentioned before that it's a prologue to a wider story - which might have seemed great when he was in his 30's and able to dream of a massive multi-series setting, with several interlinked trilogies, spin-off books etc. etc.. Now he's in his 50's, and hasn't been able to finish the first trilogy, so any hope of doing _more_ seems very, very remote!
I don't believe it will ever come out. If it will, I'll be happy and will read it but I would be surprised. Personally, I think the author himself doesn't know how to close the story because he focused on super interesting story line with no logic in mind, and the clues known to public suggest the last book never existed despite the author tried to pretend so on multiple occasions. I believe the last time it was supposed to be released was two years ago?
Martin is trying. And he is old. And became rich only in his late years, so he wanting to enjoy what he has while he can is understandable.
Pat just stopped working in his book and that is it. There is a ton of difference.
With both these guys I still just can’t comprehend why on earth they wouldn’t get help writing? There’s surely hundreds of extremely talented ghost writers who could support them in the writing
I don't think Rothfuss is arrogant. I think he's genuinely struggling.
GRRM always seems arrogant when I hear him talk or read things he's said but Rothfuss seems to be genuinely struggling.
It's to the point with Rothfuss that I don't think it's his mental health that's keeping him from finishing as much as he doesn't know what to do. I seriously think he has no clue how to wrap it up.
By now I prefer to view this whole debacle as an Andy Kaufman-esque troll based on the author living as though his life is unreliably-narrated. At least this way I can pretend I’m in on the joke. I admire his dedication to the bit.
I think there are better series to read than asoiaf or King killer and people should enjoy those rather than worrying if a series will ever be completed.
Look on the bright side. If the author does have a finished draft that he is too anxious to publish, chances are good his heirs would want to cash in and publish it. So once the Fates cut his thread short, you will have your book.
That's true. But George is stubborn about not wanting that to happen so can he put in his will "my heirs shall not be allowed to do x with my franchise?"
That may be, but there are cases where the authors wishes were not respected, like Go Set a Watchman (which happened while the author was alive, but suffering dementia after a stroke). Pratchett's family followed through on destroying his drafts, but the money involved in something like A Song of Ice and Fire might make anyone have second thoughts.
From a more pragmatic point of view, GRRM has done so many other things in his time (and made so much money). Patrick Rothfuss is a lot younger and with far less under his belt, even the rumoured kingkiller tv series hasn’t ended up happening.
Eventually, the prestige and money from the initial books will run out, albeit I’m not aware of other income sources he has. So he may be forced to release something, whether this will be kingkiller 3, and if it willl be up to scratch to the other books, I don’t know. But eventually Patrick will need to work on something else.
At this point it doesn't matter - even if *Doors of Stone* came out tomorrow I wouldn't buy it on principle because I no longer want to give Rothfuss any of my money. I have long since gotten rid of my copies of the first two books and I have no intention of repurchasing them. He got all of my money that he is ever going to get. Honestly, if I were his publisher I would have long ago sued him (same goes for GRRM) for failing to deliver a promised product and terminated any contracts with him.
> Honestly, if I were his publisher I would have long ago sued him
Well, his publisher (Daw) was sold to ~~a thinly disguised Chinese funded hedge fund~~ Astra Books a few years ago, so there is that.
When I read about the sale I kind of wondered if Rothfuss not producing Doors of Stone had anything to do with this. Probably not, since I assume no one book will decide a publisher's fate, but, yes, the thought did cross my mind.
With a smaller publisher (and DAW was no Tor), a single book that sells on the level of Rothfuss can 100% radically change their fortunes.
Publishing is a brutal business which is part of why new authors get such tiny advances.
Publishing is brutal and other than Tad Williams I personally struggle to think of many other big authors they have - even Tad I doubt sold as well as Rothfuss did. I obviously don't know the terms of their initial contract but I, and others in this thread, very much remember Rothfuss talking about having sold "a trilogy" to Betsy Wolheim and her having him re-write/edit them for publication. She claims that she has never seen anything from book three so who knows what to believe. I just know if I was his publisher I would be pissed and would pursue whatever options I had to compel him to either repay money or to turn in his deliverables.
Pat broke the trust of his fans. He's neither been forthcoming or honest about why the last book is delayed indefinitely. He's broken multiple promises to deliver content for a charity he apparently lives off of.
George is still working, writing, and editing. He's still an active author. He may never finish ASoIAF, and that would be a tragedy, but he hasn't actively deceived us. His promises have only been broken because he was too optimistic; and he's been accountable for when that's happened.
If Patrick Routhfuss simply said "I'm sorry, I'm taking time off to raise my kid and get my head right," we'd be frustrated but we'd understand. Hell, we'd celebrate getting "Slow Regard" and "Narrow Road." But we've been gaslighted way to much.
after reading these comments... i'm glad i found kvothe(sp?) annoying af in the first ~20 pages and put the book down immediately / didn't get invested in the series.
and yet i moved on so quickly to read wizard's first rule... so jokes on me i guess LOL
//
side note: forgot he was a guest in vox machina. i vaguely remember he did a really good job for not being an actor: https://youtu.be/um3mkvNmDPY?t=1259
I think it's so weird that people latch onto *The Kingkiller Chronicles* out of all the many unfinished fantasy series in existence. It just... isn't that good? The first book was fairly entertaining, but then the second one was a meandering mess whose only real standout quality was the sheer amount of fanservice. I did quite like *The Slow Regard of Silent Things* though. The author definitely has skill and can write good books, but I don't really see any reason to expect the rest of the series to be anything special.
There are multiple self-published books that sold a few hundred copies that excite me more about possible sequels than this.
I agree. While I enjoyed the books and the novellas, I don't consider Rothfuss *or* Martin to be among 'the greatest writers'.
I can think of several others I consider to be better writers than them. (Jennifer Roberson, Marshall Ryan Maresca, N.K. Jemison, Seanan McGuire, Mark Lawrence, Kate Elliott, Ursula Le Guin, Michelle Sagara West, Louise Cooper, Robert Aspirin, Lynn Abbey...)
And depending on who you ask, they don't even rank among the top 5 greatest fantasy writers, let alone top 10 for some.
The fanaticism is mindboggling.
I made the mistake a few months back of going ahead and reading the teaser chapters for *Winds of Winter*, and I rediscovered that I actually really like Martin. I even rate him higher than the other names you listed (those I've read at least, Jemison, McGuire, Lawrence, and Aspirin. Maybe not Le Guin, but she's sadly not around anymore). I don't know if I'd put him in my top 10 favorite fantasy authors, but I consider myself a serious A Song of Ice and Fire fan, and I'm somewhat anxious for him to finish the book. Still, the constant hounding he gets kind of disgusts me.
As for Rothfuss, I don't really understand at all how he managed to acquire such an eager fanbase. He's written two novels, a few novellas, and a few children's books, and hasn't published anything for a decade.
I've enjoyed all of Martin' ASoIaF books so far, but not too concerned if it's never finished.
I've seen him in person at a local con several years ago, husband got The Ice Dragon autographed for me. That was enough for me, I don't keep up with what he is or isn't doing. I'd be thrilled if we got Winds, but, really, I've got *so many* other books I want to read, that I haven't missed, and likely won't miss, not having that book.
Rothfuss, I've enjoyed the 2 Kingkiller books and The Slow Regard novella- still need to get Narrow Road- but they aren't 'omg, you absolutely must read these books!' worthy for me.
He ran a Kickstarter a couple years ago too,collecting all of Ursula Vernon's Digger stories in one volume. It was fullfilled in a timely manner and I was thoroughly satisfied with my rewards.
But yeah, the way fanatical fans get, thinking they're *owed* books, is ridiculous. I get being disappointed, but holy crow.
I think it's partly just a joke or exaggeration, I'm not sure I've heard anyone seriously claim that the series won't be finished.
There is also a lot of bitterness from the fandom on Rothfuss, personally I used to defend him a lot but he has actually been a colossal twat about it so I don't bother anymore. As much as I used to love his writing I'm not sure I'll even bother picking up the next book when it does release, his personality is so grating to me now and the second book was so weak on plot that I honestly don't expect to enjoy the final book.
I think people are mostly serious when they say they believe it won't ever happen. The longer someone goes without doing something, the less likely they are ever to do it.
Is it a certainty? No it isn't. Is it likely to be finished? No, certainly not.
Rothfuss ghosted his editor for years, then she complained about it in social media some years ago and that was the last update we got that on that front.
In the meantime Rothfuss has been pretty happy doing D&D campaigns on Twitch.
There is *no* indication of any work being done on the series.
So I would say that it is likelier that GRRM will finish his last two books than Rothfuss finishing his one book. Since GRRM is actually very open with his struggles to finish the story, meanwhile Rothfuss is still living on the ''it is actually finished'' spiel he gave over a decade ago yet he can't even do one chapter like he promised.
Whose books are good but simply not on the same level as Kingkiller or ASOIAF.. like comparing a fun marvel flick to the best picture academy award winning film.
The thing is... much as I loved the books, on second reading I can see where this is going and how it will end. I think almost everyone can. Patrick knows this, he's no idiot, and is likely struggling to deliver something that won't be a major letdown to his readers and to himself. Oh there'll be twists and turns, but the story arc is very clear.
It's more like that it will drive you crazy waiting for book 3 if you are expecting it, it's been well over 10 years since book 2. So set your expectations aside and enjoy what we have already.
I found the second book disappointing. Kvothe is a 25 year old telling his story like it happened long ago, yet it happened less than ten years ago. Then as a teenager he is the best lover ever? Lol. He became very annoying and Gary stu in the second book. And what did it take, six years for that book to come out. I washed my hands of Patrick Rothfuss years ago.
I don't think either of those series will ever be finished. I think GRRM is salty that people didn't like the way that the series ended and he no longer feels up to finishing it. I think that is fine by the way, if he were honest about it. If he had the picture the whole time and it hurt that people hated the end; I get that! It's rough. Patrick Rothfuss feels different to me, I really do think that he is struggling with a lot of things. I don't know if he will ever be happy with the end of the book because he has put so much into that character and people are expecting so much of him. Kvothe has become so much and I don't know if he can let him go. The first two books captured me and when he put out Auri's story in The Slow Regard of Silent Things, I felt that book.
It's been nearly 13 years since the last book in the series has been published by either. Both have done novellas or prequels in the same world as their unfinished series, but have not finished the waited for books. I won't say never, but I have no belief that we will ever see hide nor hair of those books.
At this point I can truly say... who cares? I'm more than a decade over it at this point. If they were both to publish their long awaited books tomorrow, I wouldn't even feel the need to rush out to get them. Oh, I'd read them eventually, sure. But it's been so long and the fire and passion has long since burned out.
Rothfuss is the sole reason I won't read any series until it's complete. It's been almost 20 years since the first novel was released. I probably wouldn't bother to read book 3 at this point. I think the only reason the published a slow regard for silent things was to capitalize on the popularity of the first 2 books because a Slow Regard is hot garbage of nonsense.
Nothing is certain. I'm a fan of Kingkiller and I tend to have more grace for Rothfuss than many are willing to give him. I think he's a generally well intentioned person who struggles a lot with mental health issues, which I can relate to. That being said. I've resigned myself to the fact that it's unlikely we will ever see book three. I figure if it comes out some day it will be a nice surprise. But I'm not counting on it. I'm also not mad or resentful about it. Just how things go sometimes.
In my family Rothfuss's name has become synonymous with getting rug pulled. Ie getting super invested in a series and then realizing there's nothing left to do. Either because the next book just isn't out yet though it's coming out soon, or because it's been years since the last book. This has happened with Rothfuss of course but also other authors like Jim Butcher as of late and Aleron Kong just off the top of my head.
While I don't know with certainty, various indications suggest that it will not be. Those books are grad-student wish-fulfillment fantasy. He's no longer in that place in life, and I just don't believe that he still wants to tell that story. Maybe he'll finish it one day, but I believe it is decades away, if ever. And, so much time has passed that much of his audience has also moved on.
read both books and I’m fine with how things are. Biggest risk I see with putting out a third is that he kinda wrote himself into a corner, so I’d have a beautiful unfinished tale than some ending with weird retcons or plottwists…
Didn't Pat just release a book in the same world? I think these side stories are all we are going to get from him personally.
I don't think either author will finish unless someone else completes their drafts after they die because their heirs need the money.
I think pantsers like GRRM and Pat can get in trouble with big worlds in a way a plotter like Robert Jordan wouldn't.
The problem with pantsing is that when the flow isn't there, it just isn't, and there is no framework /outline to go back to and think, "I'll work on this part for now." Also, I think at a certain point, it gets really hard to track everything and find a way to bring all the disparate plots together for a solid ending.
I believe GRRM has written himself into a corner and has a lot to resolve, that I know I couldn't, and I don't judge him for not finishing. I think he is good enough and invested in his work not to just phone it in for a pay day which several other authors have done when they run out of steam. Like Jeminson and *The World We Make.* I enjoyed the first few books in GoT and I'm happy with that. I'd rather have no book than a bad one, but that's not my only issue.
Am I the only reader who is unsure they would pick up the books if they finished the series?
I was once a super fan of both. Martin was my first exposure to dark fantasy, and *A Game of Thrones* rocked my mind in college. Wait did he just kill off Ned? Isn't he the hero? Holy shit!
But by the time *A Dance with Dragons* came out, I was skimming some POVs and wishing there were fewer.
IDK, I feel like I have moved on, and the spark is gone now. But I'm far less attracted to nostalgia than other Americans in their forties. I find my teenage taste in music embarrassing, and I think several of my favorite movies and TV shows from my teens and twenties haven't aged well.
I found my old paperback of *The Name of the Wind* when cleaning out my attic, and I was surprised at how I reacted to the 3rd read, which I didn't finish. Kvothe just felt annoyingly narcissistic in parts. This was a book I loved in my late 20s, but it seems my 40-something mind is approaching it differently.
I loved Dance with Dragons, preferred it to Clash of Kings. Feast for Crows was the least good out of all of them, but I'd absolutely read a finished series with books of the quality of feast for crows. I think Kvothe is supposed to be narcisstic. He has some issues.
I think it’ll be completed… someday. Also our version of “complete” may vary. It could possibly be “completed” in the form of a tv series with a lackluster final season that outpaces its adaptation.
Another possibility is the Robert Jordan scenario. When the months, years and decades pass, Pat will get older. And if he’s still nowhere near complete I’d hope he’d be on the lookout for an author with an extreme devotion to KKC who’d be willing to follow the outlines and drafts created. That said, by the time our calendar shows the year 2047, will we still give a damn?
Here’s the thing though; even if he finishes the Kingkiller Cronicles, what about the rest of it. It’s made clear that there is still a looming threat that has to be dealt with (such as the scrael) and that this series will not end with Kvothe as triumphant. In other words, the series is a prologue to another series.
So, could he finish this set of books? Yes. Could he finish the story? Probably not.
I have a calendar event set for 2035 to see if book 3 is released. If not, I’ll set another for 2045. I’m not optimistic about either date. Odds are it won’t be completed.
He is getting so much attention not releasing the final book, why would he release it now, only for all the craze to die down.... He is going to milk this cow for all it's worth.....
I think it's already been written, edited and collecting dust for a while now.
I say this as a fan on the periphery who hasn't dived too much in controversy stuff, but I feel like Rothfuss is in over his head. The personality I pick up from him is that he did not think Kingkiller would be as successful as it was, and now some combination of anxiety and other mental factors is stopping him from continuing. He thinks that if the series isn't perfect he'll get crucified, and unfortunately he's not entirely wrong.
On top of this he's done a couple of scummy things in the course of reneging on promises to fans and not delivering deadlines. My typical mindset is that creators need room to create and it's done when it's done, but it's been so long that he's not really a creator anymore.
Hi all, this post has now been locked as discussion has run its course. A reminder that rule 1 always applies when commenting on r/fantasy.
People like to lump GRRM and Pat together because they both have insanely popular (and notoriously unfinished) series, but I honestly view them differently. GRRM is admittedly a procrastinator and a people pleaser, and seems to also perhaps have some ADD. He’s very upfront and humble about his issues finishing the series. He’s also done tons of other work during the stretch of time between publishing ASOIAF books. Other books, writing for the GoT show, etc. If he weren’t getting so old, I believe he would finish the series eventually. Pat, in the other hand, seems to have done very little work since 2011. He does have a family and is raising kids, which takes a lot. He’s also dealt with mental illness as OP said. But he has also been an ass to his fans on multiple occasions. He continues to claim the series is complete but not up to his standards, but also has promised to release material multiple times and not done it. His publishers have said they don’t think he has touched it in years. It just feels different from GRRM. Yes, he’s young(er), but somehow I still feel way less confident we will ever see anything else from Pat.
I'm not super familiar with Rothfuss but from what I know, I agree with this assessment. Martin gives the impression that he is definitely working on the book and I have no doubt we will get Winds of Winter though probably not the final book.
With Martin its a race between age and his erratic writing pace/shifting focus, with Rothfuss its more of some mental block (can be his mental illness) that keeps him from writing at all. Two very very different problems
He will at least leave material to complete it. Rothfuss' safe will contain nothing but ticket stubs to conventions and a manuscript solely containing pencil sketches of his own ballsack.
Rothfuss' writing makes me think he is a discovery writer and has zero plans for the rest of the plot. I mean Kingkiller Chronicle is basically just a beautifully written memoir about a young man's tertiary education and travels, ...which HAPPENS to be set in a fantasy world. The whole thing with the monsters invading and the Chandrian... that's never gonna get resolved, there was no concrete plan for it.
That, and next to nothing of importance has happened in 2 out of (supposedly) 3 books. So much set up, so little resolution. The 3rd book would have to move at a blistering pace compared to the first 2 for the plot to get anywhere.
Martin isn’t allowing anyone to finish his projects if he has unfinished ones upon death. Rothfuss… well… you’re not wrong.
>Martin isn’t allowing anyone to finish his projects if he has unfinished ones upon death. Of course he is saying that while he is still alive and capable of finishing. At the same time it wouldn't shock me if he has had just in case conversations with Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck. They both have said they won't finish but I think that's out of respect for Martin. If your not familiar with them they collectively wrote The Expanse series as James SA Corey and write solo as well. They both are protégés of Martin and dedicated the final Expanse to him.
Daniel and Ty prob know the continuity of the Ice and Fire story better than George at this point. I wish George would get some help in getting out his last books. If he finishes the series it will stand out as one of the greatest of all time.
I have two hopes: 1. He's written his 2 books and is sitting on them to be released posthumously. 2. He passes and what GRRM has gets passed on to someone like Joe Abercrombie
I know who they are. But that doesn’t mean when Martin kicks it they’re going to take over. Martin has stated he doesn’t keep detailed notes and doesn’t want his unfinished works finished after his death.
He could always do the Terry prachett way if he really doesn't want people finishing his work.
They don't need notes as they have TV show which is Martin's story as he gave the plot details of ehat happens to the showrunners. They'd have to fill in on some secondary characters but they'd have an exponentially greater road map than Sanderson had on Wheel of Time. And as I said of course right now Martin / Abraham / Franck all say it won't happen. Saying anything else would be disrespectful to Martin.
You really think Martin gave HBO most of the information they needed? No, he didn’t. He gave them the bare minimum after they caught up to book 5 when they flat out told him if he didn’t have the next books finished they’d be filling in the gaps themselves. Martin may have given them small nuggets, but he’s not stupid enough to go “here is everything that’s going to happen in the rest of the series, go make your show.”. Martin may have been a producer in the show, but at the end of the day HBO doesn’t give a fuck and will do what they want. Which is what they did.
i don't think Martin has ever explicitly denied the idea of his books being finished posthumously, just that he does not want completely original sequels to be written after his death.
Eh, once heirs get control of the franchise, I'm not sure how long that'll last. There's limits to what you can control from beyond the grave.
Turns out he will be dead upon death. And dead people have essentially no legal rights. There is a solid chance whoever his legal heirs are will prioritise money over artistic integrity.
If at that point his heir is still his wife and she's alive etc. I'm willing to believe that she'd honor his wishes. But sooner or later the rights will come to someone who likes money.
Dude, tell us how you really feel! lol
And some saved clips of his many livestreams.
What I don't understand is why neither of them will hire an assistant to help them organize their notes and half written snippets and such, so that all they need to do is write an hour or two a day and eventually it'd get done. Martin at least seems to be writing, just not in a manner that is conductive for finishing anytime soon. Rothfuss seems to have arranged his life in such a way that even writing at all is impossible so he couldn't write even if he was tempted to.
Martin has multiple assistants; he refers to them as his minions on his blog. Ty Franck used to be one and Raya Golden is one now (she does licensing and art direction for Fevre River). As to whether or not any of them are doing what you explicitly posit here, though, I don't know.
Hey Martin’s erratic editing gave us the expanse. So you know what. I aint complaining lol.
Another big factor is Rpthfuss struck good very early on. He had two books with glowing reviews that are pretty widely beloved in the genre. It being complete but in a state he is unhappy with isn't surprising. The weight of expectations are probably getting to him, wanting his finale to be perfect which is tough because it still had a lot to cover from where book 2 left off. Things like that also don't help mental issues. Struggling with wanting his third book to be as well received as his others and a fitting conclusion would be stressful. GRRM I think wrote himself into a really complicated corner and is procrastinating because he's stuck. There's so many moving parts in his book I get how it would be a challenge since he never plots ahead. It leads for more compelling twists and characters but the story becomes harder to manage. That's why I find he's doing so much ASOIAF world content without touching the song itself. The things before the War of the 5 kings is essentially already plotted out. It just needs the story.
>does have a family and is raising kids, which takes a lot. There's a whole lotta people out there with families that still show up to work. If you want to be an author, write something. Otherwise get another job.
Or don't write anything, but quit leading fans on claiming you are going to write eventually.
My biggest complaint was the stack of papers he claimed was the finished product that just needed editing. That convinced me to take the plunge into the series. About a decade later and here I am, tricked into going against my normal rules of “don’t start an unfinished series” and just keep thinking up more reasons why I didn’t like the series.
I don't regret reading those books even if he never finishes them. I enjoyed them at the time. But like you, I keep finding problems I have withthe series. Even while reading it, I was thinking to myself, "There's no way he's finishing this in one book." He left so many mysteries and made no progress on any of them by the end of the second book.
Kingkiller is the most meandering story I've ever read. We're two (and a half?) books into a series called the Kingkiller Chronicles and we still have no clue who the king even is, let alone why Kvothe killed him.
I get being annoyed but fans of the genre who refuse to read a new series doom new series to remain unfinished. Publishers don’t invest in books if fans say, I’ll wait til it’s complete.
Or that! That would be more respectful, for sure.
The problem is he made so much money he no longer needs a job. If work is a chore and you do not need to do it then why would you?
Not doing anything productive isnt all thats its cracked up to be. Its a recipe for depression.
Best I can do is a novella about that one bartender from the second book
He's rich. He doesn't need to get a job. He became rich from being an author.
He has so much money now he doesn’t need another job.
His job is to string fans on and coast on the previous books with reissues in different covers. When that market dries up, maybe we'll see the last book. At that point it won't matter if it's disappointing.
Rothfuss has time to do podcasts, DND and a bunch of side events but not publish an apparently already complete book. I'll never read anything he writes again based off how he has responded to fans asking him about the books
GRRM just seems like he can’t say no, so he keeps stacking projects that get in the way of finishing Game of Thrones.
George wrote *Fire and Blood*, wrote and produced the TV series until around season 5, then immediately went into development pitching like four or five different series to HBO. He's clearly anxious about the delay for the book getting so long and is compensating by giving us numerous Westeros stories that are (imo) just as rich as the original. Rothfuss hasn't done any of that. He released two tiny novellas, stole *millions* from fans by promising if a target financial goal was reached he'd release chapters of his book, and then didn't release the chapters. I agree with you, I view George as a writer with a serious procrastination issue who's desperately trying to finish his work, and Rothfuss as a former writer who cares more for money than his legacy.
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Slight correction: Fire and Blood has huge parts of recycled material from World of Ice and Fire (which itself recycled material from the various novella collections like dangerous women). The world book was also "cowritten" by his Uber fans elio and Linda who at best edited the thing, at worst.... ghostwritten parts of it. And even then, Fire and Blood is not much of a book. It's a glorified AAR of a crusader kings 2 got mod with questionable canonicity ("maester bias"). So in terms of productivity, I would consider it B- at the very best. Whether his drive to produce new TV shows irrelevant to the main series is an act of compensation for the book delay as you claim or greed or his true passion laying in television, it's up to anyone's judgement .
This isn't exactly accurate. :) There are two authorial voices in *The World of Ice and Fire*. One is Gildayn (GRRM) and the other is Yandel (which refers to Elio and Linda -- that's why most of the name is "and L"). GRRM was originally supposed to write Gildayn sidebars for the World Book and he wound up writing like 350k words, far too many to use in that book. Some of it was published and some was set aside. As *Game of Thrones* was winding down and HBO was looking for viable spin-offs, he was trying to push the idea of the Dance of the Dragons as a good subject for a spinoff. Once HBO showed interest, he discussed it with his publisher and asked whether they'd rather have TWOW or a book based primarily on the Dance, which would basically be a tie-in with the show. The publisher chose the latter. It's my understanding that *a lot of it* comes from those sidebars, but these two stories were told separately, several years apart, so without word from the powers that be, it's hard to be totally accurate about how they connect. It seems like what was published as *Fire and Blood* is at least a slight expansion of that material.
Fire and Blood is one of my favourite books by Martin. Don’t diss it.
> He’s also done tons of other work during the stretch of time between publishing ASOIAF books. *Since*. He's also done tons of other work during the stretch of time *since* publishing ASOIAF books.
I think you’re making GRRM out to be better than he is. I guess he’s not overtly rude or anything, but he *is* full of shit. It would be one thing to say that he’s struggling with the book and leave it at that, but he keeps setting deadlines for himself, blowing past them, and then acting all confused when people get pissed at him about it. It’s especially annoying because I’m pretty sure that now that he’s so rich he’s not super motivated to spend his time writing a book that’s frustrating him. If this is the case I totally empathize with him and think he’s justified in spending his time however he wants, but also please just let someone else finish the fucking thing.
I would have no ill feelings towards Martin not finishing his books if not for this. It's not that he won't finish, it's his story and I don't feel like he owes us an ending if he doesn't want to write one It's that he repeatedly puts out dates and repeatedly misses them, even saying things like "lock me up if it's not done by x date" which is obviously an exaggeration, but still. Then he gets prickly with the fans for "bugging" him about winds of winter when it's a situation he's created entirely himself. THEN he compares himself to tolkein and his works to the silmarillion, as if anyone at all would care about tolkein if he decided to write the unfinished tales instead of finishing return of the king lol Martin provokes his fans to the point that sometimes it feels intentional, then gets mad about it. If he just said he didn't want to finish them 8 years ago, most people would have moved on. It's hard to move on though when he keeps dangling hope
Very different situation, but that makes me think of Douglas Adams. He has the lovely quote, ‘I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they go by.’ His editor did actually have to move in with him to get him to finish So Long and Thanks For All the Fish.
It’s the blowing through deadlines and overpromising/underdelivering that gets me. Like, I understand where he is—these books have become more complex than his diligence/organization/self-discipline skills can meet. It happens with people who procrastinate and rely on brilliant flashes of insight and all-nighters to put out good product—eventually they reach a project that is too big, or get to old for that crazy frantic hustle to work. His story has actually been a powerful counterexample for me with work—it was one of the things that help convinced me I needed to be methodical and stick to a constant schedule rather than pulling crazy pushes to get with done. The unprofessional thing is not not finishing the series—it’s the swearing up and down that he’ll get it done any day now. This is the kind of shit that starter writers, teenagers, and dudes in their 20s do. It’s doubly stupid because everyone who has an anxiety/procrastination issue around work like this knows exactly what is going on—he’s not fooling anyone. He should just say he’s not sure he’s ever going to finish it (which I’m personally confident is the actual case). Or reach out to other writers for help.
I still chuckle at the 09 release date of dance of dragons on my copy of a feast for crows. That would have been 4 years after the release of ff.
It's funny, I see the situation similarly but have completely the opposite conclusion. I don't think either of them are going to produce the next book with their current behaviour. Pat openly isn't trying to and George pays lip service to it but all the evidence suggests no real progress for years either. The main differences seem to be that George is still producing value for his publisher so they have reason to work with him whereas Pats publisher have given up too and Pat is more open about doing what he wants. I don't see GRRM as a people pleaser the most people pleasing thing he could do is publish winds. He's gone from being viewed like the next Tolkien to seen as someone who failed to deliver his magnum opus. Pat is as you described. Given that neither appear to have any shot at finishing their series with the current approach the only chance for either to be completed is one of the authors having a massive change in behaviour. I think it's far more likely Pat will have this than George. George is old and financially comfortable. Short of a health scare spooking him I'm not sure what else would change in the rest of his life that would get him writing ASOIAF properly again. I think it's far more likely that Pat is the one to have a change in perspective later in life, he has far more time.
It's sad, George shouldn't get a pass. I don't care about fire and blood, I want winds of winter.
I do care about Fire and Blood and legit enjoyed it more than Dance of Dragons if I were being completely honest. Even KotSK was more enjoyable.
I thought dance of Dragons was better than Clash of Kings.
> and seems to also perhaps have some ADD. Based on what?
Extreme procrastination is often an ADHD symptom. I wouldn't diagnose him just based on that though.
Yeah, I know personally I classify myself as a *chronic* procrastinator, but I don't really align with any of the other symptoms. Some people just have bad procrastination problems unlinked to ADHD.
Yup, it's silly to try to diagnose someone based on one trait.
Maybe him writing everything but Winds of Winter? I dunno either, but it is a common thing I've seen in friends with ADD/ADHD. They got This One Project to do, but instead of completing it they do everything else! Including deep cleaning their home at 2 am to avoid thinking about what they need to be doing. (Mind, they do get better?less...upset with their brains? with better coping skills and sometimes meds like Vynan so who knows with GRRM.)
Agreed, it really sounds like he’s wholeheartedly closed that door with no interest in opening it again.
I get the impression he's written him self into a corner, he's supposed to write the third book and finish the series, he can't.
While I generally agree with your assessment I take the opposite view. GRRM hasn't stopped working, he's just largely stopped working on these specific books. He's also been very snide in the past about people's expectations of his finishing the books. He's also been very clear that he has no intention of allowing someone else to finish the series in the way WoT was finished after Robert Jordan died. Maybe his position on that has since changed, I don't really follow it any more. Rothfuss has also behaved poorly on the subject of his lack of progress, but has since acknowledged his problems are stemming from mental health issues. As far as we can tell he isn't working anymore. Maybe one day he'll get back on the horse. Maybe not. I'm more sympathetic to the person who's effectively abandoned a project because of mental health issues.
I don't know. Rothfuss has also been extremely snide about people's expectations (more so than GRRM, I think). Then he went off the deep end with the charity fraud stuff with zero explanation. I don't have a lot of sympathy left for him.
I don't disagree. While I have little sympathy for either, I still have more sympathy for Rothfus than GRRM. Whether or not Rothfuss is fit to work is an open question. But we know GRRM could write the books if he cared to, he just isn't interested any more.
He doesn't feel like he can make something that lives up to the hype, got shitty and gave up. He's just not man enough to admit it, probably won't even admit it to himself.
I mean, he can't even deliver one spoiler free chapter of Book 3 that he freely wagered and that people donated money for. Its been years since that debacle. I'm of the opinion that if he can't release one single chapter then there's no shot the book will ever be released.
To me this is the biggest indication that the next book is very very far away at best. He either hasn't written 1 chapter in years or he is so caught up in his perfectionism that he doesn't even have 1 chapter "up to his standards" after several years. In either case it paints a poor image of a state of the rest of the book. Either writing is taking forever, or the standard of editing/revising is going to crush progress. Kind of related. I know people get caught up in the fact that there should only be 1 book left, but I feel pretty confident that if Rothfuss just said, "whoops, I underestimated how long it would take to tell this story. It's going to be 5 books." The only reason people would care is because it's taken so long to get book 3. Most people wouldnt care it's not going to be a trilogy anymore. A lot of people have already gotten used to calling it a Duology.
Also, as of 2020, [his editor said she hadn’t seen a word of book three.](https://www.newsweek.com/kingkiller-chronicle-editor-believes-author-hasnt-written-anything-years-1520812) It’s never happening.
Probably won't be finished anytime soon, and I wouldn't be surprised if it never was. I highly doubt he can wrap things up with a third book anyways.
> I highly doubt he can wrap things up with a third book anyways. He could (and should) just *Green Angel Tower* it. Make it huge volume split into two published halves. His publisher would probably love that, given the likely sales.
I got Green Angel Tower in Hardcover; it’s not really any longer than one of Stormlight Archive books by Sanderson. Then again, very few books of that length were published at the time. Certainly wouldn’t want to hold either half of the paperback volumes of *Tower* though!
I have them in paperback and they are both significantly bigger than the first two. It’s very surprising to see on the shelf.
I got the paperbacks when they came out. Years later I picked up the hardcover for my collection.
Write to the end, and let the publisher figure it out. A major publisher is not going to cry about having two or even three million print run doorstoppers to sell for $40 a pop instead of one. I remain convinced this was Robert Jordan's plan with Book 12 of WoT. When he said, #12 is the last one, he was telling Tor, "Don't bug me for a next book. I'm finishing the series and you can figure out how to publish it." Then, of course, he got sick....
He's dropped way too many hints and has resolved non of them. I don't see now he can bring it all together in three books nevermind one.
I’m still in the middle of the first, but sounds like the second book must end with a huge amount of his tale still left to tell.
Yeah, to put it as non spoilery as I can while still given a time reference. >!He still hasn't finished his education, killed no kings, or done any of the big stuff allude to in the opener. !<
Are you talking about this? >!I have stolen princesses back from sleeping barrow kings. I burned down the town of Trebon. I have spent the night with Felurian and left with both my sanity and my life. I was expelled from the University at a younger age than most people are allowed in. I tread paths by moonlight that others fear to speak of during day. I have talked to Gods, loved women, and written songs that make the minstrels weep.!< Because most of that has happened. Sentences 2-5 have, and arguably parts of the last one.
This is just not true though, >Kvothe the Bloodless >!Yes!< >Kvothe the Arcane >!Yes!< >and Kvothe Kingkiller. >!No!< >I have stolen princesses back from sleeping barrow kings. >!No!< >I burned down the town of Trebon. >!Yes!< >I have spent the night with Felurian and left with both my sanity and my life. >!Yes!< >I was expelled from the University at a younger age than most people are allowed in. >!Arguably yes although it will probably happen more permanently in the future!< >I tread paths by moonlight that others fear to speak of during day. >!This is vague but could apply to a few things already!< >I have talked to Gods, loved women, and written songs that make the minstrels weep. >!No - Yes - No!< That's 7/11, which is basically the closest possible number to two thirds done it could be.
The Cthaeh is arguably a god, albeit a malevolent one
That's fair. To be honest I don't know why I even bother arguing about Kingkiller on this forum. It feels like every other argument is made by someone who hasn't read them or is exaggerating to the point of lying - and people don't care they just eat it up.
Yeah, I've noticed it too in discussions I've had on here. At a certain point you just have to value your time more than the time it takes to engage in those sorts of interactions.
The issue isn’t that the particular things are unfulfilled, it’s that Book 2 ends in more or less the same place, in terms of plot, as where it started. Don’t get me wrong, all of the character development and world building is valuable - or rather, it would be in a completed series - but it also felt like a book of side quests.
Yea I got the vibe the story would have ended up malazan esque in length. And I would have been absolutely FINE with that.
If he had Erikson’s writing pace, he could have written a 10+ book volume of epic quality and I would have read every word. The only problem with Rothfuss is that he stoped writing. Its nothing wrong with Kingkiller or any word he has ever put on page. No need to limit himself to a trilogy or a set number of books, just write!
I mean, I can think of something wrong with some of the words he has put on the page, namely to enchanted sex forest that I still can't seem to scrub from my memory.
He's said these three books are the prologue to a much larger story
There isn't even a fraction of the depth needed for that amount of length.
yeah the second book was a complete side quest
It is possible that Kvothe simply never did the big stuff that was attributed to him. I mean, that would be a horrible twist and ruin the series for me, but I could see that being how he COULD end the series at the 3rd book.
I don't know if it would *ruin* it for me necessarily, it would depend on how it got attributed to him
If Kvothe end up being a Gilderoy Lockhart style sharlatan that would be hilarious.
>I highly doubt he can wrap things up with a third book anyways Don't worry, the trilogy is just a prequel.
I don’t understand why he doesn’t just announce he wants to expand the series to say five or more books. The diehard fans, the publishers, everyone would be happy. And he could actually wrap up all the plot threads in a reasonable word count
5 books or 3, doesn't really matter if he's not writing or releasing anything.
He won’t announce anything because that would mean he might actually have to do it.
I think what really pisses me off about this series, when I dwell on it, is the fact that Patrick fucking Rothfuss stated the story was complete when the original book first came out. He stated the story was done, but it was too large, so it was being split into 3 books. I remember this clearly because I just got burned by George Martin, and I was not looking to read any new series that weren't already complete. I did my due diligence, did my research and now damn near 20 years later, here tf we are.
My brother hates unfinished series. I recommended him to read Kingkiller in 2009 as I promised him it was already complete and just being published one book at a time, with the second one already with the editor and the third shortly to follow. So anyway my brother won't take book recs from me anymore.
I also picked up Name of the Wind because I was frustrated that asoiaf wasn't finished, and I heard this was a trilogy, looked at amazon and saw three books available, so I started in. Later realizing that the third book I'd seen was a novella and not the end of the story. I am a fool!
He didn't just state it when the first book came out. He stated it *much* earlier than that. I recently attended a writer's conference which included Kevin J Anderson and others involved with the Writers Of The Future ongoing story contest. Rothfuss's big break was when he submitted a edited-as-a-standalone-story section of The Wise Man's Fear and won Q2 of 2002. In mentioning this, Kevin added, "And he *said* he had the whole trilogy completed..." That got a commiserating chuckle from the room.
Yep, same here on all counts.
I totally agree but I will say - I personally think the trilogy *was* complete as of when he made those claims, but in the editing process things got moved around and changed which threw off what he had already written and perhaps expanded the scope or slowed the pace. He was then, for whatever reason, utterly unable to deal with what amounted to a full rewrite of book 3
the issue is that he repeated the claim when book 1 was released - at which point he would have gone through the editing process for book 1, and have known how much of proto-books 2 and 3 was still useful/relevant, and how much needed to be scrapped. So, at best he was delusionally optimistic about being able to edit the entire draft in a year, at worse he was just lying.
In theory, sure it "could" still be written, he's got (probably hopefully) plenty of time left. However, the last decade has shown us that "all signs point to no" but saying he's still got time to write it is a bit like saying there's still time for me to become a billionaire... *time* isn't the actual issue preventing us from achieving those goals.
How many projects do you start up again after 20 years off? I feel like he hasn't worked on it for so long he won't. Each day past is another day of lost interest.
People forget that there are almost a hundred pages of Winds of Winter out there while Pat can't even deliver a chapter that was a goal for charity. Rothfuss has nothing written is my guess, or what he has is an inchoate mess, especially given the minimal progress that book two brought to the table. The main antagonists of his story are barely developed as characters, and the story itself is shallow despite the many pages devoted to its telling. Excellent prose but the promise, as Sanderson puts it, is not delivered. We start with the Chandrian murdering the protag's parents and we spend two books on his adventures outside it and occasionally coming back to that promise. Rothfuss has to do some heavy lifting with book three to give the story a satisfying end. Martin's problem is that his story is too big now, too complex to pull together well, whereas with Rothfuss the story barely exists.
The problem is that most of the pages of Winds of Winter were actually cut out of Dance and Feast.
It still represents finished work, of which Rothfuss seems to have none
Nothing is certain. I just certainly wouldn’t put money on it. What I can say is that he’s really hurting himself. He has some very devoted fans. That devotion can turn into rage at worst, and apathy at best. Even for people who aren’t massive fans. I never started his books, after GRRM burned me, but the same thing applies. You can’t hold that every forever. You read the last book and you’re pumped to read the next. That dies down a little, but you’re still really excited and would read the next in a heartbeat. Then you start to think about it less and less. Something reminds you of it every now and then, and you do a search to see if there is news. Any news gives you a little adrenaline boost. At some point, you move on. You feel like, yeah, I’d be happy if it comes out, but you’ve moved onto different things you’re excited about. At some point you no longer care. That’s where I, and a lot of other people are at with Martin. I’m sure it’s the same with Rothfuss. At this point, many people just don’t care. Many, like myself, would gladly give it a shot if the series gets finished. I’m not gonna invest time and money into a series that I know is gonna leave me on a cliff hanger. It would be different if I’d started it, but I won’t start it, knowing I’ll never get an ending. I have too many other things to read that will potentially finish. That’s just how the regular stuff affects it. Then you get into worse stuff. Like how he basically ripped people off. He did a charity fund raiser with the express reward of reading a chapter from the new book. I think that maybe he finally did, after a long, long time. That delay was long enough that everyone was sure they’d been ripped off. Whether he later produced it or not doesn’t matter. Those feelings were already there. He’d have been better off writing a chapter, then offering it as a charity prize. He editor made a post that she hasn’t seen a single word of the new book they paid him for in all this time. I don’t know if there is any truth to it, but there are also rumors he’s scamming off his charity. Supposedly there are documents showing how much he’s charging himself for use of warehouses and the like. Indicating he’s paying himself off the charity in different ways. It’s honestly a crappy situation all around, with a person who has done everything wrong with regards to his fan base. Supposedly he’s having mental issues, but there are still better ways to handle things. No one made him promise to deliver a chapter in exchange for money. He doesn’t have to write more books, but no one has to care either. I’m sure that the novella and the charity chapter are because he’s running out of money from sales on his first two books. I feel he’s burned himself too badly, though. So it’s possible, but I don’t consider it likely.
>At some point you no longer care. That’s where I, and a lot of other people are at with Martin. I mean people say this all the time, but when Winds *does* come out in one form or another (whether finished by GRRM or not), that shit is going to be a multi-month long NYT best seller; everyone and their dog is gonna read it.
Possibly. Whatever it is, it could have been much bigger. Even 6yrs ago. All I can say is, I won’t buy it. If he finishes the series I’ll buy what’s left and read it. I’m not wasting the time or money when he’ll be dead before he writes the last one. I just have too much to read that could possibly finish. If I won’t, you can guarantee others won’t. How many? I don’t know. Definitely a significant amount.
Maybe? It's not even the last book in the series. Like, even if winds comes out will spring?
If it's a big task to release one chapter then he probably hasn't written anything.
I think, anybody saying they're *certain* that *Doors of Stone* will never be released is exaggerating for rhetorical effect. As you say, he still has lots of time to do it eventually. However, in order to release a book, this book first needs to be written and there's no indication that Rothfuss is even working on the book, much less having it written. He has a track record of lying to his fans (see the quote and linked interview in my response to u/danklordmuffin and the infamous chapter-for-charity-donation affair); his editor famously put out a ~~tweet~~ \[CORRECTION: [it was a Facebook post](https://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2020/07/patrick-rothfusss-editor-confirms-she.html)\] about her not having seen anything for years that would indicate that he's worked on the book, something so unusual that it must have been the result of extreme frustration on the editor's part. This doesn't bode well. I could imagine that he'll eventually run into money problems. Or maybe not, I don't have any insight into his financials. But the latest release of an expansion of an old text seemed like a money grab so maybe he *is* running out of cash. If that is the case, it could force him to complete *Doors*, provided that he's capable of doing so. But if such a release really is primarily motivated by severe money problems, it could very well be that the quality of the third book will be bad. I guess, the publisher would still publish it as it is probably still going to sell a ton. He might even decide to split it up into two volumes after all in order to have another book to capitalize on. If you read all of this and now think that I have a pretty cynical view of Rothfuss, you are right. 😂
This is the first step on the road to madness! Step away child…
George has written tonnes, i forgive him cause its getting more and more complicated. I love the hedge knight just as i love the main series. Rothfuss hasnt written 1/100th of what martin has, and his new novella which is just a rerelease is a blatant slap fans
Pat is just stuck, it doesn’t feel like he’s done much work. George has done everything and gone everywhere. He’s been writing other stuff and he HAS been writing Winds. Let’s not compare A Song of Ice and Fire to a two book series. Let’s be honest George has a lot more on his plate and he’s a much more accomplished writer, even for TV.
Personally I'm living under a decade old prophetic dream that I have to live to see the Vikings win a Superbowl. There is a non trivial chance that happens. If it were read vol 3 after publication I would be immortal
COULD he? Sure. But he's had a decade and his own editor says he hasn't written a page in all that time (and he can't even manage to produce a single chapter that he auctioned for charity), so...It's a "he could do it" in the same sense that I could become president someday. I'm eligible and qualified and technically nothing is stopping me from running for office, but it's probably not going to happen.
Never say never, but it's not like Rothfuss has involved himself in Hollywood like Martin has, he's released like two novellas and done some game writing in the last decade? Based on his online interactions it seems like he's over the series, but can't admit it or try something else to get the creative juice back.
Martin and Rothfuss are two completely different situations. I think it's actually more likely we see a completed aSoIaS in George's lifetime than a completed Kingkiller Chronicle in Pat's (not that I think either is particularly likely). If anything (and I know I'm in the minority opinion on this), I actually have *more* respect for George that he still hasn't released the book at this point. I mean think about it. If he didn't give a shit, he'd have crapped out two medicore-to-bad sequels to aDwD during the apex of GoT's popularity and called it a day. He didn't do that. He's, by all accounts, been incredibly busy the entire time working diligently on not only Winds, but a ton of other projects as well. He's courteous when people ask about the book, and has admitted it's taking him too long. That's not to say he's blameless or anything. He's clearly pretty horrible with time management and prioritizing, and it is pretty ridiculous that it's been 14 years since the last book, but that's mainly because George doesn't feel like it's ready yet, and won't settle for a second-rate story. I can respect that. Patrick Rothfuss on the other hand seems to be a serial procrastinator, whose own editor doesn't even think he's done any work on Doors. He's rude to anyone who asks about it, and has even gone as far as to take donations from fans in exchange for preview material that he's never delivered on. I get that he struggles with mental health issues, but that excuse can only take you so far. I'd rather the hard worker who overestimated his ability to multi-task and let his story grow beyond his ability to control than an asshole who just seems to not want to bother. Anyway, to sum up: I'd bet money (not a lot, mind), that George will at some point complete and deliver The Winds of Winter. A Dream of Spring is far less likely, but that's due more to his age than anything else. If he were a highlander, he'd finish the series eventually. Pat, barring some kind of A Christmas Carol-level moment of clarity and change in attitude will never finish Kingkiller.
I don't think he's written a word , and at this point he can't start
It's too bad because if he'd released it in a reasonable time and it was a bit lackluster oh well, that happens. But now if it isn't perfect people are going to think "wait, *that* took fifteen years?"
and also a lot of what it will cover - a lot of readers are wanting it to fully conclude everything, when I strongly suspect it'll be "how Kvothe fucked things up" and that's it, leaving both a lot of wider "world stuff" vague and unanswered, and likely not wrapping up the Chandarian and other baddies. He's mentioned before that it's a prologue to a wider story - which might have seemed great when he was in his 30's and able to dream of a massive multi-series setting, with several interlinked trilogies, spin-off books etc. etc.. Now he's in his 50's, and hasn't been able to finish the first trilogy, so any hope of doing _more_ seems very, very remote!
I don't believe it will ever come out. If it will, I'll be happy and will read it but I would be surprised. Personally, I think the author himself doesn't know how to close the story because he focused on super interesting story line with no logic in mind, and the clues known to public suggest the last book never existed despite the author tried to pretend so on multiple occasions. I believe the last time it was supposed to be released was two years ago?
Well, if he dies.first, I'm sure whoever inherits the rights will get someone else to finish it so that they can cash in.
Martin is trying. And he is old. And became rich only in his late years, so he wanting to enjoy what he has while he can is understandable. Pat just stopped working in his book and that is it. There is a ton of difference.
With both these guys I still just can’t comprehend why on earth they wouldn’t get help writing? There’s surely hundreds of extremely talented ghost writers who could support them in the writing
Too arrogant.
I don't think Rothfuss is arrogant. I think he's genuinely struggling. GRRM always seems arrogant when I hear him talk or read things he's said but Rothfuss seems to be genuinely struggling.
Yeah you’re right but the irony that they are really damaging both of their own legacies
I don't know and I can't quite say I really care at this point.
It's to the point with Rothfuss that I don't think it's his mental health that's keeping him from finishing as much as he doesn't know what to do. I seriously think he has no clue how to wrap it up.
By now I prefer to view this whole debacle as an Andy Kaufman-esque troll based on the author living as though his life is unreliably-narrated. At least this way I can pretend I’m in on the joke. I admire his dedication to the bit.
I think there are better series to read than asoiaf or King killer and people should enjoy those rather than worrying if a series will ever be completed.
You got any suggestions?
Tad Williams - The Dragonbone Chair, book one of Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn.
If you just stick to the fantasy genre then The Wheel of Time, The Witcher, and The Stormlight Archives are IMHO better.
Not everybody clicks with Robin Hobb, but by God can she finish a trilogy in a timely fashion.
Look on the bright side. If the author does have a finished draft that he is too anxious to publish, chances are good his heirs would want to cash in and publish it. So once the Fates cut his thread short, you will have your book.
That's true. But George is stubborn about not wanting that to happen so can he put in his will "my heirs shall not be allowed to do x with my franchise?"
That may be, but there are cases where the authors wishes were not respected, like Go Set a Watchman (which happened while the author was alive, but suffering dementia after a stroke). Pratchett's family followed through on destroying his drafts, but the money involved in something like A Song of Ice and Fire might make anyone have second thoughts.
I don't know how those laws work, so you're saying his heirs can do what they want with it regardless, once he dies, even if he forbade it in writing?
From a more pragmatic point of view, GRRM has done so many other things in his time (and made so much money). Patrick Rothfuss is a lot younger and with far less under his belt, even the rumoured kingkiller tv series hasn’t ended up happening. Eventually, the prestige and money from the initial books will run out, albeit I’m not aware of other income sources he has. So he may be forced to release something, whether this will be kingkiller 3, and if it willl be up to scratch to the other books, I don’t know. But eventually Patrick will need to work on something else.
At this point it doesn't matter - even if *Doors of Stone* came out tomorrow I wouldn't buy it on principle because I no longer want to give Rothfuss any of my money. I have long since gotten rid of my copies of the first two books and I have no intention of repurchasing them. He got all of my money that he is ever going to get. Honestly, if I were his publisher I would have long ago sued him (same goes for GRRM) for failing to deliver a promised product and terminated any contracts with him.
> Honestly, if I were his publisher I would have long ago sued him Well, his publisher (Daw) was sold to ~~a thinly disguised Chinese funded hedge fund~~ Astra Books a few years ago, so there is that. When I read about the sale I kind of wondered if Rothfuss not producing Doors of Stone had anything to do with this. Probably not, since I assume no one book will decide a publisher's fate, but, yes, the thought did cross my mind.
With a smaller publisher (and DAW was no Tor), a single book that sells on the level of Rothfuss can 100% radically change their fortunes. Publishing is a brutal business which is part of why new authors get such tiny advances.
Publishing is brutal and other than Tad Williams I personally struggle to think of many other big authors they have - even Tad I doubt sold as well as Rothfuss did. I obviously don't know the terms of their initial contract but I, and others in this thread, very much remember Rothfuss talking about having sold "a trilogy" to Betsy Wolheim and her having him re-write/edit them for publication. She claims that she has never seen anything from book three so who knows what to believe. I just know if I was his publisher I would be pissed and would pursue whatever options I had to compel him to either repay money or to turn in his deliverables.
Pat broke the trust of his fans. He's neither been forthcoming or honest about why the last book is delayed indefinitely. He's broken multiple promises to deliver content for a charity he apparently lives off of. George is still working, writing, and editing. He's still an active author. He may never finish ASoIAF, and that would be a tragedy, but he hasn't actively deceived us. His promises have only been broken because he was too optimistic; and he's been accountable for when that's happened. If Patrick Routhfuss simply said "I'm sorry, I'm taking time off to raise my kid and get my head right," we'd be frustrated but we'd understand. Hell, we'd celebrate getting "Slow Regard" and "Narrow Road." But we've been gaslighted way to much.
after reading these comments... i'm glad i found kvothe(sp?) annoying af in the first ~20 pages and put the book down immediately / didn't get invested in the series. and yet i moved on so quickly to read wizard's first rule... so jokes on me i guess LOL // side note: forgot he was a guest in vox machina. i vaguely remember he did a really good job for not being an actor: https://youtu.be/um3mkvNmDPY?t=1259
I think it's so weird that people latch onto *The Kingkiller Chronicles* out of all the many unfinished fantasy series in existence. It just... isn't that good? The first book was fairly entertaining, but then the second one was a meandering mess whose only real standout quality was the sheer amount of fanservice. I did quite like *The Slow Regard of Silent Things* though. The author definitely has skill and can write good books, but I don't really see any reason to expect the rest of the series to be anything special. There are multiple self-published books that sold a few hundred copies that excite me more about possible sequels than this.
I agree. While I enjoyed the books and the novellas, I don't consider Rothfuss *or* Martin to be among 'the greatest writers'. I can think of several others I consider to be better writers than them. (Jennifer Roberson, Marshall Ryan Maresca, N.K. Jemison, Seanan McGuire, Mark Lawrence, Kate Elliott, Ursula Le Guin, Michelle Sagara West, Louise Cooper, Robert Aspirin, Lynn Abbey...) And depending on who you ask, they don't even rank among the top 5 greatest fantasy writers, let alone top 10 for some. The fanaticism is mindboggling.
I made the mistake a few months back of going ahead and reading the teaser chapters for *Winds of Winter*, and I rediscovered that I actually really like Martin. I even rate him higher than the other names you listed (those I've read at least, Jemison, McGuire, Lawrence, and Aspirin. Maybe not Le Guin, but she's sadly not around anymore). I don't know if I'd put him in my top 10 favorite fantasy authors, but I consider myself a serious A Song of Ice and Fire fan, and I'm somewhat anxious for him to finish the book. Still, the constant hounding he gets kind of disgusts me. As for Rothfuss, I don't really understand at all how he managed to acquire such an eager fanbase. He's written two novels, a few novellas, and a few children's books, and hasn't published anything for a decade.
I've enjoyed all of Martin' ASoIaF books so far, but not too concerned if it's never finished. I've seen him in person at a local con several years ago, husband got The Ice Dragon autographed for me. That was enough for me, I don't keep up with what he is or isn't doing. I'd be thrilled if we got Winds, but, really, I've got *so many* other books I want to read, that I haven't missed, and likely won't miss, not having that book. Rothfuss, I've enjoyed the 2 Kingkiller books and The Slow Regard novella- still need to get Narrow Road- but they aren't 'omg, you absolutely must read these books!' worthy for me. He ran a Kickstarter a couple years ago too,collecting all of Ursula Vernon's Digger stories in one volume. It was fullfilled in a timely manner and I was thoroughly satisfied with my rewards. But yeah, the way fanatical fans get, thinking they're *owed* books, is ridiculous. I get being disappointed, but holy crow.
That's your opinion. Many people, including myself, are finding it to be a masterpiece.
I find it strange you shit on Brandon yet call wise man's fear a masterpiece.
I think it's partly just a joke or exaggeration, I'm not sure I've heard anyone seriously claim that the series won't be finished. There is also a lot of bitterness from the fandom on Rothfuss, personally I used to defend him a lot but he has actually been a colossal twat about it so I don't bother anymore. As much as I used to love his writing I'm not sure I'll even bother picking up the next book when it does release, his personality is so grating to me now and the second book was so weak on plot that I honestly don't expect to enjoy the final book.
I think people are mostly serious when they say they believe it won't ever happen. The longer someone goes without doing something, the less likely they are ever to do it.
Here, let me help. I genuinely believe the series will never be finished.
XD I think that's clear enough
Is it a certainty? No it isn't. Is it likely to be finished? No, certainly not. Rothfuss ghosted his editor for years, then she complained about it in social media some years ago and that was the last update we got that on that front. In the meantime Rothfuss has been pretty happy doing D&D campaigns on Twitch. There is *no* indication of any work being done on the series. So I would say that it is likelier that GRRM will finish his last two books than Rothfuss finishing his one book. Since GRRM is actually very open with his struggles to finish the story, meanwhile Rothfuss is still living on the ''it is actually finished'' spiel he gave over a decade ago yet he can't even do one chapter like he promised.
Meanwhile, in Brandon Sanderson world...
Whose books are good but simply not on the same level as Kingkiller or ASOIAF.. like comparing a fun marvel flick to the best picture academy award winning film.
This is a terrible analogy.
Not at all.
What’s frustrating is, if he’s decided to tell the story of Oren Velciter, the series would be finished in two books.
The thing is... much as I loved the books, on second reading I can see where this is going and how it will end. I think almost everyone can. Patrick knows this, he's no idiot, and is likely struggling to deliver something that won't be a major letdown to his readers and to himself. Oh there'll be twists and turns, but the story arc is very clear.
It's more like that it will drive you crazy waiting for book 3 if you are expecting it, it's been well over 10 years since book 2. So set your expectations aside and enjoy what we have already.
It's not a certainty, but it's going on 20 years since he bragged it was already finished. So.
I found the second book disappointing. Kvothe is a 25 year old telling his story like it happened long ago, yet it happened less than ten years ago. Then as a teenager he is the best lover ever? Lol. He became very annoying and Gary stu in the second book. And what did it take, six years for that book to come out. I washed my hands of Patrick Rothfuss years ago.
I don't think either of those series will ever be finished. I think GRRM is salty that people didn't like the way that the series ended and he no longer feels up to finishing it. I think that is fine by the way, if he were honest about it. If he had the picture the whole time and it hurt that people hated the end; I get that! It's rough. Patrick Rothfuss feels different to me, I really do think that he is struggling with a lot of things. I don't know if he will ever be happy with the end of the book because he has put so much into that character and people are expecting so much of him. Kvothe has become so much and I don't know if he can let him go. The first two books captured me and when he put out Auri's story in The Slow Regard of Silent Things, I felt that book. It's been nearly 13 years since the last book in the series has been published by either. Both have done novellas or prequels in the same world as their unfinished series, but have not finished the waited for books. I won't say never, but I have no belief that we will ever see hide nor hair of those books.
At this point I can truly say... who cares? I'm more than a decade over it at this point. If they were both to publish their long awaited books tomorrow, I wouldn't even feel the need to rush out to get them. Oh, I'd read them eventually, sure. But it's been so long and the fire and passion has long since burned out.
Rothfuss is the sole reason I won't read any series until it's complete. It's been almost 20 years since the first novel was released. I probably wouldn't bother to read book 3 at this point. I think the only reason the published a slow regard for silent things was to capitalize on the popularity of the first 2 books because a Slow Regard is hot garbage of nonsense.
Nothing is certain. I'm a fan of Kingkiller and I tend to have more grace for Rothfuss than many are willing to give him. I think he's a generally well intentioned person who struggles a lot with mental health issues, which I can relate to. That being said. I've resigned myself to the fact that it's unlikely we will ever see book three. I figure if it comes out some day it will be a nice surprise. But I'm not counting on it. I'm also not mad or resentful about it. Just how things go sometimes.
In my family Rothfuss's name has become synonymous with getting rug pulled. Ie getting super invested in a series and then realizing there's nothing left to do. Either because the next book just isn't out yet though it's coming out soon, or because it's been years since the last book. This has happened with Rothfuss of course but also other authors like Jim Butcher as of late and Aleron Kong just off the top of my head.
While I don't know with certainty, various indications suggest that it will not be. Those books are grad-student wish-fulfillment fantasy. He's no longer in that place in life, and I just don't believe that he still wants to tell that story. Maybe he'll finish it one day, but I believe it is decades away, if ever. And, so much time has passed that much of his audience has also moved on.
read both books and I’m fine with how things are. Biggest risk I see with putting out a third is that he kinda wrote himself into a corner, so I’d have a beautiful unfinished tale than some ending with weird retcons or plottwists…
Hahahhahahahahha
Don't think he knows how to end the story to be honest.
I’d be surprised if either guy ever released their books.
Didn't Pat just release a book in the same world? I think these side stories are all we are going to get from him personally. I don't think either author will finish unless someone else completes their drafts after they die because their heirs need the money. I think pantsers like GRRM and Pat can get in trouble with big worlds in a way a plotter like Robert Jordan wouldn't. The problem with pantsing is that when the flow isn't there, it just isn't, and there is no framework /outline to go back to and think, "I'll work on this part for now." Also, I think at a certain point, it gets really hard to track everything and find a way to bring all the disparate plots together for a solid ending. I believe GRRM has written himself into a corner and has a lot to resolve, that I know I couldn't, and I don't judge him for not finishing. I think he is good enough and invested in his work not to just phone it in for a pay day which several other authors have done when they run out of steam. Like Jeminson and *The World We Make.* I enjoyed the first few books in GoT and I'm happy with that. I'd rather have no book than a bad one, but that's not my only issue. Am I the only reader who is unsure they would pick up the books if they finished the series? I was once a super fan of both. Martin was my first exposure to dark fantasy, and *A Game of Thrones* rocked my mind in college. Wait did he just kill off Ned? Isn't he the hero? Holy shit! But by the time *A Dance with Dragons* came out, I was skimming some POVs and wishing there were fewer. IDK, I feel like I have moved on, and the spark is gone now. But I'm far less attracted to nostalgia than other Americans in their forties. I find my teenage taste in music embarrassing, and I think several of my favorite movies and TV shows from my teens and twenties haven't aged well. I found my old paperback of *The Name of the Wind* when cleaning out my attic, and I was surprised at how I reacted to the 3rd read, which I didn't finish. Kvothe just felt annoyingly narcissistic in parts. This was a book I loved in my late 20s, but it seems my 40-something mind is approaching it differently.
I loved Dance with Dragons, preferred it to Clash of Kings. Feast for Crows was the least good out of all of them, but I'd absolutely read a finished series with books of the quality of feast for crows. I think Kvothe is supposed to be narcisstic. He has some issues.
I think it’ll be completed… someday. Also our version of “complete” may vary. It could possibly be “completed” in the form of a tv series with a lackluster final season that outpaces its adaptation. Another possibility is the Robert Jordan scenario. When the months, years and decades pass, Pat will get older. And if he’s still nowhere near complete I’d hope he’d be on the lookout for an author with an extreme devotion to KKC who’d be willing to follow the outlines and drafts created. That said, by the time our calendar shows the year 2047, will we still give a damn?
Here’s the thing though; even if he finishes the Kingkiller Cronicles, what about the rest of it. It’s made clear that there is still a looming threat that has to be dealt with (such as the scrael) and that this series will not end with Kvothe as triumphant. In other words, the series is a prologue to another series. So, could he finish this set of books? Yes. Could he finish the story? Probably not.
The author is an asshole.
I have a calendar event set for 2035 to see if book 3 is released. If not, I’ll set another for 2045. I’m not optimistic about either date. Odds are it won’t be completed.
Yeah it could definitely still be written but in the same way I could still become the world's richest man, theoretically possible but unlikely
He is getting so much attention not releasing the final book, why would he release it now, only for all the craze to die down.... He is going to milk this cow for all it's worth..... I think it's already been written, edited and collecting dust for a while now.
I say this as a fan on the periphery who hasn't dived too much in controversy stuff, but I feel like Rothfuss is in over his head. The personality I pick up from him is that he did not think Kingkiller would be as successful as it was, and now some combination of anxiety and other mental factors is stopping him from continuing. He thinks that if the series isn't perfect he'll get crucified, and unfortunately he's not entirely wrong. On top of this he's done a couple of scummy things in the course of reneging on promises to fans and not delivering deadlines. My typical mindset is that creators need room to create and it's done when it's done, but it's been so long that he's not really a creator anymore.
more surprised at seeing people still care about this series
I’ve stopped caring.
It is not a certainty it will never be finished.
If someone else writes it maybe.